Recently at Reason.tv: Johan Norberg vs. Naomi Klein

 

In Defense of Global Capitalism author Johan Norberg explains just how off-base Naomi Klein's critique of free markets and Milton Friedman is in this 9-minute interview with Reason.tv's Michael C. Moynihan. (Hint: She's so far off that her work should be in the science fiction section of your local mega-corporate bookstore).

Read Norberg's withering review of Klein's The Shock Doctrine from the October issue of Reason.

And read a 2003 Reason interview with Norberg here.

Comments

[classwarrior]

If you're going to advertise this as Norberg vs. Klein, shouldn't she be there to defend her views?

[Liefiti]

Let's see, bad ideas lead to bad consequances. Gee, that seems to be happening right now. Jesus, this Norberg interview sounds so late- period Soviet. Rule one: Denigrate any critic of the System.

[Lefiti]

Moynihan actually has the gall to accuse Klein of cherry picking evidence? Unbefucking believable. Reason has raised cherry picking of evidence to almost comsic levels!

[libertymike]

Lefiti-

Methinks that your love of totalitarianism has now reached "almost comsic {sic} levels."

[Lefiti]

libertymike

Totalitarianism is the bastard child of dogmatic utopianism and--at least in the last century--rigid economic determinism. So kiss my ass, you loony market fundamentalist.

[Lefiti]

Screw you, you libertarian fucktards!!1! I am the real Lefiti!

[SIV]

Happy Kwanzaa!
Today's Principle: b>Ujima

[SIV]

Happy Kwanzaa!
Today's Principle: b>Ujima

Ujima (Collective Work and Responsibility)
To build and maintain our community together and make our brother's and sister's problems our problems and to solve them together.

[libertymike]

Nick-

Off topic-Are we going to see any of Reason's scribes weigh in on the latest Zionist mass murder?

[David E. Gallaher]

Is the Creationist Museum just south of Cincinnati helping the cause of atheism?
Is Naomi Klein helping the cause of Reasonoids?
Tune in tomorrow...

"The glass is half full" Ruthless

[Elemenope]

Off topic-Are we going to see any of Reason's scribes weigh in on the latest Zionist mass murder?

MNG did make some noise about that yesterday, so it seems there is an audience for such material...

Supply, meed demand.

[Elemenope]

If you're going to advertise this as Norberg vs. Klein, shouldn't she be there to defend her views?

Also, this. It's one thing to call it "Norberg's critique of Klein's book", and quite another to bill it as a debate.

Ugh, I just touched classwarrior's post. I feel somewhat unclean.

[Daze]

The headline implies that Norberg and Klein will be debating each other on air. Now *that* would have been worth watching.

[BDB]

Didn't know you were so "multi-cultural", SIV.

[BDB]

"Daze | December 28, 2008, 12:30pm | #
The headline implies that Norberg and Klein will be debating each other on air. Now *that* would have been worth watching."

Yes. We need this, please.

[Kolohe]

Good piece.

Mr. Norberg looks to be the first guest to have figured out how to be comfortable in those chairs you use.

[ed]

Happy Kwanzaa!
Today's Principle: b>Ujima

OK, now you're just making b>shit up.

[Elemenope]

OK, now you're just making b>shit up.

Get thee to a reference. It's about half-way down the article.

[ed]

Crap. Four more to go!

---------------SPOILER ALERT!---------------

Ujamaa (Cooperative Economics) To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit from them together.

Nia (Purpose) To make our collective vocation the building and developing of our community in order to restore our people to their traditional greatness.

Kuumba (Creativity) To do always as much as we can, in the way we can, in order to leave our community more beautiful and beneficial than we inherited it.

Imani (Faith) To believe with all our heart in our people, our parents, our teachers, our leaders and the righteousness and victory of our struggle.

There. Kwanzaa Guy can stop now.

[SIV]

Ujima Today ! Ujamaa Tomorrow! Kwanzaa Forever!

[Elemenope]

Holidays: Much Ado About Drinking

[MNG]

libertymike
It's scandalous. If this were Hugo Chavez taking over a shopping mall Moynihan would be postin' and pantin' like a wild man. Oh the inhumanity (note: Chavez's actions on the shopping mall were certainly wrong imo)!

Israel uses American made F-16's to slaughter 200 people, many of whom certainly had nothing to do with the admittedly egregious acts of Hamas (a bunch of thugs btw), and ho hum, nothing to see here, no libertarian implications.

There are people on Reason who go ballistic at the thought of limiting the association rights of folks to try to address past injustices inflicted on large groups because such measures will at times fall upon folks who have no connection to the past harms. But here we have a case of the IDF using FIGHTER JETS to bomb the crap out of an area of thousands to get back at the actions of a relatively small group of thugs. Collective punishment anyone? But no word. Sheesh.

As if no economic freedoms are implicated in the Israeli occupation: no economic embargoes (preventing folks who want to trade from trading), no restrictions on free movement of labor, no forcible collection of "taxes for the Palestinians", etc.

Oh yeah, and then there is that little libertarian thing about bodily integrity which kind of gts disrupted when an F-16 drops a bomb on you and your kids.

I'm not trying to act like this matter is not complicated. Hamas is a bunch of thugs which is dropping crude mortar and rockets into Israel, there is all this history, Israel is in many ways a model nation compared to many of its neighbors governments.

But killing 200 people with f*cking f-16s? WTF?

[Elemenope]

MNG --

There may be something of a ratcheting effect going on, with people (of nearly all stripes) after having heard stories of this theme for decades, becoming fairly inured to the mention of terrible things happening in the Middle East, because terrible things *always seem to happen* in the Middle East.

In point of comparison, if F-16s were doing bombing runs in Northern Ireland, or Taiwan, that would be big fucking news which would dominate the cycle for months. But in the Middle East it is status quo, and so, importantly, it is technically not news in the sense that is important to publications attempting to grab readership.

Not that I think that Reason shouldn't cover it. Bombers strafing apartment complexes is much higher on the "shit one should care about" list than two-bit thugs seizing shopping malls, IMO.

[BDB]

Would it make you feel any better if we sold the Palestinians F-16s and Apaches, too? I'm actually all for it. Let's get our economy stimulated from arms sales!

[BDB]

Look, if two people can't learn to share one piece of land, it's going to end in a thermonuclear war sooner or later. I'd just wish they'd get it over with already.

[MNG]

SIV is a traditionalist. The traditions he reveres were created so long ago they are protected, as fluffy mentioned, by the "hoary mists of the past." But Kwanzaa is new and its goofy origins in plain sight for all to see, and its the holiday of a group without much power in this nation historically, so hey, it's funny to make fun of it. It's not the traditions of his tribe, which are sacred, but another tribe, which of course is inferior because its different and new.

If you've ever been to Georgia you know that there is still a lot of racial animosity from "back in the day." At least making fun of black holidays is better than how white Georgians used to take out their racial frustrations on blacks:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html

[BDB]

MNG, SIV is serious in his Kwanzaa love. He is doing it to piss of Moyinihan. He likes all holidays, and Moyinihan has it out for Kwanzaa.

[MNG]

BDB
There is no failure of people to share the land they've lived on for centuries. When the state of Israel was founded the majority of Jews there were from Europe (this has changed as of late btw, but that's really neither here nor there). It's incredible when you think about it: it would be like joe and a bunch of Irish Americans moving back to Ireland and proclaiming a nation in the middle of the island. It would actually be worse than that, as the Zionists had not been in that area for about 20 freaking centuries! And the Western nations, who had treated the Jews so poorly throughout history and so probably had some rightful feeling of guilt, played a large part in making this happen and making it stick. It's truly bizarre and such an anomaly with 20th century history its amazing.

But hey, that was decades ago. What has me riled up is that this nation used freaking warplanes to hit crowded civilian centers to "get" a smaller group of thus who were firing crude rockets at them. This would be like me shooting at my step kids to get them to stop leaving the fridge door open. And guess what, we are complicit in this madness.

[MNG]

BDB
That's bullshit, he's being too cute by half.
Yes, I did see Moynihan's ugly article the other day.

[BDB]

What, you think if the Palestinians had the hardware they wouldn't be carpet bombing Tel-Aviv? Please.

[BDB]

Yeah, you see I don't care about how Israel was founded. The Arabs want it back, and the Israelis aren't going to give it to them. The Israelis want the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem, and the Arabs aren't giving it up. So, endless conflict. Sorry.

[MNG]

Well, for one thing the Palestianians didn't move into New York City and declare an ethnic state.

But yes I think had they the capability some Palestinian groups would do some awful things. Heck, they do many bad things without the hardware. I think it would be nice if neither had the hardware. And I think we should jump up and down and scream and take action when thugs like Hamas do things that leave countless citizens dead.

But we should do the same when Israel does this kind of thing. We give them an amazing amount of military, financial and diplomatic support and they misbehave in inhumane ways all the time. And we don't do jack. I want people in the US to start getting mad so we can be more moral and intelligent in our support.

[BDB]

Until they learn to share, that is. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. Now they have to share, or have war until one or the other is eliminated by force.

[BDB]

I don't think any foreign state should be getting military aid. But I don't think Israel is particularly evil. I mean, there's Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan, and Egypt, and Saudi Arabia etc...we give money to regimes that do things much worse than Israel. Why single them out?

[MNG]

"Yeah, you see I don't care about how Israel was founded."

Well, it doesn't matter as to whether this bombing is moral or not. It's not no matter how its founded.

But I do think things like the founding have some weight in thinking about the "big" and current issues.
BTW-the Israelis HAVE Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank. They occupy them. The residents just are not happy about it.

[BDB]

Modern war is inherently immoral. That doesn't mean there aren't times when it shouldn't be used (there are things worse and more immoral than war), but it's going to be evil. A lesser evil sometimes but it will be evil, and innocent people will die.

"BTW-the Israelis HAVE Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank. "

They don't have Gaza anymore, and they have bits and piece of the latter. The Palestinians can force them out, or negotiate with the Israelis, or they will have war forever. I don't really care much for either side.

[MNG]

"But I don't think Israel is particularly evil."

Neither do I. In fact, as I mentioned they are in many ways relatively better than many of the nations around them, many of which we support.

"Why single them out?"

I'm mentioning them at this moment because they happen to have just slaughtered 200 people.

They also get way more aid than those other nations you mention (Egypt gets quite a bit because of a deal we did with them concerning who now?).

[MNG]

Your nation has put one side at a decided disadvantage for decades now (rocks vs. F-16s for example). Too late to just throw up your hands and say "oh well, I don't care for neither side."
Gotta go see Operation Valkyrie now. Fingers crossed...

[BDB]

"They also get way more aid than those other nations you mention"

More than Saudia Arabia? KSA treats its women like dogshit, tortures dissidents, and cynically uses Islamic fundamentalism as a safety valve so all the anger in that sick society will be directed at the giant strawmen of Israel and the USA rather than their own despotic government. They get away with TONS. And we sell them just as many billions in weapons systems and aid as Israel.

[BDB]

MNG, Vietnam beat us with a two bit peseant army. Palestine can make life difficult enough for Israel that they leave the territories.

[zoltan]

Total U.S. aid to Saudi Arabia from 1946 through itstermination in 1975 amounted to $328.4 million, of which $295.8 million was military and$32.6 million was economic assistance. Approximately 20% of total aid was in the form ofgrants and 80% in loans, all of which have been repaid. A small IMET program of $22,000per year to help defray some expenses of sending Saudi officers to U.S. military serviceschools was resumed in FY2002 and increased slightly to $24,000 in 2003 and 2004; and$25,000 in 2005; $25,000 was requested bythe Administration for Saudi Arabia in FY2006.

[zoltan]

In comparison, this year Israel got 2.4b, Egypt 1.7b, Jordan 464m, Lebanon 580m, and Palestine 63.6m

I couldn't find good numbers on Saudi Arabia really.

[Kolohe]

libertymike, It's scandalous

Or, it could be that it's Sunday of a nominal four day weekend in between two weeks that for a good part of the Western world (save retail) there ain't much work scheduled to be done to begin with.

[val]

Hey, you guys, remeber how a few days ago, MNG came to all the unrelated threads and complained how Reason is not covering the renewed rocket attacks by Hamas?....no?....me neither.

[Episiarch]

Personally, I don't care whether Reason posts on Israel. I don't give two shits about that eternal clusterfuck any more, and am sick of hearing about it. Let them blow each other up, I really don't care. I'd just like to stop giving them money and get completely and utterly out of the situation.

[BDB]

"Episiarch | December 28, 2008, 5:42pm | #
Personally, I don't care whether Reason posts on Israel. I don't give two shits about that eternal clusterfuck any more, and am sick of hearing about it. Let them blow each other up, I really don't care. I'd just like to stop giving them money and get completely and utterly out of the situation."

Or just sell them both weapons.

[BoscoH]

"The penultimate review of anything written by Naomi Klein" by BoscoH:

She's cute. She used to be smoking hot. This is what makes her interesting. She's a pseudo intellectual with a predictable anti-corporate theme. This is what people tolerate because of her cuteness/hotness. She confounds libertarians because they just can't accept that a chick that cute/hot could possibly be so shallow (or a lefty, take your pick).

[GILMORE]

MNG | December 28, 2008, 3:40pm | #

Well, for one thing the Palestianians didn't move into New York City and declare an ethnic state

Huh?

What does this mean, that when the jews came to new york, they created Teh Evil Capitalists or something? Or is pluralistic cosmopolitanism the sad legacy of their migration?

Bombings aside, whats the deal with lefties turning any criticism of Klien's nonsense into an opportunity to go, "ahh, but the *Joos*...!" Its like Godwins law in reverse.

Gotta go see Operation Valkyrie now. Fingers crossed...

Hate to be a spoiler, but.... well, they dont actually kill Hitler. Disappointing, i know

[GILMORE]

BoscoH | December 28, 2008, 6:01pm | #

"The penultimate review of anything written by Naomi Klein" by BoscoH:

She's cute. She used to be smoking hot. This is what makes her interesting. She's a pseudo intellectual with a predictable anti-corporate theme. This is what people tolerate because of her cuteness/hotness. She confounds libertarians because they just can't accept that a chick that cute/hot could possibly be so shallow (or a lefty, take your pick).

WTF??

Dude, I think you're confusing the lady with Naomi Wolf, who is only vaguely attractive. Klein requires a bag on her head, for more than one reason

[MNG]

And Val, remember when those rocket attacks killed over 200 people?

You can go back to the Mumbai shootings and read the posts that day to see my outrage on the bloody cowards who did that.

And you can go all the way back to the ugly Moynihan Kwanzaa post where I condemned Saudia Arabia.

So yeah, when a nation kills 200 people in an act of collective punishment, I get a little peeved. Go figure. And far from "singling out" one or one side, which you seem to do for defense, I call 'em like I see 'em, and I feel sorry for someone who can't see that bombing concentrated population areas with a freaking F-16 is immoral.

Gilmore
You can't figure out what that means? It means that for 20th century European Jews to come into the land that the Palestinians had been living in for centuries and that the European Jews had not been living in for 20 centuries is kind of like a bunch of Palestinians plopping down in some area that Jews had been living in and proclaiming a state (I picked NYC because it has a lot of Jews, but it is a poor analogy because they would have to have lived there for centuries). I was trying to illustrate the rather incredible idea that was Zionism and resulted in the modern state of Israel.

Sorry bro, I love NYC (my fav behind DC) and I am rather fond of Jews as a people generally and the particular ones I know personally. So that baiting won't work here.

[Indigo Montoya]

The penultimate review

I do not think that word means what you think it means

[MNG]

But Epi and BDB, do you care when Israel limits the economic and personal freedoms of innocents in the Occupied Territories? Do you want to argue they do not?

If no, then why do you give a crap about Venezulans who face violations of their human and economic rights by Chavez or Cubans from Castro?

And if yes, then ain't it strange we hear about the latter all the time here but not the former? That's all I'm saying.

And dudes, Valkyrie was better than I thought. Not great, but thumbs up.

[MNG]

BDB

Here's a pro-Israel source on the foriegn aid thing.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=11497

Notice that Saudia Arabia ain't even worth a mention.
There are better figures out there than this. Take some time, you'd be amazed at the lopsided support we've given one side in this conflict. It's really incredible if you ain't seen it before...

[MNG]

Here is the 2008 Human Rights Watch report (Moynihan has often cited the HRW report on Venezula) on Israel. Let's see the libertarian implications.

"closed the crossings for people (Rafah and Erez) and for goods"; "sharply limited the passage of imports to Gaza"; "banned the export of Israeli goods bound for Gaza except for limited humanitarian supplies" "245 Palestinians, about half of whom were not participating in hostilities, were killed by Israeli security forces"; "expanded already extensive, often arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement"; "restrictions make it impossible for many Palestinians, including UN doctors and teachers, to get to work, access education and health services, and visit family, friends, and religious and cultural institutions"; "prohibited Palestinians from the OPT who are spouses of Israeli citizens from joining their partners in Israel"; "85 percent of the wall's route extends into the West Bank, carving out approximately 10 percent of the West Bank"

So we have restrictions on freedom of movement, restrictions on imports and exports, government appropriation of property, restrictions on marital residence, and the killing of civilians. Imagine being a Palestinian, non-Hamas businessman living in Gaza.

And now we have over 200 dead from fighter jet attacks.

If that were Chavez or Castro Reason would be shitting a free market brick on a regular basis.

[MNG]

D'oh.

Here's the link:
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/category,COI,HRW,ANNUALREPORT,ISR,47a87c07c,0.html

[The Angry Optimist]

You keep saying 200 dead as if that fact, in an of itself, is outrageous. From the reports I hear, most of the 200 are Hamas members. Meaning you should be jumping up and down about say, 20 people.

[Episiarch]

MNG:

"Greeks are just Jews without the money."

[Pendulum]

In addition, Hamas purposely locates their missile launchers and other facilities in residential areas so as to maximize civilian casualties.

To Israel's critics, I'm curious: How do you suppose Israel should respond? What would you do if a large area of your country was being bombarded by missiles on a daily basis?

[Les]

To Israel's critics, I'm curious: How do you suppose Israel should respond? What would you do if a large area of your country was being bombarded by missiles on a daily basis?

That's a good question. I do know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't kill many times the number of civilians as the rocket attacks are and pretend that it's going to end the rocket attacks. That would be be stupid and inhumane.

[Izzy]

Sorry Israel critics, under the laws of war Hamas is totally to blame for the death of civilians. (I'm very tempted to call you anti-Semites, because no other country defending itself would get this criticism....but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just morons.)

Hamas purposefully put their armaments in civilian areas. If civilians get killed when Israel defends herself, that's Hamas's fault. Don't blame Israel. I can't believe I even have to make this point. And I'm not familiar with any libertarian arguments against countries defending themselves from rocket attacks, so spare me.

And as for the idiotic trope "Arabs lived in Israel and no Jews were there" point...not true, Jews had also been living there for thousands of years. Again, I'm tempted to play the anti-Semite card, but I'll assume you're just idiots. Even if that was true, Israel was established by the UN, it is a legitimate state and exists, so what's your fucking point?

[MaterialMonkee]

"the rather incredible idea that was Zionism "

Its funny that is quite a commonly held belief, Basically the formation of Israel was some crazy political aberration completely out of sink with the rest of the era.

I'm from the UK and It's pretty much commonly believed that the idea of making Israel was a bad idea. The funniest one is when I get told by someone of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin the same thing.

Then I think hang on making Bangladesh caused the forced ejection of approximately 30 million Hindus Sikhs and Buddhists from the lands that formed East Pakistan (now called Bangladesh) a nation for east Indian Muslims.

There's a word for people who think making Israel exist was a good idea "Zionists"
Being a Zionist has been declared racist by the UN

There's no equivalent word for Bangladeshism
and I presume its not considered racist to believe that forming the nation of Bangladesh was racist or even a bad idea.

I'm not a Jew and both sides of the conflict consistently make me wanna bang my head against a wall but the whole anti-zionist left wing hatred of jews thing just seems like a cherry picking of history

[Les]

(I'm very tempted to call you anti-Semites, because no other country defending itself would get this criticism....but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just morons.)

Well, since many countries have been criticized for ineffective and disproportionate responses to terrorism, as opposed to "no other country," wouldn't that make you the moron? Just asking!

[MaterialMonkee]

It would be nice to see Reason have a dig at the blockade of Gaza. Free trade would definitely help alleviate some problems in the region.

[BDB]

If you believe there should be a Jewish state in a part of Palestine (not all of Palestine, and 99% of the time this means the 1948-1967 Israel border) than you're a Zionist. That makes me a Zionist.

[SIV]

I fully support Israel's right to self defense but I think the country is an unsustainable entity as a "Democratic Jewish State". They have kept their popularion demographic by immigration.
Arab Israelis have large families while Jewish Israelis do not.There is no "new" population of Jewish immigrants to draw on so they are going to lose their majority.I don't see a happy transition in the future.

[Naomi Klein]

I have never heard of this STAGFLATION

Its a well know fact that Keynesian economics was working just fine in the UK prior to Margaret Thatcher.

In the 70's every thing was just Hunky Dory, The concept that Keynesian economics fucked up so badly that people coined the phrase STAGFLATION seems absurd to me!

Its a well know fact that Maggie Thatcher "manufactured consent" for economic liberalization by starting the Falklands War!

[SIV]

Chanukah (Hanukkah) 2008 is over but Kwanzaa rolls on! Let's hear it for contrived ethnic-based alternatives to Christmas!

[Izzy]

No Les. No other country who was being rocketed for months and then finally responded by firing back to areas where the enemy purposefully settled in civilian neighborhoods would be critisized. Only Israel (and perhaps the US). And I can prove it. Where were you Les when Hamas was shelling Israel? Did you post a comment here condemning them? Did any of these anti-Israel commentators?

What Hamas was doing was an act of war. And it's funny that the people so bent out of shape about Israel's response were silent. Now they're upset. How do you explain that Les? Israel's response was totally proporationate. Again, blame Hamas for civilian deaths, not

[Tony Iommi]

I'm thinking of calling my new album either The Beauty Myth or The Shock Doctrine

[jk]

Moynihan actually has the gall to accuse Klein of cherry picking evidence?

Norberg accuses Klien of cherry picking evidence, not Moynihan.

[Les]

Izzy, it's my understanding that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I condemn all acts of terrorism, and all acts which disregard civilian safety. I hold Israel to a higher standard of behavior. I expect more from Israel, because I don't think that the state of Israel, unlike Hamas, is inherently barbaric. And I wish it wasn't necessary to point out such an intellectually obvious point, but opposing the actions of the Israeli government, isn't the same as being "anti-Israel," just as opposing the actions of the U.S. government doesn't make one "anti-American."

I think it's important to compare the number of deaths caused by Hamas' rocket attacks and those caused by Israel (specifically civilian deaths), if one wants to judge the proportionality of Israel's response.

I would explain people getting "bent out of shape" by Israel's bombing of areas heavily populated by school children by pointing out that U.S. taxes pay for a lot of the weaponry that's killing and wounding those children. I don't think we pay for Hamas' rockets.

[John C. Randolph]

I don't think we pay for Hamas' rockets.

If you buy gasoline, you sure do.

-jcr

[Famous Mortimer]

Wait, Hamas is nothing more than a small group of thugs now? As we have been reminded since their victory, Hamas was democratically elected to represent the Palestinian people. So, they do represent, to some degree, the will of the people. These are the consequences that result from choosing a violent, incompetent regime to represent your interests.

Just like the consequences of the Bush presidency are the direct result of many shallow, ill-informed people choosing an incompetent representative. It works both ways, or so I've been told.

Enough with the Palestinian sob story. You reap what you sow.

This persistent double standard in regards to Palestinians, and the overall childish manner in which Arabs are treated everytime their actions result in violence, is shallow enough.

However, to watch it cement itself in the minds of so many educated people reminds me that there really isn't any sensible reason to give a shit what happens in the M.E.

It's never going to end until someone gets beaten into submission, and the odds that Arabs are going to be doing the beating is so remote that it's best that they accept Israel's presence now, and save themselves a lot of trouble.

Although, trouble seems to be a regional cultural past-time. What else are they going to do? What, create solid infrastructures, and sensible social policies?

You're funny.

[Famous Mortimer]

"I think it's important to compare the number of deaths caused by Hamas' rocket attacks and those caused by Israel (specifically civilian deaths), if one wants to judge the proportionality of Israel's response."

This is an absurd form of reasoning. Do you suggest that Israel only fire one rocket for every rocket that Hamas fires? If Israel's "proportional" rocket blasts end up being less or more accurate, and inadvertently kill more people than those that Hamas sends over to Israel, is the response still justified?

Hamas was democratically elected. Therefore, you essentially confirmed that the Palestinian people elected a terrorist organization to represent their interests. Are the Palestinian people no longer responsible for that decision?

By your own standards, it would be difficult to have sympathy for a nation who elected such an openly violent group to represent them; especially a group that has made it clear that the eradication of Israel is their ultimate goal, and not peace.

Again, it's astonishing that this level of naivet? is present amongst supposedly intelligent people. It's willful delusion.

Clearly, it's not about reason, but about standing up for a perceived underdog. People who are pushovers generally support, and identify with people who are being pushed over.

I've never met a pacifist who could actually fight. It's not a coincidence, it's a bias.

More people have died through these never-ending attempts to engineer a peace agreement in the M.E. than would have likely died if the issue was settled through an all out war.

Ah, the trouble with principle.

[Famous Mortimer]

"That's a good question. I do know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't kill many times the number of civilians as the rocket attacks are and pretend that it's going to end the rocket attacks. That would be be stupid and inhumane."

No, it would be an unfortunate consequence of the policy's that a democratically elected government instituted on behalf of its citizens.

Playing semantics would be what you are doing.

There's one standard for Arabs, and another for the rest of the world. Treating them like responsible adults is obviously inhumane.

[Kreel Sarloo]

I've never met a pacifist who could actually fight.

Alvin York won the Medal of Honor. Smedley Butler got two of them.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Alvin York won the Medal of Honor. Smedley Butler got two of them."

The people you mentioned not only fought, but killed others, and were rewarded for it.

I'm not talking about conversions due to the horrors of war. I'm talking about your average suburban bred, philosophy club geek who would curl into the fetal position if attacked.

More importantly, I am directing my comments toward principled pacifists, many of whom have never been witness to any significant form of conflict.

It's an entirely separate affliction based on naive assumptions about human nature. It's a luxury of the middle class.

Actually, many self-avowed pacifists probably don't even recognize that there is such a thing as human nature, which allows for all kinds of contorted reasoning.

[MNG]

TAO
I'm glad to see you here, the person who wails so much about such a mild form of "collective policy" as that anti-discrimination laws are wrong because they can't 100% be targeted at the people who've benefited from past injustices or to benefit those who have been harmed. But nothing to say when the IDF engages in the kind of military attack that is bound to kill people with absolutely nothing to do with the rocket attacks of Hamas of late. Or the collective punishments the IDF engages in such as bulldozing property of FAMILY MEMBERS of attackers, or armed embragoes on all of Gaza or withholding the forced collection of customs duties or electricty, heating oil, etc. Nothing to say about this stuff huh?

You're a fauz libertarian and more of a right wing bitch.

[MNG]

One stupid apologist at at time. Izzy's turn.

1. "If civilians get killed when Israel defends herself, that's Hamas's fault. Don't blame Israel."

Bullshit. There are more and less appropriate responses even when a belligerent places themselves near civilians. This is why when Iraqi terrorists run a suicide bomb near a police station in Iraq (a "legitimate target" for their crazy purposes) in a crowded square it's considered a travesty.

2. "Jews had also been living there for thousands of years"

That's true, but the when the State of Israel was declared in 1948 it was not just led by European Jews, it was comprised of a clear majority of such Jews (from Europe). I've proved this so many times in past debates with "anon" so I'll just say look it up. Again, the Jews that comprised the majority of the State of Israel when it declared statehood had not lived in that area for TWENTY CENTURIES.

3. "Even if that was true, Israel was established by the UN, it is a legitimate state and exists, so what's your fucking point?"

And what does the same UN say about Gaza and the West Bank? Hmmm? Something about illegally occupied territories? Since you are basing the legitimacy of Israel on the UN are you willing, like me, to advocate they go back to the UN drawn borders?

Back to the cave with you apologist for murder.

[MNG]

"These are the consequences that result from choosing a violent, incompetent regime to represent your interests."

That small boy on the CNN page with his face split open. He reaped this? Yeah, sure Mortimer, that makes sense.

"There's one standard for Arabs, and another for the rest of the world."

Oh please, as noted above if England had used f-16's to bomb Catholic Northern Ireland neighborhoods the world would be in an uproar. Its a double standard all right, but its for Israel, and you're part of that.

[Lincoln]

MNG, I agree with you for the most part but would love to hear what you consider a proportionate response. What exactly is Israel supposed to do?

[Shivas_Irons]

Les:

"I think it's important to compare the number of deaths caused by Hamas' rocket attacks and those caused by Israel (specifically civilian deaths), if one wants to judge the proportionality of Israel's response."

I think it's important to point out that Les is an idiot... and would he have Israel, to defend itself from the daily terrorism, simply lob 500 missiles a day into Gaza instead of hitting the military sites in Gaza... because it would be "proportional".

Or, would Les just have Israel take it cause they're joooooooos?

I hope this helps.

[MNG]

Lincoln
It's a difficult question, but Israel has been responding to these rocket attacks with small scale missle attacks that kill 2-5 people and such for years now and you have not seen me raising hell about that. They usually try very hard to kill "gunmen" by targeting a specific car or apartment room.

I'd like to point out Shivas is an idiot. Killing 300+ for the firing of however many crude rockets that have killed very few people is simply a disproportionate response. Nobody is calling on Israel to "take it" so you can put that "anti-Semite" card back in the deck buddy. Just like they should have not to "take it" because they are "joooos" Israel doesn't get some kind of special protection from abhorrent acts it commits because they are "jooos" either. But nice try!

[libertymike]

MNG-

Don't you just love these apologists for mass murder?

[libertymike]

The state of Israel is a terrorist organization. The state was birthed through terrorism. It will also die by terrorism.

[Thomass]

I sometimes wonder if parts of the left peddle these kinds of theories to desensitize people to the concept/s themselves.

Now if you talk about the progressives use of crisis (be they wars, ecological, racial integration, or economic) to push through changes to the economic system and government's relationship to the public? the general public might associate you with these nuts.

They do / achieve something similar with the abuse of the term fascism. Now you can't even make a serious argument about the intellectual far left roots of someone like Klein's arguments without moderates rolling their eyes? you end up sounding just like the illiterate boors who call everyone a fascist?

[R C Dean]

Where on earth did this idea that an act of war should only elicit a "proportional" response come from?

Aggression should elicit a response that is sufficient to bring an end to the agression. Proportionality to the act of aggression has nothing to do with it. If a response to aggression should be measured against anything, it should be the amount of force necessary to bring an end to the aggression.

[libertymike]

R C Dean-

Yeah, Hamas, Hizbollah et al should respond in a more brutal manner to the systematic acts of aggression perpetrated by Israel.

[Les]

Aggression should elicit a response that is sufficient to bring an end to the agression.

I completely agree. But this will not bring about an end to the aggression. And there are a wide variety of responses available which don't include bombing areas with school children.

[Les]

Do you suggest that Israel only fire one rocket for every rocket that Hamas fires?

I suggest they don't target areas with school children.

By your own standards, it would be difficult to have sympathy for a nation who elected such an openly violent group to represent them; especially a group that has made it clear that the eradication of Israel is their ultimate goal, and not peace.

I have no sympathy for members of Hamas. I have sympathy for their children.

I've never met a pacifist who could actually fight. It's not a coincidence, it's a bias.

What makes you think that I'm a pacifist? Does thinking that alternatives to blowing up school children should be sought out make one a pacifist?

[Gilbert Martin]

This thread is supposed to be about beating up on Naomi Klein's idiotic notions about capitalism.

How did it get to be about the Isreali/Hamas conflict?

[R C Dean]

And there are a wide variety of responses available which don't include bombing areas with school children.

That assumes that Hamas is not basing its rockets and mortars in areas with school children. If they are (and I believe they are), then bombing these areas is perfectly appropriate regardless of the presence of children, because that's where the enemy assets are.

Remember - you get more of what you reward, and less of what you punish. If you reward Hamas for using children as human shields by giving them immunity for doing so, then they will do it more and more.

[sheesh]

Here's an idea: The next time some pompous, solipsistic asshole like MNG threadjacks a piece, we just all ignore him and stick to the topic.

[Paul]

Just to get back on topic ...

I've just read The Shock Doctrine and found sections of it convincing. Contrary to what Norberg is suggesting, it's not socialist rant - it is a critique of the methods under which free market tools have been implemented in developing economies. I happen to believe strongly in free markets so would normally agree with Norberg but he seems to (rather glibly) be arguing from his perceptions of what Klein represents rather than the actual content of the book. Her analysis of Tiananmen, which he scoffs at, is actually a view held by many Chinese scholars, including CCP members I have spoken to. I'd really suggest you get Klein on to debate Norberg rather than listen to him pick and choose its weak points without going to the substance of her argument.

[Leonardo DaVinci]

With Norberg, perception is reality.