Campaigns/Elections

Hit & Run's Presidential Debate Live Blog

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NEXT: McCain-Obama III: The Naumachia in New York

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  1. I think McCain had Nancy’s pelvis broken.

    He was still pissed about the last debate where he mentioned Ted Kennedy but Ted was already out of the hospital.

    This time, he knows Nancy ain’t going anywhere.

  2. Weigel watching the debate on MSNBC?

    He *is* a Dem shill! 🙂

  3. Oh, boy! This is gonna be great!

  4. I don’t remember McCain blinking this much before.

  5. sorry, I’m watching the Rangers game.

  6. lots of blinking going on there Mr. McCain

  7. I’m missing the Project Runway finale–this better be good.

  8. Why no moderated live reader comments in the liveblog?

  9. along the lines for Ian said, if I refresh the comments on the reason blog, it freezes the coveritlive ap.

  10. “Fanny and Freddy Mae”????
    Nice one Johnny.

  11. It’s really obvious what McCain is trying to do here

  12. Joe the Plumber is a great American.

  13. Joe the plumber must be a wonderful, wonderful man. I haven’t seen him, but I’m sure he’s dreamy.

  14. Don’t mind me picking up “plumber” as tonight’s drinking word.

  15. I like to see what XOM does the second half of ’08. They actually underperformed expectations with oil at 140+. If it stays down at 70 or so, they’re going to be hurtin

  16. Why no moderated live reader comments in the liveblog?

    It starts with a “d” and ends with an “ondero”, that’s why.

    Kolohe, do what I’m doing – open the reader comments in a separate tab…

  17. Bob Schieffer wins.

  18. Joe has to be a plumber because he is in the services sector because the manufacturing sector has been shipped overseas!

  19. The American People, and the Rangers, lose

  20. A trillion dollar deficit. Jesus fucking shit monkeys.

    “Aren’t you both ignoring reality?”

    GEE, YA THINK, BOB?!?

  21. Man, this shoulda been an IRC party!

  22. I would blather incessantly and be banned repeatedly. I would think I’m funny. T’would be good.

  23. REASON‘s editors are doing their best to dispell Handsome Dick Manitoba’s quote “In my book quantity is quality”

  24. Just don’t flash McCain the Queen of Diamonds, he’ll get all Manchurian Candidate on our ass.

  25. Fucking Phillies.

  26. Don’t mind me picking up “plumber” as tonight’s drinking word.

    I’m already drunk.

  27. That $700 billion isn’t government money. WTF is he talking about.

  28. I miss Joe (the plumber, that is). Things haven’t been the same since they quit talking about him.

  29. 3-0 Phila. I wonder what this city is like when people are happy.

  30. John McCain is sounding like a retard.

  31. More soundbites and crap. McCain is not going to “knock it out the box,” or do a Bush-in-1984 and whip anyone’s ass.

    Bottom line, the Republicans need to suck it up, realize that they’ve lost this election and then contemplate how their slavish obeisance to Dubya destroyed whatever credibility they’ve had.

    If they are wise, they’ll figure out a way to ditch the religious nutjobs and neocons and create a new conservative-libertarian based political initiative.

    The only thing that we as libertarians have on our side under the coming Obama presidency is that rubber of reality will hit the road when the “magic pot of money to redistribute the wealth” fails to materialize and the Democrats will have to make choices from among their various factions, all of whom want a check at the expense of some other person’s dwindling pockets.

  32. I don’t believe thst McCain knows what he say he knows…

    He’s on my watch list.

  33. Taxes are going up on everybody, not just the “working families who earn more than $250k”.
    Hell even Bob Lutz of GM wants a floor under gas prices so the Volt won’t crash and burn.

  34. Johnny is getting senile. The line-item veto was already ruled unconstitutional.

  35. Senor GATACA-

    Gracias for the tip.

  36. Eliminate the tariff on Brazilian sugarcane? Is the maverick taking on HFCS? O noes!

  37. Where are Nick Gillespie and Kerry Howley?

  38. A scalpel won’t work against the federal leviathan.

  39. If they are wise, they’ll figure out a way to ditch the religious nutjobs and neocons and create a new conservative-libertarian based political initiative.

    Nah, they’ll chalk this one up to McCain not being Jesus-y enough. Huckabee 2012!

  40. Sound byte!

  41. “Senator Obama, President Bush is a friend of mine, and I’m no President Bush”

  42. Doesn’t really have the same ring to it.

  43. WTF was that face at the mention of “Fox News”

  44. Haha!
    “Has been disputed by…. everybody”

  45. McCain has that forced grin. Why does he do that?

  46. I’m out of cheap wine and I kinda want to get some falafel but I might miss a worthwhile gaffe.

    Argh, too many choices!

  47. epic foxnews slam! he’s throwin rocks tonight!

    on second thought

  48. McCain has to watch that temper…Why is he letting shit get to him?

  49. Wow, Obama is super saiyan tonight. McCain had better whip out the Ayers card quick!

  50. This is a great surreal debate because Obama & McCain can;t just read off their paper script in tonight’s format.

  51. Bob totally wins.

  52. SAY IT TO MY FACE!!!

  53. Ha, Bob says, “sack up, nancy boys!”

  54. Obama should watch smirking

  55. You know? I don’t really care if they get mean and negative in a campaign. It’s expected, and you gotta do what you gotta do to point out the other fool’s shortcomings. As long as whoever I’m for gets negative too, then I don’t care.

  56. I thought for a second McCain was going to cry a la Clinton in NH.

  57. Lots of blinking…

  58. John Lewis, civil rights hero, hurt my feelings.

  59. That’s it. The moderator wins.

  60. “I thought for a second McCain was going to cry a la Clinton in NH.”

    Well, he’s tried to copy everything else from the Hillary Clinton campaign so he may as well.

  61. Well it’s obvious McCain isn’t going to win by being nice and sweet, so he may as well go down fighting hard instead of turning the other cheek.

  62. Nah, they’ll chalk this one up to McCain not being Jesus-y enough.

    Hell, Jesus Himself isn’t Jesusy enough for these Republicans!

  63. McCain is using tricky accounting practices to pin Obama, nice. They got the Dems company books.

  64. 100%? McCain’s campaign ads are more negative yes, but that’s a crazy comment

  65. McCain’s campaign ads are now 100% negative. They haven’t always been. Not sure why Obama didn’t properly qualify that.

  66. “McCain isn’t going to win by being nice and sweet”

    Yeah, he’s been so nice and sweet lately as he falls in the polls…

  67. Joe the plumber, doggonit!

  68. “So, to summarize, say what you want about me. I can take the slings and arrows, but stop slandering poor, defenseless, Blinky.”

    **Only a moron wouldn’t cast his vote for Monty Burns!!**

  69. Joe the Plumber again!

  70. Obama is a successful fundraiser! That’s a bad thing!

  71. The ‘my underdog hometown team beat the Evil Empire’ would have been a powerful weapon in more capable hands.

  72. This would be a better REASON liveblog thing if a few of the better commenters were invited.

  73. Barack’s just pissed off that he’s got more for McCain to pick on and attack him for with all his suspicious activities.

    They both attack, and they should both attack. Get over it. That’s the game they signed up for and people should quit whining about negativity.

    Sarah Palin being called a cunt on t-shirts pretty much negates the “kill him” and “off with his head” whining.

  74. Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?

  75. John Lewis ate breakfast with Bill Ayers, known terrorist

  76. Palin rally was a frightening thing, what was a hockey mom to do if her followers are fanatics?

  77. McCain is really angry.

  78. When Obama started that crap about giving 95% of the people a tax cut, McCain should have pointed out that 95% of the people don’t pay taxes in the first place.

    Giving people who don’t pay taxes money isn’t a “tax cut” – it’s a welfare payment.

  79. The Ayers thing was going to pass unstated; why the heck did Obama allude to it?

  80. McCain looks flustered and upset. He does not look Presidential.

  81. It’s crazy for a man with McCain’s experience to get so angry

  82. They’re dedicated killbots

  83. wow, he’s totally going to cry

  84. Ok new subject please.

  85. Poor wittle pussy McCain had his wittle feelings hurt. And the big bad black bully just doesnt care.

  86. McCain needs some valium.

  87. Gilbert
    95% of the people don’t pay taxes? Are you stoned?

  88. Was it just me or did Obama correct Mccain on Cardinals v. Cowboys? I believe Obama said it was the Redskins however I am pretty sure it was Cardinals v. Cowboys

  89. Deny and deflect, deny and deflect.

  90. Where is the moderator?

  91. This seems like the longest segment for a single ‘topic’ of any of the previous three debates.

    It almost ran out of steam until McCain started running downfield right now.

  92. Wow, the Barr feed is just a complete clusterfuck this time. Why are they doing internet streaming instead of a TV?

  93. Maybe the t-shirts would be acceptable if hot t-shirt girl was wearing them

  94. Kaiser
    I think he said “congratulations”

  95. I actually like emotion and heart in my president. Bill Clinton was like that.

  96. I think he just said “congratulations” (because McCain had a big role – I think he was the one that blocked the punt).

  97. McCain looks flustered and upset. He does not look Presidential.

    You haven’t seen many of our presidents in action, have you?

  98. well I haven’t had my lobotomy yet so I can’t really call myself a libertarian. But, I did vote for Bush in the last election, with little or no feeling of conviction except to spite the liberal mobs on campus.

    now, I am very disgusted with both parties. I can’t ever feel like it’s an Us vs Them in two party politics anymore.

    damn, is there a good reason to vote for either of them? they offer nothing

  99. ACORN, eh? I’m finishing my beer.

  100. WTF is ACORN?

  101. Which was a bizarre thing to say either way

  102. He can dis the Cowboys, he ain’t gonna win TX either way

  103. Mr. Nice Guy

    Ahh too bad, that could’ve been a major gaffe! Oh well back to the boredom.

  104. The squirrels have landed…

  105. Obama’s self-defensive smiles are getting pretty annoying.

  106. The past 10 minutes or so was painful.

  107. boy, talk about putting land mine under McCain

  108. “WTF is ACORN?”

    American
    Congress
    Of
    Republican
    Nativists

    They were a community group headed by Lonewhacko bent on catching illegal immigrants and releasing them in Argentina

  109. Better than rolling his eyes

  110. Is Obama going to mention that McCain was a keynote speaker at an ACORN convention?

  111. I just think Obama is a liar. I’ve read both sides of all crap that’s out there, proven or not, and I don’t know what to take for truth anymore. But my deep gut feeling is that he’s just a damn liar. He ain’t caught yet, but it’s likely that he’s a great big bullshit free riding phony.

  112. Joe “six pack” Biden

  113. Per Jesse Walker’s 9:40
    Well, that exchange was excruciatingly long, but McCain did get some good shots in, and imo was his best performance so far tonight. (but which ain’t saying much)

  114. I guess not.

  115. At this point I don’t believe anything can help Mccain. IF he had voted no on the bailout, and IF he had then come out strong against Obama being a socialist I believe quite honestly he would be in the lead. However screwed the pooch on that one by voting for the bailout and turning to attack ads. Which subsequently in normal elections probably would have worked.

  116. Americans have gotten to know Sarah Palin, despite our best efforts

  117. Nailin’ Pailin

  118. I CAN HAZ VEEP?
    Classic

  119. McCain is the old boy network.

  120. Obama is touting Biden’s support for federal “Crime Bills”. More police, draconian drug sentences,destruction of civil liberties and gun control.We’ll get more of it Obamatarians.

  121. That clinches it … my sphincter, I mean. McCain needs someone to change his diaper … he’s getting whiny. I cannot stomach the man. Before this debate, at least I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but that’s gone. He is just behaving like a spoiled little bratty kid who can’t think of anything except for stinky feet. His smirks and complete avoidance of any substance, his continuing repetition of total, naked lies and innuendo … he makes me physically ill. Unbelievable. I’m disgusted by that one.

  122. Fuck special needs families. Seriously. What the fuck does that have to do with being a heartbeat away from the presidency?

  123. This is a rout.

    I called the first one a tie, leaning McCain.

    I called the second one a close win for Obama.

    This is a rout.

  124. Sarah Palin
    Stood up to intra-party corruption
    Has insight on special needs children

  125. WTF was that again? “what they call ‘the lower 48?'”

    It would have been perfectly fine to say “relieve the energy crunch of The United States” or even ‘our country’ you know, the one that’s ‘first’

  126. Obama wants to point out that she is a dumbass, but hesitates. Why?

  127. Hi, SIV.

    I’m not writing talking points at all, and you are.

    Know why?

  128. I’d trade the Drug Czar for a Special Needs Czar any day.

  129. Is Obama’s answer to everything to just throw more money at it?

  130. I’m so glad Obama and McCain are eager to vie for the Jenny McCarthy vote.

  131. This is so colossally entertaining

  132. ‘cockamamie’ is a word I have never heard from anyone under Monty Burns age.

  133. If Iraq is united, I’m Miles Davis.

  134. “More police, draconian drug sentences,destruction of civil liberties and gun control.We’ll get more of it Obamatarians.”

    None of that from the GOP, nope. The GOP stands bravely for the rights of the accused and against expansion of police rights…

  135. A rout for who, joe?

  136. “Is Obama’s answer to everything to just throw more money at it?”

    pretty much

  137. McCain:
    TAXES GOD DAMNIT! LETS TALK ABOUT TAXES!!!!
    TAXES!!
    FUCK HIM! DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT!

  138. BHO lied about his involvement with ACORN, which is much more extensive – and recent – than he indicated. Now he’s off on a distraction about who his advisors are.

    Note also his reaction to McCain’s attack: he could barely speak for a few seconds. If a regular citizen – not an MSM hack – really pressed him on something who knows what he’d say?

  139. BDB,

    Isn’t it obvious?

  140. I live in Ohio. There would be no oil checks here. We could be swimming in oil and there would be 18 million tax raise ballot issues.

  141. Let the fools have their tartar sauce

  142. Lol! I think McCain just sneered. That was awesome!

  143. Yes, but what about nuclear power pants?

  144. Joe–

    I’m horrible at calling these things. I don’t know what Joe Plumber would say.

  145. Why joe?

    Because I don’t have to.

  146. “Now let’s talk about LoneWacko – useful idiot, or just idiot?”

  147. Isn’t cockamamie a racist slur about “black mamies”?

  148. He, any of you guys had the Big Vinnie pizza from Round Table? We’re trying it tonight.

    So is it still giant douche or turd sandwich?

  149. Navy Nuclear power is closer to 50 years.

    Following her commissioning, Nautilus remained dockside for further construction and testing. At 11:00 hours on January 17, 1955 she put to sea for the first time and signaled her historic message: “Underway on nuclear power.”

  150. Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global warming to be bullshit? Er, let me rephrase that…”man made” global warming. Don’t get me wrong alternative energy is great but should be pursued by private entities. Not something funded by the government because of some widespread fear that if we don’t stop using oil right this second we will all implode.

    Lest we not forget…. every time we breathe, we emit “green house gasses” I say a good solution is for everyone who believes in global warming just hold their breath for as long as possible every day.

  151. BDB,

    The post-debate polls tonight and tomorrow and this weekend are going to be substantially better for Barack Obama this time than they were in the second debate, and those polls were pretty good.

  152. Sweet, government-issued electric-Yugos for everyone!

  153. “”Now let’s talk about LoneWacko – useful idiot, or just idiot?””

    Useful. God has a plan even for people with special needs..

  154. Obama’s answer always raises the question:
    So why *can’t* the Big 2 1/2 or 2 or whatever it’s going to be build fuel efficient cars, but the Asians can?

  155. “every time we breathe, we emit “green house gasses””

    Especially after eating some wicked Thai.

  156. “Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global warming to be bullshit?”

    No, lots of people think its bullshit. And lots of people think that angels visit Earth regularly.

  157. We’ll see. I think McCain looks really uncomfortable and angry, but again I’m not Joe the Plumber in Methville.

  158. Kolohe:

    Obviously because Uncle Sam hasn’t given them enough money.

  159. And lots of people also think health care is a right.

  160. Wait, McCain’s trying to make a point that Obama is not ‘international’ *enough*?

  161. Oh my God, McCain’s talking about drilling.

    That barely worked when gas was four bucks.

  162. Biden “has been on the right side” of the critical issues throughout his career?

    Of course I really can’t expect McCain to point out how often Biden called for military action and warned about Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction.

  163. Am I the only one who thinks McCain is winning?

  164. Kaiser,

    I don’t care about global warming. I care about alternative energy so the people of the Middle East can go back to their nomadic, barely subsisting ways.

  165. Am I the only person still alive that finds this idea of global warming to be bullshit?

    I’ll let the scienticians decide that one.

  166. Did McCain just say he wants to send workers to community college?

    So they can one day be his VP?

  167. I’m glad Matt Welch is tearing into Obama. I only ever saw him negative on McCain (his book and all). But it is nice to see he hates Obama pretty equally.

  168. McCain nearly lost it on Colombian free trade. I thought he was going to punch Obama in the face.

  169. BDB,

    Barack Obama has been hoping to get John McCain to act like this for months, and tonight, he did.

  170. Jesus Christ McCain is agitated as hell. He’s gonna blow a blood vessel.

  171. Obama should do a photo op in Dillon, SC tomorrow.

  172. labor is under killed per population in Columbia. as fucked up as that may sound, it is true.

  173. JC,
    Maybe Welch is a libertarian? Libertarians don’t care for either of these clowns..

  174. “Isn’t it obvious?”

    No.

  175. Obama has never been to Mexico. That is funny. I thought he was Mr. World traveler.

  176. Obama is guarantee that we can all spend money and buy fuel-efficient cars and thus save the economy, the Big 2.5 AND the environment.

    It’s so simple!

  177. Hooooooooooooover!

  178. “No, lots of people think its bullshit. And lots of people think that angels visit Earth regularly.”

    I realize that the earth is in a warming trend. I also however realize that it cools off. I don’t believe that man made global warming is real in any form. Coming at this from a scientific point of view, we as people have only been on this planet for a fraction of 1% of it’s entire life. All of which, by the way, has been in a warming period. To honestly believe that we have such a huge impact on the planet in such a small amount of time seems to take a certain level of arrogance that I can not attain.

  179. Hoover, drink.

  180. The real question is how much of Mexico can Palin see from her house? Besides the Taco Bell down the street.

  181. “Obama has never been to Mexico.”

    Neither has Sarah Palin, but she says she can see it from Alaska

  182. Hmm.. We’ll give guarantees to the banking industry but need to help them manage their businesses… and we’ll give guarantees to the auto industry but need to help them manage their businesses…..

  183. Hello my friends, this is Johnny checking in. I just wanted to say, my friends, that I appreciate your support for free markets. I also like free markets, my friends.

    I know how to make markets free.

    I know how to make the economy freer.

    We will lower taxes.

    We will defeat this enemy.

    My friends, I just have two words.

    Bill Ayers.

  184. Mr. Nice Guy, I believe in global warming, I just do not think humans have a (measurable) impact on it. Can you explain global warming on Mars? What about the Little Ice Age?

  185. It’s really funny that whatever weakness Obama has, Palin has it ten times worse.

  186. Free health care !

  187. “Isn’t it obvious?”

    No.

    *shrug* We got people who couldn’t believe that anyone would think Kerry was winning on the debate threads four years ago.

    There’s no accounting for taste, I guess.

  188. Damn you Sparky, that’s twice tonight 😉

  189. I can’t see how Obama won’t wipe the floor in the eyes of the voters in this healthcare segment

  190. “Coming at this from a scientific point of view…”

    Surely you can’t honestly think the crap you typed after this is actually a “scientific point of view,” can you?

  191. The thing they are saying about trade in this debate is just appalling. Why the hell can’t McCain talk about Smoote Hawley? The Democrats have been yammering about a depression for the last two years. The simple answer is to say, yes we had a depression in 1932 and one of the biggest causes was protectionism. Now we have similiar cicumstances and Obama’s sollution is to end free trade. Why the hell is that so hard to say?

  192. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are perfect examples of what the government could do for your health care.

  193. “we’re going to try to do” like in Cuba.

  194. This is so much more painful to watch than the last two debates.

  195. “Manage” heart disease and diabetes? Is this a reference to the “obesity epidemic”?

  196. Kaiser,

    I’m with you. But dependence on oil only continues the power of the oil cartel. Oil is going to run out — it’s inevitable. The country that kicks its dependency first will have a huge advantage over everyone else.

  197. Excellent answer on health care by Obama.

    McCain: put records on intertubez! save hlthcr!

  198. Argh, physical fitness programs and nutrition programs. Fuck these assholes.

  199. We have physical fitness programs in schools.

    That was Arnie’s first political job.

  200. McCain preaching about obesity?

  201. Because he’d rather talk about Ayers, John.

  202. Look, I don’t want to threadjack, but when they ask the folks with Phd’s in the relevant fields and who work in those fields every day if there is global warming that is effected by man, and the consensus, from the vast majority of them, from various nations, organizations, ideologies, etc., is yes, then I tend to defer to their judgment on that, yes.

  203. plumber!

  204. The Hoover card!

    “Hoover Sucks.”?

  205. McCain’s comin’ after my Oreos. Piss off

  206. While we are on global warming, the glaciers in Alaska actually go bigger this year. The winter is setting in in the artic earlier than any time on record. The tempature fell 0.7 degrees C in 2007 and seems on pace to fall some more this year. But hey, it is settled consensus.

  207. BDB | October 15, 2008, 9:57pm | #
    It’s really funny that whatever weakness Obama has, Palin has it ten times worse.

    Sad more than funny. Hey JSM just said he is giving me some money!

  208. “Spread the wealth around” is the new “tire gauge.”

    Exactly the same people who repeated tire gauge fifty times a day three months ago, thinking they’ve really got a winner now, are going to repeat “spread the wealth around” fifty times a day, thinking the same thing.

  209. I will strangle Joe the plumber with my bare hands.

  210. I am not watching the debate. I am only reading the liveblog. Am I missing anything?

  211. OMG I’m so drunk.

  212. Joe, do you want to pay a fine?

  213. oh man I’m getting so plasteeered

  214. Joe returns.

  215. “Damn you Sparky, that’s twice tonight ;)”

    I’ve been inspired by Joe the plumber.

  216. Who cares if global warming is man made or not? Cleaner energy is a good thing, anyway.

  217. Joe (the plumber) returns!

  218. In more important news, Leanne won Project Runway.

  219. “Why the hell can’t McCain talk about Smoote Hawley?”

    Uhh, because it’s just not a widely acknowledged fact that it caused the Depression?

  220. I want Joe the Plumbers autograph!!!

  221. Reagan Democrats.
    Soccer Moms.
    Nascar Dads.
    Joe the Plumber.

    Evolution bitches!

  222. Well, Obama shot his Ayers-ACORN wad. Now what?

    Meanwhile, Obama justs steps over the pile and promises more health care, healing of the lepers, and eyesight to the blind (NOW, new and improved with MORE Unicorns and Ponies!!!).

    What’s left for them to bullshit over in the last half hour?

    Ahhh, Joe the Plumber just came back up. I hope that Joe has opened up an account on CafePress and starts marketing himself properly!!!

  223. When he started talking about healthcare, McCain looked and sounded a bit like a funeral director discussing burial options.

  224. McCain’s health care plan is one of the few things I like about his platform.Not that he could actually deliver on it as President though.

  225. How about “Joe the Plumber”, Joe? Bill Bennett said pre-debate that “Joe the Plumber” would win the debate for McCain. I had no fucking idea what he was talking about, but now I do.

  226. If there’s liquor rationing I’m moving to Venezuela.

  227. Mr. Nice Guy, many of them have be bribed -um excuse me I mean funded – by organizations with an agenda.

  228. Because none of that is true, John.

    John McCain just barely knows real economics, you can’t expect him to be up on fringe wacko stuff. He probably can’t talk like a goldbug, either.

  229. Joe the Plumber is the new version of William Raspberry’s cabbie.

  230. What about the Soccer Security Plumbers?

  231. My God Obama is dumb as a stone. Can he say one extemporaneous thing? One thing that is not canned language? McCain must have had his brain rattled in that Hanoi cage. He should be killing jive ass moron.

  232. “But hey, it is settled consensus.”

    Yeah John, all those Phd’s never even thought to check that evidence out and have no answer to that. You totally did their jobs better than they did.

    BTW-what other scientific consensuses have you seen through? Enlighten us.

  233. Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:01pm | #
    “Why the hell can’t McCain talk about Smoote Hawley?”

    Uhh, because it’s just not a widely acknowledged fact that it caused the Depression?

    Like hell. Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a major contributing factor.

  234. Someone kill Joe so we stop having to hear about him.

  235. I will waterboard Joe the Plumber.

  236. Joe, are you Joe the plumber?

  237. Who gives a fuck if its man made or not man made? Getting off of oil is a GOOD thing no matter what. It’s such a stupid debate.

  238. Everyone is tired of Joe.

  239. We are so fucked.

  240. Fluffy, SPOILER ALERT?? Goddamn it.

  241. $5800=lie

  242. wow, it took a long time to get to “fundamental”

  243. Thank goodness I’m drinking cheap bourbon tonight.

  244. BDB,

    Obama’s answer about Joe the Plumber five years ago, when he wasn’t in a position to be buying a business or entering the top tax bracket, needing the tax cut more, was immensely successful.

  245. Why doesn’t McCain talk about the fact that more Americans are killed by illegal immigrants every year than died on 9/11? Go defend Korea and Georgia you angry, elderly fascist.

    I hope Plumber Joe’s daughter gets raped by an illegal.

  246. “Because none of that is true, John.”

    Smoote Hawley had nothing to do with the Depression? Are fucking insane Joe? What history books have you been reading? If there is one settled fact on like oh page 1 of the history of the depression it is that Smoote hawley turned a down turn into a depression and that the collapse of the world markets caused the depression to last so long.

    What else do you want to tell us tonight Joe? slavery had nothing to do with the civil war? Taxes had nothing to do with the American Revolution? Napoleon’s invasion of Russia had nothing to do with his downfall?

  247. Government healthcare:

    – No, we don’t provide lasik surgery for anyone over 50. You’re probably going to die and won’t need your eyes much longer.

    – Yes, we’ll pay for your gastric bypass even though you’re a big fat lard ass that sits around and eats McDonalds all day every day.

    – Yes, your 13 year old on-her-way to sluthood daughter can come in with her 17 year old crack head boyfriend and we’ll make sure they’re prepared to have sex.

    – No, you can’t have that new kind of medicine. We want you to take this old kind that the FDA hasn’t gotten around to banning yet even though it’s induced strokes and blood clots in 43% of the people who’ve taken it.

    – Oh, and guess what. You’re co-pay at your choice of doctor is $75, but at the local HMO office next to the welfare office, it’s only five dollars.

  248. Hey guys. I just have one thing to say to Senator McCain…

    FUCK YOU!

    And to Senator Obama

    FUCK YOU!

    And to Bob Schiefer

    FUCK YOU!

    And to the Joe Six Packs…

    FUCK YOU!

  249. Ironic
    There are so many thousands that agree…What % do you think are on the take?

    Jesus please stop with the Joe the Plumber shit. Jesus! Who the fuck told him that line?

  250. Can I put my $5k credit towards medical marijuana?

  251. Like I said don’t get me wrong. I am all for alternative energies. I just don’t believe it should be on the backs of the tax payers because the world has come to a consensus that we are fucking it up. I think the idea of man made global warming is a joke quite frankly, and just because the world is in some panic over it I have to pay more taxes?

  252. Bill Bennett said pre-debate that “Joe the Plumber” would win the debate for McCain.

    It sounds like no matter what, Joe the Plumber is gonna be taking it in the shorts.

  253. Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:00pm | #

    And all the “experts” in the financial community told us that the bailout bill was the cat’s pajamas. When your in for a shitload of other people’s money its amazing how easy it is to build a consensus.

  254. Uhh, because it’s just not a widely acknowledged fact that it caused the Depression?

    Put the crack pipe down. It’s the one factor contributing to the Depression that is agreed upon by economists and historians of just about every ideological stripe. Smoot Hawley has fewer defenders than just about any legislation in US history, including the Alien and Sedition Acts. You’d have to branch out into legal decisions and use Plessy v. Ferguson or Dred Scott to find something more universally disdained. And that might not even do it. You might have to drag out the 3/5th’s Compromise or the Trail of Tears or something.

  255. Please tell me that by some miracle neither of these people will be our next POTUS?

  256. And at the last minute, having exhausted all alternatives, McCain selects a successful strategy and runs against Congress.

    And then promptly drops it.

  257. Joe, I’m available to work as your Agent. My commission is 15%, right after Obama gets his share …

  258. ABORTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEEYEEEAW

  259. You are right Joe. McCain could never talk about history or economics. No one would understand what he is talking about. If you are any indication of the level of historical literacy in this country, why bother?

  260. Yes
    We are totally fucked.

  261. Mccain a federalist? There’s a good joke for ya….

  262. The one merciful thing about this campaign is that we have not been subjected to blather about the “judges” issue. You know, until right this instant.

  263. Smoote Hawley had nothing to do with the Depression?

    No, it has nothing to do with anything being discussed in contemporary politics.

    Deep breaths, John. Easy, big fella. Easy now.

  264. Justice Breyer? Obama voted on that?

  265. I nominate Joe the Plumber (TM) @ 10:05 for thread winner.

  266. “There are so many thousands that agree…What % do you think are on the take? ”

    So many thousands. It is called “funding” often via tax dollars. Funding, they want to keep getting funding.

  267. JOE THE PLUMBER FOR THE SUPREME COURT!

  268. Oh goody, I wonder what sort of ideological standards McCain would appoint to the Supreme Court.

  269. more Americans are killed by illegal immigrants every year than died on 9/11

    What the fuck

  270. John, you’re funny.

    Ha ha.

  271. “Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a major contributing factor.”

    Well, that’s a sample you can certainly generalize from! I mean, certainly economists don’t question that Smoot-Hawley caused the Depression…

    Like the guy who just won the Nobel in that subject?

  272. The most important thing is to “provide fairness and justice to the American people” or uphold and protect the Constitution. You know, same thing.

  273. Both of these assholes are about as anti-1st amendment as you can get. Any rights you have should be subject to popular vote did I just hear that?

  274. BTW-what other scientific consensuses have you seen through? Enlighten us.

    There are no other consensus you moron because that is not how science is done. Every other field of science is done through experimentation and predicable and repeatable results. Only global warming is settled by “consensus”. Just because someone in a lab coat tells you its true doesn’t mean it is. There are lots of reputable scientists who don’t buy global warming or if they do think the predictions made about it are wildly out of line. they are in the minority but that doesn’t mean they are not right.

  275. Ledbetter was correctly decided. It’s up to congress to ‘fix the glitch’ if they want to

  276. ha! abortion! time for all good Republicans to grab their weenies and bellow in their best William F. Buckley voice, “God and Morality! God and Morality! Decency! Decency!”

  277. Reason bloggers, if you’re going to list all the places McCain is not a federalist, you’re going to miss the next twenty minutes of awesome, awesome debating.

  278. “I’d love to hear whether Obama thinks the Second Amendment should apply to the states.”

    I’d love to hear someone ask McCain if he even knows what incorporation is.

  279. Here comes the infanticide stuff.

  280. And inferring a right to ‘equal pay’ in the constitution is about the worse thing I’ve ever heard.

  281. Yes! McCain is taking Weigel’s advice.
    I bet he blows it though.C’mon John Wave that bloody baby!

  282. OMG Obama, please don’t talk about Ledbetter. I’d like to vote for you, but I can’t do it if you talk like that.

    Talk sweet to me. I like it when you do that “right to privacy” thing. Do it again.

  283. MNG, produce a link to Krugman saying that Smoot-Hawley did not contribute to the Depression, or stop being a dick.

    Link. Produce it.

    Since you almost certainly won’t find such a link, produce a link to a credible economist or historian who is willing to step up to the plate to defend Smoot-Hawley.

    Robert Reich is neither an economist nor a historian, by the way.

  284. Obama says that judges should ignore the law and just allow Betty to bring her case, dammit!

  285. McCain’s theme of hammering about taking Joe’s money, raising his taxes, and spreading the wealth around would have worked ten years ago. Today, it just makes me want to punch him in the face for being full of shit.

    And Barr, fuck, he can’t even go to the third party Cspan debate this weekend. WHat is he, too good to hang around with the second string.

  286. No Joe no parralels. obama just wants to stick it to our allies by demanding the renegotiations of trade deals. He of course will meet with Iran no questions asked. Canada and Mexico, in contrast, need to toe the line and let us completely fuck them and like it. No, they would never retaliate and prevent our goods from going to their markets. Nope, they will just out of the goodness of their heart let us screw them and still love us for it. Renegotiate trade deals. Yeah that will help the US image around the world.

  287. Oh yeah!? Joe the Plumber? How about Lillie the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. worker person?

  288. “Strict adherence to the Constitution” might be aiming high. Wouldn’t it be an improvement if SCOTUS members occasionally noticed the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

  289. McCain: “We have to change the culture of America.” We do?

    What’s wrong with our culture?

  290. Yes there has been nothing but a clear and consistent consensus on global cooling warming climate change.

  291. Why don’t they ask about race & IQ?

  292. Why in the hell are we talking about abortion? Please! I’d rather the welfare dead beats be able to get an easy abortion, instead of tax payers having another welfare mouth to feed.

  293. There are no other consensus you moron because that is not how science is done.

    There’s no consensus that electricity and magnetism are the same force. There’s no consensus that vitamin C cures scurvy. There’s no consensus that species evolved from earlier forms.

    Oh wait, there is. Hey, moron, do you believe everything someone in a lab coat tells you?

    Climate scientists don’t use observation to test hypotheses, which they then refine based on the results, you moron. They all drop a bunch of acid, see what they find in their notebooks the next morning, and then agree that they’re all going to say it’s true, just to screw you.

    Moron.

  294. “There are no other consensus you moron because that is not how science is done. Every other field of science is done through experimentation and predicable and repeatable results. Only global warming is settled by “consensus”.”

    Sigh. Hundreds and hundreds of peer reviewed articles, reporting the findings of thousands of scientists engaging in experimentation, provide findings that, when read by other thousands of experts, causes all of these varied experts to agree that the evidence is there. Hence the consensus…

  295. What if Joe wants a partial birth abortion?

  296. BTW, McCain’s emphasizing “Joe the Plumber” to banish the “six-pack” fantasy. Why? The Busch wholesaler racket connection. It’s starting to come out, and he doesn’t want to encourage it.

  297. Like hell. Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a major contributing factor.

    Ditto. But Smoot-Hawley’s not general knowledge and won’t get any play in a debate for a lay audience. Joe the Plumber don’t like it.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I wish McCain had pressed Obama on his automaker comments. I mean, the Japanese have plenty of plants in Ohio and Tennessee, so they bring their yen here and make cars in America. And US taxpayers have been the backstop for the Big Two/Two-Point-Five/Three for a while with just about zero positive impact. I can understand why McCain wouldn’t insult Detroit, but then he shifts to some non sequitur about Chavez? Please.

    (And my response is way behind.)

  298. Is it possible to be pro-choice and think Roe v. Wade was bad jurisprudence? Or is it too hard for the majority of Americans to think about?

  299. Ladies and gentlemen, tonight the role of Tom Servo will be played by Jesse Walker.

  300. How about they just use a condom Obama?

  301. Mr. Nice Guy | October 15, 2008, 10:09pm | #
    “Speaking of econ professors I had not a single one, liberal, free market, or other wise who did not think it was a major contributing factor.”

    Well, that’s a sample you can certainly generalize from! I mean, certainly economists don’t question that Smoot-Hawley caused the Depression…

    Like the guy who just won the Nobel in that subject?

    Do yourself a favor and change the subject.

  302. Congratulations, boys (I guess you’re all boys — I’m not sure about “Fluffy”) you’re a lot more entertaining than those high-paid editors, assistant editors, chief editors, etc. from reason who are live-blogging.

  303. McCain “pro-abortion movement”

    Bogeyman much? There’s no such thing

  304. I don’t think McCain supports adoption by gay couples?

  305. “Is it possible to be pro-choice and think Roe v. Wade was bad jurisprudence? Or is it too hard for the majority of Americans to think about?”

    yep, very possible. That’s where I am on it.

  306. Allowing abortion to “protect the health of the mother” is an extremist pro-abortion stance? Uh, isn’t that even more restrictive than U.S. law right now?

  307. The best part about watching the debate on CNBC? When Obama starts speaking they put him in a box so they can show the Nikkei losing 900 points.

    Priorities, people.

  308. Math and Science ed. W00t!

    (if the govt backs that *and* nuclear power I’ll never have to worry about having a job for the rest of my life)

  309. the most interesting aspect of this debate is whether or not Horses is good (its not). Trout Mask Replica is however.

  310. sorry, I’m watching the Rangers game.

    The American People, and the Rangers, lose

    I’m listening to the Blackhawks game (no dish or digital cable), and the Blackhawks are up one at the end of the 2nd period.

    I’m not sorry

  311. Am I the only person that doesn’t pronounce economic with a long ‘e’?

  312. War on Dumb Kids?

  313. OK, everyone, the question is: what argument was this little offering from John supposed to be a response to?

    No Joe no parralels. obama just wants to stick it to our allies by demanding the renegotiations of trade deals. He of course will meet with Iran no questions asked. Canada and Mexico, in contrast, need to toe the line and let us completely fuck them and like it. No, they would never retaliate and prevent our goods from going to their markets. Nope, they will just out of the goodness of their heart let us screw them and still love us for it. Renegotiate trade deals. Yeah that will help the US image around the world.

    The answer is, Barack Obama’s statements on trade are not like the Smoot-Hawley Bill.

    Quick, John, tell us the three most important features of Smoot-Hawley!

  314. Moderator says “we spend more money…and we suck!”

    Obama says, “Throw more money at it! That oughta work!”

  315. Maybe Obama is lying about trade and it is boob bait for the bubbas. We can only hope.

  316. There is also a clear consensus by the experts that George Bush has caused economic distress with his fundamentalist laissez faire government run amok.

  317. Joe the Plumber thinks The Angry Samoans’ Back From Samoa is better than Horses or Trout Mask Replica.

  318. An Army of new Teachers? Do we really need to militarize education also?

  319. Lest we not forget that just 30 years ago the scientific world was at a “consensus” that we were in a downward spiral of global COOLING for the exact same reason as todays warming trend.

  320. Put away the video games?! Fuck off.

  321. Am I the only person that doesn’t pronounce economic with a long ‘e’?

    No.

  322. We are going to stoke the thirst for knowledge and then put a firehose on it!

  323. Yes there has been nothing but a clear and consistent consensus on global cooling warming climate change.

    See, you can tell global warming is bullshit, because scientists have changed their theories as more data was gathered.

    Sure, that makes sense.

  324. Joe,

    It wasn’t a trad edeal it was a tarraf deal. I can’t remember the percentages but it like trippled the tarrifs on thousands of different imported goods. It was straight out of the Pat Buchanan, we don’t need an income tax we can pay for the government with tarriffs like we used to under John Quincy Adams, economic playbook.

  325. Why isn’t McCain wearing a flag pin?

  326. The connection between GDP and education spending is that freer, wealthier nations can spend more on education than poorer ones.

  327. I’m finished, my friends.

  328. Where is this money coming from?

  329. “Why isn’t McCain wearing a flag pin?”

    Good call. My guess is he is a terrorist…..

  330. Matt Welch gets a 15 minute ban for scrolling.

  331. They’ll take my “Pong” when they pry the joysick from my cold, dead fingers.

  332. Yes! Throw more money at the children’s prisons!

  333. That is a good point Penguin. I wish someone would make it in one of these debates. We get to argue about how many trillions we should spend on education because we are rich. Other places don’t get that luxury.

  334. Econ question?

    What would you rather have, a wallet full of Icelandic Krona or Korean Won? I can’t wait till they start saying this is the worst economic crisis since the Panic of 1873.

  335. An Army of new Teachers? Do we really need to militarize education also?

    Sure. The teachers might as well make themselves useful.

  336. joe | October 15, 2008, 10:19pm | #

    No it means we should shitcan our economy and greatly lower our standard of living for a concept that changes with the weather patterns.

  337. so, Obama realizes that NCLB is an unfunded mandate pushed on the states…and instead of saying “hmmm, that’s not right. Let’s repeal the mandate” he says “hmmm…let’s throw billions of New York tax dollars at Louisiana schools!”.

  338. fluffy
    Check out Krugman’s book Peddling Prosperity as well

  339. If we have bad teachers, then get rid of them and let Bill Ayres run the school! He’s got some good contacts.

  340. America’s schools suck because we have too manty blacks and Mexicans, who have low IQs.

  341. McCain’s right about some of the certification requirements.

  342. It wasn’t a trad edeal it was a tarraf deal.

    It was not a “tarraf deal,” John, it was a bill passed by the United States Congress.

    I can’t remember the percentages Wow, no kidding

    but it like trippled the tarrifs on thousands of different imported goods.

    So, the consequence of not passing a CAFTA bill without labor and worker protection standards will be to “like tripple the tarrifs on thousands of different imported goods,” will it? Are you sure about that?

  343. “fluffy
    Check out Krugman’s book Peddling Prosperity as well”

    i read that book in college. It is pretty good. It was before Krugman got a NYT gig and went insane. It is on my bookshelf somewhere. I don’t recall him making the case for Smoot Hawley in it.

  344. We trail European nations in education because we have many more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).

  345. There is no imaginable field these two men don’t think that the federal government should be more involved in. Education? Health care? Sexually satisfying your spouse? Poor short game? Federal dollars will solve the problem.

  346. Precious children who have autism.

  347. McCain should have spent his entire time elucidating what HE believes in, and trying to put forth some sort of ideological vision, (if he’s capable of that). Instead he wasted tons of time being on the attack, which a hopeless strategy for him.

  348. McCain is really pushing for the autistic plumber vote tonight.

  349. I personally find the idea of public schooling to be a joke. For a number of reasons that I don’t care to get into here because the system is so convoluted. The main issue is just that anytime government reaches their grubby hands into something it seems to get much worse.

  350. Kaiser
    So what do you think is up with all of those professional organizations of scientists in the relevant fields, many of them international ones, that disagree with you.

    You think you have read the relevant data with the relevant expertise better than they have? You see the hidden truth they are en masse missing?

    Get real man.

  351. excuse me, gentlemen, you’re running for President, not Mayor of D.C.

  352. Sarah Palin understands disabled people. That is why she cut funding for disabilities programs.

  353. Doesn’t Palin’s kid have Down’s Syndrome, not Autism?

  354. “So, the consequence of not passing a CAFTA bill without labor and worker protection standards will be to “like tripple the tarrifs on thousands of different imported goods,” will it? Are you sure about that?”

    No Joe, it will just screw the people of Columbia as a reward for fighting an insurgency that was fueled by our drug habbits and laws. Those “worker protections” are nothing but poison pills. The poeple of Columbia want the ability to sell their goods to our consumers. They really don’t need you or Obama telling them how to run their government.

    Yes, I know Smoote Hawley was an act. It was a tarriff on nearly every imported good.

  355. TAO–

    The federal government has direct control over D.C., so it’s legit.

  356. “Sexually satisfying your spouse?”

    Government healthcare issued viagra!

    Just make sure your woman gets the birth control too.

  357. re REQ @ 10:22: There must be a corollary to joe’s law that covers that.

  358. How about we compromise and provide free abortions for all disabled fetuses? We can come together and solve the problem of special needs education!

  359. Matt Welsh!
    Don’t you be hatin on Austria!

  360. BDB – I know that, but still…D.C. sucks. I was born there and raised there and I never want to go back.

  361. This “debate” would have been painful if not for the 20mg of oxycodone I took.damn I’m going to miss it when it is gone.

  362. We got to stop the spending that mortgage’s your kids futures so that we can spend on mortgages *today.*

  363. Mr. Nice Guy

    Absolutely not. I guess what I am really saying is, is that in my opinion, I think it is bullshit. However in reality, as with many things in life, I don’t know. I just don’t know. There is data to support both sides of the argument and until more time has passed there is no definitive answer for the climate change.

  364. Radley, I agree somewhat about college loans, but do you really think that everyone wouldn’t be borrowing and in debt if the government got out?

  365. PC,

    Little heads up for you: if you base your political positions on the understanding of objective reality, rather than basing your understanding of objective reality on your political positions, you’ll be dead wrong a lot less often about both.

    It doesn’t fucking matter if you don’t like taxes. Human activity is causing global temperatures to rise, whether that happens to be a convenient fact for advancing your preferred political positions or not.

    You know, if your ideology didn’t suck so much, there wouldn’t be these huge areas where it has nothing to say.

  366. MNG,

    In his column “The Rove Doctrine” Krugman admonished the Bush administration for pursuing a steel tariff policy that would damage the world economy, and included the quote, “Smoot Hawley anyone?”

    http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/pkt/2002m06/msg00025.htm

    In a column attacking Bush’s Medicare bill Krugman used Smoot Hawley as the standard by which to measure bad and counterproductive legislation:

    http://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/asthma/249/Krugman-on-AARP

    BTW, your link is not to a Krugman essay or column. It’s to a column by somebody else that references Krugman in only a single line, with a single word, actually, in which the author represents that Krugman has said that assigning Smoot Hawley complete and total blame for the Depression is “incredible”. And it would be incredible to assign all the blame for the Depression to a single piece of legislation. It would be just as incredible to claim that it did not contribute to or worsen the economic dislocation of the early 30’s.

  367. David Weigel: If this was a serious country the Ayers debate would be about his crackfuckpot ideas on education (which Obama shares) versus school choice. Sadly, we’re not Austria.

    Is that some kind of Kurt Waldheim reference?

  368. How about we compromise and provide free abortions for all disabled fetuses? We can come together and solve the problem of special needs education!

    As long as there’s equal pay for abortion doctors as adoption workers.

  369. Obama: “Tax cuts! Health Care! College for all! Free ponies!”

  370. What about the old people that want to go to college? Why is Obama discriminating against the elderly?

  371. Kaiser
    On things I don’t know about, I defer to the experts in the relevant fields. In fact, everyone does this on issues that don’t have any ideological overtones. To not do so would be akin to being crazy.

  372. Man oh man
    The CSPAN post-debate calling session is about to start!!!!

    But Look – now the real entertainment begins, My friends.

  373. It requires all Americans to come together [and embrace socialism].

    If this debate is any indicator it appears that we are well on our way.

  374. Here is a question I would love to ask in one of these. What do you think of Bretton Woods? Would the lack of environmental and labor controls in the agreement have caused you not to support the agreement? I would love to see the deer in the headlights looks.

  375. We trail European nations in education because we have many more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).

    China has 1.3 billion Asians. Maybe they could loan us a few. Why not? They’ve loaned us everything else.

  376. No Joe….blah blah blah blah blah.

    So now, you’re acknowledging that your earlier statement comparing Obama’s position on trade deals to Smooth Hawley, which you felt the need to swear at me for disputing, is complete bullshit.

    OK.

  377. Matt Welch: do you think there is a market for a “McCain’s failed campaign” book?

  378. Radley, I agree somewhat about college loans, but do you really think that everyone wouldn’t be borrowing and in debt if the government got out?

    I just looked it up. Va Tech’s site says the annual total cost (in-state) is $13,600 (on the low end). When I graduated in ’95, it was less than $6K. Rule of 72 says that’s about 6% per year increase.

  379. I don’t know who was better at the policy points, but in the emotional imagery department, McCain’s twitchiness, gritting and grinding, and snark was offputting.

  380. Okay Joe. Your defense is Obama’s position on trade is not quite as bad as one of the most universially dispised pieces of legislation in history. Wow, I feel so much better now.

  381. Joe Wurtzelbacher is overpaid, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  382. Well fluffy, let’s not talk past ourselves, my whole point is that people that say it was THE cause are crazy. And there are such people.

    My quote that started all of this:
    “Uhh, because it’s just not a widely acknowledged fact that it caused the Depression?”

    It did not cause the Depression. Lots of complicated shit led to and sustained the GD. That’s always been my point about these things. Go back and look at my old Smoot Hawley posts.

  383. College for all!!!

    Great more fucking idiots dragging down the educational system and making it more expensive. Twenty years from now we will need something past a PHD just to establish that the student has basic competency.

  384. Bill Bennett looks like Tom Wilkinson.

  385. Funny, I always thought Joe was a mechanic.

  386. John McCain: The Autism President.

    Barack Obama: the Big O (those undecided Ohio womens sure liked him)

  387. Obama smirked quite a bit. He’s just too cool and smooth, too emotionless. No heart.

  388. Mr. Nice Guy

    That is where we tend to disagree it would seem. For instance, I don’t believe in God, however there are many great men and women, “experts” you might say that would tell me he/she is real. Do I just default to them because I don’t know? I will grant you this wasn’t the best example because climate change is a science and religion is an idea but I hope that you at least see the point I was trying to make. For every scientist/expert you can find for me that will vouch for man made climate change, I can find one that disagrees. After studying the information I have found I have come to the conclusion that it is bullshit. However like I said in reality I just don’t know. That doesn’t mean however that I will just default my beliefs to the so called “experts.”

  389. Crap, Welch beat me to it.

  390. Twenty years from now we will need something past a PHD just to establish that the student has basic competency.

    I always thought that a post-PhD degree should be called a “Chancellorship”.

  391. Matt Welch: do you think there is a market for a “McCain’s failed campaign” book?

    I’m looking forward to Tina Fey stretching her dramatic chops in the Lifetime movie Epic Fail: The Sarah Palin Story.

  392. Fluffy
    Check out p.93-94 of the Krugman book I cited above, he himself lays it on what he calls the “supply siders” who advocate that Smoot Hawley was the cause of the Depression.

  393. College for all. How long before the student loan banking collapse? We are gaurenteeing debt like crazy. The price of education is going up at an unsustainable rate just like housing. Millions of people have government gaurenteed loans. How long before the default rate sky rockets and the banks take it in the shorts on that?

  394. When I graduated in ’95, it was less than $6K

    My point is that even the lowest amount requires loans and debt for the vast majority of us.

  395. I always thought that a post-PhD degree should be called a “Chancellorship”.

    I like how you think, my young friend.

  396. We trail European nations in education because we have many more students from less academically talented ethnic groups (though our Asians and Jews compensate for this somewhat).

    Ho-kay.

  397. Kaiser | October 15, 2008, 10:35pm | #

    Yeah you alluded to another thing that bugs me about global cooling warming climate change. When science seems to pick up where religion left off I grow just as skeptical of it as I am of religion.

  398. “For every scientist/expert you can find for me that will vouch for man made climate change, I can find one that disagrees.”

    Kaiser, that is simply factually wrong. Even opponents of man made global warming acknowledge their experts are a minority when they decry the whole “consensus” thing.

  399. I’m curious: if Joe Plumber wanted to buy a business that would provide him with $250,000 in income, how much would that business cost? Would Obama’s tax hike affect the viability of such a business as much as interest rates, availability of loans and regulatory costs?

    I’m not saying Obama would be better for such a business owner, but it would seem that a plumbing business would have to have revenue of close to a million bucks to give the owner a $250,000 income. No?

  400. will there be a college-tuition bubble?

  401. So I heard a whole bunch of neat ideas except for the one little detail of how to pay for them.

    Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass tonight.

  402. So, I was assigned for my Constitutional Law class to make note of all the mentions of the Constitution. All one of them. Anyone remember it?

  403. So Obama, a typical liberal democrat in the pocket of the teacher unions, is going to “fix” education.

    Sure.

    He doled out millions of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge’s money to ostensibly “improve” the schools there and achieved absolutely nothing.

  404. well, McCain talked about the Constitution when it came to abortion, but in all fairness, I am sure he didn’t know what he was talking about.

    Maybe Joe Biden can help you. He seems to think the VP’s role is defined in Article I.

  405. Hey, is that the ‘man on the street’ panel from the Onion?

  406. Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass tonight.

    I didn’t hear either of them mention “cutting spending”. Oof.

  407. We trail European nations in education because we have to slow down for the lazy dead beat brats who just cause trouble and don’t do their work. But we can’t do effectively anything about it, because we have to make sure no one gets their feelings hurt.

  408. will there be a college-tuition bubble?

    True fact: Student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy.

    Invest in student loans now! There’s no way you can lose money!

    (Actually, you can buy stock in the parent company of Univ of Phoenix)

  409. “You should have run 4 years ago.”

    Mr. McCain was a bit of dick tonight, wasn’t he.

  410. TAO – actually a part of the VP’s powers are in Article I, the part about him being President of the Senate and casting tie breaking votes, more powers than are defined in for the VP in Article II

  411. will there be a college-tuition bubble?

    When Fannie and Freddie start buying college loan backed securities, I’ll go for the McGraw-Hill stock

    [Disco Stu] If these trends continue…aaay![/Disco Stu]

  412. “True fact: Student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy.”

    I cringed when Obama made the case that Biden always fights for the little man. He could have at least made the caveat that Biden sides with the little man unless a credit card company is involved.

  413. If you throw money at dumb kids, it will make them smarter!

  414. We trail European nations in education because…

    …we expect every child to complete (nearly) the same coursework in the same 12 years, rather than the out-of-vogue tracking into various fields that is (was?) common in Europe.

    Next.

  415. The reason why America trails Europe in education is because of the HS system. In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university education in the same high school class as someone who only wants to become a mechanic.

  416. We should buy every autistic child an electric car (not from Japan or Korea).

  417. Fiscal conservatism just took a shot in the ass tonight.

    Fiscal conservatism was the third man getting shot up in the last scene of Bonnie and Clyde.

  418. One of the reasons why we trail other nations is because, despite all libruhtarian attempts to say otherwise, we’ve had immigration by millions of uneducated people who don’t have a strong cultural emphasis on education. If you disagree, please point to actual studies showing such a cultural emphasis, and not from paid-off hacks.

  419. We trail European nations in education because…

    Most important election ever blah blah blah.

    I just picked up a “Previously Viewed” widescreen DVD copy of I Am Legend at 7-11 for $9.

  420. PC
    “Yeah you alluded to another thing that bugs me about global cooling warming climate change. When science seems to pick up where religion left off I grow just as skeptical of it as I am of religion.”

    I completely agree. Quite frankly I don’t see global climate change as anything but a religion. Religion is having faith in something you can not prove and to me man made climate change is just that.

    Mr. Nice Guy
    “Kaiser, that is simply factually wrong. Even opponents of man made global warming acknowledge their experts are a minority when they decry the whole “consensus” thing.”

    That may or may not be true, however I believe you missed the point of my post. The bigger point I was trying to make is that just because I don’t know something, I shouldn’t just default my beliefs to the so called “experts.”

  421. “In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university education in the same high school class as someone who only wants to become a mechanic.”

    I agree, but that would have all kinds of discrimination screaming in this country.

  422. MNG,

    OK, if what you’re saying is that it is not considered the sole cause of the Depression, well, duh.

    But I don’t know of anyone who has ever claimed that it was the sole cause of the Depression, so if Krugman devoted 2 pages to attacking such a claim, he was fighting a man of straw.

  423. The reason why America trails Europe in education is because of the HS system.

    However, when I lived in Germany (late 80’s), in many localities they were busy implementing American-style “comprehensive” schools (Gesamtschule). I don’t know how far they got with that, or whether other countries did it.

  424. People hated Ayers in the focus groups. Even Republicans didn’t like the Ayers attack. FAIL!

  425. Glenn Reynolds has become something of a windsock recently.

  426. “In Europe, you will not find someone vying for a university education in the same high school class as someone who only wants to become a mechanic.”

    I dunno. I was always in advanced classes, and there were also AP classes and an IB program.

  427. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, who should I vote for? I just can’t decide. The fascist or the socialist? After this debate, I need a shower.

  428. You know, John McCain is right. He isn’t George W. Bush.

    George W. Bush got elected President.

  429. The fascist or the socialist?

    Which is which?

  430. About 2/3 of the way through the debate (which I watched with Bob Barr’s comments throughout, courtesy of the streaming real-time video feed mentioned in another H&R article – thanks!) I noticed that the split screen of the candidates had the crazy effect of making them look like Siamese Twins (or is the modern PC term, “conjoined”?). How disturbing an image, but, given the Tweedledum/Tweedledee nature of this year’s DemoPublican race, how oddly appropriate and illustrative. Young/old, black/white, Demo/GOP — those “differences” are only illusory. This creature may have two heads, not to mention two yapping mouths, but only one heart, which apparently beats to increase the size and scope of government. How can anyone with even a smattering of libertarian sentiment in his or her own heart not recoil at the sight of the terrible, grotesque, ObamacCain?

  431. You know, John McCain is right. He isn’t George W. Bush.

    George W. Bush got elected President.

    BA ZING!

  432. Public works programs and tax hikes are coming to save us from the next Depression!

    Only took 10 years to work last time!

  433. millions of uneducated people

    Europe has also attracted millions of “uneducated” (I guess that means “non-English-speaking”?) people.

  434. Lamar, these programs are not funded by taxpayers though?

  435. Global cooling in general can refer to an overall cooling of the Earth. In this article it refers primarily to a conjecture during the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth’s surface and atmosphere along with a posited commencement of glaciation. This hypothesis never had significant scientific support, but gained temporary popular attention due to a combination of press reports that did not accurately reflect the scientific understandings of ice age cycles; and a slight downward trend of temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s. Scientific consensus is that the Earth has not durably cooled, but undergone global warming throughout the 20th century.

    thanks, wikipedia! (emphasis mine)

  436. I hate to C&P something this big but did anybody see this Ben Smith thing on Politico from a GOP consultant:
    Reagan Dems and Independents. Call them blue-collar plus. Slightly more Target than Walmart.

    Yes, the spot worked. Yes, they believed the charges against Obama. Yes, they actually think he’s too liberal, consorts with bad people and WON’T BE A GOOD PRESIDENT…but they STILL don’t give a f***. They said right out, “He won’t do anything better than McCain” but they’re STILL voting for Obama.

    The two most unreal moments of my professional life of watching focus groups:

    54 year-old white male, voted Kerry ’04, Bush ’00, Dole ’96, hunter, NASCAR fan…hard for Obama said: “I’m gonna hate him the minute I vote for him. He’s gonna be a bad president. But I won’t ever vote for another god-damn Republican. I want the government to take over all of Wall Street and bankers and the car companies and Wal-Mart run this county like we used to when Reagan was President.”

    The next was a woman, late 50s, Democrat but strongly pro-life. Loved B. and H. Clinton, loved Bush in 2000. “Well, I don’t know much about this terrorist group Barack used to be in with that Weather guy but I’m sick of paying for health insurance at work and that’s why I’m supporting Barack.”

    I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I sat on the other side of the glass and realized…this really is the Apocalypse. The Seventh Seal is broken and its time for eight years of pure, delicious crazy….

    Hilarious anecdotal evidence of how fucked the country is right now.

  437. Lamar, these programs are not funded by taxpayers though?

    Well, they’re standard public high school fare as far as I know. Admittedly, I’m only talking about my experience.

  438. Europe has also attracted millions of “uneducated” (I guess that means “non-English-speaking”?) people.

    Yes, and they’re enjoying every minute of it.

  439. I saw that too, SIV. That’s just crazy.

  440. The Government can fix everything. It’s the Government!

  441. I do expect that continental Europe WOULD have millions of non-English speaking people since, you know, that’s not their first language.

    Psst! I heard they have people that speak SPANISH, too!

  442. Yes, AP and IB classes are standard in many public high schools. The problem is on the “low” end, where we expect them to take the same subjects as everyone else, but dumbed down a little. Yeah, there are some “tech” schools (there was one where I grew up, Rochester) but probably not enough.

  443. Old article, from 1999, but one guy wanted to get rid of the current high school system and have kids going to college (or vocational schools, internships, etc.) at 16

    http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1999/b3644032.arc.htm

  444. # Ironic | October 15, 2008, 10:06pm | #

    # Please tell me that by some miracle
    # neither of these people will be our next POTUS?

    Be the miracle you want to see in the world. Vote for Libertarian Bob Barr for President.

  445. Yes, and they’re enjoying every minute of it.

    I don’t know what that means, but I was trying to point out that having millions of immigrants is not a recipe for a dumb populace as Mr. Line claims.

  446. “Yes, AP and IB classes are standard in many public high schools. The problem is on the “low” end, where we expect them to take the same subjects as everyone else, but dumbed down a little.”

    Fair to say. It isn’t that people are in the same class as underachievers, it’s that the underachievers are put through a similar college-prep curriculum but dumbed down so that even if they are diligent they aren’t prepared for college.

  447. CBS insta snap poll:

    53% say Obama won debate, 22% McCain, 24% say tie.

    28% committed to vote O, 14% committed to vote M.

    Obama/Biden is now 4-0.

  448. 11:00. Finally, I can watch Project Runway. Too bad Fluffy spoiled it.

  449. The first day I’m elected, I’m going to pardon Charlie Manson, my good friend since I was eight. Look, I have seen the book keeping, and anyone who wants to be president in 2008 would have to be crazy. Calm, cool, collected Obama. No, not me.

  450. BDB,

    Aren’t those “who won the debate” polls skewed by the sample? A disproportionate number of Obama voters are actually watching the debate
    and the sample reflects viewers.

    FWIW, I scored Mccain in the first,draw in the second,Palin in the veep, and it doesn’t really matter any more in the third.

    I don’t know if it is the format or the candidates but I just don’t see clear “winners” in these things.

  451. SIV-

    They’re weighted by party so that doesn’t affect it. It’s over.

  452. Most of the pundits are giving it to McCain so far. We’ll see if that’s reflected in the polls.

  453. There will be more Democrats in those polls, but only because there are more Democrats in the country now.

  454. rhywun writes: I was trying to point out that having millions of immigrants is not a recipe for a dumb populace as Mr. Line claims.

    No, of course not!

  455. Silver lining: If McCain did badly enough–and I think he did–it won’t be a close race. If it’s not a close race, Barr might get more votes and maybe it won’t be as huge a turnout as expected. The lower the turnout the harder it is for Obama to proclaim a mandate.

  456. No, of course not!

    So if the problem is assimilation, why not advocate policies that might address that, rather than policies which restrict individual freedom?

  457. ’cause every body knows what smarties the basic American stock is in comparison. In fact, Orange Line, I would hazard a guess you don’t have to suppress the sniffles
    when Bill Murray gives his great patriot speech in Stripes. Any one who doesn’t is not a real American. It is the only test that really matters.

  458. How did this thread turn into a natavist circle jerk?

  459. John McCain is like the 2001-2004 Philadelphia Eagles of elections. Both get asymptotically closer to winning the big game.

  460. rhywun asks: So if the problem is assimilation, why not advocate policies that might address that, rather than policies which restrict individual freedom?

    Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and work to block such policies. I’m just guessing, based on covering this issue for several years. Maybe Weigel knows better.

  461. Nobody is going to visit your fucking blog, OLS. Seriously, piss off.

  462. Speaking about the Reason Circle (previously called a “circle jerk”), has anyone noticed that those links from Insty that aren’t affiliate links to Amazon many times head to sites inside the PJM walls or sporting a PJM banner? Perhaps Reason should consider joining up! They have nothing to lose, and by that I mean no standards to lose.

  463. “Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and work to block such policies.”

    The presence of a powerful interest group means that individual freedoms should be restricted?

  464. One of the reasons why we trail other nations is because, despite all libruhtarian attempts to say otherwise, we’ve had immigration by millions of uneducated people who don’t have a strong cultural emphasis on education.

    The largest of these mass immigrations, of course, taking place in the first three quarters of the 18th century and consisting primarily of people from northern Ireland.

  465. Mr. Met is in the spin room. No joke. turn on Fox

  466. Jesus, Orange, the La Raza boogeyman is so tired. Do you have AnyOtherPointsToMake?

  467. RL wrote: “The lower the turnout the harder it is for Obama to proclaim a mandate.”

    Pardon me while I laugh hysterically. Turnout out is irrelevant to whether a politician is gauged to have a “mandate”.

  468. First there’s a mandate, then mantrimony, then its all man on dog.

  469. I don’t know enough about this joe the plumber, but he’s probably talking about a business that grosses 250K, which means that after expenses, he will be in a low tax bracket. Which means Obama’s plan will beneift him.

    Saddest part is that McCain is talking about spreading the wealth around when he wants to take my money and bailout stupid homebuyers.

  470. Bill Clinton received only 43% of the popular vote in 1992, with a 55% turnout of the voting-age population.

    Time magazine called it a “Mandate for Change,” and they’ll do the exact same thing for Obama whether he wins by a quarter of a point or by twenty points.

    http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19921116,00.html

  471. My question is: what would a McCain or Obama presidency do for the lamentable state of rock music?

  472. I honestly thought McCain was doing a decent job when he started out, but then halfway into it, he just started running out of steam.
    And when McCain claimed that Colombia was an ally in fighting drug trafficking, I literally fell out of my chair laughing.

    He really blew it on the abortion issue, too.

  473. PC | October 15, 2008, 10:34pm | #
    College for all!!!

    Great more fucking idiots dragging down the educational system and making it more expensive. Twenty years from now we will need something past a PHD just to establish that the student has basic competency.

    Yah, I went to law school in Costco. I couldn’t believe I got in, luckily my dad was an alumnus and pulled some strings.

  474. Lamar writes: The presence of a powerful interest group means that individual freedoms should be restricted?

    I really shouldn’t waste my time, but the vast majority of Americans – i.e., the people libruhtarians would gladly screw over – don’t support giving foreign citizens the “individual freedom” to move to the U.S. if they want to.

    And, if libruhtarians had a brain, they’d realize that everytime they support illegal activity, a JohnPoindexter-style idea grows its wings.

    If you want more, get a Reason contributor to say it. I’ll spend the time discrediting them, but not an endless line of sockpuppets.

  475. It’s really sad Joe Biden has to moonlight as a plumber, but it’s good he has a sixpack with which to console himself on weekends.

  476. The largest of these mass immigrations, of course, taking place in the first three quarters of the 18th century

    I believe that should be 19th century.

  477. Jesus, Orange, the La Raza boogeyman is so tired. Do you have AnyOtherPointsToMake?

    He can’t help himself.

    Still, it should bring one great joy to imagine his head practically exploding when voting for McAmnesty.

  478. An honest question | October 15, 2008, 9:32pm | #
    Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?

    In NC, I’m voting Obama for POTUS and mostly LP downticket.

    I split my “why” answer into two parts because of the hyperlink limit.

    Part 1, Primary factors: McCain is on the bad side of–and Obama is on the good side of–torture, habeas corpus, preventive war, strong diplomacy, and a host of related issues that reflect my libertarian values. I have substantial disagreement with both on economics. I observe that presidents have less influence on economics than on foreign policy and civil liberties, particularly those in this list.

    To be continued…

  479. This hypothesis never had significant scientific support,

    Neither did global warming until the funding all lined up behind it.

    Just sayin’…

    -jcr

  480. An honest question | October 15, 2008, 9:32pm | #
    Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?

    …Continued: I split my “why Obama” answer in two parts because of the hyperlink limit.

    To summarize Part 1, Primary factors: as Larry Hunter put it, “Unjustified war and unconstitutional abridgment of individual rights vs. ill-conceived tax and economic policies – this is the difference between venial and mortal sins.” (Especially since McCain isn’t great on economics, either.)

    Part 2, secondary factors: My impression is that McCain has surrendered whatever integrity he may have once had, and I’ve seen enough evidence to hope that Obama still has some. Obama is clearly smarter and calmer. Finally, executive experience: the campaign organization each has led for the last two years is the biggest executive experience either has had, and while Obama ran an extraordinary campaign–beat the Clinton machine!–McCain ran a pathetic campaign, even having to recover from bankruptcy.

    To misquote the American Conservative: For conservatives libertarians, “Obama represents a sliver of hope. McCain represents none at all. The choice turns out to be an easy one.”

  481. I personally find the idea of public schooling to be a joke.

    It is now, but it wasn’t always. Around the time that the Republicans were all calling themselves “progressives”, they latched onto the idea of schools becoming a way to manipulate the public into being docile (all that “citizenship” crap), and it basically went into the crapper.

    -jcr

  482. Obama represents a sliver of hope.

    Yeah, right. He voted for the bailout, and he’s also the genius who came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan. So, he fails on the economy, and he fails on foreign policy. Fuck him, and the pinkos he rode in on.

    Those clowns in the debate tonight are completely interchangeable. One of them is a bit better at the smooth delivery, but neither of them will take the oath of office as anything but a symbolic formality.

    -jcr

  483. @Fluffy | October 15, 2008, 10:01pm | #:

    Screw you, Fluffy! Thanks a lot! It’s not like some of us wanted to find out who won Project Runway for ourselves. 🙁

    I even had a legitimate excuse for missing the finale. A spoiler warning would have been nice.

  484. “…we expect every child to complete (nearly) the same coursework in the same 12 years, rather than the out-of-vogue tracking into various fields that is (was?) common in Europe.”

    Well, whether or not the U.S. is trailing in any meaningful way is merely up to who is interpreting the statistics. The bigger picture is much more complex, and Libertarians, like any other special interest group will champion the negative, in order to strike another blow to public education (taxes).

    However, clearly the main problem with U.S. education, outside of the fact that so many parents don’t place an emphasis on it, is the one size fits all strategy that is used in the U.S.

    The U.S. focuses on an archaic style of instruction which merely turns citizens into pre-programmed worker ants. There’s little emphasis on critical thinking, or a greater intellectual broadening. After all, that kind of education only creates “Communists.”

    No Wonder students don’t care.

    I’ve heard rumors that they’re even going to start requiring four years of upper level mathematics in school now, in an attempt to socially engineer scientists. Brilliant.

    Of course, this will fail, and cause public schools to fall even further behind, based on the erroneous idea that tougher standards mean better education.

    The issue of education in America is premised by the same lack of understanding of human nature inherent in a lot of conservative thought.

    In other words, standardize test them to death, and if they can’t grasp a subject in the same amount of time as other student, then they’re done.

    The problem isn’t that schools are public institutions, the problem is the way in which we understand how people learn, and apply those public funds.

    Obviously, some other countries use public funds differently; therefore, it can be done.

  485. Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the Plumber! Ayers! No? You sure? Okay. joe the plumber! Joe the plumber! Joe the plumber!

  486. I’m not registered to vote.

    From politico:

    “The Joe file

    Two readers with access to the Ohio voter file say that Joe Wurzelbacher’s inluence on this cycle will be limited in one way: He doesn’t appear to be registered to vote.

    (And yes, the freelance opposition research on Joe began before the debate ended.)”

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

  487. John C. Randolph | October 16, 2008, 1:14am | #

    “Those clowns in the debate tonight are completely interchangeable.” Disagree: Torture. Habeas corpus. Preventive war. Big differences in liberty.

    bailout: agree.

    the pinkos he rode in on: agree. I’d rather see a GOP congress to counter Obama. Don’t see that happening, though.

    neither of them will take the oath of office as anything but a symbolic formality: agree. Yet I still think there are big and important differences between the two. We must stop bombing, detaining, and torturing innocent people, and right now, Obama’s the only chance for that.

  488. There was only one class that I ever did really bad in: shop class. you know why? Because I was bad at it and had no interest in it.

    To hear most politicians talk, however, my poor performance must have been due to insufficient funding and encouragement. Every child must be able to make an equally good woodworking project or else we have all failed!

  489. Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber:
    The new Republican Party

    http://palinandplumber2012.com/

  490. Are any libertarians here going to hold your nose and vote for a major party POTUS candidate? If so who and why?

    No.

    Because if you vote for either of these raging statists, you ain’t a libertarian.

    P.S. Drink!

  491. There’s little emphasis on critical thinking, or a greater intellectual broadening. After all, that kind of education only creates “Communists.”

    Heh.. the ‘communists’ I’ve known have always been scary smart critical thinkers.

  492. After watching this, I’m glad I have an endless supply of confiscated marijuana to smoke.

  493. If they identified themselves as Communists, then they weren’t “scary smart critical thinkers,” but it’s the consistent equation of intellect with “Red Under The Bed” that has America ranked as an intellectual wasteland.

    But hey, anything to keep your taxes low, right?

    Our founders were intellectuals, and “elites.”

    Conservative groups, like Libertarians need to stop hiding behind their weaknesses when it comes to intellectual matters because it keeps them cemented in the Republican sphere of insular, anti-intellectual systems of belief.

    This forum is a great example. The amount of straw men arguments, and rampant cherry picking leaves the movement marginalized, and no one seems to care.

    Reading this forum reminds of how Chiropractic wackos rationalize their belief system. The attitudes are very similar.

  494. I’m running Firefox and all I see in the liveblog window is Latin. The other website I visit that runs liveblogs has had the same Latin text for at least a month.

    What’s going on?

  495. Jennifer, I’m viewing it on Windows and I’m getting the Latin, too.

  496. Yay, I missed the thread.

    Enjoy!

    (Sadly, I can take no credit for the creation of that site. But I wish I could.)

  497. We must stop bombing, detaining, and torturing innocent people, and right now, Obama’s the only chance for that.

    That’s a mighty slim chance, I’m afraid. Don’t forget that he’s the genius who came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan.

    Democrats have a real problem with military adventures, as Clinton demonstrated several times. They’re afraid of being seen as “weak on defense”, so they’ll happily pop off a missile here or there just to look tough.

    -jcr

  498. OLS, I really like how you flee when people actually try to engage you or confront you- like the cowardly little racist shit I know you are. If you ever grow a pair of balls and want to actually engage in debate beyond posting links to your lame site, H&R will still be here, and it will still be full of people smarter than you.

  499. Barack Obama “came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan?”

    You sure about that?

    Because I’m pretty sure he’s neither said we should attack Pakistan, nor did he come up with the idea of attacking al Qaeda.

  500. Strong arguments don’t need to be couched in misleading language.

    We attacked Iraq. We attacked Afghanistan.

    Attack Pakistan? Nobody has said we should attack Pakistan.

  501. joe —

    He *did* suggest military strikes into Pakistan’s sovereign territory in order to destroy terrorists. If you wanna split the finest hair in the fucking universe and call a bombing on Pakistani territory “not attacking Pakistan” you go right ahead, but it isn’t particularly convincing.

    And judging by the way Pakistani troops have been shooting back at us when we did try to do just that, I’m gonna go ahead and say *they* consider it to be an attack.

  502. “He *did* suggest military strikes into Pakistan’s sovereign territory in order to destroy terrorists.”

    Bill Clinton was pure evil because he didn’t take a shot at Bin Laden when he had the chance. The fate of the world was at stake, and Bill Clinton was worried about diplomatic niceties. Barak Obama says we should go in and take the shot at the terrorist and deal with the diplomacy later. Barak Obama is evil because…….

    Which is it?

  503. Lamar —

    You must be arguing with someone not me, because I’ve never said peep here about Clinton.

    If you’re arguing to the general point, I’d say that territorial integrity is one of those *really important principles* of international law. If Iraq had, in 2002, argued that it was likely the US was going to strike at Iraq and on that basis started sending partisans to blow up soft targets in the US, do you think *we* would have taken it well?

  504. And for what it’s worth, I didn’t say we should care all that much about Pakistan’s feelings about being attacked, only that we should acknowledge the bare fact that we are attacking it.

  505. Elemonope,

    I’d consider it a pretty significant, non-hair-splitting difference if the police shoot a burglar in my house vs. shooting me. Call me crazy.

    But the point is, “let’s attack Pakistan” would, indeed, be something Barack Obama “first suggested,” since nobody else has proposed attacking Pakistan. Attacking al Qaeda when they’re in the sovereign territory of countries that cannot or will not take care of them themselves, on the other hand, is not something Barack Obama first suggested. Don’t you remember the missile strike from the Predator in Yemen? Oh, I’m sorry, I meant “Don’t you remember that time we attacked Yemen?”

  506. John C. Randolph | October 16, 2008, 1:08am | #

    This hypothesis never had significant scientific support,

    Neither did global warming until the funding all lined up behind it.

    Just sayin’…

    -jcr

    I’m sure that sounded more rational when you heard Rush Limbaugh say it. There would be just as much money in disingenuously maintaining a controversy that needed more study, and thus more funds, rather than coming to a conclusion.

  507. That’s a mighty slim chance, I’m afraid. Don’t forget that he’s the genius who came up with the idea of attacking Pakistan. … Democrats have a real problem with military adventures…

    I generally agree, and I skipped that point the first time ’round because I think it’s complicated. I think what the Bush administration is doing right now in Pakistan is foolish and wrong. I think (hope?) Obama’s approach is different. I think he’d rely on, and be more successful with, diplomacy before getting to military strikes, and even then they’d be more limited–targeted raids on very specific high-danger criminals such as OBL himself. As you point out, I’m not on solid footing here.

    I could add that I think Clinton started extraordinary rendition and Obama caved on FISA, so I’m disgusted with Democrats in general and Obama in particular on foreign policy and civil liberties. “Better than Republicans!” is damning with faint praise indeed. But the Bush administration has been so shameful that I’m afraid my standards have dropped. And I’m convinced that McCain is worse even than Bush on starting wars and avoiding diplomacy–he was the neocon candidate in 2000, well before 9/11. So I believe the things that shame me most about my government’s behavior–bombing, detaining, and torturing innocent people–will get worse if McCain becomes POTUS. So yes, I agree Obama’s a mighty slim chance, but he’s the only chance I see.

  508. joe —

    I’m not at all arguing the distinction. You’re missing the similarity.

    1. The police bust into my house to shoot a burglar
    2. The police bust into my house to shoot me

    The common part of both phrases is:

    The police bust into my house to shoot.

    That’s my point. We can’t in good conscience say we aren’t blowing up shit without permission in the sovereign territory of another country. Just like we couldn’t in Yemen, the Sudan, etc. ad nauseam.

    Because we are.

    I’m not arguing the point as to whether that’s different from attacking the capital of Pakistan. It obviously is. But it and related actions nevertheless are well-recognized as casus belli.

    And we sure as shit wouldn’t put up with it if it were happening here. Imagine France or Germany saying to the US: “psst, there’s a terrorist that is residing in your country. I know you can’t hit him because he’s popular with your people. Don’t worry about it, we’ll blow him up for you!”

  509. Elemenope,

    When, exactly, did I argue that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan is not an attack in Pakistan?

    I didn’t. As a matter of fact, I wrote “attacking al Qaeda” is every comment on the subject.

    Nobody is confused here. You really need to explain to me that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistani territory is attacking al Qaeda in Pakistani territory. You really don’t need to explain to me that the Pakistanis don’t like it when we do that.

    What it is not is “attacking Pakistan.” It’s attacking al Qaeda.

    That is my point – that describing the wholly-uncontroversial position Obama articulated (If we have actionable intelligence on high-level al Qaeda in Pakistan and the Pakistanis won’t act, we will) is not the equivalent of advocating an attack on Pakistan. People who fudge the difference are doing so to misrepresent his position, by making it appear to be comparable to our attack on Iraq, or our attack on Afghanistan, or our attack on Panama back in the day.

    Your argument – that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan has a downside – is a valid one. If that is your point, go on and make it. Why you felt the need to defend John C. Randolph’s argument that Obama’s position is equivalent to Bush’s vis-a-vis Iraq is beyond me.

  510. joe | October 16, 2008, 7:43am | #

    Attack Pakistan? Nobody has said we should attack Pakistan.

    ———-

    Elemenope,

    When, exactly, did I argue that attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan is not an attack in Pakistan?

    Dude, come on. You’re slipping into self-parody.

  511. “In” You see that word “in?” What do you think it’s doing there?

    I’m going to eat your kitchen.

    I’m going to eat in your kitchen.

    C’mon, what’s the matter with you this morning?

  512. Did we attack Yemen, Elemenope?

    It’s a yes/no question.

    Did we attack Yemen?

  513. Yes, joe, we did.

    You are assiduously dodging the point.

  514. Bzzt.

    Sorry, thanks for playing.

  515. As I recall, the U.S. air force fired a rocket into a car driving on a Yemeni highway because they believed Al Queda members were on board.

    Rocketing targets in another country’s territory is widely held as an attack on that country. Shooting at enemy targets in a neutral’s territory is actually a big no no.

  516. Lamar | October 15, 2008, 11:47pm | #
    “Gosh, I dunno. Perhaps because those who obtain MassivePoliticalPower through MassiveImmigration tend to oppose and work to block such policies.”

    The presence of a powerful interest group means that individual freedoms should be restricted?

    Very well spoken Lamar.

    joe, this is a question you could ask yourself a few times also.

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