Fogies: Ready to Lead

Birds of a feather flock together, and the oldsters love Sen. John McCain. Pew Research Center reports:

"Among older registered voters (those aged 65 and older) John McCain has widen[ed] his lead over by Barack Obama to 48%-to-35% margin; he led among these voters by only 5 points in early September (45% to 40%)."

Maybe the shift is in the demographic that remembers the Depression, and wants someone in office who does too?

Comments

[JP]

Geezers are also more likely to be racists, in my experience, though that wouldn't explain the jump in geezer support since September.

[phalkor]

My grandma still honestly believes McCain is running against Hillary.

She is definately voting in November though.

[rhywun]

I wonder if the Dems have won this demographic at all in recent memory?

[phalkor]

define definite definitelty definative

these words no longer really look like words to me. fuck my handicapped brain

[Guy Montag]

Has that FY08 depression actually started yet? I waited all year for it and never saw it.

Side note: on just my third federal pay check in ages (since 1997 anyway) the feds took a major amount of money, the Commonwealth of VA only took a little. I suppose I should feel lucky that I got the largest share of my own money, until the new Congress is seated.

rhywun,

I wonder if the Dems have won this demographic at all in recent memory?

I doubt anybody in that demographic remembers either 😉

[rana]

My grandfather refuses to believe people will actually VOTE for Obama. He thinks people are outright lying to the polls...

[Tacos mmm...]

In other news, old people are conservative.

[joe]

phalkor's grandmother times several million controls Florida's politics.

[Guy Montag]

rana,

I suspect that I have a few relatives like that too, but guessing most of the anti-Obama ones think that the people who vote for the man should be run over or beaten.

Then again, they are the same ones who hate Republicans, so I prefer being a few States away as their heads explode.

[me]

In other news, 95% of people 65 and older can't remember where they put their glasses, much less who they are going to vote for.

Back to you Tom....

[brotherben]

Mom is 75ish and can't stand McCain. Not 100% comfortable with Obama either but that's where her vote will go.

[Hogan]

Once in the 90s my grandmother wrote out a check to "Bosnia" and tried to get me to mail it to Bosnia.

[George Santayana]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[BDB]

McCain has toned it down this week and put Sarah Palin back on her meds (she's banned from talking about anything other than abortion). Smart move.

[brotherben]

Como oyo va

[joe]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

...every Sunday, while you're trying to watch the game. And get the details wrong.

[Chuck]

God, Joe, you're a sarcastic and bitter guy. I bet your poor dog has cigarette burns on his back.

[Warty]

Once in the 90s my grandmother wrote out a check to "Bosnia" and tried to get me to mail it to Bosnia.

If it was a big enough check, you should have changed your name to Bosnia. Bosnia Ochocinco.

[Warty]

Joe isn't bitter, he just rapes babies, then eats them.

[sage]

I thought old people tended to vote Dem, because, you know, the repubs want TO STEAL YOUR TEH PENSION CHECKS AND MAKE YOU EAT COLD DOG FOOD!

[Brian24]

My dad just turned 70 and he is about to vote Democratic for the first time since 1972.

[Kolohe]

In other news, old people are conservative.

Vote in 2000:

60 and older: 51% Gore 47% Bush

30-44&45-59: 48% Bush 49% Bush

[Nat]

McCain was born in 1936. What part of the Depression does he remember? The part after Pearl Harbor?

[Episiarch]

Joe isn't bitter, he just rapes babies, then eats them.

Look, am I going to be the one who has to stand up for joe? He doesn't do these kind of things. When he gets frustrated, he just beats his wife like a good Irish-Italian husband.

[Guy Montag]

Nat,

I betcha he remembers the Officer's Clubs around PH 🙂

[FatDrunkAndStupid]

65 and over used to be a pretty reliable demographic for the Dems. Not sure if it is a reflection on Obama or the fact that the FDR generation is dying out and being replaced by more conservative seniors. On a personal level, my lifelong democratic grandparents told me they hate both candidates and won't be voting. So maybe there is something to the fact Obama is turning Seniors off.

[TallDave]

There are some weird internals bouncing around out there. Newsweek had him doing better among younger voters.

Anyways, best keep in mind what Lisa Simpson once said about the elderly.

[Guy Montag]

TallDave,

I don't remember what she said.

[TallDave]

Oh, and of course that RICO case against ACORN might also affeect turnout, esp. among felons and illegal immigrants.

[BDB]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall

[Chris Rock]

"John McCain is so old, he used to own Sidney Poitier!"

[BDB]

So ACORN isn't the right wing's version of Diebold.

John Kerry never spoke at a Diebold corporate conference.

[A Suggestion]

TallDave should institute truth-in-handletizing and rename himself GOP Talking Points Memo.

[James Ard]

If fogeys turn out like they usually do, and the youth do as well, then the election hinges on how many fake votes ACORN can cast. Now that we're onto them, McCain may have a chance.

[The Angry Optimist]

OK, BDB...here's your big chance.

[Asharak]

TallDave should institute truth-in-handletizing and rename himself GOP Talking Points Memo.

I concur. It's like he doesn't even know who it was that jailed Tommy Chong.

But since Eric Dondero is MIA, somebody here needs to carry water for statist Republicans.

[Asharak]

This is one of those things that would be an upside to a McCain administration if he wins. All of the bigoted elderly voters who helped him get elected will soon no longer have any Social Security and Medicare and then they'll all die. Just imagine how much that would bring down health care costs!

While McCain is at it, he could also reduce the unemployment and disability (and welfare) benefits of all those loser freeper types who kept showing up to Palin rallies to yell racist and fascist garbage. Then they'll all be too busy trying not to starve to death to ever open their mouths again.

So as you can see, it's sort of a win-win situation.

[James Ard]

I find it hard to believe anyone that wants McCain to win would yell "kill him" at a rally. Considering the press hyperventilating over it, it seems more likely he's an Obama plant than a freeper. How come nobody has tracked the guy down yet?

[brotherben]

I find it hard to believe that people would come to a blog named "Reason" and write such goddamned stupid bullshit

[Isaac Bartram]

I don't know how geezers are going to vote in this election but all my life they've been pretty reliable for the Dems because they were convinced the Republicans were going to steal all the benjamins out of the Social Security Trust Fund to light their big fat cigars with.

As long as the ballot wasn't too confusing or they had eniugh strength in their arthritic fingers to punch out their chad they usually got it right.

[Asharak]

I find it hard to believe anyone that wants McCain to win would yell "kill him" at a rally. Considering the press hyperventilating over it, it seems more likely he's an Obama plant than a freeper. How come nobody has tracked the guy down yet?

You've obviously never really checked out the comments at Free Republic if you believe the person who yelled that couldn't have been anything other than an Obama plant.

And it was most likely directed at Obama, but knowing the freepers, it could have been directed at McCain.

[Asharak]

I find it hard to believe that people would come to a blog named "Reason" and write such goddamned stupid bullshit

Was that about my post or James Ard's? Yeah, I admit that I was being a bit tasteless and I don't really wish for the elderly and proles to suffer.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

The geezers who survived the depression and can remember how bad it was are mostly FDR Dems, not McCain Republicans. The ones who are alive that is.

Keep in mind that 65 year olds hadn't yet been born when the depression was raging across the ladn.

For example, my dad is 80 and was only 10 years old when WW II started in 1939.

And, yes, he's a McCain guy. And not a racist. And is Pro-Choice.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Maybe the shift is in the demographic that remembers the Depression, and wants someone in office who does too?

Oh, yeah, I did get the joke. Not being obtuse in my comment at 4:37

[James Ard]

Asharak, I'm pretty sure he was talking about my post. I bet he'd also deny the Democrats send plants to ask questions at town hall meetings.

[Kolohe]

I find it hard to believe that people would come to a blog named "Reason" and write such goddamned stupid bullshit

W00T! I have the day off! Drink!

[Fungi]

What do dinosaurs and Sarah Palin have in common?

They both ran alongside McCain

[Oldtimer]

OUCH!! As a fully qualified geezer it sure hurts when you young whippersnappers throw me out with the bathwater. Just because I lived in the Roosevelt era doesn't mean that I didn't learn about "The Raw Deal". Some of us (maybe not many) actually paid attention for the past 70 years and read a book or two.

Can I keep my seat at the casino?

[joe]

When he gets frustrated, he just beats his wife like a good Irish-Italian husband.

You've obviously never met my wife.

I bet he'd also deny the Democrats send plants to ask questions at town hall meetings.

Actually, that's McCain that's been doing that. He got busted last summer.

[joe]

No ACORN employee has ever been charged with vote fraud.

No fraudulent vote has ever been shown to have been cast via phony voter registration. That's just not how you get fake votes into the system.

Some people can't admit that their party is less popular than herpes, so make up shit about poor people and minorities.

[BDB]

Joe, did you see the photo of John McCain sitting next to the head of ACORN in 2007 or so, right before he is about to make a speech to a big ACORN convention?

Yeah. That's why you won't be hearing much about this line of attack anymore.

[joe]

Oh, BDB, don't you understand?

Like every other losing Republican nominee (and George Bush after about 2005), John McCain is NOT A REAL CONSERVATIVE.

REAL CONSERVATIVES are going to keep talking about ACORN.

[BDB]

Except for Palin. She's been banned from talking about any topic except abortion.

[Let The Weaseling BEGIN]

No ACORN employee has ever been charged with vote fraud.

Lie.

And it's all sourced out well.

Several local voter registration drives by ACORN affiliates have been investigated for voter registration fraud starting in 2004, frequently resulting in criminal charges against ACORN employees:

* In Ohio in 2004, four ACORN employees were indicted by a federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms.[31][32]
* In January 2005 two Colorado ACORN workers were sentenced to community service for submitting false voter registrations.[33] ACORN's regional director said, "we find it abhorrent and do everything we can to prevent it from happening."[34]
* On November 1, 2006, four part-time ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City, Missouri for voter registration fraud. Prosecutors said the indictments are part of a national investigation.[35] ACORN said in a press release that it is in part responsible in these individuals being caught, has fired them, and has cooperated and publicly supported efforts to look into the validity of the allegations.[36]
* ACORN was investigated in 2006 for submitting false voter registrations in St. Louis, Missouri. 1,492 fraudulent voter registrations were identified.[37][38]
* In 2007, five Washington state ACORN workers were sentenced to jail time.[39] ACORN agreed to pay King County $25 000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. According to King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."[40][41]
* In 2008, the Michigan Secretary of State office told the Detroit Free Press that ACORN had been submitting a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications to vote.[42]
* In 2008, the Las Vegas ACORN Office was raided due to voter fraud complaints.[43]
* State authorities in Nevada raided ACORN's offices alleging that its canvassers falsified forms with bogus names, fake addresses or famous personalities. The secretary of state's office launched an investigation after noticing that names did not match addresses and that most members of the Dallas Cowboys appeared to be registering in Nevada to vote in November's general election. "We basically had the starting lineup for the Dallas Cowboys," Secretary of State Ross Miller said. "Tony Romo is not registered to vote in Nevada. Anyone trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot."[44]

Investigations that have not resulted in charges have also been conducted in Lake County, Indiana,[45] Cuyahoga County, Ohio[46][47] and the state of Missouri in 2008.[48] During investigations, ACORN has publicly supported the investigations of employees submitting fraudulent voter registration information, has fired them if evidence supports the charges, and has stated its concern with false information on registration forms.[49][50] Officials have stated that ACORN has been cooperative in these investigations.[51]

[BDB]

Why was McCain giving a speech to them then?

[joe]

voter registration fraud

Let's go to the tape:

joe | October 13, 2008, 5:55pm | #

No ACORN employee has ever been charged with vote fraud.

No fraudulent vote has ever been shown to have been cast via phony voter registration. That's just not how you get fake votes into the system.

The fact that people defrauded ACORN - turned in phoney forms that were supposed to be used to register people - demonstrates that ACORN employees committed voter registration fraud.

Not voter fraud (which puts phony votes into the system). Voter registration fraud, which does not.

But you certainly picked the right handle this time, TallDave. If you use enough weasel words, you can make it look as if handing in fake forms to ACORN, which they submit (as required by law) with flags noting irregularities (which is not required by law) somehow transmorgified into voter fraud (the casting of fraudulent votes).

Since you have those links and stories you cut and pasted about voter registration fraud, I'm sure you'll be posting similar links to evidence of actual, election-changing voter fraud involving ACORN, any minute now.

Yep, any minute now.

[joe]

Where's that tape with the Jeopardy theme?

(I don't actually own a tape with the Jeopardy theme, but I'll be able to find one before TallDave can find a case of voter fraud involving ACORN).

[joe]

But don't misunderstand me, TallDave. I'm not mocking your ability to find things. I'm sure you're quite good at it.

Oh, no, it's got nothing to do with you. It's an impossible task, because there simply has never been a case of an ACORN employee being charged with voter fraud, or of a fraudulent ballot being cast as a result of a phony registration during an ACORN voter registration drive.

Not one.

[joe]

"We basically had the starting lineup for the Dallas Cowboys," Secretary of State Ross Miller said. "Tony Romo is not registered to vote in Nevada. Anyone trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot."

Of course not. What kind of an idiot would try to register as "Tony Romo" and cast a vote? If you're filling in the form with the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys, it's not because you think you're going to get 22 fraudulent votes counted.

They don't accuse Sears of "being involved with embezzlement" when an employee of Sears gets caught with his hand in the till.

[James Ard]

If I was a left-leaning journalist, I'd give my left nut for an in-depth interview with a Republican that yelled "kill him" at a rally. Unless I thought something might be up.

[BDB]

James Ard--

He's having an interview with the FBI right now.

[brotherben]

If I was a republican that yelled, "kill him" at a rally, I know I would be clamoring for an interview with anyone to expose myself as the giant, mindless, koolaid drinking douchebag that I am. Hellfire, I'd do the interview for free!

[James Ard]

BDB, More likely the secret service. You and joe are certifiably insane if you don't believe ACORN is involved in voter fraud.

[brotherben]

But then again, it could be one of the left wing media folks resurging with their newfound populism, hollering out such things after being segregated from the crowd in Florida.

[James Ard]

BB, if I was that stupid, why would I care if I was interviewed? Haven't you ever seen The Jerry Springer Show?

[brotherben]

I prefer Maury Povitch, Mr. Ard, but I get your point.

[brotherben]

The curiousity to me, and I'm not referencing anyone here, is how emotionally invested some folks are in a candidate that they are so ignorant of. It is happening on both sides.

[James Ard]

Ben, I can't stand either of them.

[brotherben]

Mr Ard,
It was a joke about Maury. I find no redeemable value in bullshit tv like that. But I think we must keep in mind, no matter how painful, that the folks on those shows and the ones that watch them, all have the right to vote.

[MJ]

"... demonstrates that ACORN employees committed voter registration fraud."

joe, the distinction between "vote fraud" and "voter registration fraud" is an awfully thin reed on which to hang the notion that ACORN is above reproach. Nice touch in implying that ACORN is a victim here. Did Bill Clinton give you a personal lesson in weaseling? Hope it did not involve cigars.

[joe]

MJ,

The difference between something that could plausibly result in cheating in the election, and something that cannot, is pretty substantial by my lights. If it's not, then what the hell is the point of all of this?

As is the difference between a fraud being perpetrated on somebody, and one being perpetrated by somebody. If ACORN is trying to file fraudulent registrations, why would they flag them for the registrars?

I didn't imply anything. I'm saying it straight out.

[joe]

Hell, read the quotes TallDave pulled up:

ACORN's regional director said, "we find it abhorrent and do everything we can to prevent it from happening."

ACORN said in a press release that it is in part responsible in these individuals being caught, has fired them, and has cooperated and publicly supported efforts to look into the validity of the allegations.

According to King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."

During investigations, ACORN has publicly supported the investigations of employees submitting fraudulent voter registration information, has fired them if evidence supports the charges, and has stated its concern with false information on registration forms.[49][50] Officials have stated that ACORN has been cooperative in these investigations.

This is from the guy trying to prove that they're cheating.

[[Handle Randomized for TallDav]

Look, TallDave thought An American Carol was funny, for God's sake. You're not going to get through to that guy.

[BDB]

What will TallDave say on election night?

[MJ]

joe, you have a buch of fraudulent voter registrations on the books, coupled with the Democrat party's constant pushing for weakening voter ID requirements at the polls. What bad things could possibly happen as a result of that?

At best, your argument is that ACORN has piss-poor hiring and training practices, and obviously should not be doing voter registrations

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[joe]

joe, you have a buch of fraudulent voter registrations on the books, You do? ACORN flags registration forms that contain questionable data, or when they can't get in touch after three phone calls with the signatories. You know there are a bunch of fraudulent voter registrations on the books, how, exactly?

...coupled with the Democrat party's constant pushing for weakening voter ID requirements at the polls.

This is who finds ACORN scary: people who write "Democrat Party." It's a partisan chimera, ginned up by people who don't want the people they register to vote, because they don't like how they vote.

What bad things could possibly happen as a result of that? Nice naked insinuation. Show me. Show me a single case where a false vote has ever been cast because of a falsified registration sheet that ACORN turned in.

It shouldn't be too hard, if such a thing were actually happening, given that they've registered something like thirteen million people to vote.

At best, your argument is that ACORN has piss-poor hiring and training practices, and obviously should not be doing voter registrations. Oh, baloney. They are required by law to turn in all registration forms they collect. Anybody doing voter registration is going to have some number of spoiled forms. A few cases of people cheating ACORN, of filling out cards so they can collect a paycheck from their employer without dong the work, doesn't reflect anything at all about ACORN's hiring or training practices. You're holding them to an impossibly high standard that can never be met, because you want to be able to say they've failed.

If the government protected the integrity of the voting process as well as ACORN does, we'd be a lot better off.

[joe]

Fraudulent charges against ACORN, and the refusal by United States Attorneys to pursue them, were behind most of the Gonzo-gate firings, but we're supposed to take seriously this mud-slinging against a group that registers people to vote because the Republican Party and its volunteers are making the same charges?

Fool me once, shame on me....

[James Ard]

Joe, you're fooling yourself on this one. Any organization that encourages ignorant people who know nothing about the candidates to vote isn't helping anything. It should be a crime to regester someone else to vote. God help us if we are going to allow our leaders to be selected by homeless people.

[joe]

Thank you for your forthrightness, James. That's what this is about.

You aren't opposed to fraud during efforts to register voters.

You're against voter registration drives. You're against "that sort" of people being involved in politics, and this yammering about fraud is just a pretext.

You don't like poor, minority, urban citizens cancelling out your vote. Boo fuckity hoo.

It's gonna be a great November, because real, existing Americans are going to turn out in droves and kick your party to the curb. Hence, the whining.