Kind to Cows, Cruel to Interns

PETA recently celebrated World Vegetarian Week in Memphis by shrink-wrapping its interns like a couple of flank steaks, despite 80+ degree weather.

When officers inquired about the well-being of intern Shawn Herbold (bottom) and volunteer Thomas Olsen, a sweat-soaked Herbold replied that she was in pain and feeling nauseated from the heat after being wrapped in cellophane for 30 minutes, and also asked how much longer she needed to stay there. Byrne let her know it wouldn't be much longer and left her under the hot afternoon sun for 30 minutes more while debating with the officers.

The kicker:

PETA would never treat a cow that way, but I guess it's OK for an intern.

Commentary and photo courtesy of Mike Brown, a photographer for the Memphis Commercial Appeal. 

Lots more reason on PETA here, and the ever-popular PETAkillsanimals.com here.

Comments

[joe]

choice.

Discuss.

[Guy Montag]

I want to practice vagitarianism on the chick standing and holding the sign.

[Franklin Harris]

Damn it, where did I put the fava beans?

[Fritz]

Typically, they kill the cows before packaging.

[Josiah]

Now only if my girlfriend will let me shrink-wrap her in her half naked I'll be set.

[Josiah]

Minus the 'in her', obviously.

[Nigel Watt]

I'd think you'd realize this kind of weird crap would go with the territory when you volunteer or intern for PETA.

[Naga Sadow]

This story made me disgusted . . . but hungry as well.

[Gilbert Martin]

"PETA would never treat a cow that way, but I guess it's OK for an intern."

PETA is it's own worst enemy.

[Pinette]

peta did not force those interns to do this.

[Bramblyspam]

All of a sudden,
I crave a nice, juicy steak
PETA, kiss my ass.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Was it a paid or unpaid internship? 'Cause if it was unpaid I'm just saying they wouldn't have me up in there like that.

[Er?k Boston, Juris Doctor]

Does deodorant contain any animal products?

[homer]

mmmmmm, intern

[carl place]

The one in the foreground looks like a dummy, why not just use dummies for this protest/spectacle?

[J]

I hate PETA with a passion.

But, this wasn't an issue of force (unlike all the animals they kill)

[Art-P.O.G.]

However, for $7 an hour I would gladly suffer heatstroke to confuse and alarm passersbyspread my message.

[Taktix®]

PETA would never treat a cow that way, but I guess it's OK for an intern.

I can agree with PETA on this one: Cows > Interns

Now where's my fucking coffee?

[Bingo]

Hot.

[Jamie Kelly]

I want to practice vagitarianism on the chick standing and holding the sign.

She may look hot from a distance, Guy, but I doubt she has a Brazilian down there.
More likely you're going to get a patchouli hair sandwich.

[Jamie Kelly]

Does deodorant contain any animal products?

Not sure, but I know animals don't contain any deodorant products.

[Taktix®]

I want to practice vagitarianism on the chick standing and holding the sign.

She may look hot from a distance, Guy, but I doubt she has a Brazilian down there.
More likely you're going to get a patchouli hair sandwich.

Plus, she'll probably claim you're trying to oppress her... somehow.

[SugarFree]

Guess who also hates PETA...

If the point is to show women in cages is wrong, why do they have to be wearing STRING BIKINIS? Why do they have to be universially young and thin? and, hello, WHITE?

[Bingo]

Hahaha, I love the thoughtful look on the cop's face.

[SugarFree]

Plus, she'll probably claim you're trying to oppress her... somehow.

No, she'd be all for oral, just as long as she was on her period.

[Tonio]

I've never understood why Reason, and particularly Katherine Mangu-Ward, chooses to constantly provoke on this issue.

Sure PeTA is a cult of personality, but they raise some arguably valid points nonetheless. I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue since the PR fallout for doing otherwise is not in our best interests. We have other, bigger fish to fry -- as it were.

PETA would never treat a cow that way, but I guess it's OK for an intern.

Choice, Katherine, choice. Cattle don't have a choice, the interns do.

Also, petakillsanimals dot com is a total hackjob. PeTA never claimed that it is possible to save all animals all the time -- that's a projection.

Katherine has an unfortunate tendency towards credulity -- Belgian BBQ Tax, anyone?

[joe]

Bramblyspam,

Oh no you didn't.
Uh uh. No way. That shit don't
Represent 'round here.

[Kolohe]

choice.

Discuss.

that she was in pain and feeling nauseated from the heat after being wrapped in cellophane for 30 minutes, and also asked how much longer she needed to stay there. Byrne let her know it wouldn't be much longer and left her under the hot afternoon sun for 30 minutes more while debating with the officers.

It seems like she had changed her choice, but was denied.

To me, it's like violating a safeword, which then means it's assault and battery.

[Guy Montag]

Plus, she'll probably claim you're trying to oppress her... somehow.

Probably later, but she looks ready to smell the glove now baby!

[joe]

Hahaha, I love the thoughtful look on the cop's face.

Hmmmmm...I know I'm supposed to kick somebody's ass...

[Warren]

PETA is the biggest douche-bag organization ever. If you care about animals there are plenty of respectable organizations you could support. Like the SPCA or Humane Society. PeTA is founded on the fucked up notion that the welfare of animals should be granted supremacy over the welfare of people. Indeed, if you examine their agenda you'll see that they care far more about making people suffer than improving animal welfare. They have a long history of supporting terrorists like Rodney Coronado and ELF.

[Chris Potter]

PETA is strawmanning here. No true carnivore would leave steak out in the heat and blazing sun for an hour. That's just sinful.

[joe]

Kolohe,

Look at the picture, at the loose end of the cellophane flapping. They weren't physically trapped there.

[First Little Pig as One Sick F]

mmmmmmm... I want one! Do they sell by the pound?

[?]

Tonio: Choice, Katherine, choice. Cattle don't have a choice, the interns do.

That kinda throws the whole premise of the demonstration into question.

[Tonio]

that she was in pain and feeling nauseated from the heat after being wrapped in cellophane for 30 minutes, and also asked how much longer she needed to stay there. Byrne let her know it wouldn't be much longer and left her under the hot afternoon sun for 30 minutes more while debating with the officers.

OK, not the best call on Byrne's part, but one consistent with anti-abortion and PeTA fringe activism.

However, I'm missing the part where Byrne was holding a gun to her head, where the intern said "no, get me out of here." Suspect that the cops would have loved a chance to bust someone, and sure they could have found some reason to arrest Byrne or intervene.

[Chris Potter]

choice.

Discuss.

Ha! This is rich. So, joe, you're now saying employees who have bad working conditions deserve no sympathy because they are free to quit at any time?

I mean, I agree with you and all, I just wonder how it fits into your big picture is all.

[Mike Laursen]

choice.

Discuss.

You're right.

(Ow, hurt to say that.)

[Guy Montag]

CP,

Thank you for putting up with him so I don't have to, and post the juicy bits!

Just like SugarFree and his femanazi posts 🙂

[Chris Potter]

That said, I really don't see how this isn't an OSHA violation.

[Ryan]

Is PETA promoting vegetarianism or cannibalism?

[Guy Montag]

Ryan,

Keep up. Vagitarianism.

[Mike Laursen]

Dear PETA. Just a suggestion: A great way to celebrate World Vegetarian Week would be to treat people to some free, tasty vegetarian food.

[Guy Montag]

CP,

OSHA should be abolished.

[anon]

Coaxed.

Discuss.

[SugarFree]

I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue

It's because the animal rights movement is about eventually making the consumption of meat illegal. They convince enough people, they vote or petition or heath board bullshit meat into being illegal and minority rights are violated. Libertarians are concerned with political minority rights.

And if anyone wants to scream "Slippery Slope!" I point them to the runaway train of tobacco prohibition and remind them that the slippery slope is, in fact, their asshole.

[Guy Montag]

Dear PETA. Just a suggestion: A great way to celebrate World Vegetarian Week would be to treat people to some free, tasty vegetarian food.

PETA to Mike Larsen:
Sorry, we used it all to make ethanol for our trendy green hybrid cars.

[Tonio]

If you care about animals there are plenty of respectable organizations you could support. Like the SPCA or Humane Society.

Agreed. But like any fringe group PeTA defines the leading edge ideology and makes groups like SPCA and HSUS seem more reasonable. Good cop, bad cop and all.

PeTA is founded on the fucked up notion that the welfare of animals should be granted supremacy over the welfare of people.

Do they explicitly say this, or are you projecting this? There's a tendency among PeTA opponents to conflate their stance that animals have rights that might under some circumstances limit human actions with the notion that animals have more rights than humans.

Indeed, if you examine their agenda you'll see that they care far more about making people suffer than improving animal welfare.

Example, please.

Look Katherine, over there, the aliens just landed! [sfx: sound of journalist scurrying after false lead like Skrat in "Ice Age" pursuing the elusive acorn]

[MP]

It would have been truly ironic if one of these protesters had died. And based on the description of the conditions, they were truly at serious risk.

Not that I'm wishing they had died. This may not have been an issue of force, but it is clearly an issue of bad choices.

I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue

Why not poke fun at the bad choices made by individuals?

[Mike]

PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

Yum!

[Guy Montag]

Some nice leather shoes that PETA chick has on. Interesting design too.

[The Other White Meat]

Oh yeah, there was choice involved. The choice of the trust-funder PETA chick to convince some loser interns to do this or to try to shrink wrap a live cow herself.

[Elemenope]

It seems like she had changed her choice, but was denied.

To me, it's like violating a safeword, which then means it's assault and battery.

That reads a helluva lot into her comment. After all, if she really wanted out, the cops were right there. It wouldn't be hard to convince a pig to pork the PETA.

[Tonio]

It's because the animal rights movement is about eventually making the consumption of meat illegal.

That defines the outer fringe of the movement. Like the hardcore anti-abortion people (with whom PeTA shares more similarities than either group would like to admit) they are never going to acheive their goals(*).

The vast majority of AR supporters will drop off once certain goals are achieved -- real reforms in factory farming and slaughtering.

(*) OK, meat might be illegal or practically unavailable within some readers' lifetimes, but probably more because of worldwide food shortages than AR activism.

[SugarFree]

PETA has compared having a pet to human slavery. An episode of Bullshit! has the video. It's a speech given by the woman in PETA who condemns animal testing and is an insulin-dependent diabetic, a medication that only exists through animal experimentation and used to be made with animals during a portion of the time she was insulin-dependent.

PETA is the idiot fringe of the animal rights movement and only exists to make anyone truly interested in animal rights look like maniacs.

PETA is the Eric Dondero of animal rights.

[Invisible Finger]

and also asked how much longer she needed to stay there.

and

Cattle don't have a choice, the interns do.

You can safely categorize these interns as "cattle" rather than "human".

[Guy Montag]

Tonio,

PeTA is founded on the fucked up notion that the welfare of animals should be granted supremacy over the welfare of people.

Do they explicitly say this, or are you projecting this?

The phrase "Meat is Murder" (look back at the picture) says that, with a different set of words.

[Guy Montag]

Cattle can stomp you harder than humans can if you piss them off.

[SugarFree]

Tonio,

The vast majority of AR supporters will drop off once certain goals are achieved

They said that about MADD too.

[Guy Montag]

I suggest a government study to examine this problem . . .

[Tonio]

Tonio: I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue

MP: Why not poke fun at the bad choices made by individuals?

Because it's too easy for our political opponents to use our principled opposition to child and animal welfare causes to paint us as hard-hearted nutjobs. I feel our efforts would be better spent on popular, winnable causes.

We can pick our battles. KM-W consistently chooses...unwisely.

[Anonymoose.]

I love animals, as long as they're prepared correctly.

[Chris Potter]

Tonio,

Hard hearted nutjobs that oppose wrapping people up in plastic and leaving them out in the sun for an hour?

[MP]

Because it's too easy for our political opponents to use our principled opposition to child and animal welfare causes to paint us as hard-hearted nutjobs.

Sorry, but I don't think that pointing out that this was a stupid, life-threating stunt done, unintentionally ironically, in the name of saving the lives of animals, makes me a hard-hearted nutjob.

[Rhywun]

The one in the foreground looks like a dummy, why not just use dummies for this protest/spectacle?

I think they're all dummies, but that's just my opinion.

[Guy Montag]

Because it's too easy for our political opponents to use our principled opposition to child and animal welfare causes . . .

What on earth are you talking about?

If we had our way, EVERY child would be well educated and employed. Well fed with the finest meats and fish from the best operating farms in the world.

[Guy Montag]

Well, every child whose parents chose to send them to the finest schools and feed them well, of course.

[Tonio]

PETA is the Eric Dondero of animal rights.

Ouch. Good point. Now that's an argument with traction!

They said that about MADD too.

AFAIK, the neo-prohibitionist movement is monolithic -- MADD seems to be the only organization involved in this cause. There is a whole range of animal rights and animal welfare organizations from (radical) ALF to (tame) SPCA.

Once McDonalds caved to some of the milder demands about poultry and egg production, PeTA lost a lot of support from people who were into limited goals.

[Guy Montag]

Ugh, this thread is driving me to Morton's.

[Elemenope]

If we had our way, EVERY child would be well educated and employed. Well fed with the finest meats and fish from the best operating farms in the world.

The market shall provide great and plentiful bounty!

Join us now in our prayer....

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm..........
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm..........
Freeeeeeeeeee markets and lower taxesssssssss.........
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

[Guy Montag]

Hark, I hear the sound of a Socialists jackboots coming in to police the commune.

[Peter]

Reading "Reason" is usually the worst thing that can happen to a human being, but in this case PETA easily takes the cake.

[Tonio]

Sorry, but I don't think that pointing out that this was a stupid, life-threating stunt done, unintentionally ironically, in the name of saving the lives of animals, makes me a hard-hearted nutjob.

No, it doesn't. That's not what I wrote.

The constant harping on any effort to improve animal welfare is what I'm talking about. I'm not using the phrase "our political opponents" as a shorthand for "me."

These are criticisms levelled against us from the moderate left. Whether or not they're valid, we do have an image problem here. If you stay inside the comfortable bubble of libertarian/conservative thought you'll never experience this.

[Francisco Torres]

Joe,
choice.

Discuss.

Yes, it is her choice. F*ck her... Better yet, I'll do it.

[Francisco Torres]

I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue since the PR fallout for doing otherwise is not in our best interests. We have other, bigger fish to fry -- as it were.

The problem here is not their freedom to wrap themselves with Saran Wrap, or that they do not like meat, but their lobbying efforts, in clear violation of people's right to consume meat.

[DBX]

No Francisco, the problem is PETA's grotesque hypocrisy. LIke a lot of self-anointed "animal lovers" they simply abuse humans instead.

[Nephilium]

Tonio:

How about the Holocaust on your Plate ad campaign from PETA? And why do they only throw red paint on people wearing fur... I want to see them toss paint onto some bikers wearing leather jackets... and as to saying that you can't save every animal... look up Jerry Greenwalt and the hell he went through.

PETA is a bunch of hypocritical cocks.

Nephilium

[Number 6]

How about this: it was a silly protest and the person in charge of it failed to take care of the people left on the pavement.
Those facts have no bearing at all on whether the arguments advanced by animal rights folks hold water. They don't even have that much to say about PETA as an organization.*

*No, I'm not a PETA fan, or even an animal rights guy. But pretending this incident has any bearing on the wider discussion of that issue is silly. It was an amusing picture and anecdote. That's all.

[MP]

The constant harping on any effort to improve animal welfare is what I'm talking about. I'm not using the phrase "our political opponents" as a shorthand for "me."

That's a false image. Here on H&R (and I think among libertarians in general), there's been plenty of vocal support for (but obviously, of course, also against) animal abuse laws. There is no clear-cut libertarian line of thought regarding animal management.

PETA, on the other hand, is not known for it's reasoned discourse. Instead it's known for its intimidation tactics, it's efforts to implement their will via force of law, and its outright hypocrisy. I have no issue with pissing all over PETA all day long.

NAVS is a much more reasonable animal rights group.

[KC]

Vegans cannot watch television or movies that have not been shot digitally, which limits them to Steven Soderberg's "Traffic", Spielberg's "Saving Private Ryan" and a few others. Gelatin is in film. So vegans are not allowed to go to a movie theater that does not have Digital projection. In addition, the cannot even watch some DVDs because even though the DVDs do not have film like VHS, the movies were still shot and cut on film (which contains gelatin). stupid vegans

[GILMORE]

This reminds me of one of my favorite thoughts -

A 'vegetarian' who claims their habits are "closer to nature", stripped naked, rubbed down with a rib eye, and set free in the Serengetti

Meat is murder indeed. Lions find vegetarians the most tasty.

[SIV]

If you care about animals there are plenty of respectable organizations you could support. Like the SPCA or Humane Society.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Humane Society of the United States is just as radical as PETA. They support the ELF as well.

Your local Humane Society may be OK--if they have no affiliation with the HSUS.

[Choey]

Intern.... it's what's for dinner

[SIV]

I want to practice vagitarianism on the chick standing and holding the sign.

I wouldn't take that skank to a dog fight.

[Anon]

I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals, but unfortunately the "circle of life" means killing is involved.

PETA should spend less time bitching, and more time being productive, like maybe DNA splicing to make Beef trees.

Mmmm.. bacon plants...

[Elemenope]

Meat is murder indeed. Lions find vegetarians the most tasty.

Actually the meat is probably lean, gamy, and thus tastes liek crap.

[Tonio]

How about the Holocaust on your Plate ad campaign from PETA?

What about it?

My core argument, posted at 3:32 was:

Sure PeTA is a cult of personality, but they raise some arguably valid points nonetheless. I feel that libertarianism would be better served by staying mute about this issue since the PR fallout for doing otherwise is not in our best interests. We have other, bigger fish to fry -- as it were.

SOME...ARGUABLY VALID...POINTS

And why do they only throw red paint on people wearing fur...

Dunno. You?

I want to see them toss paint onto some bikers wearing leather jackets...

Not quite the same thing, but an MAL-attending acquaintance told me how a PeTA protester in a cow suit was protesting outside of the Mid-Atlantic Leather convention (fetish leather, not fashion leather). The nasty leathermen made PeTA boy cry -- without laying a finger on him.

and as to saying that you can't save every animal... look up Jerry Greenwalt and the hell he went through.

This seems to have been ALF, not PeTA. In any case don't see how this is relevant to my core argument.

I'm outta here people. Catch you tomorrow.

[Aloysius]

The interns aren't properly and fully wrapped in saran wrap, exposing the goods to germs and bacteria. They should cover them all the way next time, so they won't spoil as easily!

[T]

Also, petakillsanimals dot com is a total hackjob. PeTA never claimed that it is possible to save all animals all the time -- that's a projection.

Um, no. PETArds claim an interest in animal welfare and treating them ethically, but won't run no-kill shelters because that would take away money from their self-aggrandizing publicity stunts. What part of this confuses you?

[DJ]

Ron White said it best. When his vegetarian/environmentalist friend complained that raising cows for slaughter disrupts the environment by destroying the land and letting too much flatulence in the air for the ozone layer, Ron said he was helping the environment by eating the cow.

Tonio, how is tossing paint on someone who wears fur for fashion not the same as tossing paint on a biker who wears leather? Answer: the biker will kick your prissy little know it all ass, and the fur coat wearer will sue your prissy little know it all ass. If PETA believes in equality for animals, they should equally attack Hell's Angels as they do Manahattan socialites. But they wont because they're all wussies

[SIV]

NAVS is a much more reasonable animal rights group.

No
They oppose all scientific animal testing,
Support anti foies gras laws, and laws to ban the slaughter of horses for meat.

They are no more "reasonable" than PETA.

[TrickyVic]

"""I can agree with PETA on this one: Cows > Interns

Now where's my fucking coffee?""""

Just don't ask where the milk came from.

Choice?

I didn't know farm animals or any other animals have the freedom of choice.

Life feeds off life, feeds off life, feeds off life.

[MP]

They are no more "reasonable" than PETA.

You're judging their positions, not their methodology.

[Nephilium]

SIV:

Personal favorite Humane Society object lesson. If you remember the movie The Crow. If you remember when the movie came out... there was an issue with a stunt, and Brandon Lee died. Watch the credits, you'll see the standard Humane Society blurb about no animals being harmed in the making of this movie. Never mind the fact that one of the actors died... at least those poor crows flying around didn't get hurt.

Torio:

Jerry Greenwalt is relevant because they were protesting him for not running a no kill shelter. Something that PETA themselves doesn't do.

Nephilium

[liberty mike]

Peter-4:25 p.m.

Yes-if one is a real libertarian.

[SIV]

MP,

Yes. PETA is very effective. My disagreement is with their position, not their methods.
NAVS holds the same positions.

[Ryan]

Maybe Tonio is right. Where do libertarians get off defining the nature and purpose of rights and who or what they apply to?

[Bingo]

PETA is the Eric Dondero of animal rights.

Can't chortle at this one enough!

[liberty mike]

Ryan-

I don't think Tonio quite put it that way.

[Russ 2000]

Who is PETA endorsing for POTUS?

[liberty mike]

Please

Eliminate

Their

Asses

[liberty mike]

Russ-

Former Colorado governor, Richard Lamm.

[Paul]

Looks like lean ground beef, to me.

[kevin]

"meat is murder, but murder is also murder"

[Jon H]

"Why do they have to be universially young and thin? and, hello, WHITE?"

I'm guessing if they weren't young, thin, and white, someone would accuse PETA of a racist/ageist/sizeist display.

[Jon H]

When did PETA merge with American Apparel?

[Sam Grove]

The one in the foreground looks like a dummy, why not just use dummies for this protest/spectacle?

They did.

[R C Dean]

Sam Grove FTW!

[Kool]

TrickyVic
I always thought it was "Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life..."

Sam Grove, They did. ROFL.

[Radical Greenism]

While I'm not against the suffering of animals per se (we all suffer and it's natural), the meat industry is terrible. I think even non-vegs will agree with that. We need local, organic farming with humane methods. Ideally we'd butcher the animals ourselves, like in the old days.

Today, I'd prefer to be a veg over a meat eater for these reasons.

[Cindy]

Why does PETA never use naked men in their protests??? I'd listen to them a lot better if they had naked men.

[Jamie Kelly]

Why does PETA never use naked men in their protests??? I'd listen to them a lot better if they had naked men.

Looks too much like a big bratwurst.
And did anyone notice the panty-bulge on the chick in the foreground? What the fuck is she hiding in there, a hairy softball?
Christ, after seeing that, I may just give up fish.

[Cindy]

Mmmmm! Bratwurst 🙂

[Mad Scientist]

Does anyone, anyone, at peta really believe these sorts of stunts do anything to raise awareness or convince someone to stop eating meat or owning pets? Maybe it's just my personal selection bias, but I can't think of a single person I know, left or right, vegan or hunter, who would be even minutely persuaded by these peta dopes. Somehow, seeing a 4/5 naked intern doused in fake blood and laying about in fake shrink-wrapping doesn't make me think, "Gee, an animal died to provide me with ground chuck! Oh the humanity!"

Now, I'm inclined to believe anyone involved with peta is already insane, and I want to be fair, but stunts like this really reinforce that view. How does this sort of thing possibly promote their point of view?

[1]

I think those cops found a new interrogation method...

[Kwix]

Tonio | June 12, 2008, 3:32pm | #
PETA would never treat a cow that way, but I guess it's OK for an intern.

Choice, Katherine, choice. Cattle don't have a choice, the interns do.

Umm, I am pretty sure that between the Rump Roast, it's what's for dinner jokes and the digs on PETA somebody already pointed this out but this was not a KMW quote. Look again Tonio, it's a direct quote from the linked photo article/caption. If you have a beef(pun intended) with KMW fine, take a number but at least direct your flak with good aim.

[highnumber]

choice.

Discuss.

I'm not an expert, but I'd guess Grade Select.

[thenakedemperor]

Intern - the Other White Meat!

[the wolf]

I like my intern medium rare.

[David E. Gallaher]

At least PETA isn't setting fire to newly constructed projects in remote locations... just because they can.

As a peaceful anarchist, I have noticed a big difference between anarchy and peaceful anarchy. PETA obviously has not. noticed a difference.

Just as the injustice of slavery passed right under Thomas Jefferson's honker without his having a clue, so did his comment about "Patriot blood fertilizing the Tree of Liberty."
Some blood is patriot. But not much. Most has been communist, even back in Thomas' day.
PETA "blood" doesn't qualify, for sure.

[Joe]

Are you really free to quit anytime if you are shrink wrapped?

Seems like they should have a "safe" word.

[bour3]

How dramatic! That does it, I'm totally convinced. This teaches me; do not leave your shrink-wrapped steaks in the sun. Promotes bacteria growth.

[Thins]

How does Bill CLinton like his interns?

[Ogre]

Radical Greenism,
> We need local, organic farming with humane methods.

So why do you hate the environment so much? Compare organic farming to modern (yes, modern) farming:

Organic framing excludes using high yield strains, so more land is needed for the same amount of food.

Organic strains are not resistant to pests like the new strains, so more land is needed for the same amount of food.

Organic strains are less resistant to weather swings, so again, more land is needed.

The list goes on.

Organic farming is just a major scam for some people to make big bucks off of naive city folk. Wanting everything to be locally grown and organic is nothing more than a pipe dream. You must want to cut down every forest and every jungle on the planet to grow food, because that's what it would take to feed the world using strict organic techniques. Alternately, you advocate genocide on a massive scale.

[Harry]

I hope these interns sue. Please sue. Please tell me they are going to sue.

[HiThur]

LOL. Almost murdering a human giving them heat stroke... apparently, is NOT murder.

I wish I could have walked by with a dead cow's head and thrown it at these ass-backwards people.

GO TO THE AFRICAN JUNGLE AND GO TELL THE LIONS TO STOP EATING THE POOR ANTELOPE. They have a choice, they could eat grass. But they don't like grass. What is wrong with you?

Are you still very serious?

Let's make a mockery out of the human race. You know that plastic wrap isn't biodegradable? You know you probably just killed a bunch of polar bears by global warming because you use non-biodegradable junk to prove a point?

WAY TO GO SILLY GOOSE! You're an idiot.

[William Shakespeare]

Men have died from time to time, and worms have eaten them, but not for love.

[Lee]

I've always wondered, does PETA feed rescued mice to rescued snakes?

Just curious.

[Mark]

How on EARTH can you guys be so easily fooled?

Obviously, the intern CHOSE (remember choice? free will?) to do the demonstration, asked how much time was left, and decided to stay even though it was difficult.

Good for her!

Meanwhile, PETA is way ahead of its time - that's the problem.

PETA's main goal is to point out that our unquestioned assumption against taking seriously the harm we cause members of other species is a form of prejudice, called "speciesism" by analogy with racism and sexism.

The very most basic principles of ethics that we (ESPECIALLY libertarians) apply among humans - against causing unjustified harm - apply to other species precisely because they are capable of being harmed.

Our common ancestors with chimpanzees lived only 500,000 generations ago, and it is by the sheerest evolutionary coincidence that other species with comparable intellect to humans are not alive today.

Yet, even the most educated and intelligent among us find it difficult to shake off the world-view that all other animals exist for human use. It may even seem laughable to suggest otherwise, just like it was once laughable to suggest that women do not exist for men's use, or that blacks do not exist for whites' use.

But once we rethink our speciesist assumption, it is easy to recognize that the amount of harm we cause other species for our most trivial benefits is comparable with that which we have caused members of our own species in what we now consider the darkest periods of human history.

Take a look at the film "Earthlings," which is available in parts on YouTube, but you can see the complete version if you type "Earthlings" into "Google Video."

I dare you.

[RebeccaH]

Because humans don't count. Cows do.

[/PETA]

[highnumber]

Mark,

You have left me at a loss for words.

[Ayn_Randian]

Mark - I'd hardly call the overwhelming benefits of flesh consumption "trivial"...but like the man said above, you're free to go preach your craziness to the animals in the wild.

[Jim]

Mark said:

"The very most basic principles of ethics that we (ESPECIALLY libertarians) apply among humans - against causing unjustified harm - apply to other species precisely because they are capable of being harmed."

Well Mark, let's look at this. You say that the practice of Animal Husbandry, dedicated to the production of meat protien is harmful to the species.

Might I ask you then, has the cattle business resulted, as of this very moment, of more or less heads of beef standing on this planet now, as compared to 200 years ago?

How bout the poultry business. Same question; more or less?

Ditto, pork, and any other commercially raised meat, including farmed fish, shrimp, crawfish or anything else.

We might indeed harm the individual animal. But we absolutely do not harm the species in so doing.

Fact is, Mark, that it is our very appetite for such protiens that ensures that those species prosper, multiply and continue.

And if we can find a way to successfuly farm rather than merely harvest deep ocean and pelagic fish, the same will apply to them, as well.

*POP*!!!!

Yep, that's the sound of Mark's ballon o' illogic bursting asunder.

Enjoy your curds and whey, Mark.

Oh, sorry. Curds are murder!

Jim
Sloop New Dawn
Galveston, TX

[Spellchecker]

Poke around where the Xmas tree was, Jim. I'm the misplaced gift.

[Jim]

Spellchecker.

Sod off, you parsinomious twerp. I'm well oiled with premium bourbon, and MS Vista is acting up, necessitating my hurried post, sans spellchecking.

Poke a hole in the logic of my post, which you obviously cannot, or shut your pie-hole.

Small-minded picking of nits such as you've displayed, is less than the hobgoblin of small minds.

Be glad your mind is small though. It eases the pain for when you withdraw it from your nether regions.

Jim
Sloop New Dawn
Galveston, TX

[Urkobold?]

Jim,
LEARN TO SPELL OR FACE THE FATE OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT, YET TASTY, MILK-FED CALVES.

YES, YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM YOUR MOTHER AND PLACED IN A TINY PEN. EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE BREADED AND PAN-FRIED, THEN SERVED WITH RED SAUCE (FINE, GRAVY FOR YOU CALABRESE). YOU WILL BE YUMMY. THE Urkobold? HOPES YOU ARE PREPARED TO SUFFER YOUR IGNOMINIOUS FATE, BECAUSE THE Urkobold? IS REALLY, REALLY HUNGRY, AND THE CHICKEN VESUVIO WAS SUB PAR LAST TIME.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Poke around where the Xmas tree was, Jim. I'm the misplaced gift.

When the Night of the Long Knives comes at last, the Grammar Police will all be on the wrong side of the barricades and will be summarily dispatched along with the political and chattering classes.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sorry Mark, Wheat is Murder. Ever wonder what happens to all the little critters who live on Farmer Green Jean's ranch when he pulls out the John Deere and plows up the earth to plant them soybeans?

[Elemenope]

Sorry Mark, Wheat is Murder. Ever wonder what happens to all the little critters who live on Farmer Green Jean's ranch when he pulls out the John Deere and plows up the earth to plant them soybeans?

Not to mention all the little furry animals with all their little animal burrows that were destroyed when the land was cleared for farming to begin with.

I once laid this trip on a vegan who thought it prudent to argue with me (yeah, that's right, every carrot you eat is soaked with the blood of thousands...Cheerios are a perpetual holocaust of fuzzy rodents) and she damn near hit me before storming off.

[20-Something Hipster]

I'm a vegan and I agree. PETA = retarded.

[shemp9999]

[e-mail]
nice haiku. everyone else is stuped.

http://www,stuped.com

imentit

[wylde bill]

I wish all the PETA idiots would volunteer to be dog-food...

[CC]

I'd like to support PETA, but meat is so delicious.

[Douglas Fletcher]

"she was in pain and feeling nauseated from the heat"

IIRC those are possible signs of the approach of a case of heat stroke or heat exhaustion. Making her lie there for 30 more minutes could have killed her.

Clearly there needs to be an organization called PETI -- People for the Ethical Treatment of Interns.

[randy Ayn]

I like the Ogre's argumant above, about how organic farming takes up more land than modern farming. Perhaps the topic of of how much land is involved with growing feed for livestock could be discussed as well.

[John C. Randolph]

What a pack of sadistic fucking misanthropes.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

"the injustice of slavery passed right under Thomas Jefferson's honker"

Jefferson didn't ignore the injustice of slavery. He gave it quite a bit of thought, and he wrote extensively on how to go about transitioning people who were utterly dependent on their owners to self-sufficiency. It was a rather more difficult problem than weaning people from welfare.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

"she damn near hit me before storming off."

Not at all surprising. There are two kinds of vegetarians: those who choose not to eat meat and leave it at that, and those who use it as a premise to claim moral superiority over their neighbors.

The latter type can get positively vicious if you dare to gainsay their claim to superiority.

-jcr

[Pundit Joe]

Can anyone make out the price on the lady in the bikini? I might have some spare cash and I'm looking for something to do this weekend. lol

Remember, she chose, of her own free will, to shrink wrap herself and slap a price tag on her package. Hee hee.

How bad is it that I laugh at my own jokes?

[Milo Johnson]

It's so wonderful that even sexually thwarted thirteen year-old boys with brain damage have a place they can post comments. Carry on, lads, secure in the knowledge that the retarded really can't embarrass themselves!

[Pundit Joe]

(I had best be careful or risk further name calling from Milo. I mean, I don't want to be called a 13 year-old, brain damaged poopy pants again for being so immature) Pot, meet kettle. lol

Milo, surely you can see the humor in people wrapping themselves up like meat and then laying out in the hot sun... it is natural comedy!

Regardless of whether or not I support their position, stunts like this do not help their cause. They are silly and most folks recognize that fact. Enjoy it, crack a smile and don't be such a humorless boor.

[Nick_M]

I've always thought that human hating is an inevitable consequence of animal loving.

To equate animals and human morally, is to blatantly disregard the value of self awareness and abstract thought.

Animal rights advocates should be cooked and eaten.

[R C Dean]

To say that cattle don't have a choice is to imbue them with the same level of rationality that people have.

It is routine to say that people who are mentally incapacitated below a certain level are incapable of making choices for themselves. Many of these people operate at a mental level far above that of cattle.

PETA makes the error of confusing instinctive reactions with rational decisions.

[Mark]

Jim said:

"You say that the practice of Animal Husbandry, dedicated to the production of meat protien is harmful to the species, ... We might indeed harm the individual animal. But we absolutely do not harm the species in so doing."

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. But no, I don't think a species can have interests like an individual can. That would be collectivist nonsense. I am talking about harming individual members of other species, and using species membership alone as the justifying characteristic.

If it were the species that counted instead of the individual, we would have to apply that to humans, and do things like bringing as many humans as possible into existence even if it means enslaving and killing a significant portion of people. And that's what we're against here.

Ayn-Randian said:

"I'd hardly call the overwhelming benefits of flesh consumption 'trivial'"

What are these overwhelming benefits? Would they justify using other humans in this way? You're not a utilitarian, are you? 🙂

Radical Greenism said:

"While I'm not against the suffering of animals per se (we all suffer and it's natural)."

That is an is-ought fallacy. Check your premises.

Nick_M said:

"To equate animals and human morally, is to blatantly disregard the value of self awareness and abstract thought."

If self-awareness and abstract thought were really what is ethically valuable rather than the ability to be harmed, then we would also be justified in using humans who lack that capacity the way we use nonhuman animals.

highnumber said:

"Mark,

You have left me at a loss for words."

Then you should rethink your position.

It seems like all of these arguments are just excuses to continue an unjust practice. You're acting like the woman in Francisco's money speech - "I don't use logic. My mind doesn't work that way."

But how are the animals actually treated?

Every year, for example, 250 million equally sentient egg-laying hens spend their lives in cages so small that their beaks must be sliced off to prevent them from pecking each other to death under the stress. Investigations find them with broken wings permanently tangled in cage wires, and rotting corpses in cages with live birds.

And so on.

Thankfully, the situation is slowly improving as a result of pressure campaigns by groups like PETA and HSUS.

Again, please check out "Earthlings" on Google Video.

Peace!

[Mark]

Sorry, I forgot:

In terms of "tell the animals not to eat each other," other animals are not moral agents, just as humans children and intellectually disabled humans are not moral agents, but this does not prevent them from being moral patients.

In terms of "animals are harmed in crop production," most crops raised in the United States are raised for animals who are raised for food. So once we admit that the harm we cause nonhuman animals is problematic, raising less animals for food reduces the amount of harm more than anything else. And once we take animal interests more seriously, we will be able to work toward finding less harmful methods of crop production.

[Milo Johnson]

Pundit Joe: if the retardation fits, wear it. Blow me, bitch.

[Pundit Joe]

from Milo Johnson: "if the retardation fits, wear it. Blow me, bitch."

Some self awareness might be in order. Do you realize how you sound? Heh heh.

Thank you Milo for bringing another smile to my face.

[Unethical Vegetarian]

Too bad we're still over in Iraq as people die, or all the poor hungry children in Africa are still dying. But the cows, definitely worth the time. Too bad too many whores are committing abortion, I still guess the cows have more worth.

You're priorities should be focused on our un-ethical society as PEOPLE DIE IN NATURAL DISASTERS AND MURDER.

... PEOPLE.

Learn about them.

They need your help.

[Lou Burnze]

"In terms of "tell the animals not to eat each other," other animals are not moral agents, just as humans children and intellectually disabled humans are not moral agents, but this does not prevent them from being moral patients."

So, why don't we teach animals to be moral agents? Let them go buy houses in the Hamptons.

[Mark]

***Unethical Vegetarian said:

"PEOPLE. Learn about them. They need your help."

The whole point of animal rights, as I said in my first post, is to rethink the ideology we have developed against taking seriously the harm we cause other species. The unthinking assumption that human harm is worth infinitely more can be seen as a form of prejudice, "speciesism."

You cannot oppose that by repeating the prevailing ideology without justification. It's like saying, "racism is wrong, but racism against whites is worse than racism against blacks."

***Lou Burnze said:

"So, why don't we teach animals to be moral agents? Let them go buy houses in the Hamptons."

Why don't we teach human infants in intellectually disabled humans to be moral agents? Same reason.

M E A T . O R G

[economist]

I hate PETA. If the interns volunteered for the assignment, and then died of heatstroke, then I say good-fucking-riddance. They should do it more often.

[economist]

Mark,
If you are serious, then you are a douche. Seriously, just go euthanize yourself, before I do it for you.

[Giya]

[Fill in the blank] who harms themselves or places their bodies in harm's way for their beliefs.

PETA = intelligent, admirable social disobedience

Pentecostal snake handling = stupid religious nutjobs

Christians fasting = stupid religious beliefs

Signing up for the Marines = stupid blood-crazed mercenary

Shiites self flagellation/mutilation on The Day of Ashura = turn a blind eye, don't upset the Muslims

Theo van Gogh = stupid Dutchy, he upset the Muslims

It's all so clear to me now!

[Mark]

***economist said:

"Mark,
If you are serious, then you are a douche. Seriously, just go euthanize yourself, before I do it for you."

So much for "reason." Hahaha.

M E A T . O R G

[economist]

Seriously, Mark, what is your reasoning in saying that humans must act as "moral agents" with regards to other species? If we have no special rights among species, why do we have special obligations? If we are just one species among many in our Darwinian struggle for existence, then I say to practice the Darwinian Law in relation to other species. Honestly, if you people are so dense as to not understand this basic contradiction in your thinking, then you should just shut your fucking faces.

[pt]

Great idea, Mark. I'd say we go wade in the ocean and talk about "speciesism" with the sharks. I'd love to know what they think. In fact, I heard that they would love for us to come over to discuss their relationships with humans during their afternoon snack.

[Mark]

***economist,

I'm arguing on hypothetical (rather than categorical) reasoning, that the concepts of ethics most of us already hold, against causing harm, apply to other species because they are capable of being harmed. That's it. We have simply overlooked other species.

One of the best pieces of evidence that our concepts of ethics intrinsically apply to other species is that when people try to defend the status quo, they always resort to secondary principles like a "natural order" and "moral agency" etc. If our initial concepts of ethics did not apply to other species, that wouldn't be necessary to oppose the inclusion of other species in the moral community.

As for the "Darwinian Law" claim, that is taking an ought from an is. The random mutations of evolution cannot add up to an ethical value. If you really were to "practice the Darwinian Law in relation to other species" as you say, why limit it to other species? Why not other races or nations? Because that's not what libertarianism, or indeed any ethics, is about. It's just the opposite.

***pt,

I think that's a straw man. I never argued that humans and nonhuman animals are the same. And I specifically pointed out that other animals are not moral agents, but that moral agency, even in human ethics, has never been a prerequisite to being a moral patient.

So I do not expect a shark, lacking the ability to act on principles, to decide not to harm me. But I can act on moral principles, and thus recognize that it is wrong to harm the shark.

[mike t82]

I saw this in the "How to Serve Man" book a few years back;-)

If PETA was really humane they would have provided shade for their interns. I would have been concerned about the effects of the heat on their brains but the damage was done long ago - why else would you sign up to be interns for PETA?

[Deborah]

If Peta wants to really do something-why don't they work for the US Department of Agriculture. That would be more productive in correcting animal abuse than demonstrations. I am for the cows as well. People are evil and I would love to wrap up a lot of people like that and leave them forever!

[Anon]

Giya, it should be "PETA = Stupid social disobedience" to go with the rest of your moronic pattern of definitions. I'm sorry, but a cow's genuine, albeit mindless, sweet personality has more sway on my not eating them, than PETA's antics (which pretty much desrcibes perfectly their "social disobedience").

It appears that when making up your own "definitions" you have clearly demonstrated your lack of understanding. Not all Pentecostals are "snake handlers" (having a Pentecostal friend I can vouch for this), and not all people who join the Marines/armed forced are bloodthirsty mercenaries (having a very cool and peaceful stepbrother who joined the Marines to help support himself when his mom couldn't at the time demonstrates that this also isn't always true).

Go get an education please, or at least a reality check.

[Roderick Reilly]

Almost everyone misses the actual intent and goals of the hard-core animal rights activists, including virtually all of its harshest critics. It is a common theme to ridicule animal rights advocates as wanting to raise other animals to the same level as humans (hence the term "rights"). That is not PETA's intent. PETA and other hard-core acivists want to LOWER the status of humans to that of other animals.

The spiritual father of the animal rights movement is Peter Singer, the extreme "Utilitarian" and grotesquely mis-named "bioethicist" who wrote the book "Animal Liberation" in the 70's. Since, by his philososphy, humans are just another animal, then infanticide (we're not talking abortion here, but well-beyond-the-womb infants and toddlers) is OK and "natural," as is the killing of "inconvenient" old people.

[Mark]

Roderick Reilly,

I can tell by your post that you haven't read Singer's work.

He does not argue that something being "natural" gives it an ethical value, nor does he support euthanasia for "convenience."

Rather, he makes intelligent arguments for giving parents the right to actively euthanize infants who are suffering from diseases that keep them in constant pain, usually in situations in which they would otherwise be "passively euthanized" by having food and water withheld.

But he does not use his conclusions as premises, so before taking a position on his views, I recommend reading one of his books, like "Writings on an Ethical Life" (the whole thing - not selected parts) if that isn't too much to ask.

As for everyone else, thanks for your time and consideration.

[Scott]

Everyone should join PETA I just did
People who
Enjoy
Tasty
Animals

Now where is that steak

[89AKurt]

Give 'em a break! They're really promoting solar cooking (carbon free ya know).

Hope they used Aloe Vera for the sunburn.

[economist]

Mark,
you missed the entire point of my post, like the fucking douchebag you are. My point was that you ascribe a necessary "moral agency" to humans without explaining why it must necessarily fall on humans. In other words, since animals regularly kill other species in competition for scarce resources, why do humans have to get stuck being the wussy "nice" species? And there is no other objective standard (in this case) to use except evolutionary dynamics. Some living things must kill other living things to survive, either directly (as when one kills and eats a plant or animal) or indirectly(through competition for scarce resources). However, I will end with this commonsense statement human>goat, or pig, or bug, or plant, or dolphin. If you cannot understand this basic truism, nothing will make you understand it, and it's pointless to try.

[Japanese Bumper Sticker]

I Lover Dolphins-They're Delicious

[~]

So what would have been wrong with putting a realistic looking person in shrink wrap? Aren't there mannequins and "real dolls" out there?

Couldn't the lady in charge swapped with her intern when she complained she was feeling unwell?

What a silly waste of time. That advert only made me hungry for steak and I've been vegetarian for about a year.

[Nick_M]

Mark | June 13, 2008, 10:00am | #

If self-awareness and abstract thought were really what is ethically valuable rather than the ability to be harmed, then we would also be justified in using humans who lack that capacity the way we use nonhuman animals.

The "ability to be harmed" is a consequence of the "self-awareness and abstract thought."

A rock can be damaged, but it does not suffer. We can all agree that somewhere between rock and Albert Einstein, there is a cognitive level that renders a entity capable of suffering.

"I" is an abstract concept. Without abstract concepts, there is so "I" there. The is no one whose pain it is.

[Mark]

***economist said:

"you ascribe a necessary "moral agency" to humans without explaining why it must necessarily fall on humans."

Again, I am not using "categorical reasoning," stating that there is an objective "ought" in the fabric of the universe. There isn't. As far as we know. I am instead using "hypothetical reasoning" by arguing from ethical premises that most of us accept, in this case the harm principle, and then pointing out that it extends to other species.

***economist said:

"And there is no other objective standard (in this case) to use except evolutionary dynamics."

But "evolutionary dynamics" is not an objective standard. Again, it is a well-known logical fallacy to derive an "is" from an "ought."

***economist said:

"In other words, since animals regularly kill other species in competition for scarce resources, why do humans have to get stuck being the wussy "nice" species?"

Well, since animals also regularly harm and kill members of their own species, why do humans have to be the wussy "nice" species by refraining from slavery and genocide and rape of other humans?

***Nick_M said:

"The "ability to be harmed" is a consequence of the "self-awareness and abstract thought.""

That is incorrect. Babies and senile people and intellectually disabled people are incapable of self-awareness and abstract thought, but they are equally capable of being harmed. The ability to be harmed is a consequence of "sentience," which nonhuman mammals and birds share with us.

***Nick_M said:

"A rock can be damaged, but it does not suffer. We can all agree that somewhere between rock and Albert Einstein, there is a cognitive level that renders a entity capable of suffering."

Correct. Rocks and plants are not sentient, so they cannot suffer. Albert Einstein and you and I and dogs and pigs and fish are sentient, so we can suffer.

*** I say:

Thank you again for your time and thought. Only a few years ago, I believed that is was "natural" (in the fallacious way) to harm other animals, and that people who opposed that were stupid.

It took me a long, painful time to rethink what I had been taught to believe since I was a child. So I do not believe that you should unthinkingly agree with me now. I just hope that you take the time to think through all this and arrive at your own conclusions.

-Mark

M E A T . O R G

[Cliff Britt]

What kind of logic comes into play when the moaner is ragging on cow flatulence? Except for fish, and I'm not too sure about them, we are guily of creating gases. Does it mean that we must all go the way of the cattle herds?

[Paula]

What idiots.

PETA's slogan:
Save an animal; kill a human.

They need brains at this "organization"

[FLNonny]

Meat was good enough for JESUS so it's good enough for me! Gotta go grill a steak so I can eat it with my CANINE teeth (perhaps PETA will picket the medical association for that:).

If PETA had its way, we'd all die from cancer and other such deadly diseases in order to save animals. CLEARLY this group has lost its way. Decades ago it was a respectable organization. Now I see signs around town that read, "Meat is Murder and Milk is Rape." How insulting. Geesh....

[Stephen]

Hmmm, think I'll go out to Bob's chophouse and have a big fat medium-rare filet mignon.

[Paul]

This makes me want to eat a baby. An Irish baby.

[Erich]

Economist:

You state as a "basic truism" that humans are "better" than other animals. Doesn't that answer your question? One reason we are better is because we have a sense of morality (most of us do, at least). We know how to survive while minimizing the suffering we cause to others, including animals. Being "better" than amimals, we should act on that knowledge.

[economist]

Mark is a douche.
Erich, I'm not sure.
This thread lasted way too long.

[Billybob Stewart]

This could start a new trend in intern treatment. At least these interns are doing something productive enough to get some attention. Our interns provide nothing of value. Does anyone know where we can buy the large styrofoam bottoms (intern size)?

PETA has it correct - a cow is worth more than an intern.

[Harold G]

I agree w Billybob. Those interns are nuthin' but trouble. They should ship them all back to whatever country they came from.

I can sell me a cow for some money. An intern ain't worth squat.

[Amy Alkon]

Except for fish, and I'm not too sure about them, we are guily of creating gases.

Especially people who eat lots of fiber and carbohydrates.

Eat a steak, only a steak. You're not going to get gas.

Per the book and other heavily researched writing of Gary Taubes, it seems likely humans get cancer and other diseases from eating flour and sugar. See the Inuit, for example, who pretty much only ate meat until whitey dropped by with some Twinkies and donut holes, and only started getting cancer and other diseases after their diet changed.

[Sarah]

They still look more productive than the interns at my office. 🙂

[proud vegan]

PETA doesn't force people to do that, the interns most-likely voulenteered for it. PETA doesn't just kidnap people and force them to protest. They probably knew what they were going to go through, where animals don't, because they have a different way of speaking. If you treated a cow like that, they would freak out because they wouldn't understand...duh...and what makes humans superior to animals? I'm not saying that all humans should go die or anything, just why are humans better? Why are the ones who kill and murder "better"?

[Jan]

I belong to PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals.

[wizard of oz books]

With many new announcement about the wizard of oz movies in the news, you might want to consider starting to obtain Wizard of Oz book series either as collectible or investment at RareOzBooks.com.

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