Barack's New Deal

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Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post on how Barack Obama backtracked in his Indiana speech yesterday to counter "his elitist disparagement of 'small town' voters" in an earlier speech in San Francisco.

In San Francisco, Obama had said: "So it's not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

In Indiana, he polished this, so that it came out:

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. They take refuge in their faith and their community, and their family, and the things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington.

While Obama is indeed engaging in spin, there is a far more disturbing aspect to his interpretation. He misses the essential nature of modern culture. People don't end up focusing on issues like the right to bear arms, gay marriage, faith-based and family-based issues, and the like, because of bitterness against Washington or a sense that they can't effect change there. People focus on these issues because modern American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one's identity and personal agendas independently of the state.  

What Obama implicitly regards (in both his statements) as signs of disintegration, as reflections of popular frustration, are in fact examples of a thriving culture. Exceptions to this, of course, are anti-immigration sentiment and bigoted protectionism, both of which Obama conveniently dropped in his Indiana comments. Yet Obama's approach betrays a very suffocating vision of the state as the be-all and end-all of political-cultural behavior. Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense, but it also partly explains why Obama is so admired among educated liberals, who still view the state as the main medium of American providence.      

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  1. Wasn’t his lack of suprise at people expressing this ‘clinging’ behavior because they had lost their jobs 25 years ago or some nonsense like that? When I saw the longer quote on TV it read like he was trying to tell one group that another group does not act like them because they have been out of work for a long time, or something.

    I want to see the stats on just how many people in the USA have been involuntarily out of work for 25 years and how you still buy a decent gun or clothes for Church in that situation.

  2. So none of us cling to our guns because people in Washington wish to sieze them, violating a right enshrined in the constitution?

    I didn’t realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off

  3. Why is everyone skipping over the hypocrisy on the trade issue? In Ohio, he wants to renegotiate NAFTA — and simultaneously assuring Canada that he’s kidding. So now, he tells his San Francisco audience that the troglodytes don’t like free trade, but he does. Let’s get to the core of Obama. He is a pander bear, worse than your standard issue politician. It is hard to figure out what he really believes and what he’d really do.

  4. I was going to vote for him for sure if he won the nomination.

    Now I may be right back to “throwing my vote away” on third parties.

  5. Anybody wanna start taking bets on when Sen. Obama will imply that Sen. McCain was a “junkie” because he was in Vietnam? He seems to be tossing out every other fictional Leftist invictive, that one must not be far behind.

  6. [bulb lights up]

    It almost sounds like Sen. Obama has been getting his views of America from some old radicals from the 1960s and 1970s. Like he has been hanging out with folks from the Weather Underground/Students for a Democratic Society or something. Naaaa, can’t be, that sould have been in the news or somethng . . .

  7. I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq.

  8. Anon,

    Mrs. Clinton said she wants to be in Iraq for 100 years? Wow, she must have said that late at night when she was tired. Hope it was not during one of those 0300 phone calls. Have the direct quote someplace?

  9. Why is being anti-immigration a “sentiment” but being protectionist “bigoted”? Seems back-assward.

  10. Fred C.,

    Welcome to the house of mirrors in the world of the extreme. Words are really meaningless, but if they are going in the correct emotional direction, they are just fine. Maybe Sen. Obama is trying to be the Pat Buchanan of the Left?

  11. John Mellencamp – Small Town
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDkAG3R0h8
    Vote Barack Obama 08!

  12. Next thing you know we will have someone like the head of The Village Voice saying that one of his Black coworkers was his human property for many years, but it’s all okay because it was said at a First Amendment ceremony, or something.

  13. I have lived in a small town on the NJ/PA border for twenty-five years. Believe me, there’s bitterness to go around. But it’s there in upstate NY, NH and plenty of other small town regions. They have a right to be bitter, but they do cling to their guns.

  14. Liz,

    Are you one of the folks who has been out of work for 25 years? Not seeing what all the bitterness is for/from, other than those nannystate politicians, high taxes and, maybe, not being able to save enough money to move South.

  15. I saw a documentry on small town life a few years ago. Roadhouse showed how small towns can be ruled by evil white guys who will smash your property with a monster truck if you don’t do what they tell you to do.

    In comparison to Mikael Moore’s documentry on Canada, Canadian Bacon, small town America looks pretty evil.

  16. People don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage.

    What Obama said here– saying that people vote on social issues and not the economy (no mention of foreign policy)– is patently false.

    is patently false. Votes are influenced the most by unfavorable wars and the economy. Read this (pdf) or at least scroll down to the graph on the fourth page to understand.

    It is true, however, that the president doesn’t have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most. And that’s the problem: we elect people assuming that they’re going to do a lot for the economy, and the most influence they can have over an economy is bad, not good.

  17. the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

    dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

  18. Of course, the people of San Francisco focus *exclusively* on economic issues. That’s why their mayor refuses to waste everyone’s time with divisive cultural issues like gay marriage.

  19. Also, San Franciscans are too sophisticated to allow themselves to be distracted from the all-important economic issues by the emotional issue of guns.

  20. People don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody is going to help them.

    Well, lots of people do vote for politicians who promise to line their pockets, but the disturbing thing isn’t that he’s wrong on the facts, its that he seems to believe government is supposed to transferring wealth.

    So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms.

    Yeah, the nerve of people. Voting on the basis of whether a politician will protect their Constitutional rights.

    In Obama’s mind, you should vote for someone because he will take from someone else and give to you, not because he will abide by the Constitution as written.

  21. I have had reports from my volunteers to the attitude in the inner cities in Philadelphia. They can’t stop shooting their neighbors. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. It also explains why they have kids they can’t afford with no regard to the financial hardships that creates, food stamps, WIC, and welfare decrease their incentive to work. Thus the need for Latino workers.

  22. The Whole Quote:

    “When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what’s worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened – I want to make a point here today.

    “I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how’re you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What’s going on there? We hear that’s its hard for some working class people to get behind you’re campaign. I said, “Well look, they’re frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they’ve seen jobs shipped overseas. They’ve seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare.

    “And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they’re bitter. Of course they’re frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement– so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’

    “Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain-it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I’m out of touch? No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.”

  23. California appellate court strikes down gun control measure approved by SF’s sophisticated, rational, non-emotionally-driven voters:

    http://www.ktvu.com/news/15013899/detail.html

  24. Ah, I misremembered the 25 years jobs thing. He has a list ov everybody’s jobs that were “shipped overseas” and he is going to bring those jobs back! Why is he the only one with the bill of lading anyway? Shouldn’t that list exist someplace where scholars and economists can study it?

    So, what about the jobs that were shipped overseas and the person who the job was stolen from died because they could not eat any more? Is there some procedure for a next-of-kin to get that job that belonged to their ancestor?

    How about those jobs that these kids just won’t do? If that stolen job was family property, is it okay if these new kids working in banks and IT, etc., turn down, say, a “recovered” mill job? Maybe some illegal immigrants can do those jobs when Sen. Obama brings them back in a truck and sorts them out on the job warehouse floor?

    Dude, this guy is deep. The more he talks the more questions I have.

  25. FWIW, I think there is something to the idea that many people are cynical about government (for non-ideological reasons; Libertarians are *professionally* cynical about government, and so they don’t count) because of political anomia, economic frustrations, etc., and many people do start voting according to cultural or racial clades, focusing upon desired social values when prosperity slips out of reach.

    You guys don’t think people are bitter and that bitterness doesn’t play a role in how people vote?

  26. E,

    Um, more like people make all sorts of irrational emotional choices when they are deciding who they are voting for and it is not limited to folks in small towns, nor is it limited to “bitterness”.

  27. While it’s true that there’s a lot of racism/homophobia/nativism, etc. in those areas of the country, to claim that this is the result of people distrusting government is absolutely silly. If people distrusted government, the last two people they would support would be Hillary Clinton and John McCain. Especially Hillary Clinton, who not only is an even bigger believer in government than Obama, but also happens to be married to the man whose government allegedly failed these voters.

  28. I do wish people addressing immigration would acknowledge that there is a difference between being anti-immigration and anti-illegal immigration. It’s getting old.

  29. I think I solved the bitterness puzzle.

    Those folks in the rust belt are pissed off that some guy from Chicago has been holding their stolen jobs hostage until they vote for him. As a United States Senator he could have restored these jobs that were shipped overseas, ore even pressed for reperations to the people whose jobs were taken, packed and shipped to India. BUT, he did not do anything about it and won’t until his coronation, as long as everybody stays in line.

    Yea, if my $50/hour (after union dues) machine shop job were packed up and shipped away I would be pissed too.

  30. The Powerline precisely frames the dynamic of the fatal flaw in Obama’s inital comment and follow-up. The suredness of his analysis trumps all others view of the world. It IS condescending and he does not still realize why. How tone deaf, and he want’s to be a uniter of these poor bitter folks?

  31. john doe,

    If you are looking for that distinction you might want to check The National Review online. Here at Reason/The Nation/Slate/The New Republic/the World Socialist Web Site , immigration is immigration and if you are against any restrictions on it, then you, Sir, ar a racist.

    No, that is not my view, I actually agree with you, but don’t expect the editors here to change their view.

  32. “Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense…”

    It’s also a fucking straw man. Like the fundamentalist you are, you twist everything to fit your cherished dogma. Recognizing that the state has a role to play in providing the economic stability that is a neccesary condition for the pursuit of private aims is not at all the same as saying there is no salvation outside the state.
    The problem with building a movement on anything as inexact and arguable as economics is that you end up a mindless dogmatic–like a marxist or a libertarian.

  33. dilemma,

    If we were not evil racist corporatist tools we would realize what a uniter Sen. Obama is.

  34. Guy Montag, how many cups of coffee did you have this morning?

  35. Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

  36. anono,

    2 pints, whatever that works out to. On my way out for some breakfast and a Starbucks mocha.

    I think the biggest effect is that phentinal finally wearing all the way off (I think), and that other stuff that starts with a V, from Thursday morning.

  37. SIV,

    Shush! That is part of the secret plans that will have to be worked out later, like pulling out of Iraq in a month.

  38. No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.

    Does anyone besides me find this hilarious? That he would even say that he “knows”? I can’t tell yet if he’s Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon. We don’t know who the twelfth model is yet, people–it could be him.

  39. Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

    My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

    Oh, you weren’t kidding, were you, SIV. How awkward.

  40. I can’t tell yet if he’s Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon.

    There is only one candidate in this race who is clearly a Cylon, and that’s McCain. I mean, how else did he get his eye back?

  41. “I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq.”

    You’ll get Obama and a hundred years in Iraq. And you’ll like it.

  42. Does anyone besides me find this hilarious?

    Yes.

  43. Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 8:13am | #

    the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

    dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

    Guy, that was blatantly dishonest. Let’s roll the tape –

    It is true, however, that the president doesn’t have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

    The above statement is not a leftist anticorporate whine, it is arguably contains a good bit of economic truth.

    Don’t ever let me see you complain about an out of context quote. I’ll throw this in your face.

  44. Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

  45. JsD,

    It contained a decent bit of truth until he got to the Leftist whine at the end. And, no I do not normally drink alcohol before noon but today I might make an exception.

    Thinking red wine might go well with a Mexican omlet.

  46. Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

    I hereby, on my own authority, declare this to be the weekend political thread.

    As the late, great, Admiral Grace Hopper once noted “It is easier to get forgiveness that to get permission.”

  47. JsD,

    Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

  48. Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don’t have a large effect on the economy?

    Bear Stearns? ?
    WalMart? ?
    Enron? ?
    Google? ?

  49. LMNOP,


    My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

    Yes there are. The well-heeled donors at the san francisco fundraiser where Obama made the original remarks.

    I don’t believe it–the government can’t create that many jobs! The patronage woudn’t go to rural PA caucasian working class people if he could

  50. Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless sctrolling?

    Sorry, guy; that just leapt out at me, and I had to see it on the screen.
    You’re doing fine, although I did think the “coffee” question was right on the money.

  51. Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

    You are f*ing kidding me?
    That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

    Mega-Sheesh.

  52. Oops- sorry about the small “G.”

    And as for the topic at hand, I’m thinking of the old adage, “When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

    Obama is a Senator; of course he sees himself as the saviour of the (ignorant, pathetic, feckless) little guy, and that salvation can only come through government intervention in the economy.

    Thinking back to the thread about Michelle O and her comments bout their totally random, accidental successes in life, I cannot help wondering if he would ever admit to writing his book out of purely pecuniary motives. I mean, just because *he* can raise his sights above the daily grind and find a way to improve his situation, that doesn’t mean a bunch of embittered honkeys can (barring the benficent ministrations of their betters in the government).

  53. It’s a good thing I never give anybody grief about not proofreading what they post.

    stupid keyboard

  54. P Brooks

    An economy free of government intervention is a complete unknown. You’ve never lived in one, and neither have I.

  55. I stopped reading at “Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post…”

  56. I would like to know what is wrong with outspending someone during an election. Obviously Obama knows how to run a campaign. It takes a lot of money to counter the Clinton machine. Most people would have been swallowed by now … just ask Monica .That is all I ever hear. He out spent us … he out spent us. What is he supposed to do with his money , put it in an IRA? After the new polls come out, Obama is going to be ahead by a few points. Hillary made a huge mistake by pouncing on Obama for his “bitter “remark because the voters are pretty smart. All she had to do was sympathize with the voters, even if she had to pretend. She would have locked up the Pennsylvania vote. If Obama would have apologized, he would have lost my vote. He spoke the truth.If only people could read, they would know exactly what he meant….. Both Clinton and Mcain have skirted around this issue, but didn’t have the B-A-L-L-S to say it. I can see Clinton jumping on this because she is desperate, but McCain, he must have alzheimers, because he forgets what he stood for last week.

  57. Doesn’t the anti-gay marriage and the anti-immigrant sentiments and movements that Obama says people turn to when the state fails to help them (whether it can or not) economically also related to state action? I mean, the movement is for the feds to bar any state from recognizing gay marriage and for the feds to take an active role in stopping and rounding up immigrants. So I’m not sure what Young is getting at when he says that these two movements are healthy manifestations of non-governmental subcultural issues. WTF? Can’t he stick to crazy analysis of foriegn policy? If those two movements were indeed non-state related subucultural issues they would involve people simply voluntarily choosing to not live around gays or immigrants. But they ain’t they are not…

  58. “But they ain’t and they are not”

  59. BTW-I hear a fair amount here on H&R about why the average American opposes immigration and trade so much, and a lot of it paints the public as a fair bit more misdirected and mistaken as Obama’s quote does…

  60. Let’s stop the bickering and pause for a prayer.

    Hail Market,
    Full of grace,
    Prosperity is with thee.
    Blessed art thou among systems,
    and blessed is the fruit
    of thy womb, Capital.
    Holy Market,
    Mother of Goods,
    pray for us consumers now,
    and at the hour of our bankruptcy.
    Amen.

  61. stupid keyboard

    Tt is a poor workman who blames his tools. πŸ˜‰

  62. It, not Tt!

    stupid fingers.

  63. Re: MK2 | April 12, 2008, 11:40am

    ?Hes a one trick pony
    He either fails or he succeeds
    He gives his testimony
    Then he relaxes in the weeds
    Hes got one trick to last a lifetime
    But thats all a pony needs
    ?

    Trolls require more.

  64. JsD,
    MK2 must have given in to the bitterness if it’s come to prayer.

  65. It is a poor workman who blames his tools.

    Unless his tools are really shitty. πŸ™‚

  66. Market fundamentalists of the world unite! You have nothing to lose because you’ll never win.

  67. Once again this shows how out of touch liberal Barack Obama is with the real heartland of America is.

    Like his extremist liberal wife, he may play well with the New England-San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard-Yale elitist crowd, but out in the real world of Pennsylvania hes going to get trounced by the white working class voters he just threw under the bus as fast as he did his grandma.

    I hope the Democrat Party nominates him, because between this and his extremist race-bating reverend Allahamba O’Govern will be lucky to win 50 electoral votes.

  68. Unless his tools are really shitty.

    Hey! I used my smoothest rock, and my sharpest stick, to make that.

  69. I also love how the leftist liberal Democrat Party can’t decide on which affirmative action victim-pimping group to reward.

  70. “It’s being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter; well, that’s not my experience,” Mrs. Clinton told an audience at Drexel University. “Pennsylvanians don’t need a president who looks down on them; they need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, your families.”

    Hillary

    She’s different. She wants to fight for their futures. Because they would be helpless without her.

  71. It strikes me now that a President Obama will probably be the Democrats’ Reagan: someone who goes out and speaks inspiring rhetoric (taylor-made for the recipient audience, of course), but leaves the policywork to his underlings.

  72. Michael Young:

    Thanks for the laugh! Included in your examples of a “thriving” culture is IdentityPolitics, CorporatePluralism, and the like.

    As for the part of BHO’s original statement involving trade and imm., you are, needless to say, wrong: Obama was being misleading.

    Reason Magazine, Where Every Day is OppositeDay!

  73. I don’t get why people are getting a hair up their asses about the religion part. It’s pretty common knowledge that people become more religious during trying times. Alcoholics Anonymous is built on this theory.

  74. Fritz Reagan was a real American who understood the heartland and didn’t look down on it from some Harvard ivory tower like Obama. Obama is just a liberal San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard big city elite, Reagan was a real American.

  75. People didn’t vote for Bush because they thought he was competent – they voted for him because he represented their world view – albeit a third grade world view. The same holds true for the current slate.

  76. Because they would be helpless without her.

    Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government. For that matter, I doubt somehow that Hillary believes it either.

    More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people’s lives, and unlike most of those other forces, people actually have a say in their own government.

    Now, one may say (with a great deal of warrant) that this view is naive in that it fails to take into account just how badly government may go sometimes, is overly optimistic in predicting the effectiveness or efficiency of regulation, and is sometimes counterproductive in that it causes a whole host of unintended consequences.

    It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

  77. Elemenope you’re wrong liberal Democrats think people who didn’t go to the big ivy leagues or live in the big city are stupid hicks who need to be “educated” into the liberal Democrat world view.

    They think you’re stupid. They think SUVs are stupid. They think supporting the troops is stupid. They think owning a gun is stupid. They think going to church twice a week is stupid. They think flying the flag on the 4th of July is stupid. They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you’re stupid.

    They don’t like America.

  78. “They” talk a lot, don’t they, Neil.

    I think it was Nietzsche who first pointed out that for every detractor of a party or movement, the most effective was the true believer who was a fucking idiot. That person’s sole purpose in life was to serve you as a reminder of just why you don’t belong to that group.

  79. -Hillary

    She’s different. She wants to fight for their futures.

    She can crawl up my ass and fight for air. Hugo Chavez in a pant-suit.

  80. Way to be an elitist Elemenope. No wonder you defend Allahamba.

    Why don’t you accuse me of “clinging” to guns and religion next?

  81. Word from inside the campaign has it that Obama is actually an excellent bowler but he made the political calculation that the small town proles would be more forgiving of a bad performance than his San Fransisco supporters would be forgiving of a good one.

  82. alan, ROFL!

  83. How can you seriously defend a guy who wouldn’t even put his hand on his heart during the national anthem? Isn’t that just a little weird and un-American?

  84. Why do we always want to line up to take our pills from Nurse Ratched. How sad has America become.

  85. More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people’s lives

    And in what way does this refute my (admittedly simplified) assertion that these self-described liberals believe the little guy desperately needs their help?

    In the long version of Obama’s statement (quoted earlier by you), is this:

    And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens.

    That sounds to me like he’s saying, “I won’t let you down, like those other guys; *this time* you shall be saved. By me.”

  86. It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

    I’m going to argue that leftist political thinking is often predicated on condescension towards the average American. Particularly towards the average red voting American. I’m not saying they are wrong in that belief. I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

    The snide comments from the left about Reagan and GW Bush’s lack of intelligence are too numerous to bring up. The Alzheimers jokes about McCain have already started and will be coming to a screen near you before November. The right’s disingenuous disparaging the patriotism of those on the left side of the spectrum is equally prevalent and odious.

    It is not just boilerplate, these folks really believe the crap they are spouting. Sad, but true.

  87. While I was composing my previouss post, Neil was buttressing one of my points about the right.
    Thanks Neil!

  88. You don’t think its just a little bit STRANGE that Obama had his hand down by his side instead of over his heart during the national anthem J sub D?

    Allahamba probably thinks you’re just an idiot who “clings” to guns and religion. The bottom line is the liberal Democrat Party doesn’t understand our culture, only San Francisco-Manhattan-Malibu culture.

  89. Of course there is truth in what Obama said. I recall a recent conversation I had with a transplant friend from upper state New York (and thank God for them, Northern women find me more attractive than Southern ones for some reason) talking about how girls from stable working class families with whom he went to high school taking up working for escort services in Canadian cities after the rust belt bust.

    However, there is the assumption in Obama’s rhetoric that smacks of old Marxist rhetoric concerning false consciousness that if the proles could see their economic interest for what it is they would not be distracted by Kulturkamf. If they recognized their economic interest they would throw out their entrenched political elites whose pro union, anti corporate policies make their localities unattractive for economic growth.

  90. I’m retired military, Neil. I don’t get my tits in a flutter over meaningless symbolism. I guess that means I’m unpatriotic as well.

  91. Neil – we don’t care about archaic shows of pseudo-patriotism. Both Team Blue and Team Red (that’s your side, asshole) have shown themselves patently incapable and unwilling to respect and follow The Supreme Law of the Land. That’s unpatriotic.

    J sub – so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

    We really need a more positive outlook. I don’t think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

  92. I’m deeply thankful for a President who holds his hand over his heart as the National Anthem is played; even as he is busily wiping his ass with the Constitution, with the other one.

    It’s the single most important thing.

  93. Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members.

  94. Sen. Obama’s position seems like an example of the “waste of time” theory of “cultural issues” – the idea that the important political questions are economic (in the narrow sense), and therefore anyone who focuses on other issues – issues which are not directly economic – is wasting time and diverting his focus and attention from the true, economic issues. In this particular case, Sen. Obama is spinning this that the people haven’t been offered real economic solutions, so they’ve been forced to wank off with the cultural issues – use them as a security blanket because there haven’t been enough statesmen like Obama to show revive their faith in economic interventionism.

    I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently. If he truly believes that God, guns and gays [to take a sample of purportedly non-economic issues] are distractions from real issues, then that would seem to apply regardless of a person’s position on the three Gs. In other words, if God-guns-gays are timewasting issues, then they’re a waste of time for *everyone* who focuses on them, whether they’re in the NRA or the Brady Campaign, the Christian Coalition or the Gay Rights Campaign.

    I would love to see Sen. Obama try and play out this idea – maybe have a Sister Souljah moment or two with traditional Democratic constituencies.

    “Sen. Barack Obama today, in a speech before Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, urged his audience to ‘focus on the real issues.’ The Senator said: ‘why are you spending so much time worrying about religious monuments in courthouse squares when the Republicans are trying to steal your Grandpa’s pension?’

    “In another speech, in front of the Coalition for Victim Disarmament, derided the ‘excessive focus’ on gun control. ‘Gun control isn’t important,’ said Obama. ‘What’s important is that I have a plan to save your grandma from being thrown out into the snow – or what *would* be snow if it wasn’t for that darn global warming.’

    “In a third speech, Obama told the San Francisco Gay Club that ‘it’s time you stopped worrying about gay rights. Who cares? Never mind what I think about gay rights, the important thing is that I have a wonderful plan to save your jobs.”

    I wonder how that would go over? I wonder if those Deep Thinkers who don’t want people to be distracted by cultural issues would support Obama on that one?

  95. Neil,
    Judging by conservative reaction to the Harriet Meiers nomination and her educational background, the conservative elite thinks the same thing. They pretend they don’t believe it in order to get votes. Heck, look how they responded to the Huckabee nomination. And how is hating on the urban and liberal centers any different than doing the same for the heartland. You seem to hate America just as much, just a different part.

    As for the national anthem thing:

    Modern custom does not require a hand over the heart, said Anne Garside, director of communication for the Maryland Historical Society, home of the original manuscript of the Star-Spangled Banner. “I think the bottom line is that you show respect with your demeanor,” she said. “Whether you put your hand over your heart, hold your hat at shoulder level or waist level, is really in this day and age irrelevant.”

    I’m more concerned over someone who bases their voting decision on something like this. It’s not like he was cracking jokes and making fart noises during the anthem.

    Personally, I hate SUVs and think they’re dumb in an urban/suburban environment, but I don’t give a shit what you do if you don’t drive like a moron (which isn’t a given). However, it’s my right as an American to believe what I want and I won’t stop you from doing what you want.

  96. “Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members.”

    Neil, please stop, you’re going to turn me into a Democrat.

  97. First of all, I don’t vote for a candidate based on whom his misguided heart fell in love with at one time. I have been a sucker for love, too.

    I do recognize that our current system gives wives some power, I want all funding cut for first ladies and the wives of Vice Presidents as well. It is crazy we accept this publicly financed arrangement. It isn’t suppose to be a serial monarchy, after all.

    Last of all, I don’t like her. I can see where right wing rhetoric about her may prove to be effective because she is easily reduced to a cartoon figure of the uppity, ingrate diva by her own mouth. I have no problem with Obama on the basis of his public persona, I even find him likable.

  98. You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama. Just watch it, hes going to be the next McGovern/Dukakis who can’t connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

  99. [“waste of time theory”], I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently.

    If he did, it would be a red letter day in American politics.

    Of course, he also has to win an election, so I doubt somehow that he’s going to say that *everyone’s* pet peeve issues are pointless.

    I suppose we could hope, though. I hear he’s big on that.

  100. Neil – who are you supporting for the Presidency? McCain “The Patriot” who stepped all over the First Amendment?

  101. Max,
    Don’t blame him, he’s just regurgitating something he read in the Corner. Be careful, it’s vile stuff. Of course, Schiffren is Dan Quayle’s former speechwriter, which says it all.

  102. They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you’re stupid.

    Neil, FWIW, I have a public university engineering education and live in the 54th largest metro area, and I also think you’re an idiot.

  103. Ayn Randian McCain isn’t perfect (I would’ve preferred Romney and then Huckabee) but hes a hundered times better than Obama.

    He gets the important issues right–trade, the economy, taxes, the Global War on Terror, gun rights, abortion. I agree with him 80% of the time and so do most Americans. This is a center-right nation and people aren’t going to vote for some globalist with a comsymp background and a race-hustling wife who wants to cut and run from the jihadists.

  104. You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

    It doesn’t matter if he loses the blue states so long as he gets the red and purple ones.

    I’m a Tarheel, btw.

  105. from swimming freestyle:

    “This video is exactly how Obama should have raised the issue: In the environment these voters live and with an appropriate anger. Rural working class voters have gotten the shaft. They have every right to be frustrated and even bitter about what’s happened to them.

    Obama now finds himself having to address the issue defensively, Unfortunately, the issue will now likely be obscured by the hysterical anti-Obama rants by the Clintons and McCains. Obama gave them that gift when he spoke in San Francisco last weekend.”

    http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

  106. Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government.

    You do understand that most leftist “community organizing” consists of organizing people to demand things from the government? They’re not usually planting little vegetable gardens or babysitting each other’s kids.

    Face it, this comment is Obama’s mask slipping again. He’s a condescending crypto-Marxist who believes that rural whites exist in false consciousness, “clinging” to religion and guns and racism because they don’t understand that the cause of all their problems are the big bad corporations. But don’t worry, Obama will come and increase taxes and subsidies and regulations until everyone has a good job with nice benefits.

  107. comment by MK2

    What? I can’t hear you. Speak up!

  108. “They don’t like America.”

    Hey Neil,
    Liberal here. Not so much. They just don’t like your retarded version of America.
    Tell me wise one, which meangingless version of kissing the king’s ring will get you to shut it? A plastic magnet on the bumper? A full-throated chorus of God Bless America?

    You are a giant douche, a walking, talking confirmation of just about every stereotype my team has ever been guilty of perpetuating. Keep up the work.

  109. you know, as a side note, when I was in Iraq we were told to drop the “Global” from the “Global War on Terror.”

    To claim that the campaign against those who attacked us on 9/11 should have gone to Iraq is NOT getting the GWOT “right”. Also, Neil, I’ll note your boy is enamored with the “green” movement. How conservative of him.

  110. You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

    Yeah, everybody I know wanted to lynch the guy when he came to Montana.

  111. Neil, does belonging to Team Red make you feel all warm and tingly? That you know who your enemies are (Team Blue)?

    Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

  112. Ayn Randian he got the war right when he went against the Rumsfeld strategy and supported the Surge which is now working beautifully. He’s been right from the beginning, striking the right course between Rumsfeldian failure/incompetence and liberal cut-and-running.

    As for the environmentalist crap, hes just throwing a bone to them so we don’t get something worse.

    Pinko, How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that? How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort? How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is? That would be a start. “Pinko” is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

  113. J sub – so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

    We really need a more positive outlook. I don’t think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

    I only claim to speak for myself. Depending on the mood I’m in, my opinion of humanity changes quite substantially. I will never, be accused of over estimating my fellow humans intelligence. I really don’t consider myself an elitest, as I’ve met many smarter than myself. But I do consider myself a realist, and I have met Scads, tonnes, oodles and gazillions of people less intelligent.

    Not less human. Not less valuable. Not less kind, important, or good. Just less intelligent.
    Shaq can realize that most people are shorter and weaker without being elitist. Why can’t intelligent people do the same?

  114. How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

    Why? Maybe he could respect the Constitution first. Do you automatically respect authority figures? That seems like bad policy to me. Would you respect Hillary if she became Prez?

  115. How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

    I don’t have a commander in chief because I a citizen, a civilian, and most importantly, a free man. I find your sentiment their repugnant and anti-American.

    You started it by trashing Blue states, so what the fuck are you getting defensive about, you sanctimonious jackass?

  116. Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?

    Did you know the late, great Republican Senator Robert Taft questioned the motives of FDR in WW2?

    Robot citizens make for good Soviets but make piss poor Americans.

  117. “Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?”

    In fact I did when he went into Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Also when he bombed Al Qaeda after they bombed our embassies. In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water’s edge).

    Yes, if Hillary became President I’d show her respect in foreign policy and actually believe shes not too bad in that area and would keep America safe. Its her socialist tendencies at home I don’t like. But I believe she wants to keep this country safe.

    I’m NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

  118. So was candidate George W. Bush wrong in criticizing Clinton’s activism by promising a more humble foreign policy (I recall it getting the Weekly Standard dopes panties all in a twitter at the time)?

  119. “I’m NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.”

    I have in my hand – oops, not that hand, the other one – I have in my hand a list of known Communist operatives who are currently directing policy in the Barack Hussein al Mahdi Obama Presidential campaign.

    Wake Up, People – America Is In Danger!

  120. who can’t connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

    Neil, let’s roll the tape:
    Bush II – Yale/Harvard, Oil industry exec, Professional sports team owner
    Clinton – Yale, Rhodes Scholar
    Bush I – CIA Head, heir of New England blue bloods.
    Reagan – Hollywood Actor
    Carter – 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer
    Ford – quarter century in US congress
    Nixon – big city lawyer
    Johnson – another life long senator
    Kennedy – another Harvard, New England blue blood
    Ike – won ww2

    Yep, no elitist, globalist background in any dudes lately. (The streak does end with Truman)

    And your boys: McCain, son and grandson of naval officers? Romney, son of a governor and himself CEO of hedge fund? These guys define global elitists (NTTAWTT).

    I give you credit for your boy Huckabee however; he does in fact not have a single iota of the globalist elitist background. But that’s because he is, in the words of another, a ignorant hillbilly wackjob preacher. Over this give me global elitism any day of the week (and twice on Sunday.)

  121. Its her socialist tendencies at home I don’t like.

    right…as opposed to the Republican tendency to buy votes on credit, to the tune of a 9 trillion dollar deficit and a trillion-dollar war. Is it any wonder the dollar sunk, given our current tendency for our government to treat the American people as a credit cow to curry favor?

    As for this “respect the CIC thing”:

    – My oath talks about the Constitution first.
    – You’re not a Servicemember, you don’t HAVE a Commander in Chief.
    – You’re nationalistic militarism is really embarrassing. I fight for the Republic, not for one man.

  122. In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water’s edge).

    Why am I suddenly thinking about Napolean Bonaparte?
    Neil, you witless baboon, in our nation’s history our government has engaged in immoral as well as stupid foreign policies and wars. Why would a “patriotic” American “respect” the perpetrator of these fuckups?

  123. I’m NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

    Can someone explain the logic of this to me. If someone wanted to bring down the US from the inside, running for president is the worst fucking idea in the world. The key to being a double agent is people not paying attention to you. The only thing that gets more attention than a presidential candidate is Paris Hilton’s cooter. If he wanted to bring down the US from the inside, he could do it from other positions a lot easier and with greater certainty, since winning the presidency is hardly a given.

  124. Carter – 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

    Where were the rest born?

  125. I’m NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

    Obama is the Manchurian Candidate? Who is Angela Landsbury, then? His white racist grandma?

  126. and talking about Communist sympathizers. Care to check Norm the Pod’s background, Neil? I understand Bush and Cheney have him up for visits from time to time.

    Check out that 2nd inaugural address Bush gave where at the heart of Bush’s expansionist rhetoric is a quote from a Communist.

  127. Ayn Randian the debt isn’t a big deal, neither is the cost of the war. As a percentage of our GDP its a drop in the bucket! As long as we keep growing our GDP, thereby keeping the debt down as a % of the GDP, we can easily afford a large debt. Its not a big deal, and not nearly as destructive as liberal tax hikes.

  128. “I didn’t realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off”

    Well, then, you’re just dumb.

    The candidate who promises free doctor’s visits, a cure for cancer at no cost and cheap gas, cheap houses with mortgages at 3pc, and comfortable lifetime pensions at 50 while at the same time promising that he’ll (or she’ll – listen Hitlery) stop the homos from buttfucking eachother is a shoein to become president.

    Mencken had a thing or two to say about the intelligence of the American voter.

    Do you really think that at the bottom the average American joe is different from your average frenchie who loves his government because it’s pretended to give him all of the above.

  129. While Barack Hussein abu Jihad al-Obama sips Chardonnay in the faculty lounge at Harvard, or quaffs a cappuccino in some overpriced Brooklyn coffee shop, plain ordinary Americans in the heartland are getting fed up. Fed up, I say! Fed up with the limpwristed liberal defeatists who scoff at the threat of Islamofascistdoodyheadism which threatens to drown America while liberal professors who can’t park a bicycle straight laugh up their sleeves at hard-working ordinary blue-collar salt-of-the-earth Americans who . . .

    Oh, look at the time! I’m late for my wife’s Lamaze class.

  130. Why would I shoe respect for a president who quotes and sips Chardonnay with Communist, Neil? My pappy put those fuckers in the ground to keep us free, and there your man is dining with them.

  131. shoe

    Freudian slip. As in shoe up his pasty Constitution hatin’ ass.


  132. Where were the rest born?

    I’m guessing in their (parents’) homes, the same as just about everyone for the first 8000 years (more or less) of human civilization up until 1920CE or so.

  133. Carter – 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

    Born in a hospital? That elitist!

  134. “How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that?

    Check. I was singling you out for being a total fuckwit.
    “How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?”

    I didn’t do that. I’m not in the military. And…did I already point out that you are a drooling mouthbreather?
    “How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is?”
    Yeah, a nuisance that calls for (get ready for it, cover up your codpiece) GLOBAL police work.

    “That would be a start.”
    Really, you’d shut your chawhole if I just did this much.

    “Pinko” is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.”
    Precisely, genius…it gets a rise out of fuckwits like you who still have a coldwar hangover and wake up sweating thinking oh noes teh commies.

  135. 1. Please just ignore Neil.

    2. Isn’t Obama just reading out of that book “What’s the Matter with Kansas”?

  136. “How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him…”

    Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

  137. In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water’s edge).

    Upon reflection, I realized how really dumb this is:

    1. We’re not at the water’s edge, we’re in America, criticizing our government’s foreign policy
    2. The “politics stops at the water’s edge” is supposed to be an admonition that you don’t speak ill of Americans and American policy to foreign countries or nationals. That is, Bush can bash Obama (or vice-versa), but if they’re together at NATO, then they stand together.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with worshiping the President in all times and in all places with respect to foreign policy. I suppose that Alexander Hamilton was being unpatriotic when he said that TJ had “a womanish attachment to France and a womanish resentment of Great Britain.”?? Yeah, damn him and his traitorous ways!

  138. 1. Please just ignore Neil.

    I would, but if we never engage the dumb ones, well, how are we going to see any progress?

  139. “Pinko” is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

    I think “purple” is the new socialist.

    Neil-

    You should may be consider watching this 3-part film. It is an eye-(and-brain-)opener.

  140. 1. Please just ignore Neil.

    B.P. You don’t understand. Neil serves a valuable purpose around here. He is rapidly becoming the H&R equivalent of a punching bag. Get a little light practice in without any danger of being hit back.

  141. Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

    No.

    Hey, dontcha all know it’s against some rule somplace to toss out disparaging remarks about Obamamama before joe gets up in the morn?

  142. Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

    Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

  143. Joe is probably in the living room watching America’s Team, The Boston Red Sox play some ball.

  144. Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

    BSG, seriously, what the hell is that?

  145. Battlestar Galactica?

  146. Yes, Battlestar Galactica. Since this has become the de facto Friday thread, and there are plenty of fans who hang out here, I thought I might ask.

  147. So, who won the battle? The good guys or the bad guys? Us or them?

  148. I think I found the source for the bitterness quote. It came to me after a few more cups of coffee and a couple of glasses of murh-lot (you know, I am one of those ‘heartland’ types).

    In the documentry by D. Knight, To Serve Man we learn that folks from rural areas truly are bitter, quite “gamey” tasting. City people, not so much. That was a key reason why the visitors concentrated on the large cities, rather than the rural areas.

    J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:25am | #,

    Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don’t have a large effect on the economy?

    Yes and the evidence you brought is proof of a small effect, that is corrected by the market shortly. The Wal*Mart does not really fit as they are still successful by not making the same mistakes as A&P, K-Mart and others. When they do, some better firm will replace them as a market leader.

    You are f*ing kidding me?
    That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

    I believe it is on private property, created by the owners of the apartment complex where she lived near the Pentagon. It is across the street from the Pentagon Row shopping mall. If you watch the opening sequence of No Way Out, you can see the apartment building, second one from I-395, IIRC. But that was shot before the mall was built and while Adm. Hopper was still alive.

    Mo,

    The most of the presidents before Mr. Carter were born at home rather than in a hospital. Mr. Truman would have probably wished folks believe he was born on a Grayhound bus rolling down highway 41, but I do not believe that was the case.

  149. Allahamba O’Govern just lost the election, hes really getting slammed for his “bitter” comment even by other liberal Democrats.

    But what I would I know? I’m just a “typical white person” whose “bitter” and “Clings to guns”.

    What an elitist.

  150. Hey, pinko, want to defend Obama about that quote? What do you think he meant by that?

    Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just sutpid and bitter waiting to be enlightened by their San Francisco liberal masters?

  151. Neil- You’re paranoid.

  152. Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just stupid and bitter…

    That’s not what he said.

  153. Do you denounce his dispariging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people, Elemenope?

  154. Neil, you have some substantiative criticisms of your positions to address.

    I understand, though, that latte-sipping “libruls” and your bone-headed KULTUR WAR are more important hot-topics than actually thinking.

  155. I buy my shotgun shells at the Wal*Mart, usually drive over there in my Jeep. However, I do use the finest organic hydrocarbons for fuel to/from. Haven’t been to Church lately, but the only time I go is when I am out with some chick who is nuts about going.

  156. Do you denounce his disparaging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people, Elemenope?

    Have you stopped beating your wife, Neil?

    That’s what we in the business call a “loaded question”.

  157. Do you denounce his dispariging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people

    I do renounce him.

    Do you denounce his flag-hating ways and his cloaked Islamism?

    I do renounce them.

  158. Why is Michael Young discussing local politics? I thought he’s the middle east guy, no?

  159. I thought he’s the middle east guy, no?

    Yea, but this thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

  160. his thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

    Please tell me that you’re using that in an ironic, hipster fashion rather than as having some kind of significance…

  161. Yea, but this thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

    Oh, yes, you’re right. Because of the Chicago church things with Wright, I totally forgot about the “Hussein” factor and the fact that Obama is a madrassah-educated Islamist.

  162. A_R,

    Must I tag every comment with [sarcasim] for you?

  163. Ali,

    Also, don’t forget, for many on the West Coast, Chicago is the “Middle East”, sometimes even to the geography majors.

  164. I am just a dumb LT, so take that FWIW.

    Sometimes, though, the snark, sarcasm and “ironic usage of terrible terms” gets so deep in here that I get confused.

  165. Ok, is this a loaded statement?

    “Do you denounce what Barack Obama said about working class white voters?”

    I think everyone on this thread should answer.

    I denounce him.

  166. No way! I thought you would be a CPT by now!

  167. Ayn Randian, you’re in the military right? I guess you can tell us first hand that the surge is working? Do you support General Patreaus?

  168. Neil – where is the word “white” in the full quote? Did I miss it? Or are you playing at racial identity politics?

  169. Neil,

    If you can not glean my attitude toward Sen. Obama, along with the attitudes of several others here, then there are no words or phrasing, simple enough in the Englis language, for you to understand.

  170. Or in the English language either, for that matter.

  171. No way! I thought you would be a CPT by now!

    For some reason the government sees fit to codify discrimination against Reservists, even though all the Army branches are expected to perform and deploy at the same level.

    My Active duty brethren make CPT in 39 months from commission date; I make it five years from commission date. Don’t ask me why.

    Ayn Randian, you’re in the military right? I guess you can tell us first hand that the surge is working? Do you support General Patreaus?

    – Yes, I am.
    – I can’t tell you whether it was working on a theater-wide level. I can tell you that the portion of Baghdad I was in (SW) got a lot better around November, but my understanding is that those gains may have been reversed.
    – I support whoever the Army tells me to support, unless he’s a criminal.

    Believe it or not, Neil, most of us on the tactical level really don’t know or care much about the dudes with stars on their chests, only that we have to clean up the AO when they come to visit. That’s the truth.

  172. Neil–

    Nothing you’ve since posted seems to address what I originally said. Reagan may have “understood the heartland”(whatever that means), and he spoke eloquently of American values, but behind the actor was a corporation of Religious Rightists and neoconservatives who set much of his administration’s agenda. The neoconservatives’ push in the 90s for another “Reaganesque” president was a push for someone who could appeal to the public while their guys could conduct policy in relative anonymity. Since Obama’s strengths are largely rhetorical, and since he seems inexperienced enough on actual policy issues, we could possibly see a repeat of that dynamic.

    Besides that, your juxtoposition of “heartland” and “Real American” with “San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard big city” seems odd to me. All of those places happen to still exist in America (really!), but the fact that they’re different from your own ideals makes you act as if they don’t. In effect you seem to be doing the very thing you accuse Obama of in his statement.

    This gets to the heart of distinctions between the left’s and the right’s views on modern culture. Leftists hate modern culture because its epicenter isn’t the state, or collective political action, which they tend to worship. Rightists, on the other hand, really loathe, fear and try to block out the heterogenity that is actual American culture; they prefer to think of their rustic ideal of the “heartland” as the Real America, even if it isn’t. The left and the right, when presented with aspects of culture they don’t like, each take refuge in their own religions, in this way.

  173. Come on, Ayn Randian, blacks vote Democrat 95% of the time hes obviously talking about white voters. You know, the “typical” ones like his grandma which he threw under the bus.

  174. I never understood the “City Mouse/Country Mouse” split, although I guess the whole “Cosmo/Paleo” thang is another manifestation of it.

    I mean, I work in an affluent neighborhood in Columbus, OH, and I still hear people say astonishingly-dumb yokeltarian kind of things. One lady said that Hillary was trying to bring socialism to the United States, just like Pincohet.

    blargh

  175. I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

    J sub D — so you believe the average American is below average?

  176. Come on, Ayn Randian, blacks vote Democrat 95% of the time hes obviously talking about white voters.

    There’s a difference between saying “The voters about whom he is likely talking are white” and saying that he’s “attacking white voters”. One is statistical fact; the other is loaded race-baiting.

  177. Oh, yes, you’re right. Because of the Chicago church things with Wright, I totally forgot about the “Hussein” factor and the fact that Obama is a madrassah-educated Islamist.

    That is one of the problems with Comrade Obama, he can’t make up his mind what kind of America Hater he really is!

  178. Ahem . . . most of us on the tactical level really don’t know or care much about the dudes with stars on their chests . . .

    What is wrong with the senior Aviators and Parachutists?

  179. Where were the rest born?

    Log cabins, or possibly mangers. Like FDR.

  180. there are no words or phrasing, simple enough in the Englis Anglais language, for you to understand.

  181. Come on Ayn Randian. What if John McCain said something like this? :

    “There are a lot of young, urban voters in the inner city who are bitter because they’re dependent on welfare, dependent on the government, and they grow up in a culture of dependancy. So they cling to welfare hand-outs and identity politics.”

    You and the liberal media would be screaming RACIST! RACIST! wouldn’t you?

    More P.C. double standard.

  182. Wait! Did I miss a warning from the Left that whitie is still keeping me down?

    This PC stuff is really making me miss the key warnings.

  183. What is wrong with the senior Aviators and Parachutists?

    They have their heads in the clouds?

    (ooo…bad joke)

    Actually, I’ve only met a couple senior and master airborne dudes and ONE guy who did the Panama jump.

  184. I will never, be accused of over estimating my fellow humans intelligence. I really don’t consider myself an elitest, as I’ve met many smarter than myself.

    J sub D — I think you ran afoul of joe’s law on this bad puppy. I count 4 errors here.

    Does this call for a drink?

  185. You and the liberal media would be screaming RACIST! RACIST! wouldn’t you?

    Ready…



    No. I wouldn’t.

    You know the media isn’t liberal: it’s definitely “moderate with some lap-dog tendencies toward government”, just like much of America. I wish they WERE liberal, then they’d actually investigate the Drug War and the War in Iraq.

  186. There are more races than black and white. Most of them are working class too.

  187. A_R,

    Partial my-bad there. I am still used to the “old” uniforms. When I read “stars on chest” I thought senior qualification badges, not rank, that now hangs in the center of the chest, rather than on collars or sholders (dress uniform).

  188. Most of them are working class too.

    And their best friend comes from the bottom of a glass . . .

  189. God bless
    Libertopia,
    The land that never was
    What is,is and one can spend it
    But what never was will never end
    And it’s so easy to defend it
    God bless
    Libertopia!

  190. J sub D — so you believe the average American is below average?

    I am soooo embarrassed. You caught me. I meant to convey that average isn’t really all that smart. It’s more of a realistic (pessamistic?) view of the human race. I’ll try to be more careful with my phrasing in the future.

  191. Did you all catch Obama’s response now up on YouTube and HotAir.com? Priceless.

    Check out how choreographed the event is. All whites in the background, except one single black lady and a Filipina straight out of central casting. They even have a fat white guy in a bright red shirt with the letters USMC emblazoned loudly. And next to him an old white guy with a VFW cap.

    And scores and scores of soccer moms nodding their heads to Obama’s every word.

    They are experts at image. Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days to believe his choreographed spin.

  192. Oh great, Dondi’s here to bestow upon all of us how open-ended wars are “libertarian”.

    Dondi – I don’t see the substantiative difference between that kind of “image spin” than any other kind. The fact that you read racial significance into it says more about you than him.

  193. Guy – hey, I wore BDUs too (year of 2000 enlistee), but I just adopted the right terminology faster, which is easier for us young ones πŸ˜€

  194. Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days to believe his choreographed spin.

    It’s not like you, Eric, don’t know anything about the art of spin.

    Hey, with Obama not getting your precious support, tell me, Eric, who is more mainstream libertarian –McCain or Hillary?

  195. You know the media isn’t liberal: it’s definitely “moderate with some lap-dog tendencies toward government”, just like much of America. I wish they WERE liberal, then they’d actually investigate the Drug War and the War in Iraq.

    Every time I pick up the NYT, it seems to me they are backing Neil’s ‘COMMANDER_AND_CHIEF’ (cue Souza) in his latest shit for brains iteration of foreign policy. Not only are the Neil’s beating a dead horse, they are splashing red paint on her establishment gray coat.

  196. So, Ayn Randian, I guess you agree with B. Hussein Obama on his statements right?

  197. It’s not like you, Eric, don’t know anything about the art of spin.

    Actually, Eric, lest you believe you’re good at spin, you suck at it.

  198. So, Ayn Randian, I guess you agree with B. Hussein Obama on his statements right?

    Neil, have you ever considered the possibility that if someone disagrees with you may actually not be in agreement with the other side (if such other side in fact does exist)?

  199. Amazing, no one feeds that troll over there who is singing to himself, yet he comes back for more peanuts?

  200. Bwa ha ha, I love watching Dondero get pwned by a Muslim.

    see, Ali, Neil never would have considered that because he lives the slogan “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”. Some people are just how they are.

  201. I want to be the first. DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

  202. Ali, I think my Redder State than thou response confused the poor bastard. Would a pansy like Frum have a place in my red stateadministration? No.

    Would (so-called) former Communist be giving me advice on foreign policy? Hell no.

    Would the speech writer who inserted John Reed quotes in one of my speeches be hanging from a tree on the White House lawn with shrapnel between the eyes? Of course.

  203. Seriously though, AR, I really wonder how many more Neils, Donderos, etc actually exist out there?

  204. Seriously though, AR, I really wonder how many more Neils, Donderos, etc actually exist out there?

    Unfortunately, people cannot take the good points that the Red Team makes and separate it from the crazy pants stuff that they say to sell books and make television appearances.

    For example, if you look at Rush Limbaugh, he makes a lot of economically conservative points and, from my understanding, is a relative social hendonist (divorces, drinks, pill-popping, girlfriends and massive estates) and disdainful of the evangelicals. For whatever strange reason, the evangelicals glom onto him even though he’d sooner die than play golf with a Moonie. He just makes money off of them.

    Sometimes I think that all of the talking heads really just disagree with each other to make money. Secretly they all drink together at Washington bars and figure out how to manipulate the “proles” next.

    If War is good for Business, than the Culture War is the Golden Goose.

  205. Hey, alan, wikipedia says that Frum is a senior (senior!) editor of The American Prospect. How the hell can that be? I thought the Prospect was liberal. I am confused.

  206. Check out how choreographed the event is. All whites in the background, except one single black lady and a Filipina straight out of central casting. They even have a fat white guy in a bright red shirt with the letters USMC emblazoned loudly. And next to him an old white guy with a VFW cap.

    Lots of white people. A smattering of color. A few vets. Sounds pretty much like America to me.

    You know, a guy’s giving a speech and you spend your time staring at the crowd. But of course, why would you listen to the speech. He’s from an Indonesian madrassa: Nothing he says will be the truth, right?

    And scores and scores of soccer moms nodding their heads to Obama’s every word.

    As is their right, if they wish. You do believe that, right? They can choose who to support?

    They are experts at image. Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days…

    Yeah, OK. You had me at “hello” Dondero. The gifts you give to your movement are immeasurable.

  207. Would the speech writer who inserted John Reed quotes in one of my speeches be hanging from a tree on the White House lawn with shrapnel between the eyes? Of course.

    You’re a pleasant fellow.

  208. Eric,

    BTW, my real name is not Ali. There!

  209. Michael Young, in attempting to chastise Obama for failing to understand the difference between political activity and private or community life manages to misunderstand the difference between political activity and private or community life.

    People don’t end up focusing on issues like the right to bear arms, gay marriage, faith-based and family-based issues, and the like, because of bitterness against Washington or a sense that they can’t effect change there. People focus on these issues because modern American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one’s identity and personal agendas independently of the state.

    Obama’s comments weren’t about people living their lives, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping their personal identities. He was talking about how they VOTE – how they behave SPECIFICALLY IN THE REALM OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY.

    He’s not talking about about people who take up shooting sports or go to church in contrast with voting in their economic interest, but about people who VOTE on gun issues or VOTE on religious issues or VOTE on immigration issues, as opposed to voting for their economic interest.

  210. Ayn_Randian,

    Many years ago, I heard Limbaugh on his show braving the waters on religion. He expressed doubt about the legitimacy of the Book of Revelations as a canonical work in the bible(to be fair, it does contradict matters that are attributed to Jesus). If this was well known by the evangelicals, his ratings would sink.

    Pretty surprising he would tread there, but he did.

  211. Sometimes I think that all of the talking heads really just disagree with each other to make money. Secretly they all drink together at Washington bars and figure out how to manipulate the “proles” next.

    impoceros

  212. joe, how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

    Shoot, joe, you’ve got libertarians thinking that it’d be better to vote for Obama (who’s probably against our economic outlook) on foreign policy grounds. Is that different in some way?

  213. Good luck with that long, complicated explination out in the heartland, Joe. It won’t fly there.

  214. You’re a pleasant fellow.

    I learned everything in politics from Hillary and Pinochet (this is going to kill the hipster factor, but scroll up to Neil’s accusation of Michelle Obama’s parents being Communist sympathizers, and you’ll see what I am up to).

  215. Yes! Dondero has endorsed McCain and Clinton!

    All over, folks.

  216. Indeed, P Brooks, I will thrash them from top to bottomus.

    alan – I’m sort of surprised by that as well, not that he thinks that way, but that he’d say it.

    I was listening to Jason Lewis stand in for Rush this week, and he went on and on about how the tax incentives for employer-provided healthcare is a bad thing, about how insuring a check-up is just as silly as insuring oil changes, about how the housing bailout is a bad thing because we have to let the market work…etc. etc.

    It’s obvious to me that conservatives like him and Rush are not necessarily the enemy.

  217. He expressed doubt about the legitimacy of the Book of Revelations [sic] as a canonical work in the bible (to be fair, it does contradict matters that are attributed to Jesus). If this was well known by the evangelicals, his ratings would sink.

    To be fair, both Martin Luther and John Calvin thought it was an apocryphal piece of crap, and many of the early church fathers agreed (from what we can tell from their writings).

    Many rank-and-file Christians are aware of this; some bibles even make note of it in a preface to the text (e.g. the copy I own does, and it’s a fairly mainstream distribution). So it might not place him in as hot water as you might think.

  218. Ayn Randian,

    joe, how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

    Not cycnical at all, when talking about a population that consistently ranks economic issues at the top of their concerns, who then vote based on other issues they themselves consider less important. Remember, he was talking specifically about blue-collar workers in midwestern states that have seen significant economic displacement.

    I don’t think it takes any cynicism whatsoever to think it’s regrettable that people despair of the political system addressing the issues that are most important to them.

  219. It’s not like you, Eric, don’t know anything about the art of spin.

    Don’t listen to him, Dondero. He’s a fifth columnist of the Muslim Plot To Destroy America. See item #19.

    First, Hit & Run, then… the World!1!

  220. Neil | April 12, 2008, 5:01pm | #

    Good luck with that long, complicated explination out in the heartland, Joe

    Wow, what a fucking elitist. So, Neil, do you think it’s geography or genetics that makes people in the midwest incapable of rational thought?

    I guess people like me and Barack Obama hold the ability of blue collar people in the midwest to think and understand in higher esteem than you.

  221. you’ll see what I am up to

    Oh, I know, alan. The “redder-state-than-thou” ploy. Problem is, you need to turn into a caricature to pull it off, and even then folks like Neil will swear they bleed the American Flag in technicolor and quote from Pauline epistles backwards in Hungarian just to out-Jesus you.

  222. Especially after the attempt to stampede the American public into a racial panic over Obama’s pastor failed – he’s actually doing better vs. Hillary than before that story hit – it’s a particularly bad idea to bet against the American public’s ability to think at a mature level.

  223. Just for Neil’s edification, I’m an undecided voter in Ohio, probably the most important* state for the election. And you’re not helping your side in anyway of winning me over.

    Is it too much to ask for that prominent conservatives get disaffected with McCain and endorse Barr, btw? I don’t understand the hold that the Iraq war has on the conservative rank-and-file.

  224. “Haven’t been to Church lately, but the only time I go is when I am out with some chick who is nuts about going.”

    Got to admit, man. I’ll go to church if there’s a chance I’ll get a piece of ass too.

  225. Happy Jack- That is some very entertaining stuff in that link you provide!

  226. Joe people out here don’t appreciate costal elites telling us why we should be bitter. We LIKE going to church and having guns, we’re not stupid.

    What he said was insulting and hes just lost the election. Like McGovern and Dukakis he just can’t connect to people out here.

    Hes a big city machine politician, and he won’t fly.

    AR-

    Conservatives won’t vote for Barr because we don’t want our chance for McCain winning to be Nader’ed.

    McCain is tied in the polls. TIED even though everyone said this would be a big Democrat year. Hes even tied in New York State against Obama!

    Its 1972 all over again.

  227. Because I want Dondero to answer directly (and I’m not really afraid of the internet like that), I’m going to go with my real name on this one and ask:

    Eric Dondero, why do you see significance in the racial make-up of the crowd at an Obama rally? Are you really trying to claim that Republican candidates don’t do the same thing? (that is, make it appear that their support comes from an average “Cross-Section of America”). And why do you feel the need to race-bait the black candidate?

  228. A-R,

    I don’t understand the hold that the Iraq war has on the conservative rank-and-file.

    You have to go back to the post-9/11 political strategy that Karl Rove and the Republicans adopted. They purposely vociferously worked to make issues of terrorism and war into partisan wedges. Being a conservative became synonymous with idealizing Commander Guy and supporting the Iraq War. Being a liberal meant you wanted to give Saddam Hussein a backrub, and let Osama bin Laden put your daughter in a burka.

  229. Yes! Dondero has endorsed McCain and Clinton!

    With Dondi’s track record, Michelle might as well start picking out a new china pattern for state dinners.

  230. Conservatives won’t vote for Barr because we don’t want our chance for McCain winning to be Nader’ed.

    McCain is NOT a conservative, and it’s about time you “conservatives” started voting your conscience and your beliefs rather than worry about “The Other Side”. This is why I’m not a Republican anymore: so-called “conservatives” really just hate Democrats, instead of being true conservatives a la Bob Barr and WFB.

  231. AR sure McCain is a maverick, but is still much more conservative than B. Hussein Obama, by a LOT. The ACU gave McCain a very good rating, while Obama got a ZERO!

    McCain will be a one-termer anyway due to his age, and then we can get a real conservative like Jindal in there in 2012.

  232. That’s funny, Neil, I thought Barack Obama lost the election when the Reverend Wright video broke, and when he gave the A More Perfect Union speech.

    I don’t think you’re going to be able to convince people in the midwest who are bitter about what the economy has been doing that Barack Obama is bad for noticing that.

    This insistence that everything is JUST FINE and everybody is happy happy happy in the midwest – especially blue collar workers – is what is not going to fly this election.

  233. Elemenope,

    You are probably right. However, he might also be so riled by the idea he actually looks into these people like Norm the Pod. Since Neil is not familiar with dialectical methodology, he assumes the Pod is RedBloodist like himself, and when he finds out that when the Neocons speak of democracy they have something quite a bit different in mind by the meaning of that word than, say, Alexis DeTocqueville, he might further question his misguided allegiance.

    I’m probably too much an optimist, though.

  234. I do agree, though, that Bobby Jindal is going to be the GOP’s nominee in 2012.

  235. Why is he tied in NEW YORK STATE then joe? NEW YORK! Against a Republican! LOL!

    Looks like the Democrat Party is unable to hit the football once again.

  236. sure McCain is a maverick

    I have no idea what “maverick” means in that context. What is so maverickish about McCain. Would someone explain?

  237. joe – yeah, I remember being at the 2003 CPAC and expressing doubts about the war and wearing an ACLU button.

    But I’ve always had a little hedonist/libertine in me. That’s how I ended up in Playboy.

    This insistence that everything is JUST FINE and everybody is happy happy happy in the midwest – especially blue collar workers – is what is not going to fly this election.

    joe, I don’t see anything particularly “progressive” about bashing free-trade agreements or pandering to unions.

  238. how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

    There are tons of libertarians on this very board that think this very same thing. Think of the “Kerry would be worse” folks or the “how could you vote for Obama/Hillary when they’ll raise taxes” group.

  239. We LIKE going to church and having guns…

    If you’re in the Midwest, then I seriously doubt anybody is gonna try to take either of those away from you anytime soon. And hey, if they try you can always just shoot them and then pray for their immortal souls.

    I mean, seriously? Church? Are you for fucking serious? Who’s gonna take church away from you?

  240. Regardless, I hope McCain does get “Nader’d”…the Republican party needs to get it handed to them, go out in the wilderness and get rid of this neocon/national greatness/big spending contingent that is driving all of us away.

    I’m so pissed at the Republican Party that I want to see them split.

  241. Neil | April 12, 2008, 5:24pm | #

    Why is he tied in NEW YORK STATE then joe?

    Because Obama and Hillary are still whacking at each other, and McCain has been able to stage a Look How Wonderful I Am Tour without taking many shots form his opponents.

    McCain started closing the gap immediately after he secured the nomination, and the trend has been steady since then. It’s even started to creep back down over the past week or so, to where Obama is now a point or so ahead nationally (after being a point or so behind for a couple of weeks).

  242. That’s how I ended up in Playboy.

    Hey A_R, good article.

  243. Thats right Joe. This is the best Democrat Primary EVER!

    I love it! The Democrat Party is going to loose because the liberals can’t decide which victim/affirmative action group (blacks or femminists) to reward!

  244. Ayn Randian,

    You don’t see anything progressive about environmental and worker protections? It is their absence that Obama (and Hillary) have criticized.

    You don’t see anything progressive about unions?

    Um. OK.

  245. Neil,

    If a nominating contest had gone this long under the old schedule, you could very well have been right.

    But even the worst case scenario has this contest decided in June, five full months before the election.

    To put that in perspective, there as a “conservative revolt” against McCain in the media less than a month ago.

  246. LOL Joe! Its going to be decided at the convention. Hillary isn’t dropping out. There might even be riots in Denver like 1968.

    You need three months to unite a party usually.

    That means….September..October…OVER!

    I never thought Hillary Clinton would give a Republican an easy victory, but I’m happy to see it happen!

  247. Happy Jack,
    That list was awesome. My favorite was, “5. Take control of the media and the internet by buying the corporations or a controlling stock.” I mean a Jewish group spreading fear about another group taking over the media. Hell, the whole thing reads like someone copied the Protocols for the Elders of Zion into Word and did a Find-Replace of Jewish with Muslim.

  248. joe – in terms of “progress”, no, I don’t see that much as progress. I suppose the connotative definition of progressive is what you’re after, but I can’t understand pandering to unions as truly being “progressive”. Also, there’s an element of yokeltarian “THEY TOOK OUR JERBS” to the NAFTA-bashing that Obama decided to engage in Ohio. If Ohio wants to get its shit straight, we should stop being a high-tax, high-regulation, so-con/econ-lib state and quit blaming others and glomming onto others who do.

    Hey A_R, good article.

    Thanks! That Coyote Ugly is in D.C.’s Chinatown, and it was 5 bucks “All you can drink night”…I didn’t make it to the conference the next day, needless to say…

  249. Yeah, the forced laughter thing: it doesn’t really come across the way you’re hoping.

    Anyway, the contest is more or less done already. Hillary can keep being a pain in the ass if she wants, but she can’t win. It’s going to be settled, and the winner going into general election mode, months before the convention. It’s just a question of how many months.

  250. Hillary already said shes going to stay in until August Joe. There are going to be some nasty battles at the convention.

    Hillary is a b***ch and will use her knowledge of dirty politics to make it as hard as possible for Hussein at the convention. Battles after battle on all the comitteees.

    Meanwhile, John McCain will be well rested after a unified convention and go onto win, especially wiht all of B. Hussein Obama’s boneheaded statements and his wife.

  251. One final thought: how well do you think someone who thinks that equating Barack Obama to the New Deal is a slam actually understands and speaks for blue collar voters in the the midwest?

    Mr. Young, you don’t like the New Deal? Congratulations. A whole lotta people do, you know.

    Ayn Randian, you don’t like unions? That’s nice. Do you know who really, really does like unions?

  252. Sure, Neil. Even though the ranking elders of the Democratic Party have all said that the contest will be finished before then, only people who call Obama “Hussein” really understand the awesome power of teh Hidlebeast.

    No, you’re totally right; she owns the party, and she’s just going to crush him on Super Tuesday.

  253. Ayn Randian, you don’t like unions? That’s nice. Do you know who really, really does like unions?

    In theory I do, but I don’t much care for American Unions and the way the leadership screws the members.

    And no, I don’t know who really, really does like unions.

  254. Meanwhile, John McCain will be well rested after a unified convention and a nice nap, before catching the Early Bird special at Denny’s.

    all of B. Hussein Obama’s boneheaded statements

    Yeah, poor guy. It’s just so unfortunate he’s so bad with words, and so toothless when it comes to pushing back when his political opponents try to use rhetorical ploys and tight edits to frame him.

    Poor fella, he might have gone somewhere in politics, if it weren’t for that handicap.

  255. A-R,

    Blue-collar workers in traditional manufacturing states, really, really like unions.

    Although they could probably tell you a whole lot more about their problems than you could tell them.

  256. BTW Joe, the next shoe to drop is that Obama participated in Farakkahn’s Million Man March.

    What do you think swing voters will think of that?

  257. Oh, Neil, you still haven’t answered my question.

    Which politicians running for office right now said they wanted to take church away from you?

    A cite would be great.

  258. “Which politicians running for office right now said they wanted to take church away from you?”

    Given the religious background of Obama (mother atheist, father Muslim) it shouldn’t be hard to figure out which.

  259. joe – remember Jack Stanton (ed note, yes I know he’s fictional), where he tells the union workers “your jobs aren’t coming back?” That’s progressive…that’s looking at a problem and trying to figure a solution, not promising to work all kinds of impossible miracles to “get these jobs and this factory back”.

  260. Given the religious background of Obama (mother atheist, father Muslim) it shouldn’t be hard to figure out which.

    And Neil pushes me further away from his candidate.

    You really are either a child or a lunatic.

  261. I mean, seriously? Church? Are you for fucking serious? Who’s gonna take church away from you?

    Well, they might try to take you and yours away from your church.

  262. Every one of Barack Obama’s greatest hits – the events where he really stuck it to his opponents or put together a strong case that impressed people – have come as “counterpunches” or “ju jitsu” reversals against attacks from his opponents.

    Think about it. “Just Words?” “A More Perfect Union.” “Well, I’ve got something to tell John McCain.” “Right on Day One.” You go back through this race, and that same pattern keeps popping up over and over.

    Now, he’s managed to turn this little kerfluffle into a contest between “let’s argue over the meaning of the word bitter” vs. “those people don’t realize you’re hurting.”

    The man emerged from a scandal in which the entire country saw his pastor yell “God Damn America,” and he refused to denounce him, STRONGER than before he went in! And he did so by giving a speech in which he spoke to the public about complicated and nuanced ideas and asked them to see things from someone’s else’s point of view – in the middle of a racially-charged atmosphere.

    I don’t see how a someone with that much political talent loses to a grouchy old guy in a year when the political balance is so absurdly tilted in favor the Democratic candidate.

  263. Ok Randian, well how about this?

    Obama will:

    Raise your taxes

    Go back to protectionism and scrap free trade

    Get the feds to intervene in the economy more

    Spend more

    Give us European-style Socialized medicene

    Restrict the First (fairness doctrines) and Second (gun control) amendments

    Appoint far-left liberal Democrat judges to the Supreme Court

    Is that enough reason to vote for McCain now?

  264. joe, I think he’s got quite a few things working against him, IMHO:

    1. He’s a liberal. Almost too liberal for Purple America.
    2. He advocates a quick withdrawal from Iraq, which I am not convinced is the majority position in America
    3. Let’s face it: he IS black and WAS a Muslim, and call be a snobbish elitist, but that does, coupled with the Rev. Wright thing, does not play well in the South. It’s just facts.

  265. Regardless, I hope McCain does get “Nader’d”…the Republican party needs to get it handed to them, go out in the wilderness and get rid of this neocon/national greatness/big spending contingent that is driving all of us away.

    I’m so pissed at the Republican Party that I want to see them split.

    Fuck the POTUS contest. I’m trying to decide if I can vote for anyone in the GOP come November. Punishment is exactly my thinking.

  266. What do you think swing voters will think of that?

    Before, or after, he puts together a media offensive explaining his thoughts on the matter?

    Still betting that Barack Obama can’t calm a racially-charged media stampede? REALLY?

    ‘Kay.

  267. Is that enough reason to vote for McCain now?

    Neil, every year you Republican shills get us conservatives* he same schtick: “X Democrat Candidate Would Be Worse, So you have to Swallow your Objections…”

    I’m done with it. Republicans have been promising us the “conservative/Libertarian moon” for years and years, and I’m tired of the lies. That’s all you’ve done is lie, lie and betray.

    -“Humble Foreign Policy?”
    -“Massive Deficit Spending and Wars of Choice?”
    -“Ag Subsidies, Medicare Part D”
    -“Campaign Finance Reform” (oh don’t worry the Court will take of it!)

    ALL YOU REPUBLICANS DO IS LIE TO US. Always and forever. I’m NOT in your party anymore, and it’s coming that you’re going to be abandoned by conservatives.

    *I am now libertarian, but got there by being betrayed by Republicans.

  268. Randian,

    1. It’s 2008.

    2. He’s for a staged withdrawal from Iraq, not a Kucinich/Gravel/Paul-style withdrawal. Haven’t you seen how the “fast withdrawal” people (libertarians and liberals alike) have lit into him?

    3. That certainly can’t help, but fuck the South. The Democrats don’t need the South, any more the Republicans need New England or the Pacific coast. They need their traditional base states, plus some gains in non-southern areas like the southwest, mountain west, midwest, or the now-mid-Atlantic state of Virginia.

  269. Punishment is exactly my thinking.

    YES! Anyone who dares say that “well, conservatives just have to suck it up this year and vote McCain” makes me mad enough to spit.

    The Republican betrayal of us is so blatant and unforgivable that they deserve to lose. And lose badly.

  270. A-R,

    He’s a liberal. Almost too liberal for Purple America. This is the candidate that got record cross-over votes. He is 1.3 million popular votes ahead of Hillary, and yet behind her in votes from Democrats.

  271. Well, they might try to take you and yours away from your church.

    Well, I suppose it is a little different when one of the tenets of your church dogma is serial child rape. We may not all agree on much, but very few of us see no government role in investigating and punishing organized rape.

    So long as searches were undertaken and arrests made with warrants only secured after having demonstrated probable cause to a judge, and they have a speedy and impartial trial, I have no real cause to cry.

    That being said, I might have inadvertently just now walked into endorsing the persecution of the Roman Catholic Church. Oops. At least for them it isn’t an article of faith. Seriously, they’re lousy with kiddie rapists and they don’t even have the excuse that they believe “it was God’s will”. At least the laity turned against them when it came out.

  272. I should recuse myself from any discussion of unions; I have good reason to be bitter, homicidally bitter, on the subject.

    However, that doesn’t mean I can’t be objective on their broader, political application which is — they are troglodytes who coerce membership, use Medieval guild like means to force association, economic luddites who believe in a primative pre-Menger theory of value, use political status to change laws in their favor and force workers to go through a byzantine system to collect liabilities due to them instead of through the more rational (though not always so)means of our civil courts, steal your pappy’s pension and force you to pay your own way through college; oh wait that last one is strictly personal (but not as uncommon as joe would have you believe).

  273. Neil, let’s try this again. Slower this time; try to read every word.

    Which politicians running for office right now *said* (including but not limited to: position papers, policy speeches, off-hand comments, press interviews, dramatic soliloquies, interpretive poems, drug-induced delirious ramblings) they wanted to take church away from you?

    See, I even highlighted the all important action-verb of the sentence.

    A cite would be great. Please, don’t skimp. If you are right and he has said something like this, it would be BIG NEWS ™. Do your country a service and enlighten with your evidence.

  274. Elemenope – he has nothing but shadowy speculation and odious implications, but I am sure you already knew that πŸ˜€

    I want Neil to stand up and say why THIS time it’s OH-SO-IMPORTANT that we vote Republican, because THIS TIME is the most crucial time ever for limited government and conservative ideals….

    Because I hear it from Red-Party Shills every….freakin’…election. All promises; no delivery.

  275. Hey Neil, about those divisive primaries:

    The presidential primary season may prove to be a decisive factor in Campaign 2008, not only for who won, but for the way the winners emerged from the process in the eyes of the voters. Al Gore was clearly helped, and George W. Bush was just as clearly hurt. The vice president has improved his personal image, while making gains among two key groups whose support had eluded him last year, independents and men. In contrast, many people have come to dislike Bush personally, especially former supporters of John McCain. As a consequence, the Texas governor now trails Gore for the first time in a nationwide Pew Research Center survey, by 49%-43%.

    ?. For the first time since the presidential race began to take shape more than a year ago, Gore has a lead among independents, 47%-39%. This marks a substantial gain for the vice president among these swing voters, who supported Bush by a 56%-36% margin before the primaries began.

    ?.

    Moreover, Gore leads Bush by a 51%-44% margin among voters who say they backed McCain during the primary process.

    So don’t count those chickens yet.

  276. LOL you’re comparing the 2000 Republican Primary to the 2008 Democrat Primary? How are they ewven comparable?

    There was never any serious threat of McCain going to the convention. This one is much more divisive, its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

    And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

  277. Elemenope, (Who is totally a guy, and whose manliness would only be questioned by a fool. Heh.),

    I’m troubled by the detention of all of those children between infancy and puberty.

    Yes, the weirdos make their teenaged daughters marry grown men, and may they rot in jail for that.

    But I haven’t even heard rumors that they were anything but good, loving parents to their younger children, and taking 2- and 5- and 8- and 10-year-olds away from their mothers like that is really extreme, absent an imminent threat to those little kids.

  278. its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

    I am personally going to do my best to see that the Barr campaign pulls the Republican party as far apart as it can pull it.

    This is the Rs bed; now they get to lie in it.

  279. This one is much more divisive, its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

    Uh huh. And Ann Coulter is going to campaign for Hillary Clinton.

    It’s going to take about two weeks for the Democrats to get lovy-dovey. Yeah, this is the most divisive primary since the last one.

  280. Yeah Joe, just like 1980 when Kennedy got love dovey with Carter.

    Oh yeah thats right, it didn’t happen.

    Or how about 1968? Yeah, they got unified real fast! Wait–they didn’t!

  281. Blue-collar workers in traditional manufacturing states, really, really like unions.

    UAW lost 73,500 members in 2007
    Ranks hit lowest level since 1941

    No comment is necessary.

  282. Barack Obama is a closeted homosexual man — not that there’s anythign wrong with that!!

  283. I am personally going to do my best to see that the Barr campaign pulls the Republican party as far apart as it can pull it.

    This is the Rs bed; now they get to lie in it.

    I endorse everything you have said on the subject of the Republican betrayal. I hope they get it good and
    hard, and are reduced to the permenant status of a minority party for giving us a Bush II second term.

    I’ll likely go LP this year, though if the yokels keep it up about Obama, I may revisit that option. Ultimately, I have a modest dream, America splits its vote 39% Obama, 23% LP, 18% write in for Cthulu, and the Republican/Zombie alliance can have the rest.

  284. And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

    Neil,
    Either choice would hand the election to Obama. McCain would either hitch his wagon to one of the least popular administrations since WWII or he would delegitimize his whole “stay the course” argument. If he brought Petreaus over, he’d say the whole stay the course, the surge is working is bullcrap because he brought back the manager of the whole effort. Heck, the bumper stickers write themselves, “General Petreaus got to leave Iraq, why can’t our troops?”

  285. Neil | April 12, 2008, 6:31pm | #

    Yeah Joe, just like 1980 when Kennedy got love dovey with Carter.

    I’m going to type “LoL,” but only because I actually, in meatspace, laughed out loud at you, Neil.

    We can’t compare the 2008 election to the 2000 election, so we should compare it to an insurgent primary campaign against a sitting president, and the Democratic primary during the height of the Vietnam War?

    Boy, Neil, you sure do have an insightful understanding of the Democratic Party, and political history in general.

  286. And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

    Well- there is no reason whatsoever to pretend the Republicans are not stupid enough.

  287. alan – Right on! I wish that I could reach more disaffected conservatives, but most of them (well, the pseudo-conservatives, anyway) seem to only feel betrayed on immigration, where I disagree with them.

    I seem to notice that “True Libertarian” Eric Dondero failed to reply to me, even though I used my real name and everything. Is he afraid to answer the question, or did he see a Muslim across the street and is currently in residence under his bed?

  288. J sub D,

    You might not know this, but whether you get to join a unions isn’t actually a consequence of your desire to join one.

    Some people – no, seriously – who lose their jobs in unionized industries then go to work in non-unionized workplaces.

    No, really, it’s true!

    And not just that, but there have been large job losses in industries where unionized shops are more common in the midwest.

    No, seriously, that actually happened! You can look it up.

  289. Since it’s an open thread (I should know, I declared it so), I can’t really be off topic.

    Leonard Pitts is one of the better Op Ed writers in the US. Even when you don’t agree, you find yourself nodding at his points. This is what he penned about the mayor of my fair(?) city –

    Frankly, Mr. Mayor, you remind of me of Eliot Spitzer, but without the class. What he did to a prostitute, you’re doing to a people.

    For that, sir, you should be ashamed.

    Ya gotta laugh if you live here.

  290. J sub D- Did he do it to you?

  291. BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

  292. It’s “Petraeus”, Neil…if you’re going to fall down and worship the man, the least you could do is spell his name correctly.

    Mo – insightful commentary about McCain’s VP pick. I can’t believe that Charlie Crist is still a credible pick; yeah, two old white guys…that’s not stereotypical Republican or anything.

  293. joe, you really didn’t get my point?

    Those jobs are fucking gone forever. The UAW is as resposible as anybody for those jobs being gone forever. I don’t believe you are that dense.

    Perhaps they can continue their futile efforts to oirganize the Toyota and Honda workers down south. Those workers have made a choice, haven’t they joe?

  294. IT could be Sarah Palin, too.

    Not only would she be a great VP pick, but shes hot!

  295. Ya gotta laugh if you live here.

    I believe living in Detroit gives the rest of the country free reign to laugh too.

  296. J sub D- Did he do it to you?

    8.7 milliion taxpayer bucks because he didn’t want his extra-marital affair found out. That price is only going to rise.

    So to answer your question Ali, Yeah, I am getting fucked.

  297. Ayn_Randian,

    My current answer to them (and I engaged this argument with my mentally challenged uncle) when they use the threat of a Democratic victory is to ask them?

    What is the worse the Democrats can do to us if they win everything? Turn this country in Sweden? I’m philosophically opposed to most aspects of that party, but they are less a threat to my welfare than permanent wars in the Middle East.

  298. oh yeah, Neil, because if McCain needs to secure a state, it’s the key state of freakin’ Alaska.

    I’m seriously astounded at conservative support for a man who thought about switching parties a few years ago. Or did every one forget that already? Or how he thought about being Kerry’s running mate?

    How embarrassing for you, Neil, that you support a Democrat in pseudo-conservative-clothing.

  299. BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

    AFSCME ?

    joe,

    There is a difference in voting for your economic interest and voting for a candidate or Party who promises to serve your economic interest.”Taxing the rich” doesn’t do a thing for joe sixpack.He can expect an increase in excise taxes and fees as well.

  300. BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership

    Link please. Is this private sector union membership or is the figure ballooned by public employeees?

  301. J sub D | April 12, 2008, 6:45pm | #

    joe, you really didn’t get my point?

    Nope. When you put up a statistic about union membership, in response to a comment about people liking unions, and then write “No comment necessary,” people are going to read that as a statement about workers’ opinion about unions.

    Now settle down.

  302. I believe living in Detroit gives the rest of the country free reign to laugh too.

    I should get angry about that, but this Mongolian gang bang known as Detroit politics does make us a national laughingstock.

  303. 8.7 milliion taxpayer bucks because he didn’t want his extra-marital affair found out. That price is only going to rise.

    So to answer your question Ali, Yeah, I am getting fucked.

    MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

  304. Well, I suppose it is a little different when one of the tenets of your church dogma is serial child rape.

    Link, LMNOP? Because the FLDS is essentially the mainstream Mormon church the way it was in the 1850s, and damned if I can recall anything in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price advocating or condoning “serial child rape.” Unless you are referring to the 12th Article of Faith — “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Oh, wait, that says the exact OPPOSITE of what you alleged.

    Some FLDS appear to have a differing view on when the age of consent ought to begin (puberty vs. 16 in Texas), and the ones who acted on those views and broke the law in Texas should be held accountable, but quit talking out of your ass, mmm-kay?

  305. joe, about the UAW, I say again –

    “Perhaps they can continue their futile efforts to organize the Toyota and Honda workers down south. Those workers have made a choice, haven’t they joe?”

    What do you think?

  306. SIV,

    I’m working from memory here, but IIRC, the increase came in service unions, and in the west, especially California and Nevada. Casino workers, for example, are unionizing like crazy.

    And while I understand your point (that it is not actually in the economic interest of working people to vote for Democrats), I was talking about politics, not policy.

  307. J sub – given that Mark Dann (the Ohio AG) is mobbed up to his eyeballs and corrupt as all hell, at least you don’t live in Ohio, man.

    Seriously.

  308. J sub D,

    I think the laws forbidding employers to enter into certain contracts with their workers – laws sometimes called “Right to Work Laws” – make it very difficult to unionize in southern states.

    Not impossible – registration drives in real hell-hole industries like chicken processing tend to meet with great success – but much more difficult.

  309. The virtual world is rapidly evolving into a close representation of the real world with all the opportunities and consequences of the real world. However, there may be many things possible in the virtual world that can’t be done in the real world. Our challenge is to figure out what these actions are before our adversaries. To do this, we need to be able to recognize the behavior of a real threat and exploit the information that is available to us in the virtual world.

    As our adversaries continue to expand their presence and use of virtual environments, we need to keep pace and possibly leapfrog their abilities; else, we will miss the indicators for the next attack.

    “Gentlemen, we cannot allow a virtual terrorist gap!

  310. So long as searches were undertaken and arrests made with warrants only secured after having demonstrated probable cause to a judge, and they have a speedy and impartial trial, I have no real cause to cry.

    CPS doesn’t need “probable cause” and warrants.
    All they need is an allegation- even if it is an anonymous tip.Federal law requires any allegation of abuse or neglect be investigated, even if believed unfounded or falsely made for vindictive purposes, and the accuser has %100 anonymity. Have they found the phantom “16 year old girl” who made the phone call yet?

    I’m not necessarily defending the beliefs and practices of the FLDS church.

  311. prolefeed – you have to wonder, though, that even though it’s not explicitly stated, if it’s been occurring for a number of years, don’t you have to think that there is de facto something amiss with the FLDS?

  312. I think the laws forbidding employers to enter into certain contracts with their workers – laws sometimes called “Right to Work Laws”

    Jeez, joe, RTW Laws prohibit forcing employees to pay dues, not prohibit union membership.

  313. 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

    This wouldn’t have anything to do with the stupefying expansion of the government under George W Peron, would it?

  314. But I haven’t even heard rumors that they were anything but good, loving parents to their younger children, and taking 2- and 5- and 8- and 10-year-olds away from their mothers like that is really extreme, absent an imminent threat to those little kids.

    It’s a point I had considered, and you are right that it is worrisome. On the other hand, these were the same mothers who were borderline (if not sometimes enthusiastically) complicit in their childrens’ victimization.

    It’s a tough one because I’m not crazy about these kids being raised by the state, but the parents they have thought by-and-large that child sexual abuse was normal, healthy even.

  315. MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

    Of course Detroit is < 1,000,000 people. Call it $10 each. That includes the one year olds. Wait until those text messages go public. The damage is going to be enormous and this dip shit hip hop criminal mayor* is going to be drug kicking and screaming out of the Manoogian mansian.

    Like “ignorant hillbilly whackjob preacher”, dip shit hip hop criminal mayor may become part of my H&R vernacular.

  316. The governor of my state wants emergency drought legislation that will give him czar like authority. Of course, it is raining right now, has rained more days this year than not; the nineteen inches we have received already this year just falls short of an average 21 inches per year. So what is it really about?

    My city recently built a large water reservoir. He would like to be able to divert its water to the suburbs of Raleigh to subsidize the growth of those ‘burbs without having to pay us for it. How is that for local chicanery?

  317. MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

    Of course Detroit is < 1,000,000 people. Call it $10 each. That includes the one year olds. Wait until those text messages go public. The damage is going to be enormous and this dip shit hip hop criminal mayor* is going to be drug kicking and screaming out of the Manoogian mansian.

    Like “ignorant hillbilly whackjob preacher”, dip shit hip hop criminal mayor may become part of my H&R vernacular.

  318. Double post, my fuckup.

  319. “Thousands (of AFSCME members) Standing Around”

  320. Ayn Randian,

    “Right to Work” laws prohibit employers from entering into contracts with collective bargaining units that include closed-shop conditions. No, they don’t forbid union membership – they just make it harder to organize workplaces, as people who join unions know they are much weaker.

    And, just in case anybody is wondering, no, I’m not interested in a discussion about Right to Work laws right now. We’ve got some good stuff on the table right now.

    P Brooks,

    Probably not, since that’s not where the gains were.

  321. J sub D — joe stubbornly refuses to believe that the hemorrhaging of market share by the Big 3 companies is largely due to them having workers unionized by the UAW, while Toyota and Honda have American factories deliberately picked to be far away from centers of unionized activity. Even if he lived in Detroit like you and saw each day the damage the UAW has inflicted in Michigan, joe will not take a more reality-based POV on this issue. It’s a quasi-religious view immune to facts or logic.

  322. J sub D- Oh, you’re right, we’re only talking about Detroit tax payers. But, still, $10 dollars is like nothing these days.

  323. joe, I think the Toyota and Honda workers view what has happened to their brethren up north and don’t want to repeat those mistakes. That is not spin. That is my honest reading of the situation.

    Oh! Lookattthat! Here is some more UAW news. The gist is new hires are going to be making half of the veteran line workers.

  324. The only difference between Ford and Toyota is union membership in their American factories.

    Only the most stubborn avoiders of reality don’t understand that.

  325. Ali, consider yourself placed on the J sub D shit list ofm irritating posters. πŸ˜‰

  326. J sub D,

    I’m curious – what, exactly, point do you think you are making to me by linking to that story? That the UAW has become flexible in its contracts in response to the trouble facing Ford and GM?

    Uh…ok. That’s every bit as interesting as it is relevant.

    If you’re going to turn this into a general, off-topic anti-union spree, you go on with your bad self. Just don’t act as if I’m involved.

  327. joe, I never claimed it the only difference. I do claim it is a significant one. If you can’t see that, I strongly recommend LASIK.

  328. That the UAW has become flexible in its contracts in response to the trouble facing Ford and GM?

    joe, the general gist is that the UAW is what caused Ford and GM’s problems in the first place.

    The overall trend of your side’s politicians to refuse to acknowledge the global economy and pander to economic protectionism is what gets my goat.

  329. Joe — I figured you’d be around at some point to talk up the deeply nuanced position of the Golden Nominee that is being tightly framed by the bareknuckled, disloyal opposition, as opposed to admitting, at least, “Yeah, ’twas a poor choice of words, especially given the audience. Time to move on.”

    I agree that Obama will probably have a crafty follow-up to smooth this one over, but the lack of fallout for this one will be due more to receiving a pass, coupled with more interesting things popping up in the news cycle, than some transcendent understanding between the candidate and a wise public. (It also helps that this dropped on a Friday afternoon.)

    Face it, Mr. Smooth Oratory clumsily put forth a bad argument, in front of a like-minded crowd. If not, perhaps he should peddle the exact same false-consciousness bullshit to some gun-clinging rabble in the Midwest, without applying polish.

  330. Don’t try to meta up yet, Joe. You chose to defend unions, you should live with the consequences.

  331. joe, open thread so I can’t be off topic by calling out your B/S. The point is that son GM and Ford workers will be making LESS than Honda and Toyota workers in the United States. They will still be paying union dues of course.

  332. “Right to Work” laws protect workers from being involuntarily forced to join unions and pay dues when they do not want to do so. These laws do not stop unions from organizing those workers who do feel it is in their interest to join a union, or prohibit employers from employing unionized workers or collectively bargaining with those workers’ union representatives. These laws are libertarian laws preventing workers from coercion by the 51%+ majority who choose to form a union.

  333. son – soon.

  334. The lets pretend unions are doe eyed angels of social consciousness angle is not going to work. Too many people have first hand knowledge of their methods.

  335. Ali, consider yourself placed on the J sub D shit list ofm irritating posters. πŸ˜‰

    Oh, darn!

  336. Ayn Randian,

    Ford and GM were unionized in the 1920s, so that seems a bit simplistic.

    Unions didn’t decide the Big Three should build big gas guzzlers in the early 80s. Unions didn’t design the Buick Reatta.

    American car companies designed and sold inferior products. It wasn’t a non-unionized work force that make the Accord a better seller than the crap coming out of Detroit. The Big Three got corpulent and lazy, and couldn’t react the competition.

    Certainly, the UAW was a part of that, but the narrative of the mean union preventing what would otherwise have been decades of prosperity based on massive sales of K Cars is real reach.

    It’s an effort to shoehorn history into far too neat a narrative, and loses so much as to render what’s left useless.

  337. But seriously, go to Europe (as I did last week) and start spending some money and you will soon realize how little $10 has come to offer.

  338. Hai Neil–

    Congratulations, nitwit. I’m voting for Obama now.

    If you’re some kind of DNC plant, you sure were effective.

  339. Ohnoes, B.P! Not teh Nuance!

    I kan haz sownd bite?

  340. If you’re some kind of DNC plant, you sure were effective.

    I think that this is a more plausible proposition than that there does in fact exist people as stupid as Neil.

  341. Oops, there I go again, with my takes-more-than-six-words explanations.

    Unions bad! No, unions good!

    All the fault of unions! No, none the fault of unions.

    Oh, and J sub? If you want to “call me on my bullshit,” please try to pick a topic – unlike the growth of unions last year, and their popularity among industrial workers – on which I am not factually correct. You DO remember that that was the subject, right? Political opinions about unions?

  342. I would just like to note that, even though there’s no chance in hell I’m going to read all these fucking posts, that joe and I are united in slamming Neil. joe, high five, baby. Keep it real for me as I get loaded and bang my girlfriend.

  343. What’s so nuanced about this, joe?:

    I mean, John McCain-it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch?

    No nuance there…it’s bad that John McCain wanted irresponsible companies and buyers to take their damn lumps for betting the wrong way. Oh no! says Obama…we need a PLAN to manage this!

  344. But seriously, go to Europe (as I did last week) and start spending some money and you will soon realize how little $10 has come to offer.

    On the bright side, I have a French friend who are taking advantage of the diminished value of the dollar to vacation here this summer. He asked me to find a place on the coast near Hilton Head. I’ll get a free place to stay for a few weeks, and all I have to do is make the arrangements for him. Woo-hoo!

  345. Keep it real for me as I get loaded and bang my girlfriend.

    Yikes, well, at least I’m doing half that plan (that is, banging your girlfriend πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ )

  346. If you want us to believe someone would sleep with you, Ep, it’s going to take more than me to “keep it real.”

    Do we know her? Or is she from another town we’ve never been to…in Canada?

    πŸ˜‰

  347. Yeah joe, unions sure work well thats why the economy of Ohio and Michigan is booming while places like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas are in the crapper.

  348. Yikes, well, at least I’m doing half that plan (that is, banging your girlfriend πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€ )

    You must be a ninja, because she’s just upstairs and I never saw you come in.

  349. Ford and GM were unionized in the 1920s, so that seems a bit simplistic.

    joe, you should read your union history lest you lose your progressive credentials. You can start with The Battle of the Overpass.

    This is being unfair to joe. I grew up in a UAW household in the glory days of the big 3 (+AMC). Grasping the broaad swath of the automotive industry, the Big 3 and the UAW is not something you are going to learn in a sociology 101 curriculum.

  350. A-R,

    WTF are you talking about? I was responding to what BP wrote about my comments being too nuanced.

    And why are you asking me about what Barack Obama said?

  351. Do we know her? Or is she from another town we’ve never been to…in Canada?

    Uh…she’s from Yellowknife…uh…she’s Inuit…shit…

  352. Cesar,

    I find that discussions based around “unions work well” vs. “no they don’t” are really, really fucking valuable. Don’t you?

    Allow me to retort:

    Nuh-UH!!

    Oh, wait, I didn’t start with “Yeah, Cesar,” so I guess I lose.

  353. French friend who are taking advantage

    I originally made that plural than changed it because only one is a friend, the other are clients I have not met in person. Syntactic error due to increased accuracy. My strengths are my weaknesses.

  354. Oh, and J sub? If you want to “call me on my bullshit,” please try to pick a topic – unlike the growth of unions last year,

    Gladly, like I said, this is unfair to you.

  355. LoL, Episiarch. I hope you kept that picture that comes with the wallet.

  356. AR, McCain SAID he would let the market handle it, and then proceeded to favor a bail-out for Bear-Sterns

    What a maverick!

  357. LoL, Episiarch. I hope you kept that picture that comes with the wallet.

    Well, my mom said I can…I mean, my basement…SHIT

  358. Wow, the fact that I was a decade off sure does put a stake through my heart.

    I mean, the fact that the car companies starting sucking 40 years after unionization instead of 50 is so fucking important, I must now go hide my face in shame.

    It’s funny – you are so wound up, you’re getting a woody because you caught me making a misstatement that has nothing to do with the argument.

    Whatever, sub.

  359. Cesar, do you admire McCane more because he’s a Straight Talker, or because he’s all Maverick-y?

  360. I said nothing about the nuance of your comments, Joe. I was simply pointing out the predictability of you coming around to let us know that the haters are pulling, out of context, a soundbite from one of Obama’s meta-fantastic speeches. We get it — Obama is the smartest guy in the room whose words, when used against him, are not what the bad guys want you to think they seem. Just like last time.

  361. Honestly, I do have to go service my girlfriend (it sounds so mercenary), but I am glad I could pop in briefly. LMNOP, I did watch the BSG episode last night but I was fucking hammered and…can’t remember what happened. I had better watch it again. Don’t kill each other, guys.

  362. AR, McCain SAID he would let the market handle it, and then proceeded to favor a bail-out for Bear-Sterns

    What a maverick

    I kinda thought, “What a pussy”. But I’m a mean person who isn’t concerned about the impending economic meltdown, if some folks have to pay for their irrresponsible decisions.

  363. Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

    I’m always behind on this stuff.

  364. Joe,

    The federal government (via CAFE standards) also put a world of hurt on the big three.

    What the big three made well and made good money on were light and heavy pickup truck and SUVs. They faced no competition from the foreign companies in this segment and it was a cash cow for them.

    The cafe standards forced them to produce a substantial amount of high mileage vehicles that they lost money on.

    They were not good at making these cars, no one wanted to buy them (the Japanese produced superior products in this segment), and it forced them to compete head to head against the Japanese who were much better at building cars in this segment.

    So it was not just unions and management that damaged the big three, the federal government piled on a lot of economic damage.

  365. Holy crap! 300+ posts? What the hell happened? Is it raining at Fenway or something?

    A_R, yea, if I ever get back on duty this will be my 3rd style utility uniform. I started with OD Fatigues, khakis and dress greens/blues.

    My son was asking about breaking in these new boots. Is that shower trick for real, if you don’t go out and buy Nikes instead?

    Not sure who I am quoting here: “sure McCain is a maverick”

    My ass, he went to the vocational school in Annapolis, MD.

    BTW, at breakfast I had to skip the link sausage because I am a vagetarian and they did not have a Patti.

  366. Yeah joe, unions sure work well thats why the economy of Ohio and Michigan is booming while places like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas are in the crapper.

    Here in G-boro, you will find a Honda Air plant, and a Volvo truck factory.
    Workers in need of unions for wage discrimination and safety reasons? Get out of here, crazy kid. Maybe in the tobacco, hog, and poultry industry that received protection from liabilities though the years by the Democratic machine.

  367. Oh look folks! Now Billary is touting her experience with guns!.

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  368. No one on this thread, IIRC, has so far said that the UAW is the sole cause of the Big 3’s troubles. A major cause, sure. The biggest cause, most likely. Basically, the problem is that it is suicidal in the short-run for one of the Big Three to try and adopt the non-unionized business models of Honda and Toyota — the UAW would go strike until the company went under, and then force the two survivors to accept their terms. But, it is also suicidal in the long-run to do business with the UAW. The Big Three will keep on losing market share to Toyota and Honda, year after year, until they finally get finished off, one by one.

    Yes, the Big Three have made some blunders, in particular chasing short-term profits in light trucks while letting their market share in small cars get taken away. That, and making shoddily built cars that break down constantly. (Yes, they’ve greatly improved the quality lately, but they’re still significantly behind the Japanese for most of their product line.) Now that the Japanese car makers are building light trucks like the Toyota Tundra, and gas prices have further eroded the total market for this insanely profitable light truck segment, the end game is near.

  369. No joe, I caught you pretending to be knowledgeable about a subject, when you aren’t. Whatever. You may commence with personal attacks.

  370. B.P. | April 12, 2008, 7:40pm | #

    I said nothing about the nuance of your comments, Joe

    Let’s go to the tape:

    B.P. | April 12, 2008, 7:17pm | #

    Joe — I figured you’d be around at some point to talk up the deeply nuanced position of the…

    Res ip.

    I was simply pointing out the predictability of you coming around to let us know that the haters are pulling, out of context, a soundbite from one of Obama’s meta-fantastic speeches.

    Actually, I didn’t make any statements about context. Were you thinking about someone else, or do you just not know what the word “context” means?

    We get it — Obama is the smartest guy in the room whose words, when used against him, are not what the bad guys want you to think they seem. Just like last time.

    And any time you’d care to take a stab at arguing that this statement is incorrect, you know where to find me.

    Let me give you a hint: neither “You’re comment is favorable to Obama,” nor “You have made a similar comment before” is, as a matter of fact, relevant to the question of whether I am correct.

  371. Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

    I’m always behind on this stuff.

    The French are always cool. It’s just like high school. Sometimes you like the cool kids, sometimes you can’t stand ’em.

  372. Oh look folks! Now Billary is touting her experience with guns!.

    Is it time for the tank ride yet?

  373. B.P.,

    Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

    Even I have stopped correcting others for using a capital F in that word, although I have not changed my style yet. seems you might be a bit behind, but it happens on all sorts of things. Scroll up, I did not even know that whitie was still keeping us down!

  374. Hillary also said in that story that she has hunted ducks.

    How much do you wanna bet that turns out to be completely false?

  375. The French are always cool.

    now, that is a bit much.

  376. Hillary also said in that story that she has hunted ducks.

    Maybe at Kroger’s with a $20 bill.

  377. My son was asking about breaking in these new boots. Is that shower trick for real, if you don’t go out and buy Nikes instead?

    Ehh, I found that the desert boots pretty much broke themselves in. I used the shower trick on the old black ones, but I wouldn’t recommend showering in what are essentially suede boots!

    joe – I’m more addressing the general bullshit of Obama claiming he’s in favor of blue-collar workers’ “economic interests” and then wanting to make them pay more in taxes to bail out McMansion buyers and house-flippers.

    Incredible, really, that the people who made the responsible choice and pay their mortgage on time now have to dig deeper for the retards who don’t. Thanks, Obama (and McCain, good looking out, Cesar) for wanting screw over my working-class parents for economic retards.

  378. Apparently, J sub, I’m more knowledgeable than you about the growth of union membership last year.

    You may commence with personal attacks.

    Oh, piss off. I’m writing about unions, ideas, and facts. You throw out an irrelevant “Gotcha! You misstated a fact!” and tell me I’m not knowledgeable, and I’m the one one commencing personal attacks?

    Whatever.

  379. As for McCain’s VP, why not another Alaskan–Ted Stevens!

  380. J sub D, you’ll have to take the brunt of the abuse because Joe likes me and wont speak ill of me.

    It is funny that this thread began with most of us defending Obama, and making a prison bitch out of a National Greatness hack, and now we are back to where it usually goes — Purple Team versus Blue Team.

    B.P., I probably do deserve points deducted, but I’ll be too stoned off my ass to care.

  381. Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 7:52pm | #
    The French are always cool.

    now, that is a bit much.

    They really are. Sorry, but it is true.

  382. Seriously, Guy, what about the Rainbow Warrior incident? I figured that would give the French cool points, if anything. Well, that and Yorktown.

  383. Now is the time to see who the true ‘mericans are on here. The race is about to begin.

  384. Ayn Randian,

    joe – I’m more addressing the general bullshit of Obama claiming he’s in favor of blue-collar workers’ “economic interests” and then wanting to make them pay more in taxes to bail out McMansion buyers and house-flippers

    I don’t know a great deal about his specific policy proposals – and, frankly, I doubt you do, either – but this housing crisis has sent the economy into a recession, which could possibly turn into the deepest recession in decades.

    The economy tanking is going to hurt blue-collar workers a hell of a lot more than the minute cost a bail-out would have on them.

    You would oppose a bailout whether it was good, bad, or indifferent for blue-collar workers, on philosophical grounds. Don’t hide your philosophical argument behind them, the way the Iraq hawks hide theirs behind “the troops.”

    And while I shouldn’t have to say this, there is nothing in this post which expresses an opinion one way or the other about any proposed policy regarding the mortgage meltdown, and I’m not going to respond to any comments that read one into it.

  385. Yeah Joe, Obama’s supposedly nuanced position, not yours. I used the word nuance, so I can see the confusion.

    And context…

    “… when his political opponents try to use rhetorical ploys and tight edits to frame him.”

    And thanks for the hint.

    It’s been fun, but I gotta go finish my taxes. And I just got a text from some gal from Yellowknife.

  386. I was unaware this was a “blue team vs. purple team” thread.

    Sad that people do that, talking about sides instead of ideas.

  387. Still waiting for the link, joe. The one that diffentiates between public and private sector union growth. Y’know, like I provide link when I make assertations. If you have already provided said reference, I apologize for missing it.

  388. Sad that people do that, talking about sides instead of ideas.

    oh you’re too much. You’re sad that people take sides rather than ideas…except you said:

    I don’t know a great deal about his specific policy proposals

    But you’re on his “side” anyway. Laughable, really.

  389. J sub D, you’ll have to take the brunt of the abuse because Joe likes me and wont speak ill of me.

    No. It’s cool with me. When joe goes personal, I know I’m getting his goat and it make me feel sooooo good.*

    Got that link yet, union boy?

    * Not really. That was just to bother him some more.

  390. You would oppose a bailout whether it was good, bad, or indifferent for blue-collar workers, on philosophical grounds.

    Did you think that my philosophical beliefs somehow sprung fully-formed, Athena-like, from my head? Or do you think that real-world examples like this may have formed my beliefs?

    Ponder that.

  391. I already gave you a link. You want to research the question, you go on with your bad self.

    Randian,

    I was talking about his policy proposals in the particular topic of the mortgage meltdown. I thought that was clear from the fact that our exchange was about the particular topic, but I guess not.

    And I’ve found that philosophy and character are more important in choosing a candidate for office than policy wonkery. In a checks and balances system, no one implements their detailed policy as stated.

    But, regardless, I’m glad you were amused.

  392. A-R,

    Or do you think that real-world examples like this may have formed my beliefs?

    I think that political differences have a lot more to do with values than anything else, even to the point of leading people to develop slanted understandings of the facts.

  393. And I’ve found that philosophy and character are more important in choosing a candidate for office than policy wonkery.

    Endlessly repeating “Hope and Change” does not a Philosophy Make.

    I didn’t ask Obama to be wonky; I asked him to actually say something other than empty platitudes.

  394. Not really. That was just to bother him some more.

    What a child.

    But remember, folks, I’m a big meanie.

  395. Randian, if you think that Obama has been less substantive than either Hillary or McCain, you just proved my point about people letting their philosophies interfere with their understanding of the facts.

    Here’s a question: have you ever gone to the candidates’ home pages and made up your own mind about their levels of policy specificity? Are you actually saying that Barack Obama has not defined a clear philosophy as plainly as Hillary Clinton and John McCain?

    Or are you just basing those opinions on the fact that other people have said so?

  396. A_R,

    Seriously, Guy, what about the Rainbow Warrior incident? I figured that would give the French cool points, if anything. Well, that and Yorktown.

    Ahem, I believe you have missed some of my greatest work where that is mentioned quite early. Posted that about 5 years ago.

  397. joe

    Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn’t fit the ideology it doesn’t count; no thinking is necessary.

  398. What a child.

    J sub D | April 12, 2008, 7:46pm You may commence with personal attacks.

    Can I call ’em or what?

    Later folks, I have to get up early to harass the churchgoers.

  399. MK2,

    Ayn Randian is far, far better than most when it comes to thought and fairness, from what I’ve seen. I certainly wouldn’t single him out like that.

  400. I’m sorry, J sub D, “commence” means “start.”

    Which means you “commenced” the personal attacks at 6:45, when you called me dense.

    But don’t let that throw you. You’re sexy when you pout.

  401. J sub D | April 12, 2008, 7:46pm You may commence with personal attacks.
    J sub D | April 12, 2008, 8:08pm | #

    * Not really. That was just to bother (joe) some more.

    Ha ha.

  402. joe, all I’m saying is that I really don’t understand the devotion to Obama or the pretend idea that he’s more “for the people” than anybody else.

    Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here.

    hmmm, how reflexive of you, to say nasty things about me without even really knowing me. Almost…fundie…that.

  403. “Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn’t fit the ideology it doesn’t count; no thinking is necessary.”

    Gawd, save us from the self-absorbed trolls who come here to pretend they’re the objective voice of pure truth and reason.

  404. Sparky – just wait ’til he starts posting about the “echo chamber”….then we’ll know that he’s a Prophet of Our Savior, Dan T.

  405. Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn’t fit the ideology it doesn’t count; no thinking is necessary.

    Of course, reading what A_R writes is not needed for the knee-jerk reaction.

  406. Well, A-R, I think that “devotion” – which is so unlike the reasoned support people give to small government conservative candidates, I guess – stems from the fact that people 1) hold political beliefs similar to his, and 2) appreciate his leadership style, and how it differs from the usual insults to our intelligence.

  407. There are some echo-chamber fundamentalists among the regulars here.

    But Ayn Randian? C’mon.

  408. “…then we’ll know that he’s a Prophet of Our Savior, Dan T.”

    His handle is disturbingly close to another ghost of trolling past, M1EK. M1EK would at least occasionally attempt to engage in substantive discussions, but boy was he ever _really, really_ angry about it.

  409. which is so unlike the reasoned support people give to small government conservative candidates, I guess

    joe, well, it really is different. Small-government guys (real ones) will snap with candidates rather quickly. What baffles me is that the Democratic Party is relatively opposed to Iraq, but Obama’s position is basically a phased withdrawal based on “conditions on the ground”…who does that sound like? Has he denied what Samantha Power said in March about how 16 months is the “best case scenario?”

  410. There are some echo-chamber fundamentalists among the regulars here.

    I’m appreciative of that, joe.

    joe, I thought you were a Bill Clinton guy…what’s up with letting the two main candidates bash NAFTA, anyway?

  411. Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here.

    If by “fundamentalist” you mean someone who understands, based on observing real world outcomes, that private voluntary transactions tend to have much better outcomes than coerced government monopoly transactions, then use the correct terms: “radical libertarian” or (in Ayn_Randian’s case) “Objectivist”, rather than trying to smear us by associating us with the nutcase religious fundies.

  412. Featuring John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Joe Lieberman singing in turn.

    (John McCain)

    Got me a surge
    Gonna set Iran
    Gonna set Iran on fire!

    (Lindsey Graham)

    At the end of the day
    This maverick won’t stray
    Cause war’s his hearts desiiiire

    (Joe Lieberman)

    I’m just an old neocon
    Yeah I’m a huge choad
    I can’t wait
    CANT WAIT
    For more chinese loans!

    VIVAAAAAAAAAA VIAGRA!

    (repeat 4x)

  413. OMG! All this “fundie” talk reminds me that it is warm enough to go back to Church!

  414. Ayn Randian,

    I’ve been talking about a phased withdrawal from Iraq since 2005, and I’ve opposed the war since the summer of aught-two.

    The Republican talking point about a “precipitous withdrawal” isn’t actually a fair description of what most Democrats want. Most of us are not like Kucinich, Paul, or Gravel.

    Speaking only for myself, “We need to be as careful getting out of this war as we were careless getting in” isn’t a policy that I need to sell out to support; it’s what I’ve been saying for years.

    Conditions on the ground matter. Ending this war is going to be a process, and iterative process, which each step being determined, in part, by what the previous step accomplished. I think anybody who claimed they could state what the beginning, middle, and end of that withdrawal is going to look like is being patently dishonest.

  415. joe, I thought you were a Bill Clinton guy

    There’s really no need to descend into personal attacks.

    I’m a Kerry guy. I like trade liberalization deals, but I want them to include strong worker and environmental protections – and not as poison pills, but in order to prevent the most irresponsible parties from committing depredations upon the workers and the environment in developing countries. I think that Obama and Hillary are both pretty much in the same place.

    BTW, so did Bill Clinton. Prior to NAFTA’s approval in the Senate in 1993, he got side-deals on labor and the environment attached to it. They’re described on the Wikipedia NAFTA page.

  416. A good definition of fundamentalism in political discourse is the belief that adhering to a particular set of beliefs inoculates you from ordinary human foibles, so you don’t bother examining your own opinions for them.

  417. BOOGITY BOOGITY BOOGITY let’s go racin’ boys!

  418. Yeah, Guy, WTF was that?

    Two outs, in the 9th, 3-2 in a one-run game here’s the wind-up, and…

    Fucking auto racing? WTF is”F/X?”

    I blame Rupert Murdoch.

  419. (suspending my joe rule)

    That, joe, is America.

  420. The Obama Lemmings (like Joe) need to take a look at this:

    “12 reasons ‘bitter’ is bad for Obama by Mike Allen:

    1. It lets Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) off the mat at a time when even some of her top supporters had begun to despair about her prospects. Clinton hit back hard on the campaign trail Saturday. And her campaign held a conference call where former Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, a Pittsburgh native, described Obama’s remarks as “condescending and disappointing” and “undercutting his message of hope.”

    2. If you are going to say something that makes you sound like a clueless liberal, don’t say it in San Francisco. Obama’s views might have been received very differently if he had expressed them in public to Pennsylvania voters, saying he understood and could alleviate their frustrations.

    3. Some people actually use guns to hunt – not to compensate for a salary that’s less than a U.S. senator’s.

    4. Some people cling to religion not because they are bitter but because they believe it, and because faith in God gives them purpose and comfort.

    5. Some hard-working Americans find it insulting when rich elites explain away things dear to their hearts as desperation. It would be like a white politician telling blacks they cling to charismatic churches to compensate for their plight. And it vindicates centrist Democrats who have been arguing for a decade that their party has allowed itself to look culturally out of touch with the American mainstream.

    6. It provides a handy excuse for people who were looking for a reason not to vote for Obama but don’t want to think of themselves as bigoted. It hurts Obama especially with the former Reagan Democrats, the culturally conservative, blue-collar workers who could be a promising voter group for him. It also antagonizes people who were concerned about his minister but might have given him the benefit of the doubt after his eloquent speech on race.

    7. It gives the Clinton campaign new arguments for trying to recruit superdelegates, the Democratic elected officials and other insiders who get a vote on the nomination. A moderate politician from a swing district, for example, might not want to have to explain support for a candidate who is being hammered as a liberal. And Clinton’s agents can claim that for all the talk of her being divisive, Obama has provided plenty of fodder to energize Republicans.

    8. It helps Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) frame a potential race against Obama, even though both of them have found support among independents. Now Republicans have a simple, easily repeated line of attack to use against Obama as an out-of-touch snob, as they had with Sen. John F. Kerry after he blundered by commenting about military funding, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”

    9. The comments play directly into an already-established narrative about his candidacy. Clinton supporters have been arguing that Obama has limited appeal beyond upscale Democrats – the so-called latte liberals. You can’t win red states if people there don’t like you. “Elites need to understand that middle-class Americans view values and culture as more important than mere trickery,” said Paul Begala, a Clinton backer. “Democrats have to respect their values and reflect their values, not condescend to them as if they were children who’ve been bamboozled.”

    10. The timing is terrible. With the Pennsylvania primary nine days off, late-deciding voters are starting to tune in. Obama and Clinton are scheduled to appear separately on CNN on Sunday for a forum on, of all topics, faith and values. And ABC News is staging a Clinton-Obama debate in Philadelphia on Wednesday. So Clinton has the maximum opportunity to keep a spotlight on the issue. Besides sex, little drives the news and opinion industry more than race, religion, culture and class. So as far as chances the chattering-class will perpetuate the issue, Obama has hit the jackpot.

    11. The story did not have its roots in right-wing or conservative circles. It was published – and aggressively promoted – by The Huffington Post, a liberally oriented organization that was Obama’s outlet of choice when he wanted to release a personal statement distancing himself from some comments by the Rev. Wright.

    12. It undermines Democratic congressional candidates who had thought that Obama would make a stronger top for the ticket than Clinton. Already, Republican House candidates are challenging their Democratic opponents to renounce or embrace Obama’s remarks. Ken Spain, press secretary for the National Republican Congressional Committee, said: “There is a myth being perpetuated by Democrats and even some in the media that an Obama candidacy would somehow be better for their chances down ballot. But we don’t believe that is the case.”

    LOL Joe you’re guy is turning into a black Dukakis!

  421. The problem I have with the idea of a phased withdrawal is that it could easily mutate into a phased occupation beta version. “Well, the Iraqi governments hasn’t yet decided on what color the defense force cock rings should be. We need to stay another year until the cock ring color problem is sorted out.”

  422. “that private voluntary transactions tend to have much better outcomes than coerced government monopoly transactions”

    I happen to think that is a bunch of steaming bullcrap. Whatever the prior relations are, they are largely due to “coerced government monopoly transactions” (please let me know the time period when these were not numerous). And so we have a situation where person A has control of variable X, which is seen as important to life, and so person B is in a worse bragaining position relative to A. To the extent his position is worse, and to the extent that he or his family need X, he is not “free” and neither is his bargaining. This is the problem with libertarianism writ large I’m afraid.

  423. “There isn’t one of us here who doesn’t like NASCAR and who isn’t a fan.”

    From the Senator who keeps on giving. Of course, the full quote is a real gem. Just go to the link and scroll down. Still not as good as the Swisse cheesesteak affair . . .

  424. Some free assistance to Senator Obama’s campaign to get past this elitist reputation thing that seems to be clinging to him. Attend a few F1 events and hang out with the track owner in the skyboxes. Stay away from jacking up a car or changing a tire during an F1 or IRL race, if bowling is any indication of his “regular guy” skill.

  425. Ohnoes, Kneel, he’s doomed! DOOMED!

    The Jeremiah Wright issue was nothing – NOTHING – compared to making the observation that blue collar workers are unhappy with the government.

    Sigh. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. I guess I’d better get used to the idea of President Hillary.

  426. Try PRESIDENT MCCAIN, Joe!

  427. “The Jeremiah Wright issue was nothing – NOTHING – compared to making the observation that blue collar workers are unhappy with the government.”

    This breathes new life in to Wright Joe. We’re going to hear a LOT about that now LOL.

    Of course I’m just a “typical white person” what do I know right?

    Meanwhile, John McCain is measuring for drapes in the Oval Office.

  428. Kinda surprised that Senator McCain has not made a television appearance tonight at the Phoenix race.

  429. joe
    Obama is a bad choice, let’s face it. HRC is too. The Democrats are guilty, so very guilty of the Mondalization you speak of. Let’s admit it so we can get past the electoral defeat we face soon….I’m mad about it….As I said very early on, HRC and Obama were crazy, crazy choices. Those who thought they were good choices should prepare for McCain SCOTUS picks, cuz that is what they are gonna get….

  430. Only slightly better than the self-absorbed trolls like MK2 are the self-absorbed trolls like Neil who like to pretend they represent the voice of true red-blooded Americans “in the heartland.”

    You’re just a partisan hack, Neil. All you represent are other partisan hacks who shared your biases.

  431. Oh, OK. Just as long as this isn’t just throwing all sorts of crap at him and hoping it works, because his opponents can read polls and FEC reports.

    Good to know that this ties in perfectly with – in fact, is exactly the same issue as – Jeremiah Wright, “typical white person,” and, I assume, being a secret Muslim who doesn’t say the pledge of allegiance, and has a middle name derived from Arabic.

    See, I thought it was just nonsense. I didn’t realize it’s all just a piece of a big puzzle, man.

    I’m sure this means a great deal to people who call him B. Hussein Obama. But then, they haven’t exactly proven themselves to be masters of reading the public’s mood over the past couple of years.

  432. MNG, the polls, donation receipts, and relative primary turnouts would seem to suggest otherwise.

  433. Maybe Senator Clinton could voice her appreciation for all of the extra safety features and the switch to alternative fuel that NASCAR implimented in the past 2 years? Perhaps an appearance with Jeff Gordon or something?

  434. Neil, you are the kind of worthless braindead fundie dickswinging nationalist Archie Bunker fuck who actually very nearly justifies elitism.

    The average American is such moronic trash, whose tastes and general habits of being get more heinous by the day. If we can’t find a way to reinvigorate the Constitution to hamstring your ability to stupidify the country using “democracy”, then we really need to get a nice oligarchy going.

    I hate statists of all stripes, but if we have to be ruled by statists, getting the shaft from George Soros is vastly preferable to getting it from Pat Robertson. At least being dominated by billionaire world citizens and Harvard elites leaves us some dignity. Being dominated by morons who think that cavemen rode dinosaurs like horses and who drive around in shitty American luxury cars with yellow ribbon magnets on them leaves us no dignity at all.

    By the way, Nascar sucks, everyone who likes Nascar is a fucking pinhead, and any politician who pretends to like Nascar to curry favor with pinheads should be guillotined.

  435. I’m worried Neil’s insidious reverse psychology will provoke me into voting for Sen. Obama. I presume that *is* his strategy.

  436. Fortunately, I Hate Neil’s counter-campaign of reverse psychology cancels out my pro-Obama instincts.


  437. I’m sure this means a great deal to people who call him B. Hussein Obama. But then, they haven’t exactly proven themselves to be masters of reading the public’s mood over the past couple of years.”

    LOL Joe, yeah thats why Republicans have won five of the seven past Presidential elections. Its because we aren’t good at figuring out the public’s mood! The only guy you managed to get elected managed to do it by 1) having the spolier Ross Perot and 2) acting like a Republican on many issues. I mean, he ran on school uniforms and putting drug dealers in jail!

    Face it Joe, the ’60s are over and you lost. Kennedy and Johnson aren’t coming back. This is a conservative nation now and will be for quite some time. You’re hippie fantassees aren’t going to come true.

  438. “At least being dominated by billionaire world citizens and Harvard elites leaves us some dignity.”

    Really? Compulsory sensitivity training isn’t a very sexy form of domination.

    Like P. J. O’Rourke said, conservatives may be Nazis, but who wants to fantasize about being tied to the bed and raped by someone dressed like a liberal?

  439. Wow, I never knew that elitist rage could create such trouble with acronyms, like the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR).

    Is drag racing okay if you think it has something to do with guys in dresses?

  440. “This is a conservative nation now and will be for quite some time.”

    Oh, what a relief, I was worried that me might have a government that did liberal stuff like adopt huge new entitlement programs, run up massive deficits, wage Wilsonian crusades for democracy, ration free expression in the name of “campaign finance reform,” and proclaim that *Roe v. Wade* is “part of the laws of the land” (as John Ashcroft said in his recent memoirs).

  441. Between the day he gave the “A More Perfect Union” speech to today, Obama has narrowed Hillary Clinton’s lead in Pennsylvania from about 17 points to about 7 in the Real Clear Politics average. I’d say that’s been a pretty controversy-free period of the campaign, wouldn’t you? Certainly not one in which the Clinton campaign and the Republicans have made any arguments about his words and actions being insulting to white, working class voters.

    The elitist assumption that the American public can readily be stampeded in the face of thoughtful and respectful appeals to their fairness has taken a real beating over the past month, but it remains the bedrock principle of the Republican Party’s electoral strategy.

    The reason John McCain still has an outside chance of winning this election isn’t because of this faulty strategy, but because McCain himself has rejected it, and is showing every sign of running his own thoughtful campaign of treating the American public like adults who can pay attention for longer than a Karl Rove sound bite.

    But what do I know? I was saying three weeks ago that he’d put the Wright controversy behind him and was going to come out with even more of a lead. And, I mean, look at what the polls have done since then!

  442. Bottom line, Neil, you can quit holding the football and promising conservatives that you really really won’t pull it away this time.

    You Republican sack of shit.

  443. Gosh, that last post of mine certainly sounded angry and uncharitable.

    Oh, well.

  444. Like P. J. O’Rourke said, conservatives may be Nazis, but who wants to fantasize about being tied to the bed and raped by someone dressed like a liberal?

    We also proved this in the “Nazi-themed orgy vs Communist-themed orgy” thread.

  445. Yeah Joe he has a real lead! Hes tied in New York with McCain, and we all know New York is a hardcore conservative red state LOL.

    Conservatives have a great narrative on Obama now. Hes an out of touch, globalist, costal big city machine race-pimping elite who looks down on Americans in the heartland!

    Whats the liberal Democrat narrative on McCain Joe?

  446. I think you should write LOL a few more times, Neil. That forced laughter thing really does a good job covering up illogic.

    BTW, speaking of speculation about how a faux-controversy is going to kill the Obama campaign, have you met TallDave?

    I think you two would really hit it off. You have a lot in common.

    For example, he’d probably find the description of Democrats as both Lyndon Johnson fanatics AND hippies to be really clever, too.

    No, seriously, the political mood of the country is exactly what is was in the 1980s and 90s. Exactly. You totally don’t have to update your playbook or anything. Fighting the last war? What on earth does that mean?

  447. Enjoyed the Beckerman link from 5:25.
    Ayn_Randian is a fuckin real american hero.

  448. Being dominated by morons who think that cavemen rode dinosaurs like horses and who drive around in shitty American luxury cars with yellow ribbon magnets on them leaves us no dignity at all.

    The “above” don’t want to dominate us anywhere near to the extent the “others” do. They don’t think “we” are stupid either.

    Most fundies weren’t involved in politics until politics started messing with them.

  449. Perhaps Rev. wright can give the pre-race prayer at the Talledaga race and Senator Obama can tell the drivers to start their engines?

    Note: “ridin’ dirty” should be saved for a motocross event, don’t waste that one at a car race.

  450. But you sure ‘Doug’ wasn’t Guy Montag

  451. [question mark]

  452. This is hilarious watching conservatives ties themselves in knots trying to prove that Obama hates “small-town voters” or is an “elitist.” Obama’s getting elected – face it. The fear from the Right is palpable at this point. Why libertarians are so up in arms I’m not sure – Obama is not the second coming of Mondale.

  453. Typo on “Rev. Wright” was unintentional.

  454. Obama’s getting elected – face it.

    {vanya sometime in November}
    The election must be rigged! why everyone I know voted for Obama!

  455. Conservatives have a great narrative on Obama now. Hes an out of touch, globalist, costal big city machine race-pimping elite who looks down on Americans in the heartland!.

    Aw, whattamatter, Neil? “Crypto-Muslim anti-American foreign type,” and “Black Radical honkey-hater” didn’t work out for you, so you had to work up a new one?

    I’m sure that “narrative” will hold up just as well as the others. Right up until Barack Obama opens is mouth.

    The Democratic narrative on McCain isn’t nearly as sexy as all of those, I must admit. “Grouchy old warmonger demonstrating the irrational rage and mental lapses common to senility” doesn’t generate quite as much heat – but it has the virtue of being true, and thus difficult to dispel.

  456. Joe I bet you thought that idiot, human toothache John Kerry was going to win too huh? Yeah, he worked out real well.

    Face it the country doesn’t want to elect a Ted Kennedy/John Kerry/Howard Dean liberal Democrat.

    They want a maverick Conservative like John McCain

    Hows that feel, Joe?

    Vanya Allahamba O’Govern isn’t going anywhere! He will maybe win five liberal elitist states (Massachusettes, Vermont, California, Maryland, Hawaii, + DC) even Ed Randell says he can’t win in PA or the other sates of the Heartland!

    Ed Randell is on right now (whos a liberal Democrat) talking about how wrong Obama was LOL.

    Hows that feel Joe and Vanya?

  457. Kolohe,

    Let me say this much for the totalatarian socialists:

    The Communists had hot sluts like Kollontai, plus cool crazy chicks like Bernadine Dorhn, Patti Hearst and Angela Davis.

    The National Socialists had Ilse Koch and Eva Braun.

    Who do the liberals have? Margaret Sanger, Eleanore Roosevelt, Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton. Names which don’t exactly reek of babeliciousness.

  458. But you sure ‘Doug’ wasn’t Guy Montag

    I am positive that I have never posted anyplace as ‘Doug’, ever.

  459. Four hundred fifty posts about stupid politics, and no Prog? We’ll fix that. Spooky Tooth

  460. Obama has about a 0.1% chance of getting elected. I could list all the negatives he has, but that would take a couple hours. Just today I heard (unverified) that he helped organize the MillionManMarch (maybe even from this thread).

    The only people supporting BHO at this point are those “liberals” who are as delusional as most libertarians, and BHO “supporters” who are actually McCain supporters.

    Here’s my video about just the latest incident. Believe me, there are many things that haven’t yet been covered, and BHO is going to keep saying stupid things until most people realize how far-left he is and he decides to go write a book or something.

  461. Does anyone remember what Hillary Clinton said for two weeks after the Wright video surfaced about the matter?

    Nothing.

    That is what you do when your opponent is in serious trouble because of a story; you keep your mouth shut, and let the press eat him alive. That’s what the Dukakis and Gephardt campaigns did when the Donna Rice story broke.

    It was only two weeks after the Wright story broke, when Obama’s poll numbers has recovered and he was clearly trending back up, that she made the famous statement to Richard Mellon Scaife.

  462. Now isn’t that just perfect– all three of them, Dondero, Wacko, and Neil have left their mark on this thread.


  463. The National Socialists had Ilse Koch and Eva Braun.

    not to mention Leni Riefenstahl, Hannah Reitsch, and in a post-war iconographic way, Dyanne Thorne

  464. Even the liberal Democrat media is all over this, Joe!

    Hes going to really hurt in Pennsylvania, watch him sink 10-15 points before this is over.

    This means Clinton goes to the Convention! Hello, 1968!

    This is just toooooooooo perfect for maverick McCain.

  465. Joe I bet you thought that idiot, human toothache John Kerry was going to win too huh?

    Actually, I spent the entire summer and fall saying that the race was too close to call, and refuting Republicans who assured me that is was going to be a blowout. I actually wrote that a lot, so you shouldn’t have any trouble finding it in the archives.

    You “know” a lot of things you don’t actually know, Neil.

    Face it the country doesn’t want to elect a Ted Kennedy/John Kerry/Howard Dean liberal Democrat.

    They want a maverick Conservative like John McCain Oh, sure. Hence. November 2006.

    Hows that feel, Joe? Like I’m the Roadrunner, you’re the Coyote, and you haven’t noticed yet that I’m standing on a cliff and you’re in mid-air. Meep meep.

    The only people supporting BHO at this point are those “liberals” who are as delusional as most libertarians, and BHO “supporters” who are actually McCain supporters.

    Really? He’s beating McCain on both the Gallup Daily Tracker and the RCP average. But, no, you should totally go with your gut. Who needs evidence, after all?

  466. Update from the Heartland!

    Just today I heard (unverified) that Lonewacko, Dondero, and Neil are all illegal aliens who came to America to destroy our blogs with their PointlessDrivel LOL.

  467. . . . BHO is going to keep saying stupid things until most people realize how far-left he is and he decides to go write a book or something.

    Shush! Don’t shut the man up! Let him express himself freely.

    Maybe he could do a good-will visit to a foreign leader in the Middle East with President Carter, or maybe he and Mrs. Obama could visit Cuba so he could get that dialog going with them right after the convention.

  468. Neil | April 12, 2008, 10:47pm | #

    Even the liberal Democrat media is all over this, Joe!

    Hes going to really hurt in Pennsylvania, watch him sink 10-15 points before this is over.

    This means Clinton goes to the Convention! Hello, 1968!

    This is just toooooooooo perfect for maverick McCain.

    That’s odd. A comment from mid-March, immediately after the Jeremiah Wright video hit the news, just now showed up on a thread, with tonight’s time stamp.

    I think Welch has been dosing the server squirrels.

  469. I’ll always have *lebensraum* for Dyanne Thorne.

    Incidentally, I seem to have found a way to get away with Godwin violations – dirty jokes! I shall bear this in mind.

  470. “Hes going to really hurt in Pennsylvania, watch him sink 10-15 points before this is over.”

    I wonder if Neil will be around H&R after the PA primary to field comments and questions regarding this particular prediction.

  471. Whats more Joe, not only does this play perfectly into the Wright narrative but word is he walked in the million man march!

    His farrakahn connection isn’t going to help him with the Jewish vote in Florida and New York Joe.

    You thought Wright was over? No, its coming up again like Pat Buchannan said. This only helps it!

    McCain’s got to be laughing tonight!

  472. “I wonder if Neil will be around H&R after the PA primary to field comments and questions regarding this particular prediction.”

    I will Sparky and I will be in November when America elects a maverick Conservative war hero, John McCain.

    The Democrat Party never wins elections on the national, Presidential level.

  473. Neil- I think McCain will win it easily.

  474. Please! Senator Obama is going to clean up in PA, you just watch. Mrs. Obama is saving her mad welding skillz for just the right moment and the Senator will show off his tractor pulling talents.

    Just because he has not revealed switching to Skoal from smokes and you have not seen him in coveralls yet does not mean a thing.

  475. And if anyone still gives a shit re: union membership.

    In 2007, the number of workers belonging to a union rose by 311,000 to 15.7 million, the U.S. Department of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Union members accounted for 12.1 percent of employed wage and salary workers, essentially unchanged from 12.0 percent in 2006. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent.

    Workers in the public sector had a union membership rate nearly five times that of private sector employees.

    Among demographic groups, the union membership rate was highest for black men and lowest for Hispanic women.

    Wage and salary workers ages 45 to 54 (15.7 percent) and ages 55 to 64 (16.1 percent) were more likely to be union members than were workers ages 16 to 24 (4.8 percent).

    And based on table 3

    Year // Priv # of mem(% of workforce) // Pub # of Mem (% of workforce)

    2006 // 7.98 mil (7.4%) // 7.38 mil (36.2%)

    2007 // 8.11 mil (7.5%) // 7.56 mil (35.9%)

    So, it looks like last year the private sector added more union jobs as well as the percentage of the force unionized. In contrast, the public sector also added union jobs, but a lot more non-union jobs (with the biggest decrease in % unionized at the fed level.)

    Next year, though, is going to see a whole lot local govt jobs go away, (40+ % unionized, as well as the biggest chunk of all public sector jobs -over half), as prop taxes dry up from the housing bust.

  476. The difference between Senator McCain and Senator Kerry is that Kerry did not have to be held captive as a POW to become a Socialist.

  477. Guy-
    Read the Playboy link (sfw) at 5:25. That guy Doug is right up your alley.

  478. I wonder if Neil will be around H&R after the PA primary to field comments and questions regarding this particular prediction.

    TallDave is still around and commenting, and doesn’t seem to have learned any humility from his utterly-hilarious record of declaring that the Wright story was the end of Obama.

    But you see, Sparky, these people aren’t saying these things in an effort to describe reality, but to shape it. They are concern trolls. They understand, like Limbaugh, that an Obama nomination would be absolutely devastating for their beloved party, up and down the ticket, and are putting out these arguments in an effort to keep that from happening.

  479. Face it Joe, the ’60s are over and you lost. Kennedy and Johnson aren’t coming back. This is a conservative nation now and will be for quite some time. You’re hippie fantassees aren’t going to come true.

    Fact is, you got your clocks cleaned in ’06, and the only reason you still have a chance in November is because Pelosi refused to do the right thing and impeach the son of a bitch, after which put him up on the dock in Nuremberg where he would have rightfully suffered the same fate as the Nazi’s who started a war of aggression against a Nation that was not a threat to them.

    Yes, your Bush is that big of a world class dickhead and I am ashamed to say I voted for him in 2000.

  480. “a maverick Conservative war hero, John McCain.”

    The only word in that sentence which might be accurate is the word “a.” And I’m not so sure about that word.

    Unless “maverick” means “awarding special guild privileges to the mainstream media by exempting them from unconsitutional ‘campaign finance’ laws.”

    Or unless “Conservative” means “borrow and borrow, spend and spend, elect and elect.”

    Heroism in war tends to involve killing the enemy or saving your friends, not getting shot down over enemy territory. Of course he showed great resilience when he was tortured by the Commies, which is truly admirable, but I’m not sure if heroism is the concept we’re dealing with here.

  481. Kennedy and Johnson aren’t coming back…You’re hippie fantassees aren’t going to come true.

    I just wanted to highlight this bit, because we’re clearly dealing with an educated, insightful, and formidable political mind here.

  482. joe, the general gist is that the UAW is what caused Ford and GM’s problems in the first place.

    To be fair, the self-absorbed idiocy of Big Three management, which led them to sign those union contracts, is what caused the problems. We’re talking about guys who couldn’t see past the hood ornament.

  483. and in a post-war iconographic way, Dyanne Thorne

    And for us gen x’ers; Dr. Elsa Schneider (although in real life she’s really Irish – which is even better!)

  484. “TallDave is still around and commenting…”

    Yeah, that’s a good point; partisan hacks tend to forget their predictions almost as fast as they can be proven wrong.

  485. “Dr. Elsa Schneider”

    That actress’s last name is Doody. Heh heh.

  486. To be fair unless George Romero gets an MSNBC gig, I don’t think JFK nor LBJ will get back into politics either.

  487. “They understand, like Limbaugh, that an Obama nomination would be absolutely devastating for their beloved party, up and down the ticket, and are putting out these arguments in an effort to keep that from happening.”

    Joe you’re the gift that keeps on giving! PLEASE nominate Obama. Conservatives are actually scared of Clinton, given the fact the only Democrat to be elected since 1980 was a Clinton. But Obama? LOL hes like Dukakis and McGovern and Kerry! He’d be a complete disaster for you’re party. No way white working class rural Reagan Democrat voters will vote for that out of touch globalist elitist from an atheist/muslim/Comsymp background.

    The attack ads almost write themselves!

  488. TallDave is still around and commenting, and doesn’t seem to have learned any humility from his utterly-hilarious record of declaring that the Wright story was the end of Obama.

    LOL I see joe is still around making crap up to make himself feel better. Of course all I ever said was that it hurt him, but that’s another fine strawman you’ve beaten down. Tell us again how the Wright story helps Obama, which you very hilariously actually did assert.

    Anyways, I’m feeling bitter. Where’s my gun and Bible?

  489. Yeah, that’s a good point; partisan hacks tend to forget their predictions almost as fast as they can be proven wrong.

    Oh, how true that is.

  490. Kolohe,

    Yea, right, that is so much like the way I roll. Don’t even have to go to that link, just look at what I write here. Identical. Amazing that you had any doubt that I could be a different person from Doug.

  491. Hey Joe! Let me guess? You’re from San Francisco or Manhattan right?

    Almost too easy to guess you’re location!

  492. So, Neil, do you think it’s geography or genetics that makes people in the midwest incapable of rational thought?

    An excellent question that Obama is sure to hear many times in the days and weeks ahead.

    Hey, look on the bright side, joe — no one is talking about Wright anymore! Well, until his NAACP appearance, anyway. That should breathe some new life into that story. Something for you to look forward to, since the whole “God DAMN the U.S. of KKK” story helps Obama so much.

  493. OK, concern troll. We will.

    Conservatives are actually scared of Clinton

    Truly, a formidable political mind, with a keen insight into the American political scene.

    Oh, and Kneel? “You’re”is a contraction of “you are.” The word you want is “your.”

    I don’t usually correct something like that, as it’s a pretty common typo, but you’re (see that?) doing it consistently enough that I’m not sure it’s actually a typo.

    LOL hes like Dukakis and McGovern and Kerry! Yes, exactly, remember the massive gains in Democratic voter registrations during the Dukakis campaign, and the way McGovern and Kerry attracted so many independents and Republicans during their primary campaigns?

    It isn’t 2002 anymore, Neil, and Barack Obama isn’t John Kerry. The fact that you can conceive of a political attack against a Democrat doesn’t mean the public will be swayed by it; and the fact that you can put out that attack doesn’t mean Barack Obama is going to run away and duck it.

    Did you notice that, as Obama addresses this controversy, he’s making a point of using the word “bitter,” instead of weaseling away from it? This strategy of declaring something a Democrat says to be beyond the pale, waiting until he runs away from it, and then routing him because he doesn’t have any ground to stand on, only works if the Democrat plays along. He’s not, but you people still keep trying the same tactic.

    Life moves fast, Neil. You’re fighting the last war, and you’re getting left behind.

  494. Hey Joe! Let me guess? You’re from San Francisco or Manhattan right?

    Almost too easy to guess you’re location!

    Wrong on both guesses, dumbass. Lowell, MA, like the late, great Paul Tsongas.

  495. Guy-
    I was just talking about the (female) (Democratic) ass-fucking.

  496. I think TallDave is Neil.

    Not a word on the entire thread – a thread about how Barack Obama is so totally dead – until he’s mentioned, and then he immediately replies?

    Why would I need to make myself feel better? I’ve been proven right, you’ve been proven wrong, and Barack Obama has overtaken both McCain and Clinton since you declared his candidacy over.

  497. “The attack ads almost write themselves!”

    And what kind of ads would arise from such a parthenogenetic process?

    Let me try and guess:

    VOICEOVER: “While America sleeps, the insidious forces of Islamofascistmeanieism are stealthily crawling closer and closer. And what is Sheikh Barack Hussein Abu Jamal ibn Saud al Mahdi Obama doing about it? He’s eating brie cheese and granola with his elitist buddies, puffing on a doobie and making fun of good heartland Americans like you.”

    [An actor who looks like Obama – holding a glass of Chardonnay in one hand and a marijuana cigarette in the other – speaks into the camera]

    ACTOR: “I just *hate* America, and right now I’m eating a small puppy I killed yesterday. [takes a bite of roast dog.] Mmm . . . tastes like chicken! Now I will go and have sex with your blonde white daughter.”

    VOICEOVER: “So vote for the Republican candidate, I forget his name, and does it really matter? Vote Republican!”

  498. Hey Neil! Let me guess – your parents are siblings or first cousins right?

  499. HIs parents were hippies who really dug Lyndon Johnson.

    So, score one for the “Nature” side of the debate.

  500. I don’t care what anyone else thinks

    Mad Max has just won Hit & Run with his 11:31 pm post.

  501. That U.S. Army sponsored #8 car is closing in on the National Guard #88 car pretty good. But still over 60 laps left, anything could happen.

  502. That U.S. Army sponsored #8 car is closing in on the National Guard #88 car pretty good. But still over 60 laps left, anything could happen.

    Is there an OBL-sponsored car in there? Just curious.

  503. Tell us again how the Wright story helps Obama, which you very hilariously actually did assert.

    I suppose I could, but a picture really is worth a thousand words.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx

    See the trough in mid-March? See the highest scores of the entire campaign, coming over the past two weeks? See how Obama fell behind McCane BEFORE the Wright story broke, and is now ahead?

  504. So much for that, Jr, in the #88 car is pulling away.

  505. LOL joe, your paranoid delusions are eclipsed only by your lack of reading comprehension. Obviously I never said Obama’s candidacy was dead. Much much too early for that.

    What’s really funny is that this large gaffe actually obscured two other Obama gaffes, one in which he referred to Iran as Iraq and another in which he said Al Qaeda was not in Iraq. He’s going to make McCain look like Daniel Webster at this rate.

  506. Alright. I was born in the early ’80s, I drive a Volkswagen, I live in a suburb of a medium-sized but solidly southern city, I drink Yuengling beer (or the local Legend Beer if I feel rich that week), I haven’t been to church since I was 18, I’m bi-racial latino/white, fiscally conservative but socially very liberal.

    So, where do I fit in in the kulturkampf?

  507. yeah, got to give Max the kudos on that one.

    About the so called controversy, or what I will call the big Limboidian drama over nothing. What does it reveal about Obama? At the very worst, he may be aloof. That’s right, the worst you can say about Obama in this matter is, he is aloof . Big fucking hairy ass deal.

    You Limboids are silly drama queens.

  508. Is there an OBL-sponsored car in there? Just curious.

    Not that I have seen. No DNC either, but Jeff Gordon is driving the Nicorette car today instead of the flaiming Dupont “Rainbow Warrior” car.

  509. “I was born in the early ’80s, I drive a Volkswagen, I live in a suburb of a medium-sized but solidly southern city, I drink Yuengling beer (or the local Legend Beer if I feel rich that week), I haven’t been to church since I was 18, I’m bi-racial latino/white, fiscally conservative but socially very liberal.”

    What are you wearing?

  510. I drink Yuengling beer (or the local Legend Beer if I feel rich that week), I haven’t been to church since I was 18, I’m bi-racial latino/white, fiscally conservative but socially very liberal.

    Yuengling beer and latino/white, except for the time line we are practically brothers. Well, my brother has the misfortune of looking
    like a drug lord that died in a hail of gunfire a decade ago, whereas I favor Charlie Sheen.

  511. Sparky, if you want to know that, I’m afraid you’re going to have to give me your credit card number.

  512. Too rich for my blood…. πŸ™‚

  513. Dupont “Rainbow Warrior” car.

    Why, how is it painted that Dupont car? I googled “Rainbow Warrior” only to find a story on Greenpeace’s boat, so I take it you are making fun of Dupont, I assume, because they’re green (another assumption)?

  514. And the Army car takes the lead!

  515. LOL joe really is still arguing Wright helps Obama!

    You can’t write anything this funny, no one would believe it.

  516. Is there an OBL-sponsored car in there? Just curious.

    Some argue that the sponsorship goes the other way. πŸ™‚

  517. my brother has the misfortune of looking
    like a drug lord that died in a hail of gunfire a decade ago, whereas I favor Charlie Sheen.

    Ha! I pass pretty easily for a white guy. My sister on the other hand looks like shes straight from Mexico City. Genes are funny things.

  518. Hey, wait a second, how can the Army sponsor a racing car? I mean, the recruiting TV ads are understandable. Would the car sponsorship be for recruiting, too? Hmmm.

  519. Some argue that the sponsorship goes the other way. πŸ™‚

    Someone on these blogs here has once claimed that Maher is libertarian. Whoever it was, idiot!

  520. Hey, wait a second, how can the Army sponsor a racing car? I mean, the recruiting TV ads are understandable. Would the car sponsorship be for recruiting, too? Hmmm.

    I think that is the budget allocation it comes from.

    The Army sponsores cars in NASCAR, NHRA, had a bike built by Orange County Choppers and a few other things. If I remember I will take note of all in the display at the apex of corr. 3 & 4 in the Pentagon on Monday.

    All branches of the services sponsor racing of some kind, the National Guard does a lot and the Army Reserve is not as frequent, IIRC.

  521. I’d walk it back too, TallDave.

    This forced laughter and stunned silence routine is exactly what you were doing throughout late March and early April, when I told you that the Wright story was not going to break Obama’s campaign, and that the speech he gave had actually won the primary for him.

    Oh my God, joe, you’re so hilarious, joe, I can’t believe how funny and deluded you are, joe.

    So, keep laughing.

    Anyway, the Obama gaffes.

    1. Nobody give a shit if you say Iraq when you mean Iran, or vice versa, if it is just a slip of the tongue and not a an actual confusion over which country is which. Everybody does that. If you actually make a mistake in your explanation of which country is doing what or having what done to it, that’s a problem, but that’s not what happened here.

    2. That’s not a gaffe, it’s one of the sides of one of the major issues that will decide the election. It’s actually the more popular side right now, by a large amount, and has been for quite some time. So, we’ll see how that goes, won’t we?

  522. People don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. They take refuge in their faith and their community, and their family, and the things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington.

    What’s really interesting about this little piece of class bigotry is the implicit assumption that people want economic help from Washington.

    Of course, the argument that people want their guns and Bibles and tarditional definitions of marriage because Washington isn’t giving them more socialism is simply bizarre; people want those things because they value them, not via sublimated anger at not getting a bigger handout from Uncle Sam. The implication that the only reason people don’t vote for socialism is that they don’t trust they will get it, rather than that they just don’t particularly want it, shows the campaign’s fundamental inability to understand the values of the rural poor.

  523. Guy- Thanks. Hmmm, interesting. I never thought about that. Now that I think about it, I recall seeing such cars. Its just that I never thought about it.

  524. Shorter Neil:

    This fellow here over here, with the yellow shirt, Macaca or whatever his name is, hes following us around everywhere. And its just great! We’re going to places all over Virginia! And hes having it on film, and its great to have you here, and would you show it to your opponent? Because hes never been there and probably will never come, so its good for you to see what its like out here, in the real world! Rather than living inside the beltway or being with a bunch of Hollywood movie moguls.

    So lets give a welcome to Macaca here–Welcome to America, and the Real World of Virginia!

    Yeah Kneel, that worked beautifully.

  525. genes are funny things, ask my blonde sister!

    Anyways this is my pappy’s background, the Isle?os:

    http://www.canaryislanders.org/

    Some French and Mexican in that mix as well.

  526. #48, Jimmie Johnson wins. He has one of the coolest crew chiefs in all of sports, Chad Knaus.

  527. Would the car sponsorship be for recruiting, too?

    Yep, and it’s not their only one.

    the navy has some to for the same purpose.

    Ditto air force and nat guard and I think the Marines as well.

  528. stupid gis delay.

  529. hmmm… I should watch some more Nascar I guess. I guess watching cars go round and round isn’t all that exciting.

  530. Johnson/Knaus cut the fuel so close that they could do a short burnout, but not enough to do the “Polish victory lap”.

  531. I’d walk it back too, TallDave.

    LOL Clearly you have no idea when to walk it back. Of course, I don’t have to walk anything back, since all I’ve ever said is that it would hurt him, but you go ahead and attribute to me whatever lets pat yourself on the back. I get to laugh, you feel better, we all win.

    And of course Obama had won the primary long before his speech.

    Oh my God, joe, you’re so hilarious, joe, I can’t believe how funny and deluded you are, joe.

    Yep, that about sums it up.

    2

    ZOMG are you now going to dispute whether AQ is in Iraq, and claim that’s an election issue? LOL And you think I have to force laughter?

    Of course, even Obama himself immediately recognized it as a gaffe and stopped as he was saying “Iraq.” It’s funny, you can see the oh-shit expression on his face as he thinks “omg wtf did i just say?!?!” then stutters a bit and changes it to “leadership.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_gJpP8TNBQ

  532. Joe, you really think Obama can still win? Hes alienated half the voters in this country with his race-hustling comsymp wife and his atheist/muslim background, not to mention his bone-heade condescending statements. Hes just another liberal Democrat Party costal elite.

    LOL the Democrat Party is sooooooooo stupid. They cou’ldve won this thing but its like Charlie Brown trying to hit the football! They manage to miss it every time LOL!

  533. If Senator Obama gets the Dixie Chicks for his tour band that might help him some.

  534. “Hicks nix clique’s shticks”

    “Leave it to Obama to make John Kerry’s Brahmin hauteur seem earnestly goofy in retrospect.”

    lawlz

    Tomorrow morning should be fun.

  535. So a politician thinks the reason people don’t vote for him is because they are deluded, bitter, deceived by oil baron propaganda, outspent by a 1.01:1.00 ratio, or just plain mentally ill. Obama isn’t really breaking new ground here…

    This thread is also another reminder that pro-war people are out of their fucking minds.

  536. Another missed opportunity πŸ™

    There is a rerun of the Art Bell show on right now, talking about alternative energy. I hear this show is pretty popular in rural areas. Too bad Sen. Obama can’t call in and really show his stuff.

  537. For those who can’t see the video, Frank J has obtained this transcript:

    “Our biggest threat is Al Qaeda,” Barack Obama told a crowd of supporters. “We need to go after them, and Al Qaeda is not in Ir-… wait… um… that’s not right… uh… the key Al Qaeda leadership is not in Iraq. That’s the ticket! So, no reason for us to be in Iraq.”

    “But if we leave Iraq, won’t the leadership set up base there?” a supporter asked.

    “No… um… because… of the… uh… the violent Shiites there who will kill all of them.”

    “Then don’t we have to worry about the Shiites?” another person in the audience asked.

    “No… because… um… they’ll all eventually be… um… eaten by the sandworms. So, if we leave Iraq, everything will solve itself. There’s no reason for us to be there losing money and lives over spice… um… I mean oil.”

    “Do you actually know anything about foreign affairs?” someone else asked.

    “Well… um… I read the paper every day.”

    “Articles or the comics?”

    Obama thought about that. “What do the classifieds count as?”

  538. Well, the good news to this is that whether Obama or McCain is in the White House, the Social Conservatives and the movement types will be out of power.

    Oh, do you think McCain will need to curry favor with the Cons? Not likely. He will make centrist alliances and ignore the Cons who have given him hell all of these years.

    Sure, he will curry favor now, but once he gets in office, expect the legislation that he backs to have the sponsorship names of Feinstein, Snowe, Kerry, or Reid. McCain wants to be known as an effective leader and may only have four years to pull it off.

    His cabinet will consist of many Democrats and many moderate Republicans, expect a few Richard Darman types running the budget and treasury. As for Supreme Court nominations, a centrist-left coalition in the Senate will dominate because McCain thinks the current court lacks balance. Expect a Souter and an O’Connor to emerge.

    Yep, you Cons are set to do well this election cycle, put all your stock and energy into getting McCain elected and in return you will end up with about as much relevancy to Washington as we libertarians have.

  539. $ egrep “>Guy Montag *” 125957.html | wc -l
    63

    $ egrep “>joe *” 125957.html | wc -l
    74

  540. If Senator Obama gets the Dixie Chicks for his tour band that might help him some.

    If Obama wins, I would almost bet the farm that McCartney and Wonder will partner to do Ebony&Ivory.

  541. My predictions for a McCain Presidency, given that Democrats will control a healthy majority in both houses:

    Some form of RomneyCare on the federal level

    Immigration “amnesty” (or whatever the Lonewacko Krewe says is amnesty)

    Squishy centrist judicial nominees (think of Souter)

    Further campaign finance “reform”

    Repeal of the Bush tax cuts

    Free trade after he twists some arms

    A blank check for his foreign policy agenda.

    Yeah, I can hardly wait.

  542. Market fundamentalism involves the unwarranted belief that the free market left to function on its own will produce the best of all possible worlds. The fundamentalists who blieve this nonsense have never lived in an unregulated free market, and neither has anybody else. Their beliefs have as much basis in reality and evidence as the belief that Jesus died for our sins. Unlike Christian fundamentalists, free market fundamentalists delude themselves that they’re relying on something other than faith, but they can’t delude anybody with an ounce of sense, which explains their utter political marginality.

  543. Sure, he will curry favor now, but once he gets in office, expect the legislation that he backs to have the sponsorship names of Feinstein, Snowe, Kerry, or Reid.

    No matter who gets elected, it would be great to see a bipartisan consensus on withdrawing our troops from the one war we really can’t ever win, and on which we’ve thrown away by far the most resources and lives.

  544. “…belief that the free market left to function on its own will produce the best of all possible worlds”

    The fact that you used the phrase “the best of all possible worlds” is all the evidence any informed, intellectually honest person needs to know that you’re nothing more than a troll. You may recognize this as a misrepresentative caricature of libertarian views but spout it anyway to score cheap rhetorical points with the ignorant; or you may be so ideologically blinded that you really think it’s accurate. Either way, it’s clear that you’re a waste of time.

    “…they can’t delude anybody with an ounce of sense…”

    More unintentionally ironic words were never spoken.

  545. Sparky,

    mk2 thinks we libertarians are irrelevant losers, so, even if you take his logic as a given, he must be an even bigger loser to waste time trolling in our irrelevant, loser forums.

    Don’t bother to even read him, I don’t, except for that nifty tune he wrote up above. He is like that ball of energy in the episode of Star Trek that feeds on hate. Ignore him and he will shrivel up and die.

  546. Urkobold? IS CONFUSED. IS Neil THE RETARDED VERSION OF TallDave OR IS TallDave THE RETARDED Neil?

    PLEASE EXPLAIN.

  547. alan,

    You’re right, of course, but I still respond more than I should. I’ve read a few people speculating about the psychology of trolls; I think the psychology of troll-engagers is also interesting and kind of disturbing. MK2 clearly isn’t worth the attention on his own, but I still respond because others reading might believe him, or I don’t like to see my views caricatured so dishonestly, or I like feeling like an internet tuff guy when the targets are so easy…? The implications aren’t pretty for the troll or the troll-engager….

  548. Urkobold, my theory, which I very recently extracted from my ass, is that Neil, TallDave, Lonewacko, MK2, Dondero, and several others are all manifestations of this Star Trek ball of energy alan mentioned.

    I’m still not sure how I’m going to fit this emanation into my own personal cosmology. And for that matter I don’t really know where Urkobold fits in either. So could you give me some sort of sign, preferably involving some high-end bourbon?

  549. MY CREW LIKES Booker’s. IS THAT OK?

  550. If you’re truly a powerful being you’ll bring Pappy van Winkle; but Booker’s will definitely do in a pinch.

    Are you there, Urkobold? It’s me, Margaret. And I want some quality bourbon, dammit. Booker me.

  551. I know what you mean. In another mood, I would likely do the same, as there is an audience to this forum who may find it helpful that the caricatures of libertarianism are addressed when they find themselves in a position of having to explain themselves. More than any other creed, libertarians are expected to explain themselves.

    The troll mentality, particularly of the left bent, interest me as well. I’ve literally been hissed at when I have told leftist that I am a libertarian. There is a subcategory of them that view us as an existential threat in the manner that they don’t feel as threatened by SoCons, Neocons, and movement Cons which is strange since they actually do wield political power, and we do not.

    Strange and interesting. A smart liberal (and there are plenty of them) will notice that there exist a deep schism between philosophical libertarians and the Republican establishment.

    He will put the differences he has with us aside in order to build a coalition built on the mutual interest of both policy, ending the war in Iraq, safe guarding civil rights and civil liberties, and the political advantage that though his candidate may only draw a fraction of the libertarian vote, libertarians do have the ability to throw roughly eight or so percent of the Republican vote to a third party candidate, and thus, McCain gets Nadered.

    But the troll lefty is blind to this.
    He hates us so much, though no libertarian has ever done anything to him or affected his life in any manner, that these pragmatic political matters will go over his simple minded little head.

    It is pathetic really because his thinking is consumed by an irrationality. It is as if he is afraid that if he gives libertarian ideas any consideration the very basis of his belief system will come tumbling down.

    When you see MK2 there, have a little
    pity and compassion because right there is a man who lacks any confidence in his own persuasive abilities and the value of his own discourse.

  552. I think anybody who claimed they could state what the beginning, middle, and end of that withdrawal [from Iraq] is going to look like is being patently dishonest.

    Beginning — a clusterfuck
    Middle — a civil war
    End — a civil war where * our * troops aren’t getting shot at

    Was that so hard?

  553. Hey, pro-war Fuckknobs- the military has a commander in chief, the country doesn’t.

    In Iraq, we are bribing and funding the Shia, the Sunni, and the Kurds. Smart? Not gonna bite us in the ass like when we armed Saddam to counter Iran? Like when we armed Al Qaeda to counter the soviets?

    Obama is a socialist, elitist-opportunist. Unfortunately he is the least objectionable of the three stooges still in contention.

  554. Ayn_Randian is a fuckin real american hero.

    Heh…I do what I can, where I can. It’s for the good of the Republic.

    What exactly is so “maverick” about McCain, Neil? That fact that he considered jumping parties, being Kerry’s running mate, his environmentalism and anti-ANWR drilling or is it his disdain for the First Amendment?

    Wow, how *original*…he sounds just like a *Blue Dog Democrat*.

  555. A_R,

    They call almost all of the RINOS “maverick”, except for Gov. Schwarzenegger. Never works the other way around, see the Senator Liberman experiance.

    In other news,

    Stop the presses!!!

    Mrs. Clinton, in response to Mr. Obama, says her grandpa taught her how to shoot as a little girl!!! Sounds like this one has Bosnia potential!!!

    She was also filmed banging back shots of Crown Royal at a Crown Point, IN fundraiser.

    Dillenger used a fake gun to break out of the Crown Point jail. How long before we have a Clinton, Dillinger connection?

  556. Urkobold? IS CONFUSED. IS Neil THE RETARDED VERSION OF TallDave OR IS TallDave THE RETARDED Neil?

    Uh…uh…uh…ZOMG LOL?

    LoL?

    LOL, for the love of God LOL!!!

    Here, let me make up some stuff you didn’t say.

    Hello?

    LoL?

  557. I think Neil is actually Lonewacko. Seriously, no one else uses an expression like “comsymp” any more. I think Lonewacko got depressed that some people weren’t responding to him any more, so he made up a sock puppet.

    One quick question – can someone tell me which “coast” Illinois is on?

  558. I don’t know, Neil’s shitty grammar and apostrophe failures single him out as a new douchebag. Not everything is a sockpuppet.

    However, if anyone is doing Neil as performance art, you are a fucking genius.

  559. I’ve literally been hissed at when I have told leftist that I am a libertarian. There is a subcategory of them that view us as an existential threat in the manner that they don’t feel as threatened by SoCons, Neocons, and movement Cons which is strange since they actually do wield political power, and we do not.
    -alan

    My theory is that the big-government crowd, both leftist and rightist, operate from a fundamentally pessimistic view of human nature. They see people as either biblically evil, or merely helpless. They derive their power from “our” need for their aid, assistance, and guidance.

    You deny their power over you; you demean them when you assert your right to retain ownership and control of your life and your self. They feed (to return to another theme from above) not so much on hate as on helplessness. This is what makes you (us) an existential threat to them and their world view.

  560. joe,

    Yeah, TallDave and Neil are annoying me with their chat acronyms.

    Thankfully, I believe there’s an appropriate one for these situations. To the lovely couple: STFU.

  561. Ayn_Randian is kicking ass on this thread! When I hear someone say they vote for the man not the party, I know I’m hearing a fool. A dangerously manipulatable fool. The parties are there to assure the voters that a candidate meets some specific criteria. Unfortunately, the Republican party didn’t do its job and they lost my vote. The party is supposed to be about principles first and politics second, but the GOP’s got it backwards.

  562. Silly me, trying to help out again one last time. Illinois is on the coast of Lake Michigan, just like Indiana, Wisconsin and Michigan are.

    Added bonus, just yesterday I was recalling that, a few years ago, some dope from Manhattan attempted to authoritatively inform me that Chicago was west of the Mississippi and I was full of crap saying that WBBM broadcasts from Chicago, since the first call letter is a W not a K.

  563. OK, Guy, so what you’re saying is that Neil is correct in describing Obama as a “coastal elite”, because Illinois has a few miles of frontage to Lake Michigan?

    Seriously?

    So anyone who borders a lake is “coastal”?

    So the Mormons in Salt Lake City are part of the “coastal elite”?

    Nevadans are part of the “coastal elite” because of the presence of Lake Mead?

    I mean, it’s OK with me if we want to start considering those states “coastal”, but it doesn’t really mesh well with Neil’s narrative about elites. Since [for example] Rochester, NY and Cleveland, OH would be transformed into “coastal elite” cities. Oh, and Gary, IN. Gary, IN – home of the coastal elites.

  564. Let us stand for the Creed.

    We believe in one Capitalism, the System Almighty, Maker of goods and services, and of all things visible and invisible.
    And in one Lord Free Market, the only-begotten Son of Capital, begotten of the System before all worlds, System of System, Light of Light, Very System of Very System, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the System by whom all things were made; who for us consumers, and for our prosperity, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of Reagan of the Virgin Margaret Thatcher, and was made real, and was regulated also for us under Franklin Roosevelt. It suffered and was buried, and the third decade rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into the world, and sitteth on the right hand of Milton Friedman. And It shall come again with gloriously unregulated to sell guns and all manner of drugs, whose kingdom shall have no end.
    And we believe in Holy Credit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the System, who with the Market and Credit together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy Libertarian movement. We acknowledge one ideology for the cancellation of thought. And we look for the resurrection of the dead economy, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

  565. Last one.

    No, Fluffy, I was telling you what “coast” Illinois is on.

    If you want to quibble the details of what someone else said, then quibble it with them, wit youre new-found fact that although Illinois is on a coast, it is not the same context as what he implied.

    Looking forward to his response pointing out to you how both Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama seem to hang out with the San Fanciscians and Manhattanites a lot, rather than the folks from Illinois.

  566. I’ve been busy all weekend.
    Did Obama say something insensitive?

  567. J sub D | April 12, 2008, 1:01pm | #

    I’m going to argue that leftist political thinking is often predicated on condescension towards the average American. Particularly towards the average red voting American. I’m not saying they are wrong in that belief. I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

    The snide comments from the left about Reagan and GW Bush’s lack of intelligence are too numerous to bring up. The Alzheimers jokes about McCain have already started and will be coming to a screen near you before November. The right’s disingenuous disparaging the patriotism of those on the left side of the spectrum is equally prevalent and odious.

    It is not just boilerplate, these folks really believe the crap they are spouting. Sad, but true.

    joe | April 12, 2008, 10:36pm | #

    The Democratic narrative on McCain isn’t nearly as sexy as all of those, I must admit. “Grouchy old warmonger demonstrating the irrational rage and mental lapses common to senility” doesn’t generate quite as much heat – but it has the virtue of being true, and thus difficult to dispel.

    Since I thanked Neil earlier (1:04 pm yesterday) for buttressing one of my points, I would be remiss if I failed to thank joe as well.

    Thanks joe.

    Like I said, “It is not just boilerplate, these folks really believe the crap they are spouting. Sad, but true.”

  568. In general usage coast refers to the land by the sea (Pacific coast, gulf coast, Atlantic coast), not the land by the lake. Shore can refer to either (seashore, lake shore).

    Go here.

  569. Grouchy old warmonger demonstrating the irrational rage and mental lapses common to senility

    I can’t wait to see that campaign ad! I’m sure the AARP will love it.

  570. Oh, and did I mention… LOL?

  571. Urkobold? IS CONFUSED. IS Neil THE RETARDED VERSION OF TallDave OR IS TallDave THE RETARDED Neil?

    Well, according to joe, Neil is apparently me when I’m, bitter, before I’ve clutched my guns and Bibles for a good long while and can LOL, LMAO, and even ROTFLMAO again.

  572. Hes tied in New York with McCain, and we all know New York is a hardcore conservative red state LOL.

    Of course.

    That is why they demanded that Spitzer resign in disgrace.

  573. JsD,

    The Lake Michigan shore area in Chicago has been known as the Gold Coast for a bit longer than either of us has been around.

    Now, I can’t wait to see the salinity debate that will follow.

  574. Now for something completly irrelevant

    “Land next to the sea; the seashore.”

    The Great Lakes including Lake Michigan are often defined as inland sea.

    Therefore it would be the mid-coast

  575. Good gravy, dudes, 577 comments? And I am (Swear to God!) the 100,000th visitor. You were too!

    And now, back to last minute extensions and………….

    It’s hell working Sunday when it’s 85 degrees and so clear that I can see the planes on approach to LAX from my windows. For point of reference that’s about 75 miles. Hell, I can dang near see the Hollywood sign.

  576. It snowed last night here.

    (I’d try go for 600, but its time to go for a beer – besides usually by the time I ever comment, the thread is dead)

  577. “My theory is that the big-government crowd, both leftist and rightist, operate from a fundamentally pessimistic view of human nature. They see people as either biblically evil, or merely helpless. They derive their power from ‘our’ need for their aid, assistance, and guidance.”

    If I had more optimism, I would have greater confidence in the humans who hold government posts – that they would be able to order society in the right way if only their hearts were pure.

  578. Quick, somebody give the thread mouth-to-mouth, while I pump its chest!

    Live, thread, live!

    Arise and walk.

  579. Well, does anyone else agree Obama is the new Duekkakis after his “bitter” comment?

    They’re even comparing it to John Kerry windsurfing!

  580. I have to say, Fisk out-Fisked himself yesterday. Well done.

    Give it a look-see, Kneel!

    Semantics can’t mask Bush’s chicanery
    This goes beyond hollow laughter. Since when did armies go around ‘re-liberating’

    “Now let’s take a look at this piece of chicanery and subject it to a little linguistic analysis. Five years ago, it was victory – ie success – but this has now been transmogrified into a mere “prospect” of success. And not a “prospect”, mark you, that has even been glimpsed. No, we have “renewed” and “revived” this prospect. “Revived”, as in “brought back from the dead”. Am I the only one to be sickened by this obscene semantics? How on earth can you “renew” a “prospect”, let alone a prospect that continues to be bathed in Iraqi blood, a subject Bush wisely chose to avoid?

    Note, too, the constant use of words that begin with “re -“. Renew. Revive. And – incredibly – Bush also told us that “we actually re-liberated certain communities”. This, folks, goes beyond hollow laughter. Since when did armies go around “re-liberating” anything? And what does that credibility-sapping “actually” mean? I suspect it was an attempt by the White House speech writer to suggest – by sleight of hand, of course – that Bush was really – really – telling the truth this time. But by putting “actually” in front of “re-liberate” – as opposed to just “liberate” – the whole grammatical construction falls apart. Rather like Iraq.

    For by my reckoning, we have now “re-liberated” Fallujah twice. We have “re-liberated” Mosul three times and “re-liberated” Ramadi four times. The scorecard goes on. My files show that Sadr City may have been “re-liberated” five times, while Baghdad is “re-liberated” on an almost daily basis. General David Petraeus, in his pitiful appearance before the US Senate armed services committee, was bound to admit his disappointment at the military failure of the equally pitiful Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki in Basra. He had not followed Petraeus’ advice; which was presumably to “re-liberate” the city (for the fourth time, by my calculation but with a bit more planning).

    Indeed, Petraeus told senators that after his beloved “surge” goes home, the US will need a period of “consolidation and evaluation” – which is suspiciously close to saying that the US military will be, as the old adage goes, “redeployed to prepared positions”. Ye gods! Where will this tomfoolery end?”

  581. Obama has lost the bitter Republican vote, BFD.

    You Republiclowns owned the 3 branches of gov for years and you people still whine and complain.

  582. I love the way the Snobacans always come out to say that he didn’t choose his words carefully. He’s a Harvard Law School graduate and editor and he didn’t choose his words carefully. Obaman chose his words very carefully to mock all small town people and to demean them. I am outraged. No spin by Obama can correct this momental revelation made by Obama’s words from his own mouth. I will never vote for him in my lifetime.

  583. Obaman chose his words very carefully to mock all small town people and to demean them. I am outraged.

    A man who’s running for president does not intentionally try to insult large swathes of the country. Harvard law school graduates are no more infallible that anyone else, and if you give a dozen speeches a day for a year or so, odds are you’re going to screw up from time to time. It just happens.

    That being said, there are more than a few too many conservative prima donnas around here. Grow a pair.

  584. The implication that the only reason people don’t vote for socialism is that they don’t trust they will get it, rather than that they just don’t particularly want it, shows the campaign’s fundamental inability to understand the values of the rural poor.

    I’m from north Alabama, and l’ll go ahead and tell you that the idealized days of the “poor but proud” are long gone.

  585. “The snide comments from the left about Reagan and GW Bush’s lack of intelligence are too numerous to bring up. The Alzheimers jokes about McCain have already started and will be coming to a screen near you before November.”

    But Reagan was dumb as dirt, and Bush is a moron. McCain is getting near that age when Alzheimers starts to show up (in Reagan’s case it probably started in his teens). The Republicans have been suckering nitwit lower-middle class Americans into voting against their own interests for years. What is it about the right that attracts so many stupid people?

  586. Wow, MK2. Way to prove him right about lefties slurring Republicans.

    Reagan: are you just angry at him because he almost singlehandedly drove your socialist paradise into bankruptcy?

    Bush: I don’t like him either, but for a “moron” he sure knows how to win elections and bend Democratic Congresses to his will.

    McCain: are you saying ALL people 72 years old have Alzheimers? Or even a majority?

  587. It’s too bad joe wasn’t around to spin for Trent Lott when he said that “too bad you didn’t win” line at Strom Thurmond’s birthday party. I mean, if he can spin Obama’s explicit statement that rural Pennsylvanians are racist, homophobic bible-thumpers, who knows what he could have done for Lott’s more ambiguous quote.

    Oh wait, joe WAS around at the time of Trent Lott’s fall from grace. But for some reason he didn’t spin for him. Hmm, I wonder.

  588. Chris,

    C’mon, Reagan was pretty stupid. Your obvious inability to distinguish between socialism and the mixed economy you’ve lived in all your life make me think you’re no genius either. Not all old people get Alzheimers, but we certainly see more Alzheimers than we used to now that folks are living longer . The Republican predilection for old farts means more Republican politicians will succumb to the disease, not that anybody will notice. Those on the political left are just smarter. Maybe it has something to do with diet.

  589. Right-wingers tend to be fat, too. It’s the Limbaugh syndrome.

  590. Left wingers tend to be homosexual. It’s the Dan Savage syndrome.
    Left wingers tend to be obnoxious, no talent bitches. It’s the Rosie O’Odonell syndrome.
    Left wingers tend to be traitors, it’s the Alger Hiss syndrome.

    Hey, this game is fun. Can anybody play?

  591. I think that those who have been trolling this thread would find this link interesting. Those who have not shouldn’t bother.

  592. Left wing trolls tend to be condescending assholes who aren’t one tenth as clever or insightful as they think they are. It’s the MK2 syndrome.

  593. MK2,

    Our economy has remained “mixed” for the past 75 years solely because of the resistance my righty forebears put up against your lefty forebears. If your copartisans had had their way during the intervening decades, you and I would be standing in line for toilet paper and complaining about the price of vodka right now.

    In any case, you seem to have intelligence issues of your own, based on your apparent belief that “Reagan was stupid” is a logical argument.

  594. Obaman chose his words very carefully to mock all small town people and to demean them. I am outraged.

    A man who’s running for president does not intentionally try to insult large swathes of the country.

    Obama was speaking at a private event in San Francisco, where it appears he deliberately mocked people in flyover country because he thought the remarks would stay in the room, and would resonate in that room. Except someone recorded it.

    A known hazard of tailoring your remarks to each audience, and of saying things you don’t actually believe, is that sooner or later your remarks to a friendly crowd wind up being heard by a different crowd who are more hostile to said remarks.

    Karma.

  595. Obama’s explicit statement that rural Pennsylvanians are racist, homophobic bible-thumpers

    I must have missed that “explicit” statement. Maybe there will be a thread about it.

    You just can’t help it, can you? That’s what I love about partisans – they just can’t help themselves from tipping their hands, whether through pointless name-calling or credibility-sinking exaggeration.

    You can’t call him by his actual name, you have to make up “Obamaramakins” or something. You can’t use a neutral term to refer to the statement we’re all familiar with, you just have to call it an “explicit statement.”

    You’re like the sock puppets who write in to the newspapers, “As a lifelong member of the Democrat party, I am concerned that Hussein Osama won’t be as strong a candidate as Hitlery.”

  596. The Republican base is stupid. Half–maybe more–are racist, Bible-thumping, xenophobic ignoramuses who don’t believe in evolution. Some probably think the earth is flat. It’s concentrated in rural areas and intellectually sterile suburbs that are dominated by ugly strip malls.

    The democratic base is smart, cosmopolitcan, and scientifically literate. It’s concentrated in academia and the entertainment industry, where brains are an asset. You couldn’t swing a cat in a museum or at a classical music concert without hitting one.

  597. You can’t call him by his actual name, you have to make up “Obamaramakins” or something. You can’t use a neutral term to refer to the statement we’re all familiar with, you just have to call it an “explicit statement.”

    C’mon joe. You know that in the ’30s when the movie screen faded to black or dissolved to an ocean view, that was explicit sex.

    Partisans will will be partisan. If the evidence doesn’t support your view, dissemble.

  598. Chris,

    As George Soros has pointed out, what you market fundamentalists call “market corrections” have actually been government interventions preventing a collapse of the whole system. When you substitute economic dogma and stupid slogans for thought, you can’t see things clealry. But you really don’t think Reagan was smart, do you?

  599. I wonder if MK2’s Mom and Dad know if their little boy is playing on the internet.

    Some parents are really negligent.

  600. Mom’s a nuclear physicist, and Dad’s brain surgeon. Both are out working for Obama, so they don’t have a lot of time for supervision, but they trust me.

  601. Ever see this?

    “Ronald Reagan used to alarm other constituencies by speaking freely about the “End Times” foreshadowed in the Bible. In the Oval Office, Ronald Reagan told Yitzhak Shamir and Simon Wiesenthal, on two separate occasions, that he himself had assisted personally at the liberation of the Nazi death camps.” –Christopher Hitchens “The Stupidity of Ronald Reagan”

  602. Mom’s a nuclear physicist, and Dad’s brain surgeon. Both are out working for Obama, so they don’t have a lot of time for supervision, but they trust me.

    [Correction]Mom’s a crack whore, and Dad’s her supplier. . Both are out working the streets, so they don’t have a lot of time for supervision, but I was raised by Head Start and the public school system. The fools trust me.[/Correction]

    My work here is done.

  603. Ronald Reagan was never a Trotskyite Communist, he never said that the Communist victory in the Soviet Civil War of the 1920s was a good thing, and was never a fanatical, irrational atheist.

  604. “The Republican base is stupid. Half–maybe more–are racist, Bible-thumping, xenophobic ignoramuses who don’t believe in evolution. Some probably think the earth is flat. It’s concentrated in rural areas and intellectually sterile suburbs that are dominated by ugly strip malls.

    The democratic base is smart, cosmopolitcan, and scientifically literate. It’s concentrated in academia and the entertainment industry, where brains are an asset. You couldn’t swing a cat in a museum or at a classical music concert without hitting one.”

    Find a dictionary, look up the word racist or bigoted. Then go back and re-read this tripe and maybe, for the first time in your life, you’ll form a coherent thought in that steel trap of a head you have.

  605. WHObuckeye

    I looked them up, and I don’t see your point. By the dictionary definition, most right-wingers are racists and bigots. It make sense that they would choose Ronald Reagan as their icon. They could hardly relate to Einstein, could they?

  606. joe,

    When you say people “cling to antipathy towards people who aren’t like them”, you’re calling them bigots, regardless of the big words and complicated sentence structure you’re cloaking that statement in.

    J sub D,

    This isn’t a 30’s movie cutting to black. This is a video of copulation with a blanket over the business parts. Sure, they don’t actually show penetration, but if you seriously think they’re not fucking you’re a fool or a partisan.

  607. Really dumb Republicans:

    Ronald Reagan
    Gerald Ford
    Tom Delay
    Tom (I think that’s his name) Tancredo
    George Allen
    Ron Paul (Does he count as a Republican?)
    Most (almost all) evangelical preachers

    Really smart Democrats

    Jimmy Carter
    Bill Clinton
    John Edwards (Highly successful trial lawyers have to be smart)
    Barack Obama
    George Soros
    Most scientists (something like 93%)

  608. Joe, you’re deluded. You know what they said on the Sunday talk shows this morning? That this is Obama’s windsurfing moment, his Dukakis in a tank moment, his “I invented the internet” moment.

    Democrat Party candidates always manage to make themselves look like out of touch elitists, which of course they are! LOL!

  609. You can’t call him by his actual name, you have to make up “Obamaramakins” or something. You can’t use a neutral term to refer to the statement we’re all familiar with, you just have to call it an “explicit statement.”

    I believe I just called him Obama. Maybe you’re reading a different version of my post than I am.

    And the statement was explicit — far more so than the statement you and your ilk crucified Trent Lott over. If you don’t want people calling what you say “explicit statements”, you shouldn’t make explicit statements. I guess the facts aren’t neutral.

  610. Hey Joe maybe Obama should go windsurfing with John Kerry? Haha!

  611. Elitists tend to be drawn from the elite. You don’t find many in evangelical churches and other haunts of the Republican base.

  612. Really smart Democrats

    Jimmy Carter [the first engineer-President since Herbert Hoover, another smart guy. Carter was particularly smart in the way he handled the Iranians]

    Bill Clinton [a true genius when it came to subjecting his libido to the requirements of reason and morality]

    John Edwards (Highly successful trial lawyers have to be smart) [polls suggest that whoever he endorses in the primary will get *less* support from Democratic voters in his native state than the person he didn’t endorse. What genius!]

    Barack Obama [He’s so smart, we have an entire thread devoted to his intelligent remarks]

    George Soros [snicker]

    Most scientists (something like 93%) [Based on the scientists I knew, this is only because there isn’t a viable Socialist Party they can join in this country.]

  613. Also, I don’t quite get how I can be accused of being “partisan” when I criticize McCain as much or more than either of the Dems. I know joe claims I’m a “third party partisan” — of which third party I’m not sure, since I criticize the LP as well — but if we take such a label seriously, that means anyone who’s not a Democrat is automatically a partisan.

    Don’t be suprised when, after you define everyone else as your enemy, you’re surrounded by enemies.

  614. I clicked your link!

  615. I noticed quite a few more entries here today. Came by to check it out, and what do I find? You people have been feeding the troll.

    Shame! Shame! Shame on you.

    What is wrong with you people? You know you are not going to get anything out of it, intelligent banter, a learning experience, nothing beyond a few rhetorical points against an asshole who doesn’t care about the truth.

  616. MK2:

    are you related to MC-5?

    oh yeah!

  617. Chris Potter,

    Whoops, in my head, I made it clear that I was addressing both you and Sandy with that comment.

    And the statement was explicit Yes, it was. It was an explicit statement about people who don’t vote on economic issues, but on cultural issues, because they don’t get no satisfaction when they vote on economic issues. What is was NOT was an “explicit statement that rural Pennsylvanians are racist, homophobic bible-thumpers.”

    Also, I don’t quite get how I can be accused of being “partisan” when I criticize McCain as much or more than either of the Dems. Why, a libertarian. Duh.

  618. Kneel, you keep talking about “they.” “They” who?

    People who make a living drumming up political controversies? People who make a living working for Republicans? People who make a living working for the Hillary Clinton campaign?

    “They” all said the same thing about Obama’s comment about bombing al Qaeda in Pakistan. And about his statement that day after the Wright video hit the news. And the day he gave the “A More Perfect Union” Speech. And the day he made the “typical white person” remark.

    “They” haven’t been right yet, but don’t worry. This time, Lucy totally isn’t going to yank the football away from you.

  619. Dammit, stupid joke name.

  620. Meanwhile, John McCain is measuring for drapes in the Oval Office.

    A short play about John McCain

    John McCain: “Blue is the color of the canton of the flag of the United States of America. Only blue drapes would be appropriate.”

    Jim Luton, Republican advisor: “Blue drapes might seem to imply that you betrayed your party in a time of national crisis, sir. May I suggest red?”

    John McCain: “Of course, blue drapes would be foolish. Only red drapes are appropriate, befitting America’s traditional republic form of government.”

    Agnes Knowles, retiree from FL: “Red drapes make me feel like the reds have taken over the White House. Why not green? My son is in the military.”

    John McCain: “Right you are – red communism was a dire threat to global freedom. Green would be suitable, since it is the traditional color of those guarantors of freedom.”

    Robert M. Foley, Wendy’s manager from OH: “Green drapes in the White House! Unbelievable! This is just what those eco whackjobs want, you know, for the President to endorse their terroristic agenda.”

    John McCain: “Well, I am certainly not an eco whackjob! Purple drapes, I have always been a firm supporter of purple drapes – even when it was unpopular.”

    Jack Thompson, professional nut: “Purple drapes, eh? Don’t think we don’t know what that means, Mr. McCain. Don’t think we don’t know about your clandestine support for the homosexual agenda!”

    John McCain: “No drapes, then! It will be a symbol of the transparency that will be central to my administration!”

    ???, undisclosed official: “With all due respect, Sen. McCain, we have a saying in the Pentagon: don’t write checks your ass can’t cash.”

    John McCain: “Well, tarnation. If only they made America-colored drapes, then it would all be so easy.”

  621. Also, Chris Potter,

    When you say people “cling to antipathy towards people who aren’t like them”, you’re calling them bigots

    I disagree. And what’s more, Barack Obama disagrees. Did you ever even bother to watch or read his “A More Perfect Union” speech? He goes into this issue in some depth.

    Was he calling his pastor a bigot in that speech? Was he calling his grandmother a bigot? No, he was talking about a common part of the human experience, and where it comes from, and how it is not a mark of evil on people for which they should be condemned.

  622. Joe it was all over the tv this morning.

    James Carville, Mary Matalin, Ed Rendell, Wolf Blitzer, Chris Wallace, Evan Bayh, Pat Buchannan….they all said this is going to sink Obama because it makes him look like a liberal costal elitist. Whats more, he made those remarks in SAN FRANCSICO! It couldn’t be more perfect!

    And the new Rasmussen poll has McCain +4 after this!

    Don’t worry, when he looses he can still go windsurfing with his buddy John Kerry.

  623. What is was NOT was an “explicit statement that rural Pennsylvanians are racist, homophobic bible-thumpers.”

    You still haven’t explained how saying someone “clings to antipathy toward people who aren’t like them” isn’t equivalent to calling that person a bigot. Even if he’s saying they’re only bigots because the economy is bad, he’s still calling them bigots.

  624. You can keep pretending that regular folks in the heartland like being talked down to by a costal elitist (yes, Chicagoland is the “third coast”) but that won’t make it true Joe.

    They may not have Ivy League educations but they have dignity, and they LIKE their guns and churches!

  625. And what’s more, Barack Obama disagrees. Did you ever even bother to watch or read his “A More Perfect Union” speech? He goes into this issue in some depth.

    All that means is that he says different things when he knows he’s being recorded. Now that doesn’t make him worse than most politicians, but last I knew that wasn’t the image he was peddling.

  626. Hale,

    You’re the same guy who made this, aren’t you?

  627. James Carville works for the Hillary Clinton campaign

    Mary Matalin is a Republican

    Ed Rendell works for the Hillary Clinton campaignl

    Wolf Blitzer drums up political controversies for a living.

    Chris Wallace is a Republican

    Evan Bayh works for the Hillary Clinton campaign

    Pat Buchannan is a Republican, and doesn’t have a double n in his name.

    And what’s more, each and every one of them said the Wright controversy was going to sink him, too.

    No, but don’t worry about any of that. Boy, you really got that pesky roadrunner now.

  628. joe,

    Would you be insulted if someone said you “cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like you”?

  629. Yeah the speech where he threw his grandma under the bus! LOL yeah that’ll fix everything!

  630. yes, Chicagoland is the “third coast”

    Only in your tiny, tiny mind.

  631. Third coast? Are you kidding?!

    Chicago is obviously the #1 coast!

  632. they LIKE their guns and churches!

    You have yet to firmly establish that Obama would make a move to strip you of your precious churches…the irony being that people like you were going on and on about Obama’s pastor two weeks ago.

    What’s it like, Neil, to be such a simpleton? I bet it’s nice to have other people dress and feed you.

  633. Chris Potter, did you watch the speech, or not? I think you didn’t.

    Because if you had, you would know that, as a matter of fact, he did not say different things to different audiences. He made exactly the same point in the Speech as he did this Friday.

    Perhaps, rather than making up your mind based on what you think some category of people are like – in this case, “politicians” – you could consider the ideas he expressed in the speech, the ideas he expressed this past Friday, and come to a meaningful conclusion.

  634. He can’t make another speech Joe, especially not about something he said off camera when he thought he wasn’t being recorded.

    Whats more, this breathes new life into the Rev. Wright story. Drip drip drip, more and more things like this are going to come out to eat away at his clean image.

    Next up: He was in the Million Man March.

  635. I don’t really care much for Obama, but I have to say that it will be nice not to be treated like I’m stupid for the next four years (as opposed to the last eight).

    Obama may treat us like children, but at least he’ll treat us like smart but misguided children.

  636. joe,

    Would you be insulted if someone said you “cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like you”?

    So now we’re off ideas, and onto feelings? It’s so hard to keep up. I thought we were going to have a meaningful exchange about actual ideas and meanings. I guess not.

    Neil,

    Yeah the speech where he threw his grandma under the bus! LOL yeah that’ll fix everything! Oh, right, how silly of me. Yes, Neil, I agree – the out come of this is likely to be just as damaging to Obama as the aftermath of his “A More Perfect Union” speech.

    Maybe I can find someone with a really deep understanding of politics – you know, like someone who understands that hippies really love Lyndon Johnson – to explain this to me.

  637. BTW Joe those record Democrat Party registrations are just part of Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos!

    A lot of those “Democrats” are people like me!

  638. Neil may have stepped directly out of a cartoon about Republicans, but there’s a valuable point to be inferred from his tone-deaf prating:

    Taking something that someone’s actively into – like guns and church in the case of rural Pennsylvania dorks – and trying to diagnose it as though it were part of a disease will always seem insufferably pompous. The mistake wasn’t the use of the word “bitter,” it was the implicit judgment that there’s something wrong with the way know-nothing hayseeds from Pennsylvania live their lives.

    So, I suspect that Obama has just made a significant mistake. The Rev. Wright thing – that was just dress rehearsal. How he spins this one will make or break his campaign – and instinct tells me that he needs to knock out Clinton with the same blow or both he and the Democratic Party are in trouble.

  639. That was my reaction, too, AR: I’m not used to having a politician speak to me as if I can understand ideas above a third-grade level.

  640. BTW Joe those record Democrat Party registrations are just part of Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos!

    Oh barf. There’s no evidence that said childish stunt is making a whit of difference.

    Tell me, Neil, do you actually believe IN something? Or are you just against Democrats? You’re like an empty vessel.

  641. joe,

    I was travelling that day, but I caught the part about his grandmother while I was at a rest stop. It’s really not relevant, because in that case he (1) was talking about SPECIFIC PEOPLE, not lumping whole groups together, and (2) clearly communicated that the attitudes of his granny and reverend were negative attributes of people he liked otherwise.

    Sure, I don’t think he would call either one a “bigot”, but that’s because he knows much else about them. If all he knew about his grandmother was her fear of blacks, and all he knew about Wright was his rhetoric against whites, then I daresay he would consider them bigots. In any case, I don’t see how you can think that his comments about Pennsylvanians portray them in anything but a negative light.

  642. BTW Joe those record Democrat Party registrations are just part of Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos!

    You mean the one he announced before the Ohio/Texas primary?

    There have been record Democratic registrations and turnouts since Iowa, Einstein. Can you read a calendar?

    You display all the intelligent political sense of someone who claims that John McCain is more afraid of facing Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama.

  643. John-David,

    If only I were as clever and skillful with ANSI code. Alas, I toil in the shadow of greater talents.

  644. Chris Potter,

    Watch the whole speech. It’s on You Tube. There are transcripts all over the place.

    And actually, one of his most important points was about “a whole group” – black men of Jeremiah Wright’s generation.

    Seriously, watch the whole thing. It might change the “light” in which you understand these latest comments.

  645. I’m not used to having a politician speak to me as if I can understand ideas above a third-grade level.

    Still, joe, the question is how the citizenry will be treated with President Obama.

    I mean, what’s this all about?:
    In September 2006, Obama voted for the Secure Fence Act, authorizing the construction of 700 miles (1,100 km) of fencing along the United States-Mexico border

  646. joe,

    You’re a slippery one, aren’t you? OK, let me rephrase the question: if Person A says that Person B “clings to antipathy toward people who aren’t like Person B”, would you think that Person A is praising or insulting Person B? I’m not asking how you would feel about Person A or Person B, just how you would objectively characterize Person A’s opinion of Person B.

  647. It’s about 38 minutes long, Chris. Make sure you have the time for the whole thing, because you’re not going to want to stop it in the middle.

  648. would you think that Person A is praising or insulting Person B? I think Person A is making a negative statement about something Person B does, or thinks.

    Is Person A insulting Person B as a person, and not just dissenting from an opinion? This, Mr. Potter, is the part where you have to watch “A More Perfect Union.”

    Look, Chris, I’m not going to talk you into anything here.

    Watch the speech, then let’s talk.

  649. I’m not used to having a politician speak to me as if I can understand ideas above a third-grade level.

    Ah, yes. When someone says I should vote for them because they’ll “unify the country” and bring “hope and change”, I feel so flattered about my critical thinking abilities.

  650. You Republiclowns owned the 3 branches of gov for years and you people still whine and complain.

    Parties aren’t supposed to “own” government. And I’d like to mention that for every big government Republican program that came down the pike, the Ds were in the background screaming “that’s not good enough!”

    The Democrats were supposedly swept into office in ’06 to end the war. Thanks, guys.

  651. See, if you’d seen that speech, you would have gotten the reference. Do you think Ayn Randian, who made exactly the same point about Obama being straight with us and talking to us as if we are not ADHD-suffering parakeets, is just a Democratic partisan shilling for the apparent nominee?

    Yes, Barack Obama indulges in the rah rah bullshit in his stump speeches. That’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about “A More Perfect Union.”

    Chris, have you noticed that I’m not so quick to throw around accusations of racism lately?

    Watch it, then let’s talk.

  652. I feel so flattered about my critical thinking abilities.

    It’s not so much that I feel flattered is that it’s refreshing, Senor Crimethink. I’m not going to vote for the man just because he speaks better than most politicians, no more than I’d date a talented stripper, but having someone who knows what they’re doing once in a while is nice.

  653. joe,

    I don’t need to watch the whole speech (I did see about 15 minutes of it at the time). What he said then is irrelevant to this discussion. The mental contortions one must do to interpret what he said as anything other than an insult to Pennsylvanians are beyond my capability, and I’m unlikely to gain such capability with another 23 minutes of any speech.

  654. Tell me, Neil, do you actually believe IN something? Or are you just against Democrats? You’re like an empty vessel.

    Neil is a bot created and operated by Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin et al..

  655. I did find this interesting:

    “So it’s not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to…anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    hmm.

  656. Do you think Ayn Randian, who made exactly the same point about Obama being straight with us and talking to us as if we are not ADHD-suffering parakeets, is just a Democratic partisan shilling for the apparent nominee?

    Unlike some people I know, I don’t assume that anyone who disagrees with me is a partisan shill.

    However, keep in mind that there was no banal, lowest-common-denominator way he was going to get out of that mess. His only option for survival was to treat us like adults for 38 minutes and hope we really were such. Thanks, but I’ll judge him on the level of his rhetoric when the banal path is open to him.

  657. Not to be an Obamabot for a second, but I don’t think Obama was earnestly trying to be insulting; he just considers issues like gun rights (I mean, he’s got an “F” from the NRA and the GOA), in-fighting over whether there should be prayer in schools and the like to be entirely secondarily and relatively petty concerns as compared to the War, the Economy, etc.

    It’s a partial insult, but I think he’s a decent person overall.

    Now, that having been said: he’s bad on guns, supports increased government spending, opposes school vouchers, hasn’t convinced me he’s going to end the war and supports increased intervention(!) in the Sudan. He’s not my guy by any stretch of the imagination.

  658. You can stay in denial mode Joe but this is just what my side has been waiting for!

    Remember “I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it!”

    Yeah, its gonna be like that.

    I can see the ads now.

  659. However, keep in mind that there was no banal, lowest-common-denominator way he was going to get out of that mess. His only option for survival was to treat us like adults for 38 minutes and hope we really were such.

    That has never stopped a presidential candidate from trying it the banal way first.

  660. I think that this comment from yesterday bears repeating. I mean, will Obama look at NARAL and say “I think you need to stop worrying about this abortion stuff so much…there’s bigger issues about which to be concerned!”

    You can stay in denial mode Joe but this is just what my side has been waiting for!

    You don’t have a “side”, Neil…you have a fetish for anyone with “R” next to their name, no matter how resolutely RINO they are.

  661. A_R,

    So, did he also just consider Pennsylvanians’ “antipathy toward people who aren’t like them and anti-immigrant sentiment” less important than health care issues? Give me a break. He’s insulting them, behind their backs.

    Decent people don’t talk shit about others behind their backs. Period.

    Obama is NOT a decent person. Affable perhaps, but certainly not decent.

  662. Chris Potter,

    What he said then is irrelevant to this discussion.

    No, it’s not. He goes on for some time about an issue that is absolutely, directly relevant to the issue on the table here – the relationship between experienced-induced resentment and moral character.

    I know I sound like a broken record here, but…well, you know what I’m going to say. I didn’t bring up “A More Perfect Union” because I get royalties, you know.

  663. AR McCain is not a RINO.

    He voted with bush 85% of the time. He also has a very high rating from the American Conservative Union.

    Thats NOT A RINO!

  664. Neil,
    What even are you talking about? What are the ads that you envision like? How does this situation relate in any way to John Kerry’s douchebaggery?

    Oh no! A Democrat insults Republican voters! How is anyone surprised or offended by this? It’s importance is on par with that dude who buried a Red Sox jersey in the new Yankee Stadium.

  665. Let me add to that a bit, Neil:

    You stand FOR NOTHING.

    Smaller government? Nope.
    Budget balances? No again.
    Humble foreign policy? Sorry.
    Free-markets? FAIL
    Free speech? Don’t worry about McCain-Feingold!

    I say again, you’re an empty vessel who’ll be temporarily filled by whatever crap happens to appeal to your whimsy. A range-of-the-moment emotionalist shill who has to feel part of a “team” because he really doesn’t have any convictions or beliefs of his own. A fourth-rate low mind with a herd mentality.

  666. ah and now I know that Neil is a troll. First of all, he voted with Bush’s preference 85% of the time (not “with Bush”), and second if voting for Medicare Part D, No Child Left Behind, gigantic new Federal bureaucracies, and engaging in nation-building is conservative, then the word has lost all its meaning.

  667. You can stay in denial mode Joe but this is just what my side has been waiting for!

    You mean like “throwing his grandmother under the bus,” “If we had actionable intelligence, I would hit bin Laden in Pakistan,” “I think she’s a typical white person,” and “I could no more disown him than I could disown my own family?”

    Your side seems to be waiting for an awful lot, and then getting it, and then not really having it turn out to be what you wanted after all.

    Maybe, just maybe, the fact that you can conceive of a political attack on Barack Obama doesn’t actually mean that such an attack is going to work.

  668. Let me add that it’s not talking behind someone’s back if you first say the same thing to their face. So, if he had said the same thing at a rally in rural Pennsylvania last week, I wouldn’t have a problem with that dimension of it.

  669. What will the ad be like?

    IT will probably show Obama throwing gutter balls, with the quote about small-town, heatland swing voters being “Bitter” and “clinging to religion”.

    At the end “OBAMA–WRONG ON OUR VALUES, WRONG FOR AMERICA!”

    Something like that.

  670. also, “he” is McCain, who (just to be clear) sucks.

  671. Neil,
    What are your values, and how does Barack Obama offend them?

  672. So, did he also just consider Pennsylvanians’ “antipathy toward people who aren’t like them and anti-immigrant sentiment” less important than health care issues?

    Not just less important, but a consequence of their inability, due to political disenfranchisement, to bring about opportunity for themselves and their communities. That is exactly the point he was making on Friday – and also, one of the major theses of “A More Perfect Union.”

    You know how deeply Barack Obama holds those people in Pennsylvania in contempt, Chris? So deeply, that he speaks about them in the same terms that he spoke about the pastor of the church that meant so much to him.

  673. He voted with bush 85% of the time.

    What the hell is conservative about that?

    He also has a very high rating from the American Conservative Union.

    Oh yeah, and grades from a D to C+ from the NRA. Wonderful. And an “F” (just like Obama!) from the Gunowners of America.

    NTU estimates that a McCain Presidency will increase spending by 7 billion…that is, not counting the 200 billion a year for the 100-years war in Iraq.

  674. If someone buttered me up to my face because he needed my vote, then a couple of days later told someone else I had an experience-induced resentment, I’d be pretty insulted.

    The fact that he avoided saying I had bad moral character wouldn’t matter much.

  675. Senator Obama is just yet another DC beltway person asking me for change. See the Onion a few weeks ago for the funnier version.

  676. small-town, heatland swing

    mmm, who doesn’t love small-town swinging girls in HeatLand?

    An Obama presidency sounds like it conforms with my values…

  677. What do I stand for AR?

    Tax cuts

    Conservative, strict constructionist judges (like Roberts and Alito)

    Ending Roe v. Wade

    Victory in the Global War on Terror

    Keeping God in the public square

  678. I toldja, Chris, Obama thinks of us as smart but misguided children. He probably has a bit of a complex about it, actually.

  679. Forgot to add:

    Free trade

    and NO socialized medicene!

  680. joe,

    If it’s such a sign of affection to say that people “cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like them and anti-immigrant sentiment”, one wonders why Obama only said it behind closed doors. Why didn’t he bring it up at his rallies in Pennsylvania?

    Imagine the impact. “You people don’t like people who aren’t like you, and you don’t like immigrants…but I love you anyway!” Now THAT would be a speech that would earn some respect!

  681. Chris,

    Obama was in San Francisco, in a group of San Francisco Democrats. One of them asked, to paraphrase, “Why don’t those midwestern people vote for candidates who they agree with about economic issues, if they’re hurting so much economically?”

    He answered, to paraphrase, “Because they’ve tried, and it hasn’t gotten them anything. They’ve learned through experience that most politicians, even the ones who say they are going to stand with them on those issues, sell them out and don’t do anything to help them. So they vote on stuff like guns, religion, and immigration – because they’re angry about what’s happened to their jobs and want to blame someone, and because they don’t think it will do any good to vote on economic issues.”

  682. Tax cuts

    Which stands for “Credit Card Government” if you refuse to commensurately reduce spending. That’s not fiscally responsible.

    Ending Roe v. Wade

    Keep dreaming.

    Victory in the Global War on Terror

    Which we established that nobody knows what means or looks like.

  683. If it’s such a sign of affection…

    Could you please limit your replies to things I actually write?

    Thanks.

  684. I didn’t say it was “a sign of affection,” Potter.

    I refuted your assertion that he called them, and thinks of them as, bigots.

    Big difference.

    Watch the speech. He doesn’t congratulate Wright and the angry men of his generation, for his angry, blameful ideology. But he doesn’t call them bigots, either. He sympathizes, talks about where it comes from, and talks about moving forward, and getting out of that ditch with a positive program.

  685. joe,

    Gee golly, where did the “antipathy toward people who aren’t like them” go in your paraphrase? It appears it was translated as a comma. Is that the same trick the Supremes use with regard to Article I Section 8?

    Thanks, but I’m an originalist in interpreting the Constitution AND Obama speeches.

  686. There’s this old way of thinking, Chris, where we call everyone with a resentment a terrible person, and where we freak the hell out over every observation that people have resentments.

    And there’s this new way of thinking – one Barack Obama lays out very clearly in the speech you won’t watch – that could move us forward, and out of that ditch.

    I’ve been guilty of some of that myself, and I’ve tried to change.

    Come towards the light.

  687. Some people want peace and understanding, and some people look for an excuse to go to war.

    You get to choose.

  688. I discussed the ideas in the statement, Chris. The actual content, what he was saying.

    All you want to do is pick at a scab to see if you can make it bleed.

    You remind me of the runty kid on the playground who says “Jimmy said he can kick your ass” because he wants to see a fight.

  689. Gee golly, where did the “antipathy toward people who aren’t like them” go in your paraphrase?

    Here, I’ll bold it for you.

    So they vote on stuff like guns, religion, and immigration…

  690. Scroll up, Neil. As I stated last night, you movement Cons have nothing to gain with your support of McCain on every thing that matters to you, from tax policy, environmental policy, gun rights, and Supreme Court justices, either way it goes in November, it is going to be the centrist day in the sun and you are SOL. So go ahead and have your fun with the Democrat of the season, you too are going to know what it means to be an outsider for quite some time.

  691. wtf RU doing on a comment thread lozers? Get a job haha you losers r funny 2 me.

    BTW I am Barack Hussein Obama.

  692. I didn’t say it was “a sign of affection,” Potter.

    You said “he speaks about them in the same terms that he spoke about the pastor of the church that meant so much to him.” If his criticism of Pennsylvanians’ attitudes on race/sexual orientation/religion is simply a sign that he cares about them, why didn’t he say this in Pennsylvania?

    I refuted your assertion that he called them, and thinks of them as, bigots.

    You’ve done no such thing. I explained why it was possible for him to call out his grandmother’s and Wright’s attitudes without calling them bigots, but not possible in the case of Pennsylvanians. If all you know about someone is that they “cling to antipathy towards people who aren’t like them”, then you have no choice but to consider them bigots.

  693. and NO socialized medicene!

    It’s medicine.

  694. Better a maverick conservative with centrist leanings than an extreme liberal Democrat like B. Hussein Obama.

  695. BTW I am Barack Hussein Obama.

    Ohhhh I sure am bitter now!

  696. Here, I’ll bold it for you.

    Nice try. “Antipathy toward people who aren’t like them” and “anti-immigrant sentiment” are both mentioned in Obama’s statement. I don’t see your justification for having the second one swallow up the first, especially since the first is a much broader “experience induced resentment”.

  697. “American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one’s identity and personal agendas independently of the state.”

    When it comes to “elitism,” some Reasonoids take the cake.

    For Hillary to make the case that Obama is elitist… give me a break!

    Ruthless

  698. Neil | April 13, 2008, 8:10pm | #
    Better a maverick conservative with centrist leanings than an extreme liberal Democrat like B. Hussein Obama.

    Maybe so, maybe not. Either way, you gain nothing.

  699. Also, “anti-immigrant sentiment” gets paraphrased into a position on immigration; being anti-immigrant is quite different from being anti-immigration.

  700. Chris,

    You said “he speaks about them in the same terms that he spoke about the pastor of the church that meant so much to him.”

    Yes, I did. Watch the speech. He denounces Wright’s statements, and a whole field of his opinions, pretty harshly. And yet, he doesn’t denounce him as a bigot or reject him as a person. That’s the point.

    I explained why it was possible for him to call out his grandmother’s and Wright’s attitudes without calling them bigots, but not possible in the case of Pennsylvanians. Yes, you did, by pointing out the difference between saying that about individuals you know, and saying it about “whole groups.”

    I then responded by mentioning that Obama DID discuss a “group” – black men of previous generations, like Rev. Wright – and that he did EXACTLY THE SAME THING. He hated the sin and loved the sinner.

    Also, “anti-immigrant sentiment” gets paraphrased into a position on immigration; being anti-immigrant is quite different from being anti-immigration. If it came across that way, then I didn’t express myself clearly. We are in agreement about this – he was talking both about racism, and about the xenophobic response to immigrants in particular. Absolutely, I wasn’t trying to hide that.

    Obama was making the point that the shrinking of opportunity and economic hard times facing people in the midwest has caused people to look for scapegoats. It’s caused them to blame immigrants, minorities, liberals, atheists, people who aren’t like them – and, as Ayn Randian pointed out, “trade.”

    Chris, do you actually wish to dispute that economic angst in de-industrializing communities leads to a “they trk ur jrbs” response from the locals? One that points the finger at “people not like them?” I think history makes it pretty clear that that is exactly what it does. I didn’t think this was controversial.

  701. He denounces Wright’s statements, and a whole field of his opinions, pretty harshly. And yet, he doesn’t denounce him as a bigot or reject him as a person. That’s the point.

    So why the need for secrecy? Why didn’t he say this in Pennsylvania?

    I fully expect you to continue not answering this question, because there’s only one answer that makes sense: He thought Pennsylvanians would take it as an insult. And that answer reveals Obama’s true colors — just another craven politician who cares more about getting votes than he cares about the truth.

  702. he was talking both about racism, and about the xenophobic response to immigrants in particular. Absolutely, I wasn’t trying to hide that.

    Ha. You weren’t trying to hide it, but somehow the main topic I was on about completely vanished from the paraphrase. I’m totally going to talk about your experience-induced resentments behind your back to my right wing buddies now.

  703. Better a maverick conservative with centrist leanings than an extreme liberal Democrat like B. Hussein Obama.

    Hey, here’s a thought: if you vote your conscience and beliefs instead of voting based on your gag-reflex for the other team, we could end up with neither choice!

    WIN!

  704. Chris, do you actually wish to dispute that economic angst in de-industrializing communities leads to a “they trk ur jrbs” response from the locals? One that points the finger at “people not like them?”

    Perhaps some…but certainly not all. At the very least, Obama is painting with a broad brush here. I know if he’d said this about upstate NY, he’d probably be right about some of the population; but that wouldn’t stop me from being hopping mad about it, because I know it’s not true of me.

    Moreover, his opinion that enthusiasm for gun rights and religion arises from economic stagnation is condescending in the extreme. Again, the fact that he has the sense not to say such things to the people he’s talking about shows that he himself considers it insulting.

  705. This is what you’re complaint comes down to, Chris?

    That, while stumping in Pennsylvania, Obama didn’t take time out to chastise his audience?

    Um.

    OK.

    Maybe he should have been more like…uh…you know…that magical Wonderfulness Fairy who runs for office on Rainbow Puppy Island.

    You know what? That’s fine. He is, of course, a politician trying to win an election, and yup, he actually is more interested in saying things that appeal to voters than in being John the Fucking Baptist.

    But he didn’t call anyone a bigot, he didn’t show contempt for small-town America, and he certainly did not make an “explicit statement that rural Pennsylvanians are racist, homophobic bible-thumpers.”

  706. He is, of course, a politician trying to win an election, and yup, he actually is more interested in saying things that appeal to voters than in being John the Fucking Baptist.

    at least that’s an honest assessment. You wouldn’t know it, though, hearing most Obama supporters.

    but joe, I thought he was supposed to be so-very Different.

  707. Hey, folks, pop quiz:

    Who said this?

    The reason George Bush’s tactic works so well now is that you have all these economically insecure white people who are scared to death.”

    If you answered “Bill Clinton in 1991” you’d be correct!

  708. Hey, here’s a thought: if you vote your conscience and beliefs instead of voting based on your gag-reflex for the other team, we could end up with neither choice!

    A bot has no conscience.

  709. Cesar- You read the Huffpost? I saw that earlier, too.

  710. Moreover, his opinion that enthusiasm for gun rights and religion arises from economic stagnation,,,?

    That’s not true. That’s not what he said. Let’s go to the tape:

    So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. They take refuge in their faith and their community, and their family, and the things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington.

    He’s not saying that people’s faith, communities, enthusiasm for hunting, or families come about as a response to economic stagnation.

    He’s saying that people choose to make their political lives revolve around these “things they can count on” when they don’t feel that politics can help them with the larger issues confronting them, like economic circumstances.

    He’s not saying that economic circumstances make people go to church, but that the lack of political payoff from focusing on real issues leads people to vote for the guy who talks a lot about Jesus and teh gays.

    I mean, this is a guy who is seriously committed to his church.

  711. Yeah, I do.

    (Disclaimer: I also read RedState.com, so no I don’t endorse their political views).

  712. Cesar- Me (n)either. But I do not read RedState.com. MichelleMalkin.com is where I go.

  713. joe,

    So your problem with Bush saying “Saddam was seeking WMDs in Niger” was just that he didn’t say “not” before “seeking”? That seems like a trifle, doesn’t it?

    There are two alternative ways Obama could have avoided my criticism on this matter:

    1. Say that Pennsylvanians “cling to antipathy toward people not like themselves and anti-immigrant sentiment” both in public in Pennsylvania and in private in San Francisco.

    2. Don’t say that in either place.

    Option 2 is a lot less deleterious towards his electoral chances, but option 1 would be more fun. Regardless, either one would be OK with me.

  714. Ayn Randian,

    but joe, I thought he was supposed to be so-very Different.

    Well, he is different. We’re grading on a curve here.

    I mean, you certainly expressed some serious appreciation for the fact that he spoke to you like an intelligent person, and was straight with you, in his big speech.

    I’m sure you’ve had real people in your life who were even more straight with you, or who spoke to you even more like an intelligent person.

    We take what we can get, you know? We’re talking about people who walk up to strangers and talk about how wonderful they are, for a living. This one’s better than most. Quite a bit better, I’d say. But he’s still one of the guys with the shiny suits and the “How ya doin?”

  715. Ali – I know…I guess more misunderstanding on my part when I say that I don’t get the whole “well, it’s Obama or McCain! Take your pick!” I mean, that’s a false dichotomy of the highest order…at least two other parties have been running in the election for thirty years.

    It’s only ever D or R because people want it to be D or R.

  716. Geez, joe, I thought we were talking about what Obama said in SF, not the spinjob in Indiana. To coin a phrase, let’s go to the tape [SF version]:

    “So it’s not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

  717. FWIW Jim Webb also said almost the exact same thing (in public) in 2006, and no one seemed to care. You can call Webb a lot of things, but “liberal” and “elitist” don’t exactly come to mind.

  718. Red State? Malkin?

    Why would you do that to yourselves?

    If you want some intelligent, sane expression of the right’s ideas, the American Conservative started a blog. You know, Pat Buchanan’s mag.

  719. Joe, I read TAC regularly for pretty solid foreign policy analysis. Their immigrant baiting and protectionism gets old real fast, though.

  720. I mean, you certainly expressed some serious appreciation for the fact that he spoke to you like an intelligent person, and was straight with you, in his big speech.

    Even though he may well be (lovingly) mocking you in private with his diehard liberal friends. But in public, he treated you like an adult!

  721. let’s go to the tape [SF version]

    Those say exactly the same thing. All you’ve done is take it out of context, and pretend not to realize what he meant.

    Really, don’t do that. You’ve been arguing in a good faith, above-board manner so far.

  722. Aw, now I see your 9:01 comment.

    Tsk tsk.

    Oh, well. You were doing pretty good there. Actual ideas and fairness and everything. Sigh.

    Buh bye.

  723. Ayn_Randian- And I wonder why people love to have only two choices as opposed to more. I mean, what is it about the Canadians, or some Europeans that seem to have allowed for more than just two parties? It could possibly be just a historical mishap that people can’t seem to break free of. On the bright side, it is good to see that more and more people are becoming independents. Still, the sad thing is that there are people (e.g., Neil) who see this whole thing as nothing but my tribe versus your tribe. Stupid tribalism. Neil would fit very well with the tribalism of the Middle East, I’d say.

  724. Don’t you have any intellectual integrity?

    You actually are better than Neil. Why would you pretend not to be?

  725. Ali until we do away with first-past-the-post plurality voting on one hand, and the electoral college on the other, its going to be a two-party system.

    Even if a third party DOES breakout, it will quickly become the second major party while the old second major party goes extinct.

  726. Red State? Malkin?

    Why would you do that to yourselves?

    For (heart) health reasons. Reading Malkin is a good way to raise your blood pressure if you suffer from a low pressure.

  727. Ali until we do away with first-past-the-post plurality voting on one hand, and the electoral college on the other, its going to be a two-party system.

    Even if a third party DOES breakout, it will quickly become the second major party while the old second major party goes extinct.

    Ditto.

  728. Those say exactly the same thing.

    Huh? They don’t say the same thing at all. Similar to your paraphrase, the Indiana statement totally drops the racism aspect of the SF statement. What a coincidence! Other parts are modified as well.

  729. Joe I’m not going to go as far as Neil (mostly because I’m not a disingenuous partisan hack who listens to Joe Scarborough too much), but this controversy will hurt Obama. Democrats *do* have an image problem in red states, one they haven’t managed to fix on the federal level since 1980.

    I think if a Democratic governor of a red state (Schweitzer, Warner, etc) were the nominee apparent right now, they’d be kicking McCain’s ass in the polls rather than be tied for that very reason. Because they’ve managed to get around the Democrat’s image problem on the state level, and would do it on the national level as well.

  730. Another area where 3rd parties could start to flourish is state legislators (one reason I wish the 17th amendment be repealed, which will never happen). In Vermont, for example, socialists would have their chance, presumably libertarians in AZ, NH, NV, etc etc.

  731. Maybe, Chris, instead of going to fucking Powerline, reading the section they quoted, reading their spin on it, and deciding you know what you’re talking about, you should go to the source.

    But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    Exactly the same fucking statement.

  732. joe,

    I’m better than Neil? Thanks!

    You’re also better than Obama, because you actually told me that I’m arguing dishonestly rather than being nice to me and then going behind my back and saying I’m a dishonest arguer.

  733. “Independents” aren’t always that great Ali. A lot of them are like Joe Lieberman–the worst of both worlds.

    Gun control, censorship of popular culture, tax hikes, socialized health care, AND more wars/torture! YEAH!

  734. I get the Objecto-Sense that if our President weren’t both simultaneously our Head of State and “Head” of Government, we’d see a lot less of the two parties scrambling for the diminished bully pulpit and we’d be more focused on the legislature. That (I sense) would help alternative parties more.

  735. joe, Chris…umm, I hate to ask this, but what exactly are you guys arguing about?

  736. Again, where is the “antipathy toward people who aren’t like them” in the Indiana statement? The preceding sentences do nothing to modify Obama’s claim that Pennsylvanians hold racist/homophobic views; perhaps it explains his opinion that those views are a result of economic hardship, but it doesn’t change the insulting part.

    Again, the fact that he considered it unfit to be included in the damage control Indiana quote seems to indicate he thinks it would be insulting.

  737. Cesar- Their increased numbers is an indicator that people are fed up with the existing parties. In that sense, their increased numbers is a good thing, regardless of what they exactly advocate.

  738. Cesar,

    It could hurt Obama, but the Wright issue could have hurt him, too. Democrats, especially black Democrats, have an image problem in that area, too. And yet, he went higher in the polls after that hit than before. Obama isn’t just a punching bag. He can duck, and he can hit back, in a way that neither Kerry nor Gore could.

    I’m not claiming that there is nothing to worry about here. I’m saying that it is foolish to assume that this particular mole-hill must necessarily become a mountain. This is about 1/50th and dangerous as the Wright issue.

    I think if a Democratic governor of a red state (Schweitzer, Warner, etc) were the nominee apparent right now, they’d be kicking McCain’s ass in the polls rather than be tied for that very reason. See, I think any candidate who is still fighting Hillary Clinton in the primary is going to drop against a candidate who has pivoted into general election mode. When the playing field was level – when McCain was in his own primary mode – Obama was consistently beating him by 10 points.

  739. I have to admit, I lol’d at this (in a real sense, not in the Neil sense) response Obama had to Clinton’s newfound love for guns and God.

    After reiterating his regret for his choice of words, Obama turned the tables on Clinton – mocking, among other things, her sudden fealty to the rights of gun owners.

    “She is running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsman, how she values the second amendment. She’s talking like she’s Annie Oakley,” Obama said, invoking the famed female sharpshooter immortalized in the musical “Anne Get Your Gun.”

    Obama continued, saying “Hillary Clinton is out there like she’s on the duck blind every Sunday. She’s packing a six-shooter. Come on, she knows better. That’s some politics being played by Hillary Clinton.”

    I highlighted my favorite part.

  740. A_R, we’re arguing about the topic of the thread. What are you guys arguing about?

  741. Another area where 3rd parties could start to flourish is state legislators (one reason I wish the 17th amendment be repealed, which will never happen). In Vermont, for example, socialists would have their chance, presumably libertarians in AZ, NH, NV, etc etc.

    I agree with you about the 17th. Democracy needs to be damped and state legislatures electing senators was one way to do that.

  742. oh, well, I’m not trying to raise myself up as some kind of Organian or something, but do either of you think you’re going to convince the other?

    What are the facts that are in dispute, exactly?

  743. Ayn Randian,

    I think Chris is reading a great deal of import into the fact that Obama made a reference to “people who aren’t like them” in one of the statements an not the other.

    I don’t know why.

    Again, the fact that he considered it unfit to be included in the damage control Indiana quote seems to indicate he thinks it would be insulting.

    It’s as if the clear reference to xenophobia is ok, but zomg he might have been referring to prejudice in general!!! Hey, buddy, damn straight I don’t like the Mexicans, but that’s got NOTHING to do with the fact that they’re different from me, and don’t you forget it!

    Um, ok. Whatever.

  744. I also would like to see the 17th go. We need representation for the state GOVERNMENTS as well as the people in the states at the federal level. That way we won’t get stupid stuff like unfunded mandates and extensive burdens placed on state governments.

    It would put some of the “federal” back in our federal republic.

  745. I’m saying that it is foolish to assume that this particular mole-hill must necessarily become a mountain.

    If this is a molehill, Trent Lott’s Birthdaygate “scandal” was a pile of ant droppings. Really, joe, you have to watch the video of the whole birthday party to get the quote in proper context…but I’m guessing you didn’t.

  746. Lieberman reminds of a villain from an R L Stine horror novel for kids in both
    his physical and personal demeanor.

  747. Who gives a shit about Trent Lott?

    In anything but a hey look over there sense?

    And, smartass, I actually did read the entirety of the transcript of the Lott remarks. They don’t help.

  748. Ever been to western Pennsylvania?

    Believe it or not, there actually are people out there who don’t like people who aren’t like them.

    ZOMG, Barack Obama thinks that there are racists in Pennsylvania. That BASTARD.

  749. What are the facts that are in dispute, exactly?

    joe argues that the Indiana quote is essentially the same thing he was saying in SF. I argue that the IN quote was a hastily compiled gloss to minimize offense to PA/IN voters, as evidenced by “anti-immigrant” becoming “immigration” and the accusation of racism being dropped entirely.

    joe argues that PA/IN voters should be happy to be spoken of in the same terms Obama used for his bigoted pastor and grandmother. I argue otherwise.

    Those are two representative disputes. Care to join?

  750. Alan-

    That was great. Of course, people in their mid to late 20s have a special animosity towards Liebertool since he did everything in his power to ruin movies, music, and video games for that generation.

  751. joe,

    I now live in Western PA…and there are racists in Boston too. What would you think of someone saying that Bostonians “cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like them”?

  752. For joe, I’ll say this: an honest assessment of the flaws of people can come across as condescension. Obama should make the same statements to the people about whom he is speaking.

    For Chris: I don’t think joe said they should be happy about it, just that’s how Obama talks. It could be viewed as condescension OR refreshing honesty about certain social and political phenomena.

    So in short, uhh…no, I’m good on getting involved πŸ˜€

  753. joe,

    I give a shit about Trent Lott, because he lost his position as Majority Leader for a quote that had far more plausible alternative explanations than Obama’s; yet you refused to consider any of those alternative explanations, preferring to label him a racist based on a 100th birthday compliment to a dying old man.

  754. I really wonder, where were the American people in the period from 1910 to 1914?

  755. Ali I’m still trying to figure out where they were from September, 2001 to August, 2005.

  756. I don’t think joe said they should be happy about it, just that’s how Obama talks.

    That should be great for the “diplomatic surge”. Wait till the Germans find out he told the French that Germans “cling to antipathy toward deodorant and anti-shower sentiment”.

  757. Cesar- That, too. I would say, though, from 12/02 or 1/03 (and not 9/2001) to 8/05.

  758. Of course there are racists in Boston, too. Didn’t you ever see the famous picture of the guy with the flat during the anti-busing protest?

    What kind of idiot would argue with the statement “There are racists in Boston?”

    And I’ll tell you something: race relations get worse whenever the economy gets in trouble. Damn straight that’s true in western Pennsylvania. It’s probably true eveywhere.

    What is this, you decide that this rather obvious observation about what happens about jobs – one you have made yourself on many an immigration thread, I might add – somehow becomes a universal condemnation of the people of western Pennsylvania? What are you, the Al Shaprton of Zelianople?

    far more plausible alternative explanations than Obama’s I didn’t offer an alternative explanation of either man’s words. I offered and agreed with the obvious meaning of what they said.

    preferring to label him a racist based on a 100th birthday compliment to a dying old man I had Trent Lott labeled a panderer to racists, at best, years before that. Everybody did. Are you kidding me? The CCC?

    I didn’t judge some innocent guy because of what he said to an old man at a birthday party; that’s just the first time the general public noticed him acting like that.

  759. Not flat, flag.

    The white guy with the flag, hitting the black lawyer on city hall.

    “There are racists in Boston.” No shit, Sherlock. I can introduce you to some.

  760. So, we know how you feel about “there are racists in Boston.” But I was asking how do you feel about someone saying that Bostonians (not a few isolated individuals, but an entire community, as is the context of his SF remarks) “cling to antipathy towards people who aren’t like them”.

  761. The white guy with the flag, hitting the black lawyer on city hall.

    “There are racists in Boston.” No shit, Sherlock. I can introduce you to some.

    No kidding. Embarrassing baseball trivia follows.

    The Detroit Tigers were the next to last team in the major leagues to have a black player on the club. The Bosox were last. We can both be chargrined about that.

  762. To make it clear to whom “they” is referring in the disputed part of the quote, I’ve “emboldened” the “they”s and that to which they refer:

    And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    So, he’s saying that entire communities cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like them. He’s not talking about one or two racists over there, he’s making a blanket statement.

  763. Jay Severin and Michael Graham are living proof that racism exists in New England.

  764. J sub D – I disdain the notion of collective guilt, and not just because I’m a Sox fan.

    You should be more chagrined about the Tigers start this year. Ugh.

  765. J sub D – I disdain the notion of collective guilt, and not just because I’m a Sox fan.

    You should be more chagrined about the Tigers start this year. Ugh.

    Did I say anything about guilt? Certainly not. I was merely recounting a bit of history.

    Yeah, the Tigers are, so far, embarrassing. ‘Tis a long season though. Rarely are pennants won or lost in April.

  766. So, he’s saying that entire communities cling to antipathy toward people who aren’t like them.

    That is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It is something Neil would be proud of.

    Yah, d00d, he means every single person in small towns in the midwest does that. That is, clearly and indisputably, the reasonable interpretation of his remarks.

    Is it neither an implausible reach, nor a shoe-horn, nor an agonizingly close reading, nor the sort of thing someone writes at the end of an argument. No, when he comes out with that list, he’s talking about “entire communities” clinging to antipathy.

    Totally.

  767. Chris – what do you make of the “anti-trade sentiment” portion of the statement?

    I guess I should ask joe the same thing: Why mention that, especially in light of the NAFTA/Ohio shtick?

  768. J sub D OTOH,

    The Los Angeles Rams became the first NFL team to integrate when they hired black veterans Kenny Washington and Woody Strode the same year. The New York Giants and the Detroit Lions were the only other NFL teams to welcome black players during the 1940s…

    As opposed to my team:

    Several NFL teams stood out for their racist beliefs, including the Washington Redskins, the last professional football team to integrate, signing Bobby Mitchell in 1962.

  769. Ayn Randian,

    It’s a dirty little secret that the fundamentalists wouldn’t want to admit, but Obama and Clinton are both pretty centrist on trade. Their little ballet though the upper midwest is an effort to finesse the issue to a population that is well to their left* on international trade deals.

    Obama tries to put the narrative about economic dislocation in the industrial midwest into the service of a different set of policies from, say, the guys at the Legion hall. So, he finesses it. He never blatantly promises to bring back jobs like Romney did in Michigan, or really get into protectionist rhetoric. Instead, he ptiches them on mainstream, Washington-consensus-approved tweaks like labor agreements, and feels their pain, and pitches health care and stuff.

    Of course, we’ll now get several huffy comments that Obama is not a libertarian, darn it! Oh well.

    *Left is probably not the precise term, but it will have to do.

  770. Apparently, the old owner of the Red Sox, Tom Yawkey, as in Yawkey Way, was a pretty vile racist, who did not want to hire black players. There are stories about an incident of a fake try-out.

  771. No, when he comes out with that list, he’s talking about “entire communities” clinging to antipathy.

    So, who is he saying clings to antipathy, joe? It’s far less plausible that he’s just saying there’s a few isolated antipathy-clingers, since that could be said of anyplace, even prosperous regions. I’ll go with the plain meaning of his words until a plausible alternative is offered.

  772. It’s funny how, the more you get down to the policy details and nuts-and-bolts of campaigning, the Obama halo grows dimmer and dimmer until you see him as just another slimy politician.

  773. As far as the issue of Obama being elitist. I think it is his fortune that it has played out this early in the campaign. He will learn from it, and be more careful to balance his insightful nature with what can appear to be condescension in the rest of the campaign.

  774. Condescension is when you speak to someone like they’re inferior to you. This isn’t condescension.

    He spoke to other liberals, in private, about how Pennsylvanians were inferior to them. That’s worse than condescension…and the ridiculousness of the cover story offered in Indiana today puts to lie Ayn_Randian’s and joe’s belief that Obama respects voters’ intelligence.

  775. MK2
    The Republican base is stupid.
    Party of the People.

    The democratic base is smart, cosmopolitcan (sic) , and scientifically literate. It’s concentrated in academia and the entertainment industry, where brains are an asset.
    Party of elitists. Billionaire Soros, for example

  776. It’s just undeniable that on balance Democratic voters are smarter. sizable majorities in academia, the arts and culture indetify as Democrats. Jews, the most successful ethnic community in America, vote overwhelmingly for Democrats and are major contributors to Democratic campaigns.
    The Republican constituency is overwhelmingly fundamentalist Christian–people who believe the Earth is 5,000 years old. What Democrat would ever consider speaking at Bob Jones University? Among the Catholic working class, only fanatical single-issues anti-abortionists who kow-tow to the Vatican have remained loyal Republicans. Intelligent, independent-minded Catholics increasingly vote Democratic. Rush Limbaugh counts as a right-wing intellectual. Who on the liberal left doesn’t justifiably feel superior? It isn’t elitism; it’s reality.

  777. No politician really fully respects the voters’ intelligence.

    As for elitism:

    Some people who think they’re better than others are wrong.

    But all people who think they aren’t better than others are right.

    That is, after 8 years of Ivy League well-born mutli-millionaire ‘populism’, I’m perfectly happy with some straight up elitism for a change.

    I mean, the Founder’s were elitists, and it’s a damn good thing they were.

  778. Chris,

    I understand the point you are making. I’m interpreting the matter a bit differently because I have read what Obama has said about his own mother. It has much of the same air about it as what he said about Pennsylvanians.

    It is Obama’s nature processes things with a sense of detachment, and I believe that is where he gets into this kind of trouble. He is not a natural politician the way Bill Clinton use to be, and his supporters want to believe him to be. Obama’s mental disposition is more suited in temperament to a professor than a politician.

    Obama is aloof. But where the narrative about all of this fails is the fact Obama is not a bad guy. Not at all. He isn’t aloof in the sense of Cheney aloofness.

  779. Stupid people love simple, easily packaged answers to complex problems. This need for simplicity explains the appeal of right-wing ideology. Right-wingers have a few simple formulas that easily fit into handy slogans. Thinking is difficult, especially for the dim witted. Alas, the dim witted often manage to elect one of their own, witness George W. We of the left must sometimes take refuge in our rich intellectual lives and let the dumb masses stew in thier own juices.

  780. Time for the evening prayer.

    Hail Market,
    Full of grace,
    Prosperity is with thee.
    Blessed art thou among systems,
    and blessed is the fruit
    of thy womb, Capital.
    Holy Market,
    Mother of Goods,
    pray for us consumers now,
    and at the hour of our bankruptcy.
    Amen.

    Goodnight to all the Libertarian faithful.

  781. “It’s just undeniable that on balance Democratic voters are smarter.”

    I don’t think I’ve ever typed LOL (except ironically), but I literally did LOL reading this. It’s just baffling that someone can be so completely unaware of their ideological biases as MK2 is.

    “sizable majorities in academia, the arts and culture indetify as Democrats.”

    I wonder if there could _possibly_ be some reason these groups tend to support Democrats. Perhaps a somewhat self-interested reason that has nothing to do with the inherent intellectual superiority of Democrats. Perhaps a reason involving money. If you honestly believe this implies that Democrats are smarter, you’re far stupider than the fundies you love to mock. (And I say this as an academic and a liberalish libertarian, that is one for whom social issues are generally somewhat more important than economic ones.)

    “The Republican constituency is overwhelmingly fundamentalist Christian.”

    Another blatant lie. You’re good at those. There aren’t even enough fundamentalist Christians in the country for the Republican constituency to be overwhelmingly fundie.

    “Among the Catholic working class, only fanatical single-issues anti-abortionists who kow-tow to the Vatican have remained loyal Republicans. Intelligent, independent-minded Catholics increasingly vote Democratic.”

    That’s weird, I could have sworn that members of my highly educated, pro-choice (at least from a legal standpoint) Catholic family frequently vote Republican and remain doggedly independent, as do many of their congregations. But MK2 has such a reliable record of honesty and accuracy in his blanket statements…I’m so confused….

    “Rush Limbaugh counts as a right-wing intellectual.”

    Yes, and Michael Moore counts as a left-wing intellectual. Of course there are intelligent intellectuals on each side, but why be honest about that when you can score some points by poking at the tubby party hacks?

    “It isn’t elitism; it’s reality.”

    Only in the very special world of MK2, where any amount of lying, intellectual dishonesty, and self-delusional are perfectly acceptable as long as they’re aimed at the big, bad GOP.

    You truly are a waste of brain matter, MK2. You’re as bad as Neil – superficially more clever, certainly a better speller and typist, but just as intellectually and morally stunted by your glaring ideological biases.

  782. “Stupid people love simple, easily packaged answers to complex problems.”

    So do ostensibly smart people who find it ideologically expedient to act stupid. The sort of people who like to pretend that Rush Limbaugh is a representative conservative intellectual. The sort of people whose every comment betrays a breathtakingly blatant confirmation bias in their political views. The Neils and MK2s and Donderos and M1EKs – sort of the intellectual detritus of the blogosphere.

  783. Do us a favor, MK2, switch teams.

  784. I did find this interesting:

    “So it’s not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to…anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    So did I. Very interesting. It is likely that Barry isn’t so protectionist after all and he has been pandering all this time. As a free-trader, I hope so, but that’s gotta hurt his credibility with his mouth-breathing protectionist supporters.

  785. So, who is he saying clings to antipathy, joe?

    Some people. Some people “cling to” religion. (I think that was poor phrasing, btw.) Some, anti-immigrant sentiment. Some, anti-trade-deal sentiment.

    So do ostensibly smart people who find it ideologically expedient to act stupid.

    That’s a good point, Sparky. There is also the matter of very smart people who get flattered into accepting stupid things, and convince themselves they’ve arrived at a brilliant insight through their own intelligence. See, Ben Stein pimping for the Intelligent Design movement, global warming deniers, Lisa Simpson being pitched by the monorail salesman, or way too many physics and literature professors who turned red during the 20th century.

  786. I’ll play devils’ advocate and defend Obama on this point:

    What Obama is saying basically describes American politics from 1964 to today: White, middle-class resentment. This is where the whole term MAR (Middle American Radicals) springs from. And it’s a resentment born of then sense that people who live in small towns, mid-sized factory towns (like the one I grew up in, Beloit, Wisconsin) and urban ethnic neighborhoods have no control over their lives and are at the mercy of trends both economic, cultural and political.

    I hate to break the news to everyone, but politics in the U.S. in this day and age is about stoking fears and resentments. Both sides do it. Anyone who believes (as many neocons apparently do) that politics is this grand clash of ideas is foolish and stupid because as we have seen both parties believe in a grand consensus of free trade, foreign interventionism and big governments. Anyone who questions this consensus (like Ron Paul and Mike Gravel for example) is regarded as a loony not to be taken seriously. So politics is not about ideas, it’s about using fear and resentment to motivate different blocs of voters to vote for the candidates that only winds up hurting their interests in the end. Dr. Thomas Fleming said as much in his Chronicles column a few months back. Fear and resentment are very powerful motivators. Obama basically said what political consultants already know. We just don’t like to hear it.

    Could he have worded it better? Perhaps. But I’m sure we know of or are folk who “cling” to their Bibles as hard as they can because we have faith and when Charlton Heston (RIP) says “you can take my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers” you can bet he’s clinging to it pretty hard. To “cling” means to hold on tight and I’m sure we either are or know people who hold fast to their guns and Bibles.

    And why do they? Because in many cases, it’s all they’ve got. And such persons have every right to be bitter. Bitter about seeing their jobs go to Mexico. Bitter about seeing their kids bused from their neighborhood schools to ones across town. Bitter about seeing their values mocked in the wider culture. Bitter about being lied to about the benefits of NAFTA or the Iraq war and the supposed $1.00 a gallon gas we told we would be paying. Bitter about seeing THEIR kids go to war and die while the elites stay in the club box cheering them on. Bitter about seeing their towns socially engineered with the influx of immigrants without any kind of discussion as to whether this a good idea or not. Bitter about being let down by both the Democrats and Republicans, who supposedly talk good games on the issues they care about but in the end do nothing to help despite such empty promises.

    Why else would Hilary Clinton repudiate the one concrete accomplishment of her husband’s Administration, the passage of NAFTA through Congress, unless she knew that bitterness existed? Shouldn’t she be celebrtating NAFTA’s benefits? She knows full damn well if she did that in Pennsylvania and Ohio they’d run her out of town on a rail. So she’ll down a boilermaker and pretend she’s one of the guys, this gal born of the upscale Chicago suburbs, a former Goldwater Girl and Wellsley and Yale Law School graduate. Yes, she truly is the salt of the earth. And of course there’s man-of-the people John McCain, the son and grandson of Admirals who was born on a tropical estate in the Canal Zone and who once told a South Carolina textile worker concerned about keeping his job and I quote “I didn’t know you’re biggest ambition in life is to work in the mill.” How is this any less condescending that what Obama said?

    I said the same thing on my post about MARs: MARs fear. And they have good reason to fear, because they don’t know what blow is coming next. What they want more than anything is some sort of stability, so they don’t have to worry if they’re going to be out of work, or if their gun will be confiscated or they can’t pray even in their own churches. Maybe such fears seem irrational, but given the amount of cultural, economic and political changes over the past 45 years that has buffeted such communities, such fears can’t be discounted. The political consultants and politicians and exploit those fears every election cycle, because they know they exists and they know they can exploit them.

    So Obama clumsly said what everyone knows to be true but doesn’t want to admit because that would spoil some sort of twisted image of Heartland America being a happy place of pure American values and virtues instead of pockets of seething bitterness. Yes the former can be true but the latter as just as true and if it wasn’t then the populist movement, the KKK, the religious right, the Prohibition movement, the veterans movement after World War II, Harlan County, Kentucky, labor strife, Gordon Kahl and the Posse Comitatus, Tim McVeigh, Oklahoma City and militia movement, the George Wallace, Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan and David Duke camapaigns, none of these things would have happened.

    It’s good in a way that the primaries in Pennsylvania and Ohio and focused on the problems of America’s industrial heartland but those persons covering it have done so in their usual ham-handed and clumsly way, like they were commenting on the antics of an animal exhibit at the zoo. It’s hard for elites in the MSM to truly understand American’s small towns and rural areas because they don’t live there. They don’t know people there. Perhaps a few of them grew up in such places but they decided that working in the mill or on the farm or at the convience store or the auto garage wasn’t for them so they moved out and upwards to Ivy League educations and posh East Side apartments or Georgetown town homes. Maybe its true that Obama, like Daniel Larison said in his blog Eunomia, sees himself as sort of amabassador for MARs to the elites to try an explain why they vote the way they do. But I’ll at least give Obama credit for being more perceptive about American politics than a thousand brain dead political reporters have been.

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