Bin Laden Denounces "Pope of the Vatican," Has No Comment on Pope of Greenwich Village

There's a new tape out (or maybe it's old) from Osama bin Laden (or maybe it's someone else). Transcript here. The big news, if there is any news, is that bin Laden believes those Muhammad cartoons -- remember them? they were a big deal in 2005 -- "came in the framework of a new Crusade in which the Pope of the Vatican has played a large, lengthy role." This is presumably a reference to Benedict XVI's controversial remarks about Islam, which were a big deal in 2006. CIA experts say this new evidence will help them determine when exactly bin Laden's tape recorder ran out of batteries.

Comments

[sixstring]

Murder rap? Nobody came within twenty feet of that yo-yo. He dived into that hole like a fucking gopher!

[Pro Libertate]

Ahem. Crusade? Does Mr. bin Laden appreciate the sheer destructive force of the West at this time? If Europe and the United States wanted to launch a crusade, the Middle East would be a giant theme park under our control. Let's not forget that despite our difficulties in the occupation of Iraq, we are refraining from using many means that "crusading" armies would not refrain from using. Cartoons! Ten thousand years of cartoons would hurt Islam how? But him getting the non-Islamic world totally annoyed with Muslims, even the innocent, peaceful ones--well, what does that do for the religion?

This guy pisses me off to no end.

[ClubMedSux]

I'm just relieved he didn't denounce the Pope of Chili Town.

[Lamar]

Good thing he doesn't know about the pope in my pants.

[brotherben]

the red hot chili popers

[bill]

Isn't the Pope against all non-Catholic religions? Hasn't Bin Laden ever heard of the Inquisition?

[mediageek]

New Bin Laden tape?!

BRB, 2 min. hate.

[Randolph Carter]

Man Osama's really just going through the motions. Maybe he needs to do a musical episode.

[cgee]

They took my thumb, Charlie!

[Inigo Montoya]

M. bin Laden:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[The Winter Soldier]

Osama needs to get laid . . . By a woman, this time, not a goat.

[Episiarch]

Bin Laden is just pissed because Charlie and Paulie slipped him enough laxative to loosen up a horse. PRANKD

[John]

I think Bin Ladin is dead. Think about it, were he alive and well, why wouldn't he be making videotapes of himself holding yesterday's New York Times and taunting the evil infidels for their failure to capture him? His still being alive is a great propeganda coup for Al Quada. Here is a guy who stuck a finger in the eye of the great Satan and lived to tell about it. Yet, Al Quada only manages to release a few legacy tapes that could have been made at any time and no real pictures of the guy in years. I think he died sometime time a go.

[some guy]

Can I get that as a ringtone?

[Guy Montag]

You can't do that man. I mean you don't abuse 'em once in a while they'll shit all over you. I don't mean you walk around morning to night whackin' 'em upside the head like someone from the other side but you terrorize 'em once in a while just to keep 'em in line. Know what I mean?

(now I forgot that noise Paulie made when he was whacking the heavy bag as if it were Darryl Hannah's butt)

[R C Dean]

Jeebus, that's all he's got? The Pope and some cartoons.

I think we won, then.

[Pinette]

WTF kind of fucked up reasoning is required to conclude that an insult (cartoons) is a more serious offense than murder?

[Calidore]

How much credibility does bin Laden have in the Muslim world these days?

[Guy Montag]

Jeebus, that's all he's got? The Pope and some cartoons.

I think we won, then.

Cool, more troops for Iraq!

[Episiarch]

John, he may not be dead, but properly paranoid about how much the CIA wants to find him. The amount of resources they are capable of bringing to bear on this search are staggering. If he were to post a video from a cave, I guarantee you the CIA brings in geologists and ask where in the world that type of rock might be; they analyze the tape, where it was made, follow the sales trail; and on and on and on.

This hasn't enabled them to find him yet (we all know how efficient government is), but if he makes one small mistake that gives them a relative clue as to where he is, he is fucked.

[Shannon Love]

I think that more people should read Bin Laden's entire body of work (if that's the right term).

To many people seem to operate under the assumption that Bin Laden and others like him are "rational actors" as Westerners would define the term. The believe that he holds the same general world view and the same basic models of causation as an educated Westerner.

He doesn't. His entire world model is substantially different. He believes that all human events, indeed all human history, revolve around the struggle of muslims to implement God's will on earth. He believes that that events that we believe have nothing to do with Islam, say the French and Indian war, are ultimately driven by the desire by infidels to thwart Muslims in their sacred mission.

In this world view it make perfect sense that the Danish cartoons are part of wider plot because, basically, everything is part of a wider plot. The Pope doesn't exist to lead Catholics in their faith, he exist to wage war on Islam (an Bin Laden's form of Islam specifically).

This type of world view narcissism is common among despots and totalitarian ideologies. Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc all viewed the world as revolving around them and all events as having significance to them.

This type of world view makes finding common ground with those who hold it almost impossible.

[Episiarch]

Will bin Laden be in the new Indiana Jones movie? You know, Indy could run into him at a book burning or something.

[Art-P.O.G.]

I can't believe nobody mentioned the Space Pope.

[TrickyVic]

cgee beat me to it.

My thumb Charlie, My thumb!

[Episiarch]

Is the Space Pope reptilian?

[Adamness]

Hm, I'm starting to think this Bin Laden fellow is some sort of wacko.

[Paul]

etc all viewed the world as revolving around them and all events as having significance to them.

Hmm, I had a girlfriend that used to be the same way...

[Pro Libertate]

Paul,

You dated Osama bin Laden? And he's a girl?

[Calidore]

Shannon Love,

Just because Stalin was paranoid - and he was - doesn't mean that he didn't have some reason to be. Though his reasons were as much the result of his own actions as anything.

The classical world discussed these matters in some detail (e.g., Plato, Xenophon, etc.).

[GG]

Someone should congratulate him for achieving at least one of his goals. Well, I suppose it was a joint effort so we have to give GWB at least half the credit.

And I don't know what he's using to darken his beard but he looks 15 years younger than he did in '04! Osama you vain midlifer you, on your next video you simply have to tell us your secret. Henna or Grecian Formula?

[Mad Max]

"Isn't the Pope against all non-Catholic religions? Hasn't Bin Laden ever heard of the Inquisition?"

The Inquisition never had jurisdiction over the unbaptized.

By the way, I think we should acknowledge that Monty Python was wrong - the Inquisition has become totally predictable in any H&R thread mentioning the Catholic Church.

[Calidore]

Mad Max,

Non-Christians were dealt with by the secular courts (small comfort). Of course with regard to the Inquisition in the Americas one could argue whether many of those tried were actually Christians.

[Pro Libertate]

Huh. He doesn't look dead. Is it totally atavistic and uncivilized of me to ask why he isn't dead and/or in American custody? The guy pisses me off.

I had suggested the following for a libertarian presidential candidate, but since we're plum out of those, I give it to any candidate left in the race:

Offer the vice presidency to the first person to bring me the head of Osama bin Laden.

[green mamba]

I assume the Vatican has really, really tight security, but they might want to beef it up anyway.

[Mad Max]

Calidors,

I just assumed that, if H&R posters love discussing the Inquisition so much, they might want to know some actual history.

[Anonymous]

Come down off that fucking cross, Max.

[Calidore]

Mad Max,

The main problem was not the Inquisition per se (though its various incarnations were hardly enlightened affairs) but the various religious conflicts of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. Whatever terrors happened in the Inquisition (as well as Protestant and Catholic secular courts) were in many ways a side show in comparison to the death tolls created by the religious wars between the various confessional communities which took place during this time (e.g., the French Wars of Religion, the German counterpart to such, the English Civil War, etc.).

[Calidore]

Mad Max,

In other words, it was a period of social disturbance with all that entails for tolerance, liberty, etc.

[Gimme Back My Dog]

I had a girlfriend that used to be the same way

Only one? You need to get out more.

[Mad Max]

I'm seeing a lot of posts which would have been understandable (perhaps) in the early or mid eighteenth century.

ECRASEZ LINFAMME: "OMG, look at all the crimes committed by Christians! Obviously Christianity is to blame - I can't wait until Europe has renounced its Christian heritage; then we'll have an era of peace, tolerance and reason."

DIDEROTIOT: "Yeah, Ecrasez, wouldn't that be neat? Hey, have you heard of the new Queen of France, that Austrian, Marie Antoinette?"

TPAINE: "Yeah, I hear she has a good head on her shoulders."

[Mad Max]

Here's a quote from that famous right-wing fundamentalist William Ellery Channing, one of the founders of the Unitarian movement - you know, the people who think the Episcopelians are too conservative.

"To those who are fond of exaggerating the wars and persecutions, which Christianity has kindled, we would say, go and witness the blessings of infidel philosophy, where it has been permitted to triumph! Behold the heart hardened into stone, and all tender feelings of our nature giving place to the ferocity of beasts of prey. Behold murder, and perfidy, and rapine let loose, and scattering ruin and dismay. Behold the best blood flowing in torrents, and observe the secret tears of the widow and fatherless, who dare not utter the anguish which consumes them! God has given to all nations an awful monument to the nature and influence of infidel philosophies, and I trust he has not admonished in vain."

Two Sermons on Infidelity delivered October 24, 1813," in William Ellery Channing, People's Edition of the Entire Works of W. E. Channing, D. D., Volume II. London: Simms and M'Intire, 1851, pp. 536-552, at 537.

[J sub D]

The Inquisition never had jurisdiction over the unbaptized.

They didn't torture and kill Jews? If you don't mind, I'd like a little more than a blog comment to back that up.

[Mad Max]

jsd,

Baptised Catholics of Jewish descent were often accused by the Spanish Inquisition of being "Judaisers" - that is, of following Judsiam when they were supposed to be Catholics. Because of the Inquisition's loose evidentiary standards, it is very likely that numerous innocent Catholics were falsely condemned.

For a source, consult Benzion Netanyahu, *Origins of the Inquisition,* reviewed by yours truly at

http://www99.epinions.com/content_62582591108

[Mad Max]

That's probably the (tragic) history you're thinking of. The victims of the Spanish Inquisition tended to be Catholics, not Jews, unless you commit an anacronism and count "cultural Jews" who rejected the religion of Judaism.

The Roman Inquisition, while not perfect, had more respect for due process than its Spanish counterpart. This is because the Spanish Inquisition was in practice an agent of the Spanish Crown, and the Popes thought they were too weak to refuse the demands of the Spanish rulers for a *de facto* royally-dominated Inquisition in their own country.

[BakedPenguin]

Mad Max - I'm gonna draw some cartoons of the pope. You don't like it, go make a video...

[Travis]

The inquisition in France and Spain was mainly about wiping out the Cathar Christians and what was let of the Spanish Muslims.
It worked really well there are no there are no Cathar Christians now.

[Mad Max]

Travis,

The Cathars actually held the views which hip secularists foolishly attribute to the Catholic Church - the material world is evil, forget about your body and focus on your pure spiritual being, blah blah.

[Mad Max]

"It worked really well there are no there are no Cathar Christians now."

You're welcome!

[Travis]

Mad Max,

So it's okay to massacre people because they believe in a stupid theology?

[joshua corning]

Who cares what the pope thinks about Islam...after his big shift left with his 7 social sins i have written the guy off as another comrade in red.

Can we get a new pope already this one is broken.

[Paul]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

[Brian Courts]

The Roman Inquisition, while not perfect, had more respect for due process than its Spanish counterpart.

Which I'm sure was a comforting thought as you were burning at the stake. Talk about damning with faint praise.

"Roman Inquisition, while not perfect..."

Heh. Quite a bold admission there.

White Star Line Titanic's maiden voyage, while not perfect, was much more luxurious than its Cunard Line counterparts.

[Travis]

I think Bin Laden has a Man crush on the Pope.

[Travis]

I would like to be the first to wish Bin Laden a happy Easter.

[Mad Max]

"So it's okay to massacre people because they believe in a stupid theology?"

The Church hasn't been involved in the burning of Protestants for a long time, We leave that sort of thing to the ATF.

[Mad Max]

As to the Cathars, the Church feared that the Cathar movement would lead to the secession of what is now Southern France from Christendom. What do do about a secession threat? Ask Abraham Linconl.

Since there is no longer any Christendom to secede from (and what wonderful results the abolition of Christendom led to!), then of course the issue of using force to prevent secession does not arise.

[Mad Max]

Lincoln, not Linconl.

[Mad Max]

"do you do," not "do do."

I'll get the hang of this pesky Internet thing yet!

[Mad Max]

Paul,

You stole my joke:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125631.html#942814

[Mad Max]

"'Roman Inquisition, while not perfect...'

"Heh. Quite a bold admission there."

Acknowledging human imperfection and sinfulness is hardly a "bold admission" for a Catholic.

"White Star Line Titanic's maiden voyage, while not perfect, was much more luxurious than its Cunard Line counterparts."

As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is still around. In contrast, consider the fate of the following anti-Catholic movements and persons:

Order of the Star-Spangled Banner ("Know Nothing Party")

Ku Klux Klan

[Deleted in accordance with the requirements of Godwin's Law] Party

Communist Party of the USSR

The USSR

Otto Von Bismarck and his *Kulturkampf*

John Hagee's influence on the McCain campaign

etc.

[Warmongering Lunatic]

Actually, it is possibly worthwhile to specify "Pope of the Vatican" in Arabic, since the leader of the Coptic Church is the "Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa". In fact, the title Pope has been attached to the See of Alexandria for three centuries longer than it has been attached to Rome.

[Brian Courts]

Acknowledging human imperfection and sinfulness is hardly a "bold admission" for a Catholic.

As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is still around. In contrast, consider the fate of the following anti-Catholic movements and persons:

My statement had nothing to do with either acknowledging human imperfection or failed ventures. Rather I was pointing out the magnitude of the understatement that is referring to the Inquisition as "not perfect." Indeed, if by "not perfect" you mean an act of utter barbarism and evil, due process notwithstanding.

[Famous Mortimer]

Does anyone else share my fascination with the fact that Islamic extremists have likely killed more Muslims than the supposed enemies that they are targeting?

It would be slapstick if it wasn't so bloody.

[Mad Max]

BC,

I discussed the various Inquisitions in order to demonstrate that I'm happy to discuss Church history and the various distortions thereof. But my original point stands - the Inquisition (contra Monty Python) has become fully predictable.

The Inquisition tends to come up on any thread which in any way touches on the Catholic Church, regardless of relevance - even when the ostensible topic of the thread is a false accusation against the Pope by a terrorist whose hands are stained with American blood.

If Usama had denounced an alleged "Jewish conspiracy," the thread would have focused exclusively on the absurdity of the charge, and on how his willingness to spread such lies underscored Usama's wickedness. Posters wouldn't take the opportunity to make cracks about "that stupid Old Testament God of the Jews" or otherwise take try to emphasize their negative attitude toward Judaism.

This particular thread is better than most, I acknowledge, because until I presumed to take note of "bill's" remarks, most of the comments [other than "bill's"] were focused on the badness of Usama. Therefore, H&R posters showed an ability to focus on the actual issue at hand, which is commendable.

[Aeon J. Skoble]

Only 4 people coming across with lines from that wonderful movie? (OTOH, it's good to see that anyone thinks that way.) "What do you need a fancy suit for, you got no job to wear it to?" "What did you say??"
But hey, let's get creative - topic-specific permutations are also permissible, e.g.:
"Knowin' how to spend it -- I took 200 dinari off shylocks to see Sinatra in Mecca - sat two seats away from Khomeini. That's what I call success, pop."

[Calidore]

Brian Courts,

The general point to be taken from the wars of religion, the Inquisition, the involvement of Europe in the slave trade, the disregard for notions of religious and political freedom, etc. is that the RCC acted really no worse or no better than the other corporate authorities which it was both allied with and those it opposed during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.

[Calidore]

Mad Max,

As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is still around.

Sort of. It has changed dramatically over the years. For example, it is no longer the temporal power that it once was.

[Abdul]

Osama talks tough now, but it'll be a different story when he's facing the wrong end of a halberd, with the Swiss Guard on the other end.