The Friday Political Thread: Four-on-the-Floor Edition

Quote of the Week
"It is as outrageous as having Nazis march through Skokie, Ill." - The New America Foundation's Len Nichols on a conference call with press. He was describing Barack Obama's attacks on Hillary Clinton's health care plan.

The Week in Brief
- John McCain won the 5-way Florida primary by five points, demonstrating that he was completely unbeatable and that it was time to suck it up and make him president.
- The Democrats debated at a table and pretended to like each other.
- The Republicans debated at a table and didn't pretend.
- Endorsements flew in the presidential race, mostly to Obama on the Democratic side (a pack of Kennedys, both Seattle papers, most California papers) and to McCain on the Republican side (everyone not actually related to the Romney brothers).
- John Edwards and Rudy Giuliani left the presidential race, and the reason offices ran out of champagne.
- President Bush gave his final State of the Union address. Remember?

Below the Fold
- Quin Hillyer says that now is the time for Fred Thompson, Rick Santorum, Butch Otter and the rest of the conservative family to stop John McCain… by running for president themselves.
- Stanley Karnow, who knows a little about this, looks back to the Tet Offensive (forty years ago yesterday) for lessons about our current crises.
- Adam Reilly profiles one of Mitt Romney's notorious flacks. If you got a resume and the last job listed was "Mitt Romney campaign," would you hire him?
- Steve Appleford goes inside the Obama California operation.
- John Sugg writes about some… newsletters? Is that what they're called?
- Peter Gelzenis conjures up some truly pristine Romney-hatred in the Boston Herald. "Now, he limps back to us in Massachusetts, the least favorite of his 22 home states. Mitt comes back looking more like Willy Loman, his trunk heavy with the samples people failed to buy."

Politics 'n' Prog this week is given over to a band I don't actually listen to that much, but who have a political song that seems to appeal equally to Ron Paul voters and 70s sci-fi fans.

Comments

[Jack]

Someone please tell me I'm imagining that huge GoogleAds banner at the top of the page.

[weigel\'s wet dream]

Weegy, if that's the best you can do, you've got performance issues.

[Warty]

Whatever John Sugg is, he's not a libertarian.

[Warty]

Oh, and Dream Theater is the guiltiest of guilty pleasures.

[Libertarian Librarian]

If it is a Google ad for Obama bumper stickers it is not your imagination. Google has some work to do on their context ad placement.

[Libertarian Librarian]

"Quin Hillyer says that now is the time for Fred Thompson, Rick Santorum, Butch Otter and the rest of the conservative family to stop John McCain... by running for president themselves."

I would LOVE a brockered convention! That would be fun! As a complete political geek I wholeheartedly endorse Quin Hillyer's plan to stop John McCain!

[Joe Allen]

Due to the media, Ron Paul may be SILENT RUNNING, but he is still the DARK STAR of this election season.

[BakedPenguin]

Jack - at least those ads aren't talking.

[sv]

karnow's article was surprisingly brief. i wish he would elaborate more on our current conflict(s).

also -- Ron Paul please run an ad during the Superbowl! A good one! It's not too late! (Who am I kidding -- of course it's too late..)

[sv]

speaking of ads, that snorg tees chick is really cute and kind of scary-looking at the same time.

[B.P.]

Since reason.com decided to become a television station, my workplace is filtering it out as a "streaming video" site. Now I have to do actual work. Thanks guys.

SV - I heard someone on the radio tonight say that Fox refused to carry political ads during the Super Bowl.

[Tom Walls]

Dream Theater is absolutely horrible.

Check out Spock's Beard - a prog rock cliche in every note of this 16-minute performance::

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LZ8ArciKdZo

[Steven Horwitz]

Yeah, but unlike the wankers Dream Theatre, Spock's Beard can actually write melodies.

[Nutter]

Can you turn on Javascript in the comments section so we can run our own Adsense ads?

[sv]

BP -- really? that rings true actually. oh well.

i have to admit, i dig that dream theater song. it's a lot better than the dream theater stuff some friends tried to push on me years ago, which i thought was just corny. it's also better than this spock's beard business, which does fit the cliche to a T.

[Nephilium]

Libertarian Librarian:

Not as much as the fact that my gMail ad is almost continuously a Huckabee 2008 ad...

Nephilium... ordained Agnostic.

[SIV]

Whatever John Sugg is, he's not a libertarian.

He writes filler copy for our local free shopper/coupon/strip club advertising tabloid.

[Lifer]

article about aforementioned snorg tees girl:
http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080112/NEWS01/80112066

[Libertarian Librarian]

QUESTION: Are SIV and sv the same person?

[Juan]

Stop dissing Dream Theater

[SIV]

I don't see any ads. Advertising content doesn't bother me but they slow down the page-loading real bad so I run Adblock Plus in firefox.

[SIV]

QUESTION: Are SIV and sv the same person?

Nope

[Libertarians for Obama]

I just started Libertarians for Obama. Pass it along.

[Derek]

John Suggs' article isn't even worth linking to, much less worth reading. Get over it Reason, the newsletters flap is dead and gone, and has been so for several weeks now.

[Derek]

I should start a "Libertarians for Hillary Clinton" web site. I can unite all the Dondero-types who are looking for a way to jump off the sinking Giuliani/Romney "libertarian republican" ticket. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to embrace a libertarian Democrat like Hillary.

[Nephilium]

Oh gods... the TSA has started a blog...

Read angry comments before they turn off commenting...

Nephilium

[Robert Hutchinson]

From Sugg's article:

the libertine Ayn Rand purists at Reason magazine

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH--

(gasp)

--AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(I then passed out, but at least that kept me from reading any further.)

[Brandybuck]

Quin Hillyer: WTF? You've had almost a year to run a real conservative candidate you could get behind. You were for Thompson for a while, but as soon as he actually declared, you dumped him. Paul is far more conservative than the remaining three frontrunners, but your fetish for killing Muslims blinded you to that fact. So know you'll probably get a RINO on your ballot.

John Snugg: Why did Weigel put this link in? It might have been to keep the bash-paul-always fires burning, but the actual article is extremely hostile to all libertarians, cosmo, paleo or otherwise. He's just an angry guy yelping at those who are not like him. Droll.

[Eric Dondero]

Okay, all of us mainstream libertarians have decided that Romney is a tool.The Reagan Library debate was excruciatingly painful to watch.
But a brief shining mainstream libertarian light showed through the fog....Mike Huckabee.
He has picked up the mantle of Federalism from Fred Thompson and spoke Truth to Islamo-Fascist power. Mainstream,fiscal libertarians could do worse as we saw the next night at the kodak Theater.

[Plant Immigration Rights Suppo]

Eric, before you put a halo on Huckabee's head look at his actual record as governor of Arkansas. He was a big government governor through and through. He is neither libertarian nor conservative. He does not have my vote - even if he gets the nomination. If he gets the OGP nomination I am voting LP.

[Click \'n\' Learn]

1. If you want Ron Paul to come close to winning something, you're going to have to reduce the popularity of his opponents. Blimps only go so far. So, if you want RP to succeed, get out there and ask his opponents real questions - the kind the MSM is afraid to ask - then upload their responses to video sites. That will also have the impact of striking back at the MSM by showing how bad they are.

An excellent question you can ask McCain is here.

If you can ask that question in time, many fewer voters will vote for an RP opponent, and many will start looking for an alternative, and they might choose RP.

2. Reason's buddies at the SPLC have started a new campaign. While at first glance their plans might make libertarians uneasy, the bottom line is that their plans will help the bottom lines of worthy companies that profit from illegal activity. So, it's OK.

3. Mickey has (finally) realized how bad Obama is.

4. LauraPetrie + Hillary on guitar + catchy = this week's prog antidote.

[Warty]

The only prog I like nowadays is death metal prog. If you don't like it, it means you suck.

[BakedPenguin]

PIRS, I believe that's a spoof. Dondero always posts his website URL, and I don't think even he would ever go to Huck.

?Ay caramba! ?SoloLun?tico!

[gaijin]

Gotta thank Baked Penguin for the La Villa earlier today...Dream Theater isnt bad, but as SHorowits mentioned above...not much for the melody.

Logan's run on the other hand...seems like we kind of headed in the opposite direction with this year's first harvest of baby boomers.

[Wikipedia Fanatic]

"Whatever John Sugg is, he's not a libertarian."

[citation needed]

[Kolohe]

Random Media Mendacity rant

So earlier this week I saw the clip of Bill Clinton saying (from ABC news website, I think):

And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canada - the rich counties - would say, 'OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.'

And it was dutifully picked up by various right wing talk radio (Hannity was one, IIRC) And I thought, 'wow, that's pretty bad, and is likely to bite them in the ass in the fall. Perversely, he's right as a matter of cause and effect, but what the heck was he thinking?'

But then I see a clarification (on the Corner of all places) that the rest of the quote was:

We could do that. But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren.

So whomever did that first clip is being deliberately deceptive, but nonetheless was able to spread unchecked for a while.

That is the sort of shit that should get someone fired.

[John C. Randolph]

"us mainstream libertarians"

Rittberg,

When they put you on the short bus and drove you to the regular kid's school, they may have told you it was "mainstreaming", but that doesn't make you "mainstream" by any ordinary definition of the word.

BTW, maybe you and Rudy can start a vaudeville act or something. I hear he's looking for a job these days, too.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

" Libertarians for Obama."

Oh, that's funny. How about "Libertarians for Sauron" while you're at it?

-jcr

[t. j.]

i'm still voting for ron paul in the primary in my state (virginia)

[mtc]

I was similarly amused by "the libertine Ayn Rand purists at Reason magazine,".

You could never have read Reason before to think it was a magazine of Ayn Rand purists. Nor could you have ever read Ayn Rand before and call her a libertine. (Objectivism has plenty'o'faults, but being libertine ain't one of them.)

Weigel I dunno why you even linked this guy, but I think 'libertine Ayn Rand purists' should have been quote of the week, with or without context.

Also I'm a little surprised Firefox says objectivism isn't a word. Aw.

[Ali]

Hello All!

I have been away for a few days and missed the "look" on Dondero's face when Rudy announced his endorsement of McCain.

How was it? Must have been a great moment. Is there a thread where this was discussed? I'd love to see it sometime.

So Eric, is it Romney now? He's certainly libertarian. Ask all the people here in Massachusetts (taxasuchetts as some call it here). Very libertarian that he thinks that the $15B Big Dig was very important and that only government had to do it. Romney Libertarian. LOL!

[From the Keystrokes of John Q.]

And on a completely unrelated note:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8141602

An Article about Ron Paul's Visit to Colorado...

http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=1811530

And if you look there... you can see me talking to Ron Paul!

[stubby]

Being completely unfamiliar with Spock's Beard, I clicked on the video and thought, at first - okay, bland and yachtrockish, but where's the prog clich....oh. OH. Eew. Didn't finish it.

[Windypundit]

*** Sauron for President '08 ***

When the lesser of evils just won't do.

[mediageek]

I just started Libertarians for Obama. Pass it along.

What? As one of those "hey guys, look at this goofy website with the stupid shit pasted all over it" kind of things?

Libertarians for Obama.

That's almost as funny as Time Cube.

[mediageek]

Also:

Dream Theater rocks.

[Bingo]

I'm still surprised Muse hasn't been featured in the prog and politics thread. They often feature apocalyptic dystopian science fiction scenarios as related to current events, c'mon Weigel!

[Bingo]

also, Nephilum, the TSA blog is the most hilarious thing ever. There is no way its going to last a week without getting hacked or defaced in some way. Hands down, the most hated government agency.

[hale]

I hate Dream Theater; a band trading on theatricality that can't act or write a decent script. All they have is 16th notes and tricky stuff with number-of-reps.

[chris matthews]

Did you even read the Sugg's article before you linked it?What a waste of perfectly good electrons.

That you'd expose your readers to that tripe when the author claims to be a libertarian is very sad man.

Watch out libertarians!!! Suggs is going to come save us all with government regulation, and Enron shows that the free market doesn't work!!!

Is it too much to ask you to link to someone that's not blatantly ignorant, or did you see the topic and feel compelled to associate yourself with it?

If I spell the word racist in the form of linked together feces and take a pic will you publish it and give me a byline?

[DavidS]

That you'd expose your readers to that tripe when the author claims to be a libertarian is very sad man.

Hear hear! I expect to be protected by Reason from arguments that I disagree with. Unfortunately, many of the suggested links are quite unsuitable. Please try harder.

[John C. Randolph]

Enron shows that the free market doesn't work!!!

I get the deer-in-the-headlights look from my liberal acquaintances every time I point out that the equities markets busted those crooks long before any government agency figured them out.

-jcr

[Cognitive Dissonant]

Newsweek's running a story on 'Obamacans'

"Some prominent Republicans have caught Obama fever."

I predict that, after the election, the name of the GOP will be amended with a preceding "what's left of"

as in "what's left of the Republican party"

Fear mongers and violent aggressive freaks who evoke Jesus a lot are no way to build a party.

Speaking of which, I was trapped in a hotel room for the day after Bush's State of the Union speech. I watched Washington Journal and was shocked (shocked!) by the callers who expressed support for our adventures in the Middle East based solely on conforming with the bible's endtime predictions.

[wayne]

"If I spell the word racist in the form of linked together feces and take a pic will you publish it and give me a byline?"

That's South Park's beat, pal.

[joe]

I get the deer-in-the-headlights look from my liberal acquaintances every time I point out that the equities markets busted those crooks long before any government agency figured them out

You need to find smarter liberals, because the fact that all of the investors money was lost before the government even began to pay attention is exactly the problem with laissez-faire economic policy that liberals are always pointing out.

Thank goodness there wasn't any oversight cramping Enron's style. That would have been even worse than if the Fed had established better mortgage-lending standards.

[J sub D]

We could do that. But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren.

Kolohe, I, and many others, have made that exact same point here. Incomplete and out of context quotes are among the dirtiest of political dirty tricks.

I despise Bill Clinton as a person, but that is below the belt.

[Al Federber]

It's like Willi Schlamm said: "The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."

[Michael Pack]

All this talk about universal health care.I'm waiting for universal food,house and beer.

[Dedalus]

"John Sugg writes about some... newsletters? Is that what they're called?"

Weigel, you're such a dick.

[MCW]

The wingnuts on Fox are already trying to scare voters by talking about tax hikes. Of course the tax hikes will only be on the super rich, but they don't tell you that.

Why should we care if other peopels taxes are raised? Its not like we will ever be the super rich.

[Accuracy in Blogging, Inc.]

Why should we care if other peopels taxes are raised? Its not like we will ever be the super rich.

Why should we MCM care if other peopels taxes are raised? With his loser attitude, it's not like we MCM will ever be the super rich.

Our work here is done.

[joe]

Yeah, the difference between Paris Hilton and you? Paris Hilton's attitude.

[Neu Mejican]

*** Sauron for President '08 ***

When the lesser of evils just won't do.

Actually, Sauron was the lesser of evils...your slogan would need to be

"Melkor for President 08...when the lesser of evils just won't do."

For the bumper sticker it could be

"Morgoth Bauglir, the most evil man this year...Melkor 08"

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/m/melkor.html

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/d/darklord.html

[Neu Mejican]

Here's your prog-metal

http://www.morgoth.eastpool.com/index.php

[Neu Mejican]

The campaign theme song?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R2nB6eQ93Ys

[chris matthews]

[i]Hear hear! I expect to be protected by Reason from arguments that I disagree with. Unfortunately, many of the suggested links are quite unsuitable. Please try harder.[/i]

Ahh, the wonderful word of relativism, where every monkey that bangs out a couple of verbs and nouns is worthy of attention...

I thought the motto was "free minds and free markets", instead I'm lead to petulant blathering from an uneducated socialist.

If I wanted MSNBC, I'd be watching it.

[tarran]

Notice how excited MCW is; he's been told that the government is going to take stuff from other people and give it to him.

Let's hear it for legal plunder! Why take on the risks of burglary when you can get the tax-man to do it for you!*

*Warning: Taxes on aimed at a wealthy minority on occasion destroy an industry. If the central bank is inflating the money supply, the middle class can find itself subject to the tax as well. An unexpected war or financial crisis can cause a lower threshold for being hit with the tax.

[Neu Mejican]

This one's just for SIV...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=flMcgcYNyBg

[joe]

Don't take advice on taxation from people who are philosophically opposed to it.

They might have some useful observations, but their advice on what to do is not based on improving the tax system, but destroying it.

[x,y]

One of the many problems with using Enron as an example of a free-market failure is that fraud will exist regardless of the economic system in place. It's more of a red herring than an indictment.

[MCW]

Tarran theres a very way to fix the inflation problem write in the law that the top tax will always apply to the top 1%, regardless of their income.

[J sub D]

Yeah, the difference between Paris Hilton and you? Paris Hilton's attitude.

No, the difeerence between Bill Gates and me is attitude (and ability).
The difference between Derek Jeter and me is attitude (and talent).

On Paris Hilton, do you have a problem with inheritances? Or is it just when dumbass sluts are the beneficiaries?

[Anarcho Agora]

I'm philosophically opposed to taxes, here's my advice:

It's the spending that ails us...not the taxes.

We need to fix the spending problem before we can legitimately begin wringing our collective hands over the method and frequency of collections.

Take it...

It's good advice...

[joe]

J sub,

I don't have a philosophical problem with inheritances, but I don't consider it to be a sacred right for heirs, either.

An Heir Tax is one of many possible ways to raise revenue, and should be weighed against others in a pragmatic manner. It also happens to be, to my knowledge, the only tax that does not take money from the people who earned it, which is a point in its favor.

[Neu Mejican]

joe,

Don't take advice on taxation from people who are philosophically opposed to it.

An ideas worth is not really connected to the source.

[J sub D]

An Heir Tax is one of many possible ways to raise revenue, and should be weighed against others in a pragmatic manner.

Yeah, maybe should consider something like that. We could call it an estate tax or an inheritance tax.

It also happens to be, to my knowledge, the only tax that does not take money from the people who earned it, which is a point in its favor.

I'm glad to see you infer that windfall tax schemes take money from those who earned it. Is this a breahthrough? 😉

[joe]

N.M.,

By all means, listen to their ideas. Heck, that's what I come for.

But don't take their advice. That's a different matter.\

J sub D,

DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DE...ooh. I wet 'em!

[J sub D]

but I don't consider it to be a sacred right for heirs, either.

I rabidly agree with you there. I despise the inheritance lawsuits. If a sane person leaves Skip or Buffy out of her will, tough luck preppies.

Get a job
Sha na na na, sha na na na na

[Nephilium]

joe:

Ehhh... don't really agree that an estate tax doesn't take money away from the person who earned it. If I earn X dollars, why is there a difference if I were to give it to someone before I die, or after I die? Not to mention that right now estate taxes hurt small business owners the most.

Of course... I'm also really irritated by taxes right now... just filled out all my tax forms, and have the joy of seeing how much was taken from me...

Stupid feds... thinking I'm rich.

Nephilium

[J sub D]

DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DEATH TAX DE...ooh. I wet 'em!

Now my advice for those who die,
Declare the pennies on your eyes.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

😉

[Warty]

Do the super rich actually pay estate taxes? I would imagine they have enough money to game the system by putting it in offshore accounts and whatnot so that they don't pay a dime.

[joe]

Nephilium,

You own nothing after you die. Your soul is departed, and your body has all the rights of nail trimmings.

The Inheritance Tax takes money away from the heirs of the person who earned it.

Not to mention that right now estate taxes hurt small business owners the most. This is that "weighed in a pragmatic manner" bit I was talking about before. As I understand it, the way rich heirs get around this is to sell part of the business to investors. I don't see how this hurts the business, just the heirs.

[x,y]

You own nothing after you die. Your soul is departed, and your body has all the rights of nail trimmings.

True, but all you should have to do is set-up a will so that the transfer of your $ (to whomever) becomes effective the minute/hour/day before you die. This eliminates the objection that you cannot own anything -- and cannot therefore transfer anyting -- after you die (an objection I agree with).

[J sub D]

And we have this stupid ass exemption for "family farms". Why not an exemption for family bars, family bowling alleys and my favorite, family massage parlors? Why are the "family farm" so damned sacred? It's not like the US is in any danger of losing the ability to feed ourselves.

I'm not saying "#$@*& you, farmers", I'm saying "you ain't that special".

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

J sub D,

What exactly happens at your "Family Massage Parlor"?

[Nephilium]

Warty:
Generally (at least to my understanding), the way the rich get around an estate tax is to set up a trust while they're alive. This avoids the capital used in setting up the fund being hit by an estate tax.

x,y:
I'm definitely not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV... but I don't think you can set up a will to give items in the past.

joe:
Meh... I'm not even sure if there is a soul to depart. I'll just be an ex-Nephilium when I die. But I do find it amusing that the only real way to avoid the estate tax is to give everything to my heir before I die, and then beg an allowance from them. (I can see the arguments now...) And as to how it can hurt a business, most people aren't at the top of their game after a family member dies. So I doubt they'll be able to make the best decision at that time.

Nephilium

[Cheap Trick]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rp_qMbDmB8Y

You work hard, you make money
There ain't no on in the world who can stop you
You work hard, you went hungry
Now the taxman is out to get you
You worked hard
And slaved and slaved for years
Break your back sweat a lot
Well, it's just not fair

He hates you, he loves money
And he'll steal your shit and think that it's funny

[J sub D]

What exactly happens at your "Family Massage Parlor"?

The sons do maintenance and security. The daughters do the books and "customer service".
Our motto, "Let us lend you a hand".

[VM]

But I do find it amusing that the only real way to avoid the estate tax is to give everything to my heir before I die, and then beg an allowance from them.

nah - that didn't work out too well for Mr. Lear

[joe]

x,y,

True, but all you should have to do is set-up a will so that the transfer of your $ (to whomever) becomes effective the minute/hour/day before you die Yes, and you can set up your business so that your employees get a paycheck at 1:22 AM every other Friday. Is the employer's "right to pay" being intruded upon because the employees then owe income taxes?

In case it isn't clear, I'm not saying people have no right to will their estate to whom they choose - they do. I'm saying, the heirs don't have a right to get that money tax-free.

I'll just be an ex-Nephilium when I die. I know you intended that as a passing remark, but that's actually a very poignant image. *sniff*

[Neu Mejican]

a very poignant image. *sniff*

http://www.seekye1.com/Nephilim.gif

[Neu Mejican]

Ex Nephilim?

http://www.egiptologia.pl/gal3/3sakd.jpg

[x,y]

Well, I am a lawyer, and I'm not sure what the law says (it probably varies from state to state). But I'm not making an argument about the law says you can and can't do. As a market anarchist, I don't think the laws are legitimate anyway. I'm just saying what should be the case.

[x,y]

*what the law says ...

Preview is your friend.

[x,y]

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking joe.

[BakedPenguin]

nah - that didn't work out too well for Mr. Lear

Indeed, Moose. For those interested in Japanese film (or film in general), Akira Kurosawa did an excellent revision of that tale with his Ran.

Ex Nephilim?

Would this qualify?

[Ali]

Would someone please tell me how Dondero reacted (if any) when Rudy endorsed McCain? Is there a link to a specific thread?

[x,y]

Sure they have a right to get that money tax free. No transfer of money -- or wealth -- should ever be taxed. It doesn't matter if we're talking about employees or beneficiaries under a will.

[Ali]

Or even better, how Dondero reacted when Rudy came in 3rd in FL?

[x,y]

Ali,

I believe he ignored it. As he does every time someone points out an inconvenient fact.

[BakedPenguin]

Ali, he actually gloated that Giuliani got 13% or whatever, while Paul got 3%. Then he retconned himself to say that he always kinda liked Romney, too, and that 101 Famous Libertarians you never heard of also had mad man-crushes on Massachusetts Mor-bot Mitt.

[Ali]

x,y:

Yeah, I would not be surprised. Is he now full throttle behind Mitt? Cool, it would be priceless to see him loose that contest, too.

Eric, if you're reading these comments now, it is not that I do not like you (though you do get on my nerves, and almost always disagree with you on like everything), it is just that the joy of seeing your arguments go down the drain, give me pleasure.

[Ali]

Baked- Danke!

[Warty]

Eric, if you're reading these comments now, I don't like you.

[aguyinohio]

The fun part of the Suggs article was how he was verbally gang-raped in the ass by all the people that commented on the article.

That's what I love about the internet - idiots are not tolerated.

[prolefeed]

For those here arguing in favor of the Death Tax, basically you're saying that it is a good idea to:

1) Make death a taxable offense.

2) Give a large tax bill to grieving children suffering through one of the most traumatic moments in their life.

3) Apply the tax to those naive enough about finance to not give their estate away to their children before they die, rather than after, or set up generation-skipping trusts, or otherwise employ tax attorneys to find ways around this repugnant confiscation of wealth by an avaricious government.

I understand the POV of those who find all this acceptable and or even think it's a great idea. I can even accept that some good people may not have thought it through and realized the implications of supporting this tax. It's the people who've had this explained to them and yet gleefully support it, and gloat over the chance to stick it to grieving, crying children whose parent has just died, and consider it one of the best taxes ever, that I consider reprehensible ghouls and avaricious thieves to be avoided.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Ali:

Would someone please tell me how Dondero reacted (if any) when Rudy endorsed McCain? Is there a link to a specific thread?

As I recall he spent most of those few threads talking about either how great Romney was or arguing against no one that Paul's percent of the vote was very small. If anyone mentioned any past statements or difficulties libertarians might have with any of his preferred candidates, he fell back on his "you don't use your real name so I won't respond" dodge. This was even to Cesar, who apparently does use his real name, both as a handle and as his email address.

Of course, I can't be sure any of these posters were actually Eric Dondero, as I think he's almost as common a handle on here for people who want a little spice in a thread as is Edward.

aguyinohio:

Idiots - not tolerated on the internet? Are we on the same internet?

[Ali]

SWDWTLHJ- Merci beaucoup monsieur!

[x,y]

So I just now read the Suggs piece. This part slayed me:

Deregulation gave us Enron, the threat to the republic posed by media consolidation, the savings-and-loan disaster two decades ago, and most recently the horrendous housing-and-mortgage crisis. The libertarian assumption that unfettered business acts responsibly and for the good is illusion. We forget that government isn't the enemy; it should be an agreement among free people on efficient management of a society.

People assume Enron operated in a free market, but it didn't. It operated in a mixed economy. If you're going to blame the failings of a company on the environment in which it operated, the most you can say is that a mixed economy is incapable of preventing fraud. And as I mentioned before, even this is ridiculous. Fraud will exist regardless of the type of economic policies implemented (or not implemented in the case of a free market).

Next, I don't know any libertarian who thinks or assumes that unregulated businesses act responsibly and for the (greater) good. A more reasonable assumption is that unregulated businesses will act in their best interests, but this also applies to regulated businesses. So seeing as how no one is actually making this argument or assumption, I have to assume this is nothing more than a strawman.

[Ali]

1) Make death a taxable offense.

So wouldn't the death tax be an incentive for medical science?

[MCW]

Why can't we tax people who make over $1 million at 50%? The rich will still make at least $500,000 a year and isn't that plenty to live on anyway? I'm so sick of whining of the rich. If you can't live on that kind of money reduce your standard of living, its not like your going to starve.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

We might also tax bold text. Or perhaps even italics.

[x,y]

Why can't we tax people who make over $1 million at 50%?

We (the state acting through its elected officials) can and often do. If you aggregate taxes paid at all levels (federal, state, and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc.), people often remit more than 50 percent of their income to all levels of government.

The rich will still make at least $500,000 a year and isn't that plenty to live on anyway?...If you can't live on that kind of money reduce your standard of living, its not like your going to starve.

What gives you the right to make decisions for other people?

I'm so sick of whining of the rich.

This is rich coming from a first-class whiner.

[joe]

prolfeed has the same "argument" for every issue: use the most inflammatory language he can come up without contribuing any intellectual content at all.

You forgot the part about stomping on kittens.

[joe]

gloat over the chance to stick it to grieving, crying children

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

[joe]

What gives you the right to make decisions for other people?

You are making decisions for other people, and deciding what they can get by with, just as much when you close down a program they use as when you tax them.

[BakedPenguin]

You forgot the part about stomping on kittens.

IM IN UR EST8, RIPPIN OFF UR BEQWEST **splat!**

[joe]

Mew, mew, I just want to say good-bye to daddy one last time, please, just...SPLAT!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely,

Everybody who disagrees with prolefeed about politics

[BakedPenguin]

gloat over the chance to stick it to grieving, crying children...

prolefeed, I'm a lot closer to your position than joe's on this matter, but I can't pass up the chance to link to this.

[x,y]

joe, I think you're confusing making decisions for other people with allowing them to do as they please. It's the latter I advocate (which can only be twisted into "making a decision for someone by letting them do as they please" by a disingenuous spinmeister).

[joe]

Nope, I'm not confused at all. Or spinning. Or being dishonest.

You're simply attaching a moral value to one method of reducing people's choices, and a lower moral value to another.

Believe it or not, some people actually recognize that there are other concepts worthy of consideration than whether something involves an activist government. Like, what actually happens in people's lives.

[x,y]

If you're not confusing the two concepts, joe, then would you care to explain how someone will make decisions for another in a market anarchist society? The underlying distinction is that the decisions imposed on others now are backed up by the coercive force of the state. In a market anarchist society, this is only possible if you're willing to behave like a government. Seeing as how I'm not, how would I possibly be making decisions for other people?

[Eric Dondero]

Please note someone is posting under my name above. I did not post anything about Huckabee. That's someone posting under my name.

[Derek]

You know Dondi, I frequently badmouth you, but this shit of people posting under your name has got to stop. It's bullshit.

And I gotta admit, you're right on McCain. Romney is a much better choice for libertarians.

[Joe]

Derek, I'm with you on McCain. Romney is not the greatest, but at least he's got a generally Pro-Business record.

Now with Ron Paul tanking everywhere, we libertarians need to seriously think about getting behind Romney.

[Warty]

Yeah, Ron Paul has tanked. I was very dissapointed in his Florida showing. 3%? Geez, I was expecting more like 10%. At least that's what his campaign was leading us to believe.

He should drop out now, to save the libertarian movement the embarrassment.

[Ali]

Well Dondero, you're guy Giuliani didn't make it. But I can understand why you'd go with Romney. He's pretty good on tax issues. He's generally a fiscal conservative. And he's centrist on social matters.

I hope your guy Romney beats McCain. We need to save the US from Obama and his Nation of Islam buddies. And McCain is too boring to beat Obama.

[Elemenope]

It's the people who've had this explained to them and yet gleefully support it, and gloat over the chance to stick it to grieving, crying children whose parent has just died, and consider it one of the best taxes ever, that I consider reprehensible ghouls and avaricious thieves to be avoided.

Oh. My. God. Someone actually employed a "but, think of the CHILDREN!" argument here.

I thought a Libertarian-leaning site would at least be free of that crap.

p.s. Count me amongst the "reprehensible ghouls". Dead people need no money, and the very few people who would be affected by this tax (you know, those who would have inherited fifty million dollars or so) will have only twenty-five million to soothe their moment of pain, if we had a reasonable 50% rate on fortunes that approach ungodly large status. I surely don't weep for them; they'll be fine with the half of a fortune they didn't earn that they do get to keep.

[J sub D]

Posting under somebody elses name (impersonating) is pretty classless. Jokes are OK, e.g. Dondero's mother/alter ego, but just impersonating another poster is chickenshit.

[Ali]

J sub D-

Thanks my friend. I am glad to see that people are able to see the (hehe) stylistic difference between me and impostors. That was a strange impersonation, though. hmm!

[J sub D]

LMNOP, how about 0% up to 25 million (each beneficiary) 50% above 25 million, adjusted annually for inflation. I can live with that. That way, my 1 million family massage parlor business wouldn't have to be sold to Topless Manipulation? Inc. when I die. And no exceptions for farms!

[joe]

x,y,

By eliminating choices that people have under a liberal democratic society - mainly choices that poorer and weaker people have because of the commitment of resources to providing them with those choices - reform our society into an anarcho-capitalist one would be deciding for them that they will not be going to the doctor, not be living in that apartment, or not be sending their kid to school.

You say "I'm not making choices for other people," as if there is some great moral distinction between leaving them with no choices and telling them they have to pick A when B is also available. It's Pilate-like in its formalist denial of responsibility.

[joe]

Donderrroooooo,

I think everybody figured that out. At least I did, as soon as I saw the comment.

Big-J Joe, did you actually, really score the "[e-mail]" account? That is so cool if you did.

[joe]

Hey, check this out:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/2/132238/0494/147/448344

The zip code from which the largest amoung of Ron Paul donations comes is Fairfield, Iowa.

Honor system: what's in Fairfield, Iowa that makes this an interesting story? Anyone?

[VM]

what's in Fairfield, Iowa that makes this an interesting story? Anyone?

the county fair?

[ducks]

*googled. oooh... Makes sense, sorta...*

[J sub D]

Honor system, I was clueless. Browsed the link. Funny as hell. Politics makes strange bedfellows, indeed.

[Brandybuck]

Sexy Sadie, what have you done? You donated cash from everyone!

[Elemenope]

LMNOP, how about 0% up to 25 million (each beneficiary) 50% above 25 million, adjusted annually for inflation. I can live with that. That way, my 1 million family massage parlor business wouldn't have to be sold to Topless Manipulation? Inc. when I die. And no exceptions for farms!

I dig it.

[joe]

Tax inheritances like income, except add another zero at the end of each bracket, and give people 5 years to pay.

[alisa]

The inheritance tax debate sometimes winds up sounding like a class war, and that's not very interesting.

Here's a thought: taxing inheritance, like taxing gifts over a certain value, is an additional tax over and above the income tax on the money at the time it was earned. This is an incentive not to give gifts or inheritances; instead, people are motivated to spend more, or to give more to charity.

If you accept that different activities can be taxed at different rates (which I realize not everybody does) then there's nothing wrong with it in principle. The relevant question is, are those desirable incentives? Given our low savings rate right now, I don't think we should be telling people to burn up all their cash before they die.

[EricDonderosCumStainedDrawers]

Another Dondildo flame war just erupted here.

[Elemenope]

alisa --

The purported (and I'd say, accurately described) target of a progressive inheritance tax are estates so large that it is difficult to "unload" it all on consumption spending.

And, if they have estates that size to begin with, I don't think insufficient savings was their problem.

[J sub D]

Open thread claim! If you think your city has problems ...

I'm aware that big city politics are generally awash in cronyism, nepotism and self serving actions. Here in Detroit, we can compete with the best (worst?) America has to offer.

But Milton -- Kilpatrick's choice to replace Christine Beatty, who resigned as chief of staff Monday in the wake of a scandal -- comes to the job with his own set of problems. He and his wife filed for bankruptcy in 2006, overcome by delinquent property taxes, parking tickets, credit card and mortgage debts and money owed for car leases and a health club membership.

One of Milton's first orders of business as chief of staff Tuesday was to pay $9,418 in delinquent 2005 and 2006 property taxes to the Wayne County Treasurer's Office, according to a receipt he faxed to the Free Press. He declined to discuss his financial problems.

Letters to the editor at the Detroit News.

I was starting to get positive about our mayor last year. Now I feel like a chump.
Why do I stay? Why do I hope? Why do I continue to care?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

joe:

Tax inheritances like income, except add another zero at the end of each bracket, and give people 5 years to pay.

This is just hyperbole, right? These people would have to have a pretty high annual return on their investments to avoid nonpayment penalties after 5 years - roughly 24% annually or so just to break even, assuming a 30% income tax rate. Taxing someone on ten times the money they have is a bit much. Unless that's not where you meant that we should add the zero.

[J sub D]

Another Dondildo flame war just erupted here.

The first sentence of his first post -
I've yet to meet a Military guy, active duty or Veteran, who is opposed to the War in Iraq. is a bald faced lie.

This is downright sad. I don't revel in other poeple's mental problems. Pathetic and sad.

[joe]

alisa,

Here's a thought: taxing inheritance, like taxing gifts over a certain value, is an additional tax over and above the income tax on the money at the time it was earned.

It's still a tax on levied when the person paying the tax receives money from a different source. In that way, it's less of a double tax than the property tax.

[joe]

Someone,

I meant, add the zero at the end of the numbers at the different income tax brackets. The 33% rate kicks in at 700-something thousand, not seventy-something.

And it's not so much 'hyperbole' as blather. So there's that.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

joe, Oh OK. I misunderstood. I thought you meant to add the zero not to find the rate, but the tax.

[Warty]

Doth mine eyes deceive me, or did Dondero post under my crappy nonsensical handle? Or wait, maybe someone spoofed him spoofing me...oh man, I need a drink.

[Warty]

Another Dondildo flame war just erupted here.

Our friend Eric may be going insane. From that thread:

Just ignore Tim. He's one of those Al Qaeda boys, like Adam Ghadan. He'll defend the Islamo-Fascists, but you'll never catch him defending his own country.

Typical Commie Islamo-Nazi.

Commie Islamo-Nazis? Damn. Even McBain would have trouble handling those dudes.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Warty,
Yeah I saw that too. I couldn't figure it out, but hey, look on the bright side - if they're spoofing you even secondhand I guess you're famous.

How is life - now that you're snorting cocaine off supermodels' (or hotel heiresses') backs?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

The Commie-Islamo-Nazi-Ninjas my grandpa fought were tougher.

[Ali]

Ron Paul is going to be on MTV any moment now for a "debate" in which Obama, Clinton, Huck and Paul only participate in.

[BakedPenguin]

Our friend Eric may be going insane.

...may be going...? Check your verb tense, Warty.

Commie Islamo-Nazis?

Rainer Wolfcastle: This is McBain. Under attack by commie nazis...

[BakedPenguin]

Ali, since you've been slacking at posting here @ H&R the past few days, I nominate you to live blog the Mtv debate.

[Warty]

That doesn't make sense. I'm not even close enough to being interesting enough to be spoofed.

How is life - now that you're snorting cocaine off supermodels' (or hotel heiresses') backs?

Nicotine, valium, vicodin, marijuana, ecstasy and alcohol...c-c-c-c-cocaine.

[alisa]

Joe:
I don't object to double taxes in general. But if you want to tax an activity, you'd better make sure you want less of that activity.

Elemenope:
Granted, the people who have at least $625,000 to give to their children are a minority. But when you say "I don't think insufficient savings was their problem," you seem to be assuming that an estate tax won't be a disincentive for the rich to save.

But it does matter: every $1 of reduction in inheritance transfers is associated with a $39 in the long-run amount of capital in the economy. Estate taxes also discourage people from starting their own businesses -- particularly for blacks and other minorities, who are more likely to be self-employed if their parents were.

There's a lot of data here . Granted, it's political (it's a congressional committee's report) but most of the stuff there seems reasonable.

[Ali]

Ali, since you've been slacking at posting here @ H&R the past few days, I nominate you to live blog the Mtv debate.

Haha... well, only briefly.

- Asked abot Darfur, and Paul said (with lots of justification), that intervention does not work.

- What would you have done after 9-11? Says go to get OBL, but not nation build afghanistan, or build oil and gas pipes, etc. Give money to Musharaf, who now we undermine.

- A question about protecting young women from expensive anti-pregnancy (is that what they call them?) medications. Give an economic answer and also says that gov+private corporations, one gets high costs and poor quality health care for all.

- A question about why young people support dems more than repubs. Paul says it is because of Iraq the young hate the repubs. Recommends that the questioner attend one of his rallies to see how many young people there are, and the reasons they support him.

- Iran + Russia extort other countries with their oil, what will you do about that? Paul says, let the market do its thing. No war. Best way get off fossil fuel, is not to let government determine course (e.g., ethanol), mentions hemp as a source of ethanol, but essentially get out of the way and let private property protect the environment, while the market determines the best sources of energy. Emphasizes private property and the environment.

- Question: What is your message to undecided voters? "If you are unhappy about status quo, I offer a significant change based on the constitution. Very low taxes, very low spending, entirely foreign policy, strong national defense, economy, abolish federal reserve. Individualism."

- What would you do on foreign policy towards other nations, other than Iraq and Afghanistan? "Noninterventionism, diplomacy. Talk to Iranians, no navy on their border or nuclear first strike. Do not intervene in others' business. Bring troops hope, esp. in Korea, Japan, Europe. Empire coming to end. Economy is the beginning of the fall of an empire."

- Myspace poll: 73% support paul on foreign policy.

- Q: Are you dropping out because of trailing behind the others? Paul: It is very early. Wait until Tuesday. The campaign is a lot more than about Ron Paul. I will keep going until money shores up. I am one in 4 after being 11. We're holding in there. As long as supporters keep supporting I'll be in it. We're up for a big thing that only starts with this elections. I do not want to run your life or your money. The young people in the studio love the answer.

- Why should people vote for you? Paul: I challenge status quo. I am the only one who discusses fiscal policy. No inflation. No wars. People want to and should assume total responsibility of their lives. Restore confidence in freedom and constitution.

[Ali]

There! 53% are definitively supporting Paul.

[Elemenope]

alisa --

Interesting, if horribly twisted, report. It contradicts itself a few times on the assumptions (i.e. "death taxes" are apparently unsuccessful at raising revenue, and yet they are used historically and effectively for emergency revenue collection during wartime...hence it does work at raising revenue). Mostly, my problem with the report is that it is a caricature of a useful inheritance tax system--a strawman--and a properly implemented system would avoid nearly all of the problems outlined in the report (in essence, the inheritance tax idea is sound, even if some implementations have been flawed).

I dig a J sub D style tax over a joe style tax, only because I do believe that the floor for the tax should be higher than what joe has been talking about (though perhaps not as high as J sub D's 25 mil per beneficiary; I think ten mil indexed for inflation annually should be more than adequate).

With such a tax, I don't see a conceivable impact on small business or general savings patterns being much of a concern. And the idea that a dollar taxed is a dollar (or several) forever destroyed from the economy is a little weird; the government spends money too, and when it does it is usually into the private market, either immediately or eventually. Once in private hands, those dollars will undoubtedly be invested at the same rate all their untaxed brothers were.

[joe]

Thinking about it, 100X the income tax brackets would be in the neighborhood.

[Eric Dondero]

Hey Paul fanatics. Your boy Ron just hired an Israel Hater from the Huffington Post as a top foreign policy Advisor.

LGF and LoneStarTimes are both reporting that Philip Geraldi has joined the Paul team. Geraldi is a known Israel hater who believes that AIPAC controls American politicians, and has said that American soldiers are "dying for Israel."

[BakedPenguin]

thx, Ali. I was just giving you a hard time. Nobody who's not getting paid should have to watch that (unless you want to).

As far as the tax is concerned, if it's an inheritance tax, shouldn't it be taxed per recipient rather than per decedent?

Geraldi ...has said that American soldiers are "dying for Israel."

What a silly thing to say. Everyone knows they're dying for Exxon, Blackwater and Halliburton.

[the innominate one]

hey, awik, how's Rudy's campaign going?

[Ali]

hey, awik, how's Rudy's campaign going?

The only libertarian running for president is out. How sad. There isn't anyone out there to replace him.

Do you guys think Mitt would do?

Can someone make the case for Mitt? Whether he's libertarian or not?

[Ali]

thx, Ali. I was just giving you a hard time. Nobody who's not getting paid should have to watch that (unless you want to).

I wasn't sure, so I did it anyways.

[Anarcho Agora]

Thanks for doing it.

I tuned in late...ended up watching most of Clinton's turn before figuring out it was over and I was late for the Paul.

[Al Federber]

Dondero -

Do you think Israel was a good idea?

[Derek]

Wow, Dondero has really gone off the deep end. He sounds like a psychotic madman over at that other blog, the way he's threatening Gordon.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dude, I used to read Giraldi in American Conservative.

I used to think his "intelligence insights" were crap.

But as to his "Israel hatred" it's the usual thing where anyone who criticizes any government of Israel is a "hater." Bullshit...I currently think Africa is full of corrupt governments...Does that make me a racist?

This may be impolitic, but for a long time I have thought about the following:

1. People say Donderdo's real name is Rittberg, which sounds jewish to me (I cold be wrong I submit)
2. Some Jewish people feel an unreasonable sentimental attachment to ANY government policy of Israel's
3. Ron Paul does not share number 2
4. Donderdo, who used to work for RP, now hate him with an almost unexplainable passion...

That makes me think Dondy got mad at RP over not being sufficiently boot-licking to Likudian fantasies...

[Eric Dondero]

Damn right I've "gone off the deep end." I'll do whatever it takes to protect the dignity and honor of our Brave United States Armed Forces currently deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq, against all those who threaten them.

What's disgusting is individuals like you "Derek" don't have the decency to defend their honor, as well.

Let me take a guess "Derek" ya never served a day of your life in the Armed Forces, right?

Just a guess.

[Eric Dondero]

Yup, guilty as charged. My Mother is Jewish. (Father Italian).

So you going to advocate that I get carted off to the gas chambers "Mr. Nice Guy"?

Kind of fits doesn't it. I mean Don Black, David Macko, David Duke and other Ron Paulists advocate "getting rid of the Jews." How's it feel to be in that sort of company?

[Eric Dondero]

Do I think Israel was a good idea?

What kind of question is that? Of course, Israel was a good idea. I'm hopeful that the Israelis can live in peace with the West Bank Palestianians. There's virtually no hope for Hamas controlled Gaza. But the Palestinians should be given virtually all of their territory back.

[Eric Dondero]

How sad, the Nation's "only libertarian Presidential candidate" ended up with 3% in Florida. That was 5 times less than Giuliani and 11 times less than Mitt Romney.

How very sad.

But don't worry. The Paul fanatics will find a way to spin it as a "victory." Or at least they'll say that "Florida was stolen from Ron Paul... We have evidence of massive voter fraud..."

So the sharade will continue...

[Eric Dondero]

Hey Al, do you think the United States was a good idea?

How about the United Kingdom?

France?

The United Arab Emerites?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dondy-Noone is advocating you be carted off to any gas chambers. In fact, in case you've forgotten, it was the my ancestors (U.S. residents in the 1940's) and their ilk who saved, at great personal expense, European Jews from the gas chambers. btw-You're welcome.

I thought I smelled the irrationality usually tied to Israel among many Jews in your RP hatred...It's understandable considering what your people went through, but don't expect others to buy into it!

"But the Palestinians should be given virtually all of their territory back." Uhh, a lot of that is, er, Israel...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I dunno what RP's stance is on Cuba, but I expect many Cuban Americans would hate him if he were for lifting the embargo, even if they worked for him for a while...

[Warty]

Does this count as a meltdown?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"I mean Don Black, David Macko, David Duke and other Ron Paulists advocate "getting rid of the Jews."

Er, I'm not, nor have ever, been a RP supporter...Everyone regular knows that I should think...I respect RP for presenting a coherent and principled stance, but it's not the stance I would choose and I've said so here...Try again...

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Warty,
A meltdown in comparison to what? His usual measured, reasoned tone?

I'm not sure anyone has ever seen him in a condition other than meltdown. If someone has a link to some other behavior, please, let me know.

...or just give me an ignore key.

[Eric Dondero]

Whoopsie Daisy! Looks like Ron Paul slipped yet again. This time in Maine. This is a State he targetted. And yesterday the LA Times and AP led readers to believe that Paul "Could win the State."

Well, turns out Mitt Romney crushed Paul. Near final results:

Mitt Romney - 52%

John McCain - 22%

Ron Paul - 19%

(Huckabee and Other split the rest.)

[Warty]

This is way crazier than he normally is, Someone. It reminds me why I hide behind a stupid nonsensical internet handle like a pussy-boy, to paraphrase He Who Shall Remain Nameless.

[Ali]

(Huckabee and Other split the rest.)

Who would "other" be? 🙂

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Eric-Israel currently recieves more foriegn aid from the U.S. than any other nation. Given that such foriegn aid is taken from taxpayers by coercion, do you support it, or should we immediately cut off all aid to Israel?

This will go a long way to figuring if you are a libertarian or an Israel supporter (the two often being mutually exclusive).

[Eric Dondero]

Really Mr. Nice Guy. And my Ancestors? They didn't count?

My Jewish and Italian ancestors arrived on the boats at Ellis Island in the 1880s.

But I guess you don't think any of those American "Jews" or "nasty Dagos" had anything to do with liberating Europe from the Nazis huh?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Warty,
Maybe he's just drunk.

I get drunk and post sometimes too. Usually it's when I post late at night. I don't think I pump out quite this much Wattage of crazy or hate, though.

Of course, I'm usually a happy drunk.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I just looked at the state by state polls on Politico...Don't look good for Romney (thank Joseph Smith).

I've said it a million times, if someone likes RP's views, why would his vote counts in a primary matter to anyone? In fact, if they matter, they shoudl matter the opposite of what Dondi thinks: the more votes he gets the more of a message it sends to the ultimate nominee to take his ideas seriously...

[Warty]

When I'm drunk, I just make out with fat chicks. Posting crazy, belligerent things on the internet would be way more embarrassing.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dondi
They may have a lot to do with liberating Europe, like my Irish and German ancestors did. Good for all of them.

I know my anscestors fought in WWII, and so I know their efforts helped save many a Jew, and many others, from a horrible fate...So don't go accusing me of "supporting gas chambers" just because I point out the very probable connection between you being Jewish and your hate for Ron Paul, who has taken the (unforgivable!) position that our foriegn policy may be too pro-Israel...

I'd like you to answer my question @ 9:45

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

There's absolutely no reason to vote if your goal is to influence the outcome of an election. One vote is statistically insignificant, particularly in these national contests. Even if one finds a good candidate (which is rare), helping them win won't be accomplished by voting.

There may be plenty of reasons to vote. Voicing one's moral outrage, upholding tradition, or making a joke would certainly be reasons I could imagine someone using to justify wasting their time at the polls. However, electing a candidate is not one of the things a single vote can accomplish.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"(Father Italian)."

Jesus Christ! Dondi has pointed out many times the affinty for muslims and facism, but holy cripes, the guy belongs to the ethnic group MOST responsible for facism!!! Concern....

[Chris Potter]

For some reason, I thought the Hittites were responsible for fascism. It might just be because I've never met a decent Hittite.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Even when I'm drunk, I lack the self-confidence to hit on fat chicks. I may tend to be a happy drunk but I'm not a very confident drunk.

OK, enough embarrassing personal revelations.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"There's absolutely no reason to vote if your goal is to influence the outcome of an election. One vote is statistically insignificant, particularly in these national contests. Even if one finds a good candidate (which is rare), helping them win won't be accomplished by voting."

I don't understand this...If it means one shoud do MORE than just vote, then yeah...But voting is PART of what you can do for your candidate...I mean, in the end, he needs votes above all else...

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Chris Potter,
I know the Hittites prefer Fascism in Civilization III.

And yes, we have yet more proof of how cool I am.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

MNG,
You can only impact the results of a campaign by providing enough votes to swing the result from loss to victory. Your one vote only makes a difference if that's how close the election is.

If you can convince enough people to vote your way to actually change an outcome, sure, you've done something. But even in that case, your own individual vote could have just as easily been not cast or cast for your favored candidate's opponent. One vote margins of victory are almost unheard of, and in fact I think they are completely unheard of in national contests.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

C'mon Eric, you always claim here that you are THE libertarian figure...

So, should the government compel taxpayers to give aid to Israel (more money than ANY other nation, and WAY more per capita)? Was it wrong all those years they did so? Lets have your principled libertarian answer....

[BakedPenguin]

I second Unemployaphobe's guess - he's just drunk again.

I get drunk and post sometimes too...

I'm shocked. Shocked.

...I don't think I pump out quite this much Wattage of crazy or hate, though.

Never seen anything from either category that I can remember.

There's an occasional poster here (I forget who, unfortunately) who got a bit shirty and basically said that he didn't understand the contempt Donderroooo!! gets around here. I suspect he's never read one of these threads.

It reminds me why I hide behind a stupid nonsensical internet handle like a pussy-boy...

The fact that he doesn't get that he (and others like him) is the reason many desire anonymity I find rather amusing.

When I'm drunk, I just make out with fat chicks.

Shit. I do that stone cold sober.

[Eric Dondero]

Ron Paul's dropping. With 62% of the Maine precincts now in, he's gone down to 18.7%.

Politico.com is calling the State for Romney, and is saying he will get 21 delegate votes, 5 more than New Hampshire.

[Eric Dondero]

Foreign Aid is not the issue. But since you've asked, NO I do not support foreign aid for Israel or any other Nations, with the exception of Iraq, and Afghanistan. And even there, they need to start picking up more of the burden.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Since no reply, let's repeat:

'C'mon Eric, you always claim here that you are THE libertarian figure...

So, should the government compel taxpayers to give aid to Israel (more money than ANY other nation, and WAY more per capita)? Was it wrong all those years they did so? Lets have your principled libertarian answer...."

Let's imagine Dondi's answer:

"Uhh, Isreal, Uhhh, Special, Uhhh, Support Isreal no matter What, that's the libertarian way!!!"

[Eric Dondero]

Hey, why the silence here on Maine?

Only Caucus or Primary today. Big deal. Yet all Reasonoids are strangely silent.

Where's the headlines from Matt Welch or Doherty today, "Ron Paul wins big in Maine"?

Golly gee, guess they can't do that since...

RON PAUL GOT CRUSHED BY MITT ROMNEY 52% TO 18.7%. Hell Paul was the only one to campaign in the State, and he couldn't even beat McCain.

[Eric Dondero]

Why you so concerned about Israel only?

We give foreign aid to some 180 nations worldwide. Interesting you'd pick out Israel from the pack. Do I sense something else at work here? Maybe a tad bit of Anti-Semitism?

[Chris Potter]

Hate to interrupt the Dondero Wars, but I came across an article by Gregg Easterbrook that attempts in part to justify Sen. Specter's desire to subpoena NFL administrators re: Spygate II involving the Pats' first Super Bowl win. Especially interesting to this crowd:

Think Congress has no business investigating sports? Most NFL teams play in publicly subsidized stadiums, and NFL games are aired over public airwaves controlled by federal licenses. The licenses, among other things, prohibit any pre-arrangement or artifice in what is presented as live competition. If a Super Bowl were affected by cheating, that would be a legitimate matter of concern to Congress. Plus, the recent lesson learned via baseball and steroids was that Major League Baseball did not clean up its own house until Congress put some pressure on.

Anyone have a take on this?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dondi
I'm glad you think that way. Will you join me in a joint letter to our leaders to immediately cut off aid to Israel?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Interesting you'd pick out Israel from the pack. Do I sense something else at work here? Maybe a tad bit of Anti-Semitism?"

Er, maybe because we give more aid to Israel than any other nation (2nd is Egypt we give to be nice to Israel).

Your explanations are seeming more and more bankrupt Dondi..

[Chris Potter]

Mr Dondero,

It's friggin' Saturday. They rarely have new posts up on the weekends.

[Rick Barton]

Eric Dondero:

Whoopsie Daisy!

Laugh while you can, monkey boy.

We're going to make sure that the volumes of really moronic, and sometimes quite ugly, comments that you've made on these threads will be available to be used against you should you ever choose to run for office.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dear Congressman:

I am aware that we suport man nations through the coercion of taxpayer moneys. This is wrong. I do not support foreign aid for Israel or any other Nations, with the exception of Iraq, and Afghanistan. The many years we have given Israel, or any other nation, special prominence, were wrong. I urge you in ending this injustice,

Signed

Eric Donderdo

Ready to sign Eric?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Chris,
The cons run by the people wanting to start or restart a sports team are often quite despicable. Getting arenas built out of tax funds is I think a common way of starting this sort of thing. The local government usually buys the line about helping support local business (which I think is questionable at best) as an excuse for the public spending.

That said, if sports teams want to cheat more power to 'em. They can go ahead and use steroids for all I care. The more like pro-wrestling other sports become, the better.

Of course this is coming from a non-sports-fan, so take it with a grain of salt. If I were as into the grand pageantry or the subtle geometry* or whatever it is that makes George Will and his ilk love the stuff, I might feel differently.

*paraphrased from Daniel Clowes in his excellent comics essay on the subject. (I think the title may have been "Why I like baseball.")

[Rogue Paulistinian]

I dunno how the rest of the Ron Paul rabble's gonna perform for this caucus gig, but I can confidently say that my precinct's locked down. Assuming 12 voters to a delegate (8 is the norm), we're a mortal lock for 3 of 6 delegate slots. Plus we have 2 delegate candidates who are down-with-the-Paul but are giving pre vote speeches pitching an interest in being in on the drawing up of the state's 2008 GOP platform

one of them's a self avowed "evangelical" (whatever that means) who's dragging 10 church cronies in to vote for him (but only him)... they'll probably go Huckabee in the straw poll.

I'd like this game better if it was played in the summertime.

It's kinda like getting pigs to the state fair:

the winners of precinct delegate seats go to the county convention, there they pick delegates for the regional convention, at the regional the headcount is winnowed down again and forwarded to the state convention

At the state convention, they draw up the party platform and select the delegates to be seated at the national convention in St Paul.

The candidate numbers the media will be covering come Tuesday night? a "Presidential preference straw poll" that counts for nada but hype.

[Warty]

or whatever it is that makes George Will and his ilk love the stuff

I like the violence, myself. I'm only too glad to pay extra tax on beer so that I have the privilege of seeing the Browns get violence done to them.

...grumble grumble fucking Art Modell grumble grumble...

[Rick Barton]

Mr. Nice Guy,

I'll sign it. You fix the typo, and I'll sign it.

[prolefeed]

I don't understand this...If it means one shoud do MORE than just vote, then yeah...But voting is PART of what you can do for your candidate...I mean, in the end, he needs votes above all else...

We've had a handful of races in my state where the margin of victory was under 10 votes. One candidate in particular ran three excruciatingly close races, losing two and finally winning the last by a squeaker. So, if you favor one of the candidates in a rematch like that in a small-state-legislature-sized race, then your one vote has an appreciable chance of being the deciding vote. And some primary contests here have such absurdly low turnouts that your vote is almost guaranteed to have a small but measurable chance of being the decisive one.

Where MNG is confused is that he, as a "good" leftist, is thinking in collectivist terms rather than as an individual. That is, sure, if everyone in a certain class of individuals decided to not vote because of this logic, it would swing an election. But, actual individuals vote, and their personal decision almost never matters. Thus, people who think in collectivist ways tend to be the ones who votes elect candidates, pushing a given society based on democracy into more and more collectivist ways, until the consequences of that makes the society go off the rails sooner or later.

So, we're doomed to keep trying every conceivable variation of collectivist government, until multiple catastrophically bitter failures in the distant future finally convince people to forever abandon democracy in favor of a system where 51% of the population can't loot the other 49% -- say, a thoroughly minarchist government where any legislation or appropriation requires a 90% affirmative vote to pass, and all legislation sunsets after 5 years and must then be reauthorized.

[libertreee]

In Nevada we have more delegates for Ron Paul than the straw poll would indicate. The Mormons who came out for Romney often did not want to bother to become delegates.

I do not know if the same thing is true in Maine. I would have preferred a second place or victory, obviously. But, both Romney and McCain have strong New England connections.

The process of the caucus is only the beginning. Next comes the county conventions.

Huckleberry will be the next to drop out, then McCain will drop off, if not out. A Romney win in Maine points once more to a brokered convention.

Ron Paul is raising at least a million dollars today with a goal of 8.5 for the quarter.

[libertreee]

Oh yes, and Ron Paul's new Book, "Revolution, A Manifesto", coming in April, is already a best seller.

[whiskey]

damn that baruch obamawitz

[alisa]

"Mostly, my problem with the report is that it is a caricature of a useful inheritance tax system--a strawman--and a properly implemented system would avoid nearly all of the problems outlined in the report."

I'll buy that. Limit the scope of the program and it'll probably be less damaging.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

prolefeed,
As far as the actual method of appointing officials (if there are any) I suppose elections work well enough, if they're held often enough. I am a bit of a fan of the fictional Bismollian method as well - they use a draft to choose their officials, which would tend to keep away some of the disreputable types who seek out office in a republic. (Though I guess the draft would have to have a refusal allowance built in to keep people from being forced to serve.) Really, I guess almost any method works OK, as long as the officials have very little power and are easy to remove from office.

I like your 90% requirement for a bill to pass and five year sunset pretty well in any event. Other limitations on the size (word count) or scope of a bill could also be worthwhile.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

When I'm drunk, I just make out with fat chicks.

LOL, got dam, LOL.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

RON PAUL GOT CRUSHED BY MITT ROMNEY 52% TO 18.7%.

Jesus Chrysler Eric, almost 19% amd you're whizzing on it? WTF?

My old leftie friend Paige lives in Maine. He's on board for RP. Voted for him several times.

He's an old time New Left radical turned RP whatever-the-hell he is. Walks around saying: I used to be a liberal

He also drove Linda Brisby over to my house so she could write FUCK YOU MIKE in my front lawn with salt. Still denies it, but I know it was him.

My parents were not impressed. Still don't know why they put me on restriction for that. Not like I had a bag of water softener salt in the trunk.

Took a long dam time for the grass to grow back.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

You do not want to go drinking with this guy, but, here is the Kosmik Kid's forecast from two weeks ago:

Meanwhile, Thompson drops out, while Giuliani (the front runner just 3 weeks ago!) is like a drowning man gone down twice and hoping to be rescued off the coast of Florida (and has no money left to buy a life raft), and Huckabee shot his wad in Iowa (again), (and has no money left). And Rush Limbaugh hates McCain, and so does Mark Levin, and they hate Romney only slightly less. My prediction: Rudy Judy and Huckabee drop out, and McCain borrows heavily to stay in. Romney, of course, is rich enough to stay in 4 more years. Romney vs. Paul is David vs. Goliath, but the stone in the sling is the economy, stupid.

So it's Paul vs. Clinton in November. Care to bet on the outcome? If it comes to this, RP will raise so much money from grassroots that even McCain's law couldn't prevent him from winning the presidency.

With this off my chest, I'll sleep well tonight.

[jj]

Winesewer, that's a pipedream I'd like to smoke.

[Ali]

TWC- I really really like your analysis from two weeks ago. You were probably drunk then, though. But it seems to work so far, so I hope you are now drunk regarding your prediction re Paul vs. Clinton. I do not see it happening though.

[Fluffy]

Chris Potter -

My take on Congressional involvement in sports is that the owners are too big of fucking pussies to tell the Congress to go fuck itself.

"Police your sport or we'll police it for you!" is a laughable and empty threat. The Congress is going to police steroids? Give me a fucking break. There are few more obvious steroid users in the country than Barry Bonds and the feds still haven't laid a glove on him after all these years.

Instead of sending George Mitchell out to conduct his inquisition the owners should have told the feds that if they had evidence on a player they should get fucking warrants and investigate them themselves. And if they didn't have enough evidence to get individual warrants against individual players they should shut the fuck up.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Ali, flattery will get you everywhere. How-some-ever, I do not subscribe to the Kosmik Kid theory of how things will pan out. I just thought it was interesting. RP never had a chance, except in comparison to the LP nominee.

Now, about that analysis from two weeks ago. Thankee. Wonder what it was I said.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

BTW, TWC is never drunk just slightly to moderately inebriated.

[Fluffy]

A couple of things about this thread:

Eric, I don't want to hear about your Jewish ancestors, because on your blog you have denied being a Jew and have claimed that Ron Paul coerced you into dressing up and pretending to be a Jew. If you had to pretend, you aren't a Jew, and you therefore can't possibly have any Jewish ancestors.

Second, no one can call Maine for Romney without knowing the identity of every state convention delegate and determining who they are going to vote for. Unless they don't know anything about the process in Maine and just want to make shit up. Why are you using a source that either doesn't know how the process works or just wants to make shit up?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Winesewer, that's a pipedream I'd like to smoke.

Me too, gotta beat the crap outta Oxycodon or anything else the Kosmik Kid has been snorting.

[shrugs]

Warty is still the man with his "RP has gotta stop infecting me with his horrible, horrible optimism."

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Your boy Ron just hired an Israel Hater from the Huffington Post as a top foreign policy Advisor.

I dunno about that, but he hired Don Luskin as his econ advisor. That's a pretty big coup. Had a great piece in WSJ online last week.

Aside from that Luskin is one of the few big players that links to TWC. That makes the whole thing really important.

http://www.poorandstupid.com/2008_01_20_chronArchive.asp#7821097533766722843

[Brandybuck]

Reading over that Third Party Watch thread, it's clear to me that Dondero has the emotional stability of a brain damaged hyena. And he's proud of it.

[Elemenope]

So, we're doomed to keep trying every conceivable variation of collectivist government, until multiple catastrophically bitter failures in the distant future finally convince people to forever abandon democracy in favor of a system where 51% of the population can't loot the other 49%.

So, will these catastrophic bitter failures be before or after we invent the perpetual motion machine, holodeck, and personal robot?

Seriously though, it is as likely that democracies and their damnably collectivist ways (tm) will continue to putter along for a long, long time. I just don't see Switzerland, Norway, or Canada collapsing under mountains of self-produced statist crapulence.

Unless it's *invisible* crapulence. Then, who knows? You might be right. Me, I prefer my political predictions to rest on a body of evidence, if only slightly visible.

It is far more likely that as the ability of humans to produce continues to rise relative to our needs, governing large numbers of people with distributive economics will become easier, not harder. The Libertarian dream will perhaps drown in a sea of technological wonders, with a well fed and pampered consumer class whose every need is provided for, and for whom freedom is just that thing that poor people do before they become rich.

[Andy]

"Eric Dondero | February 2, 2008, 9:15pm | #Do I think Israel was a good idea?

Hey Al, do you think the United States was a good idea?

How about the United Kingdom?

France?

The United Arab Emerites?"

I don't think that any government is a good idea.

If I had to pick one from the list I'd say that the United States of America under the Declaration of Independence and Constitution was the "best" idea on the list, it is just a damn shame that the government had to overstep those bounds and screw everything up.

"Eric Dondero | February 2, 2008, 9:13pm | #

Yup, guilty as charged. My Mother is Jewish. (Father Italian).

So you going to advocate that I get carted off to the gas chambers "Mr. Nice Guy"?

Kind of fits doesn't it. I mean Don Black, David Macko, David Duke and other Ron Paulists advocate 'getting rid of the Jews.' How's it feel to be in that sort of company?"

This from a guy who advocates the mass murder of Muslims.

[wayne]

Here is a proposal: Why not just enact a tax law that identifies the wealthy, say everybody with more than $400,000 in net worth, and simply take everything above that amount. That will leave all of the previously wealthy as middle-class ($400,000 net worth), and won't impact the existing middle-class.

All of the previously wealthy will have to get a job, of course, but considering their first-class educations at elite universities that should not be a problem. Besides, it is morally good to do something productive and we know how the rich, social conservatives are so enamored with moral goodness.

Hillary or Barack will decide how to spend all of the new tax revenue in a way that allows all Americans to participate in prosperity. They could call the whole exercise, "the great leveling".

[wayne]

Joe:
Now with Ron Paul tanking everywhere, we libertarians need to seriously think about getting behind Romney.

Joe, do you consider yourself a Libertarian? I thought you were a self-professed Democrat.

[Bingo]

Yes, over-arching power to arbitrarily decide what constitutes wealth is a great idea, wayne.

[wayne]

Bingo,

Thanks. To be fair, of course, we ought to index the definition of wealth for inflation, and there probably should be an exemption for minorities because they have been systemically discriminated against, hence they are owed some "catching up".

[BakedPenguin]

wayne - Big 'J' Joe is not the same as little 'j' joe.

[Eric Dondero]

And thus you prove you're an Anarchist Andy, and not a libertarian.

[Eric Dondero]

Someone here, who uses a stupid-ass on-line name, and is too much of a yellow bellie to post under his own name, said that "nobody knows who won Maine."

Really?

I'll trust CNN, Politico.com and Real Clear Politics, all of whom are reporting that Romney won overwhelmingly with 52% to McCain's 22% to Paul's 19%.

Actually, to be precise, Ron Paul ended up with 18.7%

[John C. Randolph]

"Of course the tax hikes will only be on the super rich"

That's what they said about the income tax back in 1913.

Every "soak the rich" scheme ends up as a "soak everyone" scheme, since you have inflation constantly moving the goalposts.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

" too much of a yellow bellie to post under his own name"

You don't have a lot of room to gripe about that, do you Rittberg?

-jcr

[Eric Dondero]

Look, you all are obviously Reason-oids who don't ever check out other news blogs. Just about every Blog that matters in politics, is reporting on the Maine results this morning: RCP, Politico.com, Newsmax, HotAir.com and even Drudge.

Doesn't matter that it's "Saturday" or even "Sunday Morning."

These Political Blogs operate 7 days a week.

And if you doubt them, just go to the Maine Governor Secretary of State website.

The near final results are as follows:

Mitt Romney - 52%

John McCain - 22%

Ron Paul - 18.7%

Mike Huckabee - 5%

[John C. Randolph]

" simply take everything above that amount."

Yep, looting at gunpoint is pretty simple. Almost as simple as your mind.

So, what are you going to do if the rich people return fire?

-jcr

[Eric Dondero]

No, I guess I don't have much room to gripe.

Signed...

Eric Dondero Rittberg
Houston, Texas
832-896-9505

[joe]

I want to go back to a point Someone Who Doesn't Want to Lose His Job made earlier:

Someone,

Ain't nothing wrong with the big beautiful girls. Nothing at all.

[Eric Dondero]

For the record:

"Dondero" - Father's name.

"Rittberg" - Adoptive Parents' name.

They're both interchangeable. D comes before R, so I usually use Dondero. But am perfectly fine with Rittberg.

[John C. Randolph]

" Your boy Ron "

... is still in the race, unlike that ignoramus you were pushing.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

"For the record:"

Like anyone cares.

The only reason anyone bothers responding to you is for amusement. It's like popping bubble wrap, except that the bubble wrap provides rather more intellectual challenge.

-jcr

[joe]

For the record,

Below 120 pounds: too bony, don't have the energy or enthusiasm.

120-145 pounds: getting there.

145+: bouncy-bouncy!

[joe]

...that's just for the record.

[Ali]

TWC- I had no idea who Kosmik Kid is and thought you were referring to yourself or something. Anyhow, whoever Kosmik Kid is, I hope he's right. Drunk or not.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

joe, I don't mind a bit of weight on a girl either. Like I said, I lack confidence to engage in the pursuit of most ladies, fat or thin. When I've had a bit of luck, they've always made the first move.

[wayne]

"So, what are you going to do if the rich people return fire?"

Jail them, isn't that what happens to tax cheats now?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

TWC, Your friend's prediction is one of the very few cases in which I think Ron Paul might have a chance of becoming President. Even then, I think his chances wouldn't be good, but Hillary Clinton has some weaknesses which he could exploit.

Of course, I think Kosmik Kid is wrong. My guess is that McCain will be the Republican nominee, and I'd give Obama and Clinton even odds on the Democratic nomination. If it's McCain versus Obama, Obama wins, and if it's McCain versus Clinton, McCain wins. Just a guess, though - I'm no politician.

[Fluffy]

Dondero:

The straw poll in Maine has nothing to do with the process of selecting delegates to go to the national convention.

Romney won the straw poll handily. That is very true.

But that is not the same as winning Maine or securing Maine's delegates.

The delegates are selected at a state convention of people who became state delegates at the caucus after the conclusion of the straw poll.

Most reports from caucus sites indicate that the delegate selection process was not competitive due to caucus-goer apathy and that just about anyone who wanted to be a delegate got to be one.

Whose supporters do you think were the most likely to volunteer?

Sorry to disturb you with, you know, actual information about how the caucus process in Maine works, but until the state convention we won't really know if Romney sweeps all before him by dint of that big straw poll number, or if Paul's people succeeded in their fairly brazen and open attempt to hijack the delegate process in order to ignore the straw poll results.

But I'm sure you're the kind of person who knows this full well already, and is merely choosing to pretend he doesn't know it for the purposes of talking in this thread. That kind of disingenuous behavior would be par for the course for someone who would whore his Jewish identity to score points in this thread, but then disclaim a Jewish identity to score points against Ron Paul [you know, the guy who "ordered" you to lie and "pretend" to be Jewish, lo these many years ago now] on your own blog.

[SIV]

Jail them, isn't that what happens to tax cheats now?

Not if you are the IRS' worst nightmare

[BakedPenguin]

Ron Paul should have given that $500 Don Black money to Wesley Snipes's legal fund. That would have been hilarious.

[wayne]

Snipes still is going to pay more than $17M in taxes, fines, etc. See how easy it will be to just take everything above a "wealthy" limit...

[libertreee]

That's what they said about the income tax back in 1913.

The Income Tax was passed by Populists and Progressives because of the Republican Protective Tariffs and the Spanish American War which they saw as benefitting the wealthy at the expense of the working man.

As said above it was a tax on wealth because the word "income" was equivelant to "profit". It was to be a tax on dividends and profits and on some federally licensed occupations. The idea that wages would be taxed was specifically rejected during the Congressional debates. The Republican Taft wanted it to tax corporations which he feared had been struck down by the Supreme Ct in Pollack.

It was specifically mentioned that a working man's labor diminished his capital, and therefore was not income in the sense they wanted to tax.

Of course the tax on the wealthy also started out as a very small tax with a very large exemption so in that sense it was also a tax only on great wealth. But it was never meant to tax wages at all.

[x,y]

RE: Congress and Spygate

Not all of the state intervention you mentioned was federal. And even if it were, two wrongs don't make a right. The first wrong is the state getting involved in football, for example, handing out taxpayer money for stadiums and restricting access to "public" airwaves. The second wrong -- more of a logical fallacy -- is justifying further intervention on the basis of earlier intervention.

[J sub D]

Chris Potter - Re your February 2, 2008, 10:27pm post.

Anyone have a take on this?
I'll give it a shot.

Think Congress has no business investigating sports?
Yep, that's what I think.

Most NFL teams play in publicly subsidized stadiums,
Not if I had my way, besides they aren't federally funded.

and NFL games are aired over public airwaves controlled by federal licenses.
What does that have to do with anything? The FCC lets Fear Factor, American Idol AND Jerry Springer on the air.

The licenses, among other things, prohibit any pre-arrangement or artifice in what is presented as live competition.
Professional wrestling, anyone?

If a Super Bowl were affected by cheating, that would be a legitimate matter of concern to Congress.
If a Super Bowl, World Series, Stanley Cup or NBA Finals were NOT affected by cheating, I'd probably get religion. Damn,that is sooo stupid.

Plus, the recent lesson learned via baseball and steroids was that Major League Baseball did not clean up its own house until Congress put some pressure on.
I call B/S! The paying customers put pressure on, MLB was compling in a slow bureaucratic way that the federal government is quite familiar with. Congresscritters just jumped on the wagon to showboat and get some free press coverage.

How is that for a response?

[J sub D]

That's complying not compling.

[Eric Dondero]

I'm confused. The Ron Paul people were playing up Maine. Check out NolanChart.com. All sorts of predictions of "Ron Paul's gonna win Maine and show up the National Media." They banked everything on ME.

Now you're telling me that "Maine really isn't such a big deal"?

Does the word "convenient" have any meaning for you?

[Chris Potter]

J sub D, Fluffy, (x,y), swdwtlhj,

I'm pretty much in agreement with you, but I'm just trying to stir the pot.

[Chris Potter]

I'm confused. The Ron Paul people were Eric Dondero was playing up Maine Rudy. Check out NolanChart libertarianrepublican.com. All sorts of predictions of "Ron Paul Rudy's gonna win Maine the nomination and show up the National Media." They He banked everything on ME Rudy.

Now you're telling me that "Maine Rudy dropping out with one delegate really isn't such a big deal"?

Does the word "convenient" have any meaning for you?

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Chris, good luck stirring the pot when the master pot-stirrer-nutjob-troll is in the room already, responding to comments he is imagining that people are making.

[tarran]

Chris, go easy on poor Eric.

He can't go with Ron Paul, so he's hitching his post to a guy promoting socialized medicine and government bailouts of uncompetitive industries.

If McCain should win the nomination, then he can switch to supporting "fiscal cons" like Hillary Clinton, since Romney's policy prescriptions are pretty similar to hers.

I must admit, though, watching him redefine libertarianism to mean socialism is on one level quite entertaining.

[x,y]

Since this is an open thread and it's Super Bowl Sunday, who do you like and why?

I'll be pulling for the Pats to win outright, but I've cast my lot with the G-Men to cover the spread. Brady and Co. have been fantastic to watch all season, but they haven't been playing full-throtle the last few games. The Giants, on the other hand, are hot.

Pats 35, Giants 24.

[joe]

Pats 31, Giants 27.

The Giants match up well against the Patriots, and they are hot.

But the 2007-08 Patriots are the greatest team in the history of the NFL.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Don't follow the football.

[Chris Potter]

joe,

Sweetness, Punky QB, Fridge, Mongo, Samurai Mike, Butthead, LA Mike, Speedy Willie, and Da Coach would beg to differ with you.

[Neu Mejican]

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10601407

Cool new technology for electric cars.

[Neu Mejican]

joe | February 3, 2008, 9:13am | #
For the record,
Below 120 pounds: too bony, don't have the energy or enthusiasm.
120-145 pounds: getting there.
145+: bouncy-bouncy!

Spock agrees with you
http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Nimoy/pages/MaxBeaut.htm

[Chris Potter]

Even if the '07 Pats have a slight edge on the field, they're booooooooooring. In 20 years no one's going to remember Tom Brady's girlfriends or Bill Belichick's hoodie and no-comments in postgame press conferences, much less the even blander other 53 guys on the team. Ditka's going off on tangents in his press conferences talking about Iran-Contra and Cabbage Patch Kids, McMahon's mooning the helicopters and saying New Orleans women were all sluts during the week leading up to the Super Bowl in NO, and of course the SuperBowlShuffle, will live forever in football legend.

[Warty]

I've never cared less about a Super Bowl. I'll be doing anything other than watching it.

[Chris Potter]

Mike Huckabee today said it's a two-man race -- between him and McCain.

[joe]

Chris, you're a Jags fan, right?

That David Garrard fella has an almost Brady-like pocket sense. The way he just shuffles and slides to stay just out of the grasp of the pass rush, without losing his down-the-field concentration - that's what's made Tom Terrific an MVP.

[Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L]

Instead of watching the Super Bowl, I'm watching Raising Arizona.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

joe-you're wrong on the fat chicks, and the Super Bowl (hey, I agree under 120 is often too bony, but 145+, while still great near the lower end of that continuum, gets pretty gross pretty fast).

Pats 28
Giants 17

[Mr. Nice Guy]

One great thing about chunky chicks though, in my experience, is they will are more amenable to letting you put it in their butt more than skinny ones. Gotta love them for that alone actually...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Joe-I've been impressed with Garrad too. Where did that kid play college ball?

Someone-Can't go wrong with the Coens...

[x,y]

MNG,

Garrard went to ECU. He was on Rome is Burning this past week and carried himself very well. I'd never heard him interviewed before that, but it sounds like he has a good head on his shoulders -- which is critical to excelling as a QB in the NFL.

[J sub D]

Since this is an open thread and it's Super Bowl Sunday, who do you like and why?

The Pats will have it sewn up by the end of the 3rd quarter. NY may score once or twice in the 4th to beat the spread (Pats favored by 12-14), but if I were wagering I'd bet the Patriots to cover. That 18-0 record is not due to luck. They are heads and shoulders above anybody else in the NFL this season. Tom Brady being a sixth round draft pick says something uncomplimentary about the experts' ability to predict NFL success. This should be his 4th Super Bowl Ring and he's just 30 years old. Plenty of time for him to get #5 (or more?) and be all alone among starting QBs.

[Kolohe]

Garrad played at ECU.

Patriots 24 Giants 20.

135-155, but also I prefer over 5-7, being tall myself.

LMNOP-

It is far more likely that as the ability of humans to produce continues to rise relative to our needs, governing large numbers of people with distributive economics will become easier, not harder. The Libertarian dream will perhaps drown in a sea of technological wonders, with a well fed and pampered consumer class whose every need is provided for, and for whom freedom is just that thing that poor people do before they become rich.

Interesting observation. This is definitely been the trend for the last century. I also think that this is the central dynamic in the conflict between Alliance vs Browncoat, and would have been explored in detail had they been allowed to continue.

[J sub D]

Cool new technology for electric cars.

Hi tech Leyden jars (nanotubes=geek cool). It may prove to be feasible. I'm skeptical, but hopeful.

[J sub D]

One great thing about chunky chicks though, in my experience, is they will are more amenable to letting you put it in their butt more than skinny ones. Gotta love them for that alone actually...

Dondero, that is an excellent example of why people use pseudonyms on-line rather than their own names. MNG does NOT want that thrown in his face while trying to pick up an ample, buxom female in whatever sleazy gin joint he frequents.

MNG - Warmth in the winter, shade in the summer. What more could a guy ask for?

[Ali]

There is a separate thread for predictions, go to the main H&R page to place predictions.

[J sub D]

One more somewhat relevant observation about full sized women.
This lady was hot to the Nth degree. (She denounced flapper fashion.)

[Brandybuck]

I'm confused. The Ron Paul people were playing up Maine.

Here a big clue for you: campaigns are supposed to be positive. As someone who claims they've worked on campaigns, you should know this. You don't get people out to vote by telling them you're going to lose. Instead you tell everyone that you are going to have a great showing. Sometimes you even hint to the voters that you might even have an outside chance to <gasp> win! Why would you counsel a candiate to lose? I'm SOOO glad you're not working for Ron Paul anymore, because I'm sure that's what you would tell him.

What about your buddy Giuliani! Huh? Since you rate people according to how their candidates score, how should we rate you? Lower than the low, I should guess! But two tiny states into the process you jump ship and start praising Romney. BEFORE Giuliani dropped out! What a rat you are. We Paul supporters are in this for the long haul, but you'll abandon your heroes on a whim.

You sometimes bring up Root as someone you might have to support. But YOU KNOW he can't get more than 2% (and that's being crazy generous). So why would you vote for him? Wouldn't that force you to post sarcastic comments to yourself that you're a loser because he lost?

Signed,
David Johnson

p.s. Note that I signed this with my real name. I really want to know why you supported a loser like Giuliani. You say we are losers for supporting a losing candidate, but doesn't supporting Giuliani make you an even bigger loser, since Ron Paul trounced him so often? And why you would consider supporting a loser like Root? Inquiring minds want to know.

[BakedPenguin]

Funny thing about Garrard - Jack Del Rio got all kinds of crap at the beginning of the year (especially here in FL) for dumping Leftwich and saying Garrard was his guy. As you're well aware, he was getting considerably less crap for that move by the end of the season.

Considering they only beat the Giants by three points a few weeks ago, I don't get that spread. As New Year's is amateur's night for drinking, I suspect the Superbowl is amateur hour for gamblers. Since I don't have the wherewithal to get a phony British address / mail forwarding and set up a gambling account, it's a moot point for me.

Pats 28, Giants 20

[BakedPenguin]

[Mae West] was hot to the Nth degree.

I saw some late 1950's & early 1960's Playboys once, and some of the centerfolds in there would definitely be called fat today.

But not by me.

[J sub D]

I saw some late 1950's & early 1960's Playboys once, and some of the centerfolds in there would definitely be called fat today.

Herr Penguin -
Playboy centerfolds* from Marilyn Monroe through January, 2002. You probably remember the first centerfold you ever got ahold of. You can look it up.

*For nostalgic and scholarly research purposes only. All other uses prohibited. 😉

[Bingo]

For the record,

Below 120 pounds: too bony, don't have the energy or enthusiasm.

120-145 pounds: getting there.

145+: bouncy-bouncy!

Yeah as usual for what joe says, take this and reverse it. Anecdotal evidence suggests short and skinny girls are like wild animals that seem to take pleasure from putting clawmarks in your back and on your chest and...

As a bonus 5'4 and 100 lbs of fury will give you some neat looking tshirts the following day. Now, I need to go looking for some hair of the dog otherwise superbowl sunday will be spent on the bathroom floor..

[Warty]

You probably remember the first centerfold you ever got ahold of.

Not fat chicks. (NSFW)

[BakedPenguin]

J sub - thx. The Internets is a wonderful thing.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

j sub d
What can I say, I'm all for heterosexual sodomy...I guess I'm a cosmotarian 😉

[prolefeed]

joe-you're wrong on the fat chicks, and the Super Bowl (hey, I agree under 120 is often too bony, but 145+, while still great near the lower end of that continuum, gets pretty gross pretty fast).

I think weight is a less than useful way of gauging levels of voluptuousness. If you like 'em tall like I do, pushing 6' tall, 145 pounds is anorexic. And, since I also like athletic women, muscle can add a lot of weight without making them fat. And, where the fat is located makes a big difference. On the breasts or a fine round booty -- good. On a sagging beer-belly, not so much so.

FWIW, I find both voluptuously plump, and hard and athletic, can be very sexy. It's the outliers -- concentration camp skinny and flabbily obese -- that I would rule out.

For me, physical beauty is mostly in the face.

[JW]

Not fat chicks. (NSFW)

How primitive was the past; hair on the naughty bits? Thank god we evolved out of that.

[Chris Potter]

joe,

I'm a Bears fan actually. I was rooting for the Giants and Jags in the playoffs this year, cause I had reason to hate all four of the top seeds (Packers and Colts out of loyalty to the Bears, Romo rubs me the wrong way, Pats threaten 85 Bears as greatest team of all time).

[George Dance]

Speaking of, er, newsletters, I finally got my "Newsletters" FAQ on the subject up on Nolan Chart.
http://www.nolanchart.com/article2435.html

You and Julian are quoted, and Matt Welch (twice), and an old Reason alumnus - Jacob Sullum. Hope you like.

[Sam Grove]

I think we should give Dondero a break.
All things considered, he actually functions at a pretty high level, intelligent but with a certain hyperactive emotional functioning.
Poor impulse control and high reactiveness are to be expected.

[Eric Dondero]

Latest poll numbers have Ron Paul at 2% in Georgia. Perhaps the racist Newsletters really have hurt Paul. Georgia doesn't take too kindly to racists.

[joe]

Cris-think,

I'm a Bears fan actually.

Oh. Um...sorry. I don't have anything nice to say to you about your quarterbacks.

[kwais]

Holy crap on that 3rd party watch blog.

Funny that Dondero talks about people not using their real names online, then he creates a character "Andrew", and does a really really poor job at disguising that it is really Dondero.

It is funny. I think.

[Jon Rowe]

I wonder if he's ever featured Kansas, the most underrated prog-rock band, and America's version of 70's prog rock on these threads. For those of you who don't think Kansas is a real prog rock band, chew on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZzLPf_zyKk&feature=related