Zuma: Zomething Different

Two years ago, South African deputy President Jacob Zuma resigned his office after being charged with financial corruption. Months later he was accused of rape by a dead friend's daughter. During the trial he claimed that he wasn't too worried about her being HIV+ because he took a shower after the sex.

You can guess where this is going: Zuma just won the leadership of the African National Congress and he's the frontrunner for the 2009 election.

Max Boot has some commentary here, and James Kirchick has written in the past about outgoing President Thabo Mbeki's problems (he's clueless about AIDS in a country with 5 million HIV+ people). Mbeki was exceedingly power-hungry, but brilliant. Zuma isn't brilliant. Cato's Marian Tupy and former South African opposition leader Tony Leon are pleading but not optimistic:

The new president should have the courage to adopt economic reforms that result in faster economic growth. South Africa's money-guzzling, public-private corporations, like South African Airways, which gets billions of rands in annual subsidies, ought to be privatized.

The new president should also liberalize the labor market. In spite of a growing economy, rigid labor laws keep unemployment stubbornly high, at 26%. Worryingly, the number of people in South Africa who live in absolute poverty doubled between 1994 and 2007. Unfortunately, Zuma may be too beholden to the Congress of South African Trade Unions, which was very supportive of his candidacy, to do what is necessary.

Leon's experience was illustrative of a South African problem, though. He led the Democracy Alliance, the old white anti-Apartheid party, and drove it past the old National Party to become the official opposition. And yet as a white neoliberal with a few flashes of libertarianism, he was called "patronizing," and his party couldn't become a real competitor to the ANC.

Terrible headline explained here.

Comments

[Episiarch]

Terrible headline, indeed.

South Africa is a mess. But that's sort of what you get when you oppress a huge portion of your population for a really long time. The American South was a mess for a while too (they also had to recover from war, though) even with a lot of aid from the North.

[LarryA]

The American South was a mess for a while too (they also had to recover from war, though) even with a lot of aid from the North.

Aid from the North? There's a reason damnyankee is still one word down here.

[Episiarch]

Aid from the North? There's a reason damnyankee is still one word down here.

Reconstruction didn't go the way Lincoln wanted it since he was six feet under, but there was some aid.

[Episiarch]

Disclaimer: The above comment is not an endorsement of Lincoln.

[JW]

With this victory, Zuma becomes a shoo-in for the Presidency. Zuma was fired as Deputy President over charges of corruption, and still faces trial over those allegations. He has beaten charges of rape in the past (his defense was that the woman was asking for it by wearing a short skirt in his house).

Can't they just elect Bono and get it over with?

Wow, S.A. really is fucked. Then again, so is the bulk of Africa.

[ed]

It has always been thus.

[Jozef]

his defense was that the woman was asking for it by wearing a short skirt in his house

Nice to know there are more morally corrupt countries in the US where such a person would never make it farther than having an 8PM talk show on FOX news or have a show on Hot Air.

[S. African]

Amazing the colonialist libertarians in this group. Sure things were bad in the past. And yet you wouldn't use that as an excuse for reprehensible hell-in-a-handbasket actions by your current government, would you? Why do so for South Africa?

It's long been my opinion that you libertarian whiteys still feel so guilty about race relations that you hold a double standard for Africa. So long as the little Hitler running Zimbabwe is a black Hitler, it's somehow more acceptable than British colonialism. Well I'm here to tell you it's not.

People bleed as profusely under a black boot heel as a white one. The past doesn't excuse the present. Zuma is a dangerous, evil man. The past is no excuse for the present.

[Cesar]

It's long been my opinion that you libertarian whiteys still feel so guilty about race relations that you hold a double standard for Africa. So long as the little Hitler running Zimbabwe is a black Hitler, it's somehow more acceptable than British colonialism. Well I'm here to tell you it's not.

You obviously don't read this comment board (or magazine) if you think theres no criticism of Mugabwe here.

[R C Dean]

But that's sort of what you get when you oppress a huge portion of your population for a really long time.

I'm trying to think here. Isn't there another country whose population was oppressed for generations that is struggling to establish a functional society and government. I swear there is. Starts with an I . . .

[S. African]

Episarc: South Africa is a mess. But that's sort of what you get when you oppress a huge portion of your population for a really long time. The American South was a mess for a while too (they also had to recover from war, though) even with a lot of aid from the North.

What does this sound like, Cesar?

[Taktix?]

I'm trying to think here. Isn't there another country whose population was oppressed for generations that is struggling to establish a functional society and government. I swear there is. Starts with an I . . .

Isle of Man?

[Cesar]

What does this sound like? How about this? Or maybe this?

[S. African]

And, in defense of the American South:

The American South was a mess for a while too

Oh no it wasn't a "mess for a while." It was burned down and raped--we're talking civilian towns and farms--by the North. Annihilation of a people does take some time to get over. General Grant would have made many of my African dictators proud.

[Cesar]

Oh, and good job S. African for not only bringing up the racial angle in record time, but also for getting the thread Godwined even though the comments hadn't even reached double digits. Good job!

[S. African]

Cesar,
My gripe isn't with reason, just with some comments on the board. I wasn't trying to rile you up. I just wanted to say that it's okay to call a dictator evil, based on the "content of his character" rather than the "color of his skin." It happens so surprisingly seldom it makes me mad.

[Cesar]

The South was messed up even before the civil war. A feudal economy based on human slavery isn't sustainable and its going to have a very rough transition to a free, capitalist economy sooner or later.

[S. African]

Is race not to be talked about? Come, come. Where race is used as an excuse for the evil actions of a leader (Mugabe, Zuma, etc), I see no reason for not discussing it. Do you?

[robc]

It happens so surprisingly seldom it makes me mad.

It happens 43,728 times in every single Mugabe or Chavez thread. How much more do you want it to happen?

[Cesar]

S. African, please don't try to say with a straight face that Apartheid has no lasting, adverse affects on South Africa. Because it does.

[S. African]

Iraq was messed up before the war. But I don't see you defending Bush's actions. And Bush acted very, very judiciously compared to Saint Abe.

No, if you've spent any time in the south, it's pretty clear that it was raped. It's my opinion--and simply an opinion--that race relations would have improved far faster without a civil war. If the North was committed to abolition rather than slavery, they would have freed all slaves and made the north a sanctuary for fleeing refugees. This would have bankrupted the South as its oppressed work force moved North. But they didnt and didn't. The industry in the North was more interested in stopping secession and hobbling southern competition than they were in abolishing slavery.

[Episiarch]

S. African, you seem confused. Who on this thread has said "it's OK, he's just a darkie?"

[JW]

S. African--You really must not come here that often to hold these opinions.

[S. African]

S. African, please don't try to say with a straight face that Apartheid has no lasting, adverse affects on South Africa.

I guess you must resort to putting words into my mouth since you've lost the argument? I've not defended apartheid. I hate South African oppression of all shapes and sizes as much as I hate Northern Aggression of all colors.

[Episiarch]

as much as I hate Northern Aggression of all colors

What is this, 1861?

[Cesar]

No, if you've spent any time in the south, it's pretty clear that it was raped. It's my opinion--and simply an opinion--that race relations would have improved far faster without a civil war.

As a life long Southerner, I can say thats pretty much bull shit. Every leader of the Confederacy wished not only to preserve slavery indefinitely, but to expand into South America to have a "slave Empire". Read the speeches of the secession commissioners sometime.

They seceded precisely because a leader had been elected from a party which clearly stated slavery was not permanent, and must be put on the road to extinction at some future date.

[S. African]

JW: Forgive me for being libertarian.

I replied to an offensive statement that it's understandable that South Africa would have such fucked up leaders since they have been oppressed in the past.

Instead of erecting straw men, why doesn't someone tell me what is offensive or unlibertarian about my positions?

[Taktix?]

I hate South African oppression of all shapes and sizes as much as I hate Northern Aggression of all colors.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we've acquired a new troll!

Now get in line with the rest of the idiots, you'll get your turn. Just practice calling us Nazis while you're waiting...

[Episiarch]

The industry in the North was more interested in stopping secession and hobbling southern competition than they were in abolishing slavery.

No, Lincoln was obsessed with preserving the Union. Ending slavery was a bonus.

[Taktix?]

I replied to an offensive statement that it's understandable that South Africa would have such fucked up leaders since they have been oppressed in the past.

Instead of erecting straw men, why doesn't someone tell me what is offensive or unlibertarian about my positions?

Well, for one, you're assumption that anyone should give a fuck if you're offended...

[Episiarch]

I replied to an offensive statement that it's understandable that South Africa would have such fucked up leaders since they have been oppressed in the past.

No, you incorrectly interpreted that statement, which in fact was that South Africa has a fucked up political system and culture because a white minority oppressed a black majority for a long time and the distrust and resentment will be around for a long time, making relations difficult and allowing shitty, corrupt assholes like Zuma to use their black skin as a shield from criticism.

Understand now, Easily Offended Dude?

[JW]

I hate South African oppression of all shapes and sizes as much as I hate Northern Aggression of all colors.

Dude. The South lost. 140 years ago. Get over it already.

[S. African]

As a life long Southerner, I can say thats pretty much bull shit. Every leader of the Confederacy wished not only to preserve slavery indefinitely, but to expand into South America to have a "slave Empire". Read the speeches of the secession commissioners sometime.

Word. We libertarians, at least the ones from way down south, believe that it is unlibertarian to rape and destroy the property and persons of a civilian population because their leaders wish one thing or another. Why don't you re-read my comments. I hate southern slavery a lot (hmm, about as much as I detest northern aggression). I didn't and will not defend it. But I won't worship the yankee icons either. The leaders of the north were evil men who would be held up for war crimes today, and there's no getting around it.

[Cesar]

I'm sorry, but in 1860 I would've sided with the capitalist, free labor civilization. Not a feudal, aristocratic slave society.

[J sub D]

S. African,

"The fucking civil war is over. You lost! Get over it!"

If it makes you feel better, I got sucker punched in a Mississippi bar for saying exactly that.

[S. African]

No, you incorrectly interpreted that statement, which in fact was that South Africa has a fucked up political system and culture because a white minority oppressed a black majority for a long time

... And Nazi German had a fucked up political system and culture because the American and British Allied powers of WWI fucked it up so well at the treaty of Versailles? Wrong. Regardless of the historical circumstances, excuse of evil is a bad excuse.

[Cesar]

... And Nazi German had a fucked up political system and culture because the American and British Allied powers of WWI fucked it up so well at the treaty of Versailles? Wrong.

Nope, that'd be at least partly right.

[sage]

I remember hearing that Zima woudn't show up on a breathalizer. Never tried to find out.

[JW]

Regardless of the historical circumstances, excuse of evil is a bad excuse.

Let me say it succinctly:

NO ONE'S EXCUSING ANYTHING. REALLY.

Seriously, read the comments a bit more carefully or just quit trolling. Sheesh.

[Taktix?]

Nice, I called the Godwin at 10:18. Link Here

Thank you, thank you...

[SugarFree]

With this thread and the anarchist asswipes to other day, the HFCS eruptions and Scientologist-level paranoid seizure over psychiatric meds...

It is National Project Your Delusions On Libertarians Month? Did I miss the flyer that went around work?

[S. African]

I'm sorry, but in 1860 I would've sided with the capitalist, free labor civilization. Not a feudal, aristocratic slave society.

If such a society existed, I would applaud your sentiment. But it didn't. Hate to break it to you, Cesar, but the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the Southern slaves.

"The Emancipation Proclamation didn't include slaves in the border states and in some southern areas under the North's control, such as Tennessee and parts of Virginia and Louisiana. Although no slaves were actually freed by the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, it did lead to the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. The 13th Amendment became a law on December 18, 1865, and ended slavery in all parts of the United States."

[S. African]

It is National Project Your Delusions On Libertarians Month? Did I miss the flyer that went around work?

Name calling is always a good way to win an argument.

[JW]

I second the Godwin.

Nazis. Freakin' Illinois Nazis!

[Cesar]

If such a society existed, I would applaud your sentiment. But it didn't. Hate to break it to you, Cesar, but the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the Southern slaves.

I never talked about the Emancipation Proclamation.

Maybe they don't teach American History 101 in South Africa, but in 1860 two divergent civilizations had formed on the North American continent. One was an industrializing, capitalist nation based on free labor. The other was an agrarian, aristocratic, feudal slave society. Got it?

[Taktix?]

S. African,

Since you're new here, lemme 'splain it to ya. Most of the people on this board actually know about history, and some even studied it. So if you think bringing out US History 101 factoids like "the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the Southern slaves" is going to zing anyone, you're sorely mistaken.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd realize the Executive Branch (at the time) did not have the authority to make such a bold change in policy, and that the Emancipation Proclamation was more of a military tactic.

Please contribute to the conversation or go back to LGF or wherever the hell you came from.

[Episiarch]

"My name is Ash S. African and I am a slave troll."

Since I completely explained that I in no way excused "evil", yet he continues to argue that, I must conlude the obvious: the dude is a troll or wants to argue with the voices in his head using us as a proxy.

[Taktix?]

to argue with the voices in his head using us as a proxy.

That sucks for him, all the voices in my head are in agreement. It's like a choir...

[John]

Interesting how so many people excuse the appalling record of post-colonial Africa becuase of colonialism. Of course no one ever does that in other contexts. Asia was every bit as much of a victim of colonialism as Africa. Yet, some of the worst victims, South Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia are more successful and free than any country in Africa. No one seems to blame Chinese oppression on colonialism.

Twenty years ago the ANC said the South African government was a racist police state that needed to be overthrown. The South African government said the ANC was a communist thug organization that if ever allowed to take power would turn South Africa into a poverty ridden tin pot dictatorship. Sadly, they both appear to have been right.

[Cesar]

John-

East Asia came out of colonialism with homogeneous states that reflected the facts on the ground. China, Korea, and Vietnam are real historic nations, not the fabrications made up by a bunch of men sitting around a table in London or Paris. Its why they've managed to avoided the number of civil wars that have ravaged Africa.

If, say, Vietnam was merged with southern China in some artificial nation, watch the sparks fly.

[Cesar]

BTW, you're right that theres no good option. Apartheid was barbaric, and the ANC are a bunch of crooks.

What they probably need is a benevolent dictatorship until they learn how to govern themselves. Which, btw, is what South Korea and Taiwan did before becoming functioning democracies.

[J sub D]

Of course no one ever does that in other contexts. Asia was every bit as much of a victim of colonialism as Africa.

John, I'm pretty sure that many posters here have pointed that conundrum out. Cesar and myself for certain. Any insights?

[J sub D]

Hi Cesar. Hoping your festive season goes well.

[JW]

What they probably need is a benevolent dictatorship until they learn how to govern themselves.

Just for the record, I am available for this job. I only need to give 2 weeks notice to my current benevolent dictatorship.

[John]

"East Asia came out of colonialism with homogeneous states that reflected the facts on the ground. China, Korea, and Vietnam are real historic nations, not the fabrications made up by a bunch of men sitting around a table in London or Paris. Its why they've managed to avoided the number of civil wars that have ravaged Africa."

Yes and no. There are sizable and despised Chinese minorities in most of Southeast Asia. When the late 1990s Asian economic crisis hit, there were mobs that burned down Chinese neighborhoods all over Southeast Asia.

[Episiarch]

Hey, let's merge China and Japan! Sparks will fly, reverse-Nanking-style!

[John]

J Sub D,

I think that Africa may be a victim of slavery as much as colonialism. Think about it, West Africa suffered hundreds of years of its most fit people being exported to the Middle East and America as slaves. That had to have devistating effects on the society and the genetic make up of society. You are only as good as the people who make up your society. Perhaps maybe the best and brightest of Africa ended up on the shores of America as slaves?

[J sub D]

West Africa suffered hundreds of years of its most fit people being exported to the Middle East and America as slaves. That had to have devistating effects on the society and the genetic make up of society.

Gotta disagree there. It seems to this uneducated lad that your most "genetically" successful people would be the least likely to end up as slaves. Call it a wash, at worst. I just don't see any sort of brain drain, genetic or otherwise, resulting from the slave trade affecting Africa into the 21st century.

[Episiarch]

Think about it, West Africa suffered hundreds of years of its most fit people being exported to the Middle East and America as slaves.

No way. Remember, most African slaves were provided to the white slavers by other Africans who had defeated them. So most slaves were actually the losers of intertribal warfare. Africa's problem is that it is intensely tribal, not brain drain.

[GinSlinger]

S. African

Try these own for size.

The state constitutions of: Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

The Northwest Land Ordinance

The Missouri Compromise

Oregon's state constitution

California's state constitution

Slavery was outlawed north of the Mason-Dixon Line, north of the Ohio River, north of the 36-30 parallel in the LA Purchase (lone exception Missouri), Maine, Oregon, and California prior to 1861.

The North was, historically, a safe haven for runaway slaves until 1850 when the South demanded passage of the Fugitive Salve Act as a condition for the admittance of a free CA.

There were two Americas prior to the Civil War; a free North, and an enslaved South.

[John]

"Gotta disagree there. It seems to this uneducated lad that your most "genetically" successful people would be the least likely to end up as slaves. Call it a wash, at worst. I just don't see any sort of brain drain, genetic or otherwise, resulting from the slave trade affecting Africa into the 21st century."

Not necessarily. Slavery was ussually the result of losing a war. Just because your side loses doesn't mean they don't have some smart people. Further, both sides are eventually going to lose sometime. When one side does lose, who are you going to sell as slaves, the weak and the stupid or the strong and the fertile? Over the course of a few hundred years, isn't it possible that every side decimates the other through slavery? Yeah, my side wins this year and we enslave the best and the brightest of our enemies but eventually we lose a war and our best and brightest get shipped off to the Americas. Eventually, we all lose.

[Cesar]

John, did you ever read Guns, Germs, and Steel? It gives pretty good reasons for Africa's underdevelopment historically compared to Europe, the Middle East, and Asia without resorting either to scientific racism or leftist platitudes about colonialism and the Evil White Man.

[John]

"John, did you ever read Guns, Germs, and Steel? It gives pretty good reasons for Africa's underdevelopment historically compared to Europe, the Middle East, and Asia without resorting either to scientific racism or leftist platitudes about colonialism and the Evil White Man."

I did. I found it to be fairly convincing for say 200 hundred years ago. But we have had a good fifty or so years of post colonial Africa and enormous technological aide. The disadvantages Africa had should have at least started to be overcome by now. Instead, Africa is in worse shape now that it was under colonialism.

Further I don't consider, slavery and resulting brain drain to be a racist explanation. If you herded off the strongest of any society for a few hundred years, God only knows what would be left for those left behind.

[Aresen]

Sadly, they both appear to have been right.

John wins the thread.

[DavidAlex]

Some (hopfully) unloaded questions from a person who hasn't read much on the history of Africa or slavery.

were slaves the best?
were the ones who were more physically fit the brightest?
Is the definition of "the best and brightest" that 17th or 18th century slavers would use the same as the one we would use to assess those qualified to run a functioning 21st century society?
How extensive was the forced exodus from Africa? After a certain point did slave-trade become self-sustaining domestically, and if so when?
If there was a brain drain, did it effect parts of Africa more than others and if so can you trace these disparities to disparities in how well those areas or societies function, how stable and wealthy they are?

[Jerry]

The ANC was a communist thug organization. They might as well still be. I wonder if Zuma is gonna 'outfox' Mugabe.

[Grand Chalupa]

Good thing we got rid of that damn apartheid government. Who could've had the foresight to predict that a black run government would turn into a shit hole with Marxists winning elections, and crime and AIDS rate unthinkable in the rest of the world?

The White South Africans in the latter half of the twentieth century had nothing to do with original founding. If we had any decency in the West we would allow them refuge status.

[J sub D]

DavidAlex,

Good questions. I'm too ignorant of the specifics in the African slave trade to do anything but speculate. That is, talk out of my ass. I'm not sure anybody alive today knows the intricacies of the African slave trade 1450-1850.

[Grand Chalupa]

Here's a talk by John Derbyshire, Jared Taylor and a token black guy. The only sane discussions of race occur on the fringes of our society.

http://www.amren.com/media/Race-Cons/Race-Cons.htm

[J sub D]

The White South Africans in the latter half of the twentieth century had nothing to do with original founding. If we had any decency in the West we would allow them refuge status.

That may not be the stupidest thing you've ever posted, Chalupa. But it's definitely worthy of consideration for that dubious honor.

[Cesar]

Its official: Grand Chalupa has just stolen the title of "World's Darkest White Supremacist" from Michelle Malkin. He now holds the crown.

[Grand Chalupa]

That may not be the stupidest thing you've ever posted, Chalupa. But it's definitely worthy of consideration for that dubious honor.

Yes, and I'm sure you'll be moving to a black run country to enjoy modern life with black inventions any day now.

[Grand Chalupa]

Malkin is a whole lot darker than me, and if anything I'm a yellow supremicist.

[Cesar]

Yes she is darker than you Chalupa, but not nearly as much of a racial collectivist.

[John]

DavidAlex,

Those are all good questions. I am not sure the answers and I don't claim that slavery is the ultimate answer. I just think that it is something worth considering. It would be interesting if a professional historian would tackle the questions you raise. I would be interested to hear the answers to them. In this political climate that is unlikly to happen.

[Grand Chalupa]

The two main anti-racists have come out quickly. Now all we need is iih to ask a few questions, Neu Mejican to post a ten thousand page paper he just found on google, and maybe Joe to tell us how all this proves the moral superiority of liberalism.

It never gets old, meanwhile, white famers in South Africa are getting exterminated...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Farmer_Murders. If whites were killing blacks, think there might be an international reaction to this?

[Episiarch]

Malkin is a whole lot darker than me, and if anything I'm a yellow supremicist.

I can also say with a great deal of confidence that she is way hotter than you, too.

How do you know what he looks like, Cesar? Did he used to post a link to a site or something? Because now I'm curious.

[Cesar]

How do you know what he looks like, Cesar? Did he used to post a link to a site or something? Because now I'm curious.

No, but he did reveal he is Palestinian. Try not to fall out of your chair laughing.

[Grand Chalupa]

No, but he did reveal he is Palestinian. Try not to fall out of your chair laughing.

Tell me, mister anti-collectivist, what views am I allowed to have? Should I pray to Allah too?

[Cesar]

Tell me, mister anti-collectivist, what views am I allowed to have? Should I pray to Allah too?

Well, since "Allah" is just Arabic for "God", and since your Christian, I'd expect you would if you go to a Mennonite Church.

Its just funny--your a member of one of the races that (according to you) are genetically inferior.

[Grand Chalupa]

Well, since "Allah" is just Arabic for "God", and since your Christian, I'd expect you would if you go to a Mennonite Church.

Its just funny--your a member of one of the races that (according to you) are genetically inferior.

Why don't you think it's funny that John Derbyshire, or Richard Lynn, or any other white person who believes in the race/iq connection thinks that Asians are smarter than whites?

Could it be that deep down, you believe that only whites are capable of rational analysis of facts and non-whites only capable of excuse making and wishful thinking?

That seems more racist to me than anything I've ever posted.

[Cesar]

Chalupa-

I would respond to you, but Arabs have low IQs!

[Episiarch]

No, but he did reveal he is Palestinian. Try not to fall out of your chair laughing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You ever watch Dave Chappelle's show, GC? Maybe not 'cuz he's genetically inferior, but there's a skit that might hit home for you.

[Annonomo]

Why don't you think it's funny that John Derbyshire, or Richard Lynn, or any other white person who believes in the race/iq connection thinks that Asians are smarter than whites?

HA, don't expect him to answer. He obviously expects everybody except whites to only be able to look at evidence through the prism of racial identity.

[Mike]

I think some of Grand Chalupa's statements are over the top, but unlike Cesar I don't think he's ever said that a single individual of a race should have a certain opinion, regardless of what he thinks about overall group differences.

And I'm white, Cesar, so let me know if I'm allowed to have this opinion before you respond.

[Cesar]

HA, don't expect him to answer. He obviously expects everybody except whites to only be able to look at evidence through the prism of racial identity.

Wow Annonomo, you found me out!

I hate all whites (gabachos) and do my best to deprive you of any racial identity. This will make it easier to finish the work my masters in the MexicanGovernment have sent me here to do. Namely, deprive you of your Aryan birthright through use of EvilLiberalProfessors and the CorporateMedia.

Soon you will wake up one day, and it will be too late. Budweiser will be an import beer, you shall all be forced to take naps in the afternoon, and every McDonalds shall be a TacoBell! ?Viva La Raza!

/end snark

[Cesar]

And I'm white, Cesar, so let me know if I'm allowed to have this opinion before you respond.

When did I ever say, anywhere, that people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions? You can link to Stormfront for all I care, but I'll still call you an asshole.

For the record, I think looking at things through the prism of "racial identity" is bad for any race. I have plenty of animus for the NAACP, believe me.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

"And I'm white, Cesar, so let me know if I'm allowed to have this opinion before you respond."

actually, you're not allowed to have an opinion, not due to race or something silly like that.

IT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE LAMEST HANDLE EVAR.

[Mike]

When did I ever say, anywhere, that people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions?

You didn't say people weren't allowed to express their opinion, but you said it's "funny" that Chalupa thinks that on average Europeans have higher IQs than Arabs. So he asked very reasonabley, why isn't it "funny" that John Derbyshire thinks Asians have higher IQs than whites?

You obviously implied that there are certain opinions that are not acceptable to people based on their race. Or at least, for Arabs, and not for whites.

[Episiarch]

Cesar, just tell him "por que no te callas", and claim to be the KingOfSpain secretly manipulating the MexicanGovernment.

Oh wait, SpanishPeople from Spain are "white" so that wouldn't work.

[Episiarch]

But wait! Arabs controlled half of Spain for 700 years, so maybe there's some Arab in Juan Carlos somewhere.

[Cesar]

So he asked very reasonabley, why isn't it "funny" that John Derbyshire thinks Asians have higher IQs than whites?

Because John Derbyshire is still pretty close to the top of the hierarchy.

Asians score better on average, but whites still have more people with very high IQs.

Meanwhile, if we adopted the kind of racial immigration policies Chalupa has advocated, he'd be living in a tent on the West Bank. Thats why I think its funny.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

MIKE ACTUALLY LIKES DEF LEOPARD - WE HAVE PICTURES!

HE ALSO BROKE THE NOOWBIE ROOLZ AND HAD SOME PREMATURE INDIGNATION.

[el profesor er?tico]

Enough about IQ...

Who are the sexiest people on the planet?

Koreans, Irish, doctors?

[Episiarch]

Enough about IQ...

Who are the sexiest people on the planet?

I are. All of I are.

[J sub D]

Who are the sexiest people on the planet?

For women, 1/2 Chineses, 1/2 Polish. Trust me, the genes merge better than the cuisines.

[John]

"Who are the sexiest people on the planet?"

I only care about the female half of that equation and the answer is simple; the Czech Republic.

[Mike]

Because John Derbyshire is still pretty close to the top of the hierarchy.

Asians score better on average, but whites still have more people with very high IQs.

I think I remember reading a black author, maybe it was Thomas Sowell, saying that he believed that there may be a link between race and iq.

I guess if an Arab believing in racial differences is funny, a black person with the same opinion must be high comedy to you.

I don't agree with Chalupa's theoried, but I think people should be able to look at the evidence and make any kind of conclusion that they want, regardless of their race without being subject to ridicule. And I think that last comment in particular pretty well establishes that if anybody is the racist here, its you.

[Cesar]

Mike-

I don't doubt there are differences. I doubt the differences are genetic. Thomas Sowell doesn't believe they are genetic differences, quite the opposite actually.

Now, if, say, Sowell said blacks have lower IQ scores and then advocated that the 13th Amendment should be repealed or Jim Crow be re-instated because of their test scores--that would indeed be comedy gold.

And I think that last comment in particular pretty well establishes that if anybody is the racist here, its you.

I only directed at Chalupa what he gives to everyone else. When Neu Mejican said he didn't think IQ racial differences were genetic and called him out on it, you know what he did? He assumed Neu Mejican was latino and went on a tirade about how hes just jealous because he has a low. So I'm just throwing back at Chalupa what hes thrown at other people.

Let me try again. Chalupa advocated on several times cutting off all non-white or non-east Asian immigration. That would mean cutting out his on family. He would not be here right now if we had pre-1965 immigration law. Thats what is funny to me. I'll repeat--I think its funny that Chalupa advocates an immigration policy that excludes himself and his entire family. Understand? Its the same kind of comedy I find when rich Hollywood actors proclaim they're Marxists, or when John Edwards talks of "Two Americas" and proceeds to build a gigantic mansion.

[Mike]

Let me try again. Chalupa advocated on several times cutting off all non-white or non-east Asian immigration. That would mean cutting out his on family. He would not be here right now if we had pre-1965 immigration law. Thats what is funny to me. I'll repeat--I think its funny that Chalupa advocates an immigration policy that excludes himself and his entire family. Understand? Its the same kind of comedy I find when rich Hollywood actors proclaim they're Marxists, or when John Edwards talks of "Two Americas" and proceeds to build a gigantic mansion.

Nice try, but this wasn't about his thoughts on immigration.

This is you...

Its just funny--your a member of one of the races that (according to you) are genetically inferior.

His views that Arabs are "genetically inferior" is what you think is funny. Only when people started calling you out on your bigotry did you switch to attacking his immigration policy, rather than scientific positions. You also said being higher up in the racial heirarchy makes one immune from this criticism.

Sorry, there's no way you can talk yourself out of this.

[Grand Chalupa]

Because John Derbyshire is still pretty close to the top of the hierarchy.

Asians score better on average, but whites still have more people with very high IQs.

Wow, good thing someone with a higher IQ got you to answer the question. Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen how big of a jackass you are.

[J sub D]

Only when people started calling you out on your bigotry did you switch to attacking his immigration policy, rather than scientific positions. You also said being higher up in the racial heirarchy makes one immune from this criticism.

Sorry Cesar. Since you've been proven a bigot, I can't be your internet friend anymore. Goodbye forever!

[Cesar]

His views that Arabs are "genetically inferior" is what you think is funny.

Yes, thats part of it. Hes also called himself a white nationalist before, and hes not white. Hes like the blind black Klansman. If you don't think thats funny (or at least ironic, or weird) nothing will.

We're going in circles, so if you think its normal to be an Arab that thinks Arabs are genetically inferior--not only thinking that, but actively advocating policies that discriminate against them--well, more power to you. I really have nothing else to add.

[Cesar]

Sorry Cesar. Since you've been proven a bigot, I can't be your internet friend anymore. Goodbye forever!

Clearly, Michiglanders have low IQs. (kidding)

[Annonomo]

Hey Cesar, you're at least partly Mexican, right? Say one day that science proved, 100% that there were racial differences in intelligence. You simply could not except it, on account of your race, no matter what?

Also, I have a white friend who supports affirmative action. She supports descriminatory policies against herself! Don't people realize that there opinions need to be determined by their ancestory?

[J sub D]

Clearly, Michiglanders have low IQs. (kidding)

Goddam McWetback. (likewise)

[J sub D]

Cesar, you ain't getting anywhere with these folks. We've discussed these issues on these threads numerous times, I know better. Don't even respond. I mistakenly responded to a Chalupa post upthred. Oops, no need to repeat that fuckup.

[Cesar]

Hey Cesar, you're at least partly Mexican, right? Say one day that science proved, 100% that there were racial differences in intelligence. You simply could not except it, on account of your race, no matter what?

I'd accept it. But were not even close to that.

We do know, there are differences in IQ (note: not the same as intelligence). Theres debate as to what its caused by, exactly. I go with the conclusions of the aforementioned Thomas Sowell and Jared Diamond, myself.

Also, I have a white friend who supports affirmative action. She supports descriminatory policies against herself!

Well, since shes female--and women benefit from affirmative action--shes actually benefiting from it.

But for the sake of argument if theres a white male the supports affirmative action, yes I think its weird. They're doing it out of some kind of liberal guilt complex I can't begin to understand. Affirmative action is, indeed, discrimination against white males, and like any other discrimination should be ended. You would never hear me say otherwise.

[Cesar]

I'd like to add, that even if it were proven 100% beyond a doubt there was a racial hierarchy of intelligence, accepting it wouldn't mean I then endorse government-run eugenics or racial discrimination.

[Isaac Bartram]

The fact that there are racial differences in average IQ does not really instruct us on what assumptions to make about any individual of a particular race.

[prolefeed]

Colonialism has been over in Africa for about a half century. That is plenty of time for people to recover from whatever devastation they suffered and rebuild (see post WWII Germany and Japan, South Korea, etc.)

If things are screwed up in any given nation in Africa, the fault is solely on the heads of the residents. Similarly, any member of an ethnic group in America blaming their current situation on oppression that happened generations ago is trying to duck their own culpability. (See stats on the success of Asian-Americans, whose ancestors suffered plenty of discrimination).

FWIW, South Africa has been a success story relative to its neighbors, though the thug referenced in this thread could turn that around in a hurry.

[prolefeed]

Say that one day that science proved, 100% scientific evidence provided strong support for a theory that there were racial differences in intelligence. You simply could not except accept it, on account of your race, no matter what?

Also, I have a white friend who supports affirmative action. She supports descriminatory discriminatory policies against herself! Don't people realize that there their opinions need to be determined by their ancestory ancestry?

Don't usually try to correct posts, since I've done my share of them, but occasionally the contents of a post just beg to be mocked. 😉

[Cesar]

The fact that there are racial differences in average IQ does not really instruct us on what assumptions to make about any individual of a particular race.

Thank you, Issac. Apparently some people find that a hard concept to understand.

[Rebecca]

God tests us when he makes us endure one intellectual dwarf (Weigel) quoting another (Kirchik) on their totally CLUELESS, condescending, colonialist notions of how a moral giant(Mbeki)handled AIDS in post-apartheid South Africa.

You know nothing Weigel. Try to either A, conceal your ignorance or B, do some real research.

Everything you think you know about Mbeki and AIDS is wrong. Your figures are preposterous.
Your underlying assumptions about black south Africans, HIV, sex, spread, and remedy, are loathesome.

There are two intellectual biographies of Mbeki published in the past year that both document Mbeki's extraordinary concern, investment, deep research, personal commitment, and deep conflicts on the matter of HOW BEST TO TREAT ILLNESS IN SOUTH AFRICA AND HOW TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN OLD DISEASES AND AIDS AND TREAT EACH ACCORDINGLY. Can't you READ?

Has anybody non-white ever written for REASON?

Is there anybody anywhere near this bastion of liberations who has any kind of clue about South Africa, or who has ever set foot there, or who has ever read a word Mbeki has written or spoken?

Here's a test question Weigel: In the register of causes of death in South Africa for 2006, where does HIV/AIDS fall?

Another one: What is your source for claiming that there are 5 million HIV positives in South Africa?

One more: True or false: ARV regimens are available to any South African that wants them, for free, through hospitals.

You and Kirchick are racist enough that you begrudge Mbeki for keeping the cell poison AZT
away from his people in the late 1990s?

Be ashamed.

Mbeki is 100% vindicated on HIV/AIDS. You just can't handle it.

[Rebecca]

Three weeks ago, Stats South Africa released its latest community population study indicating that in the past ten years, the population of South Africa (allegedly the center of the AIDS epidemic in Africa) had grown 20% - from 40 million to 48 million.

[Rebecca]

P.S.

9/11 was an inside job!

[Rebecca]

http://www.statssa.gov.za/Publications/P03093/P030932005.pdf

Table 4.5 shows that in 2005, HIV Disease was not even in the top ten causes of death in South Africa. Instead: TB, Influenza/Pneumonia, Intestinal Infectuuous Diseases, Heart Disease, Cerebrovascular Diseases, Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases....etc etc.

Mbeki, then, would be 100% correct in addressing these diseases first and foremost. As he has said, POVERTY, not sex, causes disease.

How dare you call Thabo Mbeki, whose family helped liberate the nation from Apartheid and who the majority of black South Africans adore and admire, "clueless?"

[Rebecca]

Africa's ARV treatment fails

Afrol News, 16 October - A new study revealed that the anti-retroviral (ARV) treatment is failing among one third of sub-Saharan HIV/AIDS patients.

Conducted by the Boston University School of Public Health in United States, the study, carried out in 13 sub-Saharan countries, was published by the Public Libray of Science.

It showed that sub-Saharan patients on ARV medication die or discontinue treatment within two years of starting it, with only 61% of all patients still receiving medication. ....

It was proven that some patients lately used the ARV drugs and died within few months after starting the treatment...."

So:
Mbeki "clueless" or Mbeki "vindicated?"

[Rebecca]

http://www.tig.org.za/pdf-files/azt-mbeki_tshabalala-msimang.pdf

Need I say more?

[Cesar]

Remember "Rebecca", you can also get cancer from toilet seats!

[Robert]

Oh, that Leon. I thought you meant Leon Louw.

[Lise]

Remember "Rebecca", you can also get cancer from toilet seats!

- Yup, with about same frequency as you get "HIV" from heterosexual sex.

As a teaser before the latest South African population survey two projections were made, one "with AIDS" etimate, another "without AIDS".

With AIDS: 44 million

Without AIDS: 49 million

Result of count: 48.5 million

You guys do know that the UN has recently admitted their worldwide HIV stats are largely bogus, don't you? Here's an example from India lest you'd think South Africa is the only place they got it wrong:

India, once believed to have the largest HIV-positive population of any country in the world, today announced that new, more accurate surveillance data suggest India has about 2.5 million people living with HIV - about half the number estimated by UNAIDS based on previous surveys of HIV prevalence among pregnant women.

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/C216549D-65B8-483D-8C84-D513A22900B6.asp

[Cesar]

Third world countries don't really have AIDS. Great. Can I get my foreign aid tax money back now? Thanks!

[Lise]

Cesar, let me guess you're a liberal? Well since Big Guvmint does have its trunk in your pocket, why not just demand that your tax money gets spend on something useful, like ensuring proper nutrition and sanitation.

Like Mbeki says.

[Cesar]

Cesar, let me guess you're a liberal?

You could guess, but you'd be wrong!

Well since Big Guvmint does have its trunk in your pocket, why not just demand that your tax money gets spend on something useful, like ensuring proper nutrition and sanitation.

You mean, line Mbeki's pockets. Thanks but no thanks. Your country, your fucking problem.

[B]

"Disclaimer: The above comment is not an endorsement of Lincoln"

Christ, the people on this site are even more retarded then I could have ever imagined.

[B]

"Amazing the colonialist libertarians in this group. Sure things were bad in the past. And yet you wouldn't use that as an excuse for reprehensible hell-in-a-handbasket actions by your current government, would you? Why do so for South Africa?"

Amen. An article is written about how corrupt and awful South Africa is and the morons on this site try to excuse it by bringing up the Reconstruction-era South; not surprisingly we have some of the brilliant geniuses trying to outstupid each other by resorting to the old "Lincoln was a proto-fascist" canard. Maybe Ron Paul is associated with the leader of the ANC. How else to explain the surprising lack of criticism for his deeds?

[grumpy realist]

Part of the problem in Africa is there is still a huge disconnect between where the borders of countries are drawn and where people of one self-identified group, i.e., tribe are located.

The Europeans split up Africa without any thought as to whether the units thus formed made any sense, and Africa has been dealing with the consequences ever since. How many countries in Africa haven't been dealing with low-level wars since, well, forever?

(Oh, and if it is true that "an armed society is a polite society", given the amount of arms that have been floating around Africa since time immemorial, the place should be a frickin' tea party by now, nu? )

[Lise]

No Cesar, not line anybody's pockets, provide proper food and sanitation. What's so difficult
to grasp about this?

Did you know that the stated aim of foreign aid of countries like the US is to increase their economic, political and military influence in the world? Are you that naive a libertarian (the liberal thing was for fun of course) that you actually believe your Guvmint spends your tax dollars on altruistic projects?

The last, not openly stated, aim of foreign aid
is to subsidize Big Business with tax payer money - you know the same kind of business guy types who don't believe in the welfare system, and that everybody should be responsible for their own fucking selves, until they crash the housing market or something,in which case their hand wringing lobbyists come begging the despised nanny state to bail them out.

When Mbeki said no to the AID$ Inc. money machine, he said no to a golden opportunity to line his pockets.

[Manu]

I find it beyond surreal that people who shoot off because they think they are so informed make such asses of themselves.

Thabo Mbeki is the ONLY leader in the world who has had the courage, decency, intelligence dignity and strength to face up to AID$$$$$ Inc. and protect his people against the onslaught of the AZT machine Gore and Clinton tried to foist on him.

Shame on these big pharma pimps, these corrupt bawds. Most morons here still believe these two are trying to save the world...

Anyone who stands up and challenges the HIV=AIDS scam stands to loose it all. Even so some do who are at the top. There are hundreds of thousands normal mortals who are living proof its all a scam as we are still alive and well some up to 20 years after our death sentence was given us, we have had no meds and we are still alive.

Thabo Mbeki was interested in seeing why this is. He was right to do so. He did not want to do as everyone does in the west which is ignore this fact in favour of maintaining this sham alive just so everyone can wear a friggin red ribbon once a year and give e few dollars os they can poison African babies and their mothers with toxic medication and then actually have the nerve to feel good about it too.

Then you have us gays, and if you took HIV & AIDS away from us we would have to realise that all our advances over the last 20 years are tied in with our acceptance of AIDS as a cause and identity.

I wish there was one gay leader who had the courage of Mbeki and stand up and speak out against this targeting of gay men by AID$$$$ Inc. I wish there was one gay leader with his integrity and his strength.

All we have are Larry Kramer and Martin Delaney telling us to make sure we do not miss one dose of out daily toxic communion, our poison. They need that to keep their false glory alive and their money rolling in form the AID$$$ machine.

How i wish we had a Thabo Mbeki in our ranks...