Paul Krugman: Ooo, What a Giveaway

In the November 15 issue of Rolling Stone, one more in their continuing series of 40th anniversary celebrations, this time centering on interviews with Big Thinkers, Paul Krugman is in the mix.

Asked to name his great inspiration, he says: Isaac Asimov's Foundation series--a tale of super social scientists who can accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior that allow them to predict, and manipulate, all of human civilization and future history. "That's always what I wanted to be," saith the economist turned pundit. Good luck with that project, Dr. Krugman.

Previous Rolling Stone 40th anniversary blogging by me here and here.

Comments

[Aresen]

The Foundation Series fascinated me when I was in my teens - the notion of a Mathematically Exact Social Science which could bring peace and justice was exhilarating.

The older I got, however, the more I realized the totalitarian implications of such a science. The novels are really quite repulsive.

[mozzie]

I'm trying to shoot for something a bit more humble, like I don't know, creating my own universe, with my own race of sentient beings to manipulate...oh wait...

[thoreau]

I used to be friends with a guy who claimed that all of the world could be understood if I just studied the Foundation novels and the electoral college.

I'm pretty sure he was stoned when he said it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure he was stoned most of the time.

[Ken Shultz]

As I recall, and this is goin' way back, didn't "the Mule" mess that super-scientist's shit up?

[Aresen]

Ken Schultz

You're right. The Mule conquered the First Foundation, but was beaten by the Second Foundation. Asimov had to do a little twisting of his major premise to make that come out right. I still remember my outrage when I realized that "Preem Palaver" (sp?) was the First Speaker of the Second Foundation. Of all the cheap-shot, Asimovian puns....

[Neu Mejican]

DR.T,

I remember that I read the foundation trilogy during the years that I was ALWAYS stoned.

I remember virtually no details. I don't remember thinking much about the electoral college in those days.

But to be fair, I don't remember much from those days.
I wonder if we hung out.

[mtc]

Well it was a hell of a good premise. You could say all Seldon was trying to do was tuck away a little 'restart' capital for rebuilding the galaxy. Trade was the primary means by which the Foundation brought 'civilization' back to the galaxy, at least in the early books. The whole thing did make for a bit of a weird story arc once you realized the good guys always win without trying ('til The Mule came along anyway).

At least Krugman didn't say he wanted to be like the members of the Second Foundation.

[jerry]

Ha Ha, Brain Doherty, you're too funnay! So snarky!

And what books were you reading and what did you want to be when you were a kid?

Do you get paid for this shit?

[iih]

OK, since there is no weekend thread (or is it not the weekend yet?), NPR's All Things Considered played a segment from Ron Paul's recent excellent talk addressed to the Arab American Anti-Discrimination league. Here it is. (The segment before they had Lieberman on defending the recent Congress resolutions against Iran. So it was great to hear Paul after that. It will give a lot of attention to him amongst the anti-war NPR listeners. So I recommend first listening to the two segments preceding Paul's linked segment to give context).

[iih]

Since NPR was mentioned (I know this is off topic, but where is my weekend thread?), I wonder wy the animosity by libertarians towards NPR? Is it because of the 13% of their revenue that comes from the Federal government? This always bewildered me.

[iih]

correction: It was the Arab American Institute. The full speech can be found here.

[rectal cranial inversion]

Krugman is such a jackass! As a kid, he wanted to learn more about the science that saved an entire Galaxy from a dark age. OMG! Think of what he could have been doing? He could have been masturbating to Ayn Rand telling him the beauty of being a selfish arrogant prick.

good luck on your project doherty. i'm glad you were reading the right books.

[Art-P.O.G.]

i'm glad you were reading the right books.

You must read Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Strikes Again". Probably the most punk rock satire I've evr read.

[Rick Barton]

accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior

"Pinpoint"- That's the rub. Free society is made of freely acting individuals such that pinpointing laws is out of the question. The freer the individuals in society, the harder it is to predict. The threat is that folks like Paul Krugman are all too willing to impose coercion so that their dreams of predictability are more attainable.

In Jr high school, a free economy was made appealing to me by, of all people; Robert Heilbroner. In his The Making of Economic Society. In explaining capitalism, he said something like: "What keeps prices from going too high? The market. What keeps goods on the shelves to buy? The market. What keeps causing the creation of better products for people to buy? The market"

[isildur]

Look! Trolls in their natural, unspoiled-by-man state!

[RC]

The thing I find most interesting in the Foundation is their lack of ability to predict or manipulate the weather. Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man.

[wayne]

"Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man."

Cheap shot! Joe will put your balls in a microwave and show you what global warming is all about for that remark.

[Fluffy]

Rectal -

What you and Krugman fail to see is the unfathomable arrogance of the Foundation's psychohistory in its basic conception.

The notion that all human action can be predicted and controlled in the aggregate requires a vast conceit. The minds of the scientists must be able to contain within them the minds of everyone else - and not only to contain them, but to be able to isolate them for study, and to play with them like brightly colored balls. That's truly shocking megalomania.

In many ways Seldon is the anti-Hayek, whose basic premise was that human behavior is too complex for central planning. Seldon, and Asimov, acknowledge the complexity, but just laugh and say, "No matter, us god-scientists will simply overcome that."

[JW]

psssst. Hey Paul, it's science fiction. Nice premise to hang your career from.

It was a long time ago, but I couldn't make it through even the first book in the Foundation series. It was tough slogging and eventually I just put it down out of boredom. And I generally like Asimov.

On that note, I just finished reading Peter Hamliton's 2,000 page, 2-book Pandora's Star series. A bit pedantic at times, but a very complelling story line and good cast of characters. Needed a dramatis persona in the first one, but did have one in the 2nd. There are so many characters, I was forgetting who was who, but didn't feel like going back and figuring out where they came in.

Still a good read and well worth the investment of time.

[Mark Bahner]

The thing I find most interesting in the Foundation is their lack of ability to predict or manipulate the weather. Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man.

Well, the books that *I* was reading that had the biggest impression on me included Robert Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky," and "The Door into Summer."

Farmer in the Sky involved terraforming Jupiter's moon, Ganymede. And you bet your bippy (as we used to in those days) that those folks could control global temperature!

P.S. As well as going from Earth to Jupiter in a few weeks in fusion-powered ships. (It's really pathetic that NASA isn't working on those.)

[Bruce Majors]

How amusing! It is always so funny when a left "liberal" icon is criticized and all the mental cases come out of the woodwork to fart on about Ayn Rand and the adenoidal girly men at NPR (journalists who typically have a "voice for the print media" rofl).

One would have thought Klugman's favorite literature would have been the Tales of the Brothers Grimm, since he is Fibby, one of Snow White's little men.

[Russell]

Oddly, Asimov's 'young adult' fiction translated into Arabic, and RAND reports abound in rumors that OBL is a fan of the late great Ike.

These were universally discounted, but as many recall Al Gore heartily endorsing Dune in his stoner days, and what with his since having claimed to strat the Butlerian Jihad, who's to deny Ike Asimov his place in history alongside the other greats of the pulpopod era, like Ron Hubbard?

[Trey]

ihh, perhaps you can confirm this, I understand that "The Foundation" was translated in Arabic as "Al Qaeda."

Coincidence? Perhaps...

[Lamar]

Well, now I have to go out and buy the Foundation series.

[Trey]

Speaking of coincidences, I posted the above independent of Russell.

I just got chills!

[Pete]

Hey didnt asimov write a 4th and 5th book too, where the protagonist gets laid by big breasted women? i could swear i read those when i was a teen... nothing like authors getting old and pervy!

"The minds of the scientists must be able to contain within them the minds of everyone else"

yo, you miss the point completely. the problem isnt that the scientist must use all information about the external world, it is that they must use their own info too, creating a loop of consequences. imagine a machine that can tell you if you're going to say "1" or "2". if you're a contrary fellow, if the machine predicts 1 you're going to say 2, and vice versa. so there is no answer the machine can give, it becomes a loop.

i should stop drinking

[J sub D]

I agree with the iih declaration" of this as the open/weekend political thread.

That said, this sums up some misgiving that lovers of freedom (libertarians?) have about the current administration. I usually disagree (>50%) with Leonard Pitts, but find his pieces well thought out and entertaining reading.

[J sub D]

Hey didnt asimov write a 4th and 5th book too, where the protagonist gets laid by big breasted women?

Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth. Foundations edge was excellent. I waited literally decades for that one. Incidentally, that novel was Dr. Asimov's first entry into the NYT bestseller list.

[J sub D]

...who's to deny Ike Asimov his place in history alongside the other greats of the pulpopod era, like Ron Hubbard?

Russell, how do you manage to read with your head so far up your ass? Just (sort of) kidding. 😉

[R C Dean]

I wonder why the animosity by libertarians towards NPR?

Partly the taxpayer funding, and partly the lefty elitism that permeates their broadcasts.

[Pro Libertate]

R C Dean,

Also, left-leanings aside, NPR is heavily Beltway-centric in its viewpoints. Naturally.

I'm a big fan of Asimov. He was no libertarian, but my fondness for literature doesn't require ideological purity.

For myself, I've joined both the Second Foundation and the Bene Gesserit. You know, to cover all my bases.

[iih]

Trey:

ihh, perhaps you can confirm this, I understand that "The Foundation" was translated in Arabic as "Al Qaeda."

"Al Qaeda" literally means "the base" and could also be "the foundation".

[J sub D]

My favorite Isaac Asimov piece was a short story titled The Last Question. I was shocked to find it, in it's entirety, on the tubes, but here it is. If you haven't read it, you should.

[J sub D]

"Al Qaeda" literally means "the base" and could also be "the foundation".

Wow!

[iih]

I agree with the iih declaration" of this as the open/weekend political thread.

At some point last night I actually hesitated weather it is the weekend already. It seems that I now know thait is weekend when the H&R's weekend thread appears on the blog.

[iih]

Wow!

I thought everyone new what it meant!

[Neu Mejican]

iih,

Me too. It has been widely mentioned in the news this organization with an Arabic name meaning "The base"

Osama bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.

From Wiki

[iih]

R C Dean:

Partly the taxpayer funding

Come on, compared to where and much else of our taxes go, I am willing to forgive them. I am a fan of many of their programs (especially Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me (especially that they host O'Rourke and one of my most favorite comedians Paula Poundstone. Car Talk is great too.

and partly the lefty elitism that permeates their broadcasts.

But if it were not for NPR, we'll be left with the Limbaughs and the Savages of the airwaves.

[iih]

Close italics, close!

[Neu Mejican]

From the post:

social scientists who can accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior

Imagine an economist being inspired by this...imagine.

If you use your understanding of the laws of human behavior to advocate policies that move society closer to a "Free Market," are you predicting and manipulating?

As soon as you use scientific understanding as a basis for your policy, you are engaged in the project described...libertarian or communist or green or democrat.

[J sub D]

In the foundation novels, psychohistory is described so that the aggregate behaviour of humanity can be predicted. Just as individual molecules in a gas are unpredictable, so are individual reactions of humans. However, like gas molecules, when you get enough of them together, laws of prediction can be formed, akin to weather forecasting. Fanciful stuff, but in the realm of SF, it's not that outrageous of an premise.

[J sub D]

Come on, compared to where and much else of our taxes go, I am willing to forgive them.

I agree that of all that the government spends, CPB/PBS/NPR should be near the botton of the let's kill it list. Nonetheless, at the risk of sounding condesending, Yes, it's only a drop in the bucket. But the bucket is full of drops and spoonfuls. Actually, the bucket is overflowing from all of the drops and spoonfuls. We call that the deficit. PBS/NPR is a luxury that the government should not be providing. I like to go bowling, but I don't want the taxpayers to help pay for it.

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

[iih]

J sub D:

Com'on, don't you ever listen to Michigan Radio?

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

I agree. But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

[Elemenope]

Damn it, J sub D, you beat me to my point. And even on the scales we deal with, its not all that fanciful; most foreign relations are predicated upon the mostly correct fact that even though governments are composed of large numbers of individuals, in the aggregate a government's actions vis a vis an event are decently easy to predict.

It is in fact remarkable just how many systems have indeterminately active parts that give basically determinate aggregate behaviors. Why should we believe that, in the odd but optimistic future where human civilization spans an entire galaxy, that the structures at that scale wouldn't be very predictable?

[DDS]

ok, here's a question. I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

[J sub D]

Com'on, don't you ever listen to Michigan Radio?

All the time. It's on the home and car presets. I've got my principles though. Confession here, when I was in the Navy I bowled at a lot of government supported facilities. The lane fees and the drinks cost consirably less there.

[iih]

J sub D:

You hypocrite 😉

[J sub D]

I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

Probably not. If they existed, they'd be playgrounds for the rich. DDS, you (and me) are what is often described as a small l libertarian. It makes us somewhat hypocritical but likely more realistic about the nature of man.

If you always agree with the party line, you're not thinking for yourself.

[J sub D]

iih, guilty as charged. See my 1:13pm post.

[DDS]

J sub D. yeah, I figured.

[highnumber]

Foundation inspired Naked Raygun's "The Mule," then?

(In a spiralling humanity
There's a cycle we can see
In a throng's monstrosity odds are
There'll always be a mule
You never can predict the mind of a lunatic
A mind so badly sick
With strange arithmetic)

I never knew. Asimov bored me.

[iih]

ok, here's a question. I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

Up in Quebec, they are thinking of privatizing some provincial parks. The one I am aware of (and have been to) is Mt. Orford. For more detail, see this, for example.

[J sub D]

Foundation inspired Naked Raygun's "The Mule," then?

(In a spiralling humanity
There's a cycle we can see
In a throng's monstrosity odds are
There'll always be a mule
You never can predict the mind of a lunatic
A mind so badly sick
With strange arithmetic)

Sure sounds like it.

I never knew. Asimov bored me.

I learn useful stuff and useless crap here all the time.

[J sub D]

Up in Quebec, they are thinking of privatizing some provincial parks. The one I am aware of (and have been to) is Mt. Orford. For more detail, see this, for example.

Interesting on many levels. I've got to agree with "I always said that I would not change my mind on the importance for us not to find ourselves in a situation where we are managing a ski centre and a golf club," said B?chard. "We don't want to do that. And we haven't changed our mind on that."

IIRC, Canada has the highest percentage of land locked up in state and national parks. Maybe they should sell some. Or maybe save it for a rainy day. Land is like money in the bank.

[iih]

I tried to read one of his novels, but was bored to death. But I am not big on SF, except rarely. I remember liking Aldous HUxley's Brave New World. Daniel Quinn's Ismael is certainly not SF, but is one of the best books I ever read. Anyone here read Ishmael?

[J sub D]

Make that "provincial and national parks". It's that damned ugly american syndrome kicking in.

[iih]

J sub D:

tsk tsk Canada does not have state parks 😉

In Canada, I do not think that it is some sort of fetish for government/public ownership of parks. They simply have so much land to even care. (For those who may not know, Canada has the second largest country in the world.)

[iih]

Too late... I haven't refreshed since starting to write my comment at 1:43.

[Yogi]

Parks could still exist in a purely libertarian world, and I don't think they'd be "playgrounds for the rich".

How? Non-profits. Put the Boy Scouts in charge of Yellowstone. Put the Sierra Club in charge of Alaska's parks. I would donate money to these causes if I knew that without them these places wouldn't exist. (Especially if my taxes weren't as high.) Of course, you couldn't do this overnight, but things like this are already happening. Hunting groups are buying up land to create game reserves. The outdoors sports industry is huge in this country.

[Yogi]

Of course, I've never liked park rangers anyway...

[rho]

Asimov's Foundation was written during a time when everybody thought SCIENCE would give us everything. Flying cars. Moon trips. Commuter submarines. Professional psychology was moving out of injecting mercury directly into the brains of spastics phase and into the talky-talk my-wife-left-me mainstream phase. Not such a crazy idea to imagine psychohistory, then.

I liked the Foundation trilogy, poorly named such since it was actually written as a bunch of short story serials. His post-serial books, F. Edge and F. Earth were monumental works of crap. Asimov never wrote very good long-form fiction, IMO.

However, as somebody noted, books four and five did include the great science fiction staple--the Awkwardly Written Gratuitous Sex Scene. This, I believe, makes them classics.

[Boo Boo]

Of course, I've never liked park rangers anyway...

But I do!

[Neu Mejican]

Speaking of attempts at control

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Gen. Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency in Pakistan on Saturday, suspending the constitution, replacing the chief justice before a crucial Supreme Court ruling on his future as president, and cutting communications in the capital.

Off the wire a little while ago.

[J sub D]

F. Edge and F. Earth were monumental works of crap. I liked Foundations Edge. Foundation and Earth tried to do way too much, thus doing nothing well.

[Neu Mejican]

In Venezuela, a much different tact is unfolding...

CARACAS (Reuters) - Congress passed President Hugo Chavez's proposal to scrap presidential term limits on Friday in a package of constitutional changes that Venezuelans are likely to approve in a referendum next month.

Pro-Chavez lawmakers, who dominate the legislature, shouted "yes, yes," and chanted the president's political slogan "Fatherland, socialism or death" in approving the measures.

I will note that Chavez is using democratic mechanisms in an attempt to achieve the same ends that Musharaff uses military/police force to achieve.

[Matt]

"But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? "

I think the viable solution is adopting the business model of, say, Digitally Imported Radio (di.fm, I think currently the biggest for-profit Internet radio, having several thousands of listeners).

If you're a member you've got access to the premium services (higher bitrate quality, the replay channel, etc.), while all the others can still listen at up to 96 kbps for free.

Support also comes from the commercials, which isn't unusual for the radio - the alternative being the underwriting spot, which is already widespread in public broadcasting (used e.g. by the PBS) - in such a case, the audience becomes an "asset", rather than a burden - even if not paying directly, the listeners "provide" the financing for the station (through the income generated by the sponsorship, positively related to the listenership).

Hence, I don't really see a problem.

[J sub D]

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Gen. Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency in Pakistan on Saturday, suspending the constitution, replacing the chief justice before a crucial Supreme Court ruling on his future as president, and cutting communications in the capital.

Yeah, I saw that. The sad part is, I wasn't a bit surprised. Pakistan goes into and out of martial law, like a 6 year old boy and the back door. I've said it before, some cultures/societies are not prepared for responsible, democratic, self government.

[Kenny]

What keeps prices from going too high? The market. What keeps goods on the shelves to buy? The market. What keeps causing the creation of better products for people to buy? The market

Apropos of nothing in particular, when I read this, the tune of the Simpson's Monorail song immediately got into my head.

[ed]

It's over 25 years since I first (and last) read Foundation but sheesh, it was just a novel, or rather three novels, and sci-fi ones at that. Given this fact Asimov created a serviceable framework for enjoyable, not-too-taxing, light reading. Few sci-fi endeavors get beyond that. I remember liking it despite the fact I was forced to read it. And yes, I remember The Mule freaking me out at the time, so I guess Asimov was successful with that plot device. I admit I haven't thought about it since...I'm considering rereading the original Dune trilogy...but enough about me.

[J sub D]

On Venezuela, I posted this 3 days ago.

joe, I'll bet that the proposed cahanes are adopted with minor, window dressing changes. I'll also bet that Chavez will die in office, be executed/imprisoned by a military coup or live out his days in exile. IOW, he will never relinquish power honorably. Please save these predictions so you can throw them in my face when I'm proven wrong by events.

Hoping that you get to do that,
J sub D

1 for 1 so far. Shit.

[J sub D]

I will note that Chavez is using democratic mechanisms in an attempt to achieve the same ends that Musharaff uses military/police force to achieve.

My last prediction of the week - Chavez will be in power longer.

[Hugh Akston]

Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

But what about those of us in the public who neither pay nor listen? Why should I be required to pay a cent for a forum I find tedious and occasionally offensive?

[prolefeed]

Since NPR was mentioned (I know this is off topic, but where is my weekend thread?), I wonder wy the animosity by libertarians towards NPR? Is it because of the 13% of their revenue that comes from the Federal government? This always bewildered me.

iih -- Libertarians object to the Public in National Public Radio. Oh, and the natural fallout from the financing source, since public broadcasting, whether radio or TV, is almost invariably run by hardcore statists who can spend lots of money on agitprop hardly anyone tunes into. If you're not directly accountable to viewers for your revenue, your programming will reflect that lack of need to be responsive -- but will reflect your need to please those in government who hold the pursestrings.

And if you think taxation is theft, spending the loot on this stuff is especially galling.

[iih]

J sub D:

I've said it before, some cultures/societies are not prepared for responsible, democratic, self government.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[prolefeed]

There is more at stake here than the credibility of a president or a presidency. What is at stake is the ability of people to trust that those in positions of trust are worthy of trust. To play fast and loose with facts, as the Bush administration has habitually done, is to put truth itself into play and risk rendering government's word worthless. Not this government, but government, period.

If it takes the misdoings of the Bush administration to make even folks like Leonard Pitt distrust all government all the time, then perhaps, in a twisted way, the unintended consequence of their behavior could be viewed as laudable.

The problem, of course, is that Leonard Pitt thinks it's a bad thing for people to distrust government, and also thinks HRC will restore truthfulness and trust in government again.

[iih]

prolefeed:

I am really curious, can you give me an example of a hardcore statist on NPR?

I have been listening to NPR consistently and, last time I checked, it was the conservatives, the WH, the neocons, and the Envagelicals who were made at NPR. They haven't caved in because of the opposition of those in power, have they? Remember the extreme pressure they were put under by the government because they were not conservative enough?

I would be for stripping public funding for NPR/PBS and put PBS on a subscription-based TV channel. But what about NPR? What about those who will listen in but not pay? May be through digital and satellite radio?

[iih]

BTW, I just discovered that Helen Thomas is of Arab descent. Her parents were Lebanese American.

[iih]

prolefeed:

Same question I asked J sub D, you never ever listen to NPR?

[prolefeed]

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

I agree. But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

To follow this logic further:

But if private radio has people who don't respond to the ads, shouldn't the government kick in money to make up for those free riders?

But if private TV has people who fast forward through the commercials ...

It takes a statist worldview to say that since some will not voluntarily pay, or pay enough, for a public "good", we need to force everyone to pay for it, and imprison those who dissent and refuse to pay.

[Goldthwait]

Rolling Stone considers Paul Krugman a "big thinker"? No wonder that magazine is so incredibly lame. They should stick to music journalism.

[Matt]

ilh: "What about those who will listen in but not pay?" - I have already answered to that - check my comment at 2:49pm.

[highnumber]

I give money to NPR with the hope that I may be replacing some gov't funding with my $$.
Some of their programming is indispensable. Some of it is horribly biased toward liberal pro-state. (I'm looking at you, local public affairs program 848!) Some of it is decent unbiased reporting. Some of it is boring, boring boring. Some of it is good fun. Overall, it's the best radio I get. I refrain from bashing it.

[iih]

But if private radio has people who don't respond to the ads, shouldn't the government kick in money to make up for those free riders?

Your point is well taken. But, not everyone who listens to an ad is obliged to buy.

In any case, I think that with digital radio technology (if I understand it right), this is issue is resolved. Only those who wish to listen will pay for it. No taxes.

[iih]

Matt-- I missed your comment. Thanks. Is there digital radio available in the US (i.e., in my car, can I get it?).

[iih]

highnumber (and others who wish to share):

Just out of curiosity, which NPR programs do you like?

[J sub D]

Overall, it's the best radio I get. I refrain from bashing it.

It's in my listening mix as well. I just don't think that Britanny Spears should have to contribute for it. I used Ms. Spears for an example because she's rich and likely doesn't listen. Plus she's contemptible. Mitch the plumber might be more sympathetic, but y'all don't know Mitch.

[prolefeed]

iih -- I don't ever intentionally listen to NPR. I've heard brief scraps while doing the "scan" function on my car radio, and never heard anything worth listening to. So perhaps I was mistaken in lumping NPR in with PBS, since I haven't spent significant time listening to what they broadcast. Mea culpa.

I do have direct experience with the folks at PBS, though. I ended up talking with the folks at the local station because I was running for office, and they were airing debates between the people contending for office, and I took advantage of the "free" publicity (yeah, yeah, and I drive on public roads, too -- I still want to privatize them). Everyone I talked to who worked at the station was a hardcore statist cheerleader for much bigger government. Had an interesting off-air conversation with the (since deceased) moderator of our debate (who wasn't the least bit moderate) about how I wanted to cut off all government funding for their station. He was a very pleasant guy, if you could keep him off the topic of politics.

[prolefeed]

Your point is well taken. But, not everyone who listens to an ad is obliged to buy.

iih -- Of course they aren't obligated. Nor should anyone be obligated to pay through taxes for NPR or PBS. The people who like what NPR or PBS puts out, and are altruistic enough to voluntarily support it, can chip in enough to keep it afloat without government coercion.

I don't subscribe to the paper copy of Reason (yet), and haven't bought anything from the ads they run here. Call me a curmudgeon. Is this a problem? Should the government kick in funding to make up for free riders like me? Or -- gasp -- has modern economics solved the problem of privately funding public goods? (Hint -- yes.)

[iih]

prolefeed:

I rarely watch PBS. But NPR in the morning and the evening commute is essential. The alternative is the big fascist "best and brightest" (read "awful and dumbest") 96.9 (google Michael Graham and Jay Severin).

I recommend listening to them in the morning or just "All things Considered". In weekends, "Wait Wait Don't Tell" is the funniest program ever. I think you will change your mind about them, though that doesn't mean you have to change your opinion regarding the tax thing. I am with you on that.

As highnumber mentioned, some of their stuff is boring, some is a lot of fun, and some is really very very information.

I personally like Diane Rheme, On Point, and Talk of The Nation. Also, Car Talk and Wait Wait Don't Tell on weekends.

prolefeed: Give it a shot... I won't tell anyone that you did.

I wonder, would Walter Block (hardcore Libertarian Misesian economist) listen to NPR. Ron Paul does not shy away from being interviewed by NPR/PBS.

[iih]

prolefeed @ 4:11pm: As I mention above, we are in agreement on the taxes thing.

[iih]

Fix: Wait Wait Don't Tell ME

prolefeed: You can also stream them (for free!) on your computer. Give it a shot.

[prolefeed]

Ron Paul does not shy away from being interviewed by NPR/PBS.

Politics results in some twisted outcomes. After the election (which I lost, getting 46% of the vote), the local PBS station aired a discussion between the aforementioned immoderate moderator and two people who had done much better than anyone had expected: me (the ostensible Republican who is a libertarian); and a likeable guy who'd run as an ostensible Democrat (though he was more of a socialist) in a thoroughly Republican district and got about 45% too.

Turns out that I had taken public financing, despite wanting to entirely eliminate it, while the Democrat had refused public financing, and enthusiastically supported the concept. When he accused me of being a hypocrite for taking the public money, I pointed out that it had been in my personal interest to take the money, and so as a rational economic actor had done so, but since I felt it was not in the interest of the general public to finance these elections, I would have vigorously tried to eliminate public funding once in office. Whereas the Democrat turned down the funding because it would have limited the amount he could spend in his campaign, but because he thought government was a positive force for good, supported this and practically anything else financed by taxes.

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

[J sub D]

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

No. But you will be watched verry closely! ;-|

[iih]

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

Certainly not. And I think that what you did was perfectly legitimate. As did Paul.

[Matt]

ilh: sure, and yes, you can get it in a car 🙂

Here's some more information:

"Digital Audio Radio Service or DARS refers to any type of digital radio service. In the United States it is the official FCC term for digital radio services.

The most popular type of DARS in the U.S. is SDARS: Satellite Digital Audio Radio Service, operated by XM Radio and Sirius. XM and Sirius both operate in the 2.3-GHz S band, from 2320 to 2345 MHz.

Outside the United States, WorldSpace operates a DARS network with a footprint covering Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa using the L-band."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDARS

"XM Satellite Radio Holdings (XM) is one of two satellite radio (SDARS) services in the United States and Canada, along with Sirius Satellite Radio.
These two former rivals have announced their intention to merge, which would create a single satellite radio entity in the United States with nearly 14 million subscribers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM_Satellite_Radio

One ways to listen to the Digitally Imported Radio in a car (other than just a laptop w/ wireless connection):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_radio_device

Other interesting alternatives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_radio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Multimedia_Broadcasting

[iih]

Matt:

Oh, well, I do have satellite radio (Sirius). I thought that digital radio is some sort of separate radio technology. NPR on Sirius is bad, btw, because I do not think they expect too many Sirius subscribers would be interested in NPR.

[Matt]

iih: "digital radio" is a broad term which covers many technologies - DARS (one of examples of which is SDARS - specific applications of which are XM and Sirius), DTR (digital television radio), DMB (digital multimedia broadcasting), and, last but not least, Internet Radio (one of the examples of technologies used here is Icecast or Shoutcast - one of the specific applications of the latest being the Digitally Imported Radio). There's really a whole lot of alternatives to the older technologies 🙂

[Fluffy]

I think that humanities spending of all kinds is some of the most unjust spending out there, despite the fact that a mere pittance is spent on them, and despite the fact that I listen to NPR and VPR and patronize museums that get public grants, etc.

NPR takes my tax money and uses it to teach people that my political views are despicable. I'd almost rather have a state church supported by tax dollars. That would be offensive, but would have little practical impact on my life, compared to an entity that influences political and cultural debate.

And speaking of culture, I also find it offensive that there's this great, big Tammany Hall of culture out there, floating on state money and grant money and allowing a huge gaggle of crunchy deadbeats to pat each other on the back and assert each other's mutual cultural relevance. I would be delighted to see that crash to the ground and have all of those sensitive types working the drive-thru at McDonald's instead.

[iih]

Matt:

Thanks. That is very informative. So, I guess there are alternatives for NPR, and technology seems not to be the problem. Changing peoples' views on the issue is certainly more difficult to do.

[crimethink]

In the long-term, a democratic Pakistan can only be a good thing. In the short term, a NUCLEAR democratic Pakistan is way bad for us.

[SugarFree]

Re: NPR

I hate it because the light jazz intros and segues. I hate light jazz. That and the knowingly ironic tone that is really condescension.

[Cesar]

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up (along with Northern Ireland, Iraq, Palestine, half of Africa, etc, etc, etc).

[crimethink]

Re: How could NPR and PBS exist without govt funding...

Maybe they should outsource to Myanmar their shitty tote bag production -- you know, the ones that VIEWERS LIKE YOU get when they pledge $50?

[iih]

SugarFree:

I think, depending on where you are, and how popular NPR is there determine the programing. If you are in a city or in a "liberal" college town, chances are less music will be played. In the midwest (outside urban areas), chances are it is going to play a lot of music, instead of more expensive, high demand programing.

[iih]

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up (along with Northern Ireland, Iraq, Palestine, half of Africa, etc, etc, etc).

.. and oppressed the Americans more than 200 years ago? Funny how things work out, UK and US are very good friends now.

[crimethink]

iih,

The US military had contingency plans in place for a global war against the UK until 1930. There was nothing inevitable about our "special relationship".

[Cesar]

We didn't have any special love for the UK until WWII as crimethink pointed out, and theres no history of bloodthirsty religious hatred between the US and UK. We also don't share a border directly, which helps.

[iih]

Even funnier, France, America's greatest ally during the revolution, is now almost always discussed with a lot of negativity, especially on the Right.

[crimethink]

Actually, now that I think about it, the US and Canada would be a more apt comparison. Though, again, we don't have the religious animosity going, and North America has far fewer people and far more resources than the Subcontinent does.

[iih]

Question to those of you who are American history savvy: Can we say that today's neocons are the descendants and the evolved version of Hamilton, who believed that freedom can only be given by government as opposed as a natural right? I don't know much about Hamilton and would like to learn. I guess, and wiki it too, but this is more fun.

[Cesar]

Actually, now that I think about it, the US and Canada would be a more apt comparison. Though, again, we don't have the religious animosity going, and North America has far fewer people and far more resources than the Subcontinent does.

And the fact that we choose our own borders rather than having them drawn for us arbitrarily by an outside power.

[crimethink]

Maybe Rudy Giuliani can get on the ten dollar bill someday. Though it would be more appropriate for him to be on the three dollar bill... 😉

Speaking of which...

[DDS]

"How? Non-profits. Put the Boy Scouts in charge of Yellowstone. Put the Sierra Club in charge of Alaska's parks. I would donate money to these causes if I knew that without them these places wouldn't exist. (Especially if my taxes weren't as high.) Of course, you couldn't do this overnight, but things like this are already happening. Hunting groups are buying up land to create game reserves. The outdoors sports industry is huge in this country."

Yogi, I agree with you about private donations. what my concern is is with rightful ownership of the land in the first place. If I plant a bunch of corn and take time to help it grow, then it would be mine due to the "mixing of my labor". but you can't build a fence around 1000 acres of land and say everything inside it is yours.

[J sub D]

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up

I'm not so sure of that. Even 20/20 hindsight doesn't answer the what if? questions. Now that they've given up that socialist crap, India seems to be making serious progress. Would they be better off still yoked to Pakistan? Your guess is as good as mine.

I will say this. In the late '70s I spent a week anchored off Karachi. An alleged "liberty port", I had 5 of 6 days off. I took the boat to shore the first day in. Spent two hours in beautiful downtown Karachi, took the boat back to the ship, scrubbed myself down vigorously, and didn't go ashore again. I've visited a lot of places in my life, some good, some bad. Karachi, Pakistan was the WORST place I've ever seen. There is competition for the second worst, but Karachi, Pakistan stands alone. IMHO, India is better off without Pakistan.

[Cesar]

I'm not so sure of that. Even 20/20 hindsight doesn't answer the what if? questions. Now that they've given up that socialist crap, India seems to be making serious progress. Would they be better off still yoked to Pakistan? Your guess is as good as mine.

I think India would have had a moderating influence on Pakistan. And there wouldn't be a constant threat of nuclear war. Muslims in India--whether as residents, or immigrants--continually fare better in just about every category than Muslims in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

[Cesar]

iih--

Its hard to compare the politics of the 1790s today. Really, both major parties are partly Hamiltonian and partly Jeffersonian. The Republicans are Hamiltonian in that they believe in rule by an elite, and the Democrats are in that they believe in a large government.

They are also both, in a way (at least in rhetoric) Jeffersonian. They Republicans say they want small government, the Democrats say they are for the little guy.

[iih]

I thought "Pakistan" left. They wanted to create a "Muslim homeland" for India's Muslims. Some failed (Gujarat) and are still suffering in India. I personally believe that those Pakistani intellectuals who advocated independence were wrong. Things would have probably been better for all if they stayed with India.

[crimethink]

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

[Paul]

Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

You have got to be fucking kidding me. I listen to all manner of commercial radio stations and don't pay a dime, so now you're telling me that I'm getting a "free ride"? Prying my tax dollars from me at gunpoint because I listen to NPR but don't pay is precisely why I don't give them one red cent.

"Oh, but NPR doesn't take advertising dollars."

Well, sounds like they need to work on their revenue model.

[Cesar]

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Its not always true, I don't think they do too well in Europe.

[crimethink]

Cesar,

Republican politicians are Aaron Burr, and Democrat politicians are Benedict Arnold. The whole lot is full of traitors, thru and thru.*

* Ron Paul doesn't count because he's a statesman, not a politician. 😉

[iih]

I find it very weird that a founding father would actually believe that liberty comes, not from God/birth right, but is given by government (implying that government can take it back freely). May be I made the link between today's neocons and Hamilton because Hamilton was discussed in the context of Civil Liberties in Wartime in an Andrew Napolitano talk (I actually liked that guy a lot after hearing his talk -- see link).

[Cesar]

Republican politicians are Aaron Burr, and Democrat politicians are Benedict Arnold. The whole lot is full of traitors, thru and thru.*

Speaking of Aaron Burr and the politics of the 1790s, its too bad Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney couldn't have a duel today. That'd be fun to watch, and any outcome would be good.

[iih]

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Assuming that that is a serious question, they have done well in the US and Canada, which goes to prove your point. In other countries they do both good and bad (e.g., England, Germany, Scandinavia -- we only hear about the trouble makers there). They have had a lot of hard time in India, though they are a minority. In some other countries where they have been a majority, they did well (e.g., Malaysia).

[A Pessimist]

Speaking of Aaron Burr and the politics of the 1790s, its too bad Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney couldn't have a duel today. That'd be fun to watch, and any outcome would be good.

They could both miss. 🙁

[iih]

"Oh, but NPR doesn't take advertising dollars."

Well, sounds like they need to work on their revenue model.

Paul, see the ensuing discussion above. But they do actually get ad money, as mentioned above.

[iih]

They could both miss. 🙁

And their incompetence at everything may very well give us that result.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I think NPR is a classic example of a government program that works. I, and most people, get far more out of NPR than they pay into. The same can be said, in my opinion, about libraries.

I think an informed citizenry is as important as having police as far as protecting our rights and the Republic. NPR and libraries have demonstrated the virtues of an occupational culture of professionalism as they have strived to be independent of their funding, which is exactly what is needed if we want to get any press and info critical of economic power centers...

Don't get me wrong, many governmnet programs don't "work" in that they are wasteful and downright contrary to our rights and well being. But even Mises thought many functions simply could not be privatized, and I submit that amazingly poor intellectual quality of private radio demonstrates that point...

[Kenny]

prolefeed-
Wow, small world. I used to live in your district on Hui Iwa St.(but couldn't vote because I still claimed VA residency). You're right about the level of spending; I can remember Clayton Hee's name of the top of my head even now because of the number of commercials, but couldn't remember yours until a google search connected you with him.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Navy just broke their decades long losing streak to Notre Dame. As joe would say, ND's tears are SO YUMMY!

[J sub D]

Paul, see the ensuing discussion above. But they do actually get ad money, as mentioned above.

That really ticks me off. Not that they have advertyising, but it's advertising like this.. [sedate background music, quiet soothing voice]All Things Considered was funded, in part, by Archer Daniels Midland An essential link in the agricultural economy, ADM works with farmers, food companies and others to feed the world.

Now how can that possibly compare with the surrealism offered by {loud banjo music, screaming, possiblty unhinged announcer] Come see Cal Worthington and his dog Spot, selling used cars for E-Z CREDIT! NO MONEY DOWN! NO ONE IS TURNED AWAY! We WILL put YOU in the car of you choice. GAURANTEED!!!

I tell ya, I just ain't the same.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Take away philanthropy and I think you would get virtually no Magazines like Reason. I don't know for sure, but I imagine Reason could not do it on subscriptions alone. Remember about a year or two ago Reason had articles about whether corporate philanthropy was justified or not (the guy from Whole Foods was the foil). I submit that Libertarianism perhaps could not exist in a pure market (ironic, eh?). Anything, market or no, that keeps the marketplace of ideas (no pun intended) going is a-OK in my book...

[J sub D]

Navy just broke their decades long losing streak to Notre Dame. As joe would say, ND's tears are SO YUMMY!

I just orgasmed. Oh wait, here comes another...

[iih]

MNG:

Re NPR: Ditto. Very well said. I am not a member since I pretend that all my tax money goes to NPR and the war (this is how I make myself feel better about the income tax).

Re ND: Then you're either a Michigan, MSU, or Ohio State fan if you are so happy regarding ND.

J sub D: That's funny. I like the NPR ad better. Do you work for NPR? How come you know the ad so well?

[J sub D]

Take away philanthropy and I think you would get virtually no Magazines like Reason.

Bingo. Stop right there. Write a check to NPR. Just do it.

[iih]

Correction: I am not a member since I pretend that all my tax money goes to NPR and NOT the war

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I do, every year J sub D. They deserve it. I imagine they don't need much gov. money, but having a 10-20% foundation makes it easier to take on controversial work and anger some big donor, and to make sure that places like Fargo get service...

iih-You don't have to be a fan of one of those teams to hate on Notre Dame. What other team gets an entire network contract TO THEMSELVES? And their preferential treatment at Bowl selection time is an affront to merit (and a look into the faults of the market by the way, ND get's picked higher than they should because of their fan following, not how good they are). Despite the fact that they have sucked for years and years. I hope NBC is pulling in lots of losses for that...

[J sub D]

I told you I was an NPR listener. But this is one of my radio presets as well.

[iih]

ND is now what 0-7 or 8?

[J sub D]

MNG So do I. I stopped when WDET dropped Car Talk a few years ago. When they brought it back, I started again. I wasn't alone in that. Like I said earlier, they're all grown up. Kick out of the nest.

[iih]

J sub D: Never heard of wrif. I remember 95.5 being popular in AA.

[crimethink]

Mr Nice Guy,

Philanthropy is entirely compatible with a free market (I don't know what a "pure" market is), since it doesn't involve forcibly extracting money from the person giving it. It sounds like the libertarian in your head is getting lippy again.

[iih]

J sub D: WDET, but not Michigan Radio? WDET plays a lot of music during the day, since they don't seem to do that well financially.

[J sub D]

iih, ND is now 1-8.
How sweet it is!

[Kolohe]

Ron Paul doesn't count because he's a statesman
Congressman Paul died? I would have thought that would've made the news. Damned media bias.

[J sub D]

Reception realities. AA is 60 miles away. FM reception is unreliable to nonexistent at that range. If you'd like a lecture on RF propogation in different environments, I'm your man. Since it bores the crap out of everyone, just trust me on this.

[iih]

J sub D: I remember getting the signal in Detroit, or may be not. Certainly at the airport.

[J sub D]

iih, The airport's 25 west of downtown. Almost halfwat to Ann Arbor. It is also not surrounded by 10-50 story steel framed buildings. Trust me.

[iih]

J sub D: OK, OK, already. Got it! Sheesh, I guess my MI years are already becoming too fuzzy.

[J sub D]

I told ya it bores the crap out of everybody! 😉

[iih]

Bore me it did 🙂

[David E. Gallaher]

By this time in a thread, when only the Peanut Gallery is posting, the peanut shells are hip-deep.
Sloshing thru here....
But, has anybody ever heard of the ecommunist/economist by the name of Rendigs Fels? (Reni to his friends.)
Curious.

[Brian Courts]

Reception realities. AA is 60 miles away.

Actually, Ann Arbor is only 36 miles from the center of downtown Detroit, 35.5 miles from WDET's transmitter (and 28 miles from WRIF's transmitter). Shouldn't be too hard to pick up those stations in AA.

[fletch]

JW-

On that note, I just finished reading Peter Hamliton's 2,000 page, 2-book Pandora's Star series. A bit pedantic at times, but a very complelling story line and good cast of characters.

Shh!!!

...or you'll have the Marxist loonies here saying that MorningLightMountain represents "capitalism" at it's 'purest'. :o)

[iih]

Actually, Ann Arbor is only 36 miles from the center of downtown Detroit, 35.5 miles from WDET's transmitter (and 28 miles from WRIF's transmitter). Shouldn't be too hard to pick up those stations in AA.

Thank you Brian. J sub D really made me think that I am loosing my memory. Grrrr, J sub D!!!

[JW]

Shh!!!

...or you'll have the Marxist loonies here saying that MorningLightMountain represents "capitalism" at it's 'purest'. :o)

Oh, if we could only put up a quantum barrier around the Capitol and the White House. If only....

Where's Ozzie when you need him?

[Doctor Duck]

Actually, Ann Arbor is only ... 35.5 miles from WDET's transmitter

The issue was getting WUOM's signal in Detroit, not getting WDET in AA.

WUOM's xmtr is actually about 13 miles NW of AA, on Peach Mountain, roughly 45 air miles from downtown Detroit (up Stinchfield Woods Rd, by the Radio Astronomy site. Say hi!).

Its signal is good over most of metro Detroit, but in the concrete canyons it can be a problem.

[iih]

Good to see that the Ann Arborites are still good and healthy (and libertarian).

[David E. Gallaher]

iih,
Amen.
(And I understand many are textile-free, weather permitting.)

[iih]

David: Any AA connection?

[prolefeed]

The US military had contingency plans in place for a global war against the UK until 1930. There was nothing inevitable about our "special relationship".

The US military probably still has top secret contingency plans along those lines -- they have contingency plans for darn near everything, from what I gathered from the tiny amount of nonclassified stuff my late father (a career military officer) could discuss with me.

[prolefeed]

Yogi, I agree with you about private donations. what my concern is is with rightful ownership of the land in the first place. If I plant a bunch of corn and take time to help it grow, then it would be mine due to the "mixing of my labor". but you can't build a fence around 1000 acres of land and say everything inside it is yours.

The rightful ownership could arise from the various levels of government auctioning off currently public land. Would it all stay as parkland? Probably not, but for that to happen, one would have to assume that the current system of public land ownership embodies the "highest and best use" philosophy of land ownership, which it clearly doesn't.

What we have right now is de facto ownership of vast amounts of land by environmental groups and other special interests who didn't pay anything for it, other than some rent-seeking political favor currying. If you really want to put a dent in poverty, the burst of wealth that would be created by selling off public lands and retiring government debt and the taxes to service that debt would help the poorest people in our society -- and everyone else.

[prolefeed]

I think NPR is a classic example of a government program that works. I, and most people, get far more out of NPR than they pay into. The same can be said, in my opinion, about libraries.

Mr. Nice Guy -- The vast majority of Americans don't listen to NPR at all, but pay for it, so clearly "most people" suffer from its presence. You may argue that the consumer surplus from the few who do listen far exceeds the amount of taxes extracted from the many, but private businesses routinely generate consumer surpluses that wildly exceed revenues.

Public libraries, which are much more widely used, almost certainly generate a consumer surplus well in excess of the taxes extracted -- but you seem to be assuming that PUBLIC libraries would be more efficient and generate a greater consumer surplus than PRIVATE libraries, which seems highly unlikely to anyone who has had the misfortune to observe government programs at close range.

[prolefeed]

Wow, small world. I used to live in your district on Hui Iwa St.(but couldn't vote because I still claimed VA residency). You're right about the level of spending; I can remember Clayton Hee's name of the top of my head even now because of the number of commercials, but couldn't remember yours until a google search connected you with him.

Kenny -- Were you home when I walked Hui Iwa street? Did we meet in person?

Yeah, when you get outspent 4-1, and your opponent starts off with huge name recognition and you start off with about 0.1%, it's tough to close the gap, especially in a district leaning just enough Democratic that the straight party-line voters put you down a thousand votes from the get-go. Those AJA households in Kaneohe were brutal -- got maybe 1 in 6 votes there.

[Kenny]

If this was 2004, I don't think so. The only people I remember ever coming to my door cold-calling were Mormons. Also, I was working odd hours in Fall 2004, as well as being gone periodically for days or weeks at a time off the island, so that is probably the reason.

I always thought AJA's in HI trend the most republican of any group, even more than whites. At least, that's what I remember seeing when I saw ethnic breakdown of Lingle's last election.

But your right in that a right-libertarian is a tough sell in HI, especially with the state's economic bases. I've never been to the LP HQ's down there in Kaka'ako, so I don't know first hand, but my impression they are mostly of the Hawaii's "Natural" High variety (NTTAWTT)

[Kenny]

Just to explain, the way I figured the connection was that you said you lived in windward a couple of threads ago, and that your opponent was pretty much a socialist. I had a hunch, so googled the name in your email address, and saw an old state primary election website and saw your name in the same race as Hee's. I hope that's not creeping you out.

[Grand Chalupa]

Ok, I'm a racist and here's why today I feel more self righteous than usual.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/03/torture.protest.ap/index.html

"Hate crimes are out of control in America," Malik Shabazz, a legal adviser to Williams and her family and a founder of Black Lawyers for Justice, told the group.

"Nooses are being hung and our women are being raped by white moms. What happened to Megan Williams was a hate crime and we want this prosecuted as a hate crime."

Now, what happened to that poor girl in the story above was a terrible sickening crime. However, according to Pat Buchanan's Death of the West on pages 68-69

-In 1987 when the crime was rape black criminals chose white victims 28 percent of the time. White criminals chose black victims 0 percent of the time. The person conduction the study couldn't find a single case where the criminal was white and victim black.
-Blacks had committed 90 percent of interraial violent crimes in 1994.

And last but not least..

-Even in the "hate crime" category, in 1994 blacks were twice as likely to be the assilant as the victim.

Where the fuck do blacks get off acting like they are the victims? Who needs protecting?

And just remember, if you end up arguing with me you can just yell "racist" and declare victory at any time.

[Cesar]

Grand Chalupa, that can't be you. "Racist" is one of those fake PC-terms the real GC would never use!

[SIV]

Nothing on Fred Thompson's dope dealer yet?

[Justice Dept]

A February 1997 report on rape and sexual-based crime published by the United States Department of Justice stated that of the crimes surveyed, 56% of arrestees were "White", 42% were "Black", and 2% were of other races. The report additionally noted that "[v]ictims of rape were about evenly divided between whites and blacks; in about 88% of forcible rapes, the victim and offender were of the same race."

Greenfeld, Lawrence A. (February 1997). Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault. United States Department of Justice.

[Justice Dept]

A break down of the numbers.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/ovrelracetab.htm

[Cesar]

Nothing on Fred Thompson's dope dealer yet?

I haven't heard anything about this. Do tell.

[Cesar]

Justice Dept-

Yeah, by far most crime is intra-racial, not inter-racial.

[fbi]

for 2004

Anti-white victims 1,027 offenders 1,085
Anti-black victims 3,475 offenders 2,694

Source: Crime in the United States, 2004, FBI, Uniform Crime Reports.

[fbi]

Racial Bias

In 2005, law enforcement agencies reported that 4,691 hate crime offenses were racially motivated. Of these offenses:

* 68.2 percent were triggered by anti-black bias.
* 19.9 percent were motivated by anti-white bias.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/incidentsoffenses.htm

[fbi]

For 2005

An analysis of available race data for the 6,804 known hate crime offenders revealed that:

* 60.5 percent were white.
* 19.9 percent were black.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/offenders.htm

[Grand Chalupa]

Um, if a people make up 10% of the population but commit 40% of the crime, they don't come out looking very good.

Absolute numbers mean nothing, do I really need to explain that to you?

And by the own numbers black on white crime is still twice white on black crime for 2004.

Of course a crime is a crime and I wouldn't care if each one was treated equal regardless of race. The problem is the media reporting patterns and the protest of black "leaders".

The only explanation that makes sense is elitist liberals and blacks have a need to paint a picture of evil whites praying on innocent, nobel blacks.

[fbi]

2005 number of black offenders involved in a hate crime = 1,357 while number of victims = 3,322

Blacks were about 2.5 times as likely to be victim as offender.

[Grand Chalupa]

An analysis of available race data for the 6,804 known hate crime offenders revealed that:

* 60.5 percent were white.
* 19.9 percent were black.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/offenders.htm

Nice try, but blacks are also the overwhelming perpetrators of "anti-black" hate crimes. How this makes sense, I have no idea.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/table1.htm

Blacks according to my math commit 38% of race based hate crimes and are 38% of the victimes.

No matter how you slice it, no detailed analysis of crime rates can make American blacks look good.

[Grand Chalupa]

Oops, I read that data wrong.

Ok, looks like I'll have to give you "hate crimes" but they're still a very small percentage of overall crime. Also, a lot of what counts as a hate crime is subjective anyway. There was this story of these two white kids getting raped and tortured to death by five or six blacks. The blacks weren't charged with a hate crime because there is no white Jesse Jackson.

The only reason hate crimes get the overwhelming attention is because in the liberal lexicon being a "racist" is much more evil than just being a regular old rapist or murder.

[Duke & Duke for one dollar]

Exhibit A: Billy Ray Valentine
Ehxibit B: Louis Winthorp III

no role of socioeconomics on crime?

[fbi]

Absolute numbers mean nothing

Not strictly true. Absolute numbers must be interpreted according to the meaning they do provide.

The bigger question is what meaning do you assign to the information you present?

The only explanation that makes sense is elitist liberals and blacks have a need to paint a picture of evil whites praying on innocent, nobel blacks.

No one has presented a case that we have seen alleging that whites are typically evil, but the fact that blacks are 2.5 times as likely to be a victim as an offender in interracial hate crime, the fact that 70% of the time offenders perpetrate an anti-black hate crime, and only 20% anti-white, seems to argue for violent crime motivated by racial bias to be a bigger problem for blacks than for whites.

A small percentage of whites are racist.
Some of those racists are also violent against blacks.
A small percentage of blacks are racist.
Some of those racists are violent towards whites.
Overall it creates a larger problem for blacks than whites.

Racist attitudes, similar in shape to those you hold, provide a justification for that violence in the minds of the offenders.

[Grand Chalupa]

no role of socioeconomics on crime?

No role of genetics in socioeconmic status?

[Neu Mejican]

No role of genetics in socioeconmic status?

Not very large, actually.

http://www.santafe.edu/~bowles/2002JEP.pdf
http://www.santafe.edu/research/publications/workingpapers/01-01-005.pdf

[Neu Mejican]

The only reason hate crimes get the overwhelming attention is because in the liberal lexicon being a "racist" is much more evil than just being a regular old rapist or murder.

An equation using the standard sense of three common words, "racist," "rapist," "evil."

Rapist = evil

Another

Racist = evil

Evil of rapist > evil of racist

Racist + Rapist = most evil case.

[VM]

The only explanation that makes sense is elitist liberals and blacks have a need to paint a picture of evil whites praying on innocent, nobel blacks.

arwooo?

who is doing that hier? The only one who is presenting an evil vs noble is you with your genetics causing socioeocnomic status.

"liberal elites"? that's funny! you make me laugh! and your cute floppy ears really make me want to put ribbons in your hair!

*look out! Persian Dentists! RESIST RESIST!*

(I guess brits are genetically weak, too? That explains why you're tougher than them? How can you explain the genetics causing libural elitizm? So you're a genetic freak? You know what we do to those.)

[Cesar]

Can we talk about Fred Thompson's dope dealer?

[Cesar]

For hating liberals, Chalupa sure does whine like one.

[Grand Chalupa]

An equation using the standard sense of three common words, "racist," "rapist," "evil."

Rapist = evil

Another

Racist = evil

Evil of rapist > evil of racist

Racist + Rapist = most evil case.

My calculation would be

Rapist = Evil

Evil of class jealousy > Evil of racism

Evil of rapist acting out of hatred of those better than him > Evil of racist rapist

I don't see why either my or your prefrences should be written into law though.

[Asshat]

STEVE SAILER!!!!!

[Cesar]

Grand Chalupa=Right-wing College kid in the Che Pinochet t-shirt

[Neu Mejican]

Grande Chalupa (our shallow boat)

Tell me again how you are determining "class" versus "race?"

What is the intersection between the two?

And how do you justify your equation:

evil of "acting out of hatred of those better than him" > evil of acting out of hatred of those different than him?

better by what metric?

[Neu Mejican]

It seems our shallow boat's equation is based on this conceptualization...

Acts based on jealousy are worse than acts based on xenophobia.

Does that make xenophobia a legitimate justification for lesser evils as well, such as denial of equal consideration in social and government policy?

[Cesar]

Chalupa, have you ever lived in a majority black city or neighborhood? I have (and currently do). I've never been the victim of a crime, I've never really felt unsafe, and I don't wet my pants when I see a black face.

[Neu Mejican]

In other words Grande Chalupa (our shallow boat), let us, for the sake of argument, take your essentialist world view as both legitimate and correct in its description of the world.

If, according to that view, race determines worth due to average tendency for certain universally agreed upon negative behaviors, then what social and government policy changes flow from that?

Given the essentialist view, does the difference in someone's basic nature justify different treatment under the law?

Note, that the essentialist view is not the same view used by "liberals" to justify policies such as affirmative action. Affirmative action is based on differences in the external situation between two individuals, not on constitutional differences that flow from their essential nature.

[Neu Mejican]

oops,

between two individuals

should read "between two groups"

[Cesar]

Mejican-

From a previous thread I asked him a similar question and he basically said non-white and non-East Asian immigration should end. Which is funny because that would exclude his own family.

[Neu Mejican]

And Grande Chalupa,

Have you considered that it is really the mesomorphs that have the highest crime rate? (see Sheldon's work on this from the 40's and 50's)

(http://www.kheper.net/topics/typology/somatotypes.html)

Mesomorphy, of course, is mostly a genetic trait. Does it justify special policies to address the dangers of having mesomorphs among us?

[Neu Mejican]

A recent piece of research,

http://euc.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/2/3/287

This article puts forward a theory that takes account of biological as well as environmental factors, and predicts that variables such as age, gender and social status will be associated with offending probabilities. It is argued that male sex hormones operating on the human brain increase the probability of competitive/victimizing behaviour. This type of behaviour (or behavioural tendency) is hypothesized to exist along a continuum, with 'crude' (criminal) forms at one end and 'sophisticated' (commercial) forms at the other. Individuals with the greatest capacities to learn and plan will move rapidly after puberty from criminal to non-criminal forms of competitive/victimizing behaviour. The theory predicts among other things that serious criminality will be concentrated in adolescent and young adult males of low social status. Evidence is reviewed on links between criminality and various biological variables, including testosterone, mesomorphy, maternal smoking during pregnancy, hypoglycemia, epilepsy, altered heart rate and skin conductivity, cortisol, serotonin, monoamine oxidase, and certain brainwave patterns.

I note that even this essentialist theory of crime does not include race as an explanatory component.

Mesomorphy and gender play a role.

I think we need to stop immigration of men. Only allow women in. That would have the biggest impact on crime.

[Neu Mejican]

*for the shallow thinkers among us...I don't think essentialist arguments do a very good job at explaining complex human behaviors.

[Shallow Thinker]

hrumph.
*stares out the window wondering about the mystery that is New Mejican*

*dammit. My Taco Bell fell on the floor. I dropped my... wait for it.

I dropped my...

taco.

[Neu Mejican]

merkinworld,

=^)

[Grand Chalupa]

In other words Grande Chalupa (our shallow boat), let us, for the sake of argument, take your essentialist world view as both legitimate and correct in its description of the world.

If, according to that view, race determines worth due to average tendency for certain universally agreed upon negative behaviors, then what social and government policy changes flow from that?

Given the essentialist view, does the difference in someone's basic nature justify different treatment under the law?

No, let's end affirmative action, aid to Africa, "hate crimes" nonsense, all diversity programs, make Black Entertainment Television just as socially unacceptable as the KKK and treat everybody equal.

As Thomas Sowell said "Saying everybody should be treated equal and be judged by the same standards would've made you a radical in the 50s, a liberal in the 60s and a racist today."

I personally believe in a free society blacks will end up poorer and more criminal on average regardless, but by all means let them prove me wrong. And of course considering the races will always live in unequal circumstance blacks will always claim they are opressed rather than facing their inferiority so racial tensions will be inevitable. That's why it would've better had blacks and whites never lived in the same societies in the first place, but its too late to do anything about that now and the fault lies completley with Europeans for that.

Of course I dream about a robust eugenics program but naturally am wary of government with that kind of power. It's neccessary to create conditions for the best of humanity to breed and try to stop the worst from doing so. We don't need any kind of Nazi dictatorship for that, it can be done through more rational charity and financial incentives. At the very least we can stop subsidizing illegitimate children!

Oh well, I can dream.

[Neu Mejican]

Grande Chalupa (our shallow boat),

Of course I dream about a robust eugenics program...to create conditions for the best of humanity to breed and try to stop the worst from doing so.

Ok,you think that this eugenics program should be based on breeding between "the best." So, if I follow your twisted logic, you are advocating intra-racial breeding only.

Your understanding of genetics seems even weaker than I thought, since you believe that inbreeding will produce the "best" results?

A more successful eugenics program* would require inter-racial breeding, which is facilitated by social mixing of the races.

*talk about your difficult to define concepts.

[Glimpse into the brain of]

hier

[keed keed]

[Neu Mejican]

Black Entertainment Television just as socially unacceptable as the KKK

Wait a second.
Is our shallow boat really Aaron McGruder?

http://www.theapesheet.com/archivesix/mcgruder.html

[iih]

That is soooo wierd.... today while driving I thought to myself "Hmmmm, I haven't seen Chalupa in many days on H&R! I wonder what happened." And lo and behold here he is!

[iih]

wierd --> weird

[Neu Mejican]

Re: BET

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764178337558873839

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_Wuz_Here

[iih]

I am sure everyone is enjoying the rich intellectual discussion with Grand Chalupa, but have you met the King himself yet?

[Grand Chalupa]

When you say what I would favor are you asking me what I would do if I was an absolute dictator or what are more realistic policies I favor that could be accomplished in America?

I'm not iterested in telling people specifically who to breed with.

If I was an absolute dictator...

-Only allow white immigrants and encourage white people to have many children in order to get the population of America 90% white or so. Then we allow in only the best of Asia, Latin America and Africa. Best can be determined by looks, intelligence, financial success, health and lack of being prone to criminality. My desire for racial homogeonity is based more on Huntingtonian concepts of a nation rather than genetics.

-Sterilize convicted murders and rapists, the handicapped and anybody with a low enough IQ.

-Encourage the good looking and intelligent to procreate. This may be difficult to do while maintaing a free society. Financial incentives seem the least intrusive way to do it. Maybe we can offer free plastic surgery to those with deformities in exchange for them agreeing to sterilize themselves. Or free health care to people with heridatary diseases to do the same. In today's world we debate liberty vs. equality. In my fantasyland it's liberty vs. improving the species.

Of course none of that will ever happened. Back on earth, I favor...

-Ending affirmative action
-Closing the border
-Getting rid of all forms of social welfare
-Ending foreign aid

In other words, I support Ron Paul!

[Grand Chalupa]

I had a lot of fun writing that previous post, by the way.

[Cesar]

I still find it funny that if we followed your advice, Chalupa, you would be in Damascus right now.

[J sub D]

That is soooo wierd.... today while driving I thought to myself "Hmmmm, I haven't seen Chalupa in many days on H&R! I wonder what happened." And lo and behold here he is!

So it's your fault, iih? I should have expected that. You are aware that you WILL have to do some form of penance. Irresponsible, evil thoughts are not to be taken lightly.

[J sub D]

I still find it funny that if we followed your advice, Chalupa, you would be in Damascus right now.

And sterilized.

[iih]

So it's your fault, iih? I should have expected that. You are aware that you WILL have to do some form of penance. Irresponsible, evil thoughts are not to be taken lightly.

I have to pay for it. I am actually off to watch the BIG GAME.

[Cesar]

So Chalupa, you would like to be a Soviet Central Planner? Yeah, I mean, central planning culture and genetics has to work just as well as centrally planning economies, right? Right?

[Grand Chalupa]

I still find it funny that if we followed your advice, Chalupa, you would be in Damascus right now.

Did you miss the part about the best non-whites in the world being assimilated into the gene pool? It's extremly easy for ones with handsome features and high IQs like myself.

Central genetic planning is a fantasy. What we could do though, is at least stop actively working against the species with charity, social welfare, etc. I also like Ron Paul's take on states rights. Perhaps I would one day be able to grab power in Idaho or Wyoming and build my master race at the state level.

[Cesar]

It's extremly easy for ones with handsome features and high IQs like myself.

I've only had one other person in my life say something like this to me, and he was really high on powder at the time. If you happen to be under the influence, have fun, don't drive, and come down gently!

On the other hand, if you were sober/clean when you wrote that, it just makes you a massive prick.

[SIV]

From a previous thread I asked him a similar question and he basically said non-white and non-East Asian immigration should end.

Does every weekend thread turn into "Who are White People". Nearly everyone from the Middle East or "Near Asia" as well as most North Africans and the majority of those from the Indian Sub-Continent are Caucasian.

Fred Thompson's dope dealer

[iih]

Yes, please just ignore Chalupa. His discussions are usually extremely boring and minimally intellectual, and repetitive.

[Cesar]

Does every weekend thread turn into "Who are White People". Nearly everyone from the Middle East or "Near Asia" as well as most North Africans and the majority of those from the Indian Sub-Continent are Caucasian.

So Bobby Jindal isn't the first non-white governor of a deep-south state since reconstruction?

As for Thompson's dope dealer, someone should ask him if his friend would have been better off spending the last 20 years in prison.

[SIV]

So Bobby Jindal isn't the first non-white governor of a deep-south state since reconstruction?

He is "non-white" but he is Caucasian.
I'm trying to use a standard taxonomic definition. "Race" is all so much bullshit.
Are Jews "White"?
For your identity politics lefty women and gays probably can't be white people. Excepting Republican women and closeted gays of course they are "white".

Fred's pilot was convicted of more than 20 years worth of drug crimes under todays laws.
I would doubt he supports the WoDs.

[Cesar]

Fred's pilot was convicted of more than 20 years worth of drug crimes under todays laws.
I would doubt he supports the WoDs.

Of course the pilot doesn't. But Fred does. At least I assume he does. There are only a few candidates that want to even remotely reform the war on drugs--

Ron Paul
Dennis K.
Mike Gravel
and now Chris Dodd.

I wish the list were longer. But can't "send the wrong message to the children" as John Edwards would say.

[iih]

I would doubt he supports the WoDs.

I think he would. He would probably make less money than when it is illegal.

[SIV]

Cesar:

Of those candidates, Paul is the frontrunner!

Fred is the only other candidate, and the only "top tier", to have a history of support of Federalism.

[J sub D]

I think he would. He would probably make less money than when it is illegal.

There is mountains of truth in that statement. If you really want to hurt the columbian drug lords, END PROHIBITION.

Nah, that would be too damned easy. No funds for the CIA, DEA, FBI, state and local goon squads police departments, Coast Guard, BATF, and whoever I'm omitting.

But, y'know, it would work. Drug lord income would plummet to near zero, the peasants raising the formerly illicit crops would be better off, and the endemic police corruption and narco terrorism in Latin Amaerica would be dealt a major, likely fatal, blow. Those are just the positive effects, that I'd bet on, outside our borders! Domestically, well you know the major positives and the minor negatives.

Oh yeah, I forgot foreign aid for drug interdiction and eradication.

[/screed]

[J sub D]

This link should have been in my previous screed somewhere.

[whit]

"An analysis of available race data for the 6,804 known hate crime offenders revealed that:

* 60.5 percent were white.
* 19.9 percent were black."

the problem with this statistic is that it fails to take into account the "hispanic" thang.

this is how it works. hispanic is a ethnicity, not a race. it basically means being from a spanish speaking culture. thus one can be white hispanic, black hispanic (think cuba) or even asian hispanic (rarer, but still possible.

there is a LOT of violent crime between blacks and hispanics (heck, in LA alone... think rival gangs).

when a black guy commits a "hate crime" against an hispanic (the vast majority of hispanics ARE white), it goes down as hispanic victim and black offender

however... when a hispanic (who happens to be white) commits a "hate crime" against a black victim, it goes down as a white on black hate crime

iow, hispanic is a "victim class" but when hispanics are offenders, their race (which is usually white) is the registered demographic.

this does tend to skew the stats.

regardless, the reality is clear that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of "hate crimes" vs. whites, which is kind of ironic considering that they are viewed constantly as victims of hate crimes (which they certainly are) but rarely as offenders (which they also are) of hate crimes.

[iih]

J sub D:

It is easy (I think). Has this person ever called for legalization? If he never did (more likely), then he's probably better off with it illegal than legal.

[J sub D]

As many have pointed out, the problems associated with even defining race are nigh insurmountable. I contend the Barack Obama is "white" and Tiger Woods is "asian". Any argument against my classifications have no more, and in Tiger's case probably less, validity. What all of this crap leads to is if Barack Obama attacks Tiger Woods at a charity golf tourney it is:

A) Black on black crime.
B) Black on Asian crime.
C) White on black crime.
D) White on Asian crime,

I'm confident that groves of trees have been sacrificed for all of the studies, instuctions and memoranda written about this subject. Perhaps in the aforementioned assault case we should describe it as:

E) Adult male on Adult male crime.

Attempting to define individuals as members of groups based on ill defined and irrelevant characteristics (race)* demeans them as individuals. That IS a crime.

*Ectomorphs rule!

[Cesar]

Fred is the only other candidate, and the only "top tier", to have a history of support of Federalism.

Federalism without anti-Prohibitionism is dead to me.

[iih]

I am now starting to wonder whether Ron Paul's 30-year run for congress was a good presidential career move, given that Freddie is now considered top-tier. RP should have opted for Hollywood.

[Cesar]

Of course, SIV, the question is would Fred Thompson's support of federalism allow Grand Chalupa to become Il Duce of Wyoming into and make it a breeding ground for the MasterRace and let F. Le Mur do the same in Idaho?

[Ken Mitchell]

SOME of you appear to have forgotten to read the last few Asimov books; in which we learn that Hari Seldon is merely a puppet being mind-controlled by the 50-Kyear-old super-robot Daneel Olivaw.

So Krugman wants to be a puppet?

[IceCreamMan]

As with most of Asimov's work, The Foundation arc was filled with insights. One quote from Foundation that resonates today is, "Never let your sense of morality keep you from doing what's right."

Isaac was a lefty, but had a fantastic grasp of history. I read his "Chronology of the World" over and over. His insight into the betrayals and cowardice leading up to WWII make me wonder if he would be comfortable with the moonbat left today.

[Cesar]

Since Red State went batshit over Ron Paul, if anyone is interested apparently the liberal femi-blog Pandagon has too. They've brought out all the usual tropes about libertarians. Ron Paul doesn't believe in roads, Ron Paul hates poor people, Ron Paul hates women. He hates blacks. Did I mention he hates women and blacks wants everyone in Drafur to die? Its a hilarious read in its ignorance.

[SIV]

Cesar:

The PandaTwats have one thing right:

If Republicans were smart they would actually embrace and back Ron Paul. Then he might have a chance at winning. Their only issue with Ron Paul they don't like is that he wants out of Iraq. Everything else (totally fucking dismantle government) the Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians are on board with.

They understand the relationship of libertarians and conservatives better than most Hit & Run commenters and Libertarians do.

[Neu Mejican]

Our shallow boat says:
It's extremly easy for ones with handsome features and high IQs like myself.

Cesar replies

if you were sober/clean when you wrote that, it just makes you a massive prick.

I don't think that was the sentence that he wrote that makes him a massive prick...

JsubD,
Like I should trust the words of an ectomorph...

Endomorphs Unite!
Viva las Gordas!

[Cesar]

If Republicans were smart they would actually embrace and back Ron Paul. Then he might have a chance at winning.

That much is true.

Their only issue with Ron Paul they don't like is that he wants out of Iraq.

Thats completely false.

Everything else (totally fucking dismantle government) the Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians are on board with.

Now, that demonstrates they have a third-grade Manichaean view of politics (RED VS. BLUE!!!!!) thats for sure!

And we don't want to dismantle the government. We want to dramatically reduce it. Confusing, again, libertarianism with all-out anarchism. Yes, that can include infrastructure i.e. roads and bridges. One billion dollars for a shrimp museum in Louisiana? Not so much. Shocking, I know!

[Sparky]

"Everything else (totally fucking dismantle government) the Republicans, Conservatives, and Libertarians are on board with."

Who are these Republicans who want to "totally fucking dismantle government"? Are they off somewhere playing poker with the Yeti, Elvis, and the Loch Ness Monster?

[Pandagonian]

Who are these Republicans who want to "totally fucking dismantle government"? Are they off somewhere playing poker with the Yeti, Elvis, and the Loch Ness Monster?

TEH EVIL RETHUGLICANZ ARE OUT TO MAKE OUR BRIDGES COLLAPSE!!!! HAVENT U HEARD??

[iih]

Cesar:

Just tried posting on their blog, but my message wouldn't appear. May be because I used a false email address.

[Cesar]

The moderate comments there. Its an echo-chamber. If they don't like what you say, they replace your post with a Youtube video of bad 80s bands. Don't bother posting there, its not worth it. Just watch, it gets pretty funny.

[iih]

How many years will it take until those democratic party liberal supporters realize that big government programs will only result in utter failure? 20-30 years after they succeed in having universal health care? If this is the only way they'll get to find out, I'd say give it to them so that it becomes empirically verified that the system would be screwed.

BTW, I had never made my mind about minimum wage (remember, I was not conscientiously "libertarian-leaning" before early last summer) until I heard Walter Block's Mises Institute talk on the subject.

[Scott Wood]

I used to daydream about basically the same thing: becoming such a great economist that I could predict and manipulate the macro-economy with pinpoint precision. Then I studied more advanced economics, and learned that that was impossible.

[Neu Mejican]

Whit

the reality is clear that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of "hate crimes" vs. whites, which is kind of ironic considering that they are viewed constantly as victims of hate crimes (which they certainly are) but rarely as offenders (which they also are) of hate crimes.

Hate crimes motivated by the offender's bias toward a particular ethnicity/national origin were directed at 1,228 victims. Of these victims:

* 58.8 percent(722)were targeted because of an anti-Hispanic bias.
* 41.2 percent were victimized because of a bias against other ethnicities/national origins.

So if we take the number of white victims and add them to black on white crimes we get 975 + 722 = 1697

Total black victims in the same time period = 3,322 (1.7 times the total number of victims).

If we look at proportionate victims, with whites outnumbering black by about 8 times...

The reality is clear that blacks are victims of a disproportionate amount of "hate crimes" vs. whites. Which might explain the reason for the common sense view on the topic that it is a larger problem for the (smaller) black community than it is for the (much larger) white community.

[J sub D]

Cesar, I sent Pandagon a nice little pro-Ron note. I didn't say fuck you, asshat or dumbshit once. Self discipline like that is not normally one of my traits.

[Neu Mejican]

Whit,

The total numbers of offenders, of course, is unaffected by the bias you note.

Race of offender is kept independent of victim..

iirc around 4000 for white offenders
around 1000 for blacks.

I wonder if the disproportionate targeting of blacks might result in a back-lash effect that explains part of the disproportionate number of blacks involved in hate-crimes.

[J sub D]

Endomorphs, large, greedy, polluting bastards...
[gruble, grumble, grumble]

[Cesar]

J Sub D-

I think it was you that agreed with me its ridiculous how Team Red and Team Blue each think their opposite has some master coherent strategy that they work day and night to implement omnipotently. If you want that kind of nutjob talk from Team Blue, look no further than Pandagon!

I think its also very funny that they think a freaking OBGYN is a woman-hating misogynist! God, the mental gymnastics one would have to pull off to believe that.

[iih]

I didn't say fuck you, asshat or dumbshit once.

Twice?

[iih]

Cesar: They did post my comment!

[J sub D]

I didn't say fuck you, asshat or dumbshit once.

Twice?

Oh ye of little faith. :-]

[Neu Mejican]

Cesar,

It only takes one watching of the filmography of David Cronenberg to get those mental gymnastic fully fleshed out.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094964/

[Chris Smith]

@Aresen
The Foundation novels treated history as if it were some Newtonian, deterministic thing.
People are far more chaotic than that.
The novels are more naive than repulsive.

[JeremyR]

He wasn't mind controlled by Daneel Olivaw, more like manipulated by him. And he also had a hot robot chick for a girlfriend. Maybe that's what Krugman wants?

[prolefeed]

Kenny -- AJAs are the most party-line Democratic voting bloc in Hawaii, especially with the older generation. The newer generation, not quite so much so. It's hard to break out voting results by ethnicity, since that's not listed on the ballot, but after going door-to-door to every walkable house in the district it was pretty clear who was voting for me and who wasn't. I could usually get a sense if I had someone's vote before I got to their door: Well-maintained yards in an upscale neighborhood were generally votes for me. Angry dogs in debris-strewn yards with cars sporting pro-union bumper stickers on a rusted fender -- not so much so.

Trying to read anything into Lingle's reelection campaign can be misleading, because she won 51 out of 51 House districts against an exceedingly weak candidate -- and because Lingle is a centrist who could easily run as a Democrat if she so chose to. She gets votes that no other Republican in Hawaii can get.

I'm impressed that you deduced who I was from the few personal items I dropped in my comments. Are you in Naval Intelligence? As for your concern about that being perceived as creepy -- didn't really register on my radar. You meet a lot of tweaked out people on the campaign trail if you meet thousands of people like I did. Hell, a few of them right here on Reason, proudly displaying their dysfunctions for all the really, really tiny libertarian world to see.

OTOH, if you really are an axe-wielding sociopathic creep, please let me know so I can stock up on ammo, yeah? 😉

[whit]

first of all, if white hispancis are counted as whites (but not hispanics) as offenders, but as hispanics when they are victims, that necessarily underrepresents the reality of whites as victims, and overrepresents them as offenders.

also, according to the UCR: "Among the 8,433 known offenders reported to be associated with hate crime incidents, 59 percent were white, and 27 percent were black"

so 27 percent of offenders were black but blacks only make up about 13% of the population.

how can this disparity not be more clear?

[J sub D]

Cesar, these people over at Pandagon seem like they might be fun. Maybe I'll stop in occasionally, stink up the conversation with a paragraph or two, listen to some rightious, ill informed anger and leave. It could be fun. Wait till they hear my views on "hate crimes". Y'know, unlike all of the "love crimes" we have going down in the big city.

Anyway, thanks for the site alert. It semms like spinning 'em up will be like hunting at the zoo. No trolling, just honest informed, mostly libertarian opinion. I could be a troll, but there's that damned pride thingee...

[iih]

J sub D: Did your post get published? I got two already 🙂 Someone attacked my writing ability already.

[Cesar]

Liberals can be fun as long as you don't mention Republicans to them.. Then they turn into raging maniacs screaming about how George Bush and Dick Cheney are secretly planning in the basement of the white house to repeal the 13th amendment and conquer the world or something.

If you want to comment there, start on topics you agree with liberals on. Drugs, gays, abortion (if inclined to be pro-choice), and Republican douchebaggery. Then after a few weeks start on a thread you disagree with them on. Harder to label you as a Team Red "fellow traveler" then. Thats what I generally do if I feel inclined to comment on liberal blogs.

[iih]

Then they turn into raging maniacs screaming about how George Bush and Dick Cheney are secretly planning in the basement of the white house to repeal the 13th amendment and conquer the world or something.

They aren't?

If you want to comment there, start on topics you agree with liberals on. Drugs, gays, abortion (if inclined to be pro-choice), and Republican douchebaggery. Then after a few weeks start on a thread you disagree with them on. Harder to label you as a Team Red "fellow traveler" then. Thats what I generally do if I feel inclined to comment on liberal blogs.

Being in a liberal state, this is what I am getting to find out.

[Cesar]

No, iih, I don't think they are. At worst, they just want money and power. At best, they really think they are improving the country. I like to assume people who disagree with me are wrong before I conclude they are evil. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence and error.

[Grand Chalupa]

first of all, if white hispancis are counted as whites (but not hispanics) as offenders, but as hispanics when they are victims, that necessarily underrepresents the reality of whites as victims, and overrepresents them as offenders.

also, according to the UCR: "Among the 8,433 known offenders reported to be associated with hate crime incidents, 59 percent were white, and 27 percent were black"

so 27 percent of offenders were black but blacks only make up about 13% of the population.

how can this disparity not be more clear?

And what exactly is the nature of these "hate crimes" anyway? What percentage is stuff like hanging a noose from a tree or getting in a bar fight and shouting out a racial slur in the heat of the moment?

I'm much more interested in overall crime rates, not this PC garbage.

[J sub D]

J sub D: Did your post get published?

No. It must have been something I said. 😉 Really, I didn't cuss. I did link to the WoD Clock and said REMEMBER KATHRYN JOHNSTON! but that shouldn't have raised too much of a stink.

Maybe I screwed up my post. There's a first time for everything.

[Cesar]

J Sub D

Do post what you said here in case it doesn't get published.

[iih]

Cesar-

I really do agree with you. I was just being sarcastic. When you said:

I like to assume people who disagree with me are wrong before I conclude they are evil. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence and error.

I immediately remembered a famous saying by a 10th or 11th century philosopher/thinker who once said:

"I am correct, but might be wrong. My opponent is wrong, but might be correct."

This is deep! Think how American politicians would be like if they adopted this approach.

[iih]

Do post what you said here in case it doesn't get published.

Yeah, J sub D, post here. Prove that you have been a good sport and haven't cursed.

[crimethink]

My favorite part of the Pandagon thread is right at the beginning where everyone is going apeshit over the fact that RP wants to issue letters of marque and reprisal against al-Qaeda and its leaders. I'm guessing they don't understand what a letter of marque and reprisal is, since they presumably support the much more destructive (though justified) war in Afghanistan.

[Jim C.]

Asimov based the Foundation stories on "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." The Foundation is a rough analogue of the Catholic Church and Hari Seldon is a rough analogue of Christ.

So Krugman wants to establish his own church with himself as the Messiah. I'm not surprised.

[Cesar]

Crimethink-

I thought that was pretty damn funny too. They actually think it means Ron Paul wants us to prey on the shipping of other nations! Morons.

[crimethink]

That person picking on iih's grammar is ... wow. Shooting another hole in the myth of progressives being more tolerant of ambiguity, (s)he is.

[iih]

I am now really curious, what could have J sub D have said (politely) that wouldn
t warrant publication of his post? Hmmmm.

[Aresen]

Chris Smith | November 4, 2007, 8:55pm | #

@Aresen
The Foundation novels treated history as if it were some Newtonian, deterministic thing.
People are far more chaotic than that.
The novels are more naive than repulsive.

I agree that human affairs are chaotic - and, in that sense - the novels are naive. I still call them repulsive in the sense that, postutating a 'social science' which could be so deterministic, there should exist any group with such power - the Second Foundation, the Master Computer, God, whatever - to control the destiny and affairs of the human race.

To be fair to Asimov, I think that he himself would have doubted the possibility that such a science could exist. Thinking of present day humanity alone, we are examining a system of 6 x 10^9 variables. I understand that the difficulty of solving an equation rises at least exponentially with the number of variables. (Any mathematians, please confirm or correct me on this!) It would appear, therefore, that even if such a theoretical science could exist, the equations would be unsolvable.

[Aresen]

iih | November 4, 2007, 10:17pm | #

I am now really curious, what could have J sub D have said (politely) that wouldn
t warrant publication of his post? Hmmmm.

I am quite sure that J sub D would not submit a tasteless comment any more than I would.

Uh, maybe I should rephrase that.

[iih]

Aresen:

Those Canucks aren't doing very well in the NHL!

[Thomas Paine\'s Goiter]

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Tanzania?

[crimethink]

iih,

FWIW, they also didn't post the thing I wrote, in which I politely explained the back story around the "Paul is a racist" article...but the guy who was criticizing your grammar posted again after I did, and they published his...

[Aresen]

Those Canucks aren't doing very well in the NHL!

Fortunately, I'm not a Canucks fan.

Unfortunately, I cheer for the Oilers. (I grew up in Edmonchuk, what can I say?)

[Thomas Paine\'s Goiter]

Unfortunately, I cheer for the Oilers. (I grew up in Edmonchuk, what can I say?)

Injuries are destroying us this year.

[iih]

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Tanzania?

The US, Canada?

[iih]

crimethink:

They posted mine at 12:31. May be you argued better than I do for RP, that must be why.

[Kolohe]

Re: the Pandagon thread

I understand the symbology of the I-35 bridge, but what's the deal with the floater dude(?) in a hawaiian shirt and hotpants?

[Lord Locksley]

Well,not to put to fine a point on it,but Paul Krugman is 'at the opposite end of the galaxy' from both Hari Seldon AND Isaac Asimov.

[Jan Wenner]

Rolling Stone is still around?

And people still read it?

[herodotus]

Rock Journalism is the most pernicious anti-musical phenomonon in modern history.

It is composed of musically illiterate music fans celebrating the musical 'insights' of their favorite celebrities, whose musical gifts (or lack thereof) they will never understand.

It is a celebration of the musical ignorance of the majority, and it has as much to do with why modern pop music is as wretched as it is as any 'greedy record executive'.

It mistakes celebrity gossip for music news.

It mistakes celebrities for musicians.

It extolls the virtues of the shallow and the photogenic over the real substance of music, which it fails to understand, most of all due to the fact that it's practicioners have no musical knowledge and would hide it assiduously if they did have any.

Jesus F Christ Rolling Stone's vaunted reviewing staff greeted Led Zeppelin's last album with a long diatribe concerning just why John Bonham is such an annoying drummer!! One of the most universally admired rock musicians of the past 30 years was dismissed with an 'I'm so cool' roll of the eyes.

Rolling Stone sucks.

ALL rock journalism sucks.

Sorry for the timing, but I didn't see this series of blog entries until now.

[VM]

Jan - dunno. But one thing seems certain, herodotus certainly doesn't read it...

[newbury]

"iih | November 3, 2007, 1:43pm | #
J sub D:

tsk tsk Canada does not have state parks ;-)"

If you meant that Canada does not have 'state' parks, because the regional units are called 'provinces', you get a gold star for nit-picking pedantry.
If you thought that Canada's provinces do not have provincial parks, you are not a good prospect as a competitor on 'Are you smarter than a 5th grader', although you will be laughed at.

[Aresen]

newbury

Note the winking smiley at the end of iih's comment.

It indicates a joke.

You just won a gold star of your own.

[Neu Mejican]

Whit,

Blacks make up 13% of the population.
According to your numbers they commit 27% of the hate crimes.

"Among the 8,433 known offenders reported to be associated with hate crime incidents, 59 percent were white, and 27 percent were black"

That means blacks commit these crimes at a higher rate than their % in the population. We agree.

Don't forget however, that blacks make up 13% of the population, but bear the burden of 2/3rds of the hate crimes attributed to racial or ethnic motivation.

So, in which direction is the disparity more severe? blacks over-representation as offenders or blacks over-representation as victims?

The numbers show strongly that their over-representation as victim is much greater than their over-representation as offender. If looking for an explanation as to why blacks are viewed as victims of hate crimes more commonly than as perpetrators of hate crimes, it might be the facts on the ground responsible for that impression. A larger proportion of blacks are victims of hate crimes than offenders.

The reverse is also true. A larger proportion of whites are offenders involved in hate crimes than are victims of hate crimes motivated by race or ethnicity.

white offenders about 5000
white victims about 2000

black offenders around 2000
black victims around 3500

If you want to talk proportions it is important to look at both sides. 5 to 2 is a higher offender to victim ratio than is found among blacks.

[iih]

newbury:

'Are you smarter than a 5th grader

I have not watched it on CBC yet 😉

[mwl]

No wonder Krugman idolizes the Foundation series, Asimov's Foundation is the ultimate in liberal government. Never mind that free will foolishness, just sit back and relax, and let the elite who know best make all of the decisions for you. It's for your own good!

I'd rather be one of the barbarians, thanks.

[Hube]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Foundation and Earth and the prequel novels Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation set up the premise that R. Daneel Olivaw was ultimately responsible for Seldon and his psychohistory? (I dug the former book, but the prequels I couldn't make it through -- they were awful.)

In addition, wasn't psychohistory made moot in Foundation and Earth (or was it Foundation's Edge?) when Golan Trevize made the decision for "Galaxia" -- that galaxy-wide communal mind that would serve as a defense against any aliens that eventually came upon the Milky Way? (In the Foundation-verse, humans are the only intelligent species in the galaxy.)

[ChrisO]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Foundation and Earth and the prequel novels Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation set up the premise that R. Daneel Olivaw was ultimately responsible for Seldon and his psychohistory? (I dug the former book, but the prequels I couldn't make it through -- they were awful.)

In addition, wasn't psychohistory made moot in Foundation and Earth (or was it Foundation's Edge?) when Golan Trevize made the decision for "Galaxia"

Yes and yes.

I actually enjoyed "Foundation's Edge" and "Foundation and Earth." Not great literature, to be certain, but readable.

[J sub D]

Yeah, J sub D, post here. Prove that you have been a good sport and haven't cursed.

It's over there now. An infuriating time delay.

[Orion]

Asimov's "Psychohistory" was premised on the idea that when you're dealing with a galactic population in the trillions, the influence of individuals on the population as a whole is basically -nil-. Even the Galactic Emperor was helpless to prevent the dissolution of the Empire.

The Mule was the exception that proved the rule. He was able to modify the behavior of extremely large populations through emotional control. Because he was sterile, however (and Asimov didn't consider the possibility of cloning or genetic engineering when he wrote the series) his influence was limited to his lifetime.

The problem with psychohistory is of course that it assumes a kind of uniformity across the "galactic population" that shouldn't exist. The rules the psychohistorians derived based on their observations of the people of Trantor worked equally well for the people of Terminus and all the other worlds of the Empire. However we know that human groups, when isolated from each other by distance and/or culture, tend to develop unique manners and customs that cannot be fully contained within a single umbrella of predictive mathematics like psychohistory: ie. the exceptions to the rule become the norm, hence no rule system can be all-inclusive.

[herodotus]

"Jan - dunno. But one thing seems certain, herodotus certainly doesn't read it..."

Not without puking he doesn't.

[gankomon]

On the subject of Pakistan and Bangladesh:

Britain (in the person of Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten) did NOT want to separate them, and neither did the Congress Party, as represented by Mahatma Gandhi and his closest lieutenant, the first Indian Governor-General, Jawaharalal Nehru.

However, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, leader of the Indian Muslim Party and the father of Pakistan, insisted and in fact made so much trouble that eventually Mountbatten, who was working under a very tight deadline, made the decision to go ahead and partition, with the grudging agreement of Nehru and his Congress Party. British lawyer Cyril Radcliffe was imported to draw the line, and it admittedly caused a great deal of bloodshed. To this day India and Pakistan are still arguing over Kashmir, which was a primarily Muslim province, though it's ruling family was Hindu. Pakistan's name is in fact an anagram and the 'K' stands for Kashmir.

Just thought you'd like to know. As for Asimov, I found him mostly fairly boring and pretentious. I much prefer Keith Laumer and Jerry Pournelle.