Hugo Go Home
Duncan Currie takes a few whacks at Hugo Chavez's claims of international influence.
Chávez may be a throwback to the old South American caudillos, who blended populism, authoritarianism, and military rule. But even his two supposed protégés, Evo Morales of Bolivia and Rafael Correa of Ecuador, are hardly carbon copies. In Nicaragua, Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega regained power with less than 40 percent of the vote, thanks to election rules that make it possible for a candidate to win the presidency with just 35 percent. But a majority of Nicaraguans voted for one of the two center-right candidates. Thus far, Ortega has accepted the Central American Free Trade Agreement.
Talk of a populist surge in the region contains some truth. But Bolivia, Ecuador, and Nicaragua are three of Latin America's weakest, poorest countries, never fully integrated into the global economy. As Christopher Sabatini, senior policy director at the Americas Society and editor in chief of Americas Quarterly, points out, the elections of Morales and Correa were based less on ideology than on practical grievances. And Ortega's victory was certainly "not a triumph of leftism," but rather "a triumph of electoral manipulation."
My first reason web column was about Chavez and how his chest-pounding elevated a left-wing candidate into the second round of Peru's presidential election… and how it backfired and kept that candidate from defeating basically discredited ex-president Alan Garcia in a run-off. (Garcia was the failed predecessor of Alberto Fujimori. Imagine if in 1988 the GOP nominated Richard Nixon and you get an idea of how weird this comeback was.) More recently Michael C. Moynihan criticized Chavez's Western enablers… but I remain more interested in the impression that Chavez is a gathering threat to American national security. He's got an inflated sense of his own popularity and reach.
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Hillary Clinton in a pant suit
Har har.
Actually, wouldn't it be "Hillary Clinton in a suit."?
A legend in his own mind.
I wish his name was Juego. That would be more amusing to me.
Incidentally, I don't fear him, either. Just like I don't fear the Middle East. At least, "I" don't when collectively lumped in with the rest of the United States. My personal status as a military and economic power is somewhat limited.
Hey, joe, I just bought Shirer's Collapse of the Third Republic at a library discard sale. One dollar! I started reading it as a borrowed item from the same library a while back, but I never finished it. Pretty good stuff. I've always thought the French collapse in WWII was fascinating when contrasted with their amazing tolerance for years of death and destruction in WWI. It had a lot to do with internal politics and ennui. They had the military power to at least slow down the Germans, after all. They just failed to use it.
A buck?!? Lucky bastard!
The French did not have "amazing tolerance of death and destruction in WW1." The army staged a revolt.
And the French did fight, very hard. They just lost, because the Germans had superior tactics. They were beaten fair and square.
Chaves AHHHHHHHHHHH!
They were beaten fair and square.
Fair and square. In a war! Good one, joe.
joe,
Read Shirer's book. I thought he presented a compelling case that France gave up the ghost way too early. They certainly lacked the strong leadership that they had during the earlier war.
As for revolts, well, there were quite a few mutinies of one kind or the other during the war. That was one point the Nazis liked to conveniently forget with all of the "stabbed in the back" rhetoric--the military wasn't much interested in continuing the fight, either.
J sub D,
I don't know WTF you are whining about, and really don't care. My point is clear and correct, and I don't really care if you want to play dumb or not.
Pro Lib,
I've read and reread it. Thanks.
As a political journalist, Shirer takes a very political view of things. Having read other sources, including those that are stronger on the military side of things, I don't find his argument that compelling. The French were whupped. They could have kept fighting, but the outcome was a foregone conclusion, and the extra death and destruction in their country would have accomplished nothing.
Admit it, joe, you're a Vichy guy. Collaborator!
I agree that France would've lost, anyway, but they could've made a war out of it and maybe held out long enough to have reached a negotiated peace without Paris falling. It was the rapid collapse that kept Britain's help from being worth anything.
Of course, failing to act while Germany was tied up with Poland was the real mistake.
J sub D,
I don't know WTF you are whining about, and really don't care. My point is clear and correct, and I don't really care if you want to play dumb or not.
joe, The Germans invaded neutral countries and introduced chemical warfare. Fairly and Squarely.
J sub D,
No chemical warfare in WWII. As for neutral countries, Germany always invades those on the way to Paris. It can't help itself.
My bad. I thought we were talking WW I. WWII the Germans behaved completely honorably. Nope, no war crimes here folks, move along.
The rapid collapse was in response to a rapid military debacle. The blitzkreig rolled the Germans through France at an unheard of rate.
If you want an example of a rapid collapse, check out the section on Belgium and King Leopold. He have up when the allies still had a strong defensive posture.
J sub D,
You seriously read my statement, And the French did fight, very hard. They just lost, because the Germans had superior tactics. They were beaten fair and square., in response to a statement about the French surrenduring before they were defeated militarily, as a comment on the morality and decency of the Nazi military machine?
Seriously?
Wow.
Yep, you did.
Stunning.
From what I remember, Ollanta Humala lost mostly because he practically insulted half his country. He said the people from the coast were lazy and stupid, or something like that. Imagine what would happen if a candidate said that people from the west coast had turds for brains, and that's what happened to Ollanta. While Chavez is not as popular as he would like to believe, I don't think his involvement with Ollanta hurt Ollanta as much as you think. Ollanta screwed up his own campaign by himself.
joe, let me try to get this across, since I was obviously being obtuse. There is no fair/unfair in war. That's pretty much what my original post was about. War crimes convictions are for the losers. War winners never cheat. That's all.
Not all of his carbon copies are even winning elections. His buddy Obrador in Mexico was defeated by Calderon (albiet barely). Calderon is basically like a Mexican version of a moderate Republican. Humala in Peru couldn't even win against a crook like Gracia. So much for the "Bolivarian Revolution".
And I still don't get why Chavez uses the name of a 19th-century classical liberal for his movement.
Oh c'mon you two. "Fair and square" is ironic wording to use for war, no doubt, I noted that too. But obviously joe doesn't think the Nazis were being "fair" to invade France!!!
Oh, I don't know about that. We've already established beyond a reasonable doubt upthread that joe is and was pro-Vichy.
He booed, you know, when Captain Renault said, "Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects."
Oh c'mon you two. "Fair and square" is ironic wording to use for war, no doubt, I noted that too. But obviously joe doesn't think the Nazis were being "fair" to invade France!!!
Okay, okay already. Hatchet is buried, sword is sheathed and the peace pipe is gettin' fired up! Peace, Love, Bobby Sherman!
Pro Libertate,
"OBJECTIVELY Pro-Vichy," thank you very much!
I keed, I keed.
What's this about a peace pipe?
These are best tortilla chips in the whole world!
Ha! Hugo Chavez can't even influence the direction of this thread!
While I do agree with you joe that when Germany invaded that France did put up a fight and even got beat there, it was the ennui and self-defeat at the national/political level which truly KO'd France:
-Charles de Gaulle was a freaking millitary genius and he never got the time of day
-The Maginot Line was a millitary disaster waiting to happen (the Germans can't cross the Ardennes, it's imposible'!)
-They should've attacked Germany ASAP once Germany invaded Poland...Germany would never have been able to withstand a war on two fronts that early in the war but Hitler could rely on the supine nature of the French political and military establishment...
-They should've attacked Germany ASAP once Germany invaded Poland...Germany would never have been able to withstand a war on two fronts that early in the war but Hitler could rely on the supine nature of the French political and military establishment...
The fall of Poland happened in October 1939. Its wise not to start an offensive right before winter!
Agh!
Forgetting everything today:
Meant to say that the strategic level, consisting of the top military brass and the top politicians, was where the ennui and self-defeat lay...
-They should've attacked Germany ASAP once Germany invaded Poland...Germany would never have been able to withstand a war on two fronts that early in the war but Hitler could rely on the supine nature of the French political and military establishment...
The fall of Poland happened in October 1939. Its wise not to start an offensive right before winter!
And?
That was my point, France should've been prepared for a war with Germany during that time, and should've gotten it's shit together to fight Germany when it did cross over to Poland...
That was my point, France should've been prepared for a war with Germany during that time, and should've gotten it's shit together to fight Germany when it did cross over to Poland...
Oh my fault, I thought you wanted them to invade Germany right after the fall of Poland.
I really can't blame France for not putting up much of a fight though after losing an entire generation to the meat grinder in World War I. I wouldn't want to go through that again, either.
joe, I dont know where you get "fair and square" either.
I mean the way those Germans snuck around through that forest instead of direstly attacking the Maginot Line. That just wasn't sporting at all.
🙂
I'm afraid that with all the "cheese eating surrender monkey" talk it seems to escape some people that the French not only covered the British withdrawal at Dunkirk but then held out for another three weeks against one of the most brutal mechanized onslaughts to date.
The loss seems to be the result of a lot of poor command and strategic decisions* but the average French soldier aquitted himself quite adequately.
*One of the worst of these was the King of Belgium's decision to surrender in spite of the fact that the Army was prepared to keep fighting. He quite rightly lost the throne over it.
Frank_A,
I think it's more accurate to attribute the failures you mention to a hidebound military strategy than to ennui. Failures of intellect, not character.
They DID prepare for the war - they just thought that huddling behind the Manginot Line was a good idea. Charles de Gaulle didn't get the time of day because his superiors couldn't appreciate his strategic and tactical insights, sort of like the American military brass couldn't understand Billy Mitchell's in the 20s.
"Huddling behind the Manginot Line" was poorly phrased.
The French attitude at that time wasn't, "Duck! Hide! They're going to come and get us!"
It was, "We've got the greatest military on the continent! Let them come - we'll break their forces with our impenetrable line, then destroy them!"
Ha! Hugo Chavez can't even influence the direction of this thread!
LOL, joe.
They DID prepare for the war - they just thought that huddling behind the Manginot Line was a good idea.
Military leaders (generals/admirals) usually are prepared to fight the last war.
...while the Manginot Line was based on thinking that had been disproven by the last war.
Since this thread is now about French-loving, the German high command did not expect the French Military to fold the way it did. In fact they believed that the French Army was the "best" in Europe & were apprehensive about engaging them with the materiel at hand after Poland ie they thought Hitler was making a stupid call but had to obey the Fuhrer anyway.
Well, yes, but the German High Command didn't expect the blitzkreig to work so well, and the French to be so thoroughly beaten in the field.
The French actually had more armor and could have used this to their advantage. But they spread their armor thinly throughout the army, instead of using it as a spearhead like the Germans did.
To be fair, our military doctrine on armored warfar was pretty much the same as the French's in 1940.
We just didn't suffer as much for it, because we didn't have a border with Germany.
joe-
We had brilliant strategists in the 20s and 30s, but our military funding was so low then the army actually had to practice with cardboard tanks.
I'd actually love it if our military spending was still that low. That was back when Republicans were anti-war, though. *sighs*
The French had brilliant strategists, too, Cesar. Like De Gaulle.
Ours were just as frustrated and junior than theirs in 1940.
I have to admit (shamefully) that I was unaware of Belgium's role in the fall of western Europe, other than as a stop on the road to Paris. Henceforth I will spit in my Belgian Waffles before I eat them.
Since this has become the Weekday Open Thread, let me tell everyone who hasn't already heard that Nuon Chea, the former Khmer Rouge number two was just captured.
Here's to hoping he dies in great, great pain. It's times like these I wished I believed in God so I could think of him burning in hell for the rest of eternity.
dead_elvis
It's important to note that it was the Belgian king that surrendered. The army was prepared to continue fighting.
A big problem too, though, was that the Belgians did not allow the French and British into the country to take up advance defensive positions. They were afraid that they might provoke the Germans.
This at a time when the Germans were massing a huge military force along their border.
Chavez does indeed have an over-inflated view of his own power and influence. But so have all other failed despots in history - as proven by that word "failed".
Even a predetermined loser can cause an awful lot of damage on his way out. This damage is usually the loser's whole point.
I read about company called SAIC which devours tax dollars at the pig-trough called the Pentagon (plus FBI, CIA, and NSA) while providing the benefit of failed computer projects. They continue to gain new contracts, despite repeated failures and overruns, mostly via influence of a huge number of retired military officials in it's employ, whose #1 job is getting more contracts.
Surprisingly, the in-depth article on SAIC is on Vanity Fair of all places, plus copied on my website with comments.
This view of SAIC is confirmed by someone at BP I met, who has to deal with their incompetence and money-grubbing pressure tactics.
Why mention SAIC?
Well, consider that Venezuela's number one commodity is OIL.
Then consider that SAIC controls (though a subsidiary) Venezuela's oil refineries. Remember the strike by managers -- er, lockout -- of 2002? Venezuela not only punished some of the managers, but accused SAIC of intentional industrial sabotage, for political purposes. Namely, ousting Chavez for instituting mild tax increases.
Not exactly a pro-business free market philosophy, this SAIC.
This occurred a short time before the foiled military coup, led by the Generals and the same corporate crowd, which was caught on video by an Irish (liberal) film crew. I have to grant Chavez the benefit of the doubt, sulfur or no.