Let the Eagles Soar

The ballyhooed "Gathering of Eagles" happened this weekend: a "pro-troops" rally in the morning followed by pro-war "Eagles" fanning out along Pennsylvania Avenue to heckle thousands of anti-war protesters. Here's eight minutes of video from the right side of the march.

It's mostly just yelling and cursing and finger-pointing, but there's a poignant bit about 90 seconds in when an old Korea vet, who's marching against the Iraq War, asks a college Republican what her sign means by "Let the Troops Finish the Mission." She hides behind the sign and calls him a dumbass while a frattier CR yells past them to some anti-war marchers "Move to Canada!" The vet can't get a serious answer and walks away. Also, check out the dude at 3 minutes and 45 seconds in.

Comments

[The Artist Formerly Know as Tr]

Ahhh, first post. This was so worth it.

[prolefeed]

Ahhh, first post. This was so worth it.

Thank you for your constructive, meaningful comment.

[Randolph Carter]

Man that girl talking to the korean war vet is a cowardly bitch.

It's also amusing to hear so many of the anti-anti-war protesters calling the anti-war folks and their words "despicable." Reminds me of Bob Wilson's comments on the idea of "despicable" thought.

[John]

300 million people in this country and like 5000 total showed up to protest or anti-protest the war. Yeah, this is Vietnam all over again. I sympathize with the Eagles, but they need to realize that 5000 dirty hippies on the mall speaks for itself. Jesus, what happened to two hundred thousand on the mall with Nixon holed up in the Whitehouse? This is the best they have? Best to ignore it the ANSWER marches. It just gives the media more of a reason to cover them and act like they mean anything.

[JBinMO]

I don't have speakers for my computer so I haven't seen the video (no point) but it sounds like the anti-war protesters should have just yelled 9/11 9/11 9/11 and all the eagles would have wet themselves the way they do when Bush says it. They would have all had to go home and change.

[The Artist Formerly Know as Tr]

Thank you for your constructive, meaningful comment

The pleasure is all mine, I assure you.

[bromo98]

I saw more interesting signs printed up on this weeks NFL games. No one wins this one - one of the marchers comparing Bush to Hitler, and waaaaaay too many of the Eagles yelling "Looooooser" "...with their finger and their thumb in the shape of an "L" on their forehead." (shoutout to Smash Mouth)

[Dave Weigel]

waaaaaay too many of the Eagles yelling "Looooooser"

Sigh. I wish the real Eagles got to yell "loser" once in a while.

[gaijin]

...waaaaaay too many of the Eagles yelling "Looooooser""...with their finger and their thumb in the shape of an "L" on their forehead."

...and interesting how many of them had it backwards, in the shape of a 'J', instead.

[JW]

Waitaminute. Isn't this *why* people go to protests to begin with? Just to scream at people they don't agree with and toss out dirty words?

I do love 3:45 man. He at least has the true spirit of an eagle.

[Grand Chalupa]

300 million people in this country and like 5000 total showed up to protest or anti-protest the war.

This reminds me of when I was reading about the 2000 presidential primaries and was surprised to learn that candidates had to search long and wide to get a couple hundred people in the room to listen to their candidate.

Nothing could've made me feel more patriotic. In the Middle East or most other uncivillized part of the world, political leaders are treated like gods and the rabble is all too eager to get together and lose themselves in the collective.

Political indifference is a sign of a great civillization.

[Guy Montag]

Sorry for not forwarding my photos to you David. Have not even posted them on my own spot. Nice to see you by the Navy Memorial METRO.

Some of the things that David missed were repeated, scripted, 'arguments' by the ANSWER crowd about how the sub-prime market "implosion" is the end of western civilization.

For some reason, the ANSWER folks could not figure out what there parade permit* covered and kept trying to go around the barricades and annoy the GOE folks. They don't seem to listen very well either (usually because they were talking or shouting) when the cops would point them in the right direction. The ANSWER folks would stare brainlessly at the cops and keep trying to go past the guys with guns, pepper spray and clubs.

Seems about 190 of them were taken by surprise (and handcuffs) on the Capitol steps a bit later in the day.

Oh, the "finish the mission" example was certainly eclipsed when I would give the ANSWER folks a thumbs up and "Thanks for supporting a decisive victory!" for "Bring the troops home" signs. None of them had anything to say to that either. Others were saying the same thing, but that never seems to come out in certain media.

If I remember David's mention of when he got to the GOE area, he probably missed the sloppy "color guard" moves of the 'Iraq Veterans Against the War' (in sarcastic quotes because their members keep being found out as having, er, enhanced their war resumes).

I thought a bit about our crowd estimate discussion. I had no clue but guessed that ANSWER outnumbered GOE by about 4 to 1 or more. The Washington Post had a count of over 6,000 ANSWER marchers and sounds like they used pretty decent method.

In other news: Franklin Foer is out of hiding and promoting his soccer book on MSNBC during the "Morning Joe" show. Maybe he will wrap up the details on his star Iraq Vet, PV1 Scott Thomas Beauchamp?

[John]

"Political indifference is a sign of a great civillization."

I agree. I don't see how it is a bad thing that 99.9999% of America had something better to do this weekend than march around like idiots on the National Mall staging "die-ins".

[Guy Montag]

sorry,

parade permit*

*I am against issuing permits for rights

[TrickyVic]

Being there was no end of the Korean war, merely a ceasefire "Let the troops finish the misson" could be applied to that war too.

[Chris S.]

Oh, the "finish the mission" example was certainly eclipsed when I would give the ANSWER folks a thumbs up and "Thanks for supporting a decisive victory!" for "Bring the troops home" signs. None of them had anything to say to that either.

Why would they have anything to say about a sarcastic snark? Would you have had anything substantive to say to something equally sarcastic and silly, like "thanks for supporting death and destruction"?

[TrickyVic]

John, who's the bigger idiot. The idiot that protests the war, or the idiot that feels it's important to counter an idiot protesting a war.

[Terrorific]

Ugh. Pathetic on both sides.

I've always thought these things would be much more productive if the marchers would march stone-faced and silent. The image of them being heckled would certainly stand out, and perhaps make the sane among us willing to join them next time.

Otherwise, who wants to join a parade of loudmouthed morons, no matter which side they're on?

I suggest wearing suits as well. If you out-dress and out-class the pro-war side they look like fools.

I was in Amsterdam on the first day of the war, and there was a huge parade that marched through town, with protesters holding signs that had complete nonsense on them. When I see "Bush needs a blowjob" it doesn't work to change my mind, besides reminding me that it is in fact I that needs the blowjob.

[rob]

Proof that both sides have bone-heads, particularly bone-headed college students:

"an old Korea vet, who's marching against the Iraq War, asks a college Republican what her sign means by "Let the Troops Finish the Mission." She hides behind the sign and calls him a dumbass while a frattier CR yells past them to some anti-war marchers "Move to Canada!" The vet can't get a serious answer and walks away."

(Bone-headed college students is, of course, simple double-tap of the obvious.)

[Lamar]

"Let the Troops Finish the Mission."

According to our President and Commander-In-Chief, the mission was completed on May 1, 2003. How dare you question the president during a time of war!

[WalterBoswell]

Pointless exhibitionism from both sides and considering the emotional detachment left by most Americans towards this war a little bit of collective masturbation too boot. Still the cops seemed to have a good day out.

A far more entertaining method of protest might be to arm both sides with meat hooks and have them go at it somewhere in Arizona.

[joe]

Yeah, that Korean War vet trying to engage his opponent in a serious conversation sure does make his side look like a bunch of boneheads.

[KoWT]

the meat hook thing would be a massacre. The antiwar protesters had a 10 to 1 headcount advantage.

[Number 6]

To the "let's stay" folks, I would have handed out stacks of recruiters' business cards.

[James]

Libertarians don't support war, war is the health of the state. State baaadddd freedom gooodddd

[Guy Montag]

Lamar,

According to our President and Commander-In-Chief, the mission was completed on May 1, 2003. How dare you question the president during a time of war!

Haven't several people here gone over this with you right here before? Or was that one of your twins who posts here?

The overall mission did not end in Iraq at the end of major combat operations any more than it ended in Germany at the surrender of the German military to the Allies.

[Davebo]

To the "let's stay" folks, I would have handed out stacks of recruiters' business cards.

That's because you don't realize they are doing their part by protesting the protesters.

If we allow Korean War Veterans to ask logical questions the terrorists will have won.

And beer is gooood!

[James]

What is absurd and monstrous about war is that men who have no personal quarrel should be trained to murder one another in cold blood.

~Aldous Huxley

All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.

~Alexis de Tocqueville

...Violence as a way of gaining power...is being camouflaged under the guise of tradition, national honor [and] national security...

~Alfred Adler

War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
Smedley Butler

My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military.
Smedley Butler

[WalterBoswell]

- That's because you don't realize they are doing their part by protesting the protesters.

Freedumb medals for the anti anti's now!!!!

[Guy Montag]

Number 6,

To the "let's stay" folks, I would have handed out stacks of recruiters' business cards.

"We" usually find that funny and pull out our military ID cards (retired/reserve/active) and as why we should repete that step.

Frequently that is followed by more protestor nonsense like "why aren't you over there now?"

Don't you people know that human shields can self-deploy but we are not allowed to? Silly surrender monkeys, sheesh!

[joe]

I love the fact that the hawks continue to use the same "surrender monkey" language they used to manipulate the country into supporting this idiotic war and re-electing Bush, even as the 70% majority rolls their eyes at it.

It's just going to make it that much easier to see through the next time they want to start a war and can't make the case honestly.

Which can only be a good thing.

[dhex]

i was wondering when mont-blog was going to show up.

ok so if the answer folk et al are fairly lame, then their less saavy cousins* are what, ultra-lame? hey hey ho ho we support the status quo?

*(they would probably call them "imperialist stooges" or something dramatic like that, but i prefer cousins.)

[Warty]

At some point, after one has heckled enough old veterans and called them cowards, does one begin to feel a bit silly? Or does such a person lack the necessary capacity for self-analysis to begin with?

[TrickyVic]

Joe, perhaps you didn't get the White House memo back in 2001 that said engaging an opponent in a serious conversation is for boneheads.

Guy, nothing wrong with Lamar trying to hold the President at his word is it?

[Davebo]

"We" usually find that funny and pull out our military ID cards (retired/reserve/active) and as why we should repete that step.

Interesting. I wonder how many college republicans you manage to squeeze into your pockets.

[Lamar]

"The overall mission did not end in Iraq at the end of major combat operations any more than it ended in Germany at the surrender of the German military to the Allies."

Is this how we're going about redefining the mission these days? How many levels of "overall missions" are there? I need to know, because there have been so many missions accomplished, corners turned and successes achieved that I'm starting to thing those words don't have any meaning anymore. Of course, I would never accuse you of creating another "overall" layer of mission just to wrap all the other mission definitions into a higher, more abstract mission statement.

Oh, somebody already straightened out my views on this because, you know, a declared war with enemies in uniform and established goals is so comparable to an undefined, amorphous, catch-all concept of war. Well done. I should know better than to NOT see the obvious WWII-GWOT nexus.

[Randolph Carter]

I think the real question is - how many enlisted college republicans can dance on the head of a pin?

[James]

Lew Rockwell on wars libertarians can support. I wonder how many wars have ever fit the requirements.

Question: What about anti-war? Are there no wars libertarians can support?

Answer: We can support any defense of person and property. But war as we understand the term in modern times is a government program like any other, meaning that it over-utilizes resources, causes destruction of property and life, and fails to achieve its stated aims. On the last point, war often leads to the opposite of its stated aims. Iraq is a good example. But it is important for us to realize that in this respect, it is like any other government program. Western history had this idea of "just war" that was supposed to prevent war from starting and prevent them from becoming total. But who is left to decide what is just and what is not? The finally authority here is the state. Of course it sees itself as just. That's why we need not just rules but institutional change

[TrickyVic]

"""It's just going to make it that much easier to see through the next time they want to start a war and can't make the case honestly."""

Some people always fall for it. We'll see if you're right in the run-up to attack Iran. Sad to say, my money is against you. I wish that wasn't the case.

I wonder how many of those Republican college students plan to enlist after school. It's always easier to support the war when you don't have to fight it.

[mk]

Sigh. I wish the real Eagles got to yell "loser" once in a while.

The Screaming Eagles get to chant "loser" all the time, but they usually don't. They instead "Ole Ole" (much to the chagrin of the Lonewacko types)

[Cesar]

ANSWER marches are such a massive joke. I'm anti-war and I can't stand that Communist front organization.

Fuck Mumia, fuck the Cuban Five, fuck Leonard Peltier, and fuck whatever else is their cause of the week that detracts from whatever anti-war work they do.

[Guy Montag]

Remember, in Soviet Russia the government protests you!

[TrickyVic]

I'd bet Cindy Shehan supported her son in Iraq until her son died. It's easy to wave a flag, it's more difficult to sacrifice. Many people, including Republicans, resist the notion of coughing up a few extra bucks to cover the cost. An extra $200 bucks a year is too much of a scrafice by many who claim to support it.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"ANSWER marches are such a massive joke. I'm anti-war and I can't stand that Communist front organization.

Fuck Mumia, fuck the Cuban Five, fuck Leonard Peltier, and fuck whatever else is their cause of the week that detracts from whatever anti-war work they do."

Amen Cesar, the anti-war movement needs those guys like a hole in the head...

[mk]

BTW, for those who have never been to a march at the mall in DC. The numbers of protesters and counter protesters they are talking about here are so minimal that the average tourist probably visited several museums that day without even realizing that a march was taking place.

[Benny Frank]

For my own part, I wish the bald eagle had not been chosen as the representative of our country; he is a bird of bad moral character; he does not get his living honestly; you may have seen him perched on some dead tree, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the labor of the fishing-hawk; and, when that diligent bird has at length taken a fish, and is bearing it to his nest for the support of his mate and young ones, the bald eagle pursues him, and takes it from him. With all this injustice he is never in good case; but, like those among men who live by sharping and robbing, he is generally poor, and often very lousy. Besides, he is a rank coward; the little kingbird, not bigger than a sparrow, attacks him boldly and drives him out of the district. He is therefore by no means a proper emblem for the brave and honest Cincinnati of America, who have driven all the kingbirds from our country...

[Franklin Harris]

I attended a College Republicans national convention once. It took place the weekend Bill Clinton fired some missiles at Iraq because Saddam allegedly had been involved in an assassination attempt on Bush the Elder. The CRs were so deliriously happy you'd think they'd just had a month-long orgasm.

Oh, and CRs can't hold their liquor.

[Nat]

I'm anti-war and I can't stand that Communist front organization. Fuck Mumia, fuck the Cuban Five, fuck Leonard Peltier, and fuck whatever else is their cause of the week that detracts from whatever anti-war work they do.

I agree - it's the moral equivalent of joining forces with "Nazis Against Climate Change" to lobby for environmental regulations. But the left screams "McCarthyism!" whenever you try to point this out. Those assholes would cheerfully throw me into a re-education camp or put me to work as a slave laborer in the Central Valley if they had the chance, and I find it hard to overlook this just for the sake of their anti-Iraq War stance.

One of the best articles Salon magazine ever published was about the hijacking of the antiwar movement by unreconstructed Stalinists - the (left-wing!) author's reply to the inevitable charge of McCarthyism was "opposition to mass murder should be a pre-requisite for leading an antiwar movement."

Oh, and Guy, if you did indeed serve, I respect that, but there are still far too many rabid war supporters of prime fighting age that don't have an excuse - and the College Republicans are some of the worst.

[joe]

Fuck Mumia, fuck the Cuban Five, fuck Leonard Peltier, and fuck whatever else is their cause of the week that detracts from whatever anti-war work they do.

What Cesar said. Every decent liberal cause, these commie a-holes hijack.

The first march is about immigrants' rights. The second march is about immigrants' rights, women's rights, veganism, the War in Iraq, CAFTA, union rights, gay rights, and Wal Mart.

The third march is about smashing capitalism.

Screw those people.

[JW]

ANSWER marches are such a massive joke. I'm anti-war and I can't stand that Communist front organization.

Exactly. I've asked several people who wear their anti-war protest creds proudly if they would march in a rally for a cause they supported if it were sponsored by the Klan or Aryan Nation.

They just stare and blink. And then go back to protestin'.

[Guy Montag]

Nat,

Oh, and Guy, if you did indeed serve, I respect that, but there are still far too many rabid war supporters of prime fighting age that don't have an excuse - and the College Republicans are some of the worst.

Well, yes I have been serving since Feb. 1979 actually.

Now, what is your problem with people supporting an action politically without having worked for the government? Does it make me some sort of hypoctite because I support legalization of all sorts of chemicals that I have never used nor do I intend to?

[highnumber]

The difference, Guy, is that pro war people are asking others to hold guns and shoot or be shot. What part of WAR do you not understand?

[wingnutx]

"We" usually find that funny and pull out our military ID cards (retired/reserve/active) and as why we should repete that step.

Frequently that is followed by more protestor nonsense like "why aren't you over there now?"

I've gotten that on several occasions.

[Guy Montag]

The difference, Guy, is that pro war people are asking others to hold guns and shoot or be shot. What part of WAR do you not understand?

I happen to understand it just fine, thank you.

So, are you trying to call my son some sort of a hypocrite just because he does not start ROTC until next year? Of course, he could have enlisted when he was 17 like I did, but most people don't. Am I some sort of hypocrite for not "sending him to war?" (I always chuckle at that stupidness)

Now, that example was just for context. I am certainly not bright enough to explain to you the concept of choice in a free society. In case you did not know, we have an all volunteer military. It has been that way since the Nixon administration, even despite the efforts of President Carter and Representative Rangel. We have a highly trained and well equipped military for a reason and it should be used when appropriate.

If you will not allow free people to advocate using an enumerated power of the federal government, even if they never worked in the branch of government assigned to exercise that power, then I can not see how any discussion with you can go beyond silly bumpersticker comments.

There is nothing any more "wrong" with their advocating military action against a regime that was shooting at us and the British for over 10 years than there is for advocating the police arrest OJ for breaking into a hotel room when the advocate was never a cop.

This notion that one can not make any comment on any war unless they are a veteran is pretty juvenile. Actually, it is hilarious coming from people who never served anywhere.

Perhaps we need to just shut up about the various Socialist Farm Bills if we never worked for the Department of Agriculture? Be silent about drug bills if we never worked for the FDA? Muzzle anybody who advocates gun ownership for self defense if they never owned a gun, or by your 'logic', have never been a cop?

Freedom is not free. Hope that did not confuse you.

[Paul]

Political indifference is a sign of a great civillization.

Grand Chalupa wins the thread.

[Paul]

The first march is about immigrants' rights. The second march is about immigrants' rights, women's rights, veganism, the War in Iraq, CAFTA, union rights, gay rights, and Wal Mart.

The third march is about smashing capitalism.

Oh, and joe comes in second. Excellent summary, joe.

[John]

"What Cesar said. Every decent liberal cause, these commie a-holes hijack.

The first march is about immigrants' rights. The second march is about immigrants' rights, women's rights, veganism, the War in Iraq, CAFTA, union rights, gay rights, and Wal Mart.

The third march is about smashing capitalism.

Screw those people."

Good for you Joe for not defending the indefensable.

[Lamar]

Am I allowed to comment if I signed up for the Army Reserves but was rejected due to health reasons? Does one have to actually serve and gain military experience, or is this a balls contest and all that matters is that you pledged to serve your country?

[Nigel Watt]

Screaming Eagle? That cowardly bitch could use a screaming seagull.

[dhex]

Freedom is not free. Hope that did not confuse you.

of course not. i've got my buck oh five right here...

[Guy Montag]

Lamar,

Am I allowed to comment if I signed up for the Army Reserves but was rejected due to health reasons? Does one have to actually serve and gain military experience, or is this a balls contest and all that matters is that you pledged to serve your country?

Yea, I don't get these folks who say nobody can comment unless they served. The 'Iraqi Vets Against the War' keep getting held up as human shields in an attempt to silence disagreement with the ANSWER crowd.

I am especially irritated with my fellow service members who say people who did not serve can't comment.

The real point should be is what are these people saying, not if they should have the right to say it.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"But the left screams "McCarthyism!" whenever you try to point this out."
I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty far to the left of most posters here and I readily agreed with Cesar, and our resident liberal joe did right away. I think most liberals realize that ANSWER is a bunch of radical nuts, even if they don't grasp the real irony in Stalinist peace protestors (most Americans have no clue as to who Joseph Stalin was). I also think this kind of thing demonstrates the silliness of folks who call everyone to the left of Lew Rockwell "communists." It's that kind of thing we liberal leaning folks call "McCarthyism." If you think Barney Frank and Hillary Clinton are "communists" then you simply have not met anyone from ANSWER or similar groups. They are out there.

[Guy Montag]

I don't have speakers for my computer so I haven't seen the video (no point) but it sounds like the anti-war protesters should have just yelled 9/11 9/11 9/11 and all the eagles would have wet themselves the way they do when Bush says it. They would have all had to go home and change.

Actually, quite a few of them had signs and were yelling "9/11 was an inside job". Seemed like most people there had seen and heard them often enough that laughter did not result in bladder evacuation on the street.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

A related peeve of mine is when third party types tend to cast moral equivalence on both parties. Many here will say "the Dems and the GOP are equally at fault for this war." That's ludicrous. It would have been nice for more Dems to have voted against AUMF, but way more of them did than the GOP. And it would be nice if they would cut the funding, but their nonbinding resolutions and ammendments to appropriations bills mandating withdrawal are better than the "stay the course" bs that 90% of GOP elected officials vote for repeatedly.

Don't get me wrong, this cuts both ways. I hear folks say "the Dems and the GOP are both for expansion of government programs." If one doesn't count the military (where the GOP spends like drunken sailors) the GOP really does support less costly government programs than the Dems. It would be nice for libertarians if the GOP stood up for even less government, but seeing equivalence between the two is just empirically false. That kind of thing strikes me more as the ideological purist (some would say fanatic) way of seeing all who disagree with him being exactly equally evil and stupid.

[joe]

The chickenhawk argument only really works if used against people who claim that their side of the argument consists of tougher, braver, more manly partisans (insert cheap knock-off of Jack Nicholson speech here), but don't actually do a single thing requiring toughness, bravery, or manliness.

You know, like every single person on the payroll at National Review or the Weakly Standard.

[Paul]

If you think Barney Frank and Hillary Clinton are "communists" then you simply have not met anyone

Barney Frank definitely isn't a communist. Hillary, however, is a fascist. Just sayin'.

[JBinMO]

The GOP is for small government? Medicare part D ring any bells?

[JBinMO]

Or the patriot act?

[Just for Dave]

The Skinz will destroy the real Eagles tonight

[James]

War is a Racket.

Major General Smedley Butler:

"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger men' (to point out enemies), its 'muscle men' (to destroy enemies), its 'brain men' (to plan war preparations), and a "Big Boss" (super-nationalistic capitalism).

It may seem odd for a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups.

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927, I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested....

I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket.... I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents....

Our exploits against the American Indian, the Filipinos, the Mexicans, and against Spain are on a par with the campaigns of Genghis Khan, the Japanese in Manchuria and the African attack of Mussolini. No country has ever declared war on us before we first obliged them with that gesture. Our whole history shows we have never fought a defensive war."

[SeeingI]

One - I notice a lot of able-bodied college-age kids there shouting that the war should continue. Might not a recruitment station be in order?

Two - The counter is "time remaining" not "time elapsed" so pointing out that interesting things happen 90 seconds in is asking for more math than I can muster at 4:50pm on a Monday.

[TrickyVic]

When has the GOP ever been small government? When they are whining about Democrats spending?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I should not have said the GOP wants smaller government, since you guys are correct that they do not mind expanding government interference through law enforcement (and often of private morals). I mean that while the Republicans spend money a lot on domestic social programs they spend less than the Democrats would. Yes, Medicare D was something else, but surely Dem's addressing that problem would have spent more on it.
Note that this does not mean the GOP is better on "fiscal conservatism" (i.e. paying your bills) since whatever the levels of government they are averse to the taxes needed to fund it. Republicans of course also spend more money on defense (or war) spending in general. But if you add up Hillary Clinton or Edwards social program wish list and compare it to Romney's or Guliani I think the costs for the former would be higher for every one of them...

[highnumber]

Guy,
I'm just explaining to you the difference between calling for drug legalization and state organized killing on a massive scale. You professed that you did not see a difference.
To some people, the idea of volunteering others to die for a war of aggression is quite distasteful.

[Grand Chalupa]

Just pointing out to you guys making the "chickenhawk" argument that if the only people who got a say were people who served in the millitary we'd be in Iraq forever.

[highnumber]

By the way, I don't care if you have served, are serving, or are on your way to the enlistment office, I always will find calls for war distasteful. If you believe in the application of force other than in actual defense, you are subhuman in my estimation.

[Guy Montag]

To some people, the idea of volunteering others to die for a war of aggression is quite distasteful.

Tell that to the Honerable Representative Rangel, President James Earl Carter III and anybody else who had the political position to attempt a draft since President Richard M. Nixon nixed the draft, with a well drafted request to the Congress.

Seems we are having another communications problem here. Others can not volunteer you, that is something you must do. Perhaps you are thinking of 'volunteering' your frat buddies to be pushed into traffic? Sorry, that is not within the definition of volunteering, no matter how you wish to misuse the word.

[highnumber]

Yeah, communication problem. You like war. I think that's inhuman. You talk about politics.
You are scary good at ignoring what people actually say. Definitely a communication problem.

[highnumber]

And, Guy, whatever you do, please, please, don't think about what happens during war. Don't think about the families torn apart. Don't think about the parents who lose their children. Don't think about the children who lose their parents. Don't think about the people who lose their homes. Don't think about the people who are left with nothing. Tell yourself this is all for their benefit. Tell yourself that those kids are better off now. Tell those parents that the world is so much better off for the loss of their children. They may not see it that way now, or ever, but tell yourself that it's true, Guy. Don't lose any sleep at night over their lives, Guy. Please don't.

[rob]

joe - Nice try, but I wasn't talking about the anti-war Korean war vet as immature, just the guys who couldn't answer him. Kinda like the other side has its litany of dumb-college age types who confuse being anti-war with being vegan.

[rob]

Y'know, as opposed to the tendency on the right to think that there are only bone-heads on the anti-war movement because you can't wing a ruler without hitting a fringe group that's actually there to promote legalizing hemp, immigration reform, Marxism or whatever...

[TrickyVic]

"""since President Richard M. Nixon nixed the draft, """

If you have to sign-up with the Selective Services, the draft isn't nixed. It's just in suspended animation.

[Gary]

you should know, thirty or so years of killing to defend unethical MULTINATIONAL CORPORATE CAPITALISM turned twice Cong. Medal of Honor awarded Marine General Smedley Butler into a socialist or communist.

There IS a difference, even if some of the hippies don't make that distinction.

If you want a source for the word "unethical" with regards to capitalism, check the 1936 US Senate Nye Report (known as the "Merchants of Death" report. Yes, it included arming Hitler and Japan, but also instigating other wars for profit, and making America look like an immoral sewer of greed.

That the US Senate CARED to expose this is astonishing. All the big names are there, and right under them was the Bush and Walker families.

As for:
Mumia, Cuban Five, Leonard Peltier

Bad PR to put them at a war rally, but from what I've read on these cases:

The Cuban Five was an anti-terrorist group, imprisoned by Bush on behalf of pro-terrorist Cuban-Americans.

Mumia tried to expose police corruption and, from all detailed descriptions, was totally framed years later. From all appearances, he did NOT shoot that cop, and the court was so Kangaroo it was ridiculous. Either that, or the police and courts are always honest and never do any political punishment on unpopular figures.

Leonard Peltier, about ditto, again, from what I've read.

A lot of post Cold War Christian hysteria and a get tough attitude with dissidents.

As for ANSWER, I have to ask myself if it is an INTENTIONAL Op designed to discredit antiwar activism. After all, the leader is a former Attorney General under Lyndon Johnson, with an anti-comm father in politics before him.

I can understand a change of heart, perhaps, but is it really credible that he went from persecuting antiwar activists during Vietnam, all the way to running a Communist front? I have a hard time swallowing that.

Also, in fairness, many of the protesters probably feel the same about the fringe-y-ness of ANSWER, but they seem somehow to have all the MONEY and resources to organize these things. Again ... WTF????