The Weekend Political Thread
I'm trying something new: An omnibus political thread with some analysis of the week's horse race news. Ninety-nine percent of the important stuff is (still!) contained in the Evans-Novak report, but hey, this is an open thread.
Democrats On The March: The Democrats were pummelled on the national stage all week, and yet they end Friday in position to expand their majority in the Senate. (Note that I just said "Senate." More on that later.) On Monday Sen. Chuck Hagel up and quit, making former Sen. Bob Kerrey—a pro-war Democrat, the anti-Hagel—the frontrunner to replace him. On Thursday former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner entered that state's open Senate race with polls giving him massive, groaning leads over well-known Republican candidates. And today former New Hampshire Gov. Jeanne Shaheen entered the race against Sen. John Sununu. He beat her narrowly in 2002; she leads him by 22 points now.
I wrote in late 2005 that the GOP's failure to recruit good candidates in most of that year's most promising Senate races, especially North Dakota and West Virginia, indicated a fatigue and a pessimism beyond what showed up in public polls. We're seeing the same thing now, although Republicans (*cough* Newt Gingrich *cough*) are far more open about their pessimism. Robert Novak reports that the GOP is prepping for a five-seat Senate loss: Colorado, Virginia, and New Hampshire look gone, Oregon, Maine, and Minnesota look dicey, Nebraska could fall if Kerrey jumps in. How many bright spots do Republicans have? One: Louisiana. And that's only because tens of thousands of black Democrats have left the state. New Jersey's octogenarian Sen. Frank Lautenberg would be a prime target for a confident party, but after debacles in 2005 and 2006 the GOP's only been able to recruit a state legislator from the Assembly. And he's on the fence.
Democrats In Retreat: The picture for the House of Representatives? Less clear. Massachusetts' Lowell-centered Fifth District is holding a special election that should be a sure thing for Democrat Niki Tsongas, the wife of the late senator Paul Tsongas. Yet the first poll in the race shows Republican Jim Ogonowski, the brother of one of the pilots killed on 9/11, only ten points behind her.
Smart lefty blogger Matt Stoller calls shenanigans: Ogonowski isn't even running as a Republican, but as a non-politician who muddies his stance on the Iraq War (stay there forever) and bemoans partisanship. But compare the Ogonowski ad to the chintzy ad Tsongas ran in the primary. Every local Democrat has endorsed Tsongas, but all the energy is with the desparate Republicans (who hold no federal or statewide office).
An Ogonowksi victory isn't likely, but it's not impossible, and it would dramatically change the political debate. A proud pro-war Republican will have won by attacking both Bush and the congressional Democrats. Independents will have swung back to the GOP. The Democratic aura of inevitability would be battered, maybe enough to perk up Republican fundraising and keep one or two from retiring. No Republican has flipped a Democratic seat in a special election since Virginia's Michael Randy Forbes in 2001, and no Republican has flipped a seat in New England since Rob Simmons won Connecticut's second district (New London, Norwich) in 2000.
McCain's Overrated Surge: A good indicator of John McCain's new momentum, his first taste of the stuff since before summer began, was Newt Gingrich's interview with National Journal's Linda Douglass. Gingrich had been writing McCain off for months, rattling off a list of possible Republican nominees and conspicuously leaving off the Arizonan. But he told Douglass "I think there are three or four possible Republican nominees—Giuliani, Romney, Thompson, Huckabee, and, based on his recent re-energizing, McCain."
How much has McCain re-energized, and why? Second answer first: He came out swinging at the last debate and planted one on Mitt Romney's glass jaw. And a slight uptick in optimism about Iraq—which was bottoming out at around 20 percent—validated what McCain had been saying about the war since, oh, April 2003. (The stuff about how we needed more troops, not the stuff about how we were on our way to victory.) But how much? Before the debate he had slipped to high single digits and fourth place nationally, behind Mitt Romney. Now he's at 15 percent and a solid third place.
But this isn't a national primary and it didn't start a few weeks ago. It started in January when McCain was polling at double his current numbers and was signing up every smart Republican strategist and donor who wasn't already with Mitt Romney. He's shed a lot of those strategists and he shed three more low-level ones this week. And his small recovery in national polls is meaningless as long as he's not recovering in early primary states. Right now he's not leading in any of them. He's not in second place in any of them. He's 8 points behind Rudy/Thompson in South Carolina, 17 points behind Romney in New Hampshire, and 24 points behind Romney in Iowa, where he's in 5th place overall.
Some more assorted links:
- Dana Goldstein reports from that Newt Gingrich speech I went to and hones in on his worrying about Iran.
- Ryan Sager rides Fred Thompson's bus through Florida, into a 60,000-person retirement community and Disney's Celebration village, and encounters a man who won't support Rudy because "his voice is too thin… It doesn't have that deep, 'I'm sincere' feeling."
- Jonah Goldberg watches Hillary Clinton triangulating on Iraq, which looks about as comfortable as enduring the Crucio curse.
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encounters a man who won't support Rudy because "his voice is too thin... It doesn't have that deep, 'I'm sincere' feeling."
disenfranchise this man, please.
DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Sorry, that was premajure. Just like everyone of his climaxes! *ZING!*
DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Fuck Eric Dondero.
That pre-emptively said, if the GOP's only possible bright spot is one seat in Massachusetts, we're heading for Hilllarycare.
Nigel Watt, don't sugercoat it, tell us what you really think.
Richardson said something very smart and sadly funny today (via MSNBC):
"The President has been allowed to spy on Americans without a warrant, and our U.S. Senate is letting it continue. You know something is wrong when the New England Patriots face stiffer penalties for spying on innocent Americans than Dick Cheney and George Bush."
You know something is wrong when the New England Patriots face stiffer penalties for spying on innocent Americans than Dick Cheney and George Bush."
Good line, still he hasn't a prayer.
J sub D: Yep. No chance whatsoever.
But what about Ron Paul? He doesn't seem to come up when the political discssion gets serious. Is he just a sop to the nutjob wing?
But what about Ron Paul? He doesn't seem to come up when the political discssion gets serious. Is he just a sop to the nutjob wing?
He's not going to win, I'm pretty sure he knows that. But I have hopes he'll affect the debate. That'd be cool.
Edward:
I think FOX pre-planned trap during the debate was intentionally meant to cast him as a nutjob. While every single bit of his arguments would make perfect sense, but between the 2 minutes time limit, Rudy's rude laughs, Huckabee's emotional use of the magic words "victory" and "honor", RP was left with practically no time to sound logical. Only his followers understood exactly what he as saying, but to the other republicans, he probably came across as a nutjob -- sadly. Hopefully he'll have a comeback.
How about if he runs as an independent? That could seriously hurt the republicans if he does so. Sort of like Nader in 2000 with the Dems.
*hem-hem*
That's the cruciatus curse?
He's not going to win, I'm pretty sure he knows that. But I have hopes he'll affect the debate. That'd be cool.
I am afraid that he will be silenced by FOX and right wing talk shows. He's already been cast as the object of laughter. I believe that he'll have the greatest media impact (and the associated spreading of his ideas) if he runs on LP's ticket, independent, etc, and possibly cause the GOP the WH.
iih
There are many of us who remember Ron Paul's run on the LP ticket in 1988. The media ignored him then.
They'd do the same this time.
Isaac:
May be. But not if his impact on the race becomes significantly noted after the elections. Similar to Nader in 2000. It is also my understanding that RP has a decent following within republicans and will cause independents who don't like the alternative (i.e., a Dem) would feel comfortable voting for RP.
Good job of outing yourself with the link Weigel.(in case anyone here doesn't already know)
One: Louisiana. And that's only because tens of thousands of black Democrats have left the state.
links to this.......
Yet liberals almost certainly will speak from a different set of talking points. They'll say that Republicans prevailed because Katrina chased away black residents - i.e., the hurricane literally whitewashed the state.
Louisiana is about to dump the Dems for Katrina incompetence as well as disgust for the LA political traditions of corruption and cronyism.
Bobby Jindal may actually turn that State around in a big way before going on to become our first "minority" President in 2016.
SIV-
And Mississippi and Alabama do so much better under Republican leadership. The Gulf Coast is a shithole because, well, its the Gulf Coast. Poorest, worst run states in America are Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.
David forgot to mention one Dem senate seat that is VERY vulnerable: Tim Johnson's seat from South Dakota.
The GOP is trying not to talk about it too much, because they could come off looking like scumbags. (Johnson suffered a minor stroke shortly after the '06 Dem landslide, and his health puts his ability to run again in serious doubt.)
Kudos to you for tryign to explain things to Edward. Unfortunately you are probably wasting your time.
Edward shows up from time to time, insults Ron Paul, rants incoherently about people who support him being "nutjobs", then when he has his ass handed to him rhetorically, stomps off in a huff claiming that he won't waste his time on Reason anymore.
Then, like some lingering incurable, anti-biotic resistant disease, a few minutes, hours or days later, he starts the cycle over again.
It's possible you could cure him of his malevolent habits, or perhaps you will enjoy responding to him. If so, I wish you plenty of luck. But far more likely, you will look back on the lost minutes composing posts to him with regret since they would be more productively spent watching Britney Spears' performance at the MTV music awards.
tarran: I hadn't known this about Edward. I responded in good faith. At least it got something going between me and Isaac above.
And Mississippi and Alabama do so much better under Republican leadership.
Cesar,
Part of the reason they are in such bad shape is the political culture(100+ years of Democrat rule)Republicans offer no quick fix as they are largely the same people who party switch as the States trend right.There are many factors involved: poor primary education, the legal culture and tort liability making them hostile to business investment and a large poor minority population which has lost some of its more ambitious members through a century of Northern(or urban South, ie ATL) flight.
I heard this on NPR today. It was really funny:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14428700
Tells something about the poisonous political environment in the US today. Here is a synopsis:
Comedian Mo Rocca took an interesting political experiment to the streets: He challenged potential voters in New York City to say nice things about various political candidates that they don't like.
Part of the reason they are in such bad shape is the political culture(100+ years of Democrat rule)Republicans offer no quick fix as they are largely the same people who party switch as the States trend right.There are many factors involved: poor primary education, the legal culture and tort liability making them hostile to business investment and a large poor minority population which has lost some of its more ambitious members through a century of Northern(or urban South, ie ATL) flight.
I agree, and I'm happy you admitted there is a bigger problem down there than the ruling party. There seems to be a growing gap between the Atlantic (Virginia, Carolinas, Georgia and Florida) and Inner (Gulf Coast+Upland) South, and I sincerely hope it doesn't grow further.
I think my nutjob reference touched a sore spot with tarran. I can understand a fundamentalist libertarian supporting Ron Paul, but only a nutjob could imagine either that Ron Paul has a serious chance of winning the Republican nomination or that he would have if only the media didn't denigrate or ignore him.
"An Ogonowksi victory isn't likely, but it's not impossible, and it would dramatically change the political debate. A proud pro-war Republican will have won by attacking both Bush and the congressional Democrats. Independents will have swung back to the GOP. The Democratic aura of inevitability would be battered, maybe enough to perk up Republican fundraising and keep one or two from retiring. No Republican has flipped a Democratic seat in a special election since Virginia's Michael Forbes in 2001, and no Republican has flipped a seat in New England since Rob Simmons won Connecticut's second district (New London, Norwich) in 2000."
Thanks, David, for the best belly laugh I've had all week! As if a Democratic loss in Mass Five could completely reverse the tide against the Republicans! Yeah, and the Chiefs are going to win the Superbowl!
"How about if [Ron Paul] runs as an independent? That could seriously hurt the republicans if he does so. Sort of like Nader in 2000 with the Dems."
As a yellow dog Democrat, I hope that Paul runs as an independent/hermaphrodite. Citing Nader, however, does not seem to be the most persuasive argument for a protest candidate. Nader's ego boosted George W. Doofus to the position whence Rehnquist, O'Connor, Scalia, Kennedy and Uncle Thomas anointed him. May all seven of them spend eternity in their own circle of Hell.
"As a yellow dog Democrat"
I prefer the blue ones...
"Bobby Jindal may actually turn that State around in a big way before going on to become our first 'minority' President in 2016."-- SIV
"In 2006, Jindal voted with the Republican Caucus 97% of the time during the 109th Congress[14]. In 2007, Congress.org, a nonpartisan group, ranked Jindal 432 out of 439 in terms of overall effectiveness in the US House during the 110th Congress."
And also:
"Jindal is an enthusiastic supporter of the war in Iraq. In 2005, Jindal led other freshman Republican House members in dipping their fingers in purple dye to celebrate the 2005 Iraqi national elections."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jindal
Great judgment that guy has. Louisiana can have him because they probably deserve him. But I hope they spare the rest of the country his fearless leadership.
The "yellow dogs" were anti closed shop contracts ...
The "blue dogs" are supposed to be for balancing the budget by cutting spending to equal any new spending...but pro war and socially conservative.
Who let the dogs out! Both seem to be from the South-any connection to Michael Vick?
I think Greenspan's going with Ron Paul.
"The Republicans in Congress lost their way," writes Mr. Greenspan, a self-described "libertarian Republican."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/business/15greenspan.html
Isn't Goldberg a soft supporter of Romney? How can anyone that doesn't think Romney is anything but an stereotypical opportunistic politician (though a highly competent one) call Bill/Hillary out on trying to have it both ways. At least the Clintons were honest enough to say they wanted abortion to be legal but rae, Romney changed his mind from an important right for women that he would protect to an abomination and murder of millions of innocents in less time than it takes to get an MBA.
An amazing poll number out today:
Rudy Giuliani is now tied with Hillary Clinton in ultra-ultra-ultra liberal Washington State.
Source - Race42008.com
Rudy 46% (up 5 since last poll)
Hillary 46%
Folks, Rudy can win in areas no other Republican can. he will put the Dems on the defensive. And force them to spend money in very blue states, even here in California.
I know lots of libertarian Republicans in Washington State. And they are all supporting Rudy, cause they know he'll help their downticket candidates.
Libertarians for Giuliani
http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com
P.S. A piece of hot political news just breaking... Steve Beren, Pro-War on Islamo-Fascism libertarian Republican will be declaring a 2nd run against ultra-Socialist Jim McDermott in WA State (Seattle District)
Donderaro-I've often though Guliani should appeal to libertarians, after all cmpared to the other God's Own Party candidates he's more reasonable on gay rights and abortion rights. However, that guy clearly doesn't give a crap about libertarians given his childish and willful baiting of Ron Paul. The guy is also a first class creep, dodging military service and then prosecuting other dodgers, and his treatment of his family (really, if someone's nuclear family can't bring themselves to vote for him then YIKES).
libertree-I may be wrong, but I think the term yellow dog Democrat simply referred to certain Southern Democratic areas which were pretty conservative but who voted for Democrats out of tradition. It was said that they would rather vote "for a yellow dog" than a Republican, hence the name...
Well, edward, I am glad that my level of support for Ron Paul does not meet your nutjob criteria.
Anyone going to see Ron Paul in Fort Lauderdale on Monday?
If so, shoot me an email, I'm trying to get a happy hour group together...
tarran,
Your analysis is pretty nutjob in any case.
Edward - you are neither interesting, intelligent, entertaining nor relevant. How sad that an Objectivist is funnier than you are (think hard about that).
Please go away.
Yeah, and the Chiefs are going to win the Superbowl!
And they'll be playing the Lions. 😉
Edward,
Honest question: What's your point?
Dondero-
Most people on here don't give two flying shits if the Republican wins next time or not. I'm not going to vote for someone who conducts federal raids on sick people, outlaws "lifestyle" crimes in New York, showed complete lack of respect for the Constitution as a prosecutor, has mob connections., and is anti-second amendment.
I'm trying to figure out which aspect of my analysis that Edward found to be full of nutjobbery:
Was it my claim that Ron Paul had no significant chance to win the Republican nomination?
Or was it my prediction that he no significant chance win the general election?
Or perhaps my prediction that he would lose a fight with Congress and be impeached if he tried to put his ideas into practice?
So edward, which is it? Do you think that only a nutjob thinks Paul can't win the nomination? Or that only a nutjob things that Paul can't win the presidency? Or that only a nutjob thinks that Paul would lose a fight with Congress?
I guess since you have always claimed that Paul had no chance of winning the nomination or the election, it must be option 3; you must think it obvious that as president he would kick the Congress and Supreme Court's asses.
Damn, Edward, I didn't know you thought Ron Paul was such a superman.
The Senate looks bad for Republicans, but I still don't think things are very rosy for Democrats when it comes to the White House.
I just don't think Hillary (or Obama or Edwards) can win nationally, barring massive vote fraud. Dick Morris seems to think that armies of single women will come out of the woodwork to vote for her, but I don't think that will overcome the huge negatives she has among men and married women, plus all of her scandal baggage. (Which isn't all safely packed away, e.g. Hsu.) If she's running against Rudy or Fred, I'd bet lots of blue-collar Democratic men will jump ship.
Much of the time since 1950 we've had a Republican President and a Democratic Congress, and we may be going back to that.
. No Republican has flipped a Democratic seat in a special election since Virginia's Michael Forbes in 2001
Its Randy Forbes.
"Part of the reason they are in such bad shape is the political culture(100+ years of Democrat rule)Republicans offer no quick fix as they are largely the same people who party switch as the States trend right.There are many factors involved: poor primary education, the legal culture and tort liability making them hostile to business investment and a large poor minority population which has lost some of its more ambitious members through a century of Northern(or urban South, ie ATL) flight."
This post says a lot about SIV's many confused ideas. Notice how he kind of get's the idea that the Democrats that ruled the South are not the Democrats of today (in fact they are the Republicans of today), but doesn't quite close the loop...It's that kind of thinking that finds today's progressives to be worse on drugs than today's conservatives...It's also dubious that they suffer from tort liability problems: California is notorious for expanding liability and their economy is not in the craphole. The biggest problems in those two states is the heat (the entire deep south was an investment nightmare before air condition became inexpensive) and the racial tensions.
"I just don't think Hillary (or Obama or Edwards) can win nationally, barring massive vote fraud. "
PapayaSF-I agree. The Dems are going to hand the White House to the GOP. Edwards is the lightest of lightweights, and a woman or minority starts out with far too much of a weight to win. The Dems are hilarious thinking they are taking the White House. It strikes me that while the GOP remains the Stupid Party on their policy stances (creationism!) the Dems remain the Stupid Party when it comes to political strategy...
By two states I meant MS and LA. I guess I should add that Red States tend to have tepid economies, and MS and LA are incredibly Red (their conservatives are rabid, the only reason elections are at times competitive is because of the large minority populations which vote 90%+ for the Dem). A conservative mentality is not good for innovation, or smarts in general, for that matter...
Maybe Rudy is really an ultra-ultra-ultra liberal, and you just haven't figured it out yet. But more likely I think it's because Clinton is pro-war. She is opposed to the Iraq occupation NOT on moral grounds, but simply because it ain't the Democrats running the war.
The ultra-ultra-ultra liberals in the Seattle area (the rest of the state is moderate to conservative) are not supporting Rudy, they're dissing Hillary. How much different would that poll have been if there had been the option of "anyone but these two bozos"?
"The picture for the House of Representatives? Less clear."- dw
Not really. Since 1913, when the 17th amendment permitted the direct election of senators,the house majority has never flipped parties unless the senate did also. Never, as in - not even once.
Given:
A) the incontrovertible evidence that divided government limits the growth of the state, and...
B) a very real possibility of single party Democratic party government with a 60 vote plurality in the Senate,which ...
C) is likely to be every bit as dangerous to freedom as the last six years of Republican single party control.
I submit that practical libertarians will have no choice but to vote Republican for President in order to re-elect divided government.
For now, I will support Ron Paul in the Republican primaries. But I am prepared to hold my nose and vote for whatever piece of shit the Republicans nominate. Even if it is Giuliani.
It is more important to re-elect divided government, than it is to worry about which major party presidential candidate is a bigger tool.
A potential side benefit of this voting heuristic - libertarians might even be recognized as a significant swing voting block and attract some pandering to libertarian issues by the majors.
An open thread about politics?
Politicians are boring. People who talk about politicians are boring.
...boring, boring, boring.
I'm a freak for libertarianism and I even think libertarian politicians are boring!
BOOOORRRrrriiIIIiiinnnnnG!
Ken Shultz:
Kind of my feelings, too. I am bored with the predictability and rhetoric, the arguments and counter-arguments. All of this seems like a waste of time.
OK, need time better spent, if you haven't read Ron Paul's book (probably you did) "Freedom Under Siege", it would be a time much better spent. Just found an online verison:
http://dailypaul.com/node/23
(not sure if this is legal -- regarding copyright and all), but I am reading my hard copy. Just delivered to me this week.
Question: Anyone knows where (online) to buy libertarian bumper stickers? Found a couple of websites -- not that appealing and thought I could probably do better.
iih, you could make your own. I believe they sell blank bumper stickers that are designed for laser printers.
I think cafe-press is a pretty cheap method of getting slogans and images on a wide variety of merchandise. Their bumper stickers are probably more durable.
Out of curiosity, what do you see as the flaws in the current crop of bumperstickers? (I have thoughts on the subject but don't want to contaminate the sample 🙂 ).
What kind of message do you want to send to people?
"I submit that practical libertarians will have no choice but to vote Republican for President in order to re-elect divided government."
I'm not so sure about this...Democrats as a party are much more divided than the GOP who tend to march in goose/lockstep (look at their votes). Clinton had two years with a Dem Congress didn't he? And I don't remember him getting jack done...Heck, Carter had four years and was able to get through very little.
If it's spending you care about that will keep going up regardless of who is in power or whether it's divided. Any budget has to get a majority, and to get it it has to promise a majority of congresspersons goodies for their district...
tarran:
Just googled around, but could not figure if I am finding the "best and cheapest" out there. Found some interesting stuff, but I just thought to ask here first. I do not have access to a color laser printer. I do not have a particular message in mind. That is why I was trying to shop around.
"What kind of message do you want to send to people?"
If I were a dyed in the wool libertarian and wanted to make the movement more popular, I'd soft pedal the economic stuff like hell. It's what keeps me from identifying with the movement. A bumper sticker that says "Libertarians: Working Hard to Lift the Already Meager Restrictions on Your Boss' Power to Order You Around" is going to be a hard sell indeed.
I think a good strategy to make libertarianism more popular is to focus on the war on drugs. There is a significant minority in this nation that thinks it is bullsh*t tyranny but essentially is not represented by either major party. On other social freedoms (except guns) the Dems have most people covered. When it comes to economic freedoms and property rights issues the GOP has most people covered (at least in rhetoric, which sadly is all most voters follow). But the WOD is the best opportunity for libertarians by far. The only problem is that many people who find the WOD immoral are not reliably politically active...
Mr. Nice Guy:
Talking about WOD. CNN is now replaying a program on the drug industry in Afghanistan. Just learned that the DEA sends its people to train Afghanis on how to fight the WOD. I personally have moral objections to drugs, but also have moral objections to restricting it by law. A Colombian friend of mine once told me about a lot of horrific things that happened as a consequence of the WOD in his (and this) country. Interestingly, growing poppies flourished multiple times larger, now after the official implementation of a WOD there, than when the Taliban ruled the country.
Last sentence in my last thread refers to Afghanistan -- not Colombia.
Interesting. I heard the exact same argument from Republicans before the mid-terms, blaming RINOs for their spending history. It is an argument to change a politically inconvenient definition of divided government. On my blog I reference historical research and analysis by scholars and economists who hypothesize causal relationships based on a specific definition of Divided Government: one party controls the White House and another party controls one or both houses of Congress. Now, if I am advocating (as I am), a voting strategy based on that research, the strategy will have no validity or foundation if I use a different defintion than the research on which it is based. Example:
Economist William Niskanen has shown that federal spending growth is restrained under divided government, using this definition of divided government. I would like to see the growth of federal spending restrained, so I advocate voting to maintain divided government, using the same definition of divided government that Niskanen does.
If you have research showing the consquences on spending growth when we have an ideologically split single party, then there is something to talk about. I am unaware of any such research. Until I see it, I'll stick with this defintion.
It is certainly true that spending goes up regardless. It is an empirical fact that it goes up at a much slower rate in a divided government. Slower is better.
Hignumber:
Honest answer. My original point was to ask why Ron Paul doesn't figure into this post. Several posts on H&R have suggeested that Mr. Paul is a serious candidate. I think he's a joke. More than one regular poster here seems to think he can actually win. I think they're either stupid or nuts. And then I'm attacked. I would never have given Ron Paul a second thought.
tarran:
Here's the nutjob part of your analysis:
"However, if he [Ron Paul] plays his cards right, he could pull it off and become the Republican party's presidential candidate."
Your math must be weak and your reasoning skills non-existent.
Yes, we'll just pretend the McGovern nomination never happened shall we?
As I was pointing out to iih, you're the one with the Ron Paul fixation, not me.
I just am amused by how often you're the one who brings him up.
I also am amused by how often you claim to be done with Reason and how you'll never post again.
BTW, I make my living writing software. A significant portion of what I write makes use of statistical algorithms. I also teach math at a local college. My paying customers - who are quite satisfied with my work, I might add - might disagree with your claims about my reasoning and mathematical ability. 🙂
I think I have a pretty good understanding of the difference between 0 chance and a non-zero but insignificant probability. Next you'll be claiming that Einstein was a nutjob for promulgating a theory that assigns a non-zero probability to all the oxygen molecules in a room migrating to one corner.
So, now that you've had your ass handed to you yet again, are we at the part where you claim that you aren't going to waste your time on the Reason website? When do we get the pathetic Nixonian post that says "You won't have Edward to kick around anymore"?
I ask out of morbid curiosity.
MR Nice Guy,
I realize you are easily confused so I will expound on my point above.Party rule in a State refers to who controls the State legislature. Despite years of conservative dominance in National politics mnay Southern States are(ex NC),or have been until recently(ex GA), ruled by Democrat legislatures/assemblies. Switching control is not so much any kind of ideological change as it is a means os shaking up the system and a "remapping" of the levers of power. One-party rule is a bad thing, particularly over a long period of time.Changing party rule is what they used to call RE-form (emphasis on 1st syllable).It is somewhat stymied by powerful Dems switching to Repubs as they see the wind shifting.Changing Parties in the US Congress IS often a change in ideology(well it was in '94).
My Saturn sports 2 stickers. One has a Libertarian message by Milton Friedman.
"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."
The other bumpersticker is the first one for a political candidate on any of my cars, ever.
"Ron Paul for President '08"
There is a full size Ron Paul For President billboard along I-20 in Anniston Alabama
Shows his face with a checked box next to his name. First 2008 Presidential campaign sign I've seen anywhere.
SIV-I agree that one party rule is a a rule a bad thing. Of course rule at the state level is more than just the legislature (where things are actually a bit nuanced for Southern States: TX FL, VA and SC actually have GOP majorities in both houses and MS has GOP majority in one house). Governors are also involved, and the South, including the deep South has had plenty of GOP governors (currently MS, AL, TX, SC, Fl, etc. have one).
One party rule is a terrible thing, almost as bad as conservative rule. That's what the South had under it's Dixiecrats and that's what it has under it's current Republican parties. Red conservative states tend to have worse economies, interestingly for the purposes of the axioms of many on this blog despite the fact that red states score higher on measures of economic "freedom."
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2005/05/median_income_d.html
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/12/economic_freedo.html
iih-The New Yorker recently had a long article on the U.S. eradication efforts in Afghanistan. Interestingly it detailed how the focus on eradication confused our allies over there (especially a Dutch contingent) and enraged farmers that could be potential allies...
Mr. Nice Guy: In the documentary, Cooper said that NATO refused to help with the effort because it only meant more angry poor peasants, more violance, more support for Taliban, and hence more fighting with NATO forces, especially in the south were non-US forces exist. So NATO memners in the south simply bailed out, something that angered the US. Another interesting thing mentioned in the documentary is that drugs that cost $100,000 in NY, earns the peasant a mere $300.
"Question: Anyone knows where (online) to buy libertarian bumper stickers? Found a couple of websites -- not that appealing and thought I could probably do better."
Heck yeah you could do better.
I was thinkin' of going with three. One on the left would say "The only people who have a right to complain are the people who don't vote." One on the right would say "All politicians are assholes." And then one in the middle would just have the text of the First Amendment.
Ken:
OK, my thinking today is a bit slow, so I think I half-get the one on the left. The one on the right is factually false (RP is the counter example, I would hope), and the one in the center makes a lot of sense (esp. vis-a-vis the GOP), but wouldn't that be a lot of words for a sticker?
The one I saw on a car yesterday that I really liked (but would not put on my car) was the big "W" next to the flag, but instead of the 04 that appears to the right of the lower half of the "W" and below the flag, it reads "TF". So the whole thing says (in case your brain is half dead, too) WTF. That was really funny.
tarran,
It's pointless arguing with you about your understanding and intelligence. You can't follow the argument and naturally think you've won. Your steady diet of slogans has mucked up your mental digestion and blurred your grasp of reality.
Man, I sure miss Edward since he said he'd stop posting on this site.
EDWAARRRRRRRDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
"The one on the right is factually false (RP is the counter example, I would hope), and the one in the center makes a lot of sense (esp. vis-a-vis the GOP), but wouldn't that be a lot of words for a sticker?"
I guess it depends on your definition of "asshole". If an asshole is somebody who doesn't really do anything, just shits all over everything, then I might argue that, yeah, politicians by definition are people who don't really do anything...
But I can see how a different strategy might work better. Assuming the candidates from the two major parties are Hillary and Giuliani, for instance, I might go with a "Hillary Clinton is an asshole." sticker on the left and a "Giuliani is a bitch." sticker on the right. Again with the text of the First Amendment down the middle.
Yeah, you'd have to get up close to read the First Amendment sticker, but I'm thinking it's mostly for people who'd get up close and personal. God forbid, but some people might actually complain about the language. I mean if political speech isn't protected then what is? ...and as far as I'm concerned "George W. Bush is a motherfucker." constitutes political speech.
Stevo,
Didn't you know that the black knight always prevails?
The Dixiecrats were the States' Rights Democratic Party who ran Strom Thurmond in 1948.They were the third worst choice following the Republicans and Democrats but much better than Henry Wallace's Communist front Progressive Party.
The Dixiecrats ceased to exist after that election. Thir political memorabilia is quite valuable.
Not suprising that a Democrat Vice-President would run as an actual Communist.
Edward is just upset that the fat loser he supports, Richardson, has about as much chance to be the Democrat nominee as Gravel. Because he gets tired of other Democrats looking at him like he's some kind of New Age dingbat who goes to Kucinich rallies and performs interpretative dance to warm up the crowd*, he comes around here to attack Paul supporters. He fails to understand that while Paul may not be the Republican nominee, Richardson also will not be the Democrat nominee, so support for either is equally quixotic. Just ignore him.
*This actually happens.
Ken:
How about "'None of the above' for President '08"?
That's it! I'm done posting on this crap site!
Sorry, that was me, just then.
I guess eventually I will agree with everyone here on something.Well, maybe not the vegan animal rightists.
I should keep a list of the commenters I am suprised to share a view with-even if they only expressed it for rhetorical or trolling purposes.
Dan T.
joe
Neu Mejican- on Iggy Pop's contribution to music
Fluffy-Richardson is an unelectable fat loser
Fluffy,
You're just envious that Richardson hasn't picked up the support of loonies like Aaron Russo and David Duke. Ron Paul smells like shit. Must be the company he keeps.
If you can't follow this, tarran, let me know. I'll try to explain it to you.
Ken:
Here is the Bush sticker:
http://www.stampandshout.com/shop/bumper-stickers/oval-wtf-campaign.php
OK, Fluffy I almost missed that last asterisk.
Does that really happen? Are there photos?
That's it! I'm done posting that I'm done posting on this crap site!
"Here is the Bush sticker:
http://www.stampandshout.com/shop/bumper-stickers/oval-wtf-campaign.php
Sweet!
No, Someone, I unfortunately don't have any photos.
But I swear that it happened in the 2004 election cycle. I was trying to see every candidate in NH at least once, and I went to a Kucinich event at a small college. Prior to Dennis' appearance, a husband and wife duo calling themselves "The Vibration Army" came out to entertain the crowd. The guy did a "human beatbox" trick and the girl did New Age interpretative dance. I shit you not.
Another great one I found on that (clearly left-leaning) website:
"How did our oil get under their sand?"
That many of the people who were and supported the Dixiecrats became Republicans, like their candidate did, is historical fact. The national Democratic Party changed dramatically becoming the socially Progressive party they are today, and most socially conservative members found a warm home in the GOP. This is why it's silly to conflate the Progressives of 1900-1920's with the Progressives of the 1960's. They may share a penchant for economic populism and the same name, but one was socially conservative the other anti-socially conservative. The Progressive movement that exists today is vehemently anti-socially conservative. It's much more their raison d'etre than economic liberalism.
I would have picked H. Wallace over Strom any day of the week...Wallace had ideas sympathetic to Communism, and his Party had many Communists in it. He was a kook personally. But he himself publicly said he did not endorse Communism and at least he was not a straight out racist fascist like ol' Strom and the Dixiecrat/Republicans. It's not suprising this guy felt more at home in the Republican Party. Here's some of Strom's eloquent language used in his 1948 campaign: "I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches." What a neanderthal...
"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches."
But apparently no army was required to force one into his bedroom!
On the divided government / which party to vote for in the next election comments above:
I think it's likely that we're gonna end up with one-party rule after the upcoming election -- the populace wants the Iraq war to end, and too many people haven't yet drawn the obvious conclusion that the Democrats didn't really mean it when they said they'd end the war, despite only needing 41 Senators filibustering legislation to fund the war. I frankly don't believe that we're gonna be out of Iraq until at least 2010, even if the Democrats run the table next year, because the Democrats want to keep banging the drum slowly about "Bush's / teh Republercans war". Heck, we're starting to see "progressives" calling for a resumption of the draft in the Hawaii papers.
That being said, I don't vote based on party, I vote on whether the person is at least somewhat libertarian in outlook, and in the last election I left most of my ballot blank because there wasn't anybody I could stomach voting for.
I'll vote for Ron Paul in the primary, and when he gets his low single digit results, switch to whatever unbalanced blue-skinned nutjob 😉 is running as the Libertarian Party candidate.
The bottom line? The chance of your vote ever counting in any election whatsoever -- the chance of it being the deciding vote -- is essentially zero. Seriously. Can anyone here name a single race decided by their one vote? Anyone?
Given that reality, make a statement -- vote for people with libertarian outlooks, and if none such is available, leave that race blank. Quit voting for a slightly less worse bastard.
MNG,
I said they were the third worst.....
Henry Wallace and the Progressive Party were Communist tools.If forced at gunpoint I would chose ol' Strom over Uncle Joe Stalin's lackey Henry Wallace- the former Democrat Vice President of the United states. Who like today's Progressive Democrats called all his opponents Fascists.
I'm sure in your world "Nice guy" Stalin supported drug legalization.
"Libertarians: Working Hard to Lift the Already Meager Restrictions on Your Boss' Power to Order You Around" is going to be a hard sell indeed.
Almost as hard a sell, Mr. Nice Guy, as the bumper sticker "Authoritarians: Working Hard to Run Your Economy into the Ground and Walk You Closer to the Brink of a Dictatorial Nanny-State Hellhole".
;P
Cesar-good one, I had forgotten that in addition to being a neanderthal Strom was a hypocrite!
Prolefeed-Yeah, both are hard sells, but I don't think most people see OSHA and overtime laws as "the Brink of a Dictatorial Nanny-State Hellhole". They like not having toxic waste spill on them at work and getting paid time and a half and don't see this as creeping socialism, which is of course why they say "no thanks" to libertarians such as yourself!
As far as bumper stickers go: how about this one?
Of Course, You Can
Trust the Government.
Ask Any Indian.
sold here
Just going through the anti-bush bumper stickers, I still can't believe that a GOP congress pressed for impeachment of a president for a private affair, while a president that caused a great quagmire is still at large vis-a-vis impeachment. The main obstacle is, of course, the GOP members of congress. How stupid can hardcore republicans be? Unbelievable.
It amazes me that you find people who see things like the OSHA laws as oppressive, awful things. These people always say "well a person is always free to quit if they feel their boss is unsafe (or harrassing, or arbitrary, etc.,)". These folks are almost undoubtedly protected every day by dozens of these government "oppressions" on their bosses. They have no idea how they would react if they were forced to negotiate all these taken for granted protections. Quitting all the time would mean loss of benefits, seniority pay, etc...In fact, in this nation's past, when laissez-faire was the dominant ideology, people had all that "blessed freedom" these libertarians dream of and the moment it was seriously suggested to get rid of it they junked it. They were wise enough to see from their experiences that liberty is not always ascertained by "freedom to contract."
I'm going to pretend this is an open thread.
I'd like any liberal/democrat to explain to me why that now the magic month of September has come, the war is no closer to ending. I was told by many of my Democratic friends in real life--and by one in particular on this blog (joe)--that in September the Democrats would grow balls and Republicans would jump ship. Why isn't this happening?
And here is a fun weekend question for conservatives and Republicans.
Imagine Hillary Clinton wins the presidency. What do you think of her having powerful unitary executive tools?
Cesar:
Giving the dems the benefit of the doubt, they have made such a promise only if they sweep congress, which they did not. It is my understanding that, otherwise, they really have no way to overcome the republican large minority.
Imagine Hillary Clinton wins the presidency. What do you think of her having powerful unitary executive tools?
That is actually a trick question, because it is Bush who expanded such presidential powers. According to Charlie Savage's new book, it is all preplanned to create a more authoritarian government (Bush is the much-needed precedent for future GOP presidents to encroach on Americans' civil liberties, privacy, and property rights (imminent domain)).
Well, eminent domain is most usually favored by liberals. It was the conservatives on the court to their great credit who voted against Kelo. Bush has a lot of faults but hes given us good small-government supreme court nominees.
Cesar -- eminent domain aside... So?
It amazes me that you find people who see things like the OSHA laws as oppressive, awful things. These people always say "well a person is always free to quit if they feel their boss is unsafe (or harrassing, or arbitrary, etc.,)".
You don't as a rule make people better off by taking away options. You may find dangerous work distasteful, but someone else may like the pay. Some people voluntarily work in Iraq, for example, and not because they are unaware of the dangers.
Big News: Alan Greenspan, who calls himself a "libertarian Republican" praises Bill Clinton in his just published memoir. I can't wait to hear the reactions of the nutjob libertarians.
Here's something from Greenspan's "Memwah" that appeared in THE INPENDENT:
"AMERICA's elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.
In his long-awaited memoir, to be published tomorrow, Greenspan, a Republican whose 18-year tenure as head of the US Federal Reserve was widely admired, will also deliver a stinging critique of President George W Bush's economic policies.
However, it is his view on the motive for the 2003 Iraq invasion that is likely to provoke the most controversy. "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil," he says.
Greenspan, 81, is understood to believe that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the security of oil supplies in the Middle East" (end of quote)
Hah!! So it was about oil afterall!! What a surprise!!!
And here is a fun weekend question for conservatives and Republicans.
Imagine Hillary Clinton wins the presidency. What do you think of her having powerful unitary executive tools?
It is gonna suck.I would like a President of any Party to have the power to do what is necessary to destroy foreign enemies of America. That said, war time powers of the State are going to be used for whatever those in control want to use them for.
Did REASON ever cover the use of the Patriot Act to enforce Federal Animal Law?
Osama who? We have a Cockfighting threat!
Hmmm,
I wonder whether Greenspan wrote anything that sheds light on the rumor concerning a deal Nixon supposedly made with the Saudi king which essentially resulted in the U.S. dollar pegged loosely to Saudi oil.
According to the rumor, in return for the Saudi king only selling oil for dollars, the U.S. government made certain security guarantees to the Saudi monarchy. On the surface the rumor would explain a lot, including the sudden stampede to attack Iran (Iran seemed to jump from a low priority enemy to a high priority one in the U.S. government's rhetoric shortly after they announced their intention to sell oil for Euros) and Iraq (the anti-Saddam rhetoric spiked after he made a similar decision to the Iranians), and the kid-gloves with which we handle the Saudi monarchy ( the Taliban were not solely funded by Osama Bin Laden and the Pakistani Intelligence Service - the Saudi government was giving them a bunch of money as well. In addition, there have been reports that clerics in the pay of the Saudi King have been encouraging disaffected young men to go fight Americans in Iraq - so that they will be killed by American soldiers rather than causing trouble at home).
Nonetheless, the rumor remains an unsubstantiated one. It would be interesting to read what Greenspan had to say on the subject. Though a person listening to him should bear in mind that he will make misleading public statements if he thinks it will be to his benefit. The example that immediately leaps to mind is his claim that he had gotten the Fed to act as if the dollar was backed by a gold standard. This claim was so laughable at the time that I don't know anyone who bought it. I don't think he believed that statement, rather it was designed to mute criticism that his policies were substantially different than the ones he advocated in the 50's & 60's. Thus, I would take his public pronouncements with a grain of salt.
Stevo,
Didn't you know that the black knight always prevails?
You mean Edwardoo is actually ... Batman???
Not batman, you know, the other one...
The one who fights with the strength of many men and who moves for no man, who once, despite suffering a few flesh-wounds and scratches, fought King Arthur in single combat so tenaciously that the King had to flee across a bridge to escape..
When it come to the reaction of nutjob libertarians, unsubstantiated rumors and semi-coherent ruminations about them are pretty much what I expected. Thanks, terran.
Think a gallon of gas is expensive?
This makes one think, and also puts things in perspective.
Diet Snapple 16 oz $1.29 $10.32 per gallon
Lipton Ice Tea 16 oz $1.19 .........$9.52 per gallon
Gatorade 20 oz $1.59 .... $10.17 per gallon
Ocean Spray 16 oz $1.25 . $10.00 per gallon
Brake Fluid 12 oz $3.15 . $33.60 per gallon
Vick's Nyquil 6 oz $8.35 $178.13 per gallon
Pepto Bismol 4 oz $3.85 .. $123.20 per gallon
Whiteout 7 oz $1.39 .. $2542 per gallon
Scope 1.5 oz $0.99 $84.48 per gallon
Evian water 9 oz $1.49..........$21.19 per gallon!
$21.19 for WATER
And the buyers don't even know the source.
Big news: I just bought a two-liter of whiteout! Hoo-boy was it expensive.
In other news I think posts about Batman suck and are written by nutjobs or possibly nutballs.
The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that your boss needs you to make money for himself--underlying the employer/employee relationship is a harmony of interests, not class warfare.
It is harder to find good employees than this line of reasoning assumes. Perhaps it applies to the type of job where you stand in an assembly line and turn the same screw day in and day out, but it hardly applies to the information economy we have today. Your boss can only treat you as bad as he needs you to succeed.
Laws that regulate the workplace, like all laws, have their pernicious side effects as well. You can't get fired in France, but with 10-30% unemployment, you also can't get hired in the first place...
Yep.
It would be really good if the War Party lost the election and the Socialized Medicine Party Won.
Wars end occasionally. Socialized medicine is forever.
I love Libs. who are objectively for Socialized Medicine and who actively take the Communist line on American foreign policy.
Maybe there is something to this Libertarianism stuff after all.
iih | September 15, 2007, 10:27pm Cesar:
Giving the dems the benefit of the doubt, they have made such a promise only if they sweep congress, which they did not. It is my understanding that, otherwise, they really have no way to overcome the republican large minority.
Conservatives won the 2006 election. Some of them have a D behind their name. Don't let that fool you.
prole says:
I think it's likely that we're gonna end up with one-party rule after the upcoming election -- the populace wants the Iraq war to end
in victory. Which is why the Dems can't get it up.
Libs have never understood political practice. They are theory (utopian) wizards.
BTW any one care to check out wartime restrictions in WW2 vs the current dust up?
"The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that your boss needs you to make money for himself--underlying the employer/employee relationship is a harmony of interests, not class warfare.
It is harder to find good employees than this line of reasoning assumes."
The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that the boss needs you LESS than the average worker needs him. He's got capital and resources to sit on that will outlast any worker's, and since people don't like them or their kids being thrown out on the streets or starving, they will cave to working conditions or pay they otherwise would never agree to. It also assumes, empirically falsely, that people are not just maximizers, but relentless ones. That if an average worker makes them a big profit, but a better one makes them a bigger one, that they will relentlessly look for the second. Many are just fine with a decent profit and being able to be an authoritarian a**hole boss.
As for harmony of interests between bosses and employers, that is just funny! How many workplaces are run by mutual consent of the employer and employee? And how many people like being told what to do by another person because he has more capital than they? So much for harmony of interests...
"It is gonna suck.I would like a President of any Party to have the power to do what is necessary to destroy foreign enemies of America."
I would to. But knowing that government is made up of men, and that men are not angels, I would also like safeguards built in so governments could NOT use their powers reserved for destroying foriegn enemies of America against citizens without due process of law. I'd also like for them not to use their powers reserved for destroying foriegn enemies in amazingly stupid and irresponsible ways...
Jim Oganowski is not a "proud pro-war Republican." He doesn't just criticize Bush's handling of the war, but calls it a mistake to have launched the war in the first place.
He also doesn't have a prayer. Nice fella, nice bio, doesn't have whole lot to say beyond that.
The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that the boss needs you LESS than the average worker needs him. He's got capital and resources to sit on that will outlast any worker's, and since people don't like them or their kids being thrown out on the streets or starving, they will cave to working conditions or pay they otherwise would never agree to.
This is hopelessly naive. Employers are bidding for labor in a *market*, for heaven sake.
Conservatives won the 2006 election. Some of them have a D behind their name. Don't let that fool you.
Um, yeah, like Sheldon Whitehouse, Joe Sestak, and Jim Webb. Real conservatives, those anti-Iraq War economic populists.
in victory. Which is why the Dems can't get it up.
Uh, yeah, that's totally the message of 2006.
As M. Simon demonstrates, Republicans are still in Mondale Mode. The JUST KNOW they're right about everything, the JUST KNOW the people are really on their side, because only monsters could possible disagree with the nice little slogans they use to describe their ideology.
When you act like Mondale, you get Mondaled. Keep it up, M. Simon. Stay the course! Until Victory!
You think those prices are expensive?
Hah, here they're selling distilled water for $7,621.33 per gallon.
Beat that!
Here it costs your firstborn. Or maybe a fistful of magic dust.
Here's the story Reason should be telling about the Massachusetts' Fifth: there were two leading candidates for the Democratic nomination - one a former Lowell Mayor and sitting City Councillor, and the other the widow of a US Senator and respected public citizen with extensive involvement in local causes. Two good candidates, one with a heftier resume, one with a little more charisma. But both women candidates in a state with no female Congressman, and both good progressives with the right positions on women's issues.
And then the national groups, like EMILY's List, get involved, giving a fortune to Tsongas's campaign, and she manages to eke out a 5 point victory.
If Tsongas had been the only woman in the race, or if she had been plainly better on their issues, that would be one thing, but she wasn't. The only reason they decided to back her is that she was one of them, a DC figure who'd been to their cocktail parties.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hold this against Niki Tsongas, even though I voted for her opponent, Eileen Donoghue. She's going to be a great candidate, a good Congressman, and put forward a good face for the district. But I do hold a grudge against the DC groups, because their efforts to make sure one candidate that is totally what they want was able to beat another candidate that is totally what they want, instead of using those resources to help swing a race in a way that genuinely advances their agenda.
It's just the DC consulting class and their incestuous relationships winning out over principle. It's frustrating.
RE the GOP: I smell blood. Let's swoop in and save the country, shall we?
Man, a small government conservative movement with a non-interventionist foreign policy?
With even the slightest nod to cultural traditionalism, such a movement could turn the neocon imperialists now running the GOP into the third party.
My wife and I were on our way to a brewery/eatery in Silverdale last night and I about shit myself when I saw a sign up in someone's yard: Ron Paul, Hope for America. The thing was like 6 feet by 8 feet. How cool.
Sage
Ron Paul is on record as wanting to abolish the CIA, FBI, Department of Homeland Security, FDA, IRS, Medicare, FBI, DEA, UN, NAFTA and CAFTA.
I don't care how big the signs for the slogans are, Ron Paul couldn't win even if all the other cadedates were killed in a plane crash. In the context of realistic politics, He is a total fucking clown.
"This is hopelessly naive. Employers are bidding for labor in a *market*, for heaven sake."
No, THAT is hopelessly naive, to think that all that goes on in those markets are self interested rational actors making voluntary mutually beneficial exchanges. No inequality in bargaining power (labor markets ain't like the markets for plasma tvs, you have to offer yourself int he former or starve while the latter is indeed a very voluntary choice), no culturally acquired tastes, prejudices, shared class presumptions, institutional barriers and incentives/disincentives, etc.,
BTW any one care to check out wartime restrictions in WW2 vs the current dust up?
Not me. I'm busy making plans for my VJ Day party.
"BTW any one care to check out wartime restrictions in WW2 vs the current dust up?"
War supportes do this all the time. We need to have what we had in WWII to fight this war. They usually say this when they want to endorse the Executive's power to detain and try people outside of the courts or wiretapping (of course they forget that FISA was passed and signed into law between then and now).
But then they turn around and say "this war and threat is different and unlike anything we have faced before and we need a radically new orientation to deal with it." They say this to violate Geneva, extinguish the difference between citizens and foriegners and those captured on US soil and battlefields, and in recognizing that this "war" will have virtually no "end."
They wan't their cake and to eat it too.
Ron Paul will never win! Please listen to me all you people saying Ron Paul will win!
Ron Paul can't even afford water. Then again, who can in our current white-out based economy?
No inequality in bargaining power (labor markets ain't like the markets for plasma tvs, you have to offer yourself int he former or starve while the latter is indeed a very voluntary choice)
The "starve" statement can equally be made for employers. Without employees, the employer starves. Same for capitalists. Without lending out capital, the capitalist starves. This is irrelevant.
You seem to have some vague idea that if A is richer than B, A can dictate terms to B. It doesn't work that way.
Bill Gates can't make a dime more flipping hamburgers than you can, even though he has all the "bargaining power" in the world, in your terms.
"BTW any one care to check out wartime restrictions in WW2 vs the current dust up?"
Gee, so I guess you think internment was a good idea? What about rationing? Support that, too?
It is gonna suck.
So remember the next time you shill for giving a Republican President more power, within as little as one year a "progressive" whom you really hate could have the same power. Its worth remembering.
Just think, SIV. What would Attorney General Janet Reno have done after a 9/11 style attack?
The Two Faces of Eric -
I've come to the conclusion that EDWARRRDDDOOOOO and DONDERRRRRROOOOOO are actually two different personalities in the same person. Consider the evidence:
They both have a frothing, rabid hatred of Ron Paul. Given that most of the regular posters here, including many who support Paul, have already stated they doubt he has a realistic chance of success, this monomaniacal urge of Edwardo/Dondero to dissuade people from supporting him is bizarre and disturbing.
They both continue to post long after it has been made perfectly clear to them that no one here gives a shit what they think. I suspect that Dondero/Edwardo can no longer afford the services of his Filipina dominatrix, and must now come to this site to receive the abuse he craves so badly.
There is one clear option - don't play into the sick fantasies of this depraved individual any longer. IOW, stop feeding the troll.
Well, I certainly find Dondero much more entertaining than "Edward".
Cesar,
Who gives a flying fuck what you find entertaining? I imagine you find most things just confusing.
Well, I do find you extremely confusing Edward. But I'm afraid I'm not alone.
BakedPenguine
I wonder if David Duke thinks Ron Paul has a chance. Duke's one of his biggest supporters. Ever wonder why?
I also hear David Duke thinks O.J. Simpson was guilty. Also, when asked if the world is round he said "yes". Therefore, both things must be wrong since David Duke supports them!
Edward-
If Ron Paul has no chance at the nomination (and he probably doesn't) then why do you go on and on about him? Why the hate? Its not like hes a real threat to you.
Mr. Nice Guy -
OSHA dates from the Nixon Administration.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that workers in the 1960's - supposedly the Golden Age of American Labor, when UAW workers all had second homes and boats - were laboring in some sort of dytopia where they were covered with toxic waste all day and their oppressive bosses ground them down using the threat of the reserve army of the unemployed?
OK, Che. Whatever you say.
Cesar,
I find it disgusting that a movement I admire for its many cogent positions on social issues destroys its credibility by supporting fools.
Why do you feed trolls?
I find it disgusting that a movement I admire for its many cogent positions on social issues destroys its credibility by supporting fools.
You think Ron Paul is a nut? Try Badnarik.
Why do you feed trolls?
Comic Relief?
BTW, Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani are nuts, too. Just in a different (and more dangerous) way.
...afford the services of his Filipina dominatrix, ...
Filipina dominatrixes are vastly overrated. I generally go with the Macedonian, or Estonian doms. 4 stars services guaranteed.
"The "starve" statement can equally be made for employers. Without employees, the employer starves."
That's redonkulous. A millionaire and a pauper go without working. Who starves first? Waaaaay first. Now that's unequal bargaining power.
"OSHA dates from the Nixon Administration." The point is that worker protections often protect the autonomy of millions of workers at the expense of (reasonable) restrictions of the freedom of thousands of employers. I used OSHA as an easily recognized shorthand for employee protection statutes in general. I don't know how to break this to you, but OSHA was not the first worker protection law passed in the U.S.. And, of course, most worker protection laws were passed in response to some scandal involving some a**hole employer who did something like lock his workers in a factory which burned down (events that people on this site swear companies would never, ever do, cuz after all they are rational self interested actors who would clearly see the negative impact on their bottom line from an angry public, right?) or horrid stories of maimed workers living in boxcars...Remember the accepted ideology of the time was exactly the laissez-faire bs many push here, but the voters, through hard experience, saw that results in some wack results...
Thanks for info, Helpful Submissive. Now get back in your box before I inform your mistress of your wayward behavior.
Edward, that stuff would be cheaper if 50 million Americans were buying 15 gallons of it a week.
""...afford the services of his Filipina dominatrix, ..."""
Back in the Marcos days that would have been about 5 bucks a week.
afford the services of his Filipina dominatrix
Michelle Malkin?
Edward | September 16, 2007, 5:22pm | #
Why do you feed trolls?
Hobbits!
Oh, I thought it asked "What do you feed trolls?"
Cesar:
afford the services of his Filipina dominatrix
Michelle Malkin?
Watch out. She can sue you for that (cf. "controversy" with Geraldo Rivera).
Cesar,
When have I ever shilled for giving a President(or any part of the State) more power? I do often point out that Democrats are no better or worse for liberty than Republicans.
When have I ever shilled for giving a President(or any part of the State) more power?
Ok, I've never heard you say much about the Iraq War, the PATRIOT act, etc. I do know, you seem to go along with the Republicans about 95% of the time, so I assume you support the PATRIOT Act, warantless wiretaps, Guantanamo Bay, etc. Am I correct? If I'm not, say so.
Just think, SIV. What would Attorney General Janet Reno have done after a 9/11 style attack?
Remember right after 9/11? When about 90% of the country breathed a huge sigh of relief that we didn't elect Al Gore.Expect the crowd who bemoaned AshKKKroft and Gonzales to fall silent or praise their Dem appointed replacement.
Concern with the erosion of civil liberties is largely partisan.
So, do you think the PATRIOT Act was a good idea or not? Presidential signing statements? The President declaring people "enemy combatants" who never see a trial? Warantless wiretapping?
Cesar,
95% is hyperbole. More like 0% with the Dems and 10% with the Republicans.
I have no problem with not extending Constitutional protections to foreign Nationals on foreign soil, particularly during war time.
Especially with the denial of Constitutional protections to Americans during peacetime(often supported by the loudest critics of the above).
I have no problem with not extending Constitutional protections to foreign Nationals on foreign soil
What about foreigners on domestic soil? Citizens on domestic soil? You trust the President alone, and not a court, to make the decision on who is a "Terrorist" and who is not?
Do you believe constitutional protections are only for citizens not (as they say) "persons"?
And warantless wiretaps of citizens is a-ok if we are at "War" (however defined)?
Weren't those "warrantless wiretaps" you bemoan conducted not under the Patriot Act but a Communications Providers in Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (or somesuch) passed by a Democratic congress and signed by Clinton in his first year in office?
Weren't those "warrantless wiretaps" you bemoan conducted not under the Patriot Act but a Communications Providers in Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (or somesuch) passed by a Democratic congress and signed by Clinton in his first year in office?
No, he didn't. When he wanted to do warantless wiretapping, he went to the super-secret court to get a warrant. Something Bush is unwilling to do for some odd reason, even though they almost never turn down requests.
Not that I like even the idea of a super-secret court approving these things. But Bush has taken these abuses (which have existed since about World War II) to a whole new level. If you can't see that, you have partisan goggles on.
And no, I don't think Hillary will give them up. Which is why Republicans are really, really stupid for supporting this in the first place!
Weren't those "warrantless wiretaps" you bemoan conducted not under the Patriot Act but a Communications Providers in Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (or somesuch) passed by a Democratic congress and signed by Clinton in his first year in office?
Why make this a partisan issue. Why get to miss the issue that way! They are wrong/right regardless of who is enacting them.
I have no problem with not extending Constitutional protections to foreign Nationals on foreign soil
SIV. Do you know that most of those released at Guantanamo (after years of imprisonment and possible torture) were sent there based on Afghanis reporting on their personal and political enemies as opposed to legitimate membership in Taliban? You may want to hear this:
http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1185
Concern with the erosion of civil liberties is largely partisan.
SIV: I think people all over the political spectrum are having diificulties with this administrations cavalier attitude toward civil liberties.
Better check on that Cesar.The law I cite permitted the collection of data on international calls without resorting to the FISA star chamber.
Do you expect any future Democrat administration to forego the powers sought and obtained by this or any previous administration? Expext them to agressively grab more authority while the civil liberties kool aid taps you are drinking from will run dry as the "correcct people" are in power.
J sub D,
Yes they are. Much as people across the spectrum had difficulty with the erosion of civil liberties under Reagan/Bush I.If the Dems are elected in 2008 expect the civil liberties concerned to be restricted to the Right-just like in the 1990s.
Better check on that Cesar.The law I cite permitted the collection of data on international calls without resorting to the FISA star chamber.
They permitted collection of data on international calls made on foreign soil. Not domestic to international calls, like they can do now. And it turns out, even domestic-domestic calls are being tapped anyway.
Do you expect any future Democrat administration to forego the powers sought and obtained by this or any previous administration?
Probably not, but I'd be willing theres a bigger chance of Richardson or Kucinnuch giving up those powers than Giuliani or Thompson.
After the excesses of Nixon, executive power was curbed substantially for awhile, until 9/11 changed everything of course.
iih,
How many released gitmo detainees have been re-captured in Afghanistan? Yes we grabbed some of the wrong people- and we let them go along with a lot of the people we should have killed or kept in detention.
SIV-
What about Presidential "signing statements" where a President can basically sign a law and then say he can override it at whim? The right wing has shilled hard when Bush uses them, what do you think about those powers?
Oh, and do you think the Iraq War is great and the "Surge is working" or do you think it was flawed from the beginning and its time to get the hell out?
So do you think 9/11 should have changed anything? Some restriction of civil liberties for foreign nationals and enemy combatants is justified in the conduct of war.I am much more concerned with giving law enforcement and the judiciary their whole Christmas list of authority
which happened as much under the previous administration during peacetime.Your outrage is not wrong but somewhat misplaced and unconciously partisan if you think Bush is so much worse than his predecessors.
Signing statements and executive orders ar used for good or ill depending on your political ideology and the matter in which they are used.
They aren't some new authority granted under the "Patriot Act".
So do you think 9/11 should have changed anything?
No, I think the federal government was plenty powerful before. It was incompetence of the highest order, not lack of power, which allowed 9/11 to happen.
I am much more concerned with giving law enforcement and the judiciary their whole Christmas list of authority
which happened as much under the previous administration during peacetime.
A "war" (especially one that never ends) is an easy justification for them to get powers undreamed of in peacetime. The most egregious violations of civil liberties have always occoured during war. War is the health of the state.
They aren't some new authority granted under the "Patriot Act".
They have nothing to do with the Patriot Act, correct. But Bush has used more signing statements than all his predecessors combined, and used them not as an administrative technicality but to actually flout entire laws.
If you think Bush's use of signing statements aren't at all different from his predecessors, please read this article by James Bovard.
SIV:
The problem is not what the president can do now. It is what future presidents (on either side) can do based on the current precedent. Here is something that I copy/paste from an older thread. Listen to this interview. I think you really ought to.
One of the scary direct consequences of 9/11 is unrestricted executive power, which is one of the reasons many think the "terrorists won" (at least in part). I heard parts of an excellent interview on NPR's Fresh Air with Charlie Savage. A must hear if you hadn't heard it already:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14181701
If you think Bush's use of signing statements aren't at all different from his predecessors, please read this article by James Bovard.
And remember that Bush is the predecessor of a future president. So extrapolate that SIV.
You may also want to read the introduction: "The People's Manners are Now Corrupt" in Ron Paul's book Freedom Under Siege to understand why people like me and Cesar are worried about whether this country is heading vis-a-vis surveillance, presidential powers, etc.
While today surveillance may be used to spy on Mosques, how do we know that that is not the "precedent" to be referred to when future governments start spying on other kinds of Americans?
iih, Cesar, others,
What do you think of "Israel's" strike on Syria and it's purported North Korean supplied WMD/nuke cache.
( I use the quotes as the USA is presumably behind the operation)
What do you think of "Israel's" strike on Syria and it's purported North Korean supplied WMD/nuke cache.
Its completely within their right to destroy something which could be a threat to them. Syria never signed a Peace treaty with Israel, so really they can strike whenever they want.
If you think Bush's use of signing statements aren't at all different from his predecessors
That doesn't change that the power predates him.
Previous administrations were not conducting a war in response to a massive attack on the United States.(at least not since FDR)
Syria never signed a Peace treaty with Israel, so really they can strike whenever they want.
That is what justified our Iraq incursion.And explains why we are "there" rather than Iran, Syria or Pakistan.
That is what justified our Iraq incursion.And explains why we are "there" rather than Iran, Syria or Pakistan.
You do realize theres a huge difference between taking out a military installation in a hostile country that borders you, and invading and occupying it right?
Especially since its halfway across the freaking world.
SIV -
I'm not surprised that Guantanamo detainees have been captured again in Afghanistan after their release.
If you held me in detention without trial for a few years, subjecting me to interrogation featuring "stress positions", sensory deprivation, waterboarding, etc., after you let me out I'd do my best to kill you, too.
Had I been one of Roosevelt's Japanese detainees, I would have been heartbroken that he died before my release gave me the chance to try to find him and cut his throat myself.
That's one downside of mass extrajudicial detention - lots of pissed off guys who now will believe that every propaganda claim made by your enemies is true.
"If the Dems are elected in 2008 expect the civil liberties concerned to be restricted to the Right-just like in the 1990s." SIV-yeah, that's right, while Clinton was in power the ACLU just closed up shop and went along for the ride...
I actually agree with SIV (yuk I need a shower) that foriegn nationals on foriegn soil should not have Constitutional protections, and foriegn nationals on our soil may deserve less than citizens get...But the Bush administration is asserting the incredible claim that citizens on our soil (like Padilla) designated enemy combatants can be indefinitely detained. Welcome back King John, screw you Magna Carta!
I also agree with him (gonna have to scrub hard) that the signing statements is a bipartisan mess. Democratic administrations defended them, though they used them far less.
It's funny to see SIV unable to admit on even this one issue, warrantless electronic wiretapping, Clinton was better than Bush. He's such a tool, it's like the episode on Happy Days where the Fonz could not physically say he was sorry to Ritchie (except SIV is more like the Anti-Fonz in coolness).
What would you think about Israel claiming Colombia had WMDs, not permitting inspections to finish, invading Colombia and occupying it?
Meanwhile, its found the WMDs never existed but Israel keeps 200,000 troops in Colombia anyway for ever-changing reasons. How would you feel about that, SIV?
Had I been one of Roosevelt's Japanese detainees, I would have been heartbroken that he died before my release gave me the chance to try to find him and cut his throat myself.
Well, they could have gone after Earl Warren!
while Clinton was in power the ACLU just closed up shop and went along for the ride...
They didn't, but they didn't make a lot of noise about it either- wouldn't have helped the membership roles and $$$ donations.
Cesar,
Saddam didn't permit the UN inspections for WMDs.Dumb motherfucker could have cooperated fully and been relaxing in a "rape room " right now- or watching Uday and Kusay give the Iraq National Soccer team a "pep talk".
Hey, Earl Warren would have been a good "get" too.
I think if is true that Israel striked Syria without provocation then it's a blatantly illegal strike. I should add that I think if they were exporting Godzilla then that still would not be provocation. Provocation would be something like an attack, blockade, etc.. Actually Syria's pretty plain support of groups that directly attack Israel would constitute provocation. But the "we think they were building something nasty" is, in my opinion, not adequate provocation to attack a soveriegn nation.
I also agree with Cesar that an airstrike is much different than an occupation.
"They didn't, but they didn't make a lot of noise about it either- wouldn't have helped the membership roles and $$$ donations." Let's see some proof. I was a member back then, and they attacked Clinton's administration vigorously. Of course, since Clinton was better on most civil liberties (on polls liberals consistently score higher for respect for civil liberties [albeit not gun rights which I consider a civil liberty, but in areas of speech, press, assembly, 4th, 5th, 8th amendments) there was less to bitch about. But the ACLU certainly did not give Clinton and Reno a pass.
Saddam didn't permit the UN inspections for WMDs.Dumb motherfucker could have cooperated fully and been relaxing in a "rape room " right now- or watching Uday and Kusay give the Iraq National Soccer team a "pep talk".
He didn't want the world to know for sure if he had them or not to intimidate his neighbors (Iran and Syria) who still hated him.
For some data on my claim that liberals in polls tend to do better than conservatives, this is a good place to start. It's got some fascinating data. But notice that liberal democrats easily do best (followed by moderate conservative democrats, then republicans, with conservative republicans the nuttiest) on the issues of whether "dangerous books" should be banned, concern over privacy, concern over warrantless wiretapping, free speech for those "sympathetic to terrorism" etc.,
http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/312.pdf
Cesar:
Part of it is certainly simple Arab pride (it may be stupid, but that is the way it is -- and who does not suffer from pride? Think close to home!).
"Hey, Earl Warren would have been a good "get" too."
Yeah, because when I think of things that have really ruined this nation I think of all the things Earl Warren ruled for on the Court: restrictions on police officer's powers which were until then fairly unchecked (Escobedo, Miranda, Terry) protection of privacy against warrantless wiretapping (Katz), striking of laws banning the teaching of evolution (Epperson), free speech (Brandenburg, Tinker), that the Marijuana Tax act was unconstitutional (Leary), legal assistance for the defense (Gideon), striking down bans on interracial marriage (Loving). Yeah, that guy was a real bastard, eh? Put down the John Birch Kool-Aid fluffy...
For anyone who wants to read Warren's overall record without the John Birch goggles on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Supreme_Court_cases_by_the_Warren_Court
The horror, the horror!
But knowing that government is made up of men, and that men are not angels, I would also like safeguards built in so governments could NOT use their powers reserved for destroying foriegn enemies of America against citizens without due process of law. I'd also like for them not to use their powers reserved for destroying foriegn enemies in amazingly stupid and irresponsible ways... Mr. Nice Guy
Funny how the same liberals who recognize that the powers granted politicians to wage war will almost inevitably be misused and subject to major "mission creep", because those politicians are anything but angelic, are just fine with entrusting those politicians to micro-manage workplaces, and say so on the SAME THREAD where they castigate their conduct of the war -- because those politicians and bureaucrats "protecting" workers will of course be the right kind.
iih: Conservatives won the 2006 election. Some of them have a D behind their name. Don't let that fool you.
Only if you define "conservative" as "big-government, budget-busting statist warmongers who act completely opposite to what conservatives in the mid-1900s stood for".
Mr. Nice Guy -
There are any number of figures from American history who were admirable men, but who nonetheless by their actions created large numbers of people who could have legitimately killed them using political violence and been utterly morally in the right.
I'm a George Washington fan, but if one of his slaves had stepped off the whiskey production line at Mt. Vernon and cratered his head with an axe handle, he would have been totally morally in the right.
I'm a big Thomas Jefferson fan, but if one of his concubines had slit his throat while he slept, she would have been totally morally in the right.
If Eugene Debs had tracked down Oliver Wendell Holmes and beaten him with a tire iron, I'd have to come down on Debs' side.
If, as I mentioned above, a Japanese internee had fled internment and dumped FDR's wheelchair into the Potomac, gotta give our nameless detainee some props. Since Warren was complicit in that policy, I have to lump him in there.
You can have an otherwise decent record, but if you 1) give other human beings as chattel or 2) throw men in jail for speaking out against a war or 3) throw tens of thousands of citizens who have committed no crime into detention on the basis of their race, you create classes of persons for whom there literally is no legitimate government, and who can employ political violence with moral impunity.
fixed this link in case anybody cares
Patriot Act used to enforce laws against cockfighting.
Best state political talk show from the state with the most "interesting" politics Moon Griffon. Anyone who has an interest in Louisiana politics already knows who he is.
Mr Nice Guy,
I grew up thinking Earl Warren's first name was "Impeach".
.
SIV-
Thanks for the link, thats a great example of abuse of power and "mission creep". Maybe Eric Dondero can explain to me how cock fighting enthusiasts hate us for our freedom.
it may be stupid
stupid is a capital crime.
i tend to come down with cesar on that one- saddam sure acted like someone with a wmd program and probably for the reasons cited. it went well beyond arab pride- saddam didn't give a shit about arab pride, he was all about the power and glory of saddam.
but just in the same way that i don't lament someone who gets shot by a cop for pretending to have a gun in his pocket, i don't lament saddam being taken down for faking it as well as he did.
edna:
stupid is a capital crime.
Agreed. But you mis-understand me when you say:
saddam didn't give a shit about arab pride, he was all about the power and glory of saddam.
I did not mean that he wanted to defend Arab Pride (capitalized), Imeant that he had in him the Arab pride that refuses to succumb to unrestricted access to Iraq. He did not *himself* to look stupid and weak.
but just in the same way that i don't lament someone who gets shot by a cop for pretending to have a gun in his pocket, i don't lament saddam being taken down for faking it as well as he did.
Everyone knew he had nothing to be feared (read Scott Ritter's book, for example). He knew that the neocons were out to get him anyways -- so he wouldn't go quietly, which is why I said he was stupid -- and a brutal, bloody dictator who needed to be handled, but in the right way. He played easily into the neocons' hands.
So I would not compare him to someone who pretends to have a gun and gets shot. Instead, I compare him to an unarmed criminal surrounded by police, and who knew he was going to be taken down anyhow. Instead of giving in (and still executed for giving up), the criminal decides to leave with a bang.
correction: He did not want *himself* to look stupid and weak.
Everyone knew he had nothing to be feared (read Scott Ritter's book, for example).
short memory and 20/20 rear view mirror vision. unfortunately, everyone did *not* know that. how many quotes from world leaders *at the time* do you need me to dredge up before you'll concede that ritter's account may not be the last word? (remember, ritter did not have clean hands here)
how many quotes from world leaders *at the time* do you need me to dredge up
Knowing is not the same same thing as saying. One could know something, but say otherwise. That is called lying. Sometimes lying is absolutely voluntary. And some other times it is the result of some extreme external pressure. Feel free to put these "world leaders" under the right column.
I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but someone could get the idea that Hit & Run commenters aren't terribly interested in the special election in the Fifth Massachusetts District.
Come on, people! It's a special election!
Everyone knew Bush way lying (well, there were a few people who worked very hard to convince themselves he wasn't, but the proof was out there).
That's not the same thing as "Everyone knew there were no WMDs."
There's a lesson here: when you catch the used car salesman in his thir or fourth lie, you need to accept that the car is a lemon. Even if you really want it to be a creampuff, you gotta just walk away.
joe:
Simple, since:
1. GWB said there were WMDs in Iraq.
2. GWB lied.
then
3. There were no WMDs in Iraq.
At that time, many believed that the neocons were lying and making things up. And those of us who were against the prospect of war since 2002 simply concluded that it was not about WMDs.
But, still, the objections of many back then was that even if there were WMDs, so what? It was certainly not fatal. Anyone who knows how the Middle East works knew that Saddam will not under any circumstance work with Al-Qaeda. So no terrorism connection. Anyone who honestly observed and analyzed what was happening since 1999 (including, but not limited to, cross visitations and talks between Kuwaiti officials and Iraqis) that he simply wanted to protect whatever left of his wealth, health and time as president of Iraq. This was oft debated and discussed in Arab media and was, hence, inaccessible to the audience in the US. The US media at the time were, well, complicit (otherwise they would loose their jobs if they dared contradict the then-popular president).
wow, so chirac, schroeder, blair, putin were all complicit with bush? who'da known that they were all skull and bones?
is it possible, just possible, even 1% possible, that saddam put on such a good job of pretending to have wmds (and remember, at one time there certainly were wmds there, as a few hundred thousand people would attest if they weren't dead and all), that these heads of state may have been uncertain about wmd capability, and might believe that in case of a reasonable uncertainty, it is best to proceed on the assumption that they were there or being developed? especially in the face of the extravagant inspection shell game?
as for things often discussed in arab media, can you name one crackpot conspiracy theory that hasn't been widely discussed there? there is a semitic tendency toward drama-queen-ism and conspiracy mongering- my tribe isn't exactly immune to this... 😉
iih,
Your reasoning is faulty.
The LAPD said OJ Simpson killed two people.
The LAPD lied.
But OJ Simpson really did kill two people. There is such a thing as framing a guilty man.
edna,
There are too many documented instances of the Bush administration hyping the intel - for example, by stripping the qualifiers and warnings the CIA analysts included, and presenting extremely tenuous conclusions as definitive statement - for your "honest mistake" theory to hold water.
chirac, schroeder, blair, putin
Only blair was. Not the others. Europe and Russia were against the war for goodness sake. They were in love with saddam, but they resisted the war. Or did you forget the whole "French fries" and the old/new Europe thing?
as for things often discussed in arab media, can you name one crackpot conspiracy theory that hasn't been widely discussed there? there is a semitic tendency toward drama-queen-ism and conspiracy mongering- my tribe isn't exactly immune to this... 😉
Sure 🙂
But these were not conspiracy theory. Say what you want about Al-Jazeera (and they are mean -- the Fox version of Arab media if you will), but higher level meetings and reconciliation efforts were happening between Iraq and the other Arab countries, especially Kuwait and KSA. I can try to fetch the news reports from Al-Jazeera and a couple of Egyptian papers if you want, but it is not going to be easy finding them now. And I am not escaping you.
joe:
No. Your example is different from the Iraq/wmd thing. Let me rephrase more explicitly (I do not mean to say that he lied in general):
since:
1. GWB said there were WMDs in Iraq.
2. GWB lied about wmds (which is what many people exected since saddam was framed)
then
3. There were no WMDs in Iraq.
Of course it is silly to say:
They were in love with saddam,
So here is the correction:
They were NOT in love with saddam,
iih,
The problem with your syllogism is that "about WMDs in Iraq" is too broad to be meaningful.
He lied about, for example, Saddam having WMDs that posed a short-term threat to us. He lied about the aluminum tubes and pilotless drones and trailer o' doom. He lied about Saddam and al Qaeda being allies.
On the other hand, he was not lying when he said that Saddam had evaded UN inspections. He did not lie when he said that Saddam was refusing to cooperate with inspectors (or, not entirely. He made truthful and untruthful stattements). He did not lie when he said that Saddam still desired a WMD aresenal.
None of the lies Bush told, if falsified, demonstrate that Saddam had WMDs. Just as none of the lies Mark Fuhrman told, when falsified, proved that OJ Simpson was innocent.
joe:
Sure, but that is just playing with and refining the words. And we are not in disagreement, but the overall outcome is what I tried to summarize in my "since 1,2 then 3" argument. But look, you may have been suspicious or not, most Americans fell into GWB's lies. However, many of my American friends (especially Arab Americans) and I who "felt/knew" that it was a setup and, while we did not exactly know what the neocons were after (oil was an obvious one, though there were others who thought that might be too naive), but they knew that
1. they were after something that is ultimately sinister (e.g., oil, set the stage for a wider conflict that involves Iran -- sinister because it would have involved the death and killing of many innocents in Iraq itself), and
2. they knew how sensitive the situation in Iraq was and how violence would engulf the country without, ironically, the iron fist of a dictator who, despite being brutal (and no one was saying that that was acceptable), was holding things together from descending into utter chaos. This is not in defense of Saddam, but in defense of the alternatives that were not given a chance (e.g., some form of reconciliation).
Europe and Russia were against the war for goodness sake.
they were indeed against the war, but they made public statements that they believed that saddam had wmds; they just thought that it could be handled diplomatically (translation: they were making boatloads of money, personally, from their support of the regime and didn't want the honeypot to dry up).
edna:
Actually, I no longer remember how we got talk about this or what the original point of discussion was, but...
So to say the least, they were complicit, dirty handed, and hypocritical. Despite all this, as I mentioned in my original post -- there were those of us who knew that it clearly a set, that even if saddam had wmds it was not worth all the chaos because he presented no clear and present danger, and that, as greenspan just declared-then-got-attached-then-retracted it was all about oil (or at least big part of it). That too was a conspiracy theory whenever Arabs invoked oil as a reason to attack Iraq. Of course you can probably guess what the other one was, though Mearsheimer and Walt would not concede that it was not a conspiracy... but that is for another thread probably (one that I would not want to engage in by the way 🙂 ). So lets conclude this one for now.
just one parting shot. of course it was all about oil. that's the only reason anyone in the world gives a flying intercourse about the middle east. take away oil and saudi arabia is a third world desert. iraq and the gulf states as well.
ok, now you can turn the lights off and lock the door.