Checking in with Britain's Conservative Party

What's the news in Margaret Thatcher's party?

Every 16-year-old will be expected to devote their summer to "patriotic" national service, under radical proposals being launched by David Cameron [leader of the Conservative Party] today.

School leavers would be encouraged to join six-week projects such as military training, working with the elderly and even travelling overseas to help in Third World countries.

It's encouragement, not requirement. But in the UK's center-right party libertarianism is giving way to Baden-Powell-ism.

Comments

[jkp]

"The role of David Cameron is now being played by Daniel Ortega."

[Episiarch]

Well, the role of libertarianism in the Tory party has been dead for a long time. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but the Tories are almost identical to NuLabour.

No party in the UK is remotely libertarian.

[Jennifer]

Rule, Britannia! Britannia rule the waves
Britons never shall be slaves.

[Seamus]

The Tories were never particularly libertarian, but at least they didn't use to be advocates of Maoist "serve the people" programs.

[Jennifer]

Make that:

"Britons never, never, never shall be slaves!
Unless they are of age sixteen
But that's not slavery
because we call it something different."

[tarran]

I wonder how any Briton can sing "Rule Britannia" with a straight face anymore, particularly that bit about "Britons will never, never, never be slaves"

[tarran]

Damn! Jennifer beat me to it! 🙂

[Jennifer]

Gotta be quick to catch me, Tarran.

[Doctor Duck]

I wonder how any Briton can sing "Rule Britannia" with a straight face...

Particularly that bit about "rules the waves"

[Episiarch]

Britons don't sing "Rule Britannia" any more, dude. They sing "Cool Britannia", on the direction of Tony Blair.

[John]

Why don't they just combine this with that apalling carbon offset program the Gordon Brown is buying from. You know the one where part of the program is to encourage poor Indian farmers to use giant hampster wheels to pump water rather than diesel pumps? Let the youth of Britian walk on giant hampster wheels so that celbrities and politicians can fly in private planes to crusade about global warming conscience free!!

[Michael Pack]

Trying to compare British or western european parties to American versions is futile.Most people that vote democrat in this country would be considreed right wing.Classical liberals such as myself hardly exsist,if at all.

[Dan T.]

It's somewhat offensive to compare anything going on in Britian right now to slavery.

Even if they went to some sort of compulsive national service plan for all citizens it would still be a pretty inappropriate analogy.

[John]

Michael,

John Derbyshire published a letter from a reader about how Brits keep immigrating because of the crime, taxes and regulation in Britain only to come to America and be the bluest Democrats possible, fouling this country with the same nanny state socialism that they were allegedly fleeing when they left the UK. Today rather than sending out earnest Victorians out into the world to build nations, Britain sends out budding socialists to ruin them.

[Michael Pack]

John,the Mexicans are fleeing the same thing yet are generally hard working and self supporting.Maybe the fact Brits haven't faced the same conditions since the time of Dickens has something to do with there expectations.

[John]

"the Mexicans are fleeing the same thing yet are generally hard working and self supporting."

Interestingly, the Brits who come here like most immigrants are very hard working as well. They just vote for the same awful policies that drove them out of the UK. Mexicans are the same way. Hang around a group of immigrants sometime and you will hear lots about how wonderful Mexico is and how much better it is than the US. How that view fits with their desire to flee Mexico and live here, I haven't ever figured out.

[Hugh Akston]

Dan T.

It is diffcult to make the argument that all government compulsion is equivalent to slavery, but conscription or compulsory service has deep implications about the nature of self-ownership in a society.

If having the legal right to compel someone else to act against their will (absent the conviction of a crime) doesn't qualify as slavery, I'd be curious to know just what it takes.

[shecky]

There seems to be more public schools requiring "public service" as requirement for graduation. Around here, it seems they picked up that idea from the local Catholic schools.

[John]

Shecky,

That and colleges are hitting on that as an entrance requirement. Who cares if you can read, write or think, as long as daddy had the money to send you to India to help poor farmers with their carbon offsetting hampster wheels, you are in. What a crock.

[Michael Pack]

John,a Mexican friend of mine said'You know why I come here,you get to keep what you earn'.He love's this country and so do his employees[mostly family].That's what I based my comment on,and their food and service is great.

[Syloson of Samos]

Doctor Duck,

Britain has a smaller active surface fleet than India and France these days. I wonder what Nelson would think of that.

[:-]

How sad. The Brit "Conservatives" make American Democrats look like John Birchers. I suppose we should count our blessings. In a lesser of two evils sort of way.

[Rhywun]

Hang around a group of immigrants sometime and you will hear lots about how wonderful Mexico is and how much better it is than the US.

I'm sure they find certain aspects of the homeland better. If they declared every single thing was better then I'd agree they're loons, but I have a feeling that is not what they're saying.

[Dan T.]

Dan T.

It is diffcult to make the argument that all government compulsion is equivalent to slavery, but conscription or compulsory service has deep implications about the nature of self-ownership in a society.

I'd say that it's difficult to imagine that you could have a society without some measure of compulsory service. In America, we're not actually compelled to perform such services ourselves, but we do pay taxes in order to pay others to perform them.

Basically, living in civilization does require people to do things they'd rather not do. But at least in what we commonly call a "free" society people are not totally subjected to being compelled to always do things they'd rather not, whereas a slave is.

If having the legal right to compel someone else to act against their will (absent the conviction of a crime) doesn't qualify as slavery, I'd be curious to know just what it takes.

IMO, slavery is when an individual is under complete (or near-complete) submission to another individual or organization. The fact that I can be compelled to not drive through red lights hardly makes me a slave.

[sixstring]

"But in the UK's center-right party libertarianism is giving way to Baden-Powell-ism."

I don't get it.

[Jennifer]

Basically, living in civilization does require people to do things they'd rather not do.

No, for the most part living in civilization requires you to NOT do things you might wish to, in order to protect the rights of others. Being told "you are not allowed to steal another person's property" is not slavery. Being told "you are required to work for the benefit of another person" is.

[dhex]

but I have a feeling that is not what they're saying.

oddly enough, yeah.

i mean c'mon john, there's no place like home...

...like home
...like home
...home
...home
...

[Dan T.]

Being told "you are not allowed to steal another person's property" is not slavery. Being told "you are required to work for the benefit of another person" is.

Okay, so if I work to pay taxes to fund the police to protect your property, that's slavery?

I don't think any reasonable person would agree with that.

[Doctor Duck]

I wonder what Nelson would think of that

He'd be uphauled.

Unless you mean Ozzie Nelson. He'd be mildly ('darn it') upset.

[ChrisO]

I don't get it.

He founded the Boy Scouts in England around the turn of the 20th Century. I don't believe he thought they should be mandatory, however.

Somehow, the Cameron Youth doesn't have much of a ring to it. Do the Tories intentionally shoot themselves in the foot these days? One wonders.

BTW, the Tories were never libertarian. That would be the Liberal Party. The Tories were strong proponents of monarchy and empire in the old days. Now, they seem to be in a race with Labour to see who can propose the biggest nanny state. And the remnant of the Liberals isn't much better.

[BakedPenguin]

How could prog-rock expert Weigel miss this headline?
"If I Were Britannia, I'd Waive the Rules" Budgie, 1973.

[BakedPenguin]

Basically, living in civilization does require people to do things they'd rather not do.

No, for the most part living in civilization requires you to NOT do things you might wish to, in order to protect the rights of others

Social contract theory, meet natural rights. Now you two be sure and play nice...

[ChrisO]

How could prog-rock expert Weigel miss this headline?

Isn't Weigel a little young to be a "prog rock expert." I mean, even if you don't remember "Tales from Topographic Oceans," you should at least be able to remember the horror of "90125" in order to call yourself such a thing. Maybe I'm just getting old. 🙂

[Rhywun]

the horror of "90125"

I actually like that AND the old stuff. The album after that sucked, though.

[BakedPenguin]

ChrisO - You could be right. I was going off the fact the guy knew who "Van De Graff Generator" was. I dealt in used vinyl for a short time in the early 80's, and I think I'd seen one of their albums, ever.

To me, 90125 was an obvious attempt (success, really) at a commercial album. I thought it was pretty meh at the time, and haven't changed my opinion of it since. I don't even remember the album they put out after that.

[Dave Weigel]

I don't even remember the album they put out after that.

Big Generator. It wasn't very good - the same poppy sound but with fewer hooks and a sort of failed theme.

I like 90125, although "Leave It" inspired one of the all-time worst music videos. Genesis were the only prog survivalists who "got" rock videos.

[prolefeed]

It's somewhat offensive to compare anything going on in Britian right now to slavery.

Even if they went to some sort of compulsive national service plan for all citizens it would still be a pretty inappropriate analogy.

So, Dan T., your theory is that if the government conscripts you and forces you to do a job you don't want to do for several years, it's not slavery because a) it's temporary, not for your entire life b) they (presumably) will pay you some token amount in wages c) no whips would be used (this year) and d) they can't sell your chillrun down the river?

If they didn't pay wages, just room and board, would it then be slavery? How much of your liberty must the government take away before you'd feel put upon enough to call it slavery?

Do you feel the draft was not a form of slavery?

[prolefeed]

Okay, so if I work to pay taxes to fund the police to protect your property, that's slavery?

I don't think any reasonable person would agree with that.

I guess I'm an unreasonable person, Dan T., because I believe it's a form of slavery / serfdom for me to be compelled, under the threat of incarceration, to pay for someone else's law enforcement privileges, or schooling, or anything else whatsoever. Prettying it up by calling it taxation, and saying its OK because almost everyone appears to be OK with this looting, doesn't make it any less of a form of serfdom.

[Pig Mannix]

Okay, so if I work to pay taxes to fund the police to protect your property, that's slavery?

I don't think any reasonable person would agree with that.

Call me unreasonable.

Of course, there's taxes and there's taxes. An income tax is compulsion, you're forced to contribute involuntarily under any circumstances. A sales tax, OTOH, is voluntary - if you feel strongly enough about not paying the tax, you can avoid the taxed purchase, or at least make it in a jurisdiction where the tax isn't applicable.

I would agree that a.) some form of taxation will always be a necessary evil, and b.) not all forms of taxation are necessarily slavery.

[BakedPenguin]

I like 90125, although "Leave It" inspired one of the all-time worst music videos. Genesis were the only prog survivalists who "got" rock videos.

I only remember the video for "Owner of Lonely Heart" which I thought was meh, like the song. I have dialup, I can't see the video for "Leave It". I'll take your word for it's crappiness, though. Too bad, as I thought that was the best song on the album.

From what I've heard about the theatrics of early Genesis shows, it's not too surprising they'd have better videos for the time. Same idea with The Tubes.

[Episiarch]

How could prog-rock expert Weigel miss this headline?

I'm still waiting for him to use Hawkwind references in a headline. "We Took the Wrong Step Years Ago" could be used in so many places...

[Proudhon\'s Puppy]

Taxation is slavery in the same way that property is theft.

That is, it's not unless you're a hopeless ideologue.

[BakedPenguin]

Episiarch - I've thought about lines from the original Motorhead song. I guess Sullum does all of the articles that could use them, though.

[Dan T.]

I guess I'm an unreasonable person, Dan T., because I believe it's a form of slavery / serfdom for me to be compelled, under the threat of incarceration, to pay for someone else's law enforcement privileges, or schooling, or anything else whatsoever. Prettying it up by calling it taxation, and saying its OK because almost everyone appears to be OK with this looting, doesn't make it any less of a form of serfdom.

So since you benefit from taxation of others, does this make you a slaveholder?

[Matthew J. Brown]

Ah, the modern Conservative party - dedicated to keeping Labour in power despite everything, by remaining too stupid to ever win an election for town dog-catcher.

The most unfortunate thing about Margaret Thatcher was that she left no lasting legacy, no heirs. Major was a limp wet fish, and nobody since has been worth anything. Perhaps it was her paranoia about palace coups, which led her to not favor the truly able, which brought this about - a justifiable paranoia, since that was what brought her down in the end.

[ChrisO]

I like 90125, although "Leave It" inspired one of the all-time worst music videos. Genesis were the only prog survivalists who "got" rock videos.

Of course, by that time Genesis wasn't actually prog anymore. Sad, because the first couple of albums with Collins on vocals are prog classics in my book. And the guy was a monster drummer in Brand X.

I don't totally hate on "90125", actually. But "Drama" blows it away. "Big Generator" consisted of some undeveloped good ideas.

I only remember the video for "Owner of Lonely Heart" which I thought was meh, like the song.

The original edit of the video was better. That lasted a few months on MTV, before they screwed it up.

[ChrisO]

The most unfortunate thing about Margaret Thatcher was that she left no lasting legacy, no heirs.

The British parliamentary system seems inclined toward that. Look at how difficult it was for the Tories to replace Churchill. And I suspect that Labour will see similar difficulties sustaining Blair's success. Gordon Brown is quite popular right now, but then so was John Major for awhile. I don't see it being long-term, though.

[Tristan Mills]

The Tories flirted with some liberal/libertarian ideas under Thatcher. Churchill was also previously a Liberal and the Liberal Unionists and National Liberals did end up joining the Tories, but they are still a conservative party, that means they are not liberal or libertarian unless that's the status quo.

There is no overtly liberal/libertarian party in the UK. Some LibDems are libertarian, some Tories are. UKIP also has some, but overall we have little power (beyond being a thorn in the statist's side)

[DJB]

I wouldn't read too much into this piece of news - it's typical gesture politics, an opportunity to sound tough on the current issue du jour without actually committing to tackle the underlying problem.

We're infested with it over here at the moment - I think it's an attempt to grab favourable headlines before a possible early election. Hence why we end up with drivel like this.

Kids out of control, rampant on the streets at night? Let's create non-mandatory volunteer programs (at great expense, natch) which will only really be used by those kids who aren't a problem.

Gun crime on the rise amongst gangs in London? Let's create an "amnesty drop-off zone" where people can deposit their pesky, unwanted, guns without fear of arrest. Same for knives too, of course. No word on whether planks with nails sticking out them fall under the same initiative.