Annals of Science: Men Attracted to Good Looking Women

Indiana University researchers use speed dating to prove that men prefer physically attractive women. To wit:

…men appeared to base their decisions mostly on the women's physical attractiveness.

The men also appeared to be much less choosy. Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold…

Whole astonishing AP story here.

Comments

[The Extispicator]

I hear from an inside source that the crack team of scientists at IU is getting ready to release a groundbreaking report: Chocolate Is Yummy.

[Chris S.]

Besides attractiveness, what the hell else are "speed daters" (people on five minute dates) going to base their decisions on? Do you learn anything about a person in five minutes?

Great study...

[Jonathan Hohensee]

The men also appeared to be much less choosy. Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold...
This is something I've had a hard time convincing those cultural studies fashion-magazines-are evil type of femminists; guys find the models in those magazines to be attractive, but they don't expect other women to look like that.

[matthew hogan]

All it tests is that when guys want to date a woman, out of a group that they encounter quickly, they pick the hotties over the lukewarmies. Not even choosing a "mate" just a date.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295593,00.html

Now THIS is a fucked-up story.

[Brian Defferding]

Still no cure for cancer.

[TomHynes]

What is this minimum threshold they are talking about?

[Sara]

Re: Jonathan's story -
We learned not to dig sand caves in DARE. Don't do drugs or you will die. Don't dig sand tunnels or you will die.
Something useful came out of DARE afterall.

[Warren]

Jonathan,

The real tragedy is that real-life women use fashion models as their benchmark. Blaming men for women's obsession with their weight and appearance is such a bogus charge. Women obsess over their looks even when no men are involved.

If women are going to chase after some unreasonable standard of beauty, I wish they'd pursue the classic, voluptuous, Marilyn Monroe type that most heterosexual men prefer, and stop with the starvation thin waif the homos in the fashion industry have sold them on.

[Matt J]

In other news: Researchers discover that boys have penises and girls have vaginas.

[cliff]

I tell you what, there needs to be a catagory of subjects which are common knowledge. Like:

When you close your eyes, things are darker.

Petting wild animals is a bad idea.

Good looking people get stuff for being good looking.

....

IMHO subjects like these should be off limits for publicly funded research. I mean come on, we (the taxpayers) are funding this academic garbage. If someone is stupid enough to need a study like this let that person / company pay for it.

[robc]

To me, this was the most interesting part:

"Women made offers to men who had overall qualities that were on a par with the women's self-rated attractiveness. They didn't greatly overshoot their attractiveness," Todd said, "because part of the goal for women is to choose men who would stay with them"

But, he added, "they didn't go lower. They knew what they could get and aimed for that level."

[Leigh]

Here's a few more studies they should do, since they are studying the obvious:

1) Women never mean what they say
2) Women like handbags and shoes
3) Women have no concept where money comes from

(Apologies those who are the exception to rule around here)

[Episiarch]

In related news, dudes will bang any chick over a certain attractiveness threshold. Where's my grant money, bitches?

[SeeingI]

Shocked. SHOCKED!

I saw some interesting research this weekend that proved that chickens also prefer beautiful women. Look out guys - chickens are trying to steal your gals!

http://www.somethingyoushouldknow.net/transcript01_25_07.htm

[Ron Hardin]

Is there any mention, anywhere in the story, of women who let their man know, from time to time, that she's satisfied with him? As a class, I mean.

[Mo]

The funny thing is the most interesting thing from this story is buried at the end. That women picked the guys they felt they were attractive enough to attain and went no lower. While they said that women did not use their stated criteria, it never says what women tended to choose on. I wonder what that was.

[robc]

Mo,

do you really need to ask? I will give you a hint: $$$

[Mo]

robc,

I agree that it is likely that, but it would be nice to see if what the dude's job was or what kind of watch he wore, etc. was the determining factor. I mean they were nice enough to state the obvious for what men chose, why not do the same for the women's choices?

[Taktix?]

In other news: Researchers discover that boys have penises and girls have vaginas.

Even this study has a margin of error.

[JMR]

At least they did not do a massive experiment to come to such obvious conclusions - 46 people in Munich is not too much of a burden on research resources.

[wsdave]

Mo,

"The club is full of ballers and their pockets full grown."

Line from a song.Sorta sums it up.

[D. Greene]

How can we blame this on George W. Bush?

[Rick Barton]

Tax dollars at work.

But here are some physically attractive women:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDv_US-1a7U

and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qwcXwTcorA

[Gary G]

Really? What a surprise.I guess we are in an age of enlightenment.
Was there any government funding involved?And they talk about the dumbing down of Americans,great study.

[Rhywun]

Do you learn anything about a person in five minutes?

For prospective dating purposes, five minutes is more than enough time.

stop with the starvation thin waif the homos in the fashion industry have sold them on

I didn't buy that crap the last time you tried to pass it off, and I still don't. Since most of the leading designers are, in fact, heterosexual, why aren't they putting a stop to it?

[Dan T.]

I think the point of the study is not that men like attractive women, it's that men will say "I like these qualities in a woman..." but in the end only care about physical attractiveness. Remember that before the speed dating session men answered questions about what they're looking for in a date but their actual selections did not reflect those qualities.

[Lamar]

stop with the starvation thin waif the homos metros in the fashion industry have sold them on.

Better? The point isn't that designers are homos, which they are even if they aren't, but that women buy into that kind of garbage.

[DidacticAss]

Dan T- Any statement about a group as broad as "men," other than the observation that they have penises, is stupid. Neither you nor this study speak for all men-or even a majority of them.

[Episiarch]

The reason thin is popular is because of the women.

It's quite simple. Not all chicks have really nice bodies. But just about any chick can be very thin if she really wants to be.

The fact that thin is attainable makes it more appealing to women. If you are not built like a brick shithouse, only surgery can change that. But through starving yourself (get in a little self-hate while you're at it), exercise, and possibly drugs, almost any girl can at least be stylishly thin.

[Dan T.]

Dan T- Any statement about a group as broad as "men," other than the observation that they have penises, is stupid. Neither you nor this study speak for all men-or even a majority of them.

Uh, why single me out when it's everybody else on the thread making broad statements about men as a whole? Not me.

I'm just clarifying what the study is claiming, without commentary as to whether or not I think it's correct.

[Lamar]

Inquiring minds want to know: when a 17 year-old beauty pageant gets tongue tied on national TV and embarasses herself, do men criticize her more because she is objectively pretty or less?

[Alice Bowie]

Yea,

But sometimes u end up with the chubby one

[Rhywun]

Better? The point isn't that designers are homos, which they are even if they aren't, but that women buy into that kind of garbage.

Women buy into it because hetero men encourage it - it's really that simple. If hetero men weren't encouraging it, homo/metro fashion designers would have little reason to design it, would they? (Notwithstanding a certain poster's delusional fantasy that homo fashion designers innately desire small children, thus accounting for their waifish designs.)

[robc]

Lamar,

More. We would never have clicked on the link emailed to us by a friend if she hadnt been pretty.

[sixstring]

I like thin women.

[tomWright]

"TomHynes: What is this minimum threshold they are talking about?"

Going by most of the guys I know, pretty much anything above road-kill is suitable. Guy are pretty indiscriminate.

[Lamar]

"If hetero men weren't encouraging it, homo/metro fashion designers would have little reason to design it, would they?"

They certainly spend billions of dollars in marketing for something that hetero men are "encouraging." Seems like a lot of convincing going on, and not in the direction of hetero men towards designers....

robc: yer got-dam right.

[Frank]

I only date thin women.

[dhex]

billions in marketing unrealistic fashions?

ahem.

[jimmydageek]

I only date thin women.

They make for cheap dinner dates....

[Lamar]

"billions in marketing unrealistic fashions?"

There's a big difference between something being unrealistic and being actively encouraged.

[Lamar]

And I never said anything about fashion being "unrealistic" as if that has any definition at all.

[Johnny]

so a group of 46 individuals in Munich, who would be willing to participate in a speed dating study (a behaviour which must be considered outside the mean to begin with) are now stand-ins for over 6 billion folks?

Even the FDA and the CDC aren't that moronic.

Yes, I'm sure my choices and behaviours can be assessed by looking at this study.

I'm going to go out my door right now, find 46 homeless drunks, give them a twenty to clean my car windows, and prove that all humans drink when paid for a task.

Yea. Sure.

[Lamar]

Do you mean bra straps that use anti-gravity matter to defy the laws of physics?

[lunchstealer]

Meh. He just ripped off original research performed at the Maximegalon Institute for Slowly and Painfully Working Out the Suprisingly Obvious (MISPWOSO).

[Brian Sorgatz]

Dan T- Any statement about a group as broad as "men," other than the observation that they have penises, is stupid. Neither you nor this study speak for all men-or even a majority of them.

All you Blank Slates and Noble Savages should wonder out loud why schoolboys are prescribed Ritalin many times more often than schoolgirls, and whether this influence of the educational-pharmaceutical complex is truly healthy. If not, how can you explain why it isn't healthy, except in terms of different psychological tendencies for human males and females that are observed over and over again in numerous peer-reviewed studies?

[Warren]

Women buy into it because hetero men encourage it - it's really that simple. If hetero men weren't encouraging it, homo/metro fashion designers would have little reason to design it, would they?

No, I really think you're wrong Rhywun. Hetero men like curvy women (T&A), it is the feminized male aesthetic that has taken over the fashion world. Who are these straight men you claim are fashion moguls?

[J sub D]

Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold...

Wow, cutting edge social research has finally cought up with bad C&W lyrics. e.g. "The girls all get prettier at closing time."

[Tom]

"All it tests is that when guys want to date a woman, out of a group that they encounter quickly, they pick the hotties over the lukewarmies. Not even choosing a "mate" just a date."

Let's be honest. Guys really just want to get their wicks wet. The concept of a "date" from the guy's POV is, how much will it cost me and how many times will I have to spend it, before I can get into her pants?

[Sal Paradise]

I'm waiting for the follow-up study : Are Men Willing To Lie To Get Laid?

[Rick Barton]

Count me in. Thin girls! Love the look! I've an hypothesis about this matter. It's said that elements of our first romantic attraction are imprinted in our brains. Well, since 7th-8th grade girls tended to be thin...

Here's a gal who was kinda thin and really cute!

Nena!! - "Nur getr?umt"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtSRlqgp4PI

More familiar-"99 Luftballons"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9whehyybLqU

[DADIODADDY]

I got your standard right here...

body temp > 98 deg. F
opposible thumb & forefinger
walks erect
capable of independant respiration

anything else is gravy

[Homo Fashion Designer]

Well if you starve the secondary sex characteristics off them models do look kind of like very hot boys.

[Lamar]

"anything else is gravy"

That's disgusting.

[Rhywun]

Who are these straight men you claim are fashion moguls?

They're everywhere, from Howard Stern fans drooling over the latest stick-like stripper on his show, to every guy on TV with a waif draped on his arms. But sure, lots of guys prefer the curvy look. Maybe the idea that fashion models serve mainly as clothes racks has some merit.

[Chris S.]

They're everywhere, from Howard Stern fans drooling over the latest stick-like stripper on his show, to every guy on TV with a waif draped on his arms. But sure, lots of guys prefer the curvy look. Maybe the idea that fashion models serve mainly as clothes racks has some merit.

Two things. First, stripper afficionados are fashion moguls? Explain that one. Second, virtually no strippers are waifs. They have their own body problem (boob jobs, etc.), but the 11 yr old boy look isn't that popular in porn and stripping.

[prolefeed]

What is this minimum threshold they are talking about?

Breasts and no adams' apple?

[BakedPenguin]

I'd read another study (probably as worthwhile as this one) that showed women's body types on a scale ranging from anorexic to morbidly obese. To support the "Marilyn" argument Warren made above, the ideal body type men had for women was significantly heavier than what women had for themselves.

I've known guys who prefer thin women. Myself, one encounter with some pointy pelvic bones was enough to dissuade me from ever waifing again.

[prolefeed]

I like women with T&A, and I like 'em smart. Dumb and anorexic -- bah. Let the metros have those fake boys.

[Neu Mejican]

Attractiveness is a matter of taste, but being thin or not is probably less involved that how the package is put together.

Hip to waist ratios, for instance, are a better predictor than weight.

Men's preferences for women's profile waist-to-hip ratio in two societies

Frank Marlowe, Coren Apicella and Dorian Reed
Department of Anthropology, Harvard University,
Received 2 December 2003; accepted 27 January 2005. Available online 23 September 2005.

Abstract

Women's waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) varies with age, and a lower WHR is associated with a higher estrogen-to-androgen ratio and possibly higher fecundity, at least in some populations. Consequently, it has been argued that selection has favored a universal male preference for a low female WHR. In previous studies using frontal pictures, men in the United States preferred a low WHR of 0.7, but men among Hadza hunter-gatherers and a few other small-scale societies preferred higher ratios. Unlike the actual WHR of women, measured with a tape around the waist and the hips and buttocks, the WHR in frontal pictures excludes the buttocks. Because frontal WHR gives only a partial picture, we used profile views of women to measure men's preferences for the profile WHR. Hadza men preferred a lower profile WHR (more protruding buttocks) than American men. Since Hadza men preferred higher frontal WHR but lower profile WHR, and since both contribute to the actual WHR, these results imply there is less disparity between American and Hadza preferences for the actual WHR of real women. We suggest men's preferences vary with the geographic variation in the shape of women who have wider hips in some populations and more protruding buttocks in others.

[Neu Mejican]

This is, of course, an active area of research...

http://www.livescience.com/health/060213_attraction_rules.html

[wayaway]

I like intelligent, strong women who will challenge and mentally stimulate me. I generally appreciate all body types... I can pretty much say I've run the gamut there...

Just sayin...

[Taktix?]

Maybe the idea that fashion models serve mainly as clothes racks has some merit.

Ha!

Men's and women's perception of attractiveness is based on their:

Environment during the formative age.

Certain biological instincts aiming for a more productive mate.

William Shakespeare (even if one hadn't experienced his plays).

Ethnicity.

and Boobies.

Not necessarily in that order.

[Rhywun]

First, stripper afficionados are fashion moguls?

Those were someone else's words put into my mouth.

the 11 yr old boy look isn't that popular in porn and stripping

OK, they are recognizably women but many of them are still WAY skinny. They've got the boobs and the hips but everything else is sticks.

Granted, not being a heterosexual male myself, my exposure to information about what they want is rather limited....

[J sub D]

the 11 yr old boy look isn't that popular in porn and stripping

OK, they are recognizably women but many of them are still WAY skinny. They've got the boobs and the hips but everything else is sticks.

That's what some drug habits do for you. These are not ladies waiting for their big break on Broadway.

[LarryA]

All it tests is that when guys want to date a woman, out of a group that they encounter quickly, they pick the hotties over the lukewarmies. Not even choosing a "mate" just a date.

Actually, according to the article, (The men also appeared to be much less choosy. Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold...) they pick the hotties, the lukewarmies, and the minimallyattractives over the subminimums.

That's reasonable behavior even for picking a lifemate. Whatever your other criteria are, why not start with the upper ninety percent of women on the attractiveness scale?

And yes, that's sexist and not fair and all that other stuff. Just like women rejecting men in the bottom ten percent on the income scale.

[joshua corning]

Men tended to select nearly every woman above a certain minimum attractiveness threshold..

Yup that about covers it.

[joshua corning]

And yes, that's sexist

huh??

Technically wouldn't the way to be sexist when selecting mate would be to choose only from one sex?

How is choosing attractive people over ugly people sexist?

[joshua corning]

OK, they are recognizably women but many of them are still WAY skinny. They've got the boobs and the hips but everything else is sticks.

Bullshit porn girls and strippers tend to be far more meaty then women selling underwear and perfume in women's magazines. And the reason why is because woman and gay men find skinny woman attractive...straight men are the not at fault here and it is fucking bullshit to lay the blame on us.

[J sub D]

straight men are the not at fault here and it is fucking bullshit to lay the blame on us.

No, it's not straight men's collective fault. It's exclusively joshua coming's fault. Stop it now, dammit!

[Akira MacKenzie]

In other news, attractive women will STILL have nothing to do with geeky guys, preferring men with six-pack abs, six figure salaries, and 6-inch-long (or longer) hard-ons.

[Andy]

Warren:

No, I really think you're wrong Rhywun. Hetero men like curvy women (T&A)

I'm not sure what you're basing your views on.. I consider, say, Jessica Alba thin, and I find her very attractive, and I'm hetero. Marilyn Monroe just doesn't do it for me, sorry.. I'm wondering which men among us would make the reverse choice, but the article states that men prefer women that meets a certain attractive threshold, which would include both thin and voluptuous women.. my suspicion is the ideal for most men is thinner women, not necessarily runway thin..

[Rick Barton]

Sometimes I get the unsettling feeling that women who read a thread like this either laugh or are disgusted.

[Realistic]

Women reading this thread aren't going to fuck you, so it doesn't matter.

[Rhywun]

And the reason why is because woman and gay men find skinny woman attractive...straight men are the not at fault here and it is fucking bullshit to lay the blame on us.

Uh, yeah... Women spend all their time being attractive to other woman and gay men. *Rolls eyes*

[Lamar]

"attractive women will STILL have nothing to do with geeky guys, preferring men with six-pack abs, six figure salaries, and 6-inch-long (or longer) hard-ons."

Even if those guys are gay fashion designers.

[smacky]

Yeah, I've gotta agree with Rhywun. I've never gotten shit about my weight from another woman or a gay man. Ever. The only times I've ever encountered any negative comments about my figure (or have heard negative comments about another woman's figure), the comments were always made by straight men. Anecdotal, I know, but you don't see straight men watching Opera Winfrey or Star Jones, do you? Gay men are much more accepting of (or indifferent to) women's figures than straight men are. No doubt. (It seems like some of you guys here feel kind of guilty about that, since some of you are clearly in denial.)

[smacky]

Ok, I'll make an exception: the only woman I can think of offhand who gave me the what-for about my figure was my ballet instructor. But she had every reason to. You can't blame her for wanting all of her dancers as uniformly anorexic as possible. Ok, and maybe some catty bitches in grade school, but that's kids being kids...we made fun of fat boys back then, too.

[stuartl]

Women buy into it because hetero men encourage it - it's really that simple. If hetero men weren't encouraging it, homo/metro fashion designers would have little reason to design it, would they?

Sure men like thin women. Is it remarkable that they like the body types of female pro athletes like tennis or soccer players? Men like dancers bodies as well. Emaciated holocaust survivor body type fashion models less so.

For another surprise, women seem to like thin men. I've noticed that they find pro athletes, such as football and tennis players, and dancers very attractive. Women do seem to like the emaciated type somewhat as well, think Hugh Grant and Pierce Brosnan.

Is it possible that physical fitness makes people attractive?

Back on the original topic, these studies of the obvious can be useful. The recent one suggesting men talk as much as women really surprised me.

[robc]

[robc]

That didnt work, lets try again.

Uh, yeah... Women spend all their time being attractive to other woman and gay men. *Rolls eyes*

I give thee shoes. How much time have women spent making sure they wore the "right" shoes, that went with their dress, etc?

How many heterosexual men have noticed the shoes? Zero.

Yall are doing it for someone, and it isnt us.

[smacky]

robc,

You're talking about two different things. Of course, the fashion is for other women and gay men. The discussion was about female figure and size, however. That is influenced primarily by straight men.

[robc]

smacky,

My example makes it clear that women spend time trying to make themselves attractive to other women and gay men (and I dont think even realize it). I see no reason body shape would be any different than clothing.

[Lamar]

Smacky: a straight man isn't going to go through the effort of criticizing your figure unless he's attracted to you. Just saying....

[smacky]

My example makes it clear that women spend time trying to make themselves attractive to other women and gay men (and I dont think even realize it). I see no reason body shape would be any different than clothing.

robc,

Well, the only reason you could possibly not see why body shape would be different than clothing or fashion would be if you ignored my and Rhywun's previous comments. The difference is that fashion is more of a hobby and an aesthetic, whereas body shape is a distinctly sexual preference. Sorry, but I can't remember ever once seeing grown women criticizing each other about their weight. Women don't give a shit what other women look like physically -- if anything, they like watching other women get fat: less competition. Sorry dude, you're totally wrong.

Smacky: a straight man isn't going to go through the effort of criticizing your figure unless he's attracted to you. Just saying....

Lamar,

Really? Is that what passes as flirting nowadays? "You know, I might consider porking you if you dropped 5 lbs....". And I disagree, anyway -- I've had male relatives criticize my size, and obviously they aren't motivated by physical attraction (no inbreeding in smacky's brood, that's fer sure...). And I'd disagree for another reason, too; namely, all the times I've seen or heard straight guys rip on heavy women, or even women who are just not birdlike thin. They aren't making derogatory comments at those women because they find them attractive. So there's a second example of criticisms that aren't based on attraction.

[BakedPenguin]

(Straight) women may want to attract men, but they do so with a view of beauty that is based on the perception of other women.

I can't speak for the other guys here, but I've gone out with several women who continued to try to lose weight even after I had repeatedly told them I loved the way they looked. Perhaps they'd already given up on me and wanted other men, I don't know.

smacky, As far as Oprah is concerned, which Oprah are you talking about? Over several years, she has ranged from morbidly obese to voluptuous. I've dated women heavier than she looked in the last TV promo I saw of her. Having said that, yes, there is a point where heaviness becomes a deal breaker. I don't think either sex sees a beer gut as a turn-on.

[Lamar]

Maybe it is flirting, Smacky. Remember in Within a Budding Grove (humor me here) how the young protagonist wished that he'd done something more to hurt Gilberte's feelings, because otherwise she'd just forget him?

I guess "finding someone attractive" is different from being attracted to somebody. "Finding them atttractive" means that you believe they adhere to objective norms. Being attracted to them means they adhere to more subjective norms found in the trousers.

[smacky]

(Straight) women may want to attract men, but they do so with a view of beauty that is based on the perception of other women.

I don't think so. I would say that the order in which heterosexual women motivate themselves to look a certain way is based on:

1.) themselves and their own perceptions and definitions of beauty (hence personal style)
2.) heterosexual men and their standards
3.) the standards of anyone else who isn't either of the above

Women help each other look good, and gay men with an eye for fashion can assist in this, too, but the definition of women's beauty is not defined by women, it is defined by whoever is attracted to them -- specifically, straight men and lesbians. Women and gay men just help other women abide by those standards and those definitions. They are more like fashion police than the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not desirable. Obviously only the target audience will decide that.

[smacky]

Lamar,

I don't know, that strikes me as a pretty backhanded way to flirt. Maybe I've just lost the ability to flirt, but I would only take an insult at its face value nowadays. Anyway, real life isn't as nuanced as literature. Chances are, if someone is insulting you, they do not have good intentions.

[Lamar]

"(Straight) women may want to attract men, but they do so with a view of beauty that is based on the perception of other women"

is consistent with:

"Women and gay men just help other women abide by those standards and those definitions."

This isn't about being attractive to men. This is about being more attractive to a certain man than the other women who are trying to attract the same man. In seeking this goal, attractiveness ceases to be something geared towards men, and becomes something more lofty and poetic, and the more lofty and poetic it becomes (like couture) the less it has to do with attracting men.

[smacky]

This isn't about being attractive to men.

I still disagree. I think we have reached an impasse. I do think that even fashion is directed at attracting men to a great extent, although granted it is a hobby in its own right, independent of attracting someone. From my vantage point, it seems like while some men like to complain about high-maintenance women (perhaps a meaningless complaint?), a lot of those men prefer women who are, in fact, high maintenance, as is evident by their finely groomed appearance. (Of course, effortless beauty is always preferable, because that is the best of both worlds.) But given the choice between a woman who spends an inordinate amount of time on her appearance and who looks very polished and a woman who doesn't spend much time on her appearance because she has other interests besides primping herself (but who still looks acceptable) I think plenty of men would still go for the super-polished and primped Barbie doll, all the while insisting that they can't stand high maintenance women or gold diggers. Somebody is going to have to pay for all of those salon visits, and it probably won't be the ditz who couldn't finish college because she spent more time refining her look than she did studying. Point being is that men who complain about gold digging women are probably bringing it upon themselves. But I digress...

Like I said, we may have to agree to disagree. I've never dressed up and then looked in the mirror and thought "Wow, I'm really going to make those other women's and gay guys' jaws drop!". I just don't believe that the envy of other women is that great of a motivating factor as far as the appearance of women is concerned.

Either way, whether we are discussing body type or fashion, even fashion is ultimately about being attractive -- to anyone and everyone. I thought it was a little odd that some of the guys here were so vehemently insistent that all men are blameless in regards to the notion of "the skinnier, the better". No doubt some men are blameless, while others aren't. It just doesn't make sense to generalize either way, but it certainly doesn't make sense to shift the blame entirely to gay fashion photographers and other women, either.

Damn, what a silly discussion.

[robc]

Next thing you know, smacky and Rhywun will be denying ladder theory.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

Okay, I shouldnt have gone there. Ladder theory should have its own discussion thread.

[Lamar]

Hmmmm, sexy.

[smacky]

Lamar,

I was referring to practical fashion, not Kabuki theater!

[Lamar]

Related news: guys are often attracted to women they claim to find disgusting when talking to their friends.

[Rick Barton]

Realistic at September 5, 5:08am:

Women reading this thread aren't going to fuck you, so it doesn't matter.

Don't be so sure...

[Joshua Corning]

No, it's not straight men's collective fault. It's exclusively joshua coming's fault. Stop it now, dammit!

my name is Corning not coming.

[joshua corning]

Women help each other look good, and gay men with an eye for fashion can assist in this, too, but the definition of women's beauty is not defined by women, it is defined by whoever is attracted to them -- specifically, straight men and lesbians.

Bullshit Smacky the evidence does not show this...

There is a huge chasm between what women in porn and strippers look like and what women in fashion magazines look like.

Men are paying money for different aesthetic of attractiveness then what fashion magazines are selling to women.