Here Comes the Ocean and the Waves Down by the Sea

Jim Geraghty points us to Mitt Romney's "Nissan Infiniti ad."

Here's the close: "I'd like to keep pornography from coming up on their computers. I'd like to keep drugs off the streets. I'd like to see less violence and sex on TV and in video games and in movies. And if we get serious about this we can actually do a great deal to clean up the water in which our kids and our grandkids are swimming."

This raises a couple of important questions. When did Romney hire The Onion's editorial cartoonist as a full-time policy maven? And what's "get serious?" mean? We can answer all that, but first, look at the water. Doesn't it make you want to sleep… sleep… … … sleep.

Comments

[sam]

Now all I can think about is Mike Gravel dropping a giant rock on Mitt...that'd be pretty sweet.

[joe]

Incredibly shallow, full of platitudes, but looks great?

That seems appropriate.

[Randolph Carter]

BLOOOOOOOD! OCEAN!!111!

Get serious means spend a lot of money and erode civil liberties. Don't you have the newest edition of the Newspeak dictionary yet?

[Dave Weigel]

BLOOOOOOOD! OCEAN!!111!

I'M! TICKING! TO! THE! DETHCLOCK DETHCLOCK DETHCLOCK!

[Randolph Carter]

"I want an end to pointy objects and rough edges that can cut and injure our kids. I'd like to see a universal nap time to make sure none of our little citizens get too tired. I'd like to see the world as a brightly lit padded room where everyone is wearing restraints."

[highnumber]

Well, the waves do wash the soul of the body.

[Paul]

How far we've come that an ad for someone running for President references only things not mentioned in the Constitution as the role of the Federal Government.

We might as well ignore it. The politicians are.

[gaijin]

and don't forget the floaties...or fill in the shorelines

deep waters = more drownings

[Cab]

Poor Romney.

[Anonymo the Anonymous]

Weigel et al.,

Where's a decent recording of the title-quoted song (that was VU, right)? Only versions I ever found have pretty severe problems.

[Dave Weigel]

Where's a decent recording of the title-quoted song (that was VU, right)?

The versions I have are on the VU box set and on Reed's first solo album. The Reed solo version is pretty solid, but I understand most people have problems with that record.

[Jesse Walker]

Where's a decent recording of the title-quoted song (that was VU, right)?

It's on the VU album. Lou Reed does a decent version on one of his early solo albums as well.

[Anonymo the Anonymous]

Cool thanks guys. Think I'd come across at least two different versions with some major audio issues, probably some kind of bootlegs or something.

[Dan T.]

Calm down, folks, politicans have been saying this sort of thing for decades yet the sheer amount of smut and media violence currently available in our society is unprecedented in human history.

There really is no stopping human progress.

[t. j.]

hopefully, he's just trying to please them and won't do anything about. i think it's been proven he's not exactly a man of his word.

[Pinette]

this reminds me of some really interesting mormon lore about the water belonging to the devil or something. other christian religions may have similar beliefs - i think it comes from some passage in the bible - but the mormons take it very seriously. Missionaries are not aloud to go swimming at all because that's where satan has the most power over man. In the water.

[Frank Drebbin, Police Squad]

I'd like to keep pornography from coming up on their computers. I'd like to keep drugs off the streets. I'd like to see less violence and sex on TV and in video games and in movies.

And I'd like to be able to go into a 7-11 without an interpreter!

[Randolph Carter]

Pinette,
I don't know about the mornon thing, but there's not much of a chance that Christianity has any similar beliefs. If anything, water is seen as the most holy substance. Hence superstitions that witches/demons/etc. can't cross running water, or can only do it with great pain.

[jh]

Pinette says: "this reminds me of some really interesting mormon lore about the water belonging to the devil or something. other christian religions may have similar beliefs - i think it comes from some passage in the bible - but the mormons take it very seriously. Missionaries are not aloud to go swimming at all because that's where satan has the most power over man. In the water."

Gee, Mormons believe water belongs to the devil? Care to quote the relevant scriptural passage from the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon or the Bible that I somehow missed? Because if that were so, someone better tell the Mormon First Presidency to quit using water instead of wine in the sacrament service each Sunday, or quit insisting on complete immersion in water for baptism.

Oh, and missionaries aren't allowed to go swimming because a) they're supposed to be spending all their time on their mission trying to convert people, not playing and b) the Church takes great pains to ensure the safety of the young kids in their care, and with 50,000 or so missionaries in the field, if they allowed swimming, every year a few dozen of them would drown. And nobody in the First Presidency wants to have to write letters to grieving parents explaining that their kids died because a few basic safety precautions weren't taken.

Oh, wait, sorry, this is H&R -- we don't do facts here. My bad.

[edna]

"Calm down, folks, politicans have been saying this sort of thing for decades yet the sheer amount of smut and media violence currently available in our society is unprecedented in human history."

i hate agreeing with you.

[jh]

Edna,

Actually, it's a pleasure seeing Dan T. saying something intelligent and witty for a change. Now, if we can just get the other trolls to follow his lead ...

[highnumber]

Anonymo the Anonymous,

I really like the version on the live album 1969, which has apparently been split into two volumes. "Ocean" opens vol 2.

[henry]

I second the live version on 1969--truly great.

[Pinette]

JH,
It's not doctrine of course. I called it lore for a reason. sort of like religious urban legend. Mormon culture is full of it.
I'm sure you're right about the real reason for missionaries not be allowed to go swimming, and I'm sorry for claiming another reason. But as far as what people believe in utah, as it differs from the actual reasons given formally by the church, it's often said that missionaries don't swim because Satan holds power over the water.(i always sort of thought it was so they wouldn't be tempted to look at women in bikinis)
This is where it gets tricky, like most church doctrine. I can't find any direct quotes from church leaders, but I have heard that one of their prophets once claimed that satan held power over bodies of water. I'm pretty sure it was specifically the missourie river and only on sundays, then later generalized to mean all bodies of water.

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: 61
"Revelation given through JS the Prophet, on the bank of the Missouri River, McIlwaine's Bend, August 12, 1831. On their return trip to Kirtland the Prophet and ten elders had traveled down the Missouri River in canoes. On the third day of the journey many dangers were experienced. Elder W.W. Phelps, in daylight vision, saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the waters."

the words "in power" being key here.

Then later in verses 14-16:
"Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

"Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

"And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

Anyway, JH, of course they still babtize and drink water. Since it's all mythology anyway i have trouble seeing the difference between legends that exist within the church culture, and doctrine sanctioned formally by the church. especially since they have a track record of changing and erasing their doctrine as they see fit.

[Pinette]

Randolph Carter,
a religious studies prof i had once explained some of the mythology surrounding water in Christianity. for sure the meme about satan having power over water is not a strong one, maybe even dead now, but here's where it comes from. When the Roman government was trying to assimilate christian doctrine into the highly pagan culture, they took to demonizing icons of the former belief stucture. They were trying to do away with greek gods and goddesses. Posiedon was the god of sea/water and was often shown with a trident. through art and other methods they began depicting satan/lucifer with a trident.

[jh]

Pinette, if you read the footnotes to "Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.", D&C 61:14 refers to the biblical passages of Genesis 1:20 and Revelations 8:10, so this isn't just a Mormon thing. Anyhow, if you read all of D&C 61, it appears to be about the dangers of this one particular trip along the Missouri in 1831, not a general statement of principles.

First I've heard of this supposed Mormon aversion to water -- unless it's brewed with coffee or tea 😉

As for the "track record of changing and erasing their doctrine as they see fit", other than 1) the prohibition of polygamy in 1890, 2) the allowing of black priesthood holders in the 1970's, 3) switching from wine to water for the sacrament, and 4) extending the Word of Wisdom to virtually all addictive drugs rather than just coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco, I'm not sure which alleged major doctrinal changes you're referring to. Perhaps you could give some specific examples?

[Pinette]

About the water thing, Again, I was only talking about mormon legend. I was offering up the scriptural reference as the origin of the legend, not to prove that it is in fact church doctrine. The truth is, regardless of the official position of the church, that many mormons believe satan holds power over bodies of water.

You already named the most relevant changes that were made to church doctrine.
but there are many, many more.
go here. http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/bomchanges.htm

[Isaac Bartram]

jh

The belief that missionaries cannot go swimming is based on Satan's power over bodies of water (not water per se) is widespread among Mormons of my acquaintance (and they are numerous). It is of course nonsense but then many Mormons believe nonsense that is not in accordance with church doctrine. eg that Darwin's theory of Evolution is incorrect.

Of course, when one mentions "the allowing of black priesthood holders in the 1970's" without mentioning that the prohibition on blacks holding the priesthood only goes back to the early 1850s and was totally in conflict with Joseph Smith's views on racial equality that had lead him to not only be an ardent abolitionist (the source of many of his conflicts with the general populace) but also to ordain a number of black converts into the priesthood. So you get a twofer on the "changing and erasing their doctrine as they see fit" right there. A flipflopflip, as it were.

It was the racist Brigham Young who introduced the priesthood ban. But then if it had not been for the resistance of some of the remaining Josephites he would have made Deseret a slave state.

And the church would be a lot more convincing on the subject of plural marriage if they had not been teaching that "by golly if it was legal we'd be doing it" well into the 1970s.

[TrickyVic]

""" especially since they have a track record of changing and erasing their doctrine as they see fit."""

What religion hasn't?

[jh]

Isaac said: "And the church would be a lot more convincing on the subject of plural marriage if they had not been teaching that "by golly if it was legal we'd be doing it" well into the 1970s."

Actually, if you read "Official Declaration 1" (at the end of Doctrine and Covenants), it says in part "Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws"

This is not the same as saying D&C 132 (the doctrine about plural marriage) is rescinded in whole or part, but rather, that since Church doctrine is to fully comply the laws of each country, the Church will comply with those laws so long as they are on the books. If you continue reading Official Declaration 1, it makes it clear that the declaration was enacted only under extreme duress and persecution from the federal government: "If we had not stopped it ... This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we would have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our ... fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people"

And, in fact, the Church is still allowing plural marriage after death, though complying with the temporal ban on it. If a man sealed in the Temple divorces, and remarries in the Temple, both his ex and his current wife remain on Church records as sealed to him when he enters the afterlife (unless, of course, the ex is so mad at him that she requests a nullification of the sealing and the nullification is approved).

So, basically, the Church is emphatically downplaying the plural marriage thing, but if you look at the careful phrasing of the General Authorities when they are reluctantly forced to address this issue, they very carefully refrain from saying that D&C 132 has been repealed.

Just thought I'd clarify for you ...

[Isaac Bartram]

But note that noone in the church has suggested mounting a legal challenge to the ban when it is fairly clear that in the last twenty years or so it has been clear that such a challenge could very likely succeed.

So I guess what I was really getting at is that Mormons don't really want to live the fullness of the gospel, they want to be respectable.

Witness the way that Romney retreated from the question. His father (the son of true pioneers) never would have been such a wimp.

[Pinette]

I think it would be awesome if Romney "white horse" became president, appointed some Mormon justices to the SCOTUS, then got the laws banning plural marriage repealed for being unconstitutional.
Since the D&C 132 wasn't repealed, mormons would again be encouraged by god to enter into polygamy.
just sayin it would be entertaining. that's all.

[jh]

"So I guess what I was really getting at is that Mormons don't really want to live the fullness of the gospel, they want to be respectable."

The leaders of the Church (not always the same as the rank and file membership of the Church) want numbers -- they want massive membership growth -- and that means projecting a squeaky-clean, white bread and jello Middle American wholesomeness to the world. And reinstituting plural marriage would be a membership disaster, because most Mormon women *hate* polygamy -- just the thought of it p****s them off royally. The few that are OK with it tend to leave the Church voluntarily, or get promptly excommunicated if they're outed as practicing The Principle. Watch Big Love if you want to see the fascinating tension between the polys and the mainstream Mormons. First season out on DVD.

Of course, the problem is that if pumping up the numbers becomes your consuming goal, a few other parts of the Doctrines and Covenants could be trimmed back, too. Ease off on the prohibition of alcohol -- stress careful moderation rather than total abstinance -- and the membership would rocket upwards. It's a balancing act between two conflicting goals that a few dozen old men in Salt Lake City are trying to conduct.

[Bill]

"Incredibly shallow, full of platitudes, but looks great?

That seems appropriate"

I have no idea how you look, so I can't really include that portion of the quote, but the rest of it is so applicable to you joe it is unbelievable. I have been scouring these message boards lately and I can say unequivocally you are the most arrogant individual on the boards. Even a cursory examination of your posts reveals you are lacking in knowledge in most of the topics for which you seemingly put yourself forth as an expert. The amount of intellectual puffery in which you engage is laughable.

[Bill]

Pinette says: "this reminds me of some really interesting mormon lore about the water belonging to the devil or something. other christian religions may have similar beliefs - i think it comes from some passage in the bible - but the mormons take it very seriously. Missionaries are not aloud to go swimming at all because that's where satan has the most power over man. In the water."

Gee, Mormons believe water belongs to the devil? Care to quote the relevant scriptural passage from the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon or the Bible that I somehow missed? Because if that were so, someone better tell the Mormon First Presidency to quit using water instead of wine in the sacrament service each Sunday, or quit insisting on complete immersion in water for baptism.

Oh, and missionaries aren't allowed to go swimming because a) they're supposed to be spending all their time on their mission trying to convert people, not playing and b) the Church takes great pains to ensure the safety of the young kids in their care, and with 50,000 or so missionaries in the field, if they allowed swimming, every year a few dozen of them would drown. And nobody in the First Presidency wants to have to write letters to grieving parents explaining that their kids died because a few basic safety precautions weren't taken.

Oh, wait, sorry, this is H&R -- we don't do facts here. My bad

I couldn't have said it better myself, but I bet joe thinks he could. I am no mormon, so I have no idea about their beliefs, but an alarming amount of people seem to believe mormon bigotry and the spreading of half-truths about Mormonism is acceptable simply because they don't like Mitt Romney. I guess I should consider the source. This site is dripping with an anti-religious animosity that is impossible to miss.

[nofrontin]

Best Velvet Underground song evah!