Republican Debate III: Part Two: Final Justice

8:11: Ho-hum.

8:15: Hunter thinks we can pull a Douglas MacArthur in Iraq. I get it now: He stopped reading the news four years ago.

8:17: Brownback wants to turn Iraq into three countries with a federal capital, the way America will be if we pass the immigration bill.

8:19: In the comments, Lonewacko asks "Aren't the questions Wolfie asks extremely broad, lightweight?" Yes. Everybody hates them, but the super-specific questions of Tim Russert variety make for much better back-and-forth than a lot of the stuff we've heard so far.

8:20: Paul, confronted with two military vet/family members in a row, tells them that the troops shouldn't be nation-building. It's politely receieved.

8:21: Rudy wonders whether Wolf will report the news if Gen. Petraeus comes back with a positive report, then soaks up the benefit of standing to answer the townhall questions: He walks away to booming applause.

8:25: Rudy basically endorses Romney's old health care compromise.

8:27: How will Duncan Hunter's dad get his meds from Mexico if Duncan builds a border fence? Duncan Hunter: Hates the aged, hates America. (I'm guessing. Hunter lives in Southern California. I'll take it back if we're talking frequent Canadian vacations.)

8:31: It's never been clear why Romney is running as a faux right-winger instead of a businessman/super-work. He comes alive for the health care question: "The market works. Personal responsibility works."

8:33: Ron Paul, a doctor, gets no question about health care. Mike Huckabee, a pastor, gets a softball about morals. And he whips out the "what makes America unique is our respect for life," contrasting that with the Muslim nations where everyone's kids become suicide bombers.

8:35: Rudy points out that "we're friends" with Vietnam because we stuck it out and won.

8:36: Paul gets the war question and uses it to rap the rest of the candidates on the Iran talk. We need to "not think that we can change the world by force of arms and starting wars."

8:38: Romney's pretty positive that no illegal immigrants are watching his Spanish ads.

8:43: That's a pretty fat finger that McCain just stuck in base voters' eyes. He tells Romney "muchos gracias" and then calls sneaking across the border "accelerating their citizenship."

8:45: Rudy and McCain are shoulder-to-shoulder on spending as Bush's biggest mistake. Nice, but not really credible.

8:47: Matt Yglesias doesn't want to liveblog. Me, I want to liveblog, but lightning is knocking out CNN's army of plasma TVs and audio equipment in the media room.

8:48: Ah, we're back. The questions are getting exponentially more generic.

8:50: "What does it mean to be American?" Tancredo: "To not be a Mexican." (Paraphrase.)

8:52: Rudy: "Immigration makes us better. If we lose that, we lose the genius that has made us great." Nice.

8:55: Interesting, throwing the question about "how to bring back independents" to Gilmore. "Well, as the guy who thinks moderate Republicans are gutless mutant hybrids…"

8:57: How does the GOP win back independents? Well, it can't. But Ronald Reagan could!

8:58: McCain: We can win by being ever-more hawkish and blustery.

Comments

[crimethink]

Problem here is, it's doubly uncomfortable to cut a candidate off while he's gushing over a war fatality family member.

[jms]

what is John McCain doing?

[My Live Coverage]

Question: Aren't the questions Wolfie asks extremely broad, lightweight? Wouldn't it be much better if he would ask questions based on the candidates' past statements and actions, pointing out flaws in their positions and making them actually defend - rather than simply state - what they support?

Second question: Why am I the only person who points that out?

[Cesar]

And here I thought it was Hillary Clinton who would play talk show host in the "sit down" part of the debate.

[Hayekian Dreamer]

McCain believes Petraus is a "fine general" and that we have a "fine plan." Did he believe the previous generals (Abizaid et al) were incompetent meat heads with no credentials? What does it matter what McCain thinks about the current general. I want to know what he thought about the previous generals and the previous plans as they were proposed. That way we can judge his good sense or lack thereof.

[Zevatron]

Why does Rudy remind me of Mr. Burns?

[Mr. Burns]

Excellent.

[crimethink]

Sit the fuck down Rudy!

[Wow]

Did Wolf seriously just do that?

[My Live Coverage]

Let's say instead of this format and this moderator, the debates actually consisted of a series of experts from across the spectrum - opponents and supporters of various issues - who could interrogate (and I mean that almost literally) the candidates and point out all the ways the candidates are wrong about their various issues?

Wouldn't our political system be so much better off if we had debates like that?

[Cesar]

Is Rudy running for President of Iraq?

[John]

I didn't entirely agree with it, but McCain's answer to the woman whose brother died in Iraq was the best answer of the debate.

[crimethink]

Rudy: "What if Petraeus reports that things are going well in Iraq in September?"

Oh I get it. Rudy can dish the hypothetical questions, he just can't take them.

[Hayekian Dreamer]

Politically, yes, I think it was a great answer John. But it was vacuous as all hell. "Great General" and "Great plan" indeed. What the hell did he think of other plans?

[Kwix]

LoneWacko (MLC),
Yes, interrogation would be fantastic but far less likely to produce fun, anecdotal sound bites. Hence, no deal.

[crimethink]

Immigration's really not a hot-button issue for me, but Tom Tancredo's really impressing me with his answers tonight.

[David McElroy]

Regarding what My Live Coverage is above, we don't have debates in presidential elections. We have political theatre. None of what goes on here would be said in an actual debate. We have (at best) a joint political forum. It's crazy to even think of it as a debate.

[Zevatron]

crimethink, I liked his "Bush won't be darkening my Whitehouse doorstep" answer

[crimethink]

Brownback wants to turn Iraq into three countries with a federal capital, the way America will be if we pass the immigration bill.

pssst....North American Union. Start investing in the amero today.

Lonewacko will be back with details.

[David McElroy]

Oooops. Make that "said" instead of "is" in my first sentence. Darned typos.

[Zevatron]

They should have strapped these guys in...

[Hayekian Dreamer]

Zevatron - And then they should have asked a death penalty question...

[Matt L]

Umm...how about asking Dr. Paul about health care?

[crimethink]

Has there been a single question on gun rights in any of the three debates? Rudy and Romney are getting off easy on that issue. If it's going to come up anywhere I would think it would be in NH...

[JM]

Jesus Christ, these people can't keep their asses in their chairs.

[JasonC]

Mr. Weigel,

LoneWacko has called you a lightweight. Would you say that you're rubber and LoneWacko is glue and whatever he says bounces off you and sticks to him?

[Fluffy]

I think one major problem with religion is that Huckabee's arbitrary nonsensical divinity credential leads him to make smarmy statements about morality as if he's some kind of acknowledged expert.

[Hayekian Dreamer]

It's understandable now though. Once one of them did it they all HAD to do it.

[crimethink]

We need a drill seargent to moderate these debates.

"If you do not sit in your chair I will nail you to it, do you understand?!"

[lunchstealer]

Hunter thinks we can pull a Douglas MacArthur in Iraq. I get it now: He stopped reading the news four years ago.

Which Douglas McArthur move? Refusing to retreat to a defensible position on Bataan until it was too late? An amphibious landing behind enemy lines? Or just getting shitcanned for talking back to Truman?

[Kevin]

here we go again...cue choir...

[crimethink]

At least Ron Paul won't stand up. He believes in original intent.

[Matt L]

Jesus Christ, these people can't keep their asses in their chairs.

Maybe New Hampshire should have passed that seat belt law.

[Cesar]

Wasn't it Bill Clinton who started the "get out of your chair and walk around the stage" thing? Its funny how the Republicans are adopting it now.

[Zevatron]

Ron Paul: GRAND SLAM on that question.

[JM]

Paul stands up and knocks it out of the park.

[Cesar]

AMEN Ron Paul!

[Zevatron]

He hit it so hard out of the park that it still hasn't landed...

[Leif]

wow this is priceless. does the abortion issue really buy them this many votes for them every year?

[crimethink]

Way to make a liar out of me, Ron. But that was an awesome answer.

Chances it appears on network news summaries of the 'bate: 0.000000054%

[Kevin]

WOW. I think that was Paul's best statement yet.

[Matt L]

That's beautiful Manch-vegas, NH.

[Leif]

eh sorry for the redundancy

[Hayekian Dreamer]

I love that before a Republican audience Ron Paul is getting a LOT of applause. it seems like he's been applauded for just about every answer he gave while other candidates get applause maybe half the time

[crimethink]

"Bilingual countries don't work!"

Take that Canada, Belgium, ....

[Matt L]

"Bilingual countries don't work."

Take that Canada!

[Cesar]

Don't forget switzerland. Its tri-lingual.

[Edward]

Okay, I take back every negative thing I've ever said about Ron Paul. He's the only one in that dismal bunch who's making any sense.

[Kevin]

I'm sorry, I don't speak asshole.

[Zevatron]

Tancredo: Bilingual countries don't work? WTF? That Switzerland is a real cesspool.

[Leif]

beligium doesn't work as a country? LOL at moochas gracias

[Matt L]

crimethink,

I own you a Coke.

[crimethink]

What about Belgium, Matt L?

[biologist]

Switzerland, Spain...

[Jerry]

@crimethink
Errh, it doesn't work in Belgium.

[David McElroy]

Well, it's hard to count Canada as a bilingual country where it works well, considering that Quebec is always teetering on the edge of breaking off from the country.

[Zevatron]

Belgians: they're the cool French. Never try to drink more beer than a Belgian.

[crimethink]

biologist, Spain's not such a good example. ETA makes La Raza look like choir boys...

[lunchstealer]

@crimethink
Errh, it doesn't work in Belgium.

Meh. As long as they can keep producing decent beer, I'm gonna say it works.

Speaking of which, it's only the Francophone part of Canada that produces any good beer. Go figure.

[Matt L]

Well, it's hard to count Canada as a bilingual country where it works well, considering that Quebec is always teetering on the edge of breaking off from the country.

But they haven't yet. And New/Nouveau Brunswick isn't teetering on the edge.

[Leif]

someone needs to dig up ronald reagan and kill him again

[crimethink]

We need a separate thread for arguing about bilingual countries... 😉

[Fluffy]

Brownback: "Flying cars! Birthday cake for everyone! Perpetual motion machines! Wheeeee!"

[Jerry]

@Zevatron
Tell someone in Flanders that they are the cool French and you'll get punched in the face. You're right about the beer however.

[biologist]

the Basque cause problems, true, crimethink, but not the speakers of Catalan/ Valencian

[Wow]

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this, but Thompson's hair is TERRIBLE

[tarran]

How about Pennsylvania?

I believe that within living memory there were some counties where German or Dutch was far more commonly spoken than English.

[ornerycat]

Another slam dunk for Paul.

[Cesar]

"I believe that within living memory there were some counties where German or Dutch was far more commonly spoken than English."

They spoke it widely until World War I when it was outlawed as TEH ENEMY LAGNUAGE.

[Fluffy]

Holy shit, Paul just said out loud that we have an EMPIRE.

He used the word EMPIRE.

I think that is a first for a Presidential candidate.

[John]

Paul should have presented foreign policy and explosive spending on everything as a twin complaint.

[Zevatron]

Jerry, I know. I kid.

[crimethink]

It just figures that the "part-time pastry chef" asks about illegal immigration. Theyre gonna take our jobs!!!!

[Tom Walls]

Switzerland is quadrilingual! (Rhaeto-Romansch, a Latin descendant spoken in I think two cantons, is the fourth besides GER FRE ITL)

[Grotius]

biologist,

The Basque are awesome.

[Richard Simmons]

I just LOVE John McCain's new "Metrosexual Hitler" combover hairdo!

[biologist]

crimethink, how about Ireland?

[crimethink]

Didn't Abraham Lincoln want to send freed slaves back to Africa, Rudy?

[Tom Walls]

That bit about immigration was the first thing Giuliani said that I agree with (he made a good preso against socialized medicine before too).

[crimethink]

biologist,

My Irish grandmother always said that the signs in Ireland have Gaelic on them not because the Irish speak Gaelic, but because the English don't.

[biologist]

Grotius, how so?

[Cesar]

Gilmore, why are you giving advice on how to save the national Republican party when you destroyed the one in your own state?

[crimethink]

Wow, someone finally mentioned guns (Duncan Hunter, in passing).

[BobDobalina]

Didn't Abraham Lincoln want to send freed slaves back to Africa, Rudy?

Jeez, if you're gonna get racial with Rudy, how about holding Barry "I'm just like the Lanky Guy from Illinois" Obama to the same Lincoln-was-no-integrationist standard?

[Zevatron]

Romney, I've got a stool for you, but you won't want to sit on it.

[Fluffy]

I'm a little annoyed that there's no online poll at CNN for me to spam.

[Leif]

oh shit my family is under assault

[John]

WOLF:

Oh, I have to let Rudy McRomney answer that...

Yeah they didn't get enough time to blather...

[MajorMarko]

What's up with McCain and his "No movable joints like Jack Webb" arms?

[Tom Walls]

When McCain mentioned Islamic terrorism and said "look at the events of the past two days" it looked like he was pointing at that girl in the headscarf in the audience.

[Zevatron]

Christ, the prospect of a Giuliani/McCain ticket scares the shit out of me...

Well, time for dinner and some wine to wash that thought away...

[The Wine Commonsewer]

....we're friends" with Vietnam because we stuck it out and won.

WTF? Is he on drugs? We ran out of there, tail between our legs and then the country degenerated into utter chaos for a couple of decades and finally, 30 years later our relationship and the country has stabilized.

Contrast that with our relationship with Japan, Germany, and Italy after the BIG WAR. It didn't take twenty years for things to normalize.

[crimethink]

Way to go Duncan. By dissing Rudy McRomney you screwed all your fellow second-tierers out of even more time!

[John]

crimethink:

DITTO! They already had double the time of Paul and a lot more than the others. That's just not fair. Early polls are no excuse to favor some candidates. All that does is reinforce the status quo.

[BobDobalina]

8:57: How does the GOP win back independents? Well, it can't. But Ronald Reagan could!

LOL, I've noticed that about the GOP lately. Ignore your own current ineptitude while holding up the image of a dead giant-among-men as a magic talisman.
Great In Living Color reference. This "debate" was just like a white male version of that "Miss Black America" sketch ...

[joe]

Did anyone notice the sparse applause Rudy got when he talked about cleaning up Washington?

Even after the past six years, Republicans are still quite attached to their national party. They don't want it cleaned up, they don't want to look in the mirror and ask questions.

They think their only problem is not being Republican enough, and all their problems stem from lack of purity. That's not a good place for the Republican Party to be in 2008.

[crimethink]

I'll take the place of the Moose and question whether they were de-batin' or just plain batin'?

[joe]

Speaking times, from Chris Dodd's site:

Wolf 10:22

McCain 6:01

Romney 5:12
Rudy 4:48

Brownback 3:42
Hunter 3:01

Huckabee 2:23
Gilmore 2:18
Thomspson 2:04
Tancredo 2:02
Paul 2:00

That's bogus.

[Vote Early, Vote Often]

A very small sample size so far, but it looks like the MSNBC polls for the debates have Ron Paul winning in a couple of categories. (Not that Paul supporters would go out of their way to somehow "game" the results or anything.)

[libertreee]

Ron hit a grand slam, a two run jack,a triple, double and base hit. He didn't strike out once.

Wolf walked (around) him more than once, though.

[crimethink]

Ron Paul did more with his 2:00 than Rudy McRomney did with his 16:01.

As usual tho, the MSM will act as though he wasn't there when they run the clips for the unwashed masses tonight and tomorrow.

[Fluffy]

Wow. The Paulbots are going to go berserk on that speaking time number.

[Hayekian Dreamer]

VEVO - you're right. How could they even if they wanted to. I mean, the Big Three have SOOOO much more support than Paul, right?

[crimethink]

Dreamer,

You seem to be forgetting that while Ron Paul's supporters are few in number, they are omnipotent. Not only can they control every online poll in ways that better-funded campaigns could only dream of, they also have the ability to make paper money turn into Liberty Dollars by looking at it and concentrating.

[tarran]

I'm, laughing because according to msnbc's analysis, Ron Paul did nothing to distinguish himself.

Let's see was against the war throughout wants to pull out immediately, opposed to attacking Iran, wants to end subsidies for energy companies. Contrast this with pretty much everyone else.

What to they want, him whipping out a claymore and chasing Giuliani accross the stage?

Actually, I'd pay money to see that. 🙂

[Cesar]

I like Chris Dodd more now just because he did that cool graphic for both debates.

[Hayekian Dreamer]

crimethink - shhhhhhh you're giving away our secrets...

[Cesar]

Where do we meet for the next Ron Paul conspiracy summit so we can plan on how to game the system again?

[crimethink]

What to they want, him whipping out a claymore and chasing Giuliani accross the stage?

That must be why they put Paul so far away from the "serious" candidates. Then again, he could have made a move while he was walking around during the "sitting" part of the debate.

And I'm not entirely sure whether doing so would have been illegal, since this is NH after all!

[Hayekian Dreamer]

Cesar - You know, that place? Codenamed: Taco Password: Bell

[tarran]

Chris Dodd, who might or might not be reliable, has more reasonable numbers:

Brownback........7:12
Gilmore..........5:59
Giuliani........12:35
Huckabee.........6:48
Hunter...........7:14
McCain..........12:44
Tancredo.........5:43
Thomson..........4:21
Paul.............5:51
Romney..........11:41

[Cesar]

"Cesar - You know, that place? Codenamed: Taco Password: Bell"

Ah yes I'll pass the word onto the CATO institute.

[crimethink]

Mingia, they've replayed that "lightning moment" about 10 times already. Nice to have the best news people in the world working on this...

[Hayekian Dreamer]

But... but... the... place IS CATO (What, its an anagram...)

[BTS]

Hey kids, look who's pictured on the frontpage of the election 2008 page at CNN! Woo, go Ron

[Cesar]

Of course BTS, I bribed the guy who runs the CNN site with Liberty Dollars.

[crimethink]

Giuliani is on with Larry King now. He's dissing the Democrats again for wanting to go back to the '90s. I dunno if that's such a good strategy...a lot of people liked the '90s.

[Cesar]

I

[Cesar]

Damnit, I was about to say-

I love the 90s. Rudy doesn't, because in a "pre-9/11 world" he was seen for the thug he is.

[John]

In Belgium the wallons and the flemish are constantly at each other's throats. Yeah, it works, it would work a hell of a lot better if the country were divided into to feuding ethnic groups. Same goes for Canada. Anyone who would wish the problems that Canada has had with Quebec on the U.S. either doesn't know about Canada or hates the U.S.

Can a bi-lingual country work? Sure. But why on earth would a country that is not bi-lingual want to become that way? Places like Canada and Belgium have worked in spite of their bilingqualism not because of it. It is problem they have overcome to have succesful countries. Why the hell would the U.S. want to create the problem here? Oh I know so La Raza can have more members and rich people can have slaves

[Hayekian Dreamer]

Cesar - So was Quaddafi

[Cesar]

John-

I actually think English should be the national language, even though Im for immigration. English for breakfast, English for lunch, English anytime....English, English, English. It should be the only language, period. Not only because we would be insane to become officially bi-lingual, but because if people who favored liberalized immigration adopted that position, it would alleviate many fears.

[Leif]

it shows how attuned cnn is to their audience that they put paul's photo up on the front page of the website but more or less neglect him (comparatively) with their mainstream coverage.

i was kind of hoping that the major news outlets wouldn't be able to keep up with the 'new wave' of blogs and independent news sources, but unfortunately it looks like they've become pretty good at keeping up with interent buzz.

[Max]

I actually think English should be the national language, even though Im for immigration.

So you're pro-immigration, but anti-immigrant.

[Cesar]

"
So you're pro-immigration, but anti-immigrant."

Im pro-immigration and pro-assimilation.

It doesn't mean they cant speak it at home. It doesn't mean they can't speak it on the streets. It doesn't mean they can't conduct their businesses in Spanish. It just means the federal govt has to conduct their official business in English, and that immigrants are required to learn English.

At least, thats what I mean by "official language".

[Bradford C.]

I'm surprised nobody's commented about Romney saying Washington is "all talk." Is that when the Spin Room blacked out, Dave?

[Edward]

Ron Paul was weak on gays in the military, though. Otherwise, he was great. What's he doing in the Republican party?

[Max]

It just means the federal govt has to conduct their official business in English, and that immigrants are required to learn English.

What does that even mean? The government already uses English. As far as I can tell, "make English official" is purely a way to bash immigrants - as in, you dirty non-English-speaking cretins had better shape up, or else! It's a symbolic gesture, and the symbolism is evil. And I say that as someone who is, relative to most people here, anti-immigration.

[Fluffy]

Max, I think it would have one primary benefit:

It would pretty effectively forestall and prevent anyone from bringing a claim of discrimination or negligence if an employer, landlord, business, health care provider, etc. only provides services in English.

I can definitely see the day coming when doing business in the US in any number of fields and not providing duplicate services in Spanish will expose you to a lawsuit of one sort or another. I want an absolute assurance that this can never happen, and an official language declaration is the only way I see to get that done. I don't care if immigrants speak Spanish, but I want absolute assurance that I won't have to learn Spanish or get sued someday, because the fact that someone else can't speak English ain't my fucking problem.

[surge general]

"Hayekian Dreamer | June 5, 2007, 8:20pm | #

McCain believes Petraus is a "fine general" and that we have a "fine plan." Did he believe the previous generals (Abizaid et al) were incompetent meat heads with no credentials? What does it matter what McCain thinks about the current general. I want to know what he thought about the previous generals and the previous plans as they were proposed. That way we can judge his good sense or lack thereof."

I can't tell if you are just taking shots or really want to know.

To answer your question here, McCain was deeply critial of the leadership of both Abizaid and Casey(the general whom Petraeus replaced). McCain was one of a handful of Senators who voted against Casey's being kicked upstairs to be Chairman of the JCS. McCain reamed Casey out in the Armed Services hearing on his promotion and called him a failure.

This is all on the record. McCain has been deeply critical of the military leadership in Iraq since the insurgency began.

[biologist]

Max, the government uses English, but not exclusively. voter ballots are printed in a number of languages. if you don't speak and read English well enough to fill out a ballot, I have a problem with allowing you to vote. I don't expect immigrants to write doctoral dissertations on the English dialetical tradition versus some other stuff I pulled out of my ass, but come on, a voting ballot? does one really need it to say "presidente" instead of president to know what race you're voting for?

[Edward]

We're already one of the largest Spanish-speaking countries in the world. Given Latino birth rates, that isn't likely to change. Who cares? You can do business in any language, and smart entrepreneurs are already using Spanish to reach the growing Latino market. Not speaking Spanish here may one day be a big disadvantage, or a big fucking problem, if you prefer.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

...the government already uses English.

You have obviously never been to the DMV in California where driver tests are given in at least 8 different languages. And as my less open minded friends are fond of remarking, giving the Vietnamese immigrants driving tests in their native tongue did not do a single thing to improve their driving abilities.

I think that as long as the government butts the hell out of the language business that English will be the language de jour. It is, in fact, the language of business and the language of air traffic control, world wide.

It is really idiotic for immigrants not to learn the language as it places them light years behind the rest of the populace in terms of upward mobility.

And as the abandonment of bi-lingual in Californicate has demonstrated, immersion is extremely effective.

[Joe Don Baker]

You think you can take me? Go ahead on.

It's your move.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Not speaking Spanish here may one day be a big disadvantage...

Especially in the southwest.

[edna]

i find it amusing that the canadian stop signs say, "arret," while the french ones say, "stop."

[The Wine Commonsewer]

And the Mexican ones say ALTO, which I thought was one of the shorter saxophones.

[Edward]

Edna

I think they actually say "arr?t" and probably only in Quebec and national parks.

When I use an ATM here, it always gives me Spanish as an option. I'm sure it's the bank's choice.

[Max]

We're already one of the largest Spanish-speaking countries in the world.

Yes, but this phenomenon depends on continued flows of immigrants. It's not self-sustaining, since the children of immigrants speak English.

[Edward]

Max,

Unlike previous waves of immigrants, Latinos, at least Mexicans, are close to the motherland. In communities where they form a majority, their children might function very well in Spanish. As retailers attempt to penetrate the Latino market, they will use Spanish more and more, according it a prestige that other immigrant languages like Italian or Polish never enjoyed. As the Latino community acquires the means, it may offer private schools with Spanish as the language of instruction. Previous immigrant communities had parochial schools, even when they were relatively poor. I think Spanish has a real chance of becoming a well entrenched second language here, over time, maybe even the first language in some regions of the country.

[tarran]

Unlike previous waves of immigrants Latinos, at least Mexicans, are close to the motherland.

What the hell are you smoking?

Ever been to the North End in boston? Heard of places like Chinatown and Little Italy?

I have many friends who are children of immigrants, and ~40% of them who have parents who are earning a comfortable living while unable to speak a word of English. One set of parents only speak Romanian.

You know, people have been fretting about assimilation since Ben Franklin bitched about the savagery and ruddy complexions of Germans. It's bullshit. People learn what languages they need to get by. So long as the people already living someplace treat newcomers with respect (ie. don't forbid them from owning property, outlaw their music and food etc), the culture flourishes and peace reigns.

[Edward]

Taran,

You make good points, and you may be right. Maybe the Latino immigration is no different from previous immigrations. In any case, I don't fear the growth of Spanish here. I think it's a natural development. If Poland were on our southern border, ATMs would probably have Polish as an option.

[Bradford C.]

If anything children of immigrants would learn English so they can hold conversations their parents can't follow.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

El Geronimo de Crow used to sit on the porch with his grandmother, who claimed she could not speak English. At the same time, El Geronimo claimed he could not speak Spanish, and he would talk to her in English while she would respond in Spanish.

[Tino]

"That Switzerland is a real cesspool."

Switzerland is a federation of 26 independent cantons, who decide policy. Only 4 are bilingual. Oddly enough 22 cantons chose to have only one official language. They must be racist bigots. It also quarto-lingual, not tri-lingual.

I will let you Know-Nothing know-it-all libertarians go back to sending your money to Latin America (what? You don't do that? You just want other Americans to subsidize the immigrants?)

Ps.

The two other main bi-lingual nations, Canada and Belgium, like Switzerland had two or more languages to start with, and no choice. They did not become bilingual through a process of importing millions of unskilled immigrants who don't want to/cannot learn the main language.
Does anyone here actually have an argument, you know, based on reason, why it is a good thing Hispanic speaking ghettos are building up in American cities?

[Tino]

1. It is an empirical fact that Mexican immigrants have NOT converged to American native levels, unlike previous immigration groups.

Third generation Irish immigrant's surpassed natives in social and economic outcome. Third generation Latino immigrants earn no more than African American, and are LESS educated (10% college, compared to 30% for whites, according to US census)

I guess it is a new part of enlighten positivism to replace facts in place of wishful thinking?

2. Only 61% of second generation Latinos describe themselves as English speaking (the rest bilingual or Spanish speaking), according to Pew survey of Latinos. The English SAT score of Hispanics speak for themselves.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/27848.html

3. Unskilled immigrant households (overwhelming majority of Hispanic immigrants) net cost 20,000 on average per year.

4. The Elis Island immigrants faced no welfare state, an economy with a high demand for unskilled labor, and no ideology of multi-culturalism. They assimilated, the Mexicans generally have not, after 90 years of immigration.

5. It is not logical to use past experiences as some sort of answer to today's problems, when the underlying facts clearly are not the same. Let me illustrate:

"The war in Iraq is going badly"
"America won world war II, even though there were people who said we would not. This proves that we will all wars, and anyone who disagrees is a dark hearted racist."

[Jackson]

Ron Paul was weak on gays in the military, though.

"So if there is homosexual behavior in the military that is disruptive, it should be dealt with. But if there's heterosexual sexual behavior that is disruptive, it should be dealt with. So it isn't the issue of homosexuality, it's the concept and the understanding of individual rights. If we understood that, we would not be dealing with this very important problem."

I'm not sure how weak one can really consider that statement. By targeting par for both "sides", I think he effectively laid out his point.

[Pig Mannix]

We have (at best) a joint political forum.

I'd rather we were sharing a political forum joint. 😉

[ahem]

if you don't speak and read English well enough to fill out a ballot, I have a problem with allowing you to vote. I don't expect immigrants to write doctoral dissertations on the English dialetical tradition versus some other stuff I pulled out of my ass, but come on, a voting ballot?

Two words: ballot initiatives.

Parse all the 2006 ballot questions into plain English, and I'll have more sympathy for your argument.

[Rattlesnake Jake]

My opinion of the Republican candidates:
Giuliani: warmonger (if it weren't for that, I'd like him.
McCain: warmonger
Romney: warmonger
Duncan Hunter: warmonger
Huckabee: religious nut
Brownback: religious nut
Trancredo: racist
Gilmore: ho hum
Tommy Thompson: ho hum
Ron Paul: the best Republican candidate ever

[joe]

So the theory behind English-only for government business is that it will encourage assimiliation? Let's walk this through a bit.

Imagine Ho Tran, living his Vietnamese neighborhood. Ho Tran speaks no English; he's somehow managed to make a living without speaking English - maybe he works in a little shop with an entirely Vietnamese clientelle, near his home. As a result, he lives a very circumscribed existance, rarely leaving his Vietnamese-speaking community, consuming no English-speaking media, and generally not interacting with the mainstream, English-speaking society.

The theory is that making sure he cannot participate in the public sphere - can't read the ballot, can't read the flyers for public events, no translations provided at government meetings - is going to lead him towards greater engagement with and identification with mainstream America?

I doubt it. It's probably just going to encourage him to blow off civic engagement entirely, outside of his immediate neighbors.

The economy is a terriffic assimiliation machine - the vast majority of non-English speakers learn English so they can get decent jobs, and/or pick up English from people at work. But for that minority that doesn't, that bridge needs to provided by the public sphere, and shutting them of that sphere is exactly the wrong way to go.

[paul]

http://www.lastfreevoice.com/2007/06/05/liveblogging-the-gop-debate/

[joe]

"2. Only 61% of second generation Latinos describe themselves as English speaking (the rest bilingual or Spanish speaking), according to Pew survey of Latinos. The English SAT score of Hispanics speak for themselves."

I like the way Tino includes bilingual speakers in with non-English speakers to make his point.

It really makes it clear that his problem isn't with people not speaking English, since bilingual speakers do speak English. It's with people speaking Spanish.

[Rattlesnake Jake]

"the vast majority of non-English speakers learn English so they can get decent jobs, and/or pick up English from people at work. But for that minority that doesn't, that bridge needs to provided by the public sphere, and shutting them of that sphere is exactly the wrong way to go."

First, let me say, I think there is a lot of racism in this country in regards to immigrants, particularly, immigrants of color, but regarding the government providing help for those who can't read English, there are numerous different languages spoken in this country. Should we require numerous translaters in government to help non-English speakers with their forms or have forms written in all these different languages?

[joe]

Rattlesnake Jake,

We should let the relevant government departments, agencies, and subdivisions use common sense, and put out materials in the languages that a signficant % of the relevant public understands.

I don't think the State of New Mexico needs to provide Polish translations on its ballots; I think Los Angeles County should provide Spanish translations.

[ed]

Is America a great country or what? Our political "debates" now have a game-show format, we get bloggers to explain what we're hearing--as we're hearing it--because we're too stupid to figure it out for ourselves, then we comment endlessly on the comments. Woo hoo! Lincoln and Douglas would be soooo proud.

[Ellie]

Stephen A. Douglas was a great debater. But Abraham Lincoln was the Great Emancipator.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

"8:33: Ron Paul, a doctor, gets no question about health care."

Also: Ron Paul, a former third party presidential candidate, gets no question about bringing in the moderate/independant vote.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

"Ellie | June 6, 2007, 11:05am | #
Stephen A. Douglas was a great debater. But Abraham Lincoln was the Great Emancipator."

AND THE URKOBOLD IS THE GREAT 'BATER!!!!!

[Isaac Bartram]

i find it amusing that the canadian stop signs say, "arret," while the french ones say, "stop."

Quebec is the only place that has stop signs that say "arret", in every other Canadian province they say "stop". I seem to recall some small French-Canadian towns in Western Canada where the street signs use the word "Rue" rather than "street" but the stop signs say "stop".

The use of "arret" in Quebec is regarded with some amusement by french speakers I know. It is as though they (the Quebecois) are trying to be more French than even the French.