Campaigns/Elections

Debate Open Thread

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Got some thoughts on tonight's GOP slugfest? Post 'em in the comments here while we're working up our own review of the proceedings…

Update: A transcript of the debate is here.

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  1. Rudy’s a prick

  2. Certainly Ron Paul distinguished himself by raising Giuliani’s ire.

  3. yeah, but ron paul just imploded. he’s not going to live this one down.

  4. Guiliani/Paul Cage Match??

  5. Giuliani’s head almost blew off….I wish Ron Paul was wittier to put down that nonsense with flair, but I liked his reply.

  6. Romney: double Gitmo? WTF?

  7. Jesus this audience has no soul.

    Clap for torture

    Clap for doubling Guantanomo

  8. “We should bring back slavery!”

    Clap, clap, clap

  9. Bunch of pussies
    none of these guys will support torture in a hypothetical situation?

    What if Michael Dukakis’ wife was raped?

  10. This “24” line of questioning is a bit surreal.

  11. McCain’s the only one so far who’s making any sense (God help me).

  12. Is it my own paranoia or do the moderaters not like Ron Paul? “You would cut the Department of Homeland during a war?” “So you’re saying we brought it on ourselves?” “Are you running for the nomination of the right party?” Why don’t they just ask him when he stopped beating his gay lover.

  13. “Congressman Paul, when did you start hating America and its rolling hills and streams?”

  14. Did Huckabee just say that the 9/11 terrorists were “fellow” American citizens?

  15. “Why don’t they just ask him when he stopped beating his gay lover.”

    When he uses the safe words…… Gold Standard

  16. Moderator: Are you gay?
    Ron Paul: No.
    Moderator: Does your mom know that you’re gay?
    Ron Paul: No, she-HEY!

  17. If only Ron Paul could write down his responses

  18. Tancredo: “Bring me Jack Bauer”! You dick.

  19. Anyone else a little disgusted by the clap for Jack Bauer? Not that the first 2 seasons were bad, but seriously? These are the intellectual leaders of our country?

  20. Tancredo sounds tougher than Rudy.

  21. Here’s an irony:

    Who was that guy who said he “shook things up here today?” I didn’t recognize him.

  22. Paul’s Orwell reference (Newspeak) went over everyone’s head.

  23. Sweet Jesus on a pogo stick…McCain’s the only one with his head on straight about torture.

    I, for one, welcome our new Democrat overlords.

  24. And, yeah, it pains me to say it, but Ron Paul really sucks at debating.

  25. Ah! I hate Shawn Hannity so much. Does anyone here not think he would have been goosestepping over the Rhine if he had been born in Germany?

  26. Fuck Rudy, Fuck the GOP. Libeertarians need candidates with more charisma…

  27. “They Hate Our Freedom!”

    The GOP refuses to admit that our past foreign relations actions have no residual effect and sense of outrage on its victims.

  28. I know, I’m a huge Christopher Hitchens fan and even I have a hard time swallowing this “you have to face reality…that we are perfectly innocent and they are evil.” Wow, that doesn’t seem so hard to face.

  29. As badly as its gonna go down with the republican base, its not like the 1% supporting Ron Paul will be disgusted with his reply. It was honest and frankly what alot of us feel but are afraid to say. It appeals on an intellectual, not an emotional level, and its something that no one has discussed because they were too afraid to. Guliani looked like he was about to keel over in a foaming rage, which tickled me, but regardless of whether it nailed Paul’s coffin, it put it out there and people are going to have to deal with it (or not, if the MSM decides to shove that one under the rug).

  30. Here we go… Next debates may have a reduced field because “second tier” candidates “slowed the debate down”. Can’t wait for more Jack Bauer quotes.

  31. libertarian movement set back 5,000 years….thanks Ron

  32. *Sigh*

    Not a whole lot to add: Ron Paul can’t debate himself out of a wet paper bag, most of the candidates are jingoistic bastards who wouldn’t hesitate to torture a “ferrener” if it had the slightest chance of averting an attack against the US, and the audience made me long for the days when Euthanasia was a serious option.

  33. jet,

    If Paul had elaborated on it instead of roaming off on a rambling tangent, it might have mattered. Its too bad he didn’t stay focused and really hammer it home. He was in a position to really put things out there to make people uncomfortable and I have a feeling he would have called the “enhanced interrogation techniques” torture and he was on the verge of saying he’d condone it as president if it was the most effective weapon. That would have thrown everyone off keel, but made a very valuable point to the world and the audience that while these guys talk a good game, they will, in the end, do whatever they feel is necessary to protect the US, even at the cost of innocent lives.

  34. I’d like to note that these events aren’t really debates. If I recall correctly politicos call them “multi-candidate speaking events.” Or some such.

    The whole point of these events sort of events is not have a spirited intellectual conversation about policy, etc., but to deliver up quotable statements.

  35. Au Standard,

    If all you care about is winning, join the republican party and listen to the doublespeak. Paul put it out there coherently and uncomfortably and its more valuable than any of his mediocre campaign will ever do for our cause.

  36. Ron Paul is going to get some serious name recognition now. With any luck the media will actually talk to him now instead of merely quoting the other candidates who disagree with him.

  37. Damn the Republican Party seems to be running on testosterone instead of reason. No wonder they get America in all kind of wars they cannot win.

  38. Damn the Republican Party seems to be running on testosterone instead of reason. No wonder they get America in all kind of wars they cannot win.

    Just like Vietnam?

  39. If Paul had any principles he’d run for the Libertarian nomination where he’d have an impact in people’s minds in November of 2008, instead of becoming a has-been in the snows of New Hampshire.

  40. Yea, the guy who thinks steel can’t be melted with fire.

    I can’t believe I’m asking, considering the source, but did Ron Paul actually say that or are you just making up crazy bullshit?

  41. He said 9/11 was the result of “blow back” for us bombing Iraq and many other activities in the Middle East and around the world. It seems obviously true, at least in part, but for some reason humans respond poorly when you point out their enemies are mad at them for some reason as opposed to singling out people with the most religious freedom and blowing up two of their taller buildings.

  42. Did Guy mentioned he has a blog?

    *Drink*

  43. I can’t believe I’m asking, considering the source, but did Ron Paul actually say that or are you just making up crazy bullshit?

    Okay Eisenstein (not the Physicist, he is someone else and spelled his name differently), no he did not say that. Look at the whole post and go back and look at his insanespeak that Guillinai countered (as noted in the post I made). No telling how long it is before he does say something like that though.

    Have a nice cry or shooting spree while you figure out something this simple.

  44. McCain may have lied about the FortDixSix; AFAIK there’s no evidence the three IllegalAliens came here on visas that had expired as he said.

    And, of course, he also lied when he said that he doesn’t support amnesty. The key question there is not how the dictionary defines that word, but how millions and millions of people around the world will perceive what McCain wants.

  45. He said 9/11 was the result of “blow back” for us bombing Iraq and many other activities in the Middle East and around the world. It seems obviously true, at least in part, but for some reason humans respond poorly when you point out their enemies are mad at them for some reason as opposed to singling out people with the most religious freedom and blowing up two of their taller buildings.

    So it is the fault of the KKKLintonistas? Really? Tell us more.

  46. Lost in Translation,

    I also have a blog. πŸ™‚

  47. So, to translate Guy, because Ron Paul holds political opinions with which Guy disagrees, Guy feels entitled to slander him. Thanks. I, apparently, have to go cry or shoot people now.

  48. Just to be fair, I don’t think we should have sat by meekly as the towers came down around us and apologized for all that we’d done wrong, but if no one comes out and honestly analyzes why the terrorists attacked, we’ll just be chasing windmills (like Iraq). Paul laid it out. His solution is to embrace non intervention, but I think the more important contribution was laying out some of the intellectual reasoning and while I’d approach the solution differently, I appreciate his putting his neck out there for some truth.

  49. I’d like to point out that “blow back” refers to the unintended consequences associated with covert activities.

  50. @Guy Montag
    Nixon should haven taken America out of the Vietnam War; instead he prolonged the war by another many years.

  51. So, to translate

    Does not look like you are up to that yet.

  52. Yeah Ron should have first told Guiliani that he never said that we deserved 9/11. He should have explained better the point that we should be doing everything to prevent another 9/11 and that includes trying to understand why we were attacked. Just because OBL and al qaeda are evil doesn’t mean that they’re wrong when they say that we’ve based our soldiers in the middle east, invaded their countries, supported Isreal in their subjugation of the Palestinian people, and supported non-democratic regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iraq(1980s).

  53. Grotius,

    Are you trying to turn me into an alcoholic. Well, it doesn’t matter, I don’t think you’ve been added to the Reason drinking game yet.

  54. Nixon should haven taken America out of the Vietnam War; instead he prolonged the war by another many years.

    LOL, yea, thank G_d for the Clinton Administration to get us out of there πŸ™‚

  55. By the way, does anyone know which candidate said he would go to the UN before attacking a terrorist camp int he aftermath of a nuclear attack on the US? Whoever he was he was/is a serious dope.

  56. Lost_In_Translation,

    Just a bit of humor my good friend. πŸ™‚

  57. Ha, Paul is winning the text message opinion poll.

  58. this just in – Ron Paul won Fox’s debate poll with 30%

  59. “So it is the fault of the KKKLintonistas? Really? Tell us more.”

    Sorry, you lost me. I don’t know where you’re coming from, so I’ll just try to clarify the obvious:
    1. Terrorists don’t strike at random.
    2. Terrorists tend to strike those who they feel have insulted them, invaded them, desecrated their holy lands, etc.
    3. US foreign policy in years past as involved a lot of interference with other countries.
    4. Given that 9/11 was caused by an infinite number of factors (starting with the big bang), certainly our foreign intervention was one of them.
    5. We can acknowledge that people attack us for reasons without saying they are right and we are wrong. OJ killed his wife because she was flirting with some other guy. It doesn’t mean we forgive him or say “she asked for it.”

    I’d like to live with a public discourse that isn’t limited to two options:
    1. We asked for it and should bend over and receive our punishment.
    and…
    2. Extremists hate us because of our Bill of Rights.

  60. sorry, is winning with 30%. Apparently the media has surrounded him.

  61. Carl Cameron — “Rudy got to make the case for terror, an issue he cares so much about.”

  62. Ha, Paul is winning the text message opinion poll.

    AWSOME! Tell him to brush up on that Dean scream for the Rosie show?

  63. “Yeah Ron should have first told Guiliani that he never said that we deserved 9/11. ”

    Yeah but he didn’t.

    Ron was sounding like the late Susan Sontag or Chomsky or any generic Marxist College Prof.

    Lost my vote (unless he puts legal cockfighting as the lead plank in his platform!)

    Run, Fred, Run !!!

  64. Rudy, Arabs couldn’t POSSIBLY hate us because we’re messing around in the mid-east, could they? Nooo, that’s just some wacko idear, ain’t it? Oh, and saying Paul “blamed 9/11 on the US [and our interventionist policy]” is the same as saying Rudy blames it on our love of freedom. Get off your “I FIXED NY, BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AMERICA” high horse and start thinking. If this is our fearless leader, I’m certainly worried about a nuclear holocaust. If our next president doesn’t understand the consequences of moral imperialism and “spreading democracy,” America is fucked.

  65. Ron Paul is as “sane” as Rosie O’Donnel, Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, Al Gore and Michael Moore.

    Add in Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Quincy Adams, Tom Paine, William Gladstone, Cobden and Bight, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover,
    Robert Taft, John Flyn, Garret Garret, The Chicago Tribune of the 1930’s , the Orange County Register in all decades, Murray Rothbard, Justin Raimondo, Lew Rockwell, Ludwig von Mises, Mencken, Karen Kwaitkowski, Anthony Gregory, Thomas Woods, Laurence Vance, myself, etc etc

  66. Sorry, you lost me.

    Perhaps your selective memory forgot who bombed Iraq in the late 1990s. I am not here as your tutor.

  67. Is there a place on teh intertoobs for a man without a telly to see this?

  68. Add in . . . Lew Rockwell Maybe George Lincoln Rockwell, but I refuse to go that far.

  69. Aaron, making excuses for tantrum throwing bullies in the name of Ron Paul is, well, predictible. Thank you.

  70. Tencredo was great. Athough I only saw the questions about global warming and the terror incident.

  71. Lew Rockwell would have slammed Rudy’s head into the turnbuckle.

  72. Hey , how about that Ron Paul? I see he’s holding up the Rosie wing of the Libertarian party….heh

    At least he didnt get into whether or not you could melt steel with that FIRE stuff.

  73. @Guy Montag
    No! If Democrats go to war, they do so because of naivety.

  74. Anyone have a link for the “winner” poll results? I can’t find it anywhere on the Fox news site. The only polls I see are the RealClearPolitics ones, and they only mention Guliani, McCain, Thompson, and Romney. WTF mate?

  75. Fedge,

    I hope by great, you mean a bigoted, fundamentalist, racist asshole. Cause Tancredo would welcome standing up each and every illegal immigrant, no matter how productive and good for our country, stripping him naked and sending him to walk back across the arizona desert with a half dozen m16’s pointed squarly at his back with the order to fire. Oh, and he’d be glad to resign Darwin to the closet of “Theories that don’t pan out”

  76. “Aaron, making excuses for tantrum throwing bullies in the name of Ron Paul is, well, predictible. Thank you.”

    Uh, you’re welcome? By the way who did you see throwing a tantrum? Anyway, please make a point or present some kind of argument…your complaints aren’t entertaining me.

  77. As it stands right now, I’d vote for the libertarian candidate for president if he got his name on the ballot or I’d write in “Go Fuck Yourself” if it was just GOP vs. Dem.

    Nothing like two party democracy to make the majority of America apathetic to whoever controls the white house.

  78. also yes, where can one find a video of this mongolian cluster-fuck?

  79. Randolph – there’s a pretty good “front page” transcript of the Ron screw up at Fox News.com

    I think the point he was trying to make is valid, unfortunately he didn’t deliver well at all and has all the talking heads frothing a the mouth asking for his head. How dare he etc.

  80. God I love Ron Paul. He exposed Guiliani for his fear-based irrational views on the middle east and stood by it.

    Rudy may have got the stronger applause, but if anyone pays attention to the polls on Bush with his take on Iraq, Rudy got the strongest applause in that audience only.

  81. By the way who did you see throwing a tantrum?

    Those terrorists who attacked us, along with their juvenile comrades who were celebrating the event in the streets shooting off weapons.

    Yea, I know, you don’t believe any of this.

  82. I’m convinced that non libertarians are the most internet unsavvy people out there. Ron Paul is winning the MSNBC rate the candidates poll by a huge margin. I don’t know how many times people are voting, but seriously, do most republicans not use the internet??

  83. Vote for Ron Paul in the Fox News text message poll. Text 36988- R7 for Ron Paul

    Paul is leading right now!

  84. Jerry, MSNBC.com has clips.

    I want to cry for so many reasons after watching that.

  85. Guy,

    Those people shooting off arms in the middle east are ignorant, bigoted fucks, but Paul had a point that if we hadn’t been playing all of them off each other for the past 50 years, maybe they wouldn’t have bothered us. Do you see switzerland under constant threat of terrorism, what about sweden? Rich western countries that have been historically non interventionist have been LEFT THE FUCK ALONE!!!! That was the point, too bad you can’t wrap that around your single viewpoint pea of a mind.

  86. I’m convinced that non libertarians are the most internet unsavvy people out there. Ron Paul is winning the MSNBC rate the candidates poll by a huge margin. I don’t know how many times people are voting, but seriously, do most republicans not use the internet??

    I don’t know about them not using the internet, but after the last debate I can see most of them not going to MSNBC.

  87. Ron Paul is only 2% points ahead right now

  88. LIT,

    Thank you for sharing. When will you and Ron be on the Rosie show for a good engineering chat?

  89. but seriously, do most republicans not use the internet??

    I AM a Republican!!

  90. Rick,

    Adults around the world are asking their children how to text so they can vote for Rudy McRomney.

  91. Guy,

    Why go on Rosie’s show when more people watch “The O’Rielly Factor”. Im betting with our combined forces, Ron and I can send Bill into an apopletic fit of rage causing an on air brain aneurism. It should be fun, tune in.

  92. Rick,

    So’s Ron, but after this, he may be excommunicated. πŸ˜‰

  93. Why don’t you try to get mentioned by Rush? Much bigger audience.

  94. Ron is tearing up Sean Hannity right now – in my opinion. Much better than the debate in my opinion. I think Alan Colmes is going to vote Ron Paul.

  95. Man, Guy is trolling hard tonight.

    Rosie was talking about theories of 9/11 as an inside job.

    Paul talked about the residual effects our foreign policies can have, for example: inciting hatred.

    Totally equal I guess.

  96. dude – is that viewable on the www?

  97. dude,

    He destroyed Hannity. He does much better in that scenario than during the debate. He was continuing as and after they went to break.

    He also tore up Colmes on the abortion issue. Showed why anti-abortion can be a libertarian position.

  98. Totally equal I guess.

    Equally nuts.

  99. Guy,

    Sputtering rage resulting in an on floor convulsing and mouth foaming is much more exciting on television than radio. All viewers would be able to discern from the radio is that Rush was no longer talking, they’d never be able to see the nose bleeding or see the brown stain on his pants from loss of bowel control.

  100. Vote for Ron Paul in the Fox News text message poll. Text 36988- R7 for Ron Paul

    Text while you blog! Paul has fallen behind Romney by 1 point.

  101. “Those terrorists who attacked us, along with their juvenile comrades who were celebrating the event in the streets shooting off weapons.

    Yea, I know, you don’t believe any of this.”

    Man, you are frustrating to talk to. If you scroll back a bit you’ll see I said I was a huge Christopher Hitchens who has supported the war more eloquently than anyone in the Bush administration. I didn’t even say I was against the war (for the record, I am FOR the military spread of democracy and the overthrow of dictators when feasible). All I’m saying is that people should be able to point out that interfering in other countries is going to get us attacked, and not be accused of saying we asked for it.

  102. Reading the transcript, it seems that Paul won that “argument” with Guiliani hands down. He gave a convincing rundown of our actions and their consequences in the past, and said that we shouldn’t expect different results when we do the same thing. Guiliani screamed “9/11! 9/11!” and told Paul that he can’t say what he said. But it was probably pretty different in video than in text.
    Also, Guy, do you have a link to a primary source (transcript or article written by Paul) where Paul says the towers came down by controlled explosion? he doesn’t seem to be that kind of loony.

  103. Ron is tearing up Sean Hannity right now – in my opinion. Much better than the debate in my opinion. I think Alan Colmes is going to vote Ron Paul.

    Missed it! Darn remote. Well, getting away from this Gilmore bore and back to SPEED.

  104. Romney ahead 27-26 now.

  105. Guy,

    Anything good on SPEED tonight? Its the only station I’d have if I had cable.

  106. Paul did much better against the sanctimonious Hannity than he did in the debate.

    So we’ve never made a mistake in our foreign policy?

    We haven’t instilled some hatred against our country?

    There aren’t radicals determined enough to attack us for it?

    No..they just hate our freedom and that our women wear skirts.

  107. The selective condemnation of Hannity is unlimited. His suggestion that Paul condones the torture or brutalizing of people by their own governments is repulsive. This is not at all what Paul is saying, and Hannity knows this.

  108. I just caught the video of Ron responding to that crack about “are you running in the wrong party”. LMFAO@ him invoking Reagan’s Lebanon pullout, I bet that one stung…

  109. Lost_In_Translation,

    Yeah, I probably use 15% of the features on my Cell phone. I think my kids are teleporting stuff with theirs.

  110. All I’m saying is that people should be able to point out that interfering in other countries is going to get us attacked, and not be accused of saying we asked for it.

    Oh, I will certainly let that one stand on it’s own. No rebuttal.

    Randolph Carter,

    Also, Guy, do you have a link to a primary source (transcript or article written by Paul) where Paul says the towers came down by controlled explosion? he doesn’t seem to be that kind of loony.

    Try reading my posts following that. Perhaps you are one of those “absolute literalists” or somehting? He is the kind of loony who says the Clinton bombing of Iraq brought 9/11 to us. Actually, that is what he said, with different words (thus no quotes by me).

  111. Fuck Rudy, Fuck the GOP. Libeertarians need candidates with more charisma…

    Wayne Root anyone? Personally I’d love to see a sports handicapper in the White House…we haven’t had one since Richard Nixon…

  112. Anything good on SPEED tonight? Its the only station I’d have if I had cable.

    Past NASCAR All-Star races.

  113. M – I don’t think it’s out on the www, I saw it on the tee vee

    All I wanted out of a Ron run was for someone to get the issues out there front and center and to challenge the GOP’s tired beliefs. Ugly as it was, he stirred some debate. Nice work Ron. A true statesman.

    Actually I’d like to see him as the Pres – unfortunately it’s pretty clear that won’t happen.

  114. I like my rulers without charisma.

  115. I thought he was citing the bombing of Iraq as one of many actions by our government that led up to 9/11, not the simple and only cause.
    Also, is it crazy to say that the British treatment of the Irish led to the violent terrorism experienced in Northern Ireland and England?

  116. Booo, NASCAR, I wish they would show more SCCA events.

  117. So we’ve never made a mistake in our foreign policy?

    Of course we have. Iran in the 1970s, the Soviets in the 1940s, the french all of the time, Vietnam in the early 1960s, etc.

  118. Exodus as blowback. I like it.

  119. “Booo, NASCAR, I wish they would show more SCCA events”

    Yeah but the only SCCA events that are as exciting as NASCAR are 35-40 year old films of Trans Am races.

  120. Isn’t SCCA french for ice dancers?

  121. Ron Paul has lit a match very closely to a dry fuse.

  122. Guy,

    I dunno, have you noticed their logo on your ice dancing programs?

  123. I dunno, have you noticed their logo on your ice dancing programs?

    Is that the 24 and Dupont?

  124. Fox News sucks. The bold-face lead paragraph of their debate recap says:

    “Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani won the strongest applause of Tuesday night’s First-in-the-South Republican primary debate when he lashed out at Texas Rep. Ron Paul for suggesting that the United States’ non-interventionist policy invited the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.”

    First of all, incorrect: Paul intimated that it was our INTERVENTIONIST policies that contributed to our being a target of terrorism.

    Second, could they have characterized the interaction in a more biased way? Jeez.

  125. Also, I hate that they insist on spelling OBL’s name “Usama” even when they’re quoting someone who clearly pronounces it with a long “O.”

    Of course, that’s just me being picky.

  126. I know everybody is busy with the Ron and Rudy show, but what about the other guy saying “here in the womb,” as he pointed to HIS belt?

  127. Also, I hate that they insist on spelling OBL’s name “Usama” even when they’re quoting someone who clearly pronounces it with a long “O.”

    Because that is the official US government way of spelling it from all of the equal choices.

  128. Watch Ron Paul enter into national prominence where he belongs. He offers a truly honest evaluation of our foreign policy, and if nothing else, raises the level of the debate.

  129. Yeah, I probably use 15% of the features on my Cell phone. I think my kids are teleporting stuff with theirs.

    LOL, and that’s a thread winner….

  130. Utterly useless factoid: I’ve played on that stage a few times.

  131. And what character did you play?

  132. I like the fact that Fox actually planned to interview all candidates after the debate. I don’t like that my Tivo only recorded two hours and so I only got rudy and mcpain interviews. I also didn’t like that I couldn’t understand hannity’s questions with rudy’s dick in his mouth.

  133. LOL, and that’s a thread winner….

    Thanks, The Wine Commonsewer πŸ™‚

  134. I also didn’t like that I couldn’t understand hannity’s questions with rudy’s dick in his mouth.

    LOL!

    It’s something special when humor contains an element of truth.

  135. During a recent USO appearance, Chelsea Clinton asked a soldier what his greatest fears were.

    He replied,

    * Osama
    * Obama
    * Yo Mama

    I’m here all week.

  136. You act like sending Mexicans back to Mexico is cruel or something. It’s where they came from! It’s not like Mexico is a death sentence, its where they grew up, they can’t hook up with some buddies.

  137. I meant they can hook up with some buddies.

  138. Rosie was talking about theories of 9/11 as an inside job.

    Actually, Rosie was talking about WTC7. When her critics fail to make that clear, it seems that they are either being careless or devious.

  139. Paul had a fair point, and the other Rs damn well know it. Guliani’s attack of the vapors was pure demagougery.

    “There are reasons our enemies are pissed” does not equal “9/11 was our fault.”

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