Nappy Dreadlock in a Babylon

The Don Imus moment is finally earning its Albert DeSalvo-like stranglehold on the headlines: It's produced an honest-to-God Emily Litella moment. HotAir gives us this clip from Red Eye (the other "funny" Fox News show, complementing the 1/2 Hour News Hour), where developmentally-disabled pundit Rachel Marsden completely misses the point of the controversy.

MARSDEN: These women should think, okay, "Nappy." Do I wear a diaper on my head? No. Am I promiscuous? No.
GREG GUTFELD: That's not what it means, Rachel! You're so from Canada!
MARSDEN: That's the thing! I haven't heard one person on this team explain exactly what is so offensive. Except to say "Oh, it's racist."
TIA WILLIAMS: I'm shocked that you don't realize how racist the term "nappy" is.
GUTFELD: Nappy is a racist term, OK. Moving on to the word "Hos."
MARSDEN: It's a British term. It's a British word for diaper.
WILLIAMS: It's an American term for a black woman's hair.
MARSDEN: Maybe to you, because you think that way!

Good stuff if you assume that this is Peter Berdovsky and Sean Stevens tribute, a Lewis Carroll-esque attempt to confuse the audience.

Comments

[mike in ftw]

1. Rutgers Women's Basketball
2. Don Imus

What are two things I wouldn't of even thought of this week without a little controversy.

[albo]

Man, she's hot. I'd do the stupid right out of her.

[Stevie Wonder]

Looking back on when I was a little nappy headed boy...

[Rhywun]

I'm shocked that you don't realize how racist the term "nappy" is.

If she's really from Canada, it's not "shocking" at all. I realize that within a gaggle of yammering pundits, no one's actually listening to each other, but sheesh.

(I have to admit, I'd never heard of the word "nappy" myself until a few years ago - and then used only by black females - does the word have some racist past I'm too young (!) to remember?)

[Eric the .5b]

Cui bono, Mike, cui bono.

[Karen]

Odd you should mention this. Steven Colbert had an actually funny parody of the Imus thing, involving him insulting Hungarians for not being able to play guitar. At the end of the show, the honest-to-Jesus Hungarian Ambassador to the United States came on the show and played guitar. Really well. Of course, Colbert is one of the targets of Fox's lam-o knock off, so this just proves that it's always better to stay with the original.

[Sing it stevie]

"I wish" is my favorite jam

[I. Self. Divine.]

Yeah...I also fail to see the blatant racism. I've always thought nappy to be merely a diescription of hair. I've frequently heard black females say things such as, "Goddamn, my hair is nappy today." The whole statement doesn't seem much worse than if he had insulted a white female player, calling her hair greasy or stringy or a nasty hackjob mullet. An insult, but not an inherently racist one. Same for hos...insulting yes, racist no.

[highnumber]

Another post on this topic - excellent, I have my chance to try out my new material:

Don Imus & the Nappy Headed 'Ho's sounds like a 70s reggae band.

[Hastur]

And finishing last in the uptake contest is...

[highnumber]

Who?

Who?!

Dammit, tell me, WHO?!!!

[Cab]

In Marty Beckerman piece there is the following reference:

with certain cliques* of College Republicans... you'll hear black babies compared to bowel movements and AIDS praised as God's cure for homosexuality.

evidently, the article originally read "the average clique" rather than "certain cliques."

That's a hell of a statement.

[Seitz]

Personally, I think describing someone's hair as "nappy" probably isn't racist. I think calling someone "nappy headed" is getting pretty close to the line. Adding "ho" to the end is pretty clearly derogatory with a racial component.

[M]

Don Imus
Has done his time. Is
This story
Not become, uh, hoary?

[GILMORE]

Setting aside canadian understanding of US street lingo...

its worth nothing that the same words mean different things depending on who says it in what context... particularly if you're black or not.

in rap tunes, referring to my 'nappy heads' is a colloquial thing for 'my people', or more specifically, my people on the street...and calling someone 'nappy' sort of indicates that they're 'street'/real/tough. So Imus wasnt exactly really misusing the phrase at all... although none of his listeners probably understood that part of it at all. It's just that he's not black, and if he had been, this wouldnt be an issue. If Ed Lover and Dre had called the Rutgers team some mad nappy headed hoes, it wouldnt have mattered quite as much, or would have been read the way Imus intended it - a kidding remark. but because Imus is a mean cracker in a cowboy hat, it's national scandal.

I'm not saying the double standard is right or wrong or whatever, just that it is. If I read lyrics to rap songs aloud, I'd offend someone in about 5 seconds. The fact that black city kids can walk down the street and do the same (much louder), and not get so much as a second glance is noteworthy. I think al sharpton should maybe ask why the words Nigger and Bitch are the two most common words in the black community, and why no one seems particularly concerned about changing that fact.

maybe i'm just fed up with NYC. I hate hearing 10yr old kids calling each other nigger. Especially when they're puerto rican.

[Al fromAlberta]

I'm not sure if nappy is racist, and don't really give a shit. I thought after reading the comments in context, that it was no more than two guys discussing the Bball game and using the euphemisms as descriptors for the relative toughness of the teams.

[GILMORE]

"In Marty Beckerman piece there is the following reference:

"with certain cliques* of College Republicans... you'll hear black babies compared to bowel movements and AIDS praised as God's cure for homosexuality."

That's a hell of a statement.

Well, I went to school south of the mason dixon line, and i heard much worse than that from a wide variety of types. Democrats, even :). And at Yale, there were some real assholes from the country-club republican set who felt the same way but made the same points in more nuanced tones. The feeling that AIDS was "well deserved" by the populations it afflicted was even a common comment in NYC in the 90s amongst more consevative types. Where you could find them. 🙂

[Got my threads confused]

If I read lyrics to rap songs aloud, I'd offend someone in about 5 seconds.

Only if you didn't wear pasties.

[Lamar]

"Nappy Dugout" is the first song on Funkadelic's Cosmic Slop album. RACISTS!

This whole debacle makes me realize that nobody even knows what racism is, including myself. Imus got caught in the gray area. That said, I'm still disappointed that these badass athletes are playing the victim card. They can go all the way to the NCAA finals, but they can't deal with somebody calling them ugly.

[highnumber]

Lamar,
"Nappy Dugout" has been stuck in my head all week.

Cosmic Slop might be Funkadelic's most overrated album, btw.

[Trouble Maker]

And yet black women continue to straighten their hair. Like they're...oh, I don't know...ashamed of that aspect of their racial identity. Is that why "nappy" is offensive to some? "Ho" on the other hand is pretty obviously offensive. Even to a ho, ironically.

[Mike]

I think al sharpton should maybe ask why the words Nigger and Bitch are the two most common words in the black community, and why no one seems particularly concerned about changing that fact.

I talked to half a dozen black people today and overheard bits of a dozen or so more people's conversations and not once did I hear either of those words.

[Goldwater Conservative]

Wonderful images of "racists"

[Mo]

While I am sick of this whole thing, I'd like to state that some people can say things to their in group that people in the out group can't say. Think of it in terms of family dynamics, or what I call the little brother rule. I can make fun of my family in jest and it means one thing. If you make fun of my family, damn right I'll be pissed. Like when I was growing up, it was perfectly cool for me to beat up my little brother, but if someone else tried to mess with him, there'd be hell to pay.

[Jozef]

I've been to the US for 12 years - last 3 of them in Atlanta - and until now it didn't even occur to me that "nappy" was anything else than "diaper". I took Imus's statement as meaning "whores with diapers on their heads"; something like a female version of Coulter's "ragheads". One doesn't need to be Canadian to not understand black lingo...

[andronoid]

surprised this never came up in the discussion
Marden's history

[independent worm]

So is the degree of offense taken in this case proportional to the net worth of the offender?

Maybe Howard Stern could get some homeless people on his show to call the Rutgers women the same thing, and see whether Al Sharpton would hold a protest to get those guys evicted from their Salvation Army shelter.

[Rhywun]

I talked to half a dozen black people today and overheard bits of a dozen or so more people's conversations and not once did I hear either of those words.

In certain contexts, Gilmore is right. Hang out at any fast-food joint in NYC at about 3PM after school lets out (as I sometimes do for lunch) and you'll hear the words uttered quite loudly and dozens of times. "Nappy" I suppose is just another one of those terms that unclever white people ought to know they can't use in mixed company. There are lots of examples of this in other groups; "faggot" comes to mind. Anyway, Imus should have known he's not clever enough to get away with it - at his age he should have just told Al to piss off but I guess he's still got bills to pay.

[pigwiggle]

"Mo | April 11, 2007, 4:32pm | #
While I am sick of this whole thing, I'd like to state that some people can say things to their in group that people in the out group can't say. Think of it in terms of family dynamics, or what I call the little brother rule. I can make fun of my family in jest and it means one thing. If you make fun of my family, damn right I'll be pissed. Like when I was growing up, it was perfectly cool for me to beat up my little brother, but if someone else tried to mess with him, there'd be hell to pay."

If you expect strangers to treat your family better than you do, you are an asshole. As I'm sure your little brother will affirm. As far as what is OK to say; assuming intent or context based on ethnicity is bullshit. If nigger is repugnant, it's repugnant period. I understand it's human nature to assume some kind of authority to behave in an uncivil way based on a completely coincidental relationship (common ethnicity, family relation, whatever). But there are a lot of shitty things in human nature; doesn't make it any more palatable.

[Matt]

pigwiggle - that is a shockingly common line of argument in spite of how impoverished it is.

the primary object deserving the modifier "racist" is a person, not a word. first of all, a word is never uttered and never offends unless it there is a person behind it. but more importantly, who cares if words are racist? when people are, however, all kinds of nasty things can happen.

so when your little brother calls you a homo even though he knows you like women and you know he loves you, no ones cries for you. when don imus calls a bunch of freshman girls nappy headed hos on his nationally syndicated radio show, heads turn. this isn't too difficult to understand

it also should make clear why a couple of black kids calling each other nigga isn't a sign of self-hating racism

[Stevo Darkly]

Man, she's [Marsden's] hot. I'd do the stupid right out of her.

That comment is so inappropriate, yet I find myself nodding in agreement.

[Stevo Darkly]

Per AUH20Con:
Wonderful images of "racists"
[http://www.kukluxklan.info/]

I like the pictures at the dinner table where they're all hooded up in full Klan regalia. I am trying to imagine the table talk:

"Pa, please pass the crackers."

"In this household, we refer to them as 'salted flatcakes,' Jeffrey."

[grumpy realist]

Um, it is extremely well known that certain words can be used in an in-group without giving offense when the same words used by a member outside the group WILL give offense.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about "unfairness" of this, but this is just human nature.

And anyone with practical experience of dealing with humans will realize this.

[Lamar]

"Um,"

What are you, a mouth breather?

"it is extremely well known that certain words can be used in an in-group without giving offense when the same words used by a member outside the group WILL give offense."

This means that the words themselves are not offensive, only the way the words are used in context is offensive. If black folks are offended when white people use the same words in similar contexts, who exactly is guilty of bias?

By the way, the issue isn't whether the girls should be angry about being called a ho. The issue is whether Imus is a racist misogynist. We can all be offended for non-racial, non-gender reasons, right? How much experience does one have to have with humans to know that not all offended blacks are offended due to racism?

[Mo]

pigwiggle,
I don't expect people to treat my family better than I. However, there are different acceptable boundaries for different groups of people. My long-time friends can jokingly insult me in completely different ways than people I just met and have the comments be considered acceptable.

It seems irrational (and kinda is), but it's because the level of comfort and our relationship is largely defined. In-group, out-group isn't solely limited to race, but to personal relationships. If my friend beat me at Madden, then taunted me afterwards and I said, "I'm going to fucking kill you." We'd both have a good laugh. If I did that with someone random in a video arcade, there's a good chance I'd get escorted out by security.

[Fluffy]

I think the racial offensiveness of the word "nappy" is much, much less obvious than the offensiveness of the word "negro" or "colored" or anything above that grade.

The problem is that the word "nappy" has an actual meaning, and is useful for describing the hair of some African Americans. To decide at this late date that it's somehow offensive betrays a fundamental discomfort with blackness in general that almost rises to the level of self-hating. If black is beautiful, so is nappy.

Adding in "hos", however, pretty much pushes the total expression over the line into offensiveness.

[insomniac]

Don Imus is nappy, in the sleep inducing way. He comes on the teletube (MSNBC) here on the west coast at 02:30. If i can't a sleep, a few minutes of his stream-of-unconsciousness mumbles solves the problem.

[Lamar]

Barak Obama says "fire Imus."

Well, I've been skeptical of Obama's experience, but always open minded. I will actively oppose his sorry ass. He wants to take away someone's ability to make a living because he said shock jock words. Has Barak Obama called for Jesse Jackson to be fired because he called people "hymies"? What a sleazy, run-of-the-mill politician Obama turned out to be.

[Goldwater Conservative]

If I wasn't engaged, I would nail that chick. But you see, I am faithfully committed to my owner.

[insomniac]

he said shock jock words

Imus is incapable of shocking anyone. I suspect he is actually sucking energy from our brains and storing it deep underground, at his ranch.

[highnumber]

Lamar,

To be fair to Obama, he said he would fire Imus if Imus worked for him, and that he hoped that NBC felt the same way about Imus. A little more tactful that saying, "Fire Imus."

[GILMORE]

Mike | April 11, 2007, 4:09pm | #

"I think al sharpton should maybe ask why the words Nigger and Bitch are the two most common words in the black community, and why no one seems particularly concerned about changing that fact."

I talked to half a dozen black people today and overheard bits of a dozen or so more people's conversations and not once did I hear either of those words.

You live in Brooklyn? 🙂

My point wasnt about "everyone everywhere", but the NYC communities where sharpton has his base. He was the first to jump on this 'racist' episode and inflame the whole thing. My point is that there's a weird sensitivity to language used by white people, but an appalling standard for language used in poorer black/latino urban communities everyday. If you've lived here, and havent seen kids screaming vulgarities on the subway to each other, or mothers reprimanding their kids with language that makes you cringe, then you'd have to have a bag on your head. The main N-word offenders tend to be teen kids, but it establishes a context that becomes ridiculous at times. I've had guys stop me on the street and be like, "Yo nigga you got the time?". Most of the time you just groan and ignore it, but once i remember being like, "Ask me again, without the nigger part" It didnt make me any friends. They had meant well, but pointing out miss manners type stuff is unpopular.

When I lived in Tennessee you'd never hear that shit at all. At least in public, mixed crowds. There was a different attitude about relations and public behavior. Not better, necessarily, but different. There was more of an invisible wall. In NY, it's like we're all in the same gang 🙂 More or less.

[GILMORE]

Jozef | April 11, 2007, 4:45pm | #

I've been to the US for 12 years - last 3 of them in Atlanta - and until now it didn't even occur to me that "nappy" was anything else than "diaper". I took Imus's statement as meaning "whores with diapers on their heads

Ow. That made me laugh and laugh. I sort of imagined you saying it in a Borat type accent.

Yeah, Jozef, dont feel bad. Millions of Americans didnt/dont get it either. Basically, you need to have been listening to hiphop for the last 20 years to be 'educated' in street slang. Some people are glad they havent, but it's handy at times. At least for listening to MORE hiphop 🙂 But shit changes all the time. I'm still getting used to kids telling me "let's get up later" (i.e. let's meet). I dont know where it starts, but some days you wake up and all the kids are using some new variant of some old thing...

this can amuse, but it's littered with words that people invented but you never hear used (e.g. Hater Tots & Haterade?....pppt) = http://www.urbandictionary.com/

[James Kabala]

I think the reason people find the "nappy" part offensive is not that "nappy" itself is an offensive word, but that it is a distinguishing characteristic of black people, and when linked with insinuations of sexual promiscuity, it implies that blackness and promiscuity go hand in hand. (Sort of like the old Saturday Night Live joke, "I don't judge a man by the color of his skin; I judge him by how well you can see him in the dark when he smiles.")

[Elliott]

Fluffy,

"The problem is that the word "nappy" has an actual meaning, and is useful for describing the hair of some African Americans. To decide at this late date that it's somehow offensive betrays a fundamental discomfort with blackness in general that almost rises to the level of self-hating. If black is beautiful, so is nappy."

Sorry to single your comment out, as I've read much more silly/ignorant comments this week, but, dude, what the fuck?

Nobody decided that "nappy" was "at this late date somehow offensive." Whites have been making fun of blacks for their appearances/culture for centuries.

It's a matter of context. Not verbiage.

And as for you trying to turn it back around on blacks and accuse them of self-hatred for calling a racist asshole on his bullshit? Fuck you. That's fucking deplorable.

"Hey, black people, if you get offended because someone says something racist, you hate yourself."

Love,

Fluffy

And Lamar,

I'm sure Obama's really gonna miss your vote, dude.

[dhex]

"My long-time friends can jokingly insult me in completely different ways than people I just met and have the comments be considered acceptable."

this is pretty much the nut of it.

i don't get the conserva-honkey sensitivity to "community standards" when it comes to this stuff, unless it's mere tribalism masquerading as pop linguistics. if you're hanging with your conserva-posse, passing glasses of ill vintage and repping dave brubeck on the hi-fi, and you share a joke about being "baby-raping capitalists" you all would have a good larf.

but if al sharpton said the same thing you'd be so offended you'd probably mess your dockers. why? because he is not part of your baby-raping kapitalist krew, docksider lowrider sonofaguns, with your mind on your investments and your investments on your mind.

[dhex]

that tossaway comment from marty beckerman in another article about college republicans illustrates this perfectly. why was everyone so offended? it was just a joke!

(i've never met a college republican who wasn't a total fuck who needed to be dropped off in east new york at 3 am with imaginative racial slurs written on his face in permanent marker, but my data set is limited to about five people.)

[Pepe]

Nappy by itself is not a racist or inherently derogatory term. It simply means kinky-curly hair. It's a term mostly used by black folks about their own hair but there are white people out there with some pretty nappy hair too. It's only a put down if you think there is something wrong with having nappy hair which is, of course, an ignorant way to think.

The uproar in the Imus case is caused by the fact that he is a white man putting down the appearance of black women. If you actually listen to his entire statement, his observation was essentially that the Rutgers women looked ghetto while the Tennessee women were cute. The Rutgers players had tattoos, nappy hair, were rough looking like some gangsta hos. I don't think he literally meant he thought they were prostitutes.

He was using rap terminology but he's an old white guy so it just comes off as racist. He was trying to be funny in a somewhat offensive way, which is what talks show jocks do. People are treating it like he is a serious news commentator who made some horrendous racist statement instead of a has-been comedian with low-rated talk-show who made an unsuccessful attempt at insult comedy.

[Pepe]

And it seems fair to point out that this whole "we can call ourselves this but you can't'" vibe is very one sided. If it's so horribly offensive for Imus to call some black women "nappy-headed hos" because he's white, then white people ought to be calling for the head of Dave Chappelle for doing comedy sketches in "whiteface" using the "i'm a dorky uptight white guy" voice. Imagine a white comedian doing the equivalent - you don't have to, just rent an Al Jolson movie.

[Fluffy]

Elliot -

Sorry, dickweed, but I come down where Pepe does. The word "nappy" just describes a type of hair. Period.

I specified in my comment that it was Imus' overall statement that was offensive. I merely take issue with the fact that people are focusing on the single word "nappy", and trying to declare it offensive in and of itself.

And I absolutely stand by my assertion that the only way to take the single word "nappy" as offensive is if one is uncomfortable with whites making any reference to African-American appearance AT ALL. If the word "nappy" is offensive today, the word "kinky" will be offensive tomorrow.

[M]

The word kinky was offensive the day before yesterday and became hip yesterday.

[M]

Anyone recall the episode described in footnote #2?

http://tinyurl.com/2wfpxa

And how do you embed a url behind a character-string in this-hier format?

[M]

Sorry - my pernt about footnote #2 is that Jew (as a noun) is inoffensive and so is boy, both also terms of endearment among those so designated (the Yiddish greeting "So what does a Jew have to say?" means, roughly, "Ssssss up, Nigga?") and of course the appellation good ol' boy, at least outside the hood, signifies loyal, inclusive affection. But somewhow context changes the terms' denotation.

Hey, let's talk about Kurt Vonnegut, who just died, instead.

[Kilgore Trout]

Hey, let's talk about Kurt Vonnegut, who just died, instead.

A long time ago I read an interview where Vonnegut had said something to effect of 'I spend my time rolling around on the living room rug with my grand children and the family dog'

If that was so, heaven is unnecessary.

[highnumber]

M,

You want to make a link?

<a href="website here in quotes">Your clever text goes here</a>

[MarkV]

Yours truly is another American honkey who didn't know what 'nappy' meant, except for the British meaning of diaper. So I thought nappy-headed meant -- what, wearing a diaper on your head? Ooops....there's another ethnic slur, apparently.

Speaking modern colloquial English nowadays is like walking through a minefield.

[jk]

WARNING!

highnumber is possessed by the hypertext devil. No ordinary mortal would squeej the exact syntax of a hyperlink without rendering it.

[guess who]

squeej?

highnumber, you be de man

[M]

Auch etwas siemlich lustig hier.

[Chad]

If one hears "nappy-headed hos" and immediately thinks "blacks are inferior to whites", then the listener is racist, not the speaker.

This is much ado about nothing. Next time, Imus will say "ratty-haired skanks".

In the meantime, Rosie is spouting easily-refuted lies of the enemy day in and day out, thereby giving the lies more credibility both here and abroad than they deserve.

Which one actually gets people killed?

[R C Dean]

i don't get the conserva-honkey sensitivity to "community standards" when it comes to this stuff, unless it's mere tribalism masquerading as pop linguistics.

I think the "sensitivity" is more to the double standard of taking a man's job and threatening him with prosecution for a hate crime when he says something that, were it said by a man with different skin tone, would draw larfs and nothing more.

[green mamba]

If it's so horribly offensive for Imus to call some black women "nappy-headed hos" because he's white, then white people ought to be calling for the head of Dave Chappelle for doing comedy sketches in "whiteface" using the "i'm a dorky uptight white guy" voice.

Bingo. Some might say that the obvious double standard here is justified by minority/majority and power relations and by history, but I wouldn't.

[Fat Man At the buffet Line]

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are ambulance chasers

[Sean]

Mo's right... You have to be a member of the group to use a term that applies to the group. Case in point consider Ben Stien playing on the jewish stereotype in "Win Ben Stien's money...)It would not be acceptable if Ben weren't jewish. Nappy and Ho are eubonics like language - black slang that anyone not in the group must use very carefully - especially if you are applying it to someone in the group.

[pigwiggle]

pigwiggle - that is a shockingly common line of argument in spite of how impoverished it is.

It's hardly common, and it certainly isn't weak. Well, it isn't as weak as your "it's just different, and we all know the difference" bullshit. Repeat the same tired example, and somehow I'm going to be convinced? Or shorter - most people are ignorant hypocrites, and that's just OK. Jesus christ.

Reminds me of the niggardly business. A few of my colleagues and I were talking that mess over and the one black guy among us insisted we stop saying nigger and instead say "the N word". This guy was my friend; we'd know each other for years, our families had socialized. It was ridiculous. I tried for a few minutes and then quit the conversation. It was silly and juvenile. A group of friends and colleagues can't say a racist epithet in a completely non-racist and academic manner? Here are some words that represent far more hurtful and repugnant things; slavery, lynching, segregation, Jim Crow. Nigger is small change.

[dhex, multiverse, nothingness]

"I think the "sensitivity" is more to the double standard of taking a man's job and threatening him with prosecution for a hate crime when he says something that, were it said by a man with different skin tone, would draw larfs and nothing more."

again, it falls under "i can call my asshole friend an asshole but if this asshole does it i'm going to tear him a new...well, you get the idea."

i am actually more surprised that the retarded sexism of imus' statements wasn't jumped on more. (though ultimately, i'm surprised anyone listens to imus.)

[Kurt]

Well, I've been skeptical of Obama's experience, but always open minded. I will actively oppose his sorry ass. He wants to take away someone's ability to make a living because he said shock jock words. Has Barak Obama called for Jesse Jackson to be fired because he called people "hymies"? What a sleazy, run-of-the-mill politician Obama turned out to be.

Hey, for all we know maybe Obama did call for Jesse to be fired, by his imaginary employer, in 1984, when Obama was 23 and working some job between college and law school. If he did, I'd guess it didn't make the papers.

[Kurt]

And maybe Obama doesn't take the extraordinarily paternalistic view that WFAN has sole resposinbility to take care of Imus, such that firing him would be taking away his ability to make a living.

[Ayn Randian]

dhex - in response to your comments on the thread. I think that you're generally right from a societal standpoint (as is Mo) about the things you can say or do to certain people you cannot do to another. HOWEVER, the fact that your skin color dictates the words you can use with impunity is silly. That means that you consider people of your color "family" or "close friends". That's ridiculous.

Also, societally speaking, let's answer the Chapelle question...why is it acceptable for him to do "Dorky White Guy" but not for a white person to do "X Stereotype Black Guy"? I mean, the man even puts on the 2000s equivalent of "blackface" fer Chrissakes.

[Grotius]

Now we have a debate on the meaning of the term "rubber."

[Lamar]

"for all we know maybe Obama did call for Jesse to be fired, by his imaginary employer, in 1984, when Obama was 23 and working some job between college and law school. If he did, I'd guess it didn't make the papers."

You know, you're right. Imus will just wait the 6 seconds it takes for people like you to forget the whole scandal. My bad. Perhaps Jesse went to rehab and is OK now....BTW: Obama has yet to request a black person be fired for sexist or racist remarks. Zero, zip, nada.

[Kurt]

You know, you're right. Imus will just wait the 6 seconds it takes for people like you to forget the whole scandal. My bad. Perhaps Jesse went to rehab and is OK now....BTW: Obama has yet to request a black person be fired for sexist or racist remarks. Zero, zip, nada.

Did you have anyone specific in mind, or would a more general "some black person somewhere should be fired" suffice? Or is this still about Jesse's imaginary employer?

You're right though - of the hundreds and hundred of people Obama has said should be fired, every last one of them has been white. Very suspicious indeed...

[Lamar]

Kurt:

Jesse Jackson's imaginary employer? How about the radio stations that carry his show? Are they imaginary? I was going to post the list, to show you how wrong and idiotic you are being, but the list is way too damn long. Apparently, you were even way wronger than I thought. Pretty stupid to say that Jackson has no boss when he has about 40 radio stations who can boot him off the air.

Please, in the future, know what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it. BTW: What's your point about Obama? Usually when I'm correct, people respond as you do, avoiding the issue, making a snarky reply that sarcastically agrees with my assertion. They never seem to directly say that I'm wrong, or have anything to back it up. I don't have access to Obama's personal files, but a quickie google search and cheapo wiki-research hasn't revealed anything analogous to his support of ruining Don Imus. Zero, zip, nada.

[dhex]

"HOWEVER, the fact that your skin color dictates the words you can use with impunity is silly. That means that you consider people of your color "family" or "close friends". That's ridiculous."

it may or may not be ridiculous, but that's how things are. i don't particularly see it as that ridiculous, just mildly, since i don't have a tribe to call my own.

and i swear that somewhere, somehow, i've seen white comedians do racial jokes. really!

(keep in mind that most of all, being funny is the ultimate good here, and mr. chappelle is/was consistently funny)

[Kurt]

Well really I was wondering who his employer was in 1984, because honestly it never occurred to me that anyone would be wacky enough to suggest that radio stations should drop Jackson's show in 2007 for something he said in 1984, but that'll teach me to make assumptions.

So let's review your contentions:

1. Jesse Jackson should be fired, for racial comments made in 1984.

2. Imus should *not* be fired, for racial comments made a week ago.

3. Obama is an inconsistent, racist, hypocrite for suggesting that one of those people should be fired, while the other should not.

4. Lamar is *not* an inconsistent, sleazy hypocrite for suggesting that one of those people should be fired, while the other should not.

The last one isn't really a "contention", but I'm guessing that's your position. Rather than directly saying you're wrong, I think I'll let your own statements speak for themselves.

As for "ruining" Imus, gimme a freaking break: a) whatever ruin there is is entirely self-inflicted, and (b) since when is losing a job "ruin"? I don't have a tv or radio show, I don't particularly feel ruined. Do you? And anyway, presumably someone else will get the MSNBC morning slot - are you trying to "ruin" *his* life?

[Lamar]

Kurt,

Since you're not reading my arguments, I'll spell them out for anybody else who happens to be looking:

(1) I don't think Imus or Jackson should be fired. I merely demand equality.

But let's look at the issue without trying to make it look ridiculous (in lieu of actual analysis - you really are a clown). Jackson said "hymie" in 1984, yet won the Michigan primary in and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine and Newsweek in 1988. Is that contemporaneous enough for you? I doubt you can find blacks calling for his resignation. In fact, they urged him to run for president!

You're "guessing" a lot at my position. What this means is that you are making up a position to attack (called a red herring).

(2) I'm very consistent: you don't take away a man's livelihood unless necessary. My whole point is that we should apply these new rules consistently. We aren't doing that. It is clear that there are mass media outlets that have on air talent that have used worse slurs in both the recent and distant past, both black and white.

(3) Your review of my "contentions" shows that you're not even trying to hear my arguments. First, your list is a red herring, meaning you just made that crap up. If you notice, all of your arguments have been negations of other people's arguments. Well done, Kurt. Way to not saying anything.

Why don't you go back, actually read my posts, then try again.

[Bob Marley]

Dread, Natty Dread now, (Natty Dread)
Dreadlock Congo Bongo I. (Natty Dread)
Natty Dreadlock in a Babylon: (Natty Dread)
A dreadlock Congo Bongo I. (Natty Dread)
Eh! Children get your culture (Natty Dreadlock)
And don't stay there and gesture, a-ah, (Natty Dreadlock)
Or the battle will be hotter (Natty Dreadlock)
And you won't get no supper. (Natty Dreadlock)

Natty Dread, Natty Dread, now; (Natty Dread)
A dreadlock Congo Bongo I. (Natty Dread)
Natty Dreadlock in a Babylon - (Natty Dread)
Roots Natty, Roots Natty! (Natty Dread)

Then I walk up the first street, (Natty Dreadlock)
And then I walk up the second street to see. (Natty Dreadlock)
Then I trod on through third street, (Natty Dreadlock)
And then I talk to some Dread on fourth street. (Natty Dreadlock)
Natty Dreadlock in a fifth street, (Natty Dreadlock)
And then I skip one fence to sixth street. (Natty Dreadlock)
I've got to reach seventh street: (Natty Dreadlock)
Natty Dreadlock Bingy Bongo I (Natty Dread)
Natty dread, Natty Dread, now, (Natty Dread)
Roots Natty Congo I. (Natty Dread)

Oh, Natty, Natty,
Natty 21,000 miles away from home, yeah!
Oh, Natty, Natty,
And that's a long way
For Natty to be from home.

Don't care what the world seh; (Natty Dread)
I'n'I couldn't never go astray. (Natty Dread)
Just like a bright and sunny day: (Natty Dread)
Oh, we're gonna have things our way. (Natty Dread)
Natty Dread, Natty Dreadlock, (Natty Dreadlock)
Dreadlock Congo Bongo I. (Natty Dreadlock)
Don't care what the world seh; (Natty Dreadlock)
I'n'I gonna have things our way. (Natty Dreadlock)
If a egg Natty in a the red - (Natty Dreadlock)
If a egg Natty in a the red. (Natty Dreadlock)
Natty Dread, Natty Dreadlock. [fadeout]

[ChrisO]

A few weeks back I stumbled onto Red Eye while flipping channels in my drunken state following a night of carousing. I thought it was a cable access show at first.

Marsden is a hottie, to be sure, but definitely less attractive with that "Crazy!" sign flashing above her head. Or is that just in my imagination?

[tros]

I seriously doubt that any of the Rutgers women's basketball team would object to being referred to as "nappy" in comparison to a "bunch of white bitches". I don't really think the offense here is racist as much as blatantly misogynistic. The only people that refer to all women colloquially as "Ho s" are retarded CIA puppets that sell crack cocaine and then pimp out the addicts that depend on them.

These people have received a lot of exposure from the retarded CIA puppets controlling the television and radio broadcasts in this country. It's called "hip hop". The "hip hop" you see on the TEE VEE is retarded.

Its bigger than hip hop, hip hop, hip hop, hip hop

Uh, one thing bout music, when it hit you feel no pain
White folks say it controls your brain
I know better than that, thats game and we ready for that
Two soldiers head of the pack, matter of fact who got the gat?
And where my army at?
Rather attack and not react
Back the beats, it dont reflect on how many records get sold
On sex, drugs, and rock and roll, whether your projects put on hold
In the real world, these just people with ideas
They just like me and you when the smoke and camera disappear
Again the real world (world), its bigger than all these fake ass records
When poor folks got the millions and my womans disrespected
If you check 1,2, my word of advice to you is just relax
Just do what you got to do, if that dont work then kick the facts
If you a fighter, rider, ? bouter? , flame ignitor, crowd exciter
Or you wanna just get high, then just say it
But then if you a liar-liar, pants on fire, wolf-cry agent with a wire
Im gonna know it when I play it

Hook

Uh, who shot biggie smalls?
If we dont get them, they gonna get us all
Im down for runnin up on them crackers in they city hall
We ride for yall, all my dogs stay real
Nigga dont think these record deals gonna feed your seeds
And pay your bills because they not
Mcs get a little bit of love and think they hot
Talkin bout how much money they got, all yall records sound the same
I sick of that fake thug, r & b, rap scenario all day on the radio
Same scenes in the video, monotonous material, yall dont here me though
These record labels slang our tapes like dope
You can be next in line, and signed, and still be writing rhymes and broke
You would rather have a lexus, some justice, a dream or some substance?
A beamer, a necklace or freedom?
Still a nigga like me dont playa hate, I just stay awake
This real hip hop, and it dont stop until we get the po-po off the block
They call it....

HIP hop, hip hop, hip hop, hip hop

[Kurt]

You know what? I don't agree with the idea that it's illegitimate to criticize someone without having made criticism of a somewhat similar occurence 23 years ago. I also don't agree that getting fired from a job for saying something stupid is any kind of a big deal; particularly when you're being paid for your ideas and speech.

All that said, my initial post *was* unnecessarily snarky, and I apologize for that.

[Lamar]

I was a bit of a dick too, but these long, rhyming, poetic posts are killing me!!!! Stop it tros, for the love of gosh....

[Les]

ChrisO,

It's not just your imagination. She made up date-rape charges about a professor she used to stalk. Whole story is here:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/29/marsden/index.html