Rush Limbaugh (D-Hawaii)

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It's only been flagged by Kathryn Jean Lopez at NR, but knowing the priorities of our cable news shows, I wouldn't be surprised to hear some carping about Democratic Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii).

Yesterday, Abercrombie was particularly critical of Rice, the former national security adviser, whom Abercrombie described as "the most overrated, underperforming individual in executive authority that I have ever seen."

"She constantly gets a pass. Who knows if the whole question of race and gender come into it, but … I can't account for it, except to say she isn't up to the mark," Abercrombie said.

That's rude… and, uh, true. The ascension of Rice to Colin Powell's old job got a little less fanfare than the Pelosi coronation, but it got a lot of fanfare. I don't even think she was sworn in for a month when websites were launched pushing her as a presidential candidate. This was enough for Tim Russert to ask her in March 2005—after two months as secretary of state—whether she would run for president. So she's overrated. And has she underperformed? Well, how's that Middle East doing these days?

Inarguably, Rice's blackness has created her hype and innured her from criticism, both serious and stupid. As Jesse Walker pointed out last year, conservatives mounted a campaign against a community college professor for including Rice and a watermelon in a math problem. They succeeded in getting the school to bolster its speech codes. (She didn't even eat the watermelon, which made the controversy even stranger.) So, yes, she gets a "pass."

I mentioned Rush Limbaugh up above because any outrage over Abercrombie's comment (which is, so far, largely theoretical) recalls the outrage that got Rush Limbaugh kicked out of sportscasting. In 2003, he claimed that Eagles QB Donovan McNabb was overrated because "the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well." But this is, arguably, true. I am a lifelong Eagles fan, and over the last month have watched the team play with backup QB Jeff Garcia. To the shock of the entire Iggles Nation, the team is doing better now—it went from losing to the Colts, for the love of all that's holy, to winning its last six games and clinching the NFC East title. The point: It shouldn't be taboo to point out that a black secretary of state or QB is not living up to the hype. Actually, where secretaries of state are concerned, it's probably important to point that out.

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  1. The Fox people are more outraged that Sen. Boxer accused Rice, as Fox framed it, of not caring about dead troops because Rice doesn’t have any children of her own.

  2. Chickenhawking by any means deserves to be met with scorn and outrage.

  3. how’s that Middle East doing these days?

    How was it doing five years ago?
    Ten?
    Twenty?
    A hundred?

    Right, it used to be Paradise, then the Americans fucked it all up.

  4. Donovan McNabb’s performance both before and after Limbaugh’s comments proved him wrong. He led his team to the Superbowl in 2004. He has been one of the top 10 QBs in football for years. He was less impressive this season because he was hurt, not because Limbaugh was correct about his ability.

    Condileeza Rice, on the other hand, actually has been a failure as NSA and a Secretary of State. And yet, of everyone who served in the Bush administration, Rice was the only one I can recall being singled out as a presidential candidate. I used to read the Corner pretty regularly, and the people pushing the idea of her candidacy were always quite open about their glee at her race and gender.

    So let’s compare: good quarterback gets hyped by the media, lousy politician gets hyped by the media. Guy who runs down the quarterback is proven wrong about his abilities; guy who runs down the politician about her abilities can point to years of evidence to back up his statements.

    If Rush Limbaugh had denounced the hype about Byron Leftwich in the same terms, he might have had a leg to stand on. If Abercrombie had said that Zalmay Khalilzad was overhyped because of his ethnicity, he would have been out of bounds. But they didn’t – Limbaugh let his own ideology about racism and the media cloud his vision, and Abercrombie made an accurate statement.

  5. You see, ed, when someone makes it his or her life mission to turn what is arguably backward (and certainly authoritarian) into a model of modern democracy, it’s probably okay to discuss the failure to do so. Find me the Secretary of State who was part of a concerted effort to turn the Middle East into a model of modern democracy, then you have a point.

  6. (Insert “previous” between “the” and “Secretary” in my above comment.)

  7. So one of her job’s criteria is too solve the middle east crisis?

    Anyways, don’t bash McNabb. He’s been the shit for some time, namely when he played basketball and football at Syracuse. Shame he had to slum it up in the city that gives NYC a good name.

  8. “So one of her job’s criteria is too solve the middle east crisis?”

    According to her boss, yes, it is.

  9. steve mcnair is a better example. single-handedly turned the ravens around and is leading them to another superbowl, once they get done crushing the evil irsays this saturday. and not doing it with superior athletic skill, but with the coolness and brains so long associated with quarterbacks of pallor like montana and unitas.

    saaaay…. couldn’t we put mcnair in charge of foreign policy? time for a new game-plan.

  10. “Abercrombie described as “the most overrated, underperforming individual in executive authority that I have ever seen.”

    Fine he can call her that. I wonder what Weigel and Joe would have to say if someone had said the same thing about Donna Shalala? I am guessing they would be having a fainting fit. I am all for calling out affirmative action and holding everyone to a standard of accountabilty. Of course people like Abacrombie would never hold a black Democrat to any standard of accountability let alone the one he is holding Rice.

    Lastly, if saying this makes Limbaugh a hypocrite, doesn’t that make all fo the people who roasted him for it yet are now standing by Abacrombie just as big of hypocrites? If it goes one way, it ought to go the other, but of course it won’t.

  11. So one of her job’s criteria is too solve the middle east crisis?

    It’s at least to not help make it worse than it was.

  12. I’m more pissed that Rush got fired because he’s a Steelers fan an usually mentioned them in every broadcast.

    Screw being unbiased…

  13. Of course, John’s record of guessing liberals’ opinions is roughly equivalent to Rice’s record making counter-terrorism a priority pre 9/11.

    The liberals in your head are really devoted to Clinton’s Secretary of Health and Human Services? Good to know.

  14. Rice is an underperformer, but two things about the Eagles. One, the season didn’t turn around the minute Garcia came in, it actually had more to do with Donte Stallworth getting healthy a few weeks prior to McNabb going down. McNabb played much better in the games Stallworth did, his pass catching ability tends to keep the opposing team’s defense honest which will help whoever is behind center. The second is that Jeff Garcia is a former Pro Bowl quarterback and not someone named Detmer. Give him some respect.

  15. Of course, John’s record of guessing liberals’ opinions is roughly equivalent to Rice’s record making counter-terrorism a priority pre 9/11.

    And by the same token, anyone who drafted Kurt Warner in the fourth round should not go around pronouncing which quarterbacks are or are not overrated.

    McNabb was overrated. What Limbaugh got wrong was the part where he was overrated because he was black. As edna correctly notes, Steve McNair is underrated. When Limbaugh made his comments, McNair was probably the most underrated QB in the league.

  16. “Of course, John’s record of guessing liberals’ opinions is roughly equivalent to Rice’s record making counter-terrorism a priority pre 9/11.”

    All 8 months of it, as opposed to the 8 years Clinton had to deal with it. Of course him and Albright were too busy inviting Arrafat to the Whitehouse and chasing after his limo (a true stroy, Albright once ran after Arafat’s limo as it left the French embassy) to worry too much about terrorism. I will talk all about those 8 months when you are willing to talk about the proceeding 8 years. Fat chance.

  17. Donna Shalala seems to be doing a heckuva job down at U of Miami.

  18. About the Secretary of State position, Boheim’s Bitch raises a good question. What exactly are the standards by which you judge a sucessful SOS? That you can get other countries to heal to your “Awthorita”? Does it really take a PHD from an Ivy league school to say “Fuck you, do it our way or else?” Or is the job of a SOS to say that in a little more palatable verbage?
    As as far as Taktix comment, I think that not making is worse is a tough order. Right now Iraqi’s are fighting over a 1300 year old grudge. Who knows what innocent actions (like showing the bottom of your shoe) they would umbrage to.

  19. The only commonality that exists in this discussion is that both Limbaugh and Rice are completely worthless lying blowhards with too much access to the public’s ear. Let’s see Rush take a tackle from a D-lineman and Rice dodge bullets in Baghdad.

  20. “All 8 months of it, as opposed to the 8 years Clinton had to deal with it.”

    Indeed.

    Allbright was certainly not one iota more competent on the job than Rice is.

  21. Troy you have to understand, to the party not in power, anyone that doesn’t come up with an easy sollution to any problem or situation is incompetant.

  22. Gimme Back My Dog,

    I won my Fanstay league. Yup, made the playoffs, won that game, then won the championship. Taking Vince Young off the waiver wire, and trading for Marques Colson and Chad Pennington early, will do that. And it’s not as if Matt Leinert’s performance proved that Warner was the problem.

    “as opposed to the 8 years Clinton” Squeal like pig, boy! God, you’re easy.

  23. “as opposed to the 8 years Clinton” Squeal like pig, boy! God, you’re easy.”

    That is about only thing you can say Joe. It sucks when the facts and substance are against you.

  24. As we see another Reason “all Republicans are evil post”. It is interesting how, there has been not one post about the failure of earmarking reform in the Senate today, thanks to Harry Reid and not one post of the Pelosi minimum wage exception for micronesia and the tuna factories there. That is the kind of stuff that Hit and Run would have been all over when the Republicans controlled congress. I was assured time after time that this inbalance was only the result of the Republicans being in power. Once the Democrats got some power, Reason would watch dog them the same way. Well, I am still waiting?

  25. “It sucks when the facts and substance are against you.”

    I think many of us would agree that Rice is in a bad situation. Even the sharpest of minds look like pure idiots after a stint in the Bush2 Administration. While the comments saying that Albright was just as inept are baseless, Rice should get a bit of a pass because we all know that Bush’s Secretary of State is a figurehead position in a failed administration.

  26. You got me, John. There couldn’t possibly be any reason why someone would want to engage you in a discussion about Bill Clinton and George Bush’s record on terrorism – on a thread about something else – other than the impressive grasp of the facts you’re so well know for.

  27. Right now Iraqi’s are fighting over a 1300 year old grudge.

    and yet, it only broke out when the Bushies and the neocon gang decided to instigate civil war their.

  28. John –

    Where does David Weigel call Limbaugh a hypocrite? From his comments, it appears he’s saying that Limbaugh was arguably correct about McNabb.

  29. Not that it matters, but why are Condi’s eyes doing that weird thing in the picture? Maybe it’s just my computer.

  30. “While the comments saying that Albright was just as inept are baseless”

    Actually Allbright was MORE inept. Rice wasn’t the one stupid enough to let Jimmy Carter negogiate an appeasement deal with North Korea in a vain attempt to keep them from buiding nuclear weapons. The subsidies and technology transfers to North Korea by the Clinton administration enabled them to build their bombs faster than they would have been able to do otherwise.

  31. While the comments saying that Albright was just as inept are baseless,”

    Albright was affirmatively inept and a terrible influence on the Clinton Administration. She was the one who thought that you could trust Arrafat and gave us Oslo. She was the one who was behind the failed 1994 nuke deal with North Korea. Read the book “Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader” about the Kims. The Kim Jun Il was on his last leg in 1994. had the U.S. not paid him protection money, the regime would have probably fallen on its own, but we will never know thanks to Albright. Further, read the book, We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families: Stories from Rwanda” about her obviscating and basically undermining the effort to stop the Rwandan genocide. Albright was a disaster on all levels and did Clinton one diservice after another.

  32. gl,

    Time magazine wanted to run a photo they had of Rice a few years ago, but the exposure was too dim and the picture was murky, so they turned up the gain to make the whites pop.

    As you can see, pop they did. Her eyes looked weird, and the warbloggers decided that the Islamofascists in the media had conspired to make her look like the bad guy in an alien invasion movie. Because they do that sort of thing. A lot.

  33. “She was the one who thought that you could trust Arrafat and gave us Oslo…”

    And the seven years without a terror attack that Israel enjoyed. And the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty.

    “She was the one who was behind the failed 1994 nuke deal with North Korea.” The one that successfully froze their plutonium program, until Bush reneged on it?

    BTW, she (along with Al Gore) convinced Clinton to put an end to the Serb genocides in Bosnia and Kosovo.

  34. Inarguably, Rice’s blackness has created her hype and innured her from criticism, both serious and stupid. As Jesse Walker pointed out last year, conservatives mounted a campaign against a community college professor for including Rice and a watermelon in a math problem. They succeeded in getting the school to bolster its speech codes. (She didn’t even eat the watermelon, which made the controversy even stranger.) So, yes, she gets a “pass.”

    What a train wreck this paragraph is. She’s black, so she’s inured against racist criticism? Or she’s Republican, so she’s inured against criticism for being black? Who knows. Dave’s outraged, though, that much we can all agree on.

  35. joe,

    just bustin your balls. But this does demonstrate how unimportant quarterbacks are in fantasy football. Going into the draft I wasn’t even going to draft a QB, but Vick was still available in the eighth or ninth round.

  36. And let me get this straight, the premise of the post is a reaction against a controversy currently limited to a K-Lo post on NRO?

  37. “If it wasn’t for that dag-blasted negro woman I would still be Czar of Soviet Russia Empire!”

    check her resume
    show me where she has particularly fucked up
    (say on the scale of many of her illustrious predecessors)
    find the text of her speech at the 1992 Republican convention-she sounde more libertarian than any repub since Goldwater
    including the Gipper

  38. Yeah, where does all this hyper-sensitivity to the feelings Black people come from, anyway? It’s almost as though we White people feel guilty about something.

  39. Joe, just as a point of fact, there were terrorist attacks in isreal during every year of the clinton administration (and both bushes of course), so you can’t claim that one for albright.

  40. Not that this is the point, but that gawd-awful loss to the Colts that Weigel brought up? The starting QB in that game was Jeff Garcia. Granted, he got better after that, but it doesn’t make any sense to lay the blame for underperforming on McNabb and cite a game Garcia started as the low point.

  41. Gimme Back My Dog,

    I know. I’m just grateful for the excuse to brag about the fact the I WON MY FANTASY LEAGUE. I drafted LaMont Jordan in round 2. I started the season with Kurt Warner as my stating QB. My two starting wideouts were Derrick Mason and Nate Burleson. I took Laurence Maroney in round 3, and Cory Dillon didn’t get hurt.

    And I STILL won my fantasy league!

  42. Hunter,

    There were no terrorist attacks in Israel during that period. The occupied territories are not Israel.

  43. the most overrated, underperforming individual in executive authority that I have ever seen

    He must not get out much. Norman Mineta, anyone?

  44. “The one that successfully froze their plutonium program, until Bush reneged on it?”

    The Clinton/Albright deal didn’t “succesfully” freeze anything.

    The North Koreans cheated on the agreement from the get go.

  45. “She was the one who was behind the failed 1994 nuke deal with North Korea.” The one that successfully froze their plutonium program, until Bush reneged on it?”

    Joe I don’t know why I bother anymore. You refuse to see or admit any fact that goes against your world view. But lets give it one more try lest anyone say I am not a true optimist.

    “The Bush Administration disclosed on October 16, 2002, that North Korea had revealedto U.S. Assistant Secretaryof State James Kellyin Pyongyangthat it was conductinga secretnuclear weapons program based on the process of uranium enrichment. North Koreaadmitted the program in response to U.S. evidence presented by Kelly. The program isbased on the process of uranium enrichment, in contrast to North Korea’s pre-1995 nuclearprogram based on plutonium reprocessing. North Korea began a secret uranium enrichmentprogram after 1995 reportedly with the assistance of Pakistan. North Korea providedPakistan with intermediate range ballistic missiles in the late1990s. The Central IntelligenceAgency issued a statement in December 2002 that North Korea likely could produce anatomic bomb through uranium enrichment in 2004.”

    http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:l9jqS3JCAscJ:www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/nk24.pdf+october+2002+north+korea+nuclear+weapons&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=16

    Joe the North Koreans never abided by the 1994 agrement. They admitted to the US in Octover of 2002 that they had been running a secret program since 1995. You are just wrong about that. George Bush was barely governor of Texas when the North Koreans started cheating. Can we at least admit to the facts here and not live in denial or worse yet lie?

  46. Sister, not only will every American have something to pay if Islamists do as promised and start bringing their bombers here because you and the rest of the cut-n-runners want to surrender in Iraq, but you have some brass ovaries in suggesting that I’m somehow less authentic to speak on this issue because I haven’t bred to your specifications. Real feminist solidarity there, bitch. And if you want to play the ‘blood tie’ card, let’s talk about your grandfather paying for the boats that hauled my grandfather to the new world in chains, eh?

  47. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael-4.html

    “There were no terrorist attacks in Israel during that period. The occupied territories are not Israel.”

    Jesus Joe, do you live in that much denial? I can’t believe that anyone could lie like this, so I dont’ think you are lying. Go to the link above and you will see a chonology of terror attacks against Israel during that time. Some of them are in the occupyed territories but many included several deadly bus bombings are not. Again, stop denying facts!!

  48. Sorry Joe, that is patently untrue, there were terrorist attacks in Isreal every year since 1993 (of course there were attacks before that too). You can check the Federation of American scientists- fas.org for confirmation (I’m sure there are other sources as well).

  49. Ok, I’m a Stillers fan, but having been exiled to the Philly area for a while, I’ve seen quite a few Iggles games.

    Personally, I think the Eagles’ recent success has been more about Reid stepping back and letting their offensive coordinator, Morninwhig(sic), have more freedom in play calling since McNabb went down. The result of this has been a more balanced offense. The Eagles are actually RUNNING the ball now, and staying committed to it. If McNabb was playing in an offense similar to the CURRENT playcalling, he might very well be doing as well as Garcia (who has played solid, but not spectacular), or he might not. But Jeff Garcia certainly isn’t the sole reason the Eagles are where they are right now.

  50. I’m still trying to figure out this whole “Rice gets a pass” thing. She’s on the short-list of most-hated administration officials.

    Exactly what criticism has been blunted or foregone, and by who?

  51. I’m still trying to figure out this whole “Rice gets a pass” thing. She’s on the short-list of most-hated administration officials.

    Maybe it’s a beltway and talking heads thing. In those arenas, Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney are always maligned as stubborn jackasses who botched/are botching the war. Rice is portrayed as a stylish intellectual, even though she’s probably just as integral to these decisions.

  52. John, Gilbert,

    The 1994 agreement covered plutonium, not uranium enrichment. Your own quote states this, dumbass. North Korea wasn’t cheating on the deal – it was carrying out activities that weren’t covered by the deal. After the treaty was signed, North Korea froze its uranium program, as provided for under the terms of the agreement.

    The facts don’t support your argument, fake-soldier-John, so you can drop the haughty tone of voice. From your own quote, “program isbased on the process of uranium enrichment, in contrast to North Korea’s pre-1995 nuclearprogram based on plutonium reprocessing.”

    An intelligent reaction to the discovery of their plutionium program would have been to strike a deal on plutonium enrichment. But, hey, the “let’s do nothing” strategy worked so well.

  53. vox populi said,

    “Let’s see Rush take a tackle from a D-lineman and Rice dodge bullets in Baghdad.”

    As the voice of the people and having come up with this line you win the thread.

  54. correction, “North Koread froze its plutionium program”

    and “…discovery of their uranium program…uranium enrichment.”

  55. You are hopeless Joe. You are just hopeless. The 1994 deal was sold as an agreement to stop the North Koreans from going nuclear. It nothign of the kind. The North Koreans went merrily on and pocketed the protection money and went nuclear. Oh, but they were doing uranium not plutonium defies credulity. Cut the fake soldier crap. When you pulled that crap before I gave you my office number and sent you an e-mail from my work account. You know it is not true, stop lying about it. You can be reasonable on here sometimes, but when someone catches you on a patently rediculous statement like this one or the one about Israel you just turn into a troll.

  56. Hunter,

    I stand corrected. Terror attacks in Israel decreased significantly during that period, but did not not cease.

  57. The Eagles have won more games lately with Garcia than with McNabb, but not because Garcia is playing better than McNabb was. Not at all. The Eagles lost games early in the season due to a combination of defensive injuries, unusual events (like the Giants recovering a fumble after it rolled 15 yards into the endzone), and very good opposing FG kickers. This can all be found discussed at the excellent site, Football Outsiders, where they do innovative play-by-analysis of the game. The Eagles offense was, in fact, damn spectacular under McNabb this year, who has been equal to his hype, and Garcia has not been as good. The Eagles have still been very good under Garcia, but that’s not an indictment of McNabb, by any means.

  58. I’m hopeless, John. You should just stop trying.

    I don’t care what is was “sold as.” It was an agreement to stop their plutonium production, and it worked. Your statement that they cheated on the deal is demonstrably, completely false. As a matter of fact, we broke the deal, by failing to deliver the power plant we’d agreed to.

    BTW, hotmail tagged your email address as a fake, and then you started using a different one.

  59. “An intelligent reaction to the discovery of their plutionium program would have been to strike a deal on plutonium enrichment. But, hey, the “let’s do nothing” strategy worked so well.”

    Yeah just pay them more protection money because they were still going nuclear. If anything, what you point out reflects even more poorly on Albright. They had to have known the agrement didn’t cover all forms of enrichment and did nothing in fact to prevent North Korea from going nuclear, yet still signed the agreement and paid the proteciton money. That is even worse than I portrayed it. I at least acted on the assumption that Albright was acting under good, if misguided faith, taking this into account, she wasn’t even doing that.

  60. “BTW, hotmail tagged your email address as a fake, and then you started using a different one.”

    Joe, send me an e-mail to the address above and it will be forwarded to my work account and I will send you another from my current work account. My phone number is on the bottom. Feel free to call me anytime. I promise to be friendly. Really. I don’t know what else to tell you.

  61. Rice may be a perfectly competent factotum, doing the bidding of her incompetent President. Bitching about cabinet members who are following the Chief Executive’s policy never makes much sense to me.

    Iggles fans must realize that their team’s success has as much to do with the nuclear-meltdown-collapse of my Jints as with Mr. Garcia’s able understudying of Mr. McNabb. I blame the injuries to DE Michael Strahan, LB LaVar Arrington, LT Luke Petitgout and WR Amani Toomer, along with whatever brain injury Tom Coughlin has sustained. Young Mr. Mara ought to be scheduled for an MRI for keeping him on.

    I hate her politics, but maybe my Giants should hire Donna Shalala to be the GM. After all, she hired Barry Alverez, who turned the University of Wisconsin’s football program from a Big T1e1n doormat into a 3-time Rose Bowl champion.

    Kevin

  62. Hmmm, Albright had some successes and some failures, rather par for the course, I’d say. It’s not like she had an Iraq fiasco on her watch. More importantly, when I said that comparisons between Albright and Rice are baseless I meant that the comparisons are baseless. Not a single person compared Rice to Albright, instead just trotting out alll the supposed dirty laundry of the Clinton Administration. I didn’t say Albright was perfect, but for chrissakes, John, if North Korea is so much more dangerous than Iraq, why in God’s name did we invade Iraq? Perhaps that could have something to do with the former National Security Advisor?

  63. John, if North Korea is so much more dangerous than Iraq, why in God’s name did we invade Iraq”

    Because we can invade Iraq and loose 12,000 casualties in four years. If there was another Korean War, there would be 12,000 US causalties or more on the first day. A Korean war would probably kill at least a million South Koreans. If you can show me a way to take out North Korea with 3000 dead and maybe 100,000 South Koreans dying, it might be worth it. Unfortunately, that is not the case and I don’t think going to war with Korea is a very good idea at all.

  64. You are right Lamar, the competance of Rice has nothing to do with Albright.

  65. John,
    I think your post makes an incorrect assumption, i.e., that we had to invade somebody. I think war with Korea is a bad idea as well, and it is wrong to compare a strategic invasion of N.Korea with our Iraq activities.

  66. “Yeah just pay them more protection money because they were still going nuclear.”

    Any time you’ve got an alternative, just go ahead and shout it out. We tried it your way, and now North Korea has nukes. Thanks for that, btw. Glad I live on the east coast.

  67. The reason Condi is exempt from criticism (and deservedly so) is that Condi is hot, hot, hot!

    By the way, anyone who gives a damn about football has no genitals.

    Oh, and if I had been President I probably would not have invaded N. Korea, if only to head off the inevitable M*A*S*H II. Alan Alda has too much money already.

  68. “Any time you’ve got an alternative, just go ahead and shout it out. We tried it your way, and now North Korea has nukes.”

    Joe, they were going to get them anyway. Short of invading we were not going to stop them. Why pay them protection money that won’t stop them.

    Lamar,

    I am not saying that “we had to invade someone”. I am just saying that just because North Korea is as big of a threat or bigger than Saddam was doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have dealt with Saddam. The two situations are different. If Saddam had had a gazzilion artillary pieces pointed at Tel Aviv, I would never have supported invading Iraq. For the same reason, I don’t support invading North Korea absent an outright act of war on their part.

  69. Don’t worry Joe, give it a decade or so and the Iranians will have nukes and missiles capable of hitting the east coast. My advice is to move the North Dakota or West Texas.

  70. I guess John Bolton was a failure at the UN, too. He didn’t kiss our enemies asses, and he played no part in any worthless agreements that would eventually come back to haunt us. Rice has talked tough and refused to diplomatically engage those who would lie to us. The fact that the mid-east isn’t fixed has never before been a reason to declare the Secretary of State a failure, but for Weigel it takes very little to give him an excuse to jump the Republican’s shit.

  71. “and yet, it only broke out when the Bushies and the neocon gang decided to instigate civil war their.”

    That’s just plain stupid.

  72. “Why pay them protection money that won’t stop them.”

    It stopped their plutonium program. North Korea is building nukes for two reasons – to deter us from invading, and to make money. Not even big money, from the p.o.v. of our defense spending. Keep them talking, grease the skids with small change – that was Albright’s plan to manage the problem, and it’s not a bad one.

    “My advice is to move the North Dakota or West Texas.” Point taken – there are indeed worse things than nuclear annihilation.

  73. “And the seven years without a terror attack that Israel enjoyed. And the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty.”

    Israel enjoyed 7 terror-free years??? When was that??? Anyone on these boards gotta brain?

  74. “Keep them talking, grease the skids with small change – that was Albright’s plan to manage the problem, and it’s not a bad one.”

    Maybe in 1994. We know now that the North Koreans will never be trustworthy. The worst thing we can do is send them aide and prop up their regime or give them the legitimacy of two way talks with the US. Make them talk to all of the regional powers, cut off their money laundarying, dont’ send them any aide, and hope that the place falls in before Kim can sell nukes to anyone. It is not a great option, but it beats giving Kim protection money or going to war.

  75. An exerpt from an NRO online article:

    “According to a number of others who were authors or admirers of the “Agreed Framework,” the Bush administration spoiled everything by conducting a review of the Clinton legacy in this area and then, last year, by citing North Korea as a member of the “Axis of Evil.”
    There are several things wrong with this line that suggest it is little more than a nakedly partisan effort to conceal the shortcomings of the Agreed Framework – and the reckless na?vet? of those who trusted in it.

    For one thing, by its own terms, the Agreed Framework was supposed to effect “an overall resolution of the nuclear issue on the Korean peninsula.” Pursuant to its terms, both the U.S. and North Korea strove to “achieve peace and security on a nuclear-free Korean peninsula.” Pyongyang also pledged that it “will consistently take steps to implement the North-South Joint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.”

    What is more, President Clinton declared the day after the Agreed Framework was signed that: “This agreement will help to achieve a longstanding and vital American objective: an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean peninsula.”

    In short, the explicit purpose of this agreement was to prevent North Korea from pursuing nuclear weapons of any type, through any technique. If President Clinton and his negotiators had an expectation that the North was only prescribed from pursuing nuclear weapons via “the most likely and dangerous road,” but that it would be free and entitled to take other paths (for example, the uranium-based approach the Communists ultimately chose), the American people were not apprized of that view. To the contrary, they were led to believe exactly the opposite.

    Then, there is the matter of the timing of the North Korean cheating on the Agreed Framework. U.S. intelligence believes that Kim Jong-Il started up his covert uranium weapons program sometime between 1998 and 2000. In other words, they began to violate the “object and purpose” of the accord as much as two years before President Bush came to office – and three years before his reference to the North’s standing as a member of “Axis of Evil.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/gaffney/gaffney011003.asp

  76. Short of invading we were not going to stop them.

    have to disagree. you don’t need to invade to functionally take out the government. several hundred well-placed bombs will do that; it isn’t like we didn’t know where kim was much of the time.

    we didn’t do that because we were (imo too) worried about the nk troops massed on the south korean border.

  77. Nice Stargate reference in the accompanying gif with Condi as a Goa’uld 🙂

  78. “If you can show me a way to take out North Korea with 3000 dead (American soldiers) and maybe 100,000 South Koreans dying, it might be worth it.”

    1 American Soldier = 33.3 Korean Civilians

    Christ, I just love the new math!

  79. “We know now that the North Koreans will never be trustworthy.”

    Verification can be built into a deal.

    “…hope that the place falls in before Kim can sell nukes to anyone.” Hope!?! What about the mushroom clouds, John? What about proliferation being the most important goal?

    “It is not a great option, but it beats giving Kim protection money…” Why? It’s not big money.

    Gilbert, I’m sure that no one is terribly surprises that National Review would mislead their readers about something involving Bill Clinton. The deal was never intended to be a final-status solution. Dealing with North Korea was meant to be an ongoing effort, to manage a problem that we were unlikely to ever eliminate completely. NRO is simply misrepresenting the facts about the purpose and strategy of the Clinton administration’s effort, to make Bush’s failure to deal with the ongoing situation appear to be someone else’s fault.

    Bush bought a house with a nice, clean pool; failed to clean the pool; then blamed the former owner when it filled up with algae a year later.

  80. “It is not a great option, but it beats giving Kim protection money…” Why? It’s not big money.”

    Because they will just take it and cheat again. If diplomacy and protection money was going to stop them from producing nukes, they wouldn’t have restarted unranium production in 1998. The fact is that they took the money and just went ahead and did what they want. What makes you think they wouldn’t do the same again? Ever see the cartoon with Charlie Brown Lucy and the football. The North Koreans screwed Clinton and the U.S.. Why is that so hard to admit?

  81. “NRO is simply misrepresenting the facts about the purpose and strategy of the Clinton administration’s effort, to make Bush’s failure to deal with the ongoing situation appear to be someone else’s fault.”

    Says you.

  82. “Bush bought a house with a nice, clean pool”

    The North Koreans secretly enriching Uranium and building a bomb while also being the largest recipient of foreign aid in Asia is a nice clean pool?

  83. To the shock of the entire Iggles Nation, the team is doing better now – it went from losing to the Colts, for the love of all that’s holy, to winning its last six games and clinching the NFC East title.

    Not sure what you mean by this. You make it sound as if the Colts are a bad team. To the contrary, they’re having a great year: 12-4. A lot of people lose to the Colts. I’d be more embarrassed by the Eagles’ loss to Tampa Bay.

  84. Hey! I was at that game. Too bad the highlight of our season was a field goal 🙁

    Fortunately, I am a graduate of the University of Florida and thus have other means of indigenous entertainment.

  85. zzzzzzz. Boring. What I got out of this thread is that a SOS is judged by the degree to which other states uphold thier respective portions of any deal that SOS brings about through her efforts.
    If that is true, I wouldn’t want to ever be SOS. To imagine that whether I am a success is determined by the integrity of Sunni’s, Shia, North Koreans, the Taliban, Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, or the Seattle Seahawks sucks.

  86. I think she gets a pass because, well, we have other folks in the administration to talk about.

    As for McNabb, you’ll notice that once they sat him down, they finally figured out that perhaps they should run the ball…

  87. “It is not a great option, but it beats giving Kim protection money…” Why? It’s not big money.

    Billions for defense, not too much for tribute. 😉

  88. shouldn’t we be doing a head to head comparison with Albright or Powell before we say she is under-performing??

  89. “What makes you think they wouldn’t do the same again?”

    I’m sure they would, given the opportunity. We’ll have to give them a few more bucks. It’s an ongoing process. Beats them having a nuclear arsenal. As you say, there’s no perfect solution, but any solution that involves our doing nothing while they build up their arsenal (the Bush Plan) is inferior to any solution that involves them stopping their program (one example being the Clinton Plan) – short of war, that is. I think we can both agree that going to war to stop their program is a crazy idea.

    Gilbert, “This agreement will help to achieve a longstanding and vital American objective: an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean peninsula.”

    What does the phrase “will help to achieve” mean in this sentence?

  90. At the time of Limbaugh’s black QB comments, a large % of the NFL’s star QBs were black. Steve McNair was co-MVP. Culpepper was putting up huge numbers. Even Aaron Brooks ( possibly the worst of the “black quarterbacks) was decent. There was no need to “prop-up” any Black QBs.

    McNabb has been a Pro Bowl QB and led his team deep in the playoffs and to a SB. His QB rating has always been high.

    What Rush said was wrong, not because of the race issue, but because he was just WRONG. He could’ve said McNabb was “overrated” and some people would agree. But the love of McNabb had little to do with race and the comment was stupid.

    Peyton Manning racks up big numbers but has never won a bug game. Does he get so much love because people are “desirious that a southern white quarterback do well”? Surely Jim Corgi should be starting. OR they should not have cut Shaun King this year. Shaun King should be starting for the Colts right now, except that whole Tony Dungy wanting to propup a white QB thing.

    Jeff Garcia could not even win the starting job in CLEVELAND or DETROIT. He was a CFL QB who LUCKED into a 49 job that any QB could have succeeded in. For a 20 year period being a 49er QB was like being a Broncos RB. It didn’t matter who they plugged in there. He had a couple good seasons then sucked.

    I like Jeff Garcia. He’s doing well this year. Brad Johnson had a nice season in 2005, too. It’s also pretty cool that he’s a homosexual but he had the Playmate of the Year fighting over him in a bar.

    But he’s not better than McNabb. Maybe McNabb IS overrated, but he isn’t bad. And there was no substance to the race things.

  91. mcnair. mcnabb. why are so many black quarterbacks irish?

  92. And she’s a slut.

    I say Abercrombie is the most overrated, underperforming individual in governmental authority that I have ever seen.

  93. Dr. Rice is very smart, very talented, a patriot, and IMHO very pretty.

    I’ve learned from her govt career that smart, talented, patriotic, and pretty are not sufficient for successful execution of any particular govt job.

    There’s something about the epic proportions of global events, combined with stifling conventions and bureaucracy, that strike low even the highly gifted.

    If she had the EQ and power of a President Bill Clinton, we’d judge her differently.

  94. Joe,

    I am late to this thread. Early on you said that “Rice was the only one I can recall being singled out as a presidential candidate.” The whole country, Republican and Democrat alike were drooling over Colin Powell as a presidential prospect. Powell was a pretty good SoS and might actually be a good president. He would certainly be better than GWB.

    Rice as president strikes me as ludicrous, but then so did Gore and he almost won.

  95. Certainly Condo Rice gets a pass because she is a black woman. That is an undeniable fact of life in modern America. If she was a 50 year old, un-married and uninspiring white man, she would receive the trashing she deserves.

  96. Huh? Brad Johnson is gay? I’ve never heard that one. Isn’t he married?

    I rather like Condi Rice. She seems bright and reasonable enough. This is a lousy administration to be an intellectual in, and these are also fairly tough times to craft and execute a foreign policy. No doubt about it, after AG, SoS is the toughest cabinet post. Sometimes it is THE toughest post.

  97. “…Albright once ran after Arafat’s limo as it left the French embassy”

    What?! That fat bitch actually ran somewhere? Shit! I’m surprised the tubby whore didn’t break both of her ankles! What a worthless bucket of lard.

  98. “Gilbert, “This agreement will help to achieve a longstanding and vital American objective: an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean peninsula.”

    What does the phrase “will help to achieve” mean in this sentence?”

    It means one more thing that Bill Clinton lied about. The agreement achieved nothing but wasting a big chunk of the taxpayers money while the North Koreans continued to work on developing nuclear weapons, which, as the article said, was contrary to the explicit purpose of the agreement.

  99. Am I the only one who finds the picture of “Goa’uld Condi” to be as disturbing as that of the carpet-humping guy?

  100. “Huh? Brad Johnson is gay? I’ve never heard that one. Isn’t he married?”

    He meant that he thinks Jeff Garcia is gay. Garcia has a high-pitched voice, came from SF, and was accused by Terrell Owens of being gay.

    No one actually knows, but that never stopped idiots from speculating.

  101. Am I the only one who finds the picture of “Goa’uld Condi” to be as disturbing as that of the carpet-humping guy?

    At least they don’t have her talking with the creepy Goa’uld voice.

    No wait, that would be cool!

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