Who Today Remembers the Armenian Extermination?

Your daily dose of irony: France is trying to crack down on denialists of the Armenian genocide as a way of screwing Turkey out of a European Union membership.

The draft law, to be debated by the National Assembly Thursday, was submitted by the opposition Socialist Party and has strong support among those on the political right who hope to derail Turkey's candidacy for European Union membership.
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The EU has not made recognition of the Armenian genocide a condition for Turkey to join the union. But with popular opinion across Europe skeptical about accepting Muslim Turkey into the EU fold, the genocide issue has been seized upon by politicians as justification for denying it membership.

During a visit to Armenia last month, French President Jacques Chirac became the latest European leader to insist that Turkey could never join the EU until it agreed that Armenians were the victims of genocide.

It's already a crime in France to deny the Holocaust. I'm not sure if that ban was passed as a way of screwing over another Arab Muslim country, but odds are even.

(Post title reference here.)

Comments

[happyjuggler0]

FYI, Turkey is not another Arab country, any more than Germany is another Latin country.

Arab usually also means a Muslim, but Muslim often does not mean that one is also an Arab.

[Creationist Ruthless]

Do Coneheads have a law against evolution deniers?

[Pro Libertate]

happyjuggler0 is absolutely correct. Turkey is a Greek nation. It's not Istanbul, it's Constantinople. Free Byzantium!

For those keeping score, we've got Arabs, Persians, Kurds (similar to Persians/Medes), Jews, Turks, and others. Ethnically, only the Kurds and Persians and Arabs and Jews are related. I think I have that right. If not, blame the fuzz on my brain from being required to do some tax law research. For the love of Zeus, I don't know how anyone could intentionally want to do that for a living.

[Kwix]

While denying the Armenian Genocide should not be grounds for jail time, neither should affirming it, as it is currently in Turkey. If you declare that the Armenian Genocide occured, you are guilty of "Defaming National Character" and qualify for an all expenses paid trip to a Turkish Prison.

Turkey refuses to eliminate Code 301
The cases of Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink

[Captain Oever]

Kwixy, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

[Bazil]

Prolibertate "Ethnically, only the Kurds and Persians and Arabs and Jews are related."

You have that wrong.

Three main Group in the middle east:

Semites (originated from North African decent, the first inhabitants of the middle east):
Arabs
Hebrews (Jews)
Assyrians
Berbers

Indo-European: (originated from Caucus mountains Modern day Ukraine, georgia, North Black Sea region)
Armenians
Kurds
Iranians (Persians, Medes, Parthians)

Turkik:
Turks
Turkmans (More Asian ethnically)

Over the thousands of years, there has been much mixing, so there is Greek, Ethiopian, Roman Egyptian, Indian, Frankish (French from the Crusades) Russian blood mixed in. Also there are many races that have vanished and been mixed into the general populations, for example, Petrans (modern day Jordan), Egyptians, Phoenicians (Lebanese and Syrians) once had unique cultural and linguistic heritage, after Islam they became arabized.

[Yuri]

Pro Libertate has it all wrong. Jews and Arabs are both Semites. Persians are Indo-Europeans. Kurds are Altaians (sp?).
Turks are Asiatic-Mongolian and Greeks are Indo-Europeans.

[Yuri]

I did make a coupole of mistakes, I admit. Bazil is right. Pro Libertate is still wrong.

[Yuri]

I did make a couple of mistakes, I admit. Bazil is right. Pro Libertate is still wrong.

[Jennifer]

I kind of agree with the French on keeping Turkey out of the EU if they continue denying their past. You can't undo the past, but to completely deny past atrocities implies an unwillingness to take responsibility for them.

[bazil]

Just for the record, although I've seen multiple credible sources that support the notion that thousands of Armenians were killed without trials in point blank by Ottoman Turkish troops, it would be inaccurate to imply that the campaign was directed towards Armenians alone.

The Ottoman empire along with its allies Germany, and Austro-Hungarian empire were losing the war (World War I) in that climate the Ottoman generals, either under orders from Istanbul or on their own accord decided to PUNISH the ungrateful and treasonase subject people. Syrians, Armenians, Kurds, among many groups got massacared by bands of beaten demoralized and viciously angry Turkish military units.

The movie "Lawrence of Arabia" depicts this period and how the British got the Arabs to side with them and attack their Turkish overlords rather excellently.

There definately was a genoside, but it certainly wasn't a Armenian only issue. Yet, it bears mentioning that Armenians were the only Christian subject nation under the ottoman rule.

Interesting tidbit, the Ottomans who were Sunni gave ascendency to the Sunni Arabs (forefathers to the Baath party) in what is now Iraq since they were deemed more loyal to the Ottamans than the Shiite was too much aligned with Iran and the Kurds too unwieldingly independent.

[Pro Libertate]

I wasn't getting into the whole mess, but I understood that the Kurds were fairly closely related to the same stock that the Persians came from (the Medes and other groups from that region). And I believe that I said that the Arabs and Jews were related. I didn't want to get into the various other groups in the region, just because my knowledge of them was and is limited.

Obviously, whenever ethnicity discussions come up, the amount of intermixing is highly relevant. Heck, there's a significant amount of Celtish blood in Asia Minor!

[ChrisO]

There definately was a genoside, but it certainly wasn't a Armenian only issue. Yet, it bears mentioning that Armenians were the only Christian subject nation under the ottoman rule.

Not so. In fact there were still millions of Greeks living in Anatolia at that point, and they were massacred along with the Armenians, though most were sent packing to Greece proper after the formation of the modern Turkish state. The whole WWI era in Anatolia was a murderous, barbarous affair. Of course, Greece had designs on reconquering much of Anatolia and actually held the area around Izmir (Smyrna) for a time, which had a large Greek population.

[joe]

OK, I give up, Dave.

Why is it ironic for the French to use the Armenian genocide to keep Turkey out of the EU?

[Pro Libertate]

What's funny is that Turkey seemed to be getting more European until recently. Maybe they need a pop in the jaw or two prior to admission. Denying a murderous past to the extent of prosecuting people for talking about it is a wee bit outside the western ideal. We just prosecute you for denying it in the first place.

I'd like to see another condition imposed on the Turks, too. Play nice with the Kurds.

[RexRhino]

I kind of agree with the French on keeping Turkey out of the EU if they continue denying their past. You can't undo the past, but to completely deny past atrocities implies an unwillingness to take responsibility for them.

You are missing the point. The French could care less about Turkey denying their past. They could care less about the Armenian genocide. What they care about is keeping muslims out of the Europe, and this is a wedge issue that they can exploit to do it.

If the Turks took full responsiblity for the Armenian genocide, and agreed to pay generous reperations, people would find some other issue, because the real goal is making Turkey isn't in the EU.

[Pro Libertate]

Actually, I think RexRhino is right about the real motivations here. Anti-Muslim feelings have a whole lot more to do with this than any considerations about Turkey's aptness for EU admission.

[andy]

"I kind of agree with the French on keeping Turkey out of the EU if they continue denying their past."

I agree with keeping Turkey out of the EU because they're muslims, but your reason is more pallatable to the PC police.

[andy]

"I kind of agree with the French on keeping Turkey out of the EU if they continue denying their past."

I agree with keeping Turkey out of the EU because they're muslims, but your reason is more pallatable to the PC police.

[andy]

"I kind of agree with the French on keeping Turkey out of the EU if they continue denying their past."

I agree with keeping Turkey out of the EU because they're muslims, but your reason is more pallatable to the PC police.

[andy]

I'm a vegetarian, but those server-squirrels are going to end up in a stew on my plate.

[Shem]

I must admit to being somewhat sympathetic to those who want to keep Turkey out for the time being. They have no ability to secure their borders, and with the rights of free travel between EU countries, just letting Turkey in would be like throwing the doors to the Middle East wide open. They already have problems assimilating immigrant populations; how much worse would it be if anyone and his brother could just walk in?

[Ron]

Pro Libertate: You had a tax question?

[Jennifer]

Nice try, Andy, but I don't give a damn that the Turks are Muslim. I do, however, find it disturbing that they still deny the genocide in their past.

[Aresen]

Jennifer

I don't think denying the past is sufficient reason, but prosecuting people for telling the truth about it is beyond the pale.

[Ron]

Rex is right. The French are not motivated by high moral principals. Who would ever take them seriously after their complicity in the Rwandan genocide is beyond me.

[Pro Libertate]

Why yes, Ron, I did. How many minutes of tax law can Pro Libertate perform before he attempts to slit his wrists with a highlighter? It's okay, I know the answer now.

[Robert Goodman]

If it'll get me into some club I want to join, I'll admit to slaughtering Armenians myself. I'll even promise to slaughter the rest of them if that's what it takes. I mean, if slaughtering Armenians past, present, or future is such a good thing that they want to make it a qualification, as seems to be the case. Only out-of-the-closet Armenian slaughterers need apply? Like I should give a shit? Who's still alive who'd be copping to murder?

[Grand Chalup]

You are missing the point. The French could care less about Turkey denying their past. They could care less about the Armenian genocide. What they care about is keeping muslims out of the Europe,

You say that like there's something wrong with it.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

none of my Armenian friends has forgotten about the extermination of their relatives.

[Pro Libertate]

I believe there's a good number of Armenians in France, too. This legislation sounds like it's just fun and games by the opposition party and unlikely to pass, but the fact remains that France really does oppose Turkey's entry into the E.U.

Wasn't Yossarian of Armenian descent? That somehow seems relevant here.

[Wally the bird]

Do you want to know who was one of the biggist instigators for the HOLICAST it was CHARLES DARWIN

[Grand Chalupa]

Do you want to know who was one of the biggist instigators for the HOLICAST it was CHARLES DARWIN

Yea, but, um.....what?

[M]

Diss I gotta see!

[M]

Oh, I get it. I thought it meant that genocide is a routine, healthy instance of survival-of-the-fittest. Now I see it means Hitler drew on Darwin. I mistook "instigator" for "explicator".

Survival of, but not prevalence by, the dyslexic.

[mac]

I can't get so upset about these so-called infringements of free speech. In this country, as in most others, libel is a crime. It is not protected speech. Holocaust denial is not very different from libel, in either intent or effect. It's basically a way of accusing all Jews (or Armenians) of being liars.

The notion that special cases aren't necessary, and some blanket law should apply. Well, the laws of the universe are not generally on the US books .... with the notable exception of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

[Ataturk]

I didn't expect some kind of Armenian legislation.

[beefair]

There are so many points to clarify and I do not know where to start. First of all, so called "genocide" happened in 1915-1916 and during that time it was the Ottomans that in power not the Turkish Republic, second genocide is a very specific word for a very specific action: "the final solution". There is no way, in an empire as vast as The Ottoman Empire, to exterminate an entire race. It is impossible, as for the exile, it is true that the Armenians were exiled. It is also true that from time to time the Ottoman troops (mostly Kurdish in fact) did kill the Armenians indiscriminatly. OK they were vicious people, out of vengeance ('cause, the Armenians together with the Russians attacked to the Ottoman troops) they did what they did. But "genocide" no, that's something else.

[Ro]

beefair: If the "trail of tears" was genocide, as I think it is generally accepted to be, how is what was done to the Armenians any different?

[Ron]

beefair: Another question--if in fact the Turkish Republic had nothing to do with the Armenian "exile", why are they so touchy about the subject? I've never understood this. Isn't the proper response, "Oh, it was those dastardly Turkish Imperialists whom we replaced".

[Ron]

To answer my own question, by doing some googling, it appears to have a lot to do with the issue of reparations.

[RememberenceOfInternetsPast]

Sedar Argic, where are you now?

[RememberenceOfInternetsPast]

Sedar Argic, where are you now?

[Azer]

Why nobody talk about Armenian genoside against Azerbaijani people. During last 18 years armenians killed thousands of Azerbaijani people. Armenians were destroying whole cities and killing all citizens.
At night from February 25 to 26 1992 the Armenian armed forces occupied the town of Khojaly. Occupation of Khojaly was followed with unprecedented brutalities against the civilian population. In a few hours the aggressors killed 613 innocent and unarmed people. Among them were 106 women, 83 children. 56 people were killed with special brutality. 8 families were totally exterminated. 25 children were totally, and 130 children were partly orphaned. 476 people became disabled persons (of them 76 were minors). 1275 people were taken into hostage and even though afterwards most of the hostages were released from captivity, the fates of 150 of them are still unknown.

for photos and more information visit http://www.khojaly.org/