The United States: OK, I Guess, But It Would be Better if It Were More Like Mexico

The whole irony of this Mexicans immigrating to the U.S. thing, as Heather MacDonald points out over at City Journal, is that in many ways, America is a more congenial and decent country--overall a better place to live!

But wait, that's apparently not her point at all in this account of how tough Mexico can be on immigrants or visitors--she wants us to emulate Mexico's harsher-than-ours attitude toward summarily deporting people who piss them off:

If Mexico wants to dictate our immigration policy to us, let's follow their example to the letter. That example is particularly relevant on this further day of protests demanding amnesty for illegals. Among the demonstrators in at least 60 cities nationwide will undoubtedly be thousands of border lawbreakers. What would Mexico do? The answer is easy: deport them on the spot. In 2002, a dozen American college students, in Mexico legally, participated peacefully in an environmental protest against a planned airport outside of Mexico City. They swiftly found themselves deported as law-breakers for interfering in Mexico's internal affairs.

If Mexico was willing to strip these students of their duly-obtained travel visas, imagine what it would have done had the students broken into the country surreptitiously--not just summary deportation but undoubtedly howls of complaint to the U.S. government for winking at this double violation of Mexican sovereignty.

She admires their elites ruthless pursuit of perceived self-interest; the interests of any individual American hiring, or benefiting from the services provided by the hiring, or selling anything to any immigrant of whatever legal status don't seem to be in the balance.

Comments

[fyodor]

From what I've gathered (without doing any research per se) there seems little doubt that the Mexican government's respective stances on what our policy should be for their emmigrants versus their own policy toward their own immigrants is rather hypocritical.

But of course it's silly to think that should effect our own policy. Two stupidities don't make an intelligence.

[Ed]

That's it. I'm never moving to Mexico. You've spoiled my dream.

[metalgrid]

Deportations for some and miniature Mexican flags for others!

[Anonopotomous]

I am going to slap the next person who equates a country's government with the people who happened born there.

The Mexican government aggresively deports people? We'll show those Mexicans!

The USSR wants to nuke us? Those damn Russkies!

[Anonopotomous]

I'm going to slap the next person that equates a county's government to the people who only happen to have been born there.

[Anonopotomous]

On a related note to my quasi-double post... am I the only one who gets manhandled by Moveable Type's comment script?

[Thomas Paine's Goiter]

I agree with the senitment only when the discussion is framed around the Mexican government funding, interceeding and encouraging the rabble-rousing.

[Grant Gould]

Anonopotomous, you are clearly a dangerous anarchist.

Don't you know that for the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness citizens are instituted by governments, deriving their meager powers from the consent of the government? And that when the citizens become destructive of these ends it is the right and duty of the government to abolish them?

Why, citizens morally prior to their own governments would be anarchy and chaos!

[Arizona libertarians collabora]

Here's another Heather MacDonald article: Mexico?s Undiplomatic Diplomats. That provides example after example of how that country has meddled in our internal politics.

Mexico's own human rights commission also admits that they mistreat illegal aliens from Central America.

We shouldn't be like Mexico on immigration, but it's certainly interesting that the Dems, libertarians, and even some Republicans are supporting foreigners marching in our streets demanding rights to which they aren't entitled.

That's an extremely dangerous situation for a country to be in. We're forced to either capitulate to their demands or face the consequences.

The U.S. has every legal right to deport as many illegal aliens as it wants, as long as it's done lawfully.

If the U.S. is almost physically unable to deport foreign citizens who've come here illegally, haven't we basically lost control of our country?

If you think that's not true, then tell me how we could deport even a few million illegal aliens without massive turmoil and perhaps losing parts of a couple major cities.

And, if libertarian commentators aren't willing to discuss or readily dismiss the possible downsides to their proposals, should anyone take anything they say seriously?

[usual]

Dey Took R JobS!

[SR]

Lonewacko, based on the description in the post on your blog, it sounds more accurate to say that a Mexican government official is collaborating with Libertarians. The "Filosophia de la Libertad" (which you have misspelled on your website as "Philosophia") is a project of the International Society for Individual Liberty. You can see the Spanish language flash animation here: http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction-spanish.html The themes in the animation are so libertarian as to verge on anarchocapitalism, so I'm very amused to hear that a government official is promoting it.

[Beaner]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
As long as they are not brown and eat beans.

[James B.]

There's an e-mail going around some Conservative circles that lists all the different ways that Mexico os tough and mean to immigrants and non-citizens: they can't own land, they can't ever become members of the gov't, the can't become clergy!?!

I don't know if it's true or just Freepers making stuff up, but if it's the real deal, maybe it explains part of the reason that Mexico is so F*cked up and one of the reasons America is the shining beacon that it is is beacuse we actually will let motivated immigrants at least try to achive the American Dream.

[shecky]

This is a line of thinking that some anti immigration types have floated recently. I doubt it's well thought out, or will be taken too seriously by anyone, as it's an argument that the US become at least as crappy a country as Mexico. Yeah, that'll show 'em.

[Ken Shultz]

Whenever I see someone advocate emulating the stupidity of their opposition as if it was ingenious , and I see people do it all the time, it always makes me think that they, and society in general, could benefit mightily from a summary review of Christianity 101. ...which teaches that retribution for retribution's sake is inherently hypocritical and stupid.

Wherefore are thou Gaius?

[Kwix]

If the U.S. is almost physically unable to deport foreign citizens who've come here illegally, haven't we basically lost control of our country?

You mean like the millions of damned Irish? We see how they caused the downfall of what was once a proud Protestant nation. Oh, wait, they didn't. Well, maybe it was the millions of Italians or Germans. I can't remember, they all look the same to me.

[The Mexican police chief in "T]

Thees ees not America.

SLAM

[joe]

Why do anti-immigrant types think anybody in America gives a damn about Mexico's government? I neither admire its practices, as MacDonald assumes, nor fear their policies, as Wacko assumes.

"Did you know that a former Mexican consul helped organize the protests is Atlanta?" Wacko keeps asking. Um, so what? I don't give a crap about the Mexican government.

And stop being so chickeshit about brown people holding a protest!!

[Jose Padilla]

Let's have the immigrants duke it out with the terroists.

[Jose Padilla]

Let have the immigrants duke it out with the terrorists.

[Puffer]

Beaner,

Nor smoke dope.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Well, Kwix, the Irish didn't come here illegally.

But, yes, people don't like immigrants

Reminds me of that old WW II era ditty that my dad used to sing around the house:

Said the Okie to the Arkie
Let us go and fight Japan
We took California
And never lost a man

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Joe, you'd be mighty afeared of the Mexican government's policies iffen you was locked up in the Tijuana jail with a broken arm and nobody knew where the hell you were.

[fyodor]

Lonewacko,

So I suppose you commonly address the downside of your POV?

Utopia is not an option, there's pros and cons to everything. But your nightmarish visions are full of self-fullfilling tautologies. Yep, if bad things happen, bad things will happen. Imagine that! Must all be the brownies' fault.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Any country whose military are major-league drug smugglers can't be all bad.

[MikeP]

We shouldn't be like Mexico on immigration, but it's certainly interesting that the Dems, libertarians, and even some Republicans are supporting foreigners marching in our streets demanding rights to which they aren't entitled.

Let's see if I can itemize the rights* that citizens have that foreigners don't:

1. The right not to be deported, even if you've committed a crime
2. The right to vote
3. The right to hold elected office
4. The right to serve on a jury

That's all I can think of.

Now I haven't spent as much time reading protest signs as some others, and my Spanish is a little rusty. But I don't recall any protester asking for any of these except the first. I think they simply want the rights* to migrate where they want and to work where they want.

* Notice that the first use of 'rights' is better termed 'entitlements' -- as Lone Wacko suggests -- since they are all constructs of government. The latter use describes actual rights, existing apart from government. You remember those.... They're the things that governments are instituted to secure.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Protests break out over US Immigration policy.

Numerous protestors wave Mexican flags, including the one at Montebello High that was hoisted above an upside down US flag.

But even using color crayons and blocks, very few here can make the connection as to why Heather might talk trash about Mexico or question the brain cell count of people who live in the US and wave Mexican flags in protest of the US.

[Ken Hagler]

The Wine Commonsewer wrote:

Well, Kwix, the Irish didn't come here illegally.

That's because during the concept of legal versus illegal immigration didn't exist yet back then. People just showed up in America and went about living here, without having to kiss some bureaucrat's ring for permission.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Ken, I forgot that I have to put a disclaimer on this stuff.

I couldn't agree more (and I am an open border guy) but the anti-immigrant crowd does have one major point.

When the Irish came and when my friend Willie walked across the border in 1949 there was no such thing as social services. At least not in the sense that we know it today.

Immigrants came, they worked, they prospered (or didn't) and that was that.

And don't get me started on those got dam checkpoints on I-15 and I-5.

[Alfonso Bedoya]

Visas? We ain't got no visas. We don't need no visas. I don't have to show you any stinking visas?

[Kwix]

TWC,
Ken Hagler is correct. Until 1917 there was no restriction on any immigration into the US except two different laws that had been passed to exclude the Chinese and Japanese (1862&1907). In 1917 the US Congress Congress passed an immigration law that imposed a literacy test and created an Asiatic Barred Zone to shut out Asians. Aliens unable to meet minimum mental, moral, physical, and economic standards were excluded, as were anarchists and other so-called subversives. This is the first time that any systematic "illegal" immigrant was defined. By this time, most of the Irish, German and Italian immigrants had all been settled and all we were seeing was Eastern European peoples fleeing the Soviet advance.

[Kwix]

First of all, preview is my friend. Or if it had been I would have seen that TWC has already commented to Ken.

TWC, I fully agree that the social "saftey net" has been greatly expanded in recent years. So, the question then becomes: "Which is the real problem, Mexican's sneaking over the border, or tax money being used to feed, house and cloth them (and other less fortunate people)?"

[cynic]

If the US government caves in to the demands of these protestors for amnesty, what will it do about the next batch several years down the line? What will the demands be then?

You can say whatever you like pro or con immigration, but one thing is certain - ideas and values move the world. If you let enough people come here from a third world country, with their third world ideas and cultural values, - if you do that, then soon you will HAVE a third world country. Where will everyone want to emmigrate to then? Canada?

[John]

You are right cynic.

Joe,

About this being chickenshit about brown people marching. Okay fair enough. Lets say only 5% of the marchers are part of the La Raza crowd and the rest of them just want to be Americans. Remembering that La Raza is a fascist group dedicated to taking back the American Southwest, how would you feel if a few 100 thousadn white people marched and only about 5,000 of them were dedicated Klansman?

[joe]

TWC,

I hope you got yourself some of that 01 Columbia Crest, because it's all sold now.

Second, both Social Security and welfare were in place in 1949.

[joe]

John,

Can you find me a single act of violence that has been committed by La Raza in its entire history? Lynching Anglos, burning tacos on their lawns, that sort of thing?

Because I really don't see anything remotely similar between the most violent terror group in American history, and a national civil rights organization.

[Kwix]

If you let enough people come here from a third world country, with their third world ideas and cultural values, - if you do that, then soon you will HAVE a third world country.

What a crock of xenophobic shit! Lack of freedom and political instability make a third world country.
What you are saying is you don't like the ideas and cultural values of a small portion of the US population. The immigrant who moves here moves to be HERE, not thier homeland. They are moving to get away from thier third world hardships. What in the hell makes you think they will bring it with them? They will bring their culture and language but it will become assimilated into the culture as a whole. What, you don't like Taco Bell?

[SM]

cynic, John,

"If you let enough people come here from a third world country, with their third world ideas and cultural values"

Can you explain what these "third world values" are that so threaten to reduce our GDP to third world levels ? OUr economy takes a dive if more people eat "chile verde at home - is that about it ?

[SM]

Oops - cross posted with Kwix.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Joe, as I said, the welfare state as we know it did not exist. Social security was unavailable until 62, medicare didn't exist, food stamps didn't exist, the county housing authority didn't exist......Nearly all of the constructs of the modern welfare state that rolled forth under the guidance of LBJ (used to call him Long Blow Job when we were kids) did not exist in 1949. That is not to say that nothing was on the government table, but it was absolutely minimal.

I did get some 01 Columbia Crest, thought I mentioned it. Still have one bottle left, too.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

burning tacos on their lawns

funny stuff, Joe.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Kwix, I think we both know what the real problem is. 🙂

On another note as I recall, until around 1965 there weren't any restrictions on immigration from Mexico either.

And on yet another somewhat related note: Mrs TWC is being wine-and-dined for a 4 day conference in Cabo next month. Husbands get to go for the price of an airline ticket, which is pretty fargin' expensive compared to a Southwest ticket from San Diego to San Francisco, but I digress.

Just learned that I have to bring a got dam certified, stamped, sealed, birth certificate to get back into the USA. Supposedly, sometime in the next three years you'll have to tote a visa.

Used to be they axed you if you was an American Citizen as you crossed back over and sometimes checked your purse for drugs.

Thank you Patriot Act!

[John]

Joe,

All I can do is take La Raza at their word. For the race everything for everyone else nothing. True, they do not have the history of violence the Klan has. So, fair enough, what if 5% of the marchers were a member of an organization that wanted to ethnicly cleanse the SW United States, which is really what La Raza wants? Even if haven't ever done anythign about it, you wouldn't be disturbed by that?

Of all of the people on this thread claiming that third world poverty has nothing to do with the culture of these places and that the immigrants once here will have the same values as the we do here now, how many of you have actually been to a coutnry outside the U.S., Japan, or Europe? I think if you have and bothered to look around, you would have noticed that most of the rest of the world values community and family over individual rights much more so than the typical Westerner. Those countries are not as free as the U.S. for a lot of reasons, the governments being one, but those governments are often times a reflection of the societies they govern. It doesnt' mean the societies are injust or even for that matter objectively worse than ours, although some clearly are, but the cultures and the values are most certainly different. The idea that millions of people can move the United States from these cultures without changing American culture to look more like their own culture is nieve in the extreme.

[Isaac Bartram]

Just learned that I have to bring a got dam certified, stamped, sealed, birth certificate to get back into the USA. Supposedly, sometime in the next three years you'll have to tote a visa.

See this gem:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/regional/regional_1170.html

"The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 requires that, by January 1, 2008, travelers to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Panama, Mexico and Canada have a passport or other secure, accepted document to enter or re-enter the United States. This is a change from prior travel requirements. The goal is to strengthen border security and facilitate entry into the United States for U.S. citizens and legitimate foreign visitors. The U.S. passport is the document of choice because of the incorporated advanced security features."

WTF??!!

[Greg]

About this being chickenshit about brown people marching. Okay fair enough. Lets say only 5% of the marchers are part of the La Raza crowd and the rest of them just want to be Americans. Remembering that La Raza is a fascist group dedicated to taking back the American Southwest, how would you feel if a few 100 thousadn white people marched and only about 5,000 of them were dedicated Klansman?

A significant portion of those at Minutemen rallies are neo-Nazis. How does this make you feel about the anti-immigration crowd?

[John]

Greg,

The minutemen get a lot of bad press for that and frankly ought to kick out the Nazis before anyone takes them seriously. Considering that, is it too much to ask the immigrants to kick out La Raza and make it clear that they want to be Americans not Mexicans before they get what they want?

[cynic]

Kwix,

"What a crock of xenophobic shit! Lack of freedom and political instability make a third world country."

And what do you think causes the lack of freedom and political instability? If not a people's thoughts, feelings, and attitudes - then what? The water?! 🙂

"They will bring their culture and language but it will become assimilated into the culture as a whole. What, you don't like Taco Bell?"

Will it? Or does that not depend on how many you let in at once and where they come from?

Taco Bell? I HAVE eaten much better Mexican and Tex Mez food.

"What you are saying is you don't like the ideas and cultural values of a small portion of the US population."

Hey, I don't like the ideas and cultural values of a LARGE portion of the US population - most of which are NOT immigrants.

"The immigrant who moves here moves to be HERE, not thier homeland. They are moving to get away from thier third world hardships. What in the hell makes you think they will bring it with them? They will bring their culture and language but it will become assimilated into the culture as a whole."

"What in the hell" makes you think they will drop their most essential beliefs at the border? Have you ever moved to a new neighborhood or even a new city? Did your basic beliefs and attitudes change when you moved?
You think they want to be Americans? Then why do they wish to maintain dual citizenship? (and not just Latinos or Mexicans either) There was a time when the US required immigrants and naturalized citizens to swear allegiance to the US and forsake the "Old Country". Of course, in many circles that would now be considered "insensitive".

[Sandy]

The problem I have with the whole "social safety net makes things different now" argument is that few if any of the immigrants I've seen have availed themselves of them. Certainly the illegals tend to avoid officialdom whenever possible.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

There is some validity to the argument that newcomers bring their cultural expectations with them. It's and irony that states like Arizona and Nevada are beginning to look more like California as Californians escape from all the things they hate about California yet they bring those values with them. For example, can you imagine an Arizona governor in the Goldwater era calling for universal pre-school? That's a California value if ever there was one.

[cynic]

"If you let enough people come here from a third world country, with their third world ideas and cultural values"

Can you explain what these "third world values" are that so threaten to reduce our GDP to third world levels ? OUr economy takes a dive if more people eat "chile verde at home - is that about it ?

Comment by: SM at April 13, 2006 04:09 PM

_________________________________

There is a lot more to being a third world country than just having a low GDP. What about the political system that causes that low GDP? Who or what do you think keeps that system in place? What caused it to arise in the first place? All "True" libertarians (I use the term sarcasticly) seem to think that government is the cause of all the world's problems, but they forget, or do not wish to admit, that it is an EFFECT and not only a cause.

Third World values? I can think of several that are common among Latinos whether they are Mexicans or other Central and South Americans.

One, for starters, is how they treat their women. Their attitude toward them is not unlike that of the Middle Eastern or Muslim countries: keep them barefoot and pregnant - second class citizen status. Only important when you've an itch to scratch or when you're bragging to your buddies about your manhood.

Two. Machismo in general. I'm not fond of cultural attitudes that seem to endorse chasing an unarmed man for a block and stabbing him to death because he said something nasty about one's mother or sister. I'm not fond of people who don't control their emotions. Either control yourself, or some authoritarian government will.

Three. Community and "family" above the freedom of the individual. Want to be free? You're never free of your relatiives - not even if they are lowlifes.

Four. Allegiance to some nutjob in the Vatican who thinks he's God's infallible voice - on - earth. Be fruitful and multiply! Even if you can't support them. And even if your own country no longer has room for them. God or the Pope (same thing?) says you have a moral right to go and overcrowd some other country. Besides, you got to prove that you're real man, right? Make eight or nine kids. Holy Mother Church needs some more subjects regardless of poverty. Hey! Maybe poverty is GOOD thing -- poor starving people are much more likely to stay on their knees and obey the Holy Father!

But no, values and beliefs aren't important; it only matters what one eats.

Actually? If I had MY way about it? I'd cut off immigration from ALL countries. Period. We already have enough people. In fact, we had enough people thirty years ago, regardless of what that fat piece of trash Senator from Mass. thinks or thought back then.

[cynic]

The Wine Common Sewer,?

Hey, some of us wouldn't be too broken-hearted, if the land-of-fruits-and-nuts fell off the continent and sank into the ocean. 😉
And all those good californian liberals,...why are they fleeing that diverse paradise - don't they like brown-skinned people? Or maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the color of their skin. Yeah, probably not - liberals are NEVER racist - especially not the brown-skinned ones.

[fyodor]

The minutemen get a lot of bad press for that and frankly ought to kick out the Nazis before anyone takes them seriously. Considering that, is it too much to ask the immigrants to kick out La Raza and make it clear that they want to be Americans not Mexicans before they get what they want?

So...the minutemen kicking out Nazis is equivalent to "the immigrants" kicking out La Raza?? Parellel construction in your writing, but very unparellel in real life. In case it's not already obvious why, "the immigrants" are not a club who can control who joins. Maybe it's not even so easy for the minutemen to control their ranks (for instance, the Nazis might be able to get together and form their own units and keep calling themselves minutemen), but regardless of how feasible it might be for the minutemen, it's a much different story for immigrants. That said, maybe immigrant reform leaders could do more to distance themselves from La Raza. Maybe they already do plenty, I actually don't know. But it would probably not be possible to kick them out of mass protests. Anyway, plenty of the protesters were waiving American flags.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sandy, the numbers may be less than one would expect, but I've never heard of anyone being turned away from the social service counter either.

In this state, near-free community college education is available to anyone who can prove they've lived here a year. Doesn't matter whether they moved here from San Fernando Tamaulipas or the San Fernando Valley. Citizen, Green Card, Illegal, doesn't matter.

That pisses people off, and frankly, I don't know why it's difficult to understand why some people find that annoying.

I am very aware that illegals are not the drain on the economy that others have proposed they are. But that isn't to say that there's no problem at all. In fact, in most cases the tax drain is local and the tax contributions are federal. That hardly equalizes.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Cynic, what? You don't like Californicate?

Hop in, it's a really big boat.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Here's a little something somebody emailed me just this afternoon. See if it makes you mad.

[TLB]

Let it be noted that none of the libertarians could explain exactly how we could deport even just a few million illegal aliens if we had to.

If someone knows any libertarian thinkers, could you get an answer from them and then post it here next time?

[Rich Ard]

This part made me mad,

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don?t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

Because it's bullshit.

Also, John,

The minutemen get a lot of bad press for that and frankly ought to kick out the Nazis before anyone takes them seriously.

I wouldn't worry about that.

[John]

Rich,

In their defense, you should read some of the accounts of what the ranch owners on the border go through. It is terrible. Here is Texas, ranchers just started puting out ladders in the vain hope that the illegals would use them rather than just cut the wire. The country roads near the border are unsafe to drive at night. Illegas just show up at people's homes demanding food and a ride to town. It is aweful.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

TLB, I don't think you're going to get any takers because libertarians aren't in favor of deporting illegals. Ergo, we don't care if the task is easy or monumental.

Aside from that, I think the libertarians around here couldn't exactly see the point of working out a plan to deport a million illegals. They were polite about too.

[MikeP]

Here is Texas, ranchers just started puting out ladders in the vain hope that the illegals would use them rather than just cut the wire.

Surely you know that people are going to say something like, "The only reason they have to go through the fence is because the gate is locked."

Very well...

John, the immigrant doesn't want to be on the rancher's land any more than the rancher wants him there. The immigrant would much rather show up at the border crossing, pass his background check, and get his bio-id card indicating that he is not a threat to the country and is free to travel and work within the United States.

The problem is not "immigrant": The problem is "illegal". The fix is not closing the borders even more tightly: The fix is legalization.

[MikeP]

TLB, I don't think you're going to get any takers because libertarians aren't in favor of deporting illegals. Ergo, we don't care if the task is easy or monumental.

Indeed, when one believes that one's theory of how the world works and empirical evidence on how the world works correspond very well, the fact that the task is monumental is telling.

[Rich Ard]

Here is Texas, ranchers just started puting out ladders in the vain hope that the illegals would use them rather than just cut the wire.

Heh - my dad told me a story about a shopkeep he knew who got tired of constant graffiti, and carefully marked off a wall where kids could paint to their hearts' content.

I seem to recall he said it was good for business. 🙂

[MikeP]

Let it be noted that none of the libertarians could explain exactly how we could deport even just a few million illegal aliens if we had to.

This is the police. This is the police. This is the police. I am asking you to disperse. The supply of United States has been exhausted. You must evacuate the country.
The scoops are on their way. The scoops are on their way! I repeat: The scoops are on their way.

[cynic]

TLB, I don't think you're going to get any takers because libertarians aren't in favor of deporting illegals. Ergo, we don't care if the task is easy or monumental.

Comment by: The Wine Commonsewer at April 13, 2006 11:16 PM

Which libertarians? The "true" libertarians?

[joe]

John, just making sure someone calls you on your silly-assed description of La Raza as "fascists" who want to "ethnically clease America."

Puny, right wing minds make up the most ridiculous demons.

La Raza is a civil rights group that fights anti-Latino discrimination.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Used to be they axed you if you was an American Citizen as you crossed back over and sometimes checked your purse for drugs.
Those fuckers tried to take away my stuffed raccoon!

Certainly the illegals tend to avoid officialdom whenever possible.
I get the impression that that's the case in Mexico, too. As near as I can tell Mexico is relatively 'libertarian' in a lot of ways, but turns into classic Randian 'looters' as you move up the totem pole.
IOW, if one interacts with Mexican officialdom, one is more likely to end up with an empty wallet than a welfare handout.

Here's a little something somebody emailed me just this afternoon. See if it makes you mad.
A little mad at our gov't.

FWIW, I've actually changed my mind on the "immigration issue." At first I was against amnesty programs and such because it short-changed the people who immigrated legally (or tried to), or who didn't happen to live in a country sharing a border with the U.S. Now I see those as statist concerns, and see the immigration issue as something akin to the WOD, i.e. the cure is worse than the disease.

[rob]

"John, the immigrant doesn't want to be on the rancher's land any more than the rancher wants him there. The immigrant would much rather show up at the border crossing, pass his background check, and get his bio-id card indicating that he is not a threat to the country and is free to travel and work within the United States." - Mike P

So add to that the idea that if you're an illegal who skipped the process described in the paragraph above and 1) you are caught by the INS (whose numbers can be radically reduced if we go with the plan above) but 2) aren't guilty of any other crime than illegal entry into the country then 3) you're given a bio-ID card, required to check in with your INS case worker periodically and you get one year to learn passable English. (This of course, also requires that we legislate English as the official language of the country.) Failure to assimilate = deportation after a year of English classes.

This ensures that most people who illegally enter the country are doing so because they can't pass the background check, and even those who can't skip the background check but are really just here to work and want to live here get a legitimate shot at doing so.

And that's the solution.

The reality is that the US is a big, clanking machine that NEEDS immigration to keep it up and running - and away from becoming Europe with its non-replenishing birth rate.

"John, just making sure someone calls you on your silly-assed description of La Raza as 'fascists' who want to 'ethnically clease America.'
Puny, right wing minds make up the most ridiculous demons. La Raza is a civil rights group that fights anti-Latino discrimination." - joe

You know what? In John's defense, I still think that much like other protests, there are plenty of nut-jobs and bad guys filling out their ranks. In this case, it's mostly MEChA, The Brown Berets de Aztlan, OLA (Organization for the Liberation of Aztlan), La Raza Unida Party, and the "Nation of Aztlan" types who actually think that they can take back the Southwest from the US. Confusing La Raza with La Raza Unida Party isn't that big of a mistake. Maybe La Raza should change its name to separate itself from the wing-nuts a bit better? Just thinkin'...

And of course there are the white supremacist nut-jobs everyone is already familiar with. That should be no surprise - those idiots gather around issues like like immigration like stink on manure.

I wonder if in joe's world it's ONLY white people do are stupid in this fashion, because in my experience people are people, regardless of race, and prone to be just as crazy and racist regardless of country of origin.

[rob]

Did I also mention that the solution I advocate is WAY cheaper than hiring every man, woman and child to man our Southern border while terrorists actually prefer the Canadian border 5 to 1? Just sayin'...

[cynic]

"I wonder if in joe's world it's ONLY white people do are stupid in this fashion, because in my experience people are people, regardless of race, and prone to be just as crazy and racist regardless of country of origin."

No, in Joe's world it is only white Republicans and non-Democrats who are stupid and evil.