If I Admitted It, It Can't Be Illegal
The other day, President Bush called it "amazing" to be accused of breaking the law by authorizing the NSA's warrantless wiretaps. "If I wanted to break the law," he asked during a speech at Kansas State University, "why was I briefing Congress?"
First of all, he wasn't "briefing Congress." He was briefing eight members of Congress, and exactly how much they knew about the surveillance is a matter of dispute. They were, in any case, not at liberty to discuss this classified information with anyone else, let alone bring the matter up for a vote. Bush was not asking for permission, even by silent acquiescence; quite the contrary, he insists that such permission was not necessary. He may sincerely believe that, which would explain why he was willing to tell congressional leaders and four members of the House and Senate intelligence committees about the program. He may sincerely believe he has the constitutional authority as president to do whatever he thinks is necessary to fight terrorism, even when it requires flouting the explicit will of Congress, as expressed in statutes such as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the recently passed ban on torture. But that does not mean he's right.
On that question, it's encouraging that conservative commentator Bruce Fein, who served in the Justice Department in the Reagan administration, continues to sharply criticize the Bush administration's legal defenses of the wiretaps, saying the "justifications oscillate between the risible and the chilling." It is equally encouraging that The Washington Tmes continues to run columns by critics of Bush's power grabs such as Fein and Nat Hentoff (and me), along with plenty of predictable defenses.
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"If I wanted to break the law," he asked during a speech at Kansas State University, "why was I briefing Congress?"
Cuz you stoopit.
and you fugly
Where exactly is it written that the president has the power to tell Congress what they can and cannot discuss amongst themselves? Or was that part of the AUMF too?
For the last time, people... we are at war!
Good people are fighting to protect your freedom! This is no time to be arguing about your freedoms!
I think this guy would fold under questioning.
show him a water board and the whole sordid scheme will be exposed.
President punk? Yep. Didn't anyone tell hin to let his mouthpiece speak for him?
Really really nice voting faithbased duuuhbyaists!!!
This HAS to be the dimmest mow ron to ever occupy the oval office!!!
Now that Canada is a red state will he give away the deed to the USA to the wily new leader north of the border?
Well, so much for the idea of a rational discussion of the application of the SCOTUS decision in Hamdi in the context of the statutory exception to FISA.
I'll check back later.
Gold Star for Stephen Macklin!
Yep "brownie ..er..stephen..you're doin' a heck of a job!"
Your client already confessed on teevee, sorry stephen, it's not your fault.
Well, so much for the idea of a rational discussion of the application of the SCOTUS decision in Hamdi in the context of the statutory exception to FISA.
I'll check back later.
When you check back later, perhaps you'd care to let us know what you think about the issue yourself? I'd be interested to know, quite frankly, and maybe it will actually start the rational discussion you seek! Pissing on the thread for not behaving the way you want it to sure won't.
So who are the 8 members of congress he "briefed"? I mean, that's so weak. Saying "I briefed congress" when what he really did was tell 8 members, who were placed under extraordinarily strict rules to not mention it to anyone else. If they disapproved of his actions, what was their recourse? Could they refuse to attend the "briefings"?
Personally, I'm surprised these wily politicians weren't paranoid enough to think they were being set up to take a fall.
You're absolutely right about the Washington Times. My opinion of that newspaper is very low indeed, but it's good to see that it's allowing a real debate of this issue.
Would it be unfair to say that the Washington Times editorial page is allowing more dissent on this issue than the Wall Street Journal editorial page? I don't read the WSJ editorials consistently enough to say.
Amaingdrx,
The language of the SCOTUS ruling in Hamdi v Rumsfeld statesthat the AUMF authorizes "fundamental indents of war." Certainly, capturing enemy communications would fall under "fundamental indents of war."
The FISA statute contains an exception for intelligence activities authorized by an act of congress. If the SCOTUS interpretation and application of the AUMFHamdi also coves the NSA terrorist surveillance, it wold appear to meet the requirement as an exception to FISA.
If that is the case, what exactly did Bush confess?
Personally, I'm surprised these wily politicians weren't paranoid enough to think they were being set up to take a fall.
At least one was: Jay Rockefeller's private memo to Cheney
Stephen,
How is something established as enemy communications until after the fact, though? Doesn't probable cause have to be established before communications can be monitored or intercepted?
I'm not disputing your findings, but it would help me to understand further under what circumstances warrantless taps can take place and why we should be OK with this.
Stephen did you see the NSA official in full military regalia on teevee yesterday?
He repeatedly denied that the 4th amendment said anything about "probable cause". While claiming that they certainly understood the 4th amendment there at the NSA!
Claiming a get out of the 4th amendment free card...because of the war on terror doesn't wash. Not even when your client issues an executive order.
We are a nation of laws, not tyranny.
The FISA law has plenty of wiggle room to prevent a mushroom cloud over an american city.
Maybe randon searches of shipping containers entering US ports would be more effective than warrantless spying in preventing terrorism?
Or border control? Or standardized thumbprint ID that would prevent any terrorist from getting US documents, like driver's licenses, hazmat trucking permits, pilot training and licenses....and on and on.
Your client has not pursued real homeland security. Instead he has used it as an excuse for Rove to set up a swiftboating domestic spying system to surveil his political enemies list.
A hifh tech tricky dick nixon rat fucking fishing expedition, at the expense of the US constitution.
Hey, hey guys, remember that one time, when we impeached Clinton for lying about his personal life?
Hehey kip, good one.
Can't wait to hear you all squeal when president hillary is googling your data stream.
Based on what has been reported in the media and what the administration has said (insert large grain of salt), they are listening to international calls to and from known or suspected terrorists. So they start from a reasonable suspicion.
As for the acceptability of warrantless wiretaps, that line would have to be where "fundamental incident's of war" ends. And only in regards to international intelligence gathering activities.
If a known or suspected terrorists calls a number in the U.S. I don't have an issue with the government monitoring that call. I also don't have an issue with the government monitoring that number for outgoing international calls, even without a warrant. And based on court rulings, I don't think the law has an issue with that either.
Stephen,
OK, then the next question is who would qualify as a suspected terrorist? Does a criteria exist or is it a judgment call? If the latter, who makes the judgment and can their judgment be reviewed?
SPD,
I cannot claim to know the specific inner workings of our intelligence agencies, and I would imagine that if there is a specific U.S. Government objective standard of what qualifies as a terrorist it's fairly closely guarded. Other wise it would become a nice primer on how to avoid suspicion and detection.
I would expect that it is a judgement call though at precisely what level that decision is made and reviewed I, like anyone else, would only be guessing.
The entire program does undergo regular review by administration and justice department lawyers (insert large grain of salt) and was in fact suspended temporarily to address DOJ concerns.
Stephen,
I believe I've read that FISA's act of Congress exception only lasted for 15 days? Or at least that was the case based on a Congressional declaration of law. It's hard to imagine the FISA statute would treat any other Congressional exception (other than a direct reversal of FISA's provisions, which AUMF clearly wasn't) more permissively than a declaration of war. Anyway, if fighting "terrorism" is covered under AUMF, then it's effectively a reversal of FISA since the fight against terrorism should reasonably be expected to be endless, and I don't think there's any reason to think that was Congress's intent. Rather it was simply to go get Afghanistan. Okay, and maybe Bin Laden. If Bush restricted this to people seen as having been involved in 9/11, I think there'd be a greater justification. But to fight terrorism in general, it seems a lot harder to call that a war power.
Anyway, thanks for weighing in.
The bottom line is that it comes down to whether or not you accept that the state would engage in a goal driven activity or if you believe they would only use the goal as a cover for something more nefarious.
If you can accept that the government would design and run an intelligence gathering operation with the goal of capturing information about terrorist activities, and that decisions made within that operation are based on the achievement of that objective, then you probably don't have a problem with what they are doing at NSA.
If it is your belief that this, or any administration, would use intelligence gathering in the war on terror as a cover to get information an anybody and everybody, then you probably have a problem with the NSA.
Stephen,
It's just that I kept being reminded of the FBI wiretapping people like Martin Luther King and wondering what the *real* reason was. That kind of paranoia drives my mistrust of anyone who so much power being able to wield it without the necessary checks and balances.
The bottom line is that it comes down to whether or not you accept that the state would engage in a goal driven activity or if you believe they would only use the goal as a cover for something more nefarious
Actually, there is a third option. My concern is that they are doing the former, while not doing enough to prevent someone from doing the latter.
I apologize for the length of this quote, but I remembered it from Good Will Hunting and found it eerily appropriate:
"Why shouldn't I work for the N.S.A.? That's a tough one, but I'll give it a shot. Say I'm working at N.S.A. Somebody puts a code on my desk, something nobody else can break. So I take a shot at it and maybe I break it. And I'm real happy with myself, 'cause I did my job well.
But maybe that code was the location of some rebel army in North Africa or the Middle East. Once they have that location, they bomb the village where the rebels were hiding and fifteen hundred people I never had a problem with get killed. Now the politicians are sayin', "Send in the marines to secure the area" 'cause they don't give a shit.
It won't be their kid over there, gettin' shot. Just like it wasn't them when their number was called, 'cause they were pullin' a tour in the National Guard. It'll be some guy from Southie takin' shrapnel in the ass. And he comes home to find that the plant he used to work at got exported to the country he just got back from. And the guy who put the shrapnel in his ass got his old job, 'cause he'll work for fifteen cents a day and no bathroom breaks.
Meanwhile my buddy from Southie realizes the only reason he was over there was so we could install a government that would sell us oil at a good price. And of course the oil companies used the skirmish to scare up oil prices so they could turn a quick buck. A cute little ancillary benefit for them but it ain't helping my buddy at two-fifty a gallon. And naturally they're takin' their sweet time bringin' the oil back, and maybe even took the liberty of hiring an alcoholic skipper who likes to drink martinis and play slalom with the icebergs, and it ain't too long 'til he hits one, spills the oil and kills all the sea life in the North Atlantic.
So my buddy's out of work and he can't afford to drive, so he's got to walk to the job interviews, which sucks 'cause the shrapnel in his ass is givin' him chronic hemorrhoids. And meanwhile he's starvin' 'cause every time he tries to get a bite to eat the only blue plate special they're servin' is North Atlantic scrod with Quaker State.
So what do I think? I'm holdin' out for somethin' better. Why not just shoot my buddy, take his job and give it to his sworn enemy, hike up gas prices, bomb a village, club a baby seal, hit the hash pipe and join the National Guard? I could be elected president."
Qbryzan,
What stopped them before 9/11 and the president's executive order?
The technology and infrastructure for this kind of surveillance did not spring into existence on 9/12. Either there are safeguards and reviews built into the system to prevent abuse or there are none.
If they were in place before the executive order, I doubt the order specified that they proceed with complete disregard for civil liberties.
SPD,
If I may offer a re-write:
Let's you don't don't give me that job at the NSA and there's this code that they just can break. And this code gets used to pass messages around between a bunch of terrorists is some village somewhere. One day that code gets used to send a message to guy in Boston. This guy he gets the message and goes and blows himself up in a car bomb outside some Starbucks in Beacon Hill.
How do you like those apples?
What stopped them before 9/11 and the president's executive order?
My concern is for oversight, which ostensibly is what FISA provides for. It's the "warrantless" part that bothers me. I just can't help but think that a lack of judicial oversight in an invitation to abuse.
If a known or suspected terrorists calls a number in the U.S. I don't have an issue with the government monitoring that call. I also don't have an issue with the government monitoring that number for outgoing international calls, even without a warrant. And based on court rulings, I don't think the law has an issue with that either.
Why is that? Could it be that it's because there is already probable cause to suspect that the "suspected terrorist" is plotting a crime?
It's not like "probable cause" is some mountain of a standard that LEO's strain to overcome the burden of.
Linked is a table, released by the federal court system, showing just how easy it already was to get a wiretap:
http://www.uscourts.gov/wiretap04/Table7-04.pdf
From 1994-2004, there were around 13,000 or so wiretap requests, and, by my count, 4 were denied.
The FISA court, while considerably less transparent, is reported to be similarly easy on the government, perhaps more so.
I can only ask, if it's that damn easy to get one, why is the admin griping that it's so hard?
With a success rate that high already, there can be no legitimate reason why bypassing the warrant requirement is necessary. It strikes me that the only reason the govt could want this power is so they can abuse it. Because when they really have evidence of a crime, they get their wiretap every time.
Stephen,
Well, as long as we're dealing with hypotheticals, that's a valid argument, too.
I would agree that the potential for abuse exists. My point is that if the administration (any administration) would abuse the technology, they wouldn't need 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse.
I would agree that the potential for abuse exists. My point is that if the administration (any administration) would abuse the technology, they wouldn't need 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse.
Agreed, but I didn't say that it was an excuse. And I'm not saying that the system has been abused, since I have little to no way of actually knowing if it has or not. All I am saying is that I am concerned about the lack of warrants, and the abuse that can result, whether past, present or future.
If you can accept that the government would design and run an intelligence gathering operation with the goal of capturing information about terrorist activities, and that decisions made within that operation are based on the achievement of that objective, then you probably don't have a problem with what they are doing at NSA.
If it is your belief that this, or any administration, would use intelligence gathering in the war on terror as a cover to get information an anybody and everybody, then you probably have a problem with the NSA.
Are you suggesting a motive based Constitution? It's okay to violate, um...I dunno, the Second Amendment, for instace, it just depends on the government's motives or goals? Really, I'm not following.
(We're ignoring the question of whether the President broke the law, just for the sake of argument, right?)
I would agree that the potential for abuse exists. My point is that if the administration (any administration) would abuse the technology, they wouldn't need 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse.
9/11 isn't the excuse for abusing it. Rather, the invocation of 9/11 is the public relations gambit that creates the political climate for getting away with abusing it.
What they're going to abuse is the non-reviewability of their decisions. With the third branch of government out of the picture, they'll be free to wallow in their own crapulence.
I just went back and re-read the original reporting and the FSIA court has been/is included in the every 45 days review of the program.
Stephen,
You seem to be saying that the only safeguard against abuse is to elect good people. And in a certain sense that's true. The men (and women) with the guns, and those they take orders from, can ultimately do anything they want, and no piece of paper will necessarily stop them. Still, since our system operates on the philosophy that we're a nation of laws and not of people, pieces of paper do matter, because perhaps there's always enough people with guns who respect those pieces of paper that those who don't are kept in check.
Anyway, being that our nation is run on laws and being that we don't ever trust anyone so implicity that we give them a free pass to do whatever they like, we pass laws to limit the chances of abuse. FISA is one such law. That it is not an absolute guarantee against abuse by itself does not mean we should not care when one of those ostensibly good men we elected chooses to ignore it.
Am I addressing your point? Not really sure...
I guess Macklin's point is if we assume the government has our best interests at heart and is doing everything they do with an eye toward defeating the terrorists, then the government has our best interests at heart and is doing everything they do with an eye toward defeating the terrorists? And what was stopping the White House prior to 9/11 from doing this? Well, nothing, apparently, if you believe the articles recently that say some of this started shortly after Bush took office, and prior to 9/11. And nothing was stopping prior administrations from doing it either, other than an apparent general interest in not breaking this particular law and not abusing the Constitution in this particular way. And more generally, no law stops anyone from doing anything-- laws provide for punishment after the fact. Which is what we are dealing with here-- we know what they have done, and are doing, the questions is whether they get away with it. The logical conclusion of any argument in Bush's favor is inevitably that there simply are NO limits on the executive that mean anything. That cannot possibly be what the Framers intended, and, in fact, it was not.
Which is what we are dealing with here-- we know what they have done, and are doing, the questions is whether they get away with it.
You're right, of course, the question is about the rule of law.
...but there is a larger question having to do with the President's competence. I'm yet to see anyone explain why the President didn't ask for changes in the law. Why did he leave himself open to this scrutiny?
Secrecy News is reporting that congress offered the Bush administration the opportunity to relax the FISA standard for obtaining a warrant from "probable cause" to "reasonable suspicion". At that time, the administration said the proposal was unnecessary, and possibly unconstitutional.
Link Glenn Greenwald's blog with discussion of the contradiction between their stance then and now.
Alberto Gonzales was interviewed by NPR (the broadcast was yesterday) and he was asked some of the same questions posed earlier in this thread.
Who would qualify as a suspected terrorist? Gonzales cited as an example a member of Al Queda, or an American calling a member of Al Queda on the phone.
Do criteria exist or is it a judgment call? Gonzales said it was a judgement call made by experienced professional intelligence analysts, not political hires.
If the latter, who makes the judgment and can their judgment be reviewed? He said there is no need to review their judgement, because they don't get it wrong, and he's not going to explain how the judgement is made or what criteria are applied.
This link may take you to the Gonzales interview:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5170875
Jeff,
You guessed wrong.
My point is that if you accept the government's stated goal of getting information on terrorists. You could also accept that the decisions involved are guided by that goal. For instance they would not decide to listen to my phone calls because it would not advance the goal of getting information on terrorists.
And there is nothing to stop any administration from breaking the law other than the possibility of punishment. I'm not convinced that the question at his point is if they can get away with it, but if the law has indeed been broken.
I'm not convinced that the question at his point is if they can get away with it, but if the law has indeed been broken.
I agree.
Now, we have a method in place to determine whether a President's broken the law, don't we? ...Now let me see, what was that process called again?
Unfortunately the process to which you allude is, like everything else, to politicized to be of any real value. Witness the last time it was used.
Unfortunately the process to which you allude is, like everything else, to politicized to be of any real value. Witness the last time it was used.
The word we're looking for is "deterrence". Future Presidents will have to account for such risks. ...which is of real value.
The Democrats can claim that the impeachment of Clinton was political and what are the chances of the Republican Congress doing anything to Bush?
Where's the deterrent other than keep your nose clean if the other party has congress?
The President isn't above the law. ...political advantage be damned!
We've got a process for what happens when the President breaks the law. ...It may behoove the President and the Republicans running for Congress to call for that process themselves. So what?
The deterrent is don't do the crime if you can't do the hearing. ...and if the Democrats let him skate by on this (they can still make lots of noise), it'll be a bad thing for all of us. They don't have much to run on anyway--how 'bout running on the rule of law?
The Democrats running on rule of law?! They'd be better off trying to run on national security and tax cuts.
I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's how it is.
Why didn't Tommy Chong think of this defence?
I'm still updating a post on this topic, Who's Watching the Watchers?.