Whole Foods Doesn't Suck

It blows.

The compassionately capitalist supermarket, as outlined by Whole Foods CEO John Mackey here, now plans to use wind power to supply all electricity for its stores. The company will purchase 458,000 megawatt-hours of wind energy credits this year, which is much better than slapping windmills in the parking lots.

The move basically makes unavoidable utility costs part of Whole Foods green-is-good marketing campaign and the company is convinced that will pay off with customers. Could be.

Comments

[Eric the .5b]

But will enraged animal-rights activists picket them now for all the birds windmills kill?

No potentially good deed goes unpunished. 🙂

[ChicagoTom]

Are Wind Power rates similar to those of traditional electric rates? And are the rates for wind power supposed to be more stable and less likely to have the fluctuations of traditional electric? Or would it be more volatile because of weather dependencies?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Wind generators are the ugliest blight on the landscape imaginable. I would rather look at the brown haze of a smoggy LA afternoon than gaze upon the ghastly vista of these hideous monstrosities that are partially funded by your tax dollars.

And as Eric.5 points out the idiot enviro-fascists waxed poetic on the bennies of wind power but now they hate them because they kill birds.

[joe]

Unless Whole Foods intends to use 1970s technology, their deli counter is still going to kill more birds than their wind turbines, fellas.

I know, that warm feeling you get when you call environmentalists hypocrites just went away. Reality bites, eh?

[Yogi]

More power to them. (no pun intended) If they can pull the wool of the the eyes of the modern liberals that shop there to feel morally superior, great. I'm sure this ad campaign will work out great. Like Bush, Mackey knows his base well.

[Eric the .5b]

Wind generators are the ugliest blight on the landscape imaginable

I don't know, they strike me as scads prettier than, say, massed ranks of photovoltaic panels. Of course, I never thought pictures of windmill farms looked ugly.

[wellfellow]

"their deli counter is still going to kill more birds than their wind turbines, fellas."

Good point.

Hey, I say go for it! More evidence of the ~free market having not been designed to destroy the environment, or babies or whatever.

[Yogi]

Wind generators are the ugliest blight on the landscape imaginable.

I'll bet they said the same things about silos, big buildings, etc., etc....

I kind of like them, there are some in NW Iowa and SW MN. Kind of an engineering marvel if you ask me. Though I'm not around them alot and there aren't all over the place yet.

[R C Dean]

their deli counter is still going to kill more birds than their wind turbines

Without knowing how many turbines they will be using, and how many birds each will kill, its impossible to say.

Still, there is a difference, eco-impactfully speaking, between killing chickens raised on a farm for that purpose, and killing wild, possibly endangered, songbirds, raptors, etc. more or less randomly, no?

[Eric the .5b]

Without knowing how many turbines they will be using, and how many birds each will kill, its impossible to say.

Nor does the truth matter when you're talking about what outrages animal-rights people.

[mediageek]

"I know, that warm feeling you get when you call environmentalists hypocrites just went away. Reality bites, eh?"

This statement makes zero sense.

How is it hypocritical to make fun of those zany enviro-luddites while I'm eating a turkey sandwich?

And I, for one, will continue to do the bulk of my grocery shopping at Walmart. Cheaper prices, and the place is an interactive menagerie of all sorts of bizarre people.

[Kwix]

As an "whole foods" consumer, I happen to think that this is the type of thing the free market is good at. People on H&R go on and on about how "price is supreme" and for the vast majority of the populace they are probably right. For me, quality, community and other less tangible aspects drive my dollar.

Yogi,
If they can pull the wool of the the eyes of the [people] that shop there to feel morally superior, great.
How is giving someone what they want "pulling the wool"? This is the basis of a free market (finding a niche and filling it), and if a person is willing to pay a few more hard earned dollars to feel good about themselves then they should have the ability to do so. That, or we should start looking at closing all the cosmetic surgery centers, day spas and all charities down now.

[James Feldman]

Wait a minute - do you mean to tell me that companies will adopt environmental practices in order to meet market demand and not just to comply with government regulation?

[Jennifer]

Slightly off-topic: usually Whole Foods is more expensive that regular stores, but there's one exception. If you are buying exotic spices, Whole Foods will sell them in bulk, for much, much less than regular stores.

(I own no stock in the company, but I was thrilled to discover their spice prices a couple of months ago and so, missionary-like, I want to share the good news.)

Carry on.

[joe]

Read it again, geek. You didn't get it the first time.

RC, the bird mortality problemm with modern wind turbines is very, very low. It's not half of what it was in 1980. It's not a tenth of what it was in 1980. It's one of those problems that's so insignificant as to only be raised by nimbys, people arguing in bad faith, or people who really don't know what they're talking about.

Given the obvious glee with which it's raised, the number of times the factually-challenged nature of that "concern" had been pointed out on this blog, and the disdain with which any sort of species mortality is treated by the usual suspects in other context, it's pretty clear what's behind the sudden cries of "somebody think of the pigeons!" among certain anti-environmental regulars.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

No, Yogi, wind generators are the ugliest things you have ever seen. There are thousands of them on huge wind farms in the Banning Pass near Whitewater Ca off of I-10 and I can assure you that they are hideous, ghastly things (turns head and spits). Just for perspective, I'm fine with silos, skysrapers, electric transmission lines, freeways, and all that. As I said, smog is ugly, wind farms are uglier.

[joe]

Mr. Feldman,

Some of them will, and some of them won't.

All,

Does it strike any of you as odd that your reaction to someone performing a "good act" is to be immediately suspicious of that person, but that when you discover that he might be motivated by money, it makes you like him better? For most people, it's just the opposite.

[d]

joe, you mean that the old "Cuisinarts of the sky" and "Raptor-matic" labels are no longer valid? What about the bats?

[mitch]

Like Yogi, I kind of liked the cyclopean windmills I saw when visiting Iowa and Denmark; they put me in ther mind of Star Wars or BladeRunner or whatever SF city, utopian or dystopian. Of course, I am not planning on moving to Iowa or Denmark any time soon. Or ever.

And don't let Joe's revelation that there are avian-friendly turbines make you forgo the joys of pointing out Green hypocrisy; there are still those Martha's Vineyard jokers who don't want the turbines ruining the view from their stately homes.

[Kwix]

James Feldman,
The entire "Organic Foods" industry is driven based on consumer demand. I am not aware of any laws requiring farmers to grow organically or retailers to sell organic foods. There are several flooring companies that only sell products from "Forest Stewardship Council" inspected forests even though the price may be higher to the consumer.

So, long answer made short, yes companies will adopt environmental practices in order to meet market demand and not just to comply with government regulation.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Kwix, good point about quality and price. I like food that tastes good and in many respects that is an advantage that Whole Foods and other stores like it offer.

[Timothy]

Kwix: I like Whole Foods, but I don't shop there because the nearest one is across town. 40 minutes for groceries is silly. Even if the bell peppers are a ton better.

And, I agree, I think a certain portion of Whole Foods customers (and I'll bet a large one) want "socially responsible" businesses, so they'll be pleased. Of course, some of those will get pissy because Whole Foods is a large national corporation driving out ma & pa organohippie grocers or whatever, but I think that'll take another few years.

[Jeff P.]

We have a Whole Foods in nearby West Hartford CT, a town known for large quantities of hot air.

[James Feldman]

I'm going to have to update my browser's sarcasm program, that's for sure.

[fyodor]

joe,

Speaking strictly for myself, I love nature, and I can assure you I've never expressed disdain here or anywhere else for species mortality. So, whether you believe me or not, I know damn well that my concern for sliced and diced birds is genuine. Can you support your assertion that the effect of wind power on birds is "so insignificant" that no one should be concerned with it except for the disengenuous? Thanks.

[Ironchef]

I will gladly take the money I save from shopping at Piggly Wiggly (rather than Whole Foods) and spend it directly on environmental issues. That would be more efficient.

Ahh hell who am I kidding. I'll spend it on beer . . . err, pot . . . err, porn . . . err, gay porn.

[Kwix]

Mitch,
Not to put to fine a point on this but you said
there are still those Martha's Vineyard jokers who don't want the turbines ruining the view from their stately homes.
and TWC said
Wind generators are the ugliest blight on the landscape imaginable. I would rather look at the brown haze of a smoggy LA afternoon

Are you claiming that TWC is a Martha's Vinyard joker just because he doesn't like the look of the turbines? Or ar you saying that anybody who doesn't want to see the turbines from there house is a member of the "Green hypocrisy"?

For the record, I both like wind power and don't mind the look of the windmills, particularly on the ridge outside of Bakersfield, CA. As people here are fond of pointing out, if you don't like it, you can always move.

James Feldman,
"I'm going to have to update my browser's sarcasm program, that's for sure."

Sorry about that, yeah, you may want to upgrade to the Yakov Plugin V2.9999 for IE.

And will somebody please feed the server squirrels?

[Captain Awesome]

Of course the newest generation of windmills are much larger and move much slower. This takes care of the bird problem to a large degree.

[Eric the .5b]

People:

Environmentalists and animal-rights activists may have some overlap, but they are different groups, which is why my comment was about nitwit animal-rights activists.

[Daniel Ehrenberg]

Err, I really don't get what's wrong with this. Whole Foods can do whatever it wants in the free market; it's not bound by maximal efficiency. If customers support their use of wind power (and I'm sure they do), what's wrong with them making this switch? It might even result in more profit. Isn't this just more voluntary corporate greenness/marketing? What's wrong with that?

I shop at Whole Foods when I'm near one just because I like the food there. The prices may be high, but they're worth it, and it's not like the store has the same target audience as Walmart, people who really need lower prices.

[Phil]

Here is the American Wind Energy Association's statement on the bird death impact of wind power. It has several outside links included as well.

(I'm curious as to when joe was elected to talk for "most people.")

Added: FUCK A WHOLE BUNCH OF THE REASON SERVER.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Timothy.......

get pissy because Whole Foods is a large national corporation driving out ma & pa organohippie grocers

Like what happened to Starbucks?

BTW, if memory serves I think that WF founder is one of us.

Kwix,

[mediageek]

"Read it again, geek. You didn't get it the first time."

Evidently not.

"Does it strike any of you as odd that your reaction to someone performing a "good act" is to be immediately suspicious of that person, but that when you discover that he might be motivated by money, it makes you like him better? For most people, it's just the opposite."

There's no dickering over motive with someone who's in it for the money.

[Herrick and His Balls]

I used to work at this law office downtown the summer between high school and college, and every day for lunch I went down to Whole Foods a couple blocks from work and just chowed down the free samples they had. I even went so far as to take a few of the sample cups to the salad bar and soup pots to get my own unauthorized samples. This one time a guy kicked me out and said that Whole Foods "wasn't an Old Country Buffet", but I just came back the next day and continued my routine. I didn't pay a dime for lunch that entire summer.

[Herrick and His Balls]

I used to work at this law office downtown the summer between high school and college, and every day for lunch I went down to Whole Foods a couple blocks from work and just chowed down the free samples they had. I even went so far as to take a few of the sample cups to the salad bar and soup pots to get my own unauthorized samples. This one time a guy kicked me out and said that Whole Foods "wasn't an Old Country Buffet", but I just came back the next day and continued my routine. I didn't pay a dime for lunch that entire summer.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Eric.5

Environmentalists and animal-rights activists may have some overlap, but they are different groups, which is why my comment was about nitwit animal-rights activists.

When the Jewish guy complained about the Jews being blamed for the sinking of the Titanic the response he got was this:

Iceberg? Goldberg?

What the hell's the difference?

I rest my case.

and, my last post was eaten by the server....

[budgie]

"the joys of pointing out Green hypocrisy"
I read the linked article and saw no evidence of anything that smells of green hypocrisy. I thought a report about Whole Foods of its own initiative choosing their own energy inputs would give all of you guys chubbos. I guess the need to make snide comments about those who would support a free-market move by a pretty solid company to use more renewable resources is just too sexy to pass up. Oh, I like the cheap soy milk there, so fire away.

[Eric the .5b]

Err, I really don't get what's wrong with this.

I don't have a problem with it at all. If there's anything worthwhile to wind power, this will encourage it. If not, in a few years they'll abandon it.

[Wind Turbine Girl]

I think wind turbines are beautiful and I would rather live near a wind farm than a natural gas powerplant. Also, living near Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant was a little exciting post-9/11, considering we had to have our iodine pills ready at all times.

While taking a wind turbine class in college, I did a safety presentation and I used this fabulous link to reassure people that cats are far more dangerous than wind turbines.

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

[Eric the .5b]

Like what happened to Starbucks?

I could see that happening very easily. Any measure of success leaves a taint on a company among the granola set.

[SY]

Well, Whole Paycheck has certainly done a commendable job of selling bullshit (look at the homeopathy aisle and their collateral material). They've also done a commendable job of convincing people that they can feel morally superior by paying double for their food. Helps the Third World and all that. Or something. It redistributes all that excess New Age income, too, taking from the gullible and giving to the rich. As a libertarian, I applaud them.

As a consumer, I shop down the street where the produce is better quality, more varied, and priced at a fraction of theirs. And no quack medicine scams.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

I'd be more excited about wind power if it wasn't government subsidized, which it is for the plain and simple reason that it isn't cost effective.

As to nukes, the risk is vastly over-hyped, our friends the Frogs get over 3/4 of their power from nukes and have for years. But that might be because the cost of petrol in Europe is a whole lot more than here.

[mediageek]

"I thought a report about Whole Foods of its own initiative choosing their own energy inputs would give all of you guys chubbos."

Oh, certainly the yuppie set has the right to shop and spend their money at Whole Foods. And Whole Foods is certainly making a smart move that will likely appeal to their main demographic.

However, this won't stop me from pointing out that those who shop at Whole Foods tend to be snooty social do-gooders who are blowing their money on what amounts to public indulgence of an emotionally masturbatory luxury.

They should have the freedom to shop there, and I should have the freedom to make fun of them.

Freedom. It's just swell that way.

[mediageek]

"As to nukes, the risk is vastly over-hyped, our friends the Frogs get over 3/4 of their power from nukes and have for years. But that might be because the cost of petrol in Europe is a whole lot more than here."

TWC, I'm inclined to agree with you, at least in regards to Pebble-Bed Reactors. Short of developing nuclear fusion reactors, I think that the Pebble-Bed ones offer the safest and cleanest alternative at the best cost. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Chinese are going to kick ass and take names in Pebble-Bed Reactor development, and the rest of the world will be playing catch up a decade or two after the Chinese.

[Don Mynack]

In other news, Wal-Mart will continue to power their stores with clubbed baby seals. And I'll still shop there, since its cheaper.

[budgie]

"blowing their money on what amounts to public indulgence of an emotionally masturbatory luxury"
Speak for yourself mediageek. The butchershop's bacon, cheap soy milk, bulk cereal and spices, and kickass cheeses simply aren't available anywhere else near my house, at any price. Sounds like in your jeering you are the snooty one. Oh, a lot of homos seem to shop there too if that in any way adds to the fun.

[dead_elvis]

The aesthetics of wind turbines are completely irrelevant. People here would be all over making fun of people who want to restrict big-box retailers on aesthetic grounds, so just look at it and lump it. Pollution has tangible, measurable problems, offended eyeballs do not. Screw the birds, may they be chopped into a million little bite sized pieces, and screw your preciously sensitive eyeballs. Personally, I find wind turbines to be somewhat awe inspiring, in an engineering sort of way; those things are *huge* up close. Now, subsidies are another story...

And Herrick, you seem to be real proud of being a common thief. Congratulations.

Don't take any of this personally, I have the flu and I'm cranky.

[SPD]

And no quack medicine scams.

...that is, unless you buy "cough syrup." Ahem.

I agree with the "Who gives a flying fuck how they buy their energy?" argument. If they chose to invest in wind power, fast neutron reactor energy, clean-coal gasification, or a coked-up hamster running in a wheel, I'd still shop there.

TWC,

Semantics question: As one who laughed at the patriotic morons self-righteously ordering "freedom fries" and "freedom toast," do we have to refer to the French as "the Freedom?"

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sy, I think there's a middle ground there somewhere. I love throwing rocks at those dowdy Birkenstock-clad charmers I run across at Starbucks. I told you I wanted a double nonfat vanilla soy latte with nutmeg and sage, apron boy, now fix this right and make it snappy..... Okay, so they're not all snotty. And, flavored coffee just sucks, er, blows.

I'm there for something that crawls down my throat although I'll doctor it up with cream and sugar (sissy style).

Point being that there's some value for us at Starbucks and at WF. Plus there's plenty left over to have fun with at the expense of the annointed.

BTW, nice job, I LOL at your descriptions.

[dead_elvis]

Are there any recent articles on how the pebble-bed reactor development is going? I don't think I've seen anything about it since a Wired article quite a while back. [Cartman]I want my safe nuke power, and I want it nooowwww![/Cartman]

I also like the concept of the Solar Sterling Engine, it looks like it has real potential, but of couse you have to convince enviros that covering 100 square miles of desert with mirrors is a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Yogi]

How is giving someone what they want "pulling the wool"? This is the basis of a free market (finding a niche and filling it), and if a person is willing to pay a few more hard earned dollars to feel good about themselves then they should have the ability to do so. That, or we should start looking at closing all the cosmetic surgery centers, day spas and all charities down now.

Oh, i have no problem with wind energy or giving to charity, or whatever. Like I said in my first post, more power to them for finding the niche.

To my knowledge, most of these windfarms are getting even bigger kickbacks than the ethanol people. If they're not, and creating energy that competes with other forms on the free market, that's awesome and I take back what I said.

I'm a nature guy and would love to see these type of technologies get us off the poluting type of fuels. But subsidizing them isn't the answer.

If helping the environment is your aim, plant a tree, buy some land and preserve it. Don't fund an inefficient energy source.

[JD]

Does it strike any of you as odd that your reaction to someone performing a "good act" is to be immediately suspicious of that person, but that when you discover that he might be motivated by money, it makes you like him better? For most people, it's just the opposite.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
-- C.S. Lewis

More generally, if a man does something for money, I know why he wants to do it. If he does it for some other reason than self-interest, it implies he thinks he knows what I need better than I do. That's why I'm suspicious.

[Yogi]

In other news, Wal-Mart will continue to power their stores with clubbed baby seals. And I'll still shop there, since its cheaper.

OUCH!

Sorry, I just fell out of my chair laughing. I'm okay, carry on...

[Timothy]

Like what happened to Starbucks?

It is amazing the degree to which Northwesterners turned on Starbucks once it became a national chain. I can still hear the hippies from Eugene prattling on about "fair trade coffee" and what not because Starbucks is evil and exploits bean growers in Guatemala or whatever the hell.

mediageek: Some folks shop at WF out of a pretentious yuppie attitude, and some of us like to shop there because the only other grocery game in town (HEB, namely, DAMN YOU HEB!) gets crappy vegetables, inferior cuts of meat, and has all the beer selection of a Norwood, MN gas station. It is, however, about 30 to 40 minutes from my house and I just can't abide doing that except on special occasions.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Dead E,

screw your preciously sensitive eyeballs

Dude, I'm allowed to hate those ugly pieces of crap. English doesn't have enough adjectives to describe the horrific detestable.........(spits again)

I didn't ask anyone to dismantle them BTW. But, I would love to see the tax credits and other subsidies removed. Then we'll see how fast they come down.

BTW, last I checked Dead Elvis was still hanging with Odd Thomas, or so Dean Koontz writes. 🙂

BTW, none taken.

[Baseball in DC? I guess.]

I buy salmon from Whole Foods. They have good salmon. I could care less about the company's commitment to anything--I just like the salmon. I like the minestrone, too; it's kinda chewy.

[Yogi]

has all the beer selection of a Norwood, MN gas station.

If its got Grain Belt and Pig's Eye, what more do you want?

[Jason Ligon]

I just hate the conflation of "hippie friendly" with "good" or "smart".

[Kwix]

[Devil's Advocate]

The aesthetics of wind turbines are completely irrelevant. ... Pollution has tangible, measurable problems, offended eyeballs do not.

I do not agree with this. What you are saying is that only if it can be measured is it worth considering in this equation.

Do you take this view with the rest of your life? If you deprive yourself of beer, coffee, dessert and dope you will live a measurably longer life but at what cost? You can't measure quality of life like you can quantity.

[/Devil's Advocate]

[theOneState]

Pollution has tangible, measurable problems, offended eyeballs do not.

Sure they do. It's called eye pollution. (Not to be confused with eye candy, which has measureable, tangible *benefits*.)

[bubba]

Hopefully you're only buying wild caught salmon at WF... 🙂

HEB/Central Market sells bulk spices in Texas. HEB manages to be both cheap and yuppy at the same time. It's fabulous.

This quote killed me:

"It's a sales driver rather than a cost," Whole Foods regional president Michael Besancon tells the AP. "All of those things we do related to our core values: help drive sales, help convince a customer to drive past three or four other supermarkets on the way to Whole Foods."

Drive past 3 or 4 other stores? To save energy? Bwahahaha.

For the record, farmed chicken != migratory birds. We can test this by asking the Lefties if we can mitigate the loss of endangered birds by simply increasing the number of chicken farms.

How is the wind farm project doing off the coast of Martha's Vineyard? They all voted for Kerry, didn't they?

[thoreau]

As a scientist, I applaud Whole Foods for experimenting with renewable energy. If this spurs greater adoption of the technology and new innovations, well, more power to them. (Pun intended) And if they decide after some experimentation that it isn't a competitive technology, well, lessons are learned and only the willing participants are hurt.

Oh, wait, I'm supposed to hate Whole Foods because the CEO calls himself a libertarian but dares to care about warm, fuzzy, lefty causes.

My bad.

[Timothy]

Does it strike any of you as odd that your reaction to someone performing a "good act" is to be immediately suspicious of that person, but that when you discover that he might be motivated by money, it makes you like him better? For most people, it's just the opposite.

Joe: Odd? So far as odd means uncommon, then yes, I suppose it is odd.

However, I think the feeling that a profit motive is unseemly goes back to a certain aesthetic from 16th and 17th century European nobility. I would say it was Puritain (like much of America's fear of sex), but the Puritains were notorious smugglers, entrepreneurs and tax evaders. I don't think it'd be accurate to say that they found talk of money unseemly. However, much of the nobility at the time did, and considered it beneath them to talk about or handle it. I think the feeling that deeds done for profit are somehow less noble than deeds done for some other undefined reason is a remnant of that particular part of cultural history.

More generally, if a man does something for money, I know why he wants to do it. If he does it for some other reason than self-interest, it implies he thinks he knows what I need better than I do. That's why I'm suspicious.

JD: That's spot on.

[Foodie]

If Whole Foods as a corporation want to switch to windpower, I think that's cool. Private is as private does. Perhaps they might have a better time getting energy by putting solar panels on top of all their stores, but whatever.

Personally, I love windmills. The patch of windmills on Hwy 58 out near Mojave always caught my eye as a kid. Same thing with the windmills over the Altamont Pass over the 580. Even though I live on the 10, I have never seen the mills TWC was talking about. Maybe I need to drive further east.

Speaking of wine, Whole Foods has a great selection. Good cheese and salami, too. I have organized many a great, spontaneous picnic by stepping into Whole Foods. Mmm, good soups, too. Too bad they're far from where I live, or I'd shop there more often.

Oh, but don't buy the smoked trout. Whole Foods just recalled their smoked trout because of listeria contamination. Just a heads up 😉

[The Wine Commonsewer]

One State is correct. Do not confuse the two. Eye Candy is light years better than a grotesque government subsidized wind farm.

[dead_elvis]

What you are saying is that only if it can be measured is it worth considering in this equation.

What I was saying is that preventing someone from doing something with their property requires a better reason than "I don't like how it looks." Whereas, if acid rain kills your plants, chemical dumping contaminates your land and water, and smog gives you athsma, those are demonstrable damages.

[m g]

WHOLE FOODS RULES

John Mackey buys wind power for the same reason minor league baseball teams have fireworks. Hes a showman and a shrewd business man. And who are you to decry this consensual act of capitalism??
And his compassionate capitalism is no bullshit either. Whole Foods is an absolute king at retaining workers. My girlfriend works there and loves it. Every department head is given the opportunity to be an in store entrepreneur. They actually get to decide what products to sell and pocket any profit that exceeds their target margins.

[thoreau]

So, if I ever buy a house, I hope to install solar panels on my roof.

Will I have to hand in my decoder ring? What if I promise that I'm only doing it to save money? Can I keep my decoder ring in that case?

[Timothy]

If its got Grain Belt and Pig's Eye, what more do you want?

Anything from Oregon. Although I must admit that HEB always has Bridgeport and sometimes has Rogue.

HEB/Central Market sells bulk spices in Texas. HEB manages to be both cheap and yuppy at the same time. It's fabulous.

The only Central Market is in the same part of San Antonio as the Whole Foods, same distance. The real problem is a total lack of competition, Wal-Mart is the only other grocery in SA, but I don't like shopping at Wal-Mart, it's farther from the house (barely), and the quality is about the same. Wal-Mart isn't even notably cheaper than HEB. One great thing about Eugene was that I had Safeway, Trader Joe's, Albertson's, and a few miscellaneous local places all within easy reach. Here I have two HEBs and a Wal-Mart. *le sigh*

[Randolph Carter]

The whole foods in Arlington VA has more beer than god, so it's on my nice list. Also, they do have a rockin cheese selection.

[dead_elvis]

Oh, and let's not pretend oil use doesn't get its share of little favors from government. Especially when it comes to keeping the house of Saud secure.

[Ayn_Randian]

I am torn. On one hand, my free market commitment side applauds WF for finding a niche and making a profit. Yah.

On the other hand, my reason side gets bugged to hell with the whole pretentious foolishness. Seriously, if the snake-oil salesman (modern day equivalent: homeopathy) makes the environment better, can't we still jeer him for selling crap?

The issue, I think, is that sometimes libertarians are torn between knowing the we have a better idea how life should work, thereby making us smarter, and then realizing that if we call other people dumb, we have no justification for letting them operate on their own. And buying the hippie image of WF and it's holistic garbage strikes me as dumb, but still a triumph of the market.

As I said, I am torn.

[mediageek]

"Speak for yourself mediageek. The butchershop's bacon, cheap soy milk, bulk cereal and spices, and kickass cheeses simply aren't available anywhere else near my house, at any price. Sounds like in your jeering you are the snooty one. Oh, a lot of homos seem to shop there too if that in any way adds to the fun."

*points*

Hippy!

[Eric the .5b]

Oh, wait, I'm supposed to hate Whole Foods because the CEO calls himself a libertarian but dares to care about warm, fuzzy, lefty causes.

I don't really see anyone saying anything like that, this time.

[thoreau]

dead elvis hits on a very important point in his 5:04 pm post.

As to wind power, one way to make renewable energy more profitable is to combine solar and wind on a single site. Cloudy days tend to be windier (although that's not universally true), so have a field of solar panels with windmills in their midst. I'd be happy to have a turbine on my roof, surrounded by solar panels.

[Timothy]

thoreau: what about covering the turbines with solar panels as well?

[db]

If customers are willing to bpay the unavoidably higher prices for good brought on by the more-expensive wind power purchases, so be it.

Let them put their money where their environmental mouths are. Just don't let them cram their higher energy bills (and bullshit "organic" foods) down my throat.

[thoreau]

Timothy-

I don't know if there are technical issues with that, but if it's feasible I'm cool with it.

[dead_elvis]

I'm gonna put one of these up on my roof. Hey TWC, what's your address? Thoreau and I want to buy the houses on either side of you 😉

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Even though I live on the 10, I have never seen the mills TWC was talking about. Maybe I need to drive further east.

Foodie, they are right at Whitewater just past the outlet mall, the Morongo Indian Casino, and the dinos from Pee Wee's Big Adventure on the way to Palm Springs and points east.

[Timothy]

DE: Good luck finding a community whose CC&Rs will allow that.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Thow-row, the problem with solar is it's pricey to install and even with the subsidies it's still pricey to install. And, at least with SCE, (mentioned in the article DE linked to) the idea that when the meter spins backwards they buy your energy isn't exactly correct.

My neighbor recently installed an elaborate solar system that is cool as hell but it cost him a fortune and it will not recover the cost until long after he's dead. By then the system will be obsolete and need to be replaced. Big Sigh.

[mediageek]

The hope would be that the early adopters will help to generate a market for solar that will eventually drive the price of the setup down.

To be completely honest, I really, really dig the idea of having a house with all the modern conveniences that's either partially or totally off grid.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

DE, my neighbors would assasinate you and leave your body down the hill for the vultures and coyotes. Sheesh, they had apoplexy because somebody wanted to install a fake tree cell phone tower in a grove of trees on private property. I was the ONLY person to speak in favor of it. The other 75 or 100 were fit to be tied. So the company put up an uglier-than-crap tower on the other side of the road where the CCR's didn't apply and the homeowners couldn't do anything about it.

On pretending oil subsidies aren't real I don't buy into any of those conspiracy theories but even so, Big Oil has paid billions and billions of dollars in taxes whereas wind farms are a net loss to the taxpayer. For years they were used as tax shelters that threw off tax credits. They are still heavily subsidized with tax credits.

Plus, unlike an ugly woman you might marry, wind farms cannot cook a got dam thing.

[Timothy]

Plus, unlike an ugly woman you might marry, wind farms cannot cook a got dam thing.

Marry pretty, learn to cook for yourself!

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Media, off grid buy a big propane generator and have a big propane tank installed. That'll do it.

I have a client back east who did that because of the propensity for storms to knock out power for days on end. His business is at home so......

I believe it cost him about 9 grand.

We've thought about going that route on a smaller scale for emergencies because we already have propane for heat. I think you can buy a decent propane generator for around a grand. No, it won't run your A/C but it will run your fridge and your heating unit and your hot water heater until the power comes back on.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Marry pretty, learn to cook for yourself!

Timothy, excellent point.

Case in point here

Cookin' With Gas Regards, TWC

[fcnolan]

compassionate capitalism is no bullshit either. ... Every department head is given the opportunity to be an in store entrepreneur. They actually get to decide what products to sell and pocket any profit that exceeds their target margins.

Pocket "excessive profit?" Whole Foods is a publicly-traded company, meaning the profit belongs to the shareholders. You're right. That's not bullshit. That's serious bullshit.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

oops, forgot the hot water heater was already on propane not the electricity grid.

[TJ]

The hippie bots are coming to get you!

[joshua corning]

wait, are theier actually people against wind power?? I mean i have no idea if it is cost effective but if people want to freely pay for it i really don't see the problem.

[downstater]

as a fan of developing renewable energy - whole food's switch has worked as i will now start to be a patron of their stores.

i think the turbines are aesthetically beautiful things as well in a harmony-of-mankind-with-their-environment sort of way.

as for the whole "what about when it's not windy" problem with wind power: it is my understanding that when the grid is viewed as a whole and wind generators are dispersed throughout geographically, then those areas where wind is currently blowing will compensate for those areas which are currently experiencing low amounts of wind.

besides, i think the real future in wind is off-shore (perhaps over the horizon?) where wind is more or less constant and free of obstruction. denmark has done amazing things with wind power.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Josh, against wind power

Wind power is fine but tax-subsidized wind power isn't. Interestingly enough the wind mills that aren't subsidized are old fashioned kind mostly used to pump well water. They're pretty much illegal almost everywhere due to zoning ordinances.

[Hakluyt]

joe,

One of the main objections to wind turbines by many environmentalists is the "kills birds" claim. Whether the claim that they kill birds is accurate is another issue. As the Penn & Teller show on environmentalism demonstrated, facts and environmental crusading don't necessarily go together.

[SM]

"Pocket "excessive profit?" Whole Foods is a publicly-traded company, meaning the profit belongs to the shareholders.

He's talking about incentivizing employees at individual stores. Though I wouldn't have used "excessive profit" to describe compensation. Last I checked management has the power to create any compensation package that makes sense.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

If you are buying exotic spices, Whole Foods will sell them in bulk, for much, much less than regular stores.

Maybe if you don't like buying them off-line or at an ethnic market. That and they quality of their exotic spices leaves one wanting to never shop there again. I've bought enough shitty saffron there to know.

[realish]

My god, I enjoy this blog, but this thread really does not reflect well on libertarians. For all your pretensions to robotic rationality, you really are just as much a bundle of ill-considered social prejudices as anyone else. Being "hard-headed" for y'all is just like "wearing black" for other subcultures -- an affectation, an identity, a secret handshake. Please don't pretend "reason" has anything to do with it.

And did someone upthread praise nuclear power and condemn wind power for receiving government subsidies in the same breath?

[J]

This is completely off-topic, but TWC, while reading H&R I occasionally find myself at your blog, and I always find it entertaining and often - dare I say it? - informative (and not just the entries with wonderbra ads).

And thanks for the link to the Times Square new year's eve panorama - the 2005 entry really was incredible. A couple years ago I came across a collection of poor man's versions of those panoramas with scenes from various points around the world; they're not nearly as high quality and don't allow the same interactive control, but there are still some beautiful scenes.
http://www.urban75.org/vista/index.html

[thoreau]

Phun Phact:

According to the Hairy Ball Theorem of topology (yes, really, just Google it) there must always be a place on earth where the air stands perfectly still.

The Hairy Ball Theorem is undoubtedly Herrick's favorite theorem.

[Hakluyt]

mitch,

...there are still those Martha's Vineyard jokers who don't want the turbines ruining the view from their stately homes.

Transient lowlanders in Vermont (people like joe) bitch incessently about how they'll ruin the view from the interstate of the Green Mountains.

SY,

I've always thought that those crap cures were the liberal version of being anti-science; religious nuts have intelligent design and liberals have their crap cures.

thoreau,

Oh, wait, I'm supposed to hate Whole Foods because the CEO calls himself a libertarian but dares to care about warm, fuzzy, lefty causes.

Would you stop making shit up.

[SY]

TWC, I'm trying very hard to see where there's value at WF for me. Other places have better stuff cheaper.

But for the kind words, you have an open invite to crack a bottle of Ogier La Belle Helene with me next time you're in Napa.

[Hakluyt]

And did someone upthread praise nuclear power and condemn wind power for receiving government subsidies in the same breath?

Yes, unfortunately.

[dead_elvis]

Transient lowlanders in Vermont bitch incessently about how they'll ruin the view from the interstate of the Green Mountains.

And I heard a radio blurb a year or so ago about the same in W. Virginia... summer home owners want their view and the people who actually live their want jobs. It's all over. Just in today's paper people bitching about power lines in a rural part of San Diego County ruining the view.

I've done my share of camping and enjoying a beautiful day in the back mountains and imagining how much better it would look without the giant scar of powerlines running through it. But I know it's the price we pay. At least until we all get our personal,one per building, hot water heater sized safe low power nuke power plant 😉

[Johnny]

After reading Jeffs post and the comments here, can we say that there are many free-market libertarians who oppose the results of the free-market when it disagrees with thier personal beliefs?

[joe]

The NIMBYs opposing the Nantucket Sound wind power installation are wrong on so many levels. First, the idea of stopping a clean energy project on environmental grounds. Second, claiming that the view of some masts sticking over the horizon is an environmental issue.

But my biggest bitch is their appeal to the maritime culture - that doesn't make any sense at all. Off shore wind power is the next great era in maritime history. In 100 years, towns on Cape Cod will be incorporating wind turbines into their town seals. Complaining that wind turbines on the horizon are an inappropriate intrusion on an ocean view is like complaining about the masts of ships.

I guess the lesson here is that NIMBYism crosses all political boundaries.

[Ruthless]

Could Sam Walton rise from the grave and do a Mexican hat dance on the sparse chestals of wimp, John Mackey?

One can hope.

"I guess the lesson here is that NIMBYism crosses all political boundaries."

joe,
It's not NIMBYism, it's conservatism.

[thoreau]

I don't really see anyone saying anything like that, this time.

Fair point, Eric, opinions can evolve.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

J, thank you for your kind words and, I might add, thanks for stopping by the blog. I wish blogging paid better because I do enjoy it.

Looked at some of those panoramas while waiting for Reasons server to come back up. Nice.

Here is a fun Nu Awlins Mardi Gras panorama a few years back. 2003 I think. There's bare boobies in it so be forewarned if you're sharing with your kids.

http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen2/full31a.html

[The Wine Commonsewer]

And did someone upthread praise nuclear power and condemn wind power for receiving government subsidies in the same breath?

Yes, unfortunately.

It wasn't in the same exact breath and for the record I doubt that anyone here approves of subsidies for nukes. In my case, I was merely pointing out that nukes can reliably provide a lot of electricity in a relatively safe manner.

I'm still working on this incredibly tedious and time consuming project that requires little brain power but lots of sporadic attention. Thank the lord for you guys saving my sanity today.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sy, that stuff is expensive, thanks for the offer. BTW, I've not had it before either.

[fcnolan]

He's talking about incentivizing employees at individual stores. Though I wouldn't have used "excessive profit" to describe compensation. Last I checked management has the power to create any compensation package that makes sense.

And the last time I checked, "pocket any profit that exceeds their target margins" and "incentives" (even generous incentives) are two different things. I'm going to assume he meant "pocket a percentage of profit," which sounds more realistic.

[Kwix]

TWC,
Just for the record while I support wind power in all it's rotating glory as a sight to behold I do not support any form of subsidy that goes along with it. This applies to Nuke, gas, coal-bed methane, nat-gas, solar, EVs, farmer's subsidies, government grants, or the DEA dammit!

If I personally could choose where to get my juice from and pay the surcharge I would.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Realish, For all your pretensions to robotic rationality, you really are just as much a bundle of ill-considered social prejudices as anyone else.

In the main, we're all people here (Iguana comes to mind as a possible exception). We have prejudices and dislikes, some rational some not, but we're reluctant to use the government club to get you to see things our way. IOW, I'm not going to complain to the county Design & Review board if you paint your house Cub Scout Blue and Yellow. I might, however, ROTFLMAO at you for doing it. I might even make fun of you to the other neighbors.

My old lady argues that people tend to be irrational and that is EXACTLY why we should have limited government. Kind of reverse Randism.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Kwix, I didn't take you for a subsidized kind of guy but thanks for the clarification.

[ChuckWalla]

[url=http://www.toolbase.org/tertiaryT.asp?TrackID=&CategoryID=1979&DocumentID=4781]zero energy home[/url]

This was built a few blocks from here. The new homes were going for about $250 sq ft. I think the zero energy version was going for around $300 sq ft.

[ChuckWalla]

rats.. i can't get the link thingy to work

[lona]

Realsih-

-your pretensions to robotic rationality, you really are just as much a bundle of ill-considered social prejudices as anyone else. -

What the hell are you talking about?

a) who made this pretense and in what form?

b) what about social prejudices are antithetical to libertarianism, (no one asked to outlaw Whole Foods) Why would a libertarian necessarily have to like all the activities that they support legally, what's the connection? Can i still be a libertarian if I don't hire a prostitute or snort coke, but think they should still be legal?

You talk out of your ass.

[thoreau]

Certainly libertarians have no duty to like whatever people might do in free markets. That said, I would find it hard to understand why anybody could be upset over a business that decides to voluntarily patronize a clean energy source.

However, I've seen little evidence of that in this thread. I overreacted with my reference to a previous thread where many people bashed the CEO of Whole Foods.

Some people are definitely more enthusiastic about this than others. Some are skeptical that the move will work out in the long run for Whole Foods.

The strongest criticism to be made is nonetheless a weak one: That wind power is subsidized. I don't claim to know much about the workings of the wind power industry, but if a person wants to see a technology gain ground and thrive and break free of subsidies, the best thing to do is purchase it. Now, it would probably be best to purchase from the least subsidized wind company.

But I can't see any serious argument against what Whole Foods is doing. If somebody believes that technological advances and environmental goals should be addressed by the free market, then what Whole Foods is doing is in keeping with that. Whatever the secret motives of the CEO may be, if this move works out it will satisfy customers (which is always good for profits) and at the same time advance a new technology. What's not to admire?

[Hakluyt]

thoreau,

Who the fuck are you actually arguing against? Have you created an invisible rabbit and named him Harvey?

That said, I would find it hard to understand why anybody could be upset over a business that decides to voluntarily patronize a clean energy source.

Who is upset about what Whole Foods may or may not be doing?

[js]

Re subsidies for wind power: have you ever actually looked at a Dept of Energy budget? Let's just say, it's not going mostly to wind power. It's mostly for nuclear and fossil fuels, plus nuclear power is subsidized by the defense budget as well (some might say other fuels are subsidized by the defense budget also .... but I'll leave that one alone).

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Chuck, I like Tucson, got in-laws out in Vail, clients in town, and have considered moving there off and on for years.

Interesting house, thanks for the link.

I'd really like to do an in-ground house in the desert, that'd be fun. I'm also partial to the old style adobes like the Bandini house in San Diego that's built around a courtyard. Fairly energy efficient with the thick adobe walls and sheltered from all the elements on the inside.

BTW, where, exactly, does Tucson gets it's water and what's the long term outlook for water troubles there? Thanks for whatever help you can be.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

The strongest criticism to be made is nonetheless a weak one: That wind power is subsidized.

Thow-row, it's uglier than a mud fence, that's the strongest criticism. If it was a chick, it'd be a two-bagger. Now THAT was pretty sexist.

[Sam]

This might be more your style, Teh Wine Dude:
http://tinyurl.com/bdf75
Ross Perot's new whirly gig.

[amazingdrx]

"People on H&R go on and on about how "price is supreme"

The actual price of the electrical equivalent of a gallon of gas worth of transportation energy..is one dollar.

With the cost of wind electricity at 2 to 3 cenrs per kwh, the price would be 25 cents per gallon equivalent of electricity to charge the batteries of an electric vehicle.

Libertarians? Free markets?

Nope, these are neo-libertarian dupes, who buy into the corporate propaganda of neo-libertarian think tanks pandering for corporate funding. They are sophists.

Who are paid to support nuclear power, clean coal, and oil wars at all costs!

[Matt Moore]

In other news, Wal-Mart will continue to power their stores with clubbed baby seals. And I'll still shop there, since its cheaper.

Not quite. The new Aurora store has a wind turbine sitting next to the parking lot.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

The women who shop at Whole Foods are almost always hot.

And their organic fire-roasted salsa totally rocks.

[SPD]

What the hell are we arguing about here? I lost track.

[rxc]

"...much better than slapping windmills in the parking lots."

Actually, I think it would be better for them to install the windmills that they need to power their stores right there, in the parking lots. And when the wind doesn't blow, or the sun isn't shining to power the solar panels, then they go on batteries till it does, or they then just shut their doors and throw out all the refrigerated food. That would be the only ecologically-correct way to power a business. I wonder how many people would want to show there with a 300 foot windmill over their head.

Afterall, isn't the enviro creed all about local food, and local generation of power, etc?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

SPD:

Good question. If a private company wants to sell leftist moralism I say more power to them. There's no coercion and all players involved are getting something out of the exchange.

We should reserve our snarkiness to the real fucktwats.

[amazingdrx]

"The women who shop at Whole Foods are almost always hot"

Exactly, chics dig sustainability. 'Nuff said.

You neo-libertarian boyz go have a circle jerk... er...cum to think of it this blog is exactly that.

Ewwwwww...i'm outa here.

(Not that there is anything wrong with that. at the very least it helps control the population of inbred neo-libertarian morons, hehehey)

[Timothy]

Phun Phact:

According to the Hairy Ball Theorem of topology (yes, really, just Google it) there must always be a place on earth where the air stands perfectly still.

The Hairy Ball Theorem is undoubtedly Herrick's favorite theorem.

My favorite thing from topology, not that I know anything about topology really, is the Davis Manifold (not that I actually have any idea what it is). The only reason is that the father of a friend of mine from college invented the thing, and we got a lot of milage teasing him about the here-to-fore hypothetical Mama Davis Manifold.

[AmyLou]

hope this post is neither too far down nor too far off topic. Thought I would put this link to an article by Mises about libertarian views on environmentalism and reconciliation between preservation of the environment and economic growth. In light of the inspired debate preceeding my post, I thought some here might find it interesting.

http://www.mises.org/etexts/environfreedom.pdf

Cheers.

[James Anderson Merritt]

When you take I-580 from the SF Bay area to Tracy CA, you get to see windmills that are definitely not ugly. They are not NATURAL, but they do appear to be graceful engineering, which provides an interesting counterpoint to the landscape, especially during the spring. I wouldn't mind seeing more of them, even here around ecologically-minded Santa Cruz.

I'm sorry that Wine Commonsewer's windmills are ugly.

Were it possible to set up a windmill or two in the parking lot, I think a lot of people would shop at Whole Foods. It sure would be easy to find: "Take the 41st Avenue exit and head right, toward the windmill. When you get there, park!" Don't underestimate the power of imposing landmarks to fuel business, especially if you can claim they are environmentally progressive.

I can't say I have seen any hot women in the local Whole Foods, but I'll keep my eyes open and report back. 🙂

[AmyLou]

sorry, correction to post above, Mises did not write the paper; writing credit is attributed to Walter Block. The paper can be found on Mises.org.

Sorry for the misquoted attribution of authorship.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

With the cost of wind electricity at 2 to 3 cenrs per kwh, the price would be 25 cents per gallon equivalent of electricity to charge the batteries of an electric vehicle.

I is apparent to me, as a running dog capitalist pig tool of the corporate system, that if this were an accurate statement, nothing on earth would be powered by fossil fuels.

[Sam]

well..what does it cost to get the same electricity off the grid as it would from a gallon of gas in a home generator (even with cogeneration). Obviously we generally don't run our homes on gasoline.

However, cars need portable fuels for long commutes, right now batteries ain't it. Even fuel cells are iffy. Soon though capacitors and regenerative brakes will make short trips with grid electricity preferable to petrol.

[amazingdrx]

"right now batteries ain't it"

Yes they are.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/9/1442710.html

Try taking your head out of your fellow neolib's asses (this blog) and smell the coffee. Maybe that would be more effective for you?

[Sam]

I think you should ease off the coffee a bit.

And I guess I should have elaborated: "batteries for Long Range trips" then, especially in heavy vehicles...using cheap Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries, which are limited by Cobasys' (owned by Texas oil interests) patented licenses; whose legal nature prohibits practical use in production Plug-in Hybrids. Even so, batteries just don't have the energy density of diesel or even gasoline. Though it would be nice if they did. And we aren't really talking about such.

Poeple will buy wind power (and other non-fossiles) if they have the option, even if it is more expensive than convetional rates. The Evidence, "Sold Out":
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/green_power_sol.php

[JD]

amazingdrx - Regarding the battery thing, it seems to me that there are two possible alternatives.
1. People don't use electric power and batteries because these methods are not economically efficient (which can happen because of a variety of infrastructure issues, not necessarily because of anything inherent to them)
2. People don't use electric power and batteries because: there's a giant conspiracy/everybody is stupid/Bigfoot made them do it

I can tell you which one of these looks more plausible to me. While all of us are irrational some of the time and some of us are irrational all the time, I believe that history shows that on net, people do the rational thing. This suggests that if people aren't using energy source X, there's probably a rational reason for it.

[Phila]

So development is good and environmentalism is bad, but wind farms are "a blight on the landscape." And people who support free-market alternative energy solutions through new technology are "zany enviro-luddites." That seems pretty incoherent, to me. And anti-progress, too.

BTW, today's designs for wind turbines don't really threaten birds, especially when they're sited properly. The ones that do the most damage are on the Altamont Pass in CA, and IIRC part of the problem is old-style design, and another part is poor siting (Rep. Richard Pombo worked out a sweetheart deal whereby his parents get paid handsomely for siting them on their land, even though they're in the migration path of the Golden Eagle).

In any case, WAY more birds are killed by office buildings with large windows. To say nothing of powerlines and trucks.

[Dar]

I think it would be great to look outside and see a windmill. No electric bills would be a beautiful sight to me. I know this would require me owning them myself but a guy can dream right.

Most of this windmill stink seems to be coming from the same states that refuse to drill for oil and natural gas. Now they don't want wind or solar either because its "ugly to look at," sweet mother of pearl where do these people come from?

These are the same people that get pissed off when they have brownouts and power shortages then have to pay high power rates on top of it all.

Is it just me or do these states not really seem to care if they have power at all? Pull the plug on them for a few months and I bet we will be hearing the virtues of wind and solar power and how we need to be more active in exploration for oil and gas.

When no amount of alternatives will satisfy the enviromentalists then fuckum let them live in the dark since thats what they want anyway. Or how about some of them getting together and solving the power problems with some innovative no way to generate power. Maybe if we hooked generators to their non-stop running mouths we could all power our homes for free.

As for Whole Foods I went once and saw beef jerky for dogs for a mere $16 a pound. But hey it was organic.

Exactly what makes Whole Foods King Crab legs organic and worth 3 times more than other stores? Don't all king crabs come from the same place?

So shop at Whole Foods and lose weight. After all most people would only be able to afford 1/5 the amount of food they usually get so think of the calories saved.

Whole Foods = Whole Paycheck

How much would a basket filled over the top with the usual goods cost in that place anyway? I am gonna guess $1200. Needless to say while looking around I did notice one thing, not a single person had much in their cart and no one had it full or even 1/2 full.

Ask your doctor if its right for you!

[Dick Cheney]

Thanks for the link, AmyLou.

As for the car thing, I've been looking into that lately, and the technology is just about there. After a flurry of activity in the late 90s, automakers abandoned the idea, just when battery technology is getting there (li-ion). It *is* possible now to make an electric car that's as useable as a regular one, and battery prices are not astronomical (thanks to laptops). As far as I can see, the market is wide open.

[Eric the .5b]

"Neo-libertarians"

Sheesh, what random leftie site linked this post? (And yes, leftie. Long before anyone was trying to crossbreed "neo-con" and "libertarian", this was the preferred perjorative for libertarians by random far-left types who wanted to call themselves that while wanting huge, intrusive governments.)

[oops]

Damn joke names biting me in the butt...

[Eric the .5b]

Personally, I prefer the libertarians' habit of mocking companies they don't like to other groups' habit of trying to attack companies they don't like through the legal system or politics.

[Sam]

What exactly is a 'Neo-Libertarian'? I realize neocons aren't strictly conservative, and are radical religonists; and neo-liberals are exactly liberty lovers...anymore. So what's new among libertarians?

[Mike]

Whole foods and others of their ilk are selling an identity to their customers through their brand. Jonah Goldberg at national review wrote an article about what this is really all about, "Gaiam Somebody" http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg030701.shtml
Not that they don't have good stuff, but part of the reason people shop at Whole Foods is because it makes them feel good. Some proportion of their target demographic feels that green consumerism is good, and that makes them feel righteous. The management of Whole Foods isn't stupid.

[amazingdrx]

Neo generally refers to adherents of neo-corporate feudalism, the political philosophy pioneered by neo-conservatives.

Neo-liberals are liberals coopted by neo-corporate power, and neo-libertarians are generally think tank related neo-conservatives disguised under the liberatarian banner.

No actual libertarian institutions exist, all coopted. sorry to give you the bad news. Hehehey.

[Dar]

Dick Cheney - While I agree electric cars have come a long way as have batteries and their ability to hold larger charges. However, there is one aspect to electric powered vehicles that all the enviro droolers are overlooking.

Where does the electricity that charges the batteries come from? Are these people hooking their staionary bikes up at night and cranking away to recharge the car batteries? My guess is they plug it into the wall. I bet if you follow that plugs wire back to the source you will find a electric plant burning coal, natural gas or atomic fuels on the other end. So unless your charging up at night with the wind or during the day with solar your still polluting.

Anyone know if there has ever been a study on the emissions of electric cars back at the power plant inclusive? In the end its probably a wash as far as helping the environment is concerned, although it may put a small dent in foreign oil demand. Most things in life have a give and take flow to them, as one goes up the other goes down or they are in direct inverse relationship to one another. Like a planes surface drag increases proportionally in relation to increase in speed.

Ask your doctor if its right for you!

[realish]

Everyone seems to be assuming -- rather than, say, arguing -- that wind power and organic foods are boondoggles created to suck discretionary funds out of the wallets of liberal do-gooders.

But why? Oil pollutes. Coal pollutes. Wind -- putting the absurd bird issue aside, and putting aside manufacture of the turbines themselves -- doesn't. I know for a fact that organic food tastes better, and lots of folks -- including Consumer Reports -- seem to think there are health benefits in avoiding pesticides and hormones in agribiz food.

More to the point: This attitude of flippant contempt for environmentalists, and for socially concerned shoppers generally, strikes me as a kneejerk affectation. Perhaps it's time to update your stereotypes. Or at least justify them.

[amazingdrx]

As I said before, if the electricty to charge a plugin electric vehicle comes from solar or wind power no fossil fuels need be burned.

And 100s of millions of parked vehicles each with 100kwh of battery storage can store that renewable energy, days worth of distributed power storage that will provide emergency power for your home in a storm outage.

This latest battery design can provide 200 mile range with only 200 pounds of batteries. and a 5 minute charge time. The same time it takes to fill up with gas.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Realish, flippant contempt for eco-fascists is just damn fun. But listen, on many other threads and on this one even, we've seen a lot of positive environmental remarks.

I'm an environmentalist myself. I have at least 2.5 acres of virgin land filled with snakes, owls, eagles, got dam rabbits that eat everything I plant, coyotes, and bobcats. Yet the complaints about what I do with the other acre and a half of my land come from those who live in concrete jungles where every last vestige of wilderness has been bulldozed and paved (including the creek bottoms) so the residents can conveniently buy stuff from the local Whole Foods, Birkenstock store, and a latte at Starbucks to enjoy in the family Volvo on the way home. That's why it's fun to pick on eco-fascists.

I'd agree that some (read: some, not all) organic foods taste better but in the beginning that was exactly the problem with organics: they didn't taste good.

Hi, I'm Yul Gitmann and I want you to try my new cereal. Just add Milk and Bricks and you'll grow up to be old like me.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

I'm sort of imagining the environmental nightmare when it comes time to dispose of the dozen or so lead acid storage batteries from each of the 100 million or so electric vehicles zooming about the highways and biways when the nation fully implements electric power for cars.

[dead_elvis]

By the time we get to the point of having substantial numbers of electric cars, no one will even remember that there was a time when lead-acid batteries were ever considered useable for that purpose. We're already a couple of generations past those in battery technology.

[amazingdrx]

Hehehey. Flush more wine down that sewer.

Sober, dumb, and republitarian is no way to go through life..

[joe]

TWC,

100 people living in a quarter acre of concrete jungle and walking or training to work do one hell of a lot less damage than 100 people living on Chemlawned acre spreads and driving 22,000/year. Even if the latter feel good about themselves because they get look at trees out their window.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

DE, yes we are beyond lead acid in technology but those hi-tech batteries cost as much as a car and you still have a disposal problem.

I love technology and I don't dispute that technology will resolve every social and environmental ill but before that can happen it has to be cost effective. We left whale oil and horses for petroleum because it was cost effective to do so not because of the filth, the flies, or a love of our fellow mammals.

I don't think electric vehicles are the answer although they may provide a piece of the answer under some limited circumstances.

Plus, you're dead on that if we resolve the cost effective issue the technology will evolve well beyond what we can imagine. At such time the term battery will be as disconnected from it's original meaning as the term glove compartment is now.

We're really not on different pages entirely, I'm just a little more skeptical.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Amazing, if you mean to imply by the use an obscure epithet......well, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside.

[joe]

You know what a CD player cost in 1985, Mr. Sewer? Eight hundred bucks, in 1985 money.

But you are correct about less polluting cars being only part of the solution. The 22,000 miles/year lifestyle should not be an assumption we base our efforts around. There are better ways to design communities.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Mr Joe, your perceptions are a bit skewed, most people who commute 22k per year live in little pink houses on postage stamp size lots not acres of chemlawns. BTW, I don't have a lawn at all. And my commute is shorter than yours.

Since we're weenie waving about costs......

When I was a skinny guy with longer hair I bought a Sony reel-to-reel for $450.00 and a Kenwood 4 channel receiver for $850.00 (marked down from $999.00) at Pacific Stereo. It was the hot ticket. You haven't lived until you've heard Santana Abraxis in discreet four channel. So there. What's a good receiver now? Buck Fifty? Two Bucks? Ahhh technology is grand.

I don't remember exactly when I got with it and bought some CD's but Mrs TWC bought me a double deck CD player for Christmas some years ago and it seems like it was about $250.00.

100 people on a quarter acre? Dude, that would require a 20 story building to store a hundred people inside. Then what do you do with their gross polluters? BTW, do you work for the City of Portland? (I know, bad joke)

[amazingdrx]

Step up and read commonsewer. You may find a bit of enlightenment.

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=14294&hed=Battery+Pumps+Up+Power+Toolshttp

You need to get someone to show you how to copy and paste this link into your browser. And what the terms link, browser, and copy and paste mean...oh..forget it.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Sorry dude, I have no idea what copy and paste means. But if you wanted to rub my nose in it you should have done it like this:

Stop and read commonsewer. You may find a bit of enlightenment

*That* would have been much cooler. Buy you books and all you do is eat the got dam covers.

BTW, potential is marvelous. I remember when Sanyo had a solar cell that was very close to cost effective. Then we never heard any more about it. That's the problem with technological innovation, the promise is golden but the reality is often less so. But, every so often lightning strikes and, voila!