The Constitution's Private Parts
In a New York Times op-ed today, Dan Savage suggests that we do away with one source of controversy in Supreme Court nominations by amending the Constitution to explicitly create a right to privacy, ending much debate over just which penumbras it emanates from. The idea certainly has some appeal: Even those of us who applaud the upshot of Griswold and its progeny will admit that a lot of the cases in this line—Roe in particular—rest on legal reasoning that often seems shaky.
Savage does hint in the direction of a problem with this approach, though I think it's a more serious one than he recognizes. He writes:
Of course, passing a right to privacy amendment wouldn't end the debate over abortion - that argument would shift to the question of whether abortion fell under the amendment.
Yes indeed. What, after all, is the "right to privacy," and what does it encompass? George Washington University law prof Daniel Solove attempts a taxonomy of privacy in an excellent law review article published earlier this year (of which LawMeme has a handy summary), and what's striking is just how many disparate components it comprises. But we needn't split hairs quite so finely. In Katz, in which the Supreme Court adjusted its understanding of the Fourth Amendment to compensate for the emergence of technologies that could "search" without physical intrusion, it has increasingly come to protect Secrecy as well, as have various statues governing, e.g., medical privacy. Decisions protecting the right to abortion, or creating a protected sphere of sexual liberty, fall more squarely under the rubric of privacy as Autonomy.
Obviously, these are linked concepts. The Latin root "privatus" signified both isolation (hence "privation" and "deprived") as well as that which belonged to the individual—in the personal sphere as opposed to the public. That notion of a protected sphere—whether physical, informational, or decisional—cuts across all three. But taken together, they cover a huge amount of territory.
The actual line of privacy cases is actually probably better described as covering a territory of sexual and medical liberty—as Posner has quipped, if the Lochner court had only appealed to "privacy" instead of "substantive due process," they might have had a better go of it. It's still a nebulous concept, but its origins in case law serve to anchor it to some degree. But imagine some future jurist trying to interpret a "right to privacy" amendment on the basis of, say, an "original public meaning" standard. Which meaning would she latch on to? The problem is precisely that "privacy" has so very many colloquial meanings. I'm all for protecting each of the kinds of privacy Posner discusses, but we'd be smart to do it with a bit more specificity and precision.
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if we have to specify every right we have, there are going to be a myriad of new amendments to the constitution. can't we just appeal to the ninth amendment and be done with it? my understanding is that was the point of the ninth amendment, to avoid having to enumerate every right left to the people
This is a terrible idea. It would affirm that Bork was right and that the Ninth is an inkblot. We should never become a nation where our rights need to be enumerated. That would, once and for all, shift the balance of power from the citizen to the state. I hope this idea dies quickly.
BTW Julian, specificity in law has severe drawbacks. I'm a much bigger fan of discretion and the human factor. See Philip Howard's The Death of Common Sense.
We might be better off with a vague right to privacy than clearly defined one. Anything not explicitly mentioned in the amendment will be considered fair game, and the specified terms of the amendment will wind up whittled down so as to be effectively meaningless.
But imagine some future jurist trying to interpret a "right to privacy" amendment on the basis of, say, an "original public meaning" standard. Which meaning would she latch on to?
Now that we understand this Constitutional construction problem so well, we can write the correct frame of reference right into the amendment. Specifically, the amendment can say "this amendment to be interpreted according to an original meaning standard." Or "this amendment to be interpreted according to a living document standard."
Personally, I think there are even better standards to choose from, but the basic way to establish some process control here is to force the legislators to anticipate the future ambiguities and give an algorithm for resolving them, instead of allowing their intended interpretaive theory to be treated as a nose of wax for SCOTUS to play with over the generations.
MP:
The downside is that no one can rationally project from the current concept of privacy to specific laws that might violate such a right.
Imagine removing the 2nd amendment and trying to argue only from the 9th that banning ownership of firearms at a Federal level is unconstitutional.
Didn't Hamilton mention something about the dangers of enumerated rights in the Federalist Papers? I seem to recall that his defense of the Constitution, sans Bill of Rights, was that once we start listing rights, we are effectively stating that there are no others.
Why don't we pass an amendment that just reminds the SCOTUS about the 9th Amendment (and asks them to re-read the 10th, and oh yeah tells them that the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th are disappointed in them).
The Constitution's Private Parts
Is that a Howard Stern movie?
Or, to put it another way, those who are not demanding that interpretive frame instructions be written into any Const. amendment at this late date in history should be estopped from complaining later if SCOTUS uses a disfavored interpretational method.
the 9th amendment is merely a rule of construction that says "previous list of enumerated rights not exclusive." and applying the standard rule of ejusdem generis, other rights that might also exist should be similar to the ones enumerated in the bill of rights (i.e. political rights, not specific substantive rights such as abortion). the 9th itself neither creates nor specifies any rights. much as we might like it if every conceivable right could be protected under the 9th, it is sophistry to make such an arugment. if we read the 9th to reserve specific "rights" to the people, then just as surely the 10th reserves to the states "powers" to outlaw such specific rights.
Off topic but Nick's on CNBC right now!
"Imagine removing the 2nd amendment and trying to argue only from the 9th that banning ownership of firearms at a Federal level is unconstitutional. "
Not that I disagree with you at a modern, practical level, but can you see why those against including the BoR were afraid?
If you don't have the explicit mentions of rights, EVERYONE has an interest in defining liberty rights broadly by construing the powers delegated to the government narrowly. You don't get bogged down in arguing which rights you like and which you don't. Having explicit rights mentioned creates the inference that government creates or grants these rights. That wasn't what was believed then - the belief was that these rights exist in nature, and that men come together and institute government to protect these rights. It's entirely backwards to talk about rights granted by the government.
The fact that we need to have a 2nd amendment to make a strong argument today is a scary thought. And it is exactly that reason why I find Bork and his reasoning to be among the scariest of Constitutional interpreters and interpretation. It should be the government's burden to establish that an action or law is "necessary," in the commonly understood meaning of the word, to protect the rights of a citizen. Not "helpful," or "probably useful," or "statistically more beneficial than costly," but "necessary." As in, we know with near certainty that a right will be violated without this action or law. Once we lost that concept, the rest of the downhill slide was inevitable.
CSD,
If two parties sign a contract, they need an interpretive framework to understand the terms of the contract? The whole "Living Constitution" theory has no basis in law. It is utter crap invented by people who sought to circumvent the wording and impose their preferences.
Jason,
I'll take my chances as is. If an amendment was added that clarified Barnett's "Presumption of Liberty", then I'd be for it.
jimmy,
I have one word for you: Incorporation.
"the 9th amendment is merely a rule of construction that says "previous list of enumerated rights not exclusive." and applying the standard rule of ejusdem generis, other rights that might also exist should be similar to the ones enumerated in the bill of rights (i.e. political rights, not specific substantive rights such as abortion). the 9th itself neither creates nor specifies any rights. much as we might like it if every conceivable right could be protected under the 9th, it is sophistry to make such an arugment"
Randy Barnett has done an excellent job debunking this historically inaccurate view.
" if we read the 9th to reserve specific "rights" to the people, then just as surely the 10th reserves to the states "powers" to outlaw such specific rights."
Yep, right on both accounts. The idea was to allow each state the ability to regulate its internal affairs, while allowing people to come and go as they pleased. Of course, the 10th was passed with the understanding that most states had constitutions that protected the same rights, but that is somewhat irrelevant. The idea was that if people didn't like the way NY protected their rights, they could leave fairly easily. Further, the population in the states was much smaller, allow for a more representative democracy. Population increases, along with the increased federal role, changed this dynamic.
It is also important to note that the modern democracy fetish was not the view back then. Many were actually not fans of democracy, they just accepted it for certain limited areas. With the understanding taht the smaller the democracy, the more say the individual has in it. Which is why the 10th was seen as an important piece of the puzzle as well.
So if you were the legislator, and I were your faithful page, MP, then we would draft our proposed amendment to read:
"[substance of amendment] ... This amendment should be interpreted by any interpretive theory other than a Living Constitution theory."
A bit loosey-goosey for my tastes, but we pages are a pretty submissive lot.
How about we just amend the Ninth Amendment to add the words "and we mean it!"?
"Didn't Hamilton mention something about the dangers of enumerated rights in the Federalist Papers? I seem to recall that his defense of the Constitution, sans Bill of Rights, was that once we start listing rights, we are effectively stating that there are no others."
JMoore,
Hamilton also scoffed at "Freedom of the Press" as being devoid of any discernable meaning. The problem of using Hamilton to defend our rights is that he wasn't concerned with them. His concern was creating a powerful central government using the ruse that it would still be federal in nature.
CSD,
I wouldn't want to ever give the "Living Constitution" theory an air of legitimacy.
If there was a Right to Privacy amendment, the Supreme Court would either refuse to incorporate it into the constitution, or interpret it as meaning that only crooked politicians have a right to privacy. Bastards.
So, MP, are you arguing that we should not, and do not, have any Constitutionally-protected rights aside from those that were generally understood and accepted in 1789?
Okay, here is the redraft:
"This amendment may be interpreted only according to the following interpretive frameworks:
(a) Original Meaning; or
(b) the framework laid out in Prof Lessig's 1993 article on Constitutional interpretation."
Any to add, MP? Subtract? Man, you know how to work a page!
"jimmy,
I have one word for you: Incorporation."
MP
Where is that word in the Constitution or amendments?
Bah. You are all dodging the real question. Where do a women's rights end, and a baby's rights begin? Does the baby get Constitutional protection at conception? At Birth? Somewhere in between? Why do we think that the Constitution even tries to answer this question? It took a pass on slavery.
The Privacy argument is entirely a question of enforcement. How does the government know she's pregnant? What right does the government have to review her medical record?
I could respect a politician who says, "Abortion after 6 months is murder, but I can't figure out how to enforce it."
Am I the only one who thinks Griswold, Roe and Lawrence were all sound decisions? And that the penumbra/emanations argument was a sound way of applying the 9th amendment to specific "rights reserved by the people"?
So, MP, are you arguing that we should not, and do not, have any Constitutionally-protected rights aside from those that were generally understood and accepted in 1789?
Not at all. If you looked up Rights in the dictionary in 1789, would you find a treatise on Natural Rights theory, and all of the included items supported? No, you would find basic definition of the concept of Rights.
The same goes for all other terms in the Constitution. Terms such as Commerce and Regulated were well understood in their general sense. Where the "Living Constitution" logic fails is that those words today, as interpreted, have almost no relationship to their original definition.
Does anyone have a concise example of what explicitly enumerated protections have been used by the courts to guarantee the right to privacy?
That is a slippery slope upon which I often find myself. I'm often confronted with that question by the "what's yours should be ours" crowd (I work on a college campus). They like to use that lack of specificity in their favor. Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in CotUS or BoR law to answer effectively.
I never bought the Hamiltonian argument, although I think he did have something of a point. I remember Justice Scalia many years ago defending his decision in the Georgia sodomy case; he said that the court could not find any explicit right of privacy in the Constitution. And if that's how you look at it, he's right. Having a list can (sort of) imply that you don't have those rights not on the list, the 9th notwithstanding.
Still, I prefer to have my social contract in writing.
rdkraus,
That word is used to describe how the 14th amendment interacts with the rest of the Constitution.
I always found Scalia's "the founders all thought X" version of legal interpretation to be dishonest. They didn't agree on any every issue anymore than a large group of people today agrees on every issue.
Besides, As I see it, the constitution was never meant to specify what individual citizens can or cannot do. It was meant to organize a government, and define what that government could or could not do.
the basic way to establish some process control here is to force the legislators to anticipate the future ambiguities and give an algorithm for resolving them
These are the people who can't balance the nation's checkbook. You want to let them play with algorithms?
But a general right to privacy might be a very good idea. Maybe then we could keep the government from making warrantless searches, detaining people without a trial, banning certain firearms, regulating political speech, making decisions based on religious belief, taking private property or regulating what we do on it, and so forth.
Of course, all these protections are already explicitly stated, and being ignored. Why would privacy be any different?
Besides, what we're really aiming for here is a freedom of sex amendment. Woo ha!
Am I the only one who thinks Griswold, Roe and Lawrence were all sound decisions? And that the penumbra/emanations argument was a sound way of applying the 9th amendment to specific "rights reserved by the people"?
No. I for one agree with you.
nmg
These are the people who can't balance the nation's checkbook. You want to let them play with algorithms?
There are economic temptations that prevent them from balancing the checkbook. Besides, MP and I wrote some sample algorithms for them above. As you can see from my exemplars, it is not difficult to write this kind of algorithm (so long as you are willing to ride the intellectual coattails of intellectual giants like Lessig and Bork).
While I count myself as a 'strict constructionist', the reality is that if a large majority of the population votes for anti-liberty politicians, there is no scrap of paper or magic language that can protect liberty.
I tried to introduce a platform plank to the effect that a constitutional amendment should be passed to affirm and guarantee a right of privacy in one's person, household, familial association and non-public affairs in my district Democratic convention in 2004. Although those I got to sign on to it understood the idea would cover a lot of ground the Democrats support including abortion, marriage, etc., and were enthusiastic, it went down in flames. I was astonished.
I reworded the plank to say "Be it resolved that the Democratic Party recognizes a Constitutional right of privacy persuant to articles so-and-so and Amendments such-and-such, and reintroduced it. It still crashed and burned. Couldn't believe it, half the people there were radical gays, the other half were immigrant rights types, all of which had a huge stake in my plank.
Talking to people afterward, I got some insight. Apparently, everyone wants personal privacy, but aren't very enthusiastic about granting it to others.
I have since rethought the idea, and although I think personal privacy is critical and should be shored up somehow, particularly under an authoritarian Republican regime, I'm not sure a specific amendment is the way to do it.
Especially given the curious phenomenon where those motivated to ban something seem to turn out in much bigger numbers that those who oppose such a ban.
A couple of points:
1) The 9th has NEVER meant what we'd all want it to mean in any practical way.
2) I agree that we shouldn't want a land of enumerated rights of the people, but I note that the only ones that generate popular outcry are the ones we have written down or the ones that have vocal consituencies. I'm a constitutional skeptic. Constitutions are all doomed to bend to public demands and crises as time goes on, and stare decisis will tend to enshrine ever expansive governments as the law of the land regardless of original intent. I do not believe that the course of legal evolution would be altered for the better if we just have the 9th or something similar in lieu of a Bill of Rights. I think that a reasonably clearly enumerated right gives you clear cause to get action in the courts, whereas an assumed rights blob can not practically survive anything in the way of populist challenge.
I guess I'm saying that I know how I feel about the constitution and rights, but I also know that no one else feels that way, and that is what matters. It is one reason I no longer make constitutional arguments. They are effectively meaningless to people who don't already agree with me.
I can see the argument that having a list of enumerated rights implies that they're the only ones we have and that's bad.
But I have news for you: we lost that one.
There is a list of rights. I don't see how adding one would send any more of a message that our rights need to be enumerated than there is already. Nor do I see it as a de facto repeal of the 9th Amendment. The 9th Amendment would still stand as it is to either be taken seriously as it should be or called an inkblot, depending on the judge. But there would be no more of a reason to call it an inkblot than there already is. Enumerating the right to privacy would only have the effect of saying: In case there was any doubt [which evidently there is at this time], THIS ONE is "in".
I'd support a privacy ammendment if it were all encompasing, but I doubt the main advocates of the "right to privacy" would be very supportive of an ammendment that protects real privacy rather than a tiny list of social positions important to the leftist elites.
MP
My thought is that if the drafters of the 14th wanted to incorporate something (or just selected somethings, as is usually argued), they would have used the word incorporate. Why not say what you mean? It's so simple. This Amendment incorporates the First, Fourth and Fifth (or whatever) Amendments ...
No. This is the Court "making things up." It's exactly the kind of judicial activism that most (some? all? a couple? who knows) conservatives are talking about when we say let's stick to what the document says and, if you want it to say more or less, propose an amendment, as provided for in the document itself.
The fact is the Constitution doesn't say anything about privacy or abortion and, if it had, the founders probably would have included it as a capital offense.
I wouldn't want to ever give the "Living Constitution" theory an air of legitimacy
dead law for dead societies, mr mp.
I hasten to add that of course this would not entirely solve the matter of sorting out the inevitable (gee, thanks Mother Nature!) conflict between the rights of the embryo/fetus and the rights of the woman. But it would at least solidify the notion that the woman does have rights in this matter, as well as make explicit that there is an inherent limit on what government can do and where it can go when it is not explicitly protecting someone's rights (which should be necessary for justifying most all of government's actions).
Am I the only one who thinks Griswold, Roe and Lawrence were all sound decisions? And that the penumbra/emanations argument was a sound way of applying the 9th amendment to specific "rights reserved by the people"?
Well, the "emanations of penumbra" argument has nothing to do with the 9th Amendment, except to deny its validity. Its a denial of the 9th Amendment, because the argument is that the right to privacy has validity not because it is a right reserved to the people, but because it is an emanation of a penumbra of various enumerated rights. The right to privacy is, in effect, a species of enumerated rights itself, or depends entirely on the enumerated rights for its existence.
Blackmun, like most modern/liberalish legal thinkers, is a positivist, which means that if it ain't enumerated, it ain't real. His opinion is a positivist's opinion, and is profoundly at odds with the natural rights thinking embodied in the 9th Amendment.
MP
My thought is that if the drafters of the 14th wanted to incorporate something (or just selected somethings, as is usually argued), they would have used the word incorporate. Why not say what you mean? It's so simple. This Amendment incorporates the First, Fourth and Fifth (or whatever) Amendments ...
No. This is the Court "making things up." It's exactly the kind of judicial activism that most (some? all? a couple? who knows) conservatives are talking about when we say let's stick to what the document says and, if you want it to say more or less, propose an amendment, as provided for in the document itself.
The fact is the Constitution doesn't say anything about privacy or abortion and, if it had, the founders probably would have included it as a capital offense.
Am I the only one who thinks Griswold, Roe and Lawrence were all sound decisions? And that the penumbra/emanations argument was a sound way of applying the 9th amendment to specific "rights reserved by the people"?
I lean this way too. I look at it like this: Practice always comes before theory.
The fact is that Americans have always respected and exercised a huge sphere of personal privacy with respect to government unheard of in almost any other culture. It derives from SOMEWHERE, even though it is not specifically addressed constitutionally. It seems perfectly reasonable to backtrack into the Constitution and list those propositions that tend to uphold that right, as practiced, and apply them to certain specific exercises of that right such as abortion, family planning, marriage, etc.
This is not to say the right itself derives from the Constitution, but the reverse, that the common practice of the right of privacy is the derivasion for those Constitutional provisions.
I always found Scalia's "the founders all thought X" version of legal interpretation to be dishonest. They didn't agree on any every issue anymore than a large group of people today agrees on every issue.
absolutely, mr david. there simply was no monolithic original intent. it's a caricature for the disaffected to cling to.
what originalism means is that the current arbiters want to dump two hundred years of case law and hard-earned practical experience for a primitivist ideological revolution in which *they decide* what the new law should be -- because after all, they know what the founders were **really** thinking. that much should be obvious about originalism.
and what allows such advocates to get away with such a railroading is the deification of a 230-year-dead version of bureaucracy in american national mythology, in combination with the desperate fracturing of the social compact in our day. many people today simply cannot brook allegiance to modern political management -- so they absurdly decide that they can instead follow fictionalized hero-politicians who are long since dead -- thereby reconciling their pavlovian fealty to the national religion with their fear and loathing of the management class.
i don't think it ever strikes such desperate and naive minds that they are worshipping politicians who were every bit as petty, narcissistic, divided and territorial as the postmodern version -- who immediately set to bickering once the common threat of british revenge was gone, and even before -- and who have the further disadvantage of being dead and unable to speak to postmodern problems that didn't exist in the 18th c.
The problem is that a "privacy amendment" to the US Constitution will be absolutely dead on arrival. Even the most vaguely worded amendment would be savaged by the religious right as codifying Roe and Lawrence and you'd have no hopes of getting a two-thirds of Congress to vote for it, let alone getting it ratified by the three-quarters of the states.
dead law for dead societies, mr mp.
why gaius, I though dead societies were your heaven? 😉 BTW...why do you continue to be unable to distinguish between Original Intent and Original Meaning?
RC Dean,
Thanks for adding the clarification.
rdkraus,
I suggest reading The Bill of Rights: Creation and Reconstruction by Akhil Amar.
I'm a constitutional skeptic. Constitutions are all doomed to bend to public demands and crises as time goes on, and stare decisis will tend to enshrine ever expansive governments as the law of the land regardless of original intent. I do not believe that the course of legal evolution would be altered for the better if we just have the 9th or something similar in lieu of a Bill of Rights. I think that a reasonably clearly enumerated right gives you clear cause to get action in the courts, whereas an assumed rights blob can not practically survive anything in the way of populist challenge.
that's a very legitimate argument, mr ligon. how can any government that claims for its basis the mere transient ideas of some men of some period in time stand against decay?
so the question seems to be -- do we acquiesce to a continually-developing law as the product of trial and error, even if it sees fit to abandon ancient concepts (such as natural rights) when they are perceived to become insufficient, even if that means engaging in the dangerous practice of altering our government to our needs -- or do we submit to a cadre of ideological revolutionaries who would wipe centuries of case law away to establish a government of "original" ideas which, whether they be actually original or not, stand in stone, inviolate, even if they become patently ridiculous and obviously damaging as our circumstances change?
If the politicians would add "right to privacy" amendment,lawyers and law enforcement would figure out a way to twist and bend it like they do to every other amendment.
What convinces me now that a privacy amendment is a bad idea are the "definition" amendments being proposed (and passed in some states)to thwart specific exercises of a right to privacy: The Definition of Marriage Amendment, one to define human life as beginning at conception and ending at death, and others.
The "Conception" amendment, as it has been termed in leaflets I've gotten after having some letters to the editor printed, would be hugely radical. Imagine hospitals issuing "conception certificates", confering official existence and rights to a hundred-cell blastocyst or week-old embryo, instead of issuing birth certificates. It's clear that government has historically defined life as beginning at birth and ending at death. This would be as activist as you could get.
As long as the privacy amendment fails to cook on the front burner, there's still hope that stupidity like this will also fail to catch fire.
why do you continue to be unable to distinguish between Original Intent and Original Meaning?
because the difference is fallacious, mr mp.
we both understand that there was no monolithic original intent, i think.
but even the concept that there was a universally-understood original meaning to the words is simply a reduced version of the same fallacy. laws and constitutions, then as now, were written nebulously, intentionally and unintentionally, such that reasonable people might reasonably disagree as to what the law in fact meant. this is the entire reason for the need of human arbitration (in the form of a court).
it isn't as though the law were codified and then, for some period, no one took anyone to court over an interpretational issue. such issues appeared immediately even between the founders -- and that is because, just as there was no monolithic original intent, there was also no monolithic original meaning.
and that is just as it should be! such flexibility in law is not only unavoidable but absolutely necessary for a law to be anything but absurd in its application. human beings must fit idealized laws to real, complex situations as best they can -- and this is the place of the courts.
gaius,
Please explain why I should accept the reinterpretation of Commerce as "trial and error" instead of an underhanded re-write. There is nothing in Original Intent that disallows for the evolution of Natural Rights theory. Get over your distaste for Scalia.
I more or less agree with gaius. Our legislators are known to frequently write laws that people look at and go "huh?" Meanings are frequently unclear. (Anybody who's filled out California's non-resident tax form knows exactly what I'm talking about.)
Indeed, a recent ballot measure in TX, if interpreted in a not-too-unreasonable manner, could be construed as ending all legal marriage in TX. Which would be fine to many people here who want the gov't out of marriage, but it seems unlikely that this was the intent. (And yes, I know, that was a ballot measure, not legislation, but I venture that some politicians and lawyers had a hand in drafting the measure.)
I'm not saying that a historical perspective has zero value for interpreting the Constitution, but let's not try to read the Constitution the way that fundies read Genesis.
I'd be happy with any interpretation that doesn't allow a handful of clauses to become blank checks that render the rest of it meaningless.
but even the concept that there was a universally-understood original meaning to the words is simply a reduced version of the same fallacy.
gaius...most of that post is very sound. But if I have a law that says "everyone is to be granted one free apple a year", and then I give them an orange and say "close enough", and then the court says "well, they are both fruits, so we'll let it pass", at some point the people are going to stand up and say Goddammit, an Orange is not an Apple!
That's the point of Original Meaning. It disallows a complete redefinition. If you allow for a redefinition, then there remains no legitimacy in "the rule of law".
Please explain why I should accept the reinterpretation of Commerce as "trial and error" instead of an underhanded re-write.
i don't claim to know that either is "right", mr mp. the difference is between, on the one hand, using a definition of the term that has been crafted by more than two centuries of jurisprudential experiences -- and, on the other, essentially taking antonin scalia's word for what the law ought to be, based on a debatable rereading of this or that federalist letter.
i reject the latter because it is, despite its name, profoundly divorced from actual history even as it seeks to emulate a fictional idealized history -- not to mention a nakedly extraconstitutional attempt to radically change the operating system of our society.
This article seems kind of helpful:
http://www.cqpress.com/incontext/constitution/docs/constitutional_law.html
Money quote from the original Marshall stack:
?Its nature, therefore, requires that only its great outlines should be marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves,? Marshall wrote. ?We must never forget that it is a constitution that we are expounding.?
gaius,
laws and constitutions, then as now, were written nebulously, intentionally and unintentionally, such that reasonable people might reasonably disagree as to what the law in fact meant.
1. It's funny that you attribute a purpose to unintentional actions.
2. It's weird to think of people intentionally writing a law or constitution so that it's hard to know for sure what they meant. So that it's flexible to changing circumstances is one thing, but so that it's literally difficult to understand is absurd.
But if I have a law that says "everyone is to be granted one free apple a year", and then I give them an orange and say "close enough", and then the court says "well, they are both fruits, so we'll let it pass", at some point the people are going to stand up and say Goddammit, an Orange is not an Apple!
that's a lovely analogy, mr mp -- and if law (and indeed language) were ever that simple, i'd agree. but it isn't.
when you say apple, do you mean only malus domestica or does that include malus sieversii? and what of malus baccata and malus sylvestris? and what of a new breed or even genus that results from biotechnical engineering? there are over 7500 cultivars, says wikipedia. and cranapples? cranberries and pomegranites are also quite close genetically.
and don't even get me started on oranges. 🙂
"or do we submit to a cadre of ideological revolutionaries who would wipe centuries of case law away to establish a government of "original" ideas which, whether they be actually original or not, stand in stone, inviolate, even if they become patently ridiculous and obviously damaging as our circumstances change?"
The other side of the equation is worse than you make it sound gaius. The problem is that if you don't submit somewhat to some concept of rights, there is no necessary connection between the current whim and the previous whim. In particular, it would be farce to argue as though most decisions of the Old Man court of FDR somehow represented centuries of accumulated case law. Rather, those decisions represented moments of political expediency. It is hard for me to accept that stare decisis should govern the whole process when I see how conceptually disjointed and politically motivated current law is.
You appeal to stare decisis for its own sake, or for the sake of the stability it theoretically supplies. To me, stare decisis is a tool that only makes sense to the extent that the current decision is grounded in the previous one. There should be a tracable evolution of legal ideology, and the role of stare decisis is to make sure that evolution is in small steps. We must acknowledge that the understanding of the role of government did not evolve as a result of pressures from a court packing scheme - what happened was an ideological upheaval of the kind you hate. We can no longer pretend that we are building on previous wisdom to any great extent. What we are building on is pure legal theory by populism.
that's a lovely analogy, mr mp -- and if law (and indeed language) were ever that simple, i'd agree. but it isn't.
And if I'd used a Pen instead of an Orange in my analogy? You are simply too willing to let societal trends redefine the set point. If you have to point to a causal chain that is 800 links long to explain why smoking my homegrown pot is now Commerce, then the original foudation that gave birth to the logic chain is no longer of any relevance.
But yes, I know that you are unconcerned that the Constitution is irrelevant (and I don't mean that as a dig).
It's funny that you attribute a purpose to unintentional actions.
there certainly can be, mr fyodor, if freud meant anything -- but i don't mean to imply it in what i wrote.
It's weird to think of people intentionally writing a law or constitution so that it's hard to know for sure what they meant. So that it's flexible to changing circumstances is one thing, but so that it's literally difficult to understand is absurd.
read the eu constitution? 🙂
but, more to the point, mr fyodor, reasonable people can reasonably disagree on what is or is not Commerce. as i said above, it really is reasonably debatable as to what an apple is --language is inexact by its nature, but beyond that we use words to represents idealized forms. no two apples are alike; we use an idea to symbolize all apples. but once that is done, it becomes reasonably debatable as to what particular objects in our experience fit or do not fit within that ideal form.
then to represent Commerce -- a conceptually difficult word with infinite variations of meaning -- as though its idealized form were universally understood identically across all men? THAT is what's absurd.
original meaning is based on a reductive fallacy that a highly complex term like Commerce was universally understood to mean exactly this thing by everyone in society at this certain time. this has never been true of any word at any time in any society -- to pretend otherwise falsely diminishes the true depth and complexity not only of language and ideas and human beings but the phenomenal world.
What we are building on is pure legal theory by populism.
A very succinct and meaty bit of wisdom. When Franklin said "A republic, Madame, if you can keep it," after the signing, what he was referring to keeping it safe from was small-d, run amok democracy.
A Constitutional amendment recognizing a meaningful right to privacy will happen soon after the nation comes to a consensus on abortion and a bunch of states legalize drug use and prostitution. By then our money won't say "In God We Trust" and an amendment will be passed that says solely "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
And if I'd used a Pen instead of an Orange in my analogy?
it matters not, mr mp. every word in the language that is meant to represent the idea of an object is malleable because no single object ever fits the ideal. then it becomes a matter of where to draw the border of exclusion -- and this will always be a point of contention among reasonable people.
You are simply too willing to let societal trends redefine the set point.
i would say, mr mp, that i have more confidence in and less conceit directed toward my forebears. the idea that everyone who came before me was wrong, that they made the law this way because they were confused and silly -- what greater arrogance is there than that? what greater deprication of all their efforts and experiences and choices is possible?
to say as much is not only arrogant -- it is ignorant of the possibility that the founders' ideas are not Universally Correct and Applicable -- that the application of their ideas to the real situations faced over the last two centuries forced the choices that crafted the law as it is.
Commerce -- a conceptually difficult word with infinite variations of meaning
Any word could be said to have "infinite variations of meaning." You seems to be advocating a very nihilistic approach. Why even have a Constitution if it can be reinterpreted infinitely?
gaius:
Again, is isn't that everyone before you was wrong. Current law has very thin correlation to the accumulated legal wisdom of the ages. It is defined largely by two or three punctuated acts of titanic stupidity and self interest- which mindless adherence to precedent would enshrine for all time.
While I agree with the various posts about the US becoming a state of enumerated rights, I feel that the concerns are overstated for the given context. There is a reason that the Constitution does not simply read, "People may do as they like, so long as they are not infringing upon the life, liberty, or property of others." Certain personal freedoms are more likely than others to be limited by the government. The Bill of Rights was included to protect the freedoms that were most consistently threatened at the time.
It must be remembered that the Constitution was drafted in a less sophisticated age. I think we often forget that it was about this time that Ben Franklin was just figuring out that electricity flows. Technologies like genetic screening for hereditary diseases, camera phones, and Google have radically altered the nature of our freedoms and, necessarily, the ways government can interfere with those freedoms. Given that the nature of liberty has changed in the past few centuries, it might be wise to update the document designed to protect them. A number of states, including a few of those the much-maligned "Red States" have recognized this already. For instance, Article II, section 10 of the Montana Constitution reads, "The right of individual privacy is essential to the well-being of a free society and shall not be infringed without the showing of a compelling state interest."
The problem is that if you don't submit somewhat to some concept of rights, there is no necessary connection between the current whim and the previous whim.
which is why i'm not nearly as depricating of a moral government as many here are. our government, in taking pains to separate morality from management in separating church from state, attempted to allow for the virtue of dispassionate rulership -- but also, in the end, adopted the vice of fatally undermining its own claim to authority and allegiance.
You appeal to stare decisis for its own sake, or for the sake of the stability it theoretically supplies.
i would prefer not to apply it for its own sake ex nihilo -- but seeing as we are not going to have a government of obvious morality, one is forced to take what one can hopefully still get. that would be mere stability (until that too becomes impossible).
"The right of individual privacy is essential to the well-being of a free society and shall not be infringed without the showing of a compelling state interest."
I like this very much, although I wonder what precedents have been set since to determine what a "compelling state interest" might entail.
The biggest problem with a privacy amendment is that an expansive reading of the commerce clause trumps everything else anyway.
Any word could be said to have "infinite variations of meaning."
exactly, mr fyodor. this is why the courts are important.
Why even have a Constitution if it can be reinterpreted infinitely?
i really think of the constitution as a starting point for the 230-year dialogue about what the law in our society will be -- a dialogue which i think is ending, btw, and originalism is a symptom of that end. like any act or idea of man, it is not inviolate -- if one treats it as such, one is being idolatrous and deceiving oneself -- and it is not the law.
the law is the dialogue that sprang and grew from it. ignore the dialogue for the hollow original words, and you effectively empty the document of the vast bulk of its meaning and do away with the very concept of a lawful society. what you will have in its place is a tyranny of the ideas of a few.
It is defined largely by two or three punctuated acts of titanic stupidity and self interest- which mindless adherence to precedent would enshrine for all time.
and we could reject this for, what -- a single act of our titanic stupidity and self-interest? 🙂
besides, i think you underestimate the difficulty of the choices that our forebears were faced with. it's fashionable here to say everything since fdr was just a big mistake -- but such is the easy conceit of those who do not have to make the choices they did.
"I guess I'm saying that I know how I feel about the constitution and rights, but I also know that no one else feels that way, and that is what matters. It is one reason I no longer make constitutional arguments. They are effectively meaningless to people who don't already agree with me."
Come further down the rabbit hole, Alice...join us in voluntary governance land (I've chosen to leave the term anarcho-capitalism behind, because the term anarchy has too much baggage). 🙂
Paper will never restrain a state. No matter what is written on it. States have never remained limited in history. Isn't it said that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time?
You can have governance without a state. It's only years of brainwashing that makes people think that the state is necessary.
what greater arrogance is there than that?
I'll offer up another simpleton's analogy. If I'm driving from FL to NY on 95 and accidently take 10 and end up CA, then I've taken a signficant wrong turn. All of the results of taking 10 could have been eliminated by not taking 10 in the first place.
There are probably 10 or 15 historic SCOTUS decisions that Original Meaning advocates would point to and say "that's where we went down the wrong path". Being able to point to such a discrete number of cases undercuts your arrogance argument. In many cases, its the blind allegiance to stare decisis that allows one to build massive amounts of case law on so very few starting points. The quantity of case law that was built upon these key decisions is irrelevant to the quality of those decisions.
The biggest problem with a privacy amendment is that an expansive reading of the commerce clause trumps everything else anyway.
The privacy amendment can be written to trump the Commerce Clause. Since MP was neglecting his lonely page, let me spec this one for you:
"[substance of the amendment] To the extent that there is any inconsistency between this amendment and the Commerce clause, this amendment shall control."
See, T. Easy for a lawyer!
I like this very much, although I wonder what precedents have been set since to determine what a "compelling state interest" might entail.
My guess would be it depends on the needs and whims of prosecutors and police forces. As we've seen, anything can be made to seem like a compelling state interest.
Why not an abortion amendment? I can't see privacy stirring up enough emotion to get through all the work of a new amendment.
What sort of abortion amendment? Pro or con? Or perhaps mandatory?
For all its faults, and it had some, common law was evolutionary, and reflected distributed, historical wisdom. Legislation, on the other hand, is revolutionary, and reflects popular, momentary, passion, often with little regard to long-term effects.
You can argue that there is a balance to be struck between the two, but quite clearly the balance should favor the common law more than it currently does.
clarityiniowa,
I didn't want to say pro nor con. It would be a thread jack.
gaius:
I don't think you are following me all the way. If one group of people can respond to a political challenge without appealing to precedent and then insist that we use stare decisis to enshrine their pet project, every other group should be able to create equally valid but opposite law for their own purposes and then turn around and insist that precedent is on their side.
Stare decisis doesn't serve the purpose you want it to serve. Populism reigns.
For all its faults, and it had some, common law was evolutionary, and reflected distributed, historical wisdom. Legislation, on the other hand, is revolutionary, and reflects popular, momentary, passion, often with little regard to long-term effects.
An excellent point. I have ancestors who helped homestead Western Iowa. Many were in common law marriages - essentially "jumped over a broomhandle" and got around to letting the authorities know about it later, when and if a justice of the peace or sheriff became available, and when they felt damn good and ready to do so. They would have laughed at the very concept of a "marriage license", let alone a 'defense of marriage" act or amendment.
There are probably 10 or 15 historic SCOTUS decisions that Original Meaning advocates would point to and say "that's where we went down the wrong path".
i would ask, mr mp, why no one before these revolutionaries thought that those turns were wrong (or at least, wrong enough to reverse them)? it isn't as though the court cannot correct its errors even as it respects precedent -- it's done so on several occasions on the demerits of a particular decision.
but this is not that, and doesn't pretend to be so, mr mp. originalism is an ideological movement coming in to change the basis of law fundamentally -- away from the 230-year dialogue of experience and toward the reinterpreted ideas of a few.
"The biggest problem with a privacy amendment is that an expansive reading of the commerce clause trumps everything else anyway."
I know we all like to beat up on the Commerce Clause here, but an amendment is normally read by courts as taking precedent over language in the Constitution and any earlier amendments even in the absence of a specific reference. That's why, when Congress purports to criminalize speech (for example, virtual child pornography) pursuant to the Commerce Clause, the Supreme Court still strikes it down as a violation of the First Amendment. The only exception to this I know of is the Supreme Court's jurisprudence on the 21st Amendment, where for the last 50 years the justices have been reading the language of that amendment more and more narrowly relative to the commerce clause.
For all its faults, and it had some, common law was evolutionary, and reflected distributed, historical wisdom. Legislation, on the other hand, is revolutionary, and reflects popular, momentary, passion, often with little regard to long-term effects.
You can argue that there is a balance to be struck between the two, but quite clearly the balance should favor the common law more than it currently does.
absolutely, mr quasibill. i think we should do far more to distinguish the immense difference between law and legislation. they are not the same.
Paper will never restrain a state. No matter what is written on it. States have never remained limited in history. Isn't it said that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time?
the blind allegiance to stare decisis
If one group of people can respond to a political challenge without appealing to precedent and then insist that we use stare decisis to enshrine their pet project, every other group should be able to create equally valid but opposite law for their own purposes and then turn around and insist that precedent is on their side.
mr mp, mr ligon -- if the court were forbidden to reverse itself w/r/t particular decisions, this would be a concern. but it isn't -- there is no "blind allegiance" to precedent. mistakes are made, and the courts have acknowledged several by altering or reversing interpretation vis-a-vis particular decisions.
the courts sticking to interpretations of laws you or i find distasteful does not mean the courts are blind -- it means we reasonably disagree within the dialogue.
but that isn't what originalism is about. originalism is about changing the basis of law from experience to ideology. it is a rejection of all the past compromises forged of jurisprudence in real events and replaces them with idealized mantras devoid of experience. this sort of utopianism has a horrifying history, of course.
originalism is about changing the basis of law from experience to ideology.
The United States is an experiment in ideology. The Constitution is a static representation of that ideology. It is not simply the next step in a series of consequential actions.
By your reasoning, when this country finally sheds its Republican pretenses and becomes a Dictatorship, what will you say? "This sucks, but at least we legitimately got to this point based on the consequential accumulations of our past experiences"? Mob rule. Everyone loses.
but this is not that, and doesn't pretend to be so, mr mp. originalism is an ideological movement coming in to change the basis of law fundamentally -- away from the 230-year dialogue of experience and toward the reinterpreted ideas of a few.
This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the history of Constitutional law. Originalism isn't some new approach cooked up at the Heritage Institute during the Clinton Administration. It is instead pretty much what the Court did for decades and decades. Sure, there was a drift away from natural law thinking during that time, but by and large the Courts stuck with textualism and original intent.
Rather, the "revolution" in Constitutional law is not the proposed return to originalism, but rather the jurisprudential and political shifts beginning in the 1930s that threw open the doors to our current unlimited government .
Since that time, Con law has had a lot less to do with the words of the Constitution, and a lot more to do with the words of the Supreme Court.
Ultimately, the constitution was doomed to failure from the beginning. If it had remained inviolate, interpreted according to strict originalism for the last 230 years, undoubtably many people's rights would have been taken away or ignored as society changed drastically. On the other hand, if it is so lightly referenced and continually reinterpreted according to distinct, popular whims during the timeline, it has no real meaning and people's rights are taken away or ignored.
It really is a brilliant document. It's fatal conceit is that it relied on people who do not have the same distrust of government, who do not share the same values of individual liberty. It required people to act as responsible stewards in changing the law, which they have not always done. We see throughout the last 230 years times when people hold too strongly to an old idea, while at the same time rapidly pushing through a new one.
Honestly, the very fact that we still hold the Bill of Rights as important and critical to our society at all is proof of how fundamental those ideas are and how well the constitution has actually held up.
gaius:
From what basis would the courts acknowledge that a given decision was a mistake? It seems to me that outcomes, history, and ideology are all on the table as potential starting points for mea culpa corrections. If that is the case, I don't know that you have as strong an attachment to precedent as it at first seems.
"Rather, the "revolution" in Constitutional law is not the proposed return to originalism, but rather the jurisprudential and political shifts beginning in the 1930s that threw open the doors to our current unlimited government ."
Actually, the shift occurred much earlier than that, at least with Lincoln's Republicans and their "American Plan" for federally subsidized "improvements". And you can trace further back than that, with the first flirtations with the national bank and other Federalist/Whig proposals. Heck, as someone mentioned, Hamilton was quite clearly a forerunner to FDR. There's actually quite a valid argument that the Constitutional Convention itself was a putsch organized by mercantilists - they were not authorized to write a new document, but rather to iron out some small issues with the Articles.
The stronger federal government created by the Constitution is clearly less libertarian than the one created by the Articles.
originalism is about changing the basis of law from experience to ideology. it is a rejection of all the past compromises forged of jurisprudence in real events and replaces them with idealized mantras devoid of experience.
What gaius is describing is common law, which is case law as evolved by judges over time. I'm a big fan of common law, and its erosion and replacement by legislation in many areas is a loss, in my opinion.
Con law is not (or should not be) common law, because Con law is fundamentally the explication of a text, an in many ways legislative text. Common law and the interpretation and application of legislation are fundamentally different projects, because a judge working in the fields of common law is not bound to a particular, canonical text, and is thus free to evolve the doctrine over time. This freedom comes because the judge can only bind the parties before him, and not create a rule that is generally applicable.
A judge applying legislation or a Constitution is bound to a single, canonical set of words which are intended as general rules applicable to everyone. The Constitution is a fundamentally ideological document, gaius, and one that judges are not free to disregard the plain meaning of because their experience inclines them to compromise its meanings.
originalism is about changing the basis of law from experience to ideology. it is a rejection of all the past compromises forged of jurisprudence in real events and replaces them with idealized mantras devoid of experience.
What gaius is describing is common law, which is case law as evolved by judges over time. I'm a big fan of common law, and its erosion and replacement by legislation in many areas is a loss, in my opinion.
Con law is not (or should not be) common law, because Con law is fundamentally the explication of a text, an in many ways legislative text. Common law and the interpretation and application of legislation are fundamentally different projects, because a judge working in the fields of common law is not bound to a particular, canonical text, and is thus free to evolve the doctrine over time. This freedom comes because the judge can only bind the parties before him, and not create a rule that is generally applicable.
A judge applying legislation or a Constitution is bound to a single, canonical set of words which are intended as general rules applicable to everyone. The Constitution is a fundamentally ideological document, gaius, and one that judges are not free to disregard the plain meaning of because their experience inclines them to compromise its meanings.
Actually, the shift occurred much earlier than that, at least with Lincoln's Republicans and their "American Plan" for federally subsidized "improvements".
Sure, the pressure for bigger, badder government has been there all along. Heck, Oliver Wendell Holmes laid some of the essential jurisprudential groundwork for the current freewheeling positivism back in his day. I don't think it really turned the corner or get critical mass until the 1930s, though.
"It's fatal conceit is that it relied on people who do not have the same distrust of government, who do not share the same values of individual liberty. It required people to act as responsible stewards in changing the law, which they have not always done."
I think some blame can also go down to the fact that they underestimated the growth in population - which would loosen the constraints on democracy - as well as the attractiveness of the new country to immigrants, who ultimately created identity politics and multiplied the number of special interests at play. Both of which confirmed their basic fear of democracy, but which they failed to adequately protect against (if it was possible to protect against it).
"Con law is not (or should not be) common law, because Con law is fundamentally the explication of a text, an in many ways legislative text"
Except the source for many of its provisions was British common law, especially with respect to natural rights. The only 'revolutionary' aspect of it lay in some of the procedural bulwarks in place to effect separation of powers - but even that had a history in British common law.
"I don't think it really turned the corner or get critical mass until the 1930s, though."
Ack - it gained critical mass when the Civil War was waged. The war was entirely based upon which government was sovereign - the state, or the big bad centralized federal government. The original constitution was a voluntary arrangement between sovereign states. The Constitution after 1865 was a centralized government with some small areas left to the control of the states as long as the feds felt like it.
the idea of a limited government that stays limited is truly utopian
Since advocates of limited government are not trying to build a "utopia", it's a blatant misuse of the word to use it against them. Now, it might be reasonable to say that it's "unrealistic" to think that limited government can stay that way. And maybe so. But unless one is utopian in one's thinking, ie, unless one thinks that showing any faults in one system proves that there is a better alternative, this is an irrelevant argument for utopia. To wit:
limited government has been tried.
Meaning...anarchy has not been? I wonder why! 🙂
Unlike quasibill, I'm stuck.
I no longer believe that constitutions can function to check populism over the long run, but I don't believe that anarchy can work to prevent more basic domination of the weak by the strong.
All I have is a limited government vision that has some fuzzy boundaries and the hope that the document saying certain specific things will at least make people pause before using the document for toilet paper.
I think some blame can also go down to the fact that they underestimated the growth in population - which would loosen the constraints on democracy - as well as the attractiveness of the new country to immigrants, who ultimately created identity politics and multiplied the number of special interests at play. Both of which confirmed their basic fear of democracy, but which they failed to adequately protect against (if it was possible to protect against it).
That's certainly true. A thought experiment: Take a relatively small, generally homogenous group of settlers who enshrine their values and ideas about government on a piece of paper. Now, fast forward 200 years, during which time population and diversity grow exponentially, economic and technological growth occurs at unprecedented mind-staggering rates, and massive cultural events both inside and outside the settlement occur at regular intervals. Do those people 200 years in the future, by and large, share anything with that small group of settlers, let alone hold as fundamentally important that piece of paper? If I didn't know better, I would say absolutely not.
Some (myself included) may not be happy about how the constitution has been interpreted and dissected, but I still think it's amazing that, given the events of the last 200 years, it's intact at all.
All I have is a limited government vision that has some fuzzy boundaries and the hope that the document saying certain specific things will at least make people pause before using the document for toilet paper.
I'm pretty sure that's all the aggregate
of the signers had in mind for it. I've read nothing that would lead me to believe the Constitution was expected to hold back the tide of history like Hoover Dam. More like the Lock and Dam system on the Mississippi, which merely tries to manage the ebb and flow and keep depth and navigability somewhat consistent.
I appreciate when the creators and writers of a show realize it's peaking and leave us wanting more. "Everybody Likes Raymond" almost, but not quite, lasted too long. The backstage squabbles and salary maneuvering crept in and nearly poisoned the show the last couple of seasons. But the series was, in the end, very respectful to its loyal following.
Posted the above to the wrong thread. Please disregard.
How about this:
Section 1: No State or locality shall prohibit the sale, distribution, or use of contraception.
Section 2: No State or locality shall prohibit consensual sexual activities between informed, competent persons of legitimate age.
Section 3: This article shall not be construed to alter or affect the status of any other aspect of a right to privacy which may exist.
Adding an explicit right to abortion would make it politically impossinle to pass. The other stuff has a chance(although gays have yet to gain full acceptance and we might have to say "noncommercial sex").
If such an admendment is passed then we could still have the same argument over the rest of the right to privacy, but even an originalist court would have to uphold the rights mentioned.
My take is that the "privacy" question is that it's just a deception. The real problem is power. Who has it, and what it's used for.
To illustrate: I'm walking down main street. You see me, I see you. No privacy. No problem either. We both have equal power. Add in a government security camera and now they have power that you don't, a permanent record.
Apply the "power" principle to most anything. Medical records? I don't usually care who knows how many sick days I take, or why. Most times I broadcast it all over the office because I'm sick and miserable and want sympathy. BUT, I have the power not to.
Now look at the tenth ammendment. The Federal government has enumerated powers. Stick to them and the "privacy" problem goes away.
Since advocates of limited government are not trying to build a "utopia", it's a blatant misuse of the word to use it against them.
I expect Rothbard was responding to the fact that anarchists get called utopians all the time and was tossing the accusation deservedly back at the minimal government types. Like you, I realize that neither side in the debate believes in utopia.
MikeP,
I agree that was Rothbard's rhetorical purpose. But I think that factually it is in error, as are you when you say "deservedly." The charge that anarchists are utopian calls for its own rebuttal rather than a fallacious counter attack.
jeffiek,
Your argument is correct, only with the qualifier, "so far is it goes" tacked on. Reminds me of when I told my shop motorcycle-riding shop teacher that I heard motorcycles were more dangerous than cars and he responded that if everyone drove the way they should neither would be dangerous. When I relayed that to my folks, of course they pointed out that since people don't always drive the way they should, what happens when they don't is quite relevant. Likewise, it would be nice if we could keep the government from doing anything that the Constitution doesn't say it can. But clearly, that does not always work. Another tool we have at our disposal is spelling out what it most aggrievously cannot do!
We should pass an amendment telling Dan Savage to shut his uppity ass up. Not forcing him to (that would be contrary to the 1st) just highly recommending it.
He's the fuckin' Al Sharpton of queers.
The charge that anarchists are utopian calls for its own rebuttal rather than a fallacious counter attack.
Perhaps. But then, "As Murray Rothbard is supposed to have said, anarchists are not utopian and if you have a couple hours I can try to convince you" just doesn't have quite the same ring.
I like the quote because it's a cute -- rhetorical, yes, but cute -- way of seeing the big picture. But as you say, the word "unrealistic" is probably better than "utopian" simply because it is less accusatory.
He's the fuckin' Al Sharpton of queers.
As a very, modern liberal friend of mine once said: We need an Al Sharpton, we just don't need Al Sharpton to be that Al Sharpton.
"Meaning...anarchy has not been? I wonder why! :-)"
It most certainly has - I think stevo has the links if you want them - Middle ages Ireland and Iceland, as well as several years in colonial PA when Penn was in England. Of course, you have to realize that anarchy in this sense means no state, not no government.
"but I don't believe that anarchy can work to prevent more basic domination of the weak by the strong"
Well, again, I'll remind you that anarchy, as Rothbard and his ilk use it, does not mean the absence of law or government. It means the absence of the state. Rothbard actually wrote quite extensively on the subject, and much of it is available for free online from mises.org.
"Since advocates of limited government are not trying to build a "utopia", it's a blatant misuse of the word to use it against them."
Actually, I think the term utopian is fairly appropriate. Your world requires that only people with your political views control the reigns of power. Our own history shows that even if you start with that situation, it will quickly devolve. Believing that someday politicians will be trustworthy and honest is utopian. And as our current situation shows, when politicians aren't trustworthy and honest, no paper outlining limited government is going to maintain limited government.
Just like every other good or service, security and law are best provided through the open market, with competition being the only effective check on abuse.
The United States is an experiment in ideology.
i think that misreads the origin of the country, mr mp. our founders were not rousseauian revolutionists -- they were disaffected english parliamentarians. their love of england and its common law remained strong even after leaving the commonwealth.
moreover, if that's all it is, it's truly amazing the united states hasn't failed spectacularly long ago.
but, i should say, i would agree that ideology played a significant if deleterious role in the founding.
By your reasoning, when this country finally sheds its Republican pretenses and becomes a Dictatorship, what will you say?
i think that the final abandonment of a common law of long experience for ideology is exactly that shedding of pretenses, mr mp, although perhaps many today do not recognize it as such. it is not a coincidence that alcibiades, caesar, robespierre and mussolini (not to mention so many others) all came to power on cresting waves of ideology over tradition.
you would say that the course of legislation and its interpretation has led us to the cusp of dictatorship. i agree that is indeed where we are -- but i would say that the abandonment of common law for the indulgence of ideas began in this society long before fdr, indeed well before the writing of the constitution, and that tyranny was the only possible result of confusing legislation with law so thoroughly.
It is instead pretty much what the Court did for decades and decades. Sure, there was a drift away from natural law thinking during that time, but by and large the Courts stuck with textualism and original intent.
i disagree heartily -- english common law continued to be the basis of government in the united states throughout, and the constitution was always interpreted through that centuries-old lens, mr dean. do you actually think the founders were rousseauians who were prepared to do away with their entire heritage? they were not.
but i would agree that, in the collision of common law with constitutional idealism, the constitution suffered some -- and in the later further abandonment for common law which brought the constitution to this faux exalted status of ignored holy writ, it suffered more. but you don't seem prepared to question why, mr dean. or do you assume it was because your forbears were stupid and deluded?
it's because the constitution itself is insufficient to be the law -- and that experience, rather than leading us back to common law, too frequently led us down further and greater expositions of naive idealism.
now comes originalism -- the greatest and most radical of these missteps. and yet, some see it as a solution to what ails our society, still imagining with ever greater conviction that experience is false. it boggles me.
From what basis would the courts acknowledge that a given decision was a mistake? It seems to me that outcomes, history, and ideology are all on the table as potential starting points for mea culpa corrections. If that is the case, I don't know that you have as strong an attachment to precedent as it at first seems.
experience is the basis, mr ligon -- but we have to acknowledge that common law, like scripture, is the product of vast experience. i agree with mr stretch -- the constitution was flawed from the start -- though we disagree as to why. insomuchas it represented a further flight from that experience rather than a return to it following the managerial missteps of english government, the constitution was destined to result in contradiction, conflict and social devolution, requiring ever greater management from the congress, the courts and ultimately a tyrannical executive.
the abandonment of the old law over the course of these last centuries left us with the mechanism of common law -- the court, using experience to interpret law -- in an ideological framework, where law could and was too often entirely rewritten and reinterpreted to fit new ideas.
it must be seen that originalism is no a solution to that problem -- originalism purports to do away finally with the mechanism and last vestiges of common law, elevating the constitution -- stripped bare of interpretation going back to marbury v madison -- to the status of scripture, thus becoming a dead law for a dying society.
There's actually quite a valid argument that the Constitutional Convention itself was a putsch organized by mercantilists - they were not authorized to write a new document, but rather to iron out some small issues with the Articles.
exactly mr quasibill -- the gradual abandonment of an ancient common law of experience for idealism and management is older than the constitution.
The Constitution is a fundamentally ideological document, gaius, and one that judges are not free to disregard the plain meaning of because their experience inclines them to compromise its meanings.
i would agree, mr dean, that it is in this sense inviolate. but common law too was held to an inviolate code in the health of western civilization, and that was christian morality -- itself a product of aeons of experience and reflection. and that is a far better and more durable code of social life than any invented constitution.
as a point of fact, however, the light of the constitution was plainly applied through the prism of common law and its adjunct courts. now it seems, after long erosion of common law and courts, originalism would deal them a death blow -- and replace them with a tyranny of ideology. that is not a society i would care to live in.
gm - If I interpret your rhetoric correctly, I think I agree with you. The interesting thing is that Originalists see themselves as bringing governmental practice in line with some supposedly more ideal past, as do you. Their ideal is simply a little younger.
Question: Are you mainly referring to early American common law, say territorial law before statehood in a certain region, or English common law?
The interesting thing is that Originalists see themselves as bringing governmental practice in line with some supposedly more ideal past, as do you. Their ideal is simply a little younger.
i'd be careful to say in my defense, mr iowa, that theirs is a law of ideas, and therefore ideal. i would rather to have a law of experience -- not ideal at all.
Are you mainly referring to early American common law, say territorial law before statehood in a certain region, or English common law?
the former being an outgrowth of the latter, i'm really talking about english common law -- but i'd happily take a step toward any non-idealistic law.