Cole Hitchhikes
Over at Slate, Christopher Hitchens makes a good case that Iraq was not the reason why New Orleans turned into a cross between Venice and San Quentin.
So, George Bush has already paid [for the administration's negligence after Katrina], as he should, a weighty political price for his literally fatal insouciance. What I cannot understand is why the people of Baghdad and Basra should be punished for a meteorological catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico. We should get out and leave them to their own devices. We need the stuff at home, goddamn it. This has all the charm and beauty of John Kerry saying that we ought not to be opening firehouses in Baghdad while closing them in the United States. It also has all the easy appeal of a zero-sum, provincial, isolationist mentality.
The problem, argues Hitchens, isn't that there weren't enough troops because they're all in Iraq; the problem was that, though plenty of troops were present, the president does not have the authority to use soldiers in law enforcement roles without state approval, which he subsequently received.
Hitchens closes with this paean to liberal internationalism:
A favorite trope among those who try to politicize the justified outrage over New Orleans is the plight of the slum-dwellers and the dark-skinned, and quite right, too. But it's highly objectionable to be told, by those who go on in this way, that we should instantly dump the Iraqis and Kurds who are fighting for their lives in a slum that could become another slaughterhouse and plague-spot. There is something degrading and suspect here-why lavish any of our care and resources on the wogs? Does this suggestion do anything to diminish xenophobia and resentment "at home," at just the time and just the place where we don't need it? Am I expected to tell a homeless woman in Biloxi that she has just been ripped off by an Ay-rab? A scuttle from Iraq or from Afghanistan (where the Kabul-Kandahar highway also took a lot of time and equipment and manpower to build) would add to the number of stricken and broken cities in the world, and not reduce it. If liberalism and humanitarianism do not mean internationalism, they mean precisely nothing. Shame on those who try to turn the needy and the victims against each other.
Hitchens has taken his hits of late, most recently from Juan Cole, who, having graduated from professor to engaged boulevardier, is making efforts at style, though the end-result reads more like a circa 1950s communist party rag. All that's missing here is a reference to "paper tigers" and "running dogs":
Bush administration foot-dragging and ineptitude in handling the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans has profoundly demoralized his [sic] supporters on the right […] These bellicose intellectuals--a band of Wilsonian idealists, cutthroat imperial capitalists, Trotskyites bereft of a cause, and neo-patriots traumatized by Sept. 11 are now increasingly divided and full of mutual recriminations.
In the end, Hitchens has usually been on the right side of the debate on Iraq because when he writes about it he thinks of Iraqis, not the Bush administration. For all his purported knowledge of Iraq's Shiites, though, Cole, as well as many other war critics, are really addressing Washington, as well as readers almost solely interested in the war's impact on Washington.
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If Thinking Global was the key to Truth, then the Marxists would have gotten it right long ago....
Anyway, though I lack Hitchens' military expertise, doesn't the "zero sum" analysis actually apply when you're talking about a finite number of troops, equipment and materiel?
though plenty of troops were present, the president does not have the authority to use soldiers in law enforcement roles without state approval, which he subsequently received.
That is nice, but I don't think driving an evacuation shuttle service Sunday-til-flood is a law enforcement role. It is a public transport role. To lump disaster relief in with law enforcement (especially in the pre-flood stage) seems intellectually dishonest, and it is pretty clear what the motivation is here for blurring these categories.
What I cannot understand is why the people of Baghdad and Basra should be punished for a meteorological catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico.
This, of course, assumes that the peoples of Baghdad and Basra would view an American withdrawal as a punishment rather than a desirable outcome.
Iraq "could become a slaughterhouse?" Are you effing kidding me?
Yeah, we need to stay indefinitely in Iraq, we can't spare a single man there, because otherwise, there might be violence.
Hitchens gets it 'right' by not thinking of the Bush administration?
This strikes me as akin to ordering Tim Wakefield to throw nothing but fastballs because the opposing team doesn't hit fastballs well.
You have to consider the pitcher and what he pitches well. In the case of Iraq, Bush and his incompetence is the single most important aspect of this whole campaign -- and the incompetence was clear as day way before the invasion.
"In the end, Hitchens has usually been on the right side of the debate on Iraq because when he writes about it he thinks of Iraqis"
Much like the security moms and drug warriors get it right when they write about things they think of "the children?"
There's a really good rebuttal of those "libertarians" who advocate the warfare/welfare state with all its positive obligations to provide for others here:
http://www.freemarketnews.com/pview/6115/2507/html/index.php
Summary - Young has it backwards when he says Hitchens has it right by ignoring what Washington does to its citizens. A committed libertarian STARTS an analysis with the costs a government imposes on its own citizens. Only once that is dealt with can you then go on to worry about any perceived benefits.
Wow, calling Cole by a French term and invoking communism.
Michael Young certainly knows which dogs he runs with.
neo-patriots traumatized by Sept. 11
I often disagree with Cole, but that's as good a description of the Charles Johnson/Roger L. Simon/Bill Whittle brand of Democrat-turned-uber-hawk as I've seen.
I find it hard to accept this rationalization from the defenders of the Big Government Republican president who created the post 911 Leviathan and has been a consistent enemy of states rights in the WOD and other cases. Now, they suddenly claim that he was helpless to act because he respects the constraints of a shredded document called the Constitution!? This doesn't hold water.
Hey Matt, long time. I think that what Hitchens meant was that you can't reduce Iraq to a simple formula of what they win there we lose here, and vice versa. If I understood him properly, he's suggesting that if Iraq gains, then so does the U.S.; so that if American troops are fighting thugs in Baghdad, or wherever, it's also a gain for Biloxi. He also pooh-poohs the "finiteness" argument, underlining there were plenty of troops around the Gulf coast.
The only thing that Hitchens might hate more than the Baathists are Theocrats. Due to the emergence of Islamic fundamentalism in the absence of Saddam, The cognitive dissonance in Hitchen's writing has started to become pretty obvious.
Hitchens writes:
But the president is not permitted by the Constitution to use the military for law enforcement, or not without the permission of the governor of the state, and the fuss about this is at least partly a cover for a feeble governor and a flaky mayor, who seek to displace the blame.
As a purely theoretical matter, before we get to the merits, libertarians and non-libs alike should be suspicious of a defense that runs: "The federal government is not to blame because it lacked sufficient power."
As a matter of practice, I am having trouble believing that this conversation took place:
State/local official: "Please help us; we're in desperate need."
Federal official: "I can help you, but only if you send me a piece of paper saying such-and-such."
State/local official: "We refuse to send you that piece of paper."
Maybe there is more to it than that, but the "state/local official refused to sign form" narrative is just not credible.
Maybe there is more to it than that, but the "state/local official refused to sign form" narrative is just not credible.
Great minds think alike (see above)
zero-sum, provincial, isolationist
these are the usual epithets thrown at people who question the need for a global american empire. no surprise that folks like mr young and (implicitly) mr hitchens would use them.
Am I expected to tell a homeless woman in Biloxi that she has just been ripped off by an Ay-rab?
oh, and also, those who question the need of an american napoleon are racists.
the right side of the debate on Iraq
lol -- read: the cult-of-world-conquest side -- read: mr young's side.
If I understood him properly, he's suggesting that if Iraq gains, then so does the U.S.; so that if American troops are fighting thugs in Baghdad, or wherever, it's also a gain for Biloxi.
That's an attenuated effect, for sure. One which might be very difficult to trace.
And from a cost/benefit standpoint, if we're interested in benefiting Biloxi, then the question is whether resources are better spent in Baghdad (in order to gain those attenuated benefits in Biloxi) or right in Biloxi itself?
If Baghdad fell to whoever is trying to win it tomorrow, the only effect on the US I see is we'd no longer be at war and we'd start saving tons of money. Is there really somebody out there making an actual case that turning Iraq into... whatever we're trying to do with it, somehow benefits the U.S.? That additional expenditures there will somehow lead to a profit for us later on down the line?
Doesn't a lot of what Hitch writes follow the Why Liberals Are Wrong On Bush theme?
Joe and Jennifer,
Are we to take all of your pithy comments about how much better off Iraq would be if the United States were not there to mean that you believe that the Iraqi government is competant enough to fight off the insurgency itself or that you want the insurgency to win and take over Iraq? If the first were true, it certainly puts lie to the "Bush messed up the whole thing by never planning for an insurgency" line you two trot out daily on this forum. Afterall, Iraq has already had one election and will have another in October. If it is strong enough to defeat the insurgency without our help, then I would say Bush has managed to create a fully functioning democracy in just over two years, which is no mean feat. If the Iraqi government is not capable of defeating the insurgency without our help, then our leaving would no doubt allow the insurgency to take over the country. Since you two apparently believe that the country would be better off without our being there and I find it difficult to beleive that you think Bush has done a good job at anything, it would appear that what you really are argueing for is a U.S. withdrawl followed by a insurgent takeover of the country as being what is best for Iraq. Do you really believe that Iraqis would be better off under the rule of people foreighn jihadists and leftover bathists? The war in Iraq is so horrible right now that consigning a country to rule under these people is preferable than continueing the fight? Or do you really just not care enough to give a damn about what happens there? If that is the case, I fail to see why you would be offended to be called defeatist appeasers.
John,
From the pithy comment I made here, all you can assume is that Hitchens is making an assumption, rather than stating a fact, when he said that pulling out our soldiers would be viewed by the Iraqis as a "punishment."
"In the end, Hitchens has usually been on the right side of the debate on Iraq because when he writes about it he thinks of Iraqis"
It doesn't matter what's in Hitchens' mind. All that matters is what he's "objectively-pro." I learned that in the runup to the war. When did this enterprise turn into a feelings contest?
"neo-patriots traumatized by Sept. 11" Actually, this describes me pretty well. I had a nice buzz on and wrote about September 14, the Day I Became A Patriot on a thread this past Fourth of July.
But to look at the Bush administration, look at Iraq, and say "Yeah, sure, that won't turn into a catastrophe," you have a to be an effing idiot, not just a patriot.
Maybe there is more to it than that, but the "state/local official refused to sign form" narrative is just not credible.
Except the governor of Louisiana did exactly that.
Damn those facts!
Terrell,
I don't think so. Hitch has been advocating for the Kurds for a very long time. He is unabashedly pro war-in-Iraq, but he seldom seems to equate his stance with whatever talking points the neo-cons are trying to foist on the public. I think that is what Mr. Young meant when he said that Hitchens was on the right side of the debate.
He may end up regretting throwing his support to Bush though. It always seemed like a marriage of convenience to me. One that is turning sour.
"This, of course, assumes that the peoples of Baghdad and Basra would view an American withdrawal as a punishment rather than a desirable outcome"
Jennifer,
This would certainly imply that you think the opposite of Hitch, meaning that you think the people of Basra and Bahgdad would view the withdrawl of U.S. forces as not a punishment but a blessing. Do you believe such a withdrawl would be a blessing? If so, I point you to the questions I asked in my original post. If not, then why question Hitchens on the issue?
John,
The first thing you take from my pithy comment is that those of you with bloody hands from the disaster unfolding in Iraq can take your professions that you care so much more for those poor people than us doves, and shove thm up your ass.
The second thing you can take from my pithy comment is that, as the CIA the field officers keep telling us, the occupation of Iraq by the US military is the reason an militarily-strong insurgency even exists, is the reason the insurgents have widespread support among the populace, and is the glue holding together the unlikely alliance between the various strains of Iraqi nationalists, the Islamist hardliners, and the international jihadists. The Iraqi security forces probably aren't strong enough to beat the existing insurgency. Absent the United States, they'd be plenty big enough to beat the much smaller, weaker, more fractured insurgency that would be left in the absence of our military presence.
The people of Basra would be ecstatic if the occupation ended tomorrow. Hell, they'd probably move the capital there, and put a nice Parliament building there - right behind the Grand Mosque.
John, I know you didn't address me (since I had commented yet), but I'm curious about something. What would happen if we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow? You say the insurgents would "win", but what does that mean? With all the various factions (Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, Baathists, and whoever the fuck else is over there), what would Iraq look like in a few months if we pulled out? And would "the insurgents" really win? And again, if they did, what in the hell does that mean?
I'm not saying that I definitely think we should get the hell out of there, even though I've been opposed to the war since the beginning, but those are questions that I haven't really heard answered. Since you seem to have some ideas about it, I'd sincerely like to know your thoughts.
Of course, anyone else is free to chime in, as well. 🙂
you think the people of Basra and Bahgdad would view the withdrawl of U.S. forces as not a punishment but a blessing.
No, Johnnycake, I merely pointed out that it's a hell of an asusmption for Hitchens to make, that the Iraqis WANT the Americans to stay.
If the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA can't organize a withdrawal from New Orleans within a day or so, then I fail to see the point in there existence. Give me back my civil liberties if you can't even respond to a natural disaster in a timely fashion. I will hold to my dying breath the belief that Bush shares a good section of blame for this catastrophic failure in response, along with Michael Brown and Katherine Blanco and a great deal of the higher ups in FEMA. Nobody, and I mean nobody used common sense, they all just sat there making platitudes while being impotent and useless. With this kind of leadership, we might as well be a third world country.
John,
"Do you really believe that Iraqis would be better off under the rule of people foreighn jihadists and leftover bathists? "
I believe Iraqis would be better off under the baathists than under the theocrats a la Iran which they're headed for now, thanks to our 'help'. In fact, they WERE better off under Saddam than the Iranians were under Khomeni.
Oh, wait, We were always at war with Eastasia. Never mind.
I hope you are right Joe. If you are, in just over two years, Bush has managed to create the first functioning democracy outside of Turkey in the Arab world out of a traumatized, tribal society misruled by an unbelievably brutal tryant for nearly 40 years. That is some serious moral vindication for the invasion. For the cost of just under 2000 American lives, much less than that associated with liberating Europe in WWII, and a small percentage of our GNP, we have managed to liberate millions of Iraqis from Saddam and give them a democratic government. I never realized you were such a closet Neocon.
Michael Young sics his grammar dogs on Juan Cole: "Bush administration foot-dragging and ineptitude in handling the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans has profoundly demoralized his [sic] supporters on the right ..."
Another "sic" is needed, because "foot-dragging and ineptitude" have "profoundly demoralized" -- not "has."
Juan Cole is a lousy writer, and Salon has lousy copy editors.
You say the insurgents would "win", but what does that mean?
Well, Lowdog, maybe he's afraid that Iraq would end up with a Constitution based in Sharia law, and a government with close ties to Iran! And maybe women would be forced to wear the veil, and Islamic fanatics would roam the streets enforcing their morality on anyone whom they saw! And suicide bombers would make it very dangerous for any Iraqi to go outside!
Which is, of course, one-hundred-percent different from what's happening there now.
Lowdog,
I am not so sure I don't agree with newly minted Neocon Joe on this one. I think that the Iraqis would pull themselves up and defeat the insurgency. Obviously, I don't know anymore than anyone else, but I suspect the Iraqis would do a better job than many think. They don't do it now because they don't have to, we are doing it for them. I am not so sure that they wouldn't get the job done if they had to.
M1EK,
Why don't you just come out and admit that you think Arabs are too stupid to have a democracy and the only thing that keeps them from having a theocracy is a western backed strong man to keep them in line. That is basiclally what you are argueing. The Shias in the South need to be murdered and oppressed because if they didn't have the man to keep them down, they might vote for a government they want and that would, because apparently they are something less than human, automatically be something bad.
Hitchens has usually been on the right side of the debate on Iraq because when he writes about it he thinks of Iraqis, not the Bush administration.
This has been lambasted already, but I'll throw some more fuel on the fire for good measure. First off, considering that it's OUR stolen wealth and OUR countrymen that are being used to run the show in Iraq, it seems only logical that the first place to shed some light is at the source, and not the recipient.
Secondly, Young's statement implies that there are only two groups to think about: the Bush Clan, or the poor suffering Iraqis. In other words, he implies that you can either look at it as a touchy-feely moment of international do-gooderism (like he and Hitchens supposedly do) or as a means of political/partisan attack (as everyone else supposedly does). This is assenine. By pointing out that the war in Iraq is partially to blame for the lack of government response to a homeland tragedy, is NOT necessarily "thinking about the Bush Administration", it's thinking about the people in Biloxi and NO. Now, you may ask, is it wrong to think of the people in NO before we think about the people in Basra, but, then we cannot help but get into a discussion about the role of the government. Fine, let's do that. First, is it government's role to keep civil order and coordinate interior disaster relief operations? I would argue: yes; I would probably get plenty of libertarians in agreement. Second, is it government's role to overthrow governments of other nations and attempt to install an entirely new and democratic political structure there? Ahhh, I don't think so.
Hitchens implies that saving people in Basra and saving people in Biloxi are on equal footing, constitutionally speaking. They are not.
Hitchens also implies that the only possible reaction to "the war has negatively affected relief efforts" is "pull out all troops now". Just because you criticize the administration for their deeds, doesn't mean that you necessarily support an instant, absolute pullout. One does not follow the other. Yes, this is an argument why the war is a bad idea, but the solutions vary; Hitchens' criticism ONLY addresses those people who say "see what happened? We should pull all of them out right now". And, so far, I personally haven't heard that at all. Could Hitchens be straw-manning here? Methinks so.
Oh, shit! says John, I've got absolutely nothing to refute that! Here, let me pull this out of my ass:
" hope you are right Joe. If you are, in just over two years, Bush has managed to create the first functioning democracy outside of Turkey in the Arab world..."
Riiiiight. Because, of course, only a functioning democracy could be capable of putting down an insurgency in Iraq.
For the dinette set, the trip to Mexico, the luggage, and the car, John: When the United States leaves Iraq, and the insurgency becomes much smaller (as the Iraqi security services become larger and more capable), where do you think all of those nationalist, anti-American Iraqi fighters with military backgrounds, combat experience, political contacts, and bad attitudes will end up?
I'm sorry, the answer was "Holding positions within the First Functioning Democracy In Blah Blah Blah..."
RC Dean writes:
Except the governor of Louisiana did exactly that. Damn those facts!
I'm not sure that those are the facts. What we have heard have been leaks from anonymous administration sources justifying the federal government's conduct by attributing bizarre and irrational conduct to the governor and mayor. Maybe that's really what happened, but I'm skeptical.
Hitchens has usually been on the right side of the debate on Iraq because when he writes about it he thinks of Iraqis, not the Bush administration.
This has been lambasted already, but I'll throw some more fuel on the fire for good measure.
First off, considering that it's OUR stolen wealth and OUR countrymen that are being used to run what Hitchens views as a "humanitarian effort" in Iraq, it seems only logical that the first place to shed some light is at the source, and not the recipient.
Secondly, Young's statement implies that there are only two ways to think about it: the Bush Clan, or the poor suffering Iraqis. In other words, he implies that you can either look at it as a touchy-feely moment of international do-gooderism (like he and Hitchens supposedly do) or as a means of political/partisan attack (as everyone else supposedly does). This is assinine. By pointing out that the war in Iraq is partially to blame for the lack of government response to a homeland tragedy, is NOT necessarily "thinking about the Bush Administration", it's thinking about the people in Biloxi and NO, and it's thinking about the role of government.
Now, you may ask, is it wrong to think of the people in NO before we think about the people in Basra, but, then we cannot help but get into a discussion about the role of the government. Fine, let's do this thing. First, is it government's role to maintain civil orderin times of chaos, and coordinate massive, multistate interior disaster relief operations? I would argue: yes; I would probably get plenty of libertarians in agreement. Second, is it government's role to overthrow governments of other nations and attempt to install an entirely new and democratic political structure there? Ahhh, I don't think so.
Hitchens implies that saving people in Basra and saving people in Biloxi are on equal footing. They are not. Maybe in a vacuum, where tax dollars, soldiers' lives, and constitutions do not exist...but, alas, well, you know...
Hitchens also implies that the only possible reaction to "the war has negatively affected relief efforts" is "pull out all troops now". Just because you criticize the administration for their deeds, doesn't mean that you necessarily support an instant, absolute pullout. One does not follow the other. Yes, this is an argument why the war is a bad idea, but the solutions vary; Hitchens' criticism ONLY addresses those people who say "see what happened? We should pull all of them out right now". And, so far, I personally haven't heard that at all. Could Hitchens be straw-manning here? Methinks so.
Why don't you just come out and admit that you think Arabs are too stupid to have a democracy and the only thing that keeps them from having a theocracy is a western backed strong man to keep them in line. That is basiclally what you are argueing.
No, he's pointing out that a theocracy IS currently taking root in Iraq, and that the average Iraqi (especially the female ones) was, in fact, better off before we got there. But he's not using that as a springboard to assume that this must inevitably be the case with all Arab countries.
Jennifer,
Why don't you just come out and say it, the correct policy of the U.S. government should be to murder and oppress the Iraqi Shia, because if they are ever allowed any imput into their government, they will form a theocracy and allign themselves with Iran.
Why don't you just come out and say it, the correct policy of the U.S. government should be to murder and oppress the Iraqi Shia, because if they are ever allowed any imput into their government, they will form a theocracy and allign themselves with Iran.
John, seriously, you need to break yourself of the habit of making up words to put into the mouths of those who disagree with you.
Do you deny that right now Iraq is turning into a theocracy with close ties to Iran?
Why don't you just come out and say it, the correct policy of the U.S. government should be to murder and oppress the Iraqi Shia, because if they are ever allowed any imput into their government, they will form a theocracy and allign themselves with Iran.
John, seriously, you need to break yourself of the habit of making up words to put into the mouths of those who disagree with you.
Do you deny that right now Iraq is turning into a theocracy with close ties to Iran?
Sorry bout the multiposting, all. H&R, your servers blow ass.
The first thing you take from my pithy comment is that those of you with bloody hands from the disaster unfolding in Iraq can take your professions that you care so much more for those poor people than us doves, and shove thm up your ass.
But we do! And leave my hands out of this! You'd abandon the Iraqis and Kurds to the wolves. Anyway, Mr. Young nails it in my opinion.
The only place where I disagree is that Juan Cole is also preoccupied with Israel and the plight of the Palestinians along with Washington. It's always a reference point for him.
In regards to Hitchens's comments about people's zero-sum arguments, he does say:
"The United States has a trillion-dollar economy and a massive and sophisticated military, which is quite capable in competent hands of combating rogue-state dictators and jihadist maniacs, while simultaneously ensuring the safety of all its citizens, at least against the more predictable acts of God or the more predictable attacks of the extremely godly. And there are billions left over after these expenditures, which we choose to waste (in my opinion) on the huge diversion of manpower and resources to the "Drug War" and to "Missile Defense." Let us by all means have a national debate on where the fat is and where the vulnerabilities are and decrease the gap between them."
It's a matter of priorities. Cole's attack piece was weak in my opinion.
"But the Kurds had already made their gains, under the U.S. no-fly zone. Since the war, their situation has arguably worsened."
Yeah, they get to kill Saddam Hussein 20 times over. Much worse.
etc., etc.
Why don't you just come out and say it, the correct policy of the U.S. government should be to murder and oppress the Iraqi Shia, because if they are ever allowed any imput into their government, they will form a theocracy and allign themselves with Iran.
John, seriously, you need to break yourself of the habit of making up words to put into the mouths of those who disagree with you.
Do you deny that right now Iraq is turning into a theocracy with close ties to Iran?
"If the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA can't organize a withdrawal from New Orleans within a day or so, then I fail to see the point in there existence. Give me back my civil liberties if you can't even respond to a natural disaster in a timely fashion."
True, 9-11 and Katrina tend to unmake any Hobbesian or similar cases for government. They are always using fear to get us on board and yet can't seem to actually protect us from any true calamity.
The government claims to protect us against attack from outside enemies and can't. They claim (in a more liberal vision) to protect us from internal catastrophe and can't. Although to be fair, in the case of Katrina, I do think the argument that the Bush administration (and the local governments) were particularly incompetent to be a strong one.
Yes, Jennifer, and while you're at it, can you explain why you stomp on kittens?
John's flailing. He's gotten himself into the position where he has to defend whatever government the most powerful political actors in Shiite Iraq put together as both a positive outcome for the United States, and a merciful benediction on the people of Iraq. Even if the government is a Shiite Taliban, even in the face of Jennifer's "veils and sharia and mullahs, oh my!" scenario (also knows as the status quo), he still has prop them up.
Amusingly, just a few months ago, when people made predictions that Iraq's government would be similar to what John is now defending, he called THEM ractists, for stating that such a vile, inhumane thing would come out of American-led Arab politics. Now that it has, he's reduced to playing the race card on people who gainsay this wonderful creation.
Well then, John, are you saying that you think we should pull out so the goddamn Iraqis can fight their own war?
Again, I'm still sorta on the fence on this one, but I think I'm inclined to agree.
Would part of the country come under Sharia law? I'm sure it would, but there would be parts that wouldn't. In other words, I think the country would fragment. And is that really a bad thing?
Jennifer,
The average Iraqi was not better off under Saddam. I would point you to the Iraqi truth project. http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Whatever Iraq becomes, it can't be half as strict as Saudi Arabia, is it your position that it was better for a woman to live under Saddam than in the Kingdom? I don't think there are many Saudi woman who would agree with you. Its amazing how you come on here day after day and spit on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of people murdered under his rule. You do everything you can to diminish and discount what happened there and by extension the victims, all to score cheap political points.
Here's something to put into the "Things utterly lacking in historical precedent" file: THE GODDAM SERVER IS ON THE FRITZ.
Jennifer,
The average Iraqi was not better off under Saddam. I would point you to the Iraqi truth project. http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Whatever Iraq becomes, it can't be half as strict as Saudi Arabia, is it your position that it was better for a woman to live under Saddam than in the Kingdom? I don't think there are many Saudi woman who would agree with you. Its amazing how you come on here day after day and spit on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of people murdered under his rule. You do everything you can to diminish and discount what happened there and by extension the victims, all to score cheap political points.
I would also point you to this UK report on Saddam's human rights record.
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2002/cdec/irdp.pdf
Here's something to put into the "Things utterly lacking in historical precedent" file: THE GODDAM SERVER IS ON THE FRITZ.
Jennifer,
The average Iraqi was not better off under Saddam. I would point you to the Iraqi truth project. http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Whatever Iraq becomes, it can't be half as strict as Saudi Arabia, is it your position that it was better for a woman to live under Saddam than in the Kingdom? I don't think there are many Saudi woman who would agree with you. Its amazing how you come on here day after day and spit on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of people murdered under his rule. You do everything you can to diminish and discount what happened there and by extension the victims, all to score cheap political points.
I would also point you to this UK report on Saddam's human rights record.
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2002/cdec/irdp.pdf
I'm aghast that someone as apparently high-functioning as RC Dean believes that the same President who argues that neither Congress nor the Supreme Court have the Constitutional right or power to place constraints on his activities as commander-in-chief believes that the man would suddenly stop and say, "I can't do this -- THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T SIGN THIS FORM!!"
Wait -- no I'm not.
Everyone else is doing an admirable job at explaining to Hitchens and Young that our government does in fact have Constitutional constraints and that Iraqis don't pay taxes here but Biloxians do.
Peter K,
You have no idea what I would do in regards to the Iraqi Shia and Kurds. You've never bothered to ask me.
As much as you empire types like to go around creating reality, you don't get to invent an opposition that fervently believes in the positions you can most easily, and with the greattest relish, refute.
"The only place where I disagree is that Juan Cole is also preoccupied with Israel and the plight of the Palestinians along with Washington. It's always a reference point for him." That bastard! What an inconvenient set of people to be concerned about.
"Yeah, they get to kill Saddam Hussein 20 times over. Much worse." Peter, how many suicide bombs went off in Irbil between 1999 and 2002?
Joe--
I'll tell you why I stomp on kittens as soon as YOU tell ME when you stopped beating your wife. :^)
I'd still like to know whether John believes that Iraq is indeed turning into a theocracy with ties to Iran.
Joe--
I'll tell you why I stomp on kittens as soon as YOU tell ME when you stopped beating your wife. :^)
I'd still like to know whether John believes that Iraq is indeed turning into a theocracy with ties to Iran.
"Hitchens' criticism ONLY addresses those people who say "see what happened? We should pull all of them out right now". And, so far, I personally haven't heard that at all. Could Hitchens be straw-manning here? Methinks so."
Of course, he's straw-manning. Those who support withdrawal did so before Katrina, and because they believed it was the right policy. Of course, he's also straw-manning when he pretends this is even remotely likely to happen. Yea, and then what would become of all our permanent bases? Uh huh.
I am not flailing at all Joe. Both you and Jennifer prefer the reighn of a murdurous tyrant because you believe that at Shia led government will automatically be a theocracy allied with Iran. First, neither one of you know anything about Iraqi Shias. Iraqis are not Iranians. They fought an 8 year war with Iran and have no desire to come under the Mullahs thumb. Second, you have provided no evidence that a theocracy is about to break out in Iraq. Every constitution in the middle-east says that the government or laws are based on the Koran, is it a surprise that the new Iraqi constitution says the same? Whatever Iraq becomes, it will become that way because an elected government made it so. Both you and Jennifer seem to veiw the Shias as some kind of less than human theocratic fanatics. If they are anything but that, why is granting them democractic control over their government so bad? Both of you argue that "average Iraqi", meaning Shia Suni and Kurd is better off being murdered and oppressed by Saddam than living in a democracy because that democracy might be, gasp, religious. Both of you seem to beleive that the people of Iraq will axiomatically elect a government that is worse than one of the worst tyrants of the 20th Century. If that doesn't make you racists in the David Duke mold, I am not sure what would.
I would point both of you to the Iraqi Truth project and this UK report on Saddam's human rights record.
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2002/cdec/irdp.pdf
John--
Your attempt to change the subject by discussing Saudi Arabia still hasn't answered my question: is Iraq turning into a theocracy with ties to Iran?
But we do! And leave my hands out of this! You'd abandon the Iraqis and Kurds to the wolves.
You self-righteous bum. Did you ever stop to think, maybe the "wolves" are after them on our account? Did you ever stop to think that they might be able to ward off the wolves on their own? Did you ever stop to think that it's not the job of the federal government to steal my money and use to save some foreign peoples from "the wolves"? Nah, to you, it's all black and white. You either support the war, or you support leaving the iraqis to the wolves. Yep.
"The United States has a trillion-dollar economy and a massive and sophisticated military, which is quite capable in competent hands of combating rogue-state dictators and jihadist maniacs, while simultaneously ensuring the safety of all its citizens, at least against the more predictable acts of God or the more predictable attacks of the extremely godly." (Hitchens)
I agree with Hitchens that much is wasted in other parts of the goverment budget; however, that is simply an obfuscatory tactic. "Duh, well, there's alot of other waste too..." That's entirely besides the point. It speaks nothing to whether saving folks in Basra is the job of our government. Furthermore, I get confused: was our mission in Iraq supposed to fight "rogue-state dictators", or was it to save the folks in Basra from the wolves? There's a vast difference between fighting off threats to our security, and launching humanitarian missions. Hitchens uses them interchangeably, and references them selectively, according to which one serves his current point better. Dis. In. Gen. U. Ous.
I am not flailing at all Joe. Both you and Jennifer prefer the reign of a murderous tyrant because you believe that at Shia led government will automatically be a theocracy allied with Iran. First, neither one of you know anything about Iraqi Shias. Iraqis are not Iranians. They fought an 8 year war with Iran and have no desire to come under the Mullahs thumb. Second, you have provided no evidence that a theocracy is about to break out in Iraq. Every constitution in the middle-east says that the government or laws are based on the Koran, is it a surprise that the new Iraqi constitution says the same? Whatever Iraq becomes, it will become that way because an elected government made it so. Both you and Jennifer seem to view the Shias as some kind of less than human theocratic fanatics. If they are anything but that, why is granting them democratic control over their government so bad? Both of you argue that "average Iraqi", meaning Shia Sunni and Kurd is better off being murdered and oppressed by Saddam than living in a democracy because that democracy might be, gasp, religious. Both of you seem to believe that the people of Iraq will axiomatically elect a government that is worse than one of the worst tyrants of the 20th Century. If that doesn't make you racists in the David Duke mold, I am not sure what would.
I would point both of you to the Iraqi Truth project and this UK report on Saddam's human rights record.
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2002/cdec/irdp.pdf
first functioning democracy
it's laughable, mr john, that you're so well propagandized as to actually *believe* that this is what is happening in iraq. it entirely discredits everything you have to say on the subject, because you clearly haven't grasped even first facts.
you have, however, apparently listened very well to the continuing stream of horseshit emanating from our leadership.
a television election does not make a functioning democracy, mr john, no matter how you may want one to exist to save you from having been played an utter fool by dubya et al. these unfortunate people don't have a democratic constitution, probably aren't going to get one, and are living an unending political and security nightmare.
So now John's Iraq goalposts have moved from "functioning democracy" to "not as bad as Saudi Arabia"?
Meyer,
It is not even close to Saudi Arabia, nor will it be. I was simply pointing out to Jennifer the obvious fact that if life under Saddam was so wonderful, why wouldn't people have wanted to move to Iraq from Saudi. The answer is of course that no one in their right mind would have gone from Saudi to live under Saddam.
John, save the Iraq Truth links. Nobody here is arguing that Saddam was a good guy, or that bad things never happened under his rule. We're just saying that things haven't turned out so well now that he's gone, either.
And as a female, I would rather take my chances in Saddam's Iraq than Saudi Arabia. At least under Saddam I wouldn't be under automatic, gender-based, lifetime house arrest. Looks like modern Iraqi women are headed that way, though.
John, save the Iraq Truth links. Nobody here is arguing that Saddam was a good guy, or that bad things never happened under his rule. We're just saying that things haven't turned out so well now that he's gone, either.
And as a female, I would rather take my chances in Saddam's Iraq than Saudi Arabia. At least under Saddam I wouldn't be under automatic, gender-based, lifetime house arrest. Looks like modern Iraqi women are headed that way, though.
John, save the Iraq Truth links. Nobody here is arguing that Saddam was a good guy, or that bad things never happened under his rule. We're just saying that things haven't turned out so well now that he's gone, either.
And as a female, I would rather take my chances in Saddam's Iraq than Saudi Arabia. At least under Saddam I wouldn't be under automatic, gender-based, lifetime house arrest. Looks like modern Iraqi women are headed that way, though.
John, save the Iraq Truth links. Nobody here is arguing that Saddam was a good guy, or that bad things never happened under his rule. We're just saying that things haven't turned out so well now that he's gone, either.
And as a female, I would rather take my chances in Saddam's Iraq than Saudi Arabia. At least under Saddam I wouldn't be under automatic, gender-based, lifetime house arrest. Looks like modern Iraqi women are headed that way, though.
I don't even know what position John has anymore.
So it was all us moving in there that helped the Iraqis? Let's say it was. My question is: ok, now that we've gotten rid of Saddam, why do we need to stay? We need to build democracy? How in the fuck do you do that. Let them draft their constitution and fight it out. If Iraq splits into 3 or 4 countries, good for them.
Oh, but wait, we need that oil, so them fighting it out would be bad.
I just hate seeing all that money and the lives of patriotic, duty-bound US citizens going to waste.
of course, it has nothing to do at all with whether or not life under saddam was good or bad -- clearly, life is politically awful for literally billions of humans. would you then conquer the 70% of the landmass of the planet that lives under something other than decadent individualism to "free" them?
the only question that concerns anyone, mr john, is whether or not installing de facto american military dictatorships around the planet is an improvement for either them or (more importantly) us. this is a question you will never bring yourself to answer, i'm sure, or even ask yourself, as you've so thoroughly deluded yourself as to the nature of our game.
Jennifer,
Saying that you would want to take your chances in Saddam's Iraq defies logical argument. Read the UK report, read the things that happened there. "Gee, the place is run by a lunatic and his sadistic sons and my son is in prison and my husband was just fed into a meat grinder, but at least I don't have to cover my head in public."
Jennifer,
Saying that you would want to take your chances in Saddam's Iraq defies logical argument. Read the UK report, read the things that happened there. "Gee, the place is run by a lunatic and his sadistic sons and my son is in prison and my husband was just fed into a meat grinder, but at least I don't have to cover my head in public."
Of course you want to save the Iraqi Truth links. To look at them and admit the full scale of the terror there means that you might have to admit to yourself that someone out there could be worse than the United States. I horrifying and earth shattering thought for you and Joe both I am sure. Better to just minimize the whole thing by saying "sure Saddam was bad, but"
Here we go. Truly amazing, how fast we can go from misallocated resources for NO, to the pro-war cookoos trying to convince us all how bad Saddam was. Of course he was bad, that's not the issue. It really doesn't matter, because it's not the US federal government's job to save these people from their leader. No matter how bad he was, unless he was an imminent threat to us, it has no bearing on the validity of our role.
alkali wrote:
"As a purely theoretical matter, before we get to the merits, libertarians and non-libs alike should be suspicious of a defense that runs: "The federal government is not to blame because it lacked sufficient power."
As a matter of practice, I am having trouble believing that this conversation took place:
State/local official: "Please help us; we're in desperate need."
Federal official: "I can help you, but only if you send me a piece of paper saying such-and-such."
State/local official: "We refuse to send you that piece of paper."
Maybe there is more to it than that, but the "state/local official refused to sign form" narrative is just not credible."
I think the state officials asked for help ahead of time, just not the kind of help they were screaming for after Katrina hit.
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf
That document appears to be a request for funds and assistance cleaning up debris. I don't see a request for assistance in evacuation, search and rescue.
but at least I don't have to cover my head in public.
No, more like "At least I can GO OUT in public." And are you seriously arguing that human rights abuses don't happen in Saudi Arabia, too?
Actually, you probably do.
Hold it Gaius,
I thought the government in Iraq was going to be an Iranian dominated theocracy and that we should have left the dictator in power to prevent that? First Iraq is a theocracy then an American installed dictatorship. Who exactly is deluding themselves? I can't keep the anti-war lunatic conspiracy theories on here straight anymore. Could someone plase publish some kind of a program?
Hold it Gaius,
I thought the government in Iraq was going to be an Iranian dominated theocracy and that we should have left the dictator in power to prevent that? First Iraq is a theocracy then and American install dictatorship. Who exactly is deluding themselves? I can't keep the anti-war lunatic conspiracy theories on here straight anymore. Could someone plase publish some kind of a program?
Hold it Gaius,
I thought the government in Iraq was going to be an Iranian dominated theocracy and that we should have left the dictator in power to prevent that? First Iraq is a theocracy then and American installed dictatorship. Who exactly is deluding themselves? I can't keep the anti-war lunatic conspiracy theories on here straight anymore. Could someone plase publish some kind of a program?
Hold it Gaius,
I thought the government in Iraq was going to be an Iranian dominated theocracy and that we should have left the dictator in power to prevent that? First Iraq is a theocracy then and American install dictatorship. Who exactly is deluding themselves? I can't keep the anti-war lunatic conspiracy theories on here straight anymore. Could someone plase publish some kind of a program?
Saying that you would want to take your chances in Saddam's Iraq defies logical argument.
Yes, and your shifting posts here demonstrate your devout worship of the gods of logic, no?
but at least I don't have to cover my head in public.
No, more like "At least I can GO OUT in public." And are you seriously arguing that human rights abuses don't happen in Saudi Arabia, too?
Actually, you probably do.
"The only place where I disagree is that Juan Cole is also preoccupied with Israel and the plight of the Palestinians along with Washington. It's always a reference point for him." That bastard! What an inconvenient set of people to be concerned about.
Why do you think I used the word "plight," silly?
Hitchens's best point, I repeat:
"If liberalism and humanitarianism do not mean internationalism, they mean precisely nothing. Shame on those who try to turn the needy and the victims against each other."
Shame on you Joe and Evan.
You'd think Joe would be happy about Hitchens's harsh criticism's of Bush.
I always consider Iraq a political risk, as some of the smarter conservatives noticed, not as a Wag the Dog, Imperialist crusade for Israel or whatever. Most Americans are islolationist and want to be left alone and live a quiet life.
Considering the strength of those trying to wreck Iraq, and add Bush's criminal mishandling of Katrina, and the Republicans could have some problems in the next election. But I wouldn't bet on it, given the opposition.
You have no idea what I would do in regards to the Iraqi Shia and Kurds. You've never bothered to ask me.
You want the troops out now, which would lead to civil war, draw in Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran and make Lebanon's civil war look like a tea party.
No Jennifer it doesn't defy logic so much as insult the victims of it. I am sure Pol Pot's Cambodia or Stalin's Russia had their good points too, yet those who defend them are generally considered fruitcakes.
"The answer is of course that no one in their right mind would have gone from Saudi to live under Saddam."
A number of women would have, had they been able to. They'd have been killed for trying, of course, but not on the Iraqi side of the border.
"M1EK,
Why don't you just come out and admit that you think Arabs are too stupid to have a democracy and the only thing that keeps them from having a theocracy is a western backed strong man to keep them in line. That is basiclally what you are argueing."
John,
Why don't you just come out and admit that you enjoy sodomizing underage farm animals? That is basically what you are argueing [sic].
John:
It is not even close to Saudi Arabia, nor will it be. I was simply pointing out to Jennifer the obvious fact that if life under Saddam was so wonderful, why wouldn't people have wanted to move to Iraq from Saudi. The answer is of course that no one in their right mind would have gone from Saudi to live under Saddam.
How many Saudis are moving to live in the thriving democracy of Iraq?
No, John, you're not flailing at all.
That's why your very next sentence was the assertion that I prefer the rule of murderous tyrants. That's the sort of rhetoric that's common to people who are confident that their worldview isn't crumbling around them.
Jennifer, have you hugged your murderous tyrant today?
Joe,
Its not my worldview that is crumbling. It is you, Jennifer, and M1EK who refuse to admit the logical consiquences of your argurments.
Hitchens isn't a conservative convert; he's one of the last true liberals. Remember them? The guys that used to give a shit about the oppressed and actually take up arms to defend them against tyranny? I respect his position because it has been consistent. I wish, like him, that the administration had taken the time to sell the much tougher rational for invasion. That since we made Saddam it was our duty to get rid of him. But, instead they went for the imminent threat, WMD boogyman angle. However, just because they used the wrong pitch doesn't mean that the whole affair is a waste of time. Trying to establish a democracy and give people a shot at living something resembling a free existence is still a noble goal. That being said, just because you support that goal doesn?t mean you support the way the administration is going about achieving it. This is another point Hitchens has been consistent on. He may support the vision, but he has been far from un-critical of the execution.
I have questions for everyone who keeps saying that Iraqis were better off under Saddam. Since this is a libertarian leaning site I would assume that most here are opposed to oppressive, tyrannical governments. Are you saying that an oppressive, tyrannical government is OK as long as you?re not affected by it? Are you saying that certain places need that type of government because the people there are just too unruly or stupid to participate in a democracy? Should we have just set back and let Saddam keep running the place like a cross between Tony Soprano and Joseph Stalin while crossing our fingers that he was being completely forthcoming with the weapons inspectors? I agree that a theocracy would not be a good outcome in Iraq, but do you really think the only other option is a police state?
Since Iraq may or may not become a theocracy, (a huge assumption, but I have given up argueing facts with you people) we therefore should have left one of the worst tyrants of the 20th Century in power. That seems to be the gist of your arguments. Since Iraqi people have elected both the Constitution writting committee and will again vote on the Constitution, the Iraqi government, whatever it is, will have the democratic approval of a majority of Iraqis. Joe, Jennifer and M1EK are convinced that the new government will be a Shia, Iranian dominated theocracy, therefore, you must beleive that this is what the majority of Iraqis would want their government to be. In other words, the Iraqis can't be trusted to vote on their own government and they are better off with a tyrant than they are controling their own government. It is a simple, yet twisted argument, but one which you all apparently believe.
ralphus - It's not all or nothing. I didn't like Saddam, but didn't feel threatened by him. So it was not worth it, in my estimation, to go in there and "do something". Is it unfortunate he was fucking his own people? Yes. Is it my fucking responsibility to go help out every oppressed country with billions of dollars and the lives of my fellow citizens? No.
I think we should have continued to be a trade partner...look what a little free trade did for China. I used to hate that China would be our 'most favoured nation' in trade status because of their human rights abuses. That's before I realised how ass-backwards that is. The only way for countries to liberalise is to get wealthy. Cutting a country off from trade is a good way to not get them wealthy. It also ensures that the assholes running it can keep their populace under countrol more easily.
So, for me, I don't think Saddam was "better" than what they have now (although what's going on over there now is still horrible), but I don't think we've been very successful in trying to "build" democracy (see inside the parenthesis prior to these). Again, I don't understand how in the hell you can supposedly build democracy. Ok, John, they voted on a Constitution - woo-hoo! But what that really means alludes me. Without us being there, that piece of paper wouldn't mean squat. So we're back at square one, which isn't a good place to be.
Lowdog,
It is a tough place to be, but I think we would have eventually been in a lot tougher place had Saddam stayed in power than we are now. Voting on the Constitution means a lot. Eventually, the Iraqis will have to defeat the insurgency, we can't do it for them. Having an elected government is a first step towards doing that. More importantly, its an essential step, Iraq has to have a government and we can not replace one dictatorship with another, despite Joe and Jennifer's preference for them.
Well, that is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how leaving Saddam alone, which would have made no insurgency, and going and making sure we kicked some serious ass in Afghanistan wouldn't have been a better plan. I'm sorry, but attacking Iraq does not make me feel safer (not that I've been afraid of terrorists in any case). I hope that this nation building exercise works out for us and the Iraqis, but I'm not convinced.
But I'm just against it on principle. We set a bad precedent by invading a country that had not attacked us.
Besides, I'm a loony, isolationist, gun-toting, dope-smoking, libertarian/libertine who only cares about me. 🙂
"we therefore should have left one of the worst tyrants of the 20th Century"
Your standards are very very low.
John, when you say that I consider Iraqi Shia to be some sort of subhumans, do you mean like wolves?
And do you realize that, on the same thread, you have stated that Iraq will collapse into civil war and terror absent a large American troop presence to prop the government up, AND accused everyone who disagrees with you of not believing that Iraqis can establish a stable, liberal system of government on their own?
FYI, I believe very strongly that Arab democracy is possible. I just happened topredict, rightly as it turns our, that you people would make a hash out of it if you tried to do it your way.
Peter K,
"You want the troops out now." No, actually, I don't.
Is there something you'd like to ask me?
Lowdog,
You make a good point about engaging with governments we don?t like to try to change them over time. I just don?t think that was an option with Saddam. China needs to engage with us. Saddam didn?t. He did however have plenty of engagement with German, France and Russia. I didn?t see any reforms coming from those relationships.
I'm not trying to be smart ass joe, but how would you go about fostering Arab democracy? What would be your way?
"Joe,
Its not my worldview that is crumbling."
Really. So this is all going according to plan, then? Mmm-hmm.
Flail, flail away. It would be funny, except for all the dead bodies.
If you don't have the mental firepower to come up with any possible courses of action other than "Invade as we did in 2003" and "Leave Saddam in Power," that's your problem. Don't project your lack of intelligence and imagination onto us.
ralphus,
Look to India, Ukraine, Poland, and Lebanon.
We sqeeze the government, box in its military, provide the opposition with bases of operation, economic and moral support, and places of refuge; and help them co-opt elements of the security apparatus.
Holy crap, I'm actually talking about Iraqis liberating themselves! This strategy takes a lot longer, but it has the virtue of actually standing a chance of working. Unlike "they'll throw flowers, hoist Ahmed Chalabi, and it'll be Switzerland by next summer."
Lowdog,
We do disagree and perhaps you are right, but at least you are sentient enough to realize that the world is better off without Saddam, which means that we can have a rational discussion about the matter, unlike the other flaming bananas on this thread.
Joe,
I don't recall ever saying that Iraq would fall into chaos if we left. As a matter of fact, I agreed with you that it wouldn't and that perhaps its time to let the Iraqis start doing things on their own, which by the way is what we are doing all over Southern Iraq right now. You might want to actually read my posts rather than rant once in a while.
Joe,
Iraqis liberating themselves, just like Russians liberated themselves from Stalin, Chinese liberated themselves from Mao, Cambodians liberated themselves from Pol Pot, Germans liberated themselves from Hitler. Yeah the liberation fairy seems to visit a lot. Forgive me for not having the intellectual creativity to believe in him.
joe,
Good answer. Consider my worldview shattered.
Actually, I completely agree that India, Ukraine, Poland etc. model would have been the better way to go. But here we are. Unfortunately, I lost the keys to the Wayback Machine so we can't start over from scratch. What should we do now? I still think we can make this work, but my contingency plan is to back the Kurds, let the country split. We can buy oil from Kurdistan and still have a military presence in the region.
Check this site for info on who crossed T's and dotted I's in asking the feds for relief (looks like the locals did):
http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/
As for the "military can't come in until the locals ask," actually, the military (not the guard) can act in all kinds of ways when directly ordered to do so by the president-- they just cannot freelance under the 19th century doctrine of posse comitatus. See the accounts of the Bataan, following the storm, ready to act off New Orleans, but not ordered to do so until days after the storm hit.
Bottom line, whatever the locals did or did not do, this is the system that Bush Co. has in place 4 years post 9-11, for who knows how many billions of dollars. He is the "I will keep you safe" president. He is a total failure, in startlingly similar ways to his 9-11 failures, except he had more warning and more time to (not) prepare this time. We are seeing Bush's crony capitalism and crony government at its worst, and people are dying because of it.
And on Iraq, can we please STOP with the "in Europe we liberated X number of people and in Iraq we did Y, for a fraction of the cost!" WWII was a global battle for national survival against the greatest evil the world has ever known. We were fighting for our asses, not to "liberate" people per se. Iraq was a dictatorship before we invaded and a chaotic, soon-to-be theocratic shithole now. I supported the ouster of Hussein, but to the extent I trusted in Bush's competence to do so, I was naive, and won't be burned again by this worst of presidents.
The problem with the change from the inside plan is that it too lacked the support of the world. Europe was just fine with the status quo in Iraq. The other group that didn't seem to have too much of a problem with the status quo was the progressive left. This is one of Hitchens' great points. What happened to the staunch defenders of freedom that used to make up the left? Why was there no support for Iraqi resistance movements? Plenty were clamoring to be human shields, but how many were willing to help the Iraqis take up arms against their oppressors? What happen to the lefty badasses of the Spanish Civil War variety?
I have trouble getting through John "You're a Racist Who Doesn't Believe in Arab Democracy" 's comments, so I missed this:
"Second, you have provided no evidence that a theocracy is about to break out in Iraq. Every constitution in the middle-east says that the government or laws are based on the Koran, is it a surprise that the new Iraqi constitution says the same?"
Talk about moving the goalposts - democracy is now, somehow, equivalent to "every constitution in the Middle East."
And I know Arab Iraqi shia aren't Persians, asshat.
Jeff,
"I supported the ouster of Hussein, but to the extent I trusted in Bush's competence to do so, I was naive, and won't be burned again by this worst of presidents."
You've pretty much summed it up for me as well. I feel burned by Bush. (Wouldn't be the first time. Thank god for free clinics) I think the goal is noble and worthwhile but the planning and execution is a train wreck. However, here we are so what do we do now?
Katrina just hammered home to me what a fucking fuck up Bush is. I hope that it opens the door for a guy like Gulliani to show people what a real Republican looks and acts like. Republicans are supposed to be the squares that have their shit together.
Hell, at this point I?d take a real Democrat. Anyone that knows what the fuck they are doing even if I think they are doing the wrong thing.
I just want serious, competent people in charge. Is that too much to ask for?
Your standards are very very low.
I have to agree, M1EK. Hussein ranks right below the big 5 of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and FDR.
ralphus,
Now? When you're in a hole, stop digging. Let the people of Iraq live in a country that isn't a warzone for foreign powers for a change. Let them reach their own equilibrium, then apply my radical, weird version of democratization - the kind that involves empowering people to determine their own future.
And there was support for the Iraqi resistance, extending all the way to the Clinton administration. Your question about the absence of a muscular leftism is a good one, though. The world has missed such a thing. I believe 9/11 and Afghanistan had done a lot to bring one back - sadly, that too seems to be a casualty of the Iraq diversion. Just as such liberals begin to feel confident and come into their own, they're stabbed in the back by a president who decides that ripping the country in half during the early stages of the War on Terror is good electoral politics.
As for Europe, while I don't completely buy your monolithic depiction of them as pro-status quo, I'll just note that peaceful agitation for democracy doesn't require international acquiescence to be legal the way aggressive war does.
Iraqis liberating themselves, just like Russians liberated themselves from Stalin, Chinese liberated themselves from Mao, Cambodians liberated themselves from Pol Pot, Germans liberated themselves from Hitler. Yeah the liberation fairy seems to visit a lot. Forgive me for not having the intellectual creativity to believe in him.
I actually skipped past this post before running off my list of dictators, and am now embarrassed 'cause it's going to look like I pinched it from this. joe actually had a good point, but this "liberation faiary" response give me pause.
"Hell, at this point I?d take a real Democrat. Anyone that knows what the fuck they are doing even if I think they are doing the wrong thing.
I just want serious, competent people in charge. Is that too much to ask for?"
I predicted last November that a lot of Americans would live to regret spurning John Kerry.
I just want serious, competent people in charge. Is that too much to ask for?"
I predicted last November that a lot of Americans would live to regret spurning John Kerry.
Competency would be wonderful. I missed the day where Kerry demonstrated he was more competent than Bush, though. Not saying things would be worse with Kerry, but I can't see any argument that they would have been better.
joe,
I said serious and competent. Not condescending and spineless.
I was ready to vote Dem for the first time in my life last November. If it had been anybody but horseface on the ticket I might have gone through with it. I ended up sitting this one out.
jf is right. No better no worse. Instead of an undermanaged war and disaster response we would have an over managed war and disaster response.
Hitchens isn't a conservative convert; he's one of the last true liberals. Remember them? The guys that used to give a shit about the oppressed and actually take up arms to defend them against tyranny?
Christopher Hitchens has never taken up arms to defend anything aside from perhaps a tasty fifth of vodka, and never will. My seven-year-old niece could probably kill him bare-handed with a sharp poke between the eyes.
Iraqis liberating themselves, just like Russians liberated themselves from Stalin, Chinese liberated themselves from Mao, Cambodians liberated themselves from Pol Pot, Germans liberated themselves from Hitler. Yeah the liberation fairy seems to visit a lot. Forgive me for not having the intellectual creativity to believe in him.
Doesn't this presuppose that all the people you mention there wanted to be liberated from that list of leaders? Since when were Germans eager to get rid of Hitler? Hell, since when were Russians eager to get rid of Stalin?
It's also worth pointing out that the colonists liberated themselves from King George, the French liberated themselves from Louis and Marie, the Russians liberated themselves from the Tsar, the Romanians liberated the shit out of themselves from Ceausescu, the Indians liberated themselves from the British . . . I guess John must just think that Iraqis are ignorant sand-niggers who aren't capable of a successful internally-realized liberation. Why don't you just admit it, John?
Isn't "theocracy aligned with Iraq" now sort of the best case scenario? Couldn't we still see some combination of failed state/civil war that actually would be worse than Hussein's rule, in the same way that getting the Communists out of Afghanistan actually made things worse rather than better when the country turned into a battleground for warlords? And if we do get the "theocracy aligned with Iraq," is that really so much better for the US than having Hussein in charge that it was worth the cost in lives, money, prestige, etc? And why does anyone believe Bush actually gives a crap about democracy in Iraq? Practically right up to the invasion, he was saying that if Hussein gave up his WMDs (remember those?) there would be no war. If the real concern was democracy, then why would he say something like that? Unless of course he was lying....
Phil,
On fire! Nice combo.
I predicted last November that a lot of Americans would live to regret spurning John Kerry.
So what's the line on that in Las Vegas these days?
sum of knowledge reaffirmed by this line of comments: mr john is the most egregious idiot who posts regularly here.
the world is better off without Saddam
why are you still making this argument, mr john? has ANYONE disagreed with you? a sure sign of idiocy is an inability to recognize answers to questions. in this enire line, the only possible interpretation of any comment that would agree with what you apparently suppose "we all" think is ms jennifer's honest assessment that iraq under saddam was at least officially secular and westernized, in sharp contrast to post-revolutionary iran.
are you so stupid to think that this truthful statement constitutes an apology for saddam? really? really? i find your intellectual bipolar disorder simultaneously fascinating and tiring.
I thought the government in Iraq was going to be an Iranian dominated theocracy and that we should have left the dictator in power to prevent that? First Iraq is a theocracy then and American install dictatorship.
it will be something indistinguishable to us from an iranian islamic republic, if american dictatorship tucks tail and runs (as it should).
so now that the armies of your god have upended the sunni dictatorship that they once fostered, those are the two choices of order you have -- along with a third of total disorder, which may not be a choice at all.
this was the lot of choices all along, as i'm sure you were completely unaware: sunni authoritarian aristocracy, shi'a theocracy, american military dictatorship and utter anarchy.
note that "instant utopian democracy, just add water" was never anything more than a neocon pipe dream, as i'm sure it was also yours.