New Orleans Links

Michael Barnett has been writing a compelling, disturbing, and deeply practical blog from the frontlines in New Orleans. Here's a sample from last night:

The situation for the [New Orleans Police Department] is critical. This is firsthand information I have from an NOPD officer we're giving shelter to. Their command and control infrastructure is shot. They have limited to no communication whatsoever. He didn't even know the city was under martial law until we told him! His precinct (5th Precinct) is under water! UNDER WATER -- every vehicle under water. They had to commander moving trucks like Ryder and UHaul to get around. The coroner's office is shut down so bodies are being covered in leaves at best or left where they lie at worst.

They don't even know their own rules of engagement. He says the force is impotent right now. They have no idea what's going on, no coordination, virtually no comms, etc. the National Guard is gonna air drop a radio system for them with 200 radios? They are getting very little direction.

Meanwhile, The New York Times offers a lesson in the value of gun ownership:

Paul Cosma, 47, who owns a nearby auto shop, stood outside it along with a reporter and photographer he was taking around the neighborhood. He had pistols on both hips.

Suddenly, he stepped forward toward a trio of young men and grabbed a pair of rusty bolt cutters out of the hands of one of them. The young man pulled back, glaring.

Mr. Cosma, never claiming any official status, eventually jerked the bolt cutters away, saying, "You don't need these."

The young man and his friends left, continuing the glare. A few minutes later, they returned and mouthed quiet oaths at Mr. Cosma, and his friend Art DePodesta, an Army veteran, who was carrying a shotgun and a pistol.

Mr. Cosma stared back, saying nothing. Between the two sides, a steady trickle of looters came and went, barely giving any of them a look.

In Slate, Ari Kelman explains why so much of New Orleans was built below sea level.

Craig's List is helping Katrina's victims find housing. So is MoveOn.org.

And here, one more time, is Glenn Reynolds' list of flood aid charities.

Comments

[Dynamist]

Kelman does a decent job. New Orleans wasn't built below sea level, it expanded onto lower ground in the early 1900s. The flooding from the river was the problem until that expansion happened. Now, flooding from the lake, which Kelman misses, is the bigger threat. The old neighborhoods are the 20% that is not flooded.

[Castillon]

I'd like folks not to forget about the areas of Mississippi and Alabama that were hit (and where most of my relatives live). Its really, really bad there.

[rob]

Gun ownership goes hand in hand with self-reliance, you can't truly have liberty without the ability to defend yourself and those you love. Every once in a while, this lesson resurfaces. Sadly, the impotent NOPD force was never particularly potent to begin with, and when it was it was frighteningly corrupt (for a US city). Of course, I'm not suggesting (before anyone jumps me for it) that 1,00s should die to reinforce an NRA talking point, merely pointing out that it was one of the many things gun rights advocates get right.

[Dynamist]

Castillon, I haven't forgotten. I'm NOLA focused, but if everyone remembers you're people, too, they'll better realize how huge the storm was. We gotta help everybody, not just where the news choppers fly.

[Hakluyt]

Castillon is me, BTW.

[Hakluyt]

Jefferson Davis' last residence is gone, BTW:

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050830/NEWS0110/50830019

[Hakluyt]

The Grand Hotel survived (built in the 1840s) though: http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/news/1125479930226390.xml&coll=3

[Jesse Walker]

New Orleans wasn't built below sea level

The bad phrasing was my fault, not Kelman's. I fixed it.

[Tom Crick]

"Between the two sides, a steady trickle of looters came and went, barely giving any of them a look."

Excellent argument for gun ownership!

...Reminds me of the way the business people of Koreatown organized themselves during the LA riots--another excellent argument for gun ownership.

[Hakluyt]

Reports out of N.O. state that the National D-Day museum was been "gutted and trashed" by looters. Too bad someone wasn't there to put a cap in those motherfuckers.

[joe]

That's just awful. The Higgins factory. Dammit.

[joe]

Citibank and some other credit card companies allow you to spend your "points" on a charitable donation.

So those of us with more debt than liquidity can help out, too.

[Dynamist]

Hakluyt: If you're connected to the Times-Picayune Orleans blog, post 8210 reports the D-Day is fine. Maybe you heard something more recent?

[Jadagul]

The other thing that, at least, I was taught in my history class: they originally built the city many miles upriver. But since the French were at war with the English, they needed something at the mouth of the river to keep the English from sailing a frigate up and destroying the city. Hence, New Orleans.

[Hakluyt]

Dynamist,

Well, its a "report" I heard third-hand. Could be just part of the rumor-mill. However, I've read that Pat Ricci (curator of the Confederate Memorial Hall in N.O.) has stated that the D-Day Museum was fucked up by looters (I don't have any links to direct comments by Pat though).

This is a good site for video of the Mississippi coast: http://www.wlbt.com/

[Dave]

I was more impressed with the following passage:

John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."

He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."

[Dynamist]

Jadaqui: There's a PGA course and mansion exurb just downriver from NOLA called English Turn. The French built a fort there when no settlement was very permanent. That's where Bienville stopped the British from moving upriver.

[Eric II]

Someone on MSNBC just mentioned that a prison in Mississippi released 30 guys being held for "non-violent offenses" (I have some guesses as to what they were) in order to make way for looters and violent criminals.

It's almost funny how a major catastrophe brings priorities to light.

[M1EK]

And NOBODY (up until me) has pointed out that the snipers shooting at the people trying to help evacuate are, possibly, just conceivably, just MAYBE a counterargument for gun ownership?

If only ALL the refugees in the Convention Center had a firearm each. THEN IT WOULD BE PARADISE!

[Tina]

Joe at 9/1/05 7:56pm:

I'm a Citibank employee, haven't heard bupkis about donating points - just the $3M with employee match. Got a link?

[Ruthless]

M1EK,
You give me a good lead-in to stand up for anarchy in the midst of hysteria.
Life will alway bounce back and forth between chaos and stasis. Between those boundaries is complexity. Complexity is the only home of life.
Anarchy is not chaos.
Anarchy is simply observing that human society's organizations, over the long run, don't make complexity into Utopia.
Societies very slowly evolve closer to Utopia--per Julian Simon--no thanks to organizations.

[Phil]

And NOBODY (up until me) has pointed out that the snipers shooting at the people trying to help evacuate are, possibly, just conceivably, just MAYBE a counterargument for gun ownership?

I'm willing to bet that one or more of those people did not come by those guns legally, and is in fact ineligible under state and/or Federal background check laws to own one.

[madpad]

I'm watchin' all this and all I can say is that it looks like a tremendous cluster fuck.

I was listening to Hannity ealier today and Shep Smith from Fox said that he hadn't seen a single soldier and that the folks out on I-10 hadn't had a single relief shipment of water or anything else in 3 days.

I understand tha math involved here as over a million people scramble for safety and millions more try to help.

But is it me or does it look like very little aid seems to be actually getting to the folks who are going where they're being told to go.

I've been in Florida most of my life and have endured many hurricanes of varying degrees of severity (though none of us has ever seen anything quite like this.)

But I've never seen or heard of the rampant looting, violence, rapes and chaos we're seeing in the Crescent City.

What's different here? I don't buy the scale of the crisis as the main cause. Certainly a lack of command & control is a factor. But I sense other things afoot.

Opinions?

[M1EK]

Phil,

And having all those guns readily available in stores to be looted is what sets us apart from the Europeans.

The medical patients who aren't getting evacuated because some other wastes of blood and hair looted guns and are now using them to take potshots probably don't have much enthusiasm for your position.

[M1EK]

"But I sense other things afoot.

Opinions?"

The people who wanted to starve the Federal Government appear to have gotten their wish. All of the relief so far appears to be coming from the state and locals - FEMA is a damn joke.

Word on the left is that FEMA's budget got slashed for Iraq. Big surprise.

[just wondering]

"Word on the left is that FEMA's budget got slashed for Iraq. Big surprise."

Big surprise that this (allegedly) happened or big surprise that this is the "word on the left"?

[Hakluyt]

I just talked to my mother. Bayou la Batre is gone (1,500 homes obliterated). Dauphin Island is gone (100s of homes obliterated).

[Phil]

And having all those guns readily available in stores to be looted is what sets us apart from the Europeans.

Yes, well, they certainly still find creative ways to maim and kill each other, don't they?

The medical patients who aren't getting evacuated because some other wastes of blood and hair looted guns and are now using them to take potshots probably don't have much enthusiasm for your position.

What's my position, Kreskin?

[M1EK]

just wondering,

It really did happen.

Phil,

Yeah; you hear about European disaster refugees scaring off rescuers by throwing knives and forks at helicopters all the time.

[Phil]

Between the strawman and ignoring the direct question, I'll take that as a concession that you don't actually know what "my position" is. I wouldn't go running to claim the JREF prize anytime soon if I were you.

[Jesse Walker]

M1EK: FEMA was turned over to one of Bush's cronies and then folded into the Department of Homeland Security, which as we all know is focused on terrorism not disaster relief. Though someone wrote into Josh Marshall's blog making a good point: If your agency exists to deal with terrorist attacks, making preparations for refugees ought to be pretty high up on your list. With all the talk of WMDs, you might think they'd be more prepared.

Madpad raises an important question, and I might be writing my next column about it. It's interesting that on 9/11, there was both a tremendous wave of spontaneous cooperation from below and a remarkably good performance by NYC's public sector (cops, firemen, mayor). In New Orleans, conversely, the social breakdown ripped through both the local government and the local voluntary sector. Make of that what you will.

In Louisiana, the fact that the government keeps telling people to gather in various places and then fails either to deliver the promised services or to keep order surely has something to do with the problem. Whether your preferences lean towards authority or anarchy, what has happened at the Superdome is the worst of both worlds.

Finally, re: guns -- unless you believe it possible for a modern American city to exist without any of the things lying around, they were going to get looted under such chaotic conditions. None of the snipers were going to face a waiting period or a background check, no matter what the law says. Widespread gun ownership isn't responsible for the sniper fire; it's responsible for the fact that at least some of the non-criminals can defend themselves.

[Hakluyt]

Jesse Walker,

9/11 was much more localized than what is happening along the Gulf Coast, and in NYC you could move people even after the towers fell. The fact pattern of these two disasters are very different.

[Hakluyt]

Honestly, this is the part of the world where I'm from and I feel like I've had my guts ripped out.

[Ira Weatheral]

Nicely put, Jesse.

[Dynamist]

Yeah, Hakluyt, I'm not from there, but I'm really well-connected. I can't get past how most of the blatherers don't get how huge this deal is. How do you prepare for a couple of million refugees from several hundred square miles of territory? There ain't no terrorist who can hold a candle to Mother Nature.

[Ammonium]

I think the key to what's happening in New Orleans is that there are more people there than they could have anticipated.

They did a horrible job getting people out. The governor said something like 200-300k people still have to be evacuated. I think initial projections were that only 100k would stay behind.

Second, the disaster unfolded much differently than anticipated. It was a fairly slow flood after the hurricane caused by a levee break. The anticipation was that the storm surge would push water over the levees and it would be trapped by the levees. Some scenarios I was hearing on Sunday suggested that the levees would have to be blasted in order to let some of the water escape. If a larger amount of water came in a faster amount of time, a lot more people would have died. But the lack of deaths has resulted in even more refugees.

In any case, this makes me angry to see all the money being given to all these communities for homeland security is being used so ineffectively. A lot of federal money has been funneled down to the state and local level, so it's a little depressing that the state and local leaders don't seem to have control over anything (look at the pathetic communications system!) and are crying for the federal government.

If the storm had gone further west, there would be fewer refugees to deal with and less damage to other areas allowing more federal resources to be devoted to Louisiana.

[Jesse Walker]

Haklyut: That's obviously a big difference, but it doesn't necessarily explain, or fully explain, the breakdown of social order. I used 9/11 as an easy example, but there are other cases of extremely impressive spontaneous cooperation during disasters -- and of civic chaos too, sometimes under conditions far less onerous than these.

Anyway, I'll be looking into the issue and maybe writing something more complete and less out-of-my-ass than the comment above.

I love that part of the country too. You've got my sympathy. Glad your family is all right.

[matt]

Haklut:

I hope all your friends and family made it through O.K. Do you know how your hometown in South Alabama faired?

[Hakluyt]

Dynamist,

As far as I am concerned this is more equivalent to the 1981 Yangtze river disaster than it is to 9/11. The Galveston disaster of 1900 would be similarly comparable. I've been through a fair number of hurricanes in my life, but I've never seen anything like this. The Russian army in 1945 did as good a job of turning Berlin into rubble as Katrina did with the Alabama and Mississippi coasts.

[TJIT]

Jesse,

The big difference between new york and new orleans is the radius of damage, infrastructure, and transport. In new york you could walk away from the towers and get to an undamaged area that had power, water, sewer service, and hospitals. In an hours walk you could get back to a modern functioning city.

In new orleans the destruction is so complete and widespread that it is impossible to walk any distance and obtain those basic services. The geography and road condiions make mechanized transport difficult to impossible. The hurricane and floodwaters erased every single bit of the infrastructure required to have a functioning city.

You would have probably seen the same sort of behavior post 9/11 in new york if the destruction and isolation had been as wide spread as it was in New Orleans.

[Jesse Walker]

Yes, that's clearly a big part of the answer. Maybe it's the whole answer. I'm not sure.

Here's an interesting piece on the issue.

[poco]

on 9/11, there was both a tremendous wave of spontaneous cooperation from below and a remarkably good performance by NYC's public sector (cops, firemen, mayor). In New Orleans, conversely, the social breakdown ripped through both the local government and the local voluntary sector. Make of that what you will.

Yeah, Jesse, 9/11 was akin to Pearl Harbor/WW2 in popular and global support while N.O. is turning out to be like -- Hm. Insert chaotic, prolonged, anomie'd, un-closured war of your choice. Vietnam. Bosnia. Iraq!

[Hakluyt]

Jesse Walker,

Thanks.

matt,

Well, Coden, Al. isn't really a town as much as its a post office and a few other buildings. My parents' house and restaurant made it through fine. Indeed, they should have a new generator (the old one was damaged by Katrina) up and running tomorrow to feed all the workers there. Unfortunately they had to throw out a ton of spoiled food.

Bayou la Batre would be the closest thing to a real town there, and at least 1/2 the structures in it are considered uninhabitable and are likely to be knocked down and sent off to the garbage dump. The fishing fleet is out of commission (much of it was driven onto land, etc.). The physical structures, etc. of the port are wrecked. A developer has been trying to buy the dock, etc. in order to turn the area into a resort community, etc., so the storm may sway the city and private land owners into accepting the proposal.

There's a few acres of land that my parents' own that sit across from the restaurant on Hwy. 188 and my mother has said that its filled with debris several feet high.

[Dynamist]

Jesse: There are indeed those events of spontaneous cooperation here. If you have not already checked, visit the Times-Picayune Orleans Help Center blog.

I suggest that negative side is not exactly a collapse of social order, but a collapse of the bars that keep an uncomfortable number of these chaotic people contained. NOLA was already at an unusually impressive murder total for the year. Now, without the po-po keeping the lid on the pot, I'm sure they're kings of that very ugly hill.

[Hakluyt]

The French say they're willing to send humanitarian aid and military forces.

[WTF!!!!]

I just read this quote from the Gov.

10:49 P.M. - (AP): Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared war on looters as 300 National Guard troops landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will," she said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

[Hakluyt]

Dynamist,

Well, certain portions of N.O. have always been dangerous at night. I mean, I love the city, but it has its problems even in normal times.

[jf]

Oh, come on, Jean, if you're going to tell us that France is "willing to send humanitarian aid and military forces" you have to link to a news article.

I've searched Google News and found rien other than an "offer to help", and interstingly, the UN is attached. Where did you see that military forces have been offered.

[poco]

I reckon shoot-to-kill is here, unlike the London Underground, the correct policy to adopt towards looting rapist thugs -- not just by cops or the National Guard, but any armed non-thug.

[Hakluyt]

jf,

Try AFP.

[poco]

ETA: Has the comparison to 28 Days Later been made here yet? That was disturbing enough as fiction.

[matt]

Wow...I just "mapquested" your hometown, Hakluyt, and you weren't kidding about being from South Alabama. Looks like it's less than a mile from Coden to the Gulf. That's about as south as you can get. 🙂

When I was younger my family and I used to frequent Gulf Shores every summer, but I've never been to the other side of Mobile Bay. Judging by the number of towns, it looks a lot less developed and less "touristy" (if that's even a word).

From your description it sounds like your parents will be alright. Good deal. Compared to many, I guess they were pretty lucky.

[jf]

Ok, I tried AFP and found nothing, because I'm lazy as sin. It's not that I don't believe you, but a linky would be sweet. I'm not trying to put you out, or call you a liar, but I'd love to see the article.

[Hakluyt]

matt,

Well, its much more "blue collar" (by that I mean working class fishermen, ship builders, etc.) than much of Baldwin County is. Yeah, if you drive from my parent's restaurant south you hit Alabama Port in about a mile and you are right on the water. Then its a mile or two from there to Dauphin Island. I'm guessing that at least a portion of the road you drive on before you get to Dauphin Island bridge is out in the bay.

[Hakluyt]

jf,

Here's an English version of the story.

[jf]

"Our operational humanitarian aid group is going to meet to study the civilian and military means that France could make available from French regions and the French West Indes," said a foreign ministry spokesman, Denis Simmoneau.

I'm sure that relieves the residents of New Orleans.

[Dynamist]

Well, certain portions of N.O. have always been dangerous at night. I mean, I love the city, but it has its problems even in normal times

It's pretty much poor people shooting other poor people. A tourist getting more than pickpocketed is surprisingly rare. All them bars on the windows aren't for decoration, but tourists wouldn't see much of that, either. The crime does keep a lid on housing costs. 😉

[mac]

I just gave some cash to the Red Cross. Let me say, I'd have much rather spent that lucre on taxes going to the Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees around NOLA. It would have done a lot more good...

[mediageek]

Haklyut: That's obviously a big difference, but it doesn't necessarily explain, or fully explain, the breakdown of social order. I used 9/11 as an easy example, but there are other cases of extremely impressive spontaneous cooperation during disasters -- and of civic chaos too, sometimes under conditions far less onerous than these.

It would probably be easier to draw a comparison between NOLA and, say, the 1965 east coast blackout, the 1977 NYC blackout, and the more recent failure of the powergrid in Ohio and surrounding areas.

Of course, those were just powerfailures. With NOLA, you've got massive power failure, flooding, a notoriously corrupt police force, and a state government that can't seem to find it's ass with both hands, a mirror, and a map.

________________________________

As to M1EK and his stance on firearms, I suspect that he would sing a different tune in such a situation and either seek out a firearm on his own, or try to make nice with those who've got 'em.

On more than one occassion I've had people possessed of an anti-gun stance say that if disaster were to strike, my place would be their first stop.

[mediageek]

The other lesson to be taken from this whole thing, at least with regard to the gun issue, is that a gun is only as good or evil as the person who weilds it.

[Hakluyt]

Dynamist,

I tend to do unwise things like walk into the "bad neighborhoods" of cities by myself.

I wonder when I'll be able to go to the Cafe du Monde again? Kroger carries their beignet mix now, BTW, so I don't have to order it from amazon.com anymore.

[Ammonium]

This sounds digusting. These people are being dicked around and treated like animals. The national guard doesn't even have the decency to hand over the food. No, they have to throw it off an overpass. The good people in the crowd can be victimized by the criminals and the authorities won't do a thing unless they try to escape by stealing some rich guy's car. I mean, there have been reports of multiple murders happening.

The FEMA director was on Nightline tonight and had no knowledge of the convention center. It's obvious that there is absolutely no communication between FEMA and the state authorities. Since these problems don't exist in other states, plus the state's treatment of its black population is criminal, I would conclude that the state has very little control over the situation and no competence.

I know a lot of libertarians would disagree with it, but there have been numerous times when the federal government has had to usurp the powers of southern states that are screwing their black population. This seems like the time to do it again. Louisiana is simply too incompetent and corrupt.

Bush had better get on this. No lay person understands that the governor is in charge of the national guard "hey, it's the army, the President's in charge!" He can't sit back, let Louisiana screw up and hope that he's off the hook. In the 1950s when the governor of Arkansas was using the national guard to keep blacks out of schools, did Ike sit back and go "well that's really not my problem"? No, he federalized the national guard! Soon they were guarding the black kids from the state troopers.

[mediageek]

And by "weild" I of course, mean "wield."

i before e except after c...

[DB]

If your agency exists to deal with terrorist attacks, making preparations for refugees ought to be pretty high up on your list. With all the talk of WMDs, you might think they'd be more prepared.

I thought that the federal government had primarily dealt with that issue by giving state and city governments funding to draw up their own local disaster-response plans. Did they not do that with Louisiana or New Orleans?

[Stevo Darkly]

And NOBODY (up until me) has pointed out that the snipers shooting at the people trying to help evacuate are, possibly, just conceivably, just MAYBE a counterargument for gun ownership?

Considering that:

1) It's likely the snipers are vastly outnumbered by other people in the area who do not snipe and would not snipe if they had guns, and, in fact, probably are strongly opposed to snipers...

and

2) If a sniper were surrounded by armed anti-snipers, they could probably make him stop sniping ...

...I'd say this is an argument for EVEN MORE gun ownership.

[Stevo Darkly]

And having all those guns readily available in stores to be looted is what sets us apart from the Europeans.

Pooey. European gun policy is vastly inferior to American gun policy. Here's my take on it -- and Godwin be damned.

Under American policy, gun ownership is relatively plentiful. As a result, from time to time, Americans have to deal with post-hurricane snipers and the occasional Eric Kleibold.

Under the policies of most European countries, gun ownership is restricted to a small number of people per approval of their governments. As a result, from time to time, Europeans have to deal with a Hitler, a Mussolini, or a Ceausescu.

And since Kleibold was an admirer of Hitler, the Europeans should take some of the blame for him too.

True, at least Europe doesn't have a bunch of teenagers toting guns. That's why Europe had to import so many gun-toting teenagers from America during World War Two.

[Hakluyt]

jf,

The Canadian Heavy Urban Search and Rescue group is one the scene in NOLA.

[Portlander]

True, at least Europe doesn't have a bunch of teenagers toting guns. That's why Europe had to import so many gun-toting teenagers from America during World War Two.

Bravo!

[Hakluyt]

Getting into a trans-Atlantic pissing contest isn't particularly useful.

Anyone hear the Mayor of NOLA's scathing verbal attack?

[Jennifer]

It's about damned time the authorities decided to take a shoot-to-kill policy toward the looters. Had they done that from the beginning (not against those who took food and baby supplies from the supermarkets, but against those who looted jewelry and luxuries; non-survival looting, in other words) maybe this lawlessness would have been nipped in the bud. As it is, between NPR and various TV and Web news reports, I gather there are bands of armed thugs roaming around raping, beating and murdering with impunity. Girls are actually being raped within the Superdome. I think it's akin to the old "broken windows" theory of crime: let thugs realize they can get away with stealing right in front of the police, and they'll soon move on to harder crimes.

After toying with the idea for a couple of years now, this has settled it for me: I'm buying a gun. My town's not likely to ever suffer catastrophic flooding, but a societal breakdown can happen anywhere, given the right circumstances.

Glad to hear you and yours made it through okay, Hakluyt.

[olaf]

>Anyone hear the Mayor of NOLA's scathing verbal attack?<<br />
Given his own more than lamentable performance atop of the abominable and gross incompetence of his own corrupt city government the rantings of this asshat indeed show a grade of brazeness and chutzpa that's second to none! Quite admirable, in some way.

[Jennifer]

Even if you take the brutal social Darwinist position that cities should take care of their own disaster plans and fuck 'em if they don't, isn't the existence of the energy infrastructure down there reason enough for the Feds to get involved in protection? It's not just the Gulf coast that's being affected by the destruction; gas shortages are popping up all over the East Coast.

I keep thinking of where I grew up, in Virginia near the Norfolk Naval Base (largest Navy base in the world). If ships want to get from the base into the Atlantic they have to pass through a body of water known as Hampton Roads, which is NOT part of the Navy base but is, I believe, divided between the city limits of Norfolk, Virginia Beach and Chesapeake.

If a catastrophic storm made Hampton Roads impassable, our largest navy base, and a good chunk of our fleet, would be useless. So for those of you who say New Orleans (and the energy infrastructure there) should take care of its own disaster problems, would you also say that the cities of southeastern Virginia should be fully responsible for keeping the waterways leading to the navy base clear? Or would you consider that of sufficient national importance to warrant Federal money where necessary?

[madpad]

Jennifer,

I bnought one years ago. This is only convinced me to buy more ammunition.

As for the looting...I've been giving this one a lot of thought, though it's kind of a "chicken & egg" sort of argument.

That police are unable to communicate with one another lays some serious shit right at the feet of the first responders. Disaster come in all shapes and sizes but in New Orleans, it's going to invariably ionvolve flooding. And a few things common to most disasters is a loss of power. That radios and communication don't work is appaling and radiates incompetence.

I've been hearing that as many as 30 police officers grabbed their families and left in city-owned vehicles and are refusing to go back so that kind of says something about the situation... maybe even the caliber of people employed.

As for the social order break down? I think when you have a quarter of a million people - most poorly educated and with little personal resources and no transportation - suddenly stranded, it's pretty bad.

But when you tell them to go someplace for relief...and then fail to provide relief...and then point guns at them...while their children are sick and family members are dying in their midst...well, you've pretty much fucked the situation.

[Jennifer]

I've been hearing that as many as 30 police officers grabbed their families and left in city-owned vehicles and are refusing to go back so that kind of says something about the situation... maybe even the caliber of people employed.

Yeah, well, I gather the NOLA cops were pretty much useless even in non-dire situations. A couple of days ago I saw looting on the news--a bunch of people going through a Wal-Mart, including uniformed NOLA cops. Bad enough that they were looting, but they didn't even have any qualms about looting right in front of cameras sending broadcasts over national television!

Well, we are now officially one of those hellhole countries who can't even take care of their own citizens in times of emergency; instead, we have people dying of starvation or dehydration on live television. You'd think the extremists of the "Hooray for America but fuck individual Americans" variety would at least care about the loss of prestige on the world stage, if nothing else. Or the fact that a good hunk of our energy infrastructure is out of commission.

[madpad]

Jennifer,

Reminds me of that bit from Airplane.

"They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say...let 'em crash!"

Beyond power issues, the simple inarguable fact is that those folks pay income tax...to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...To protect their lives, liberties and pursuits of happiness...in this sort of situation through an arm of the Federal Government known as FEMA.

Hell yes, the Federal Government should be involved. This affects the whole country. Gas prices, disease, port facilities (85 ships are waiting there to dock and off-load cargo), and the list goes on.

The prune-faced curmudgeons who can't see that aren't thinking straight

[Ruthless]

Jennifer,
Looters, shot or un-shot, are a distraction right now.
Shooting looters is another typical misdirection of government resources.
It's the sort of thing government does best, but it's ineffective.

[madpad]

Jennifer,

The extremists of the "Hooray for America but fuck individual Americans" just chalk it up to personal responsibility.

Don't forget, "This is a land of opportunity...not entitlement" is their motto

Certainly, there is great truth in that simple statement. But the world is a far more complicated place and to rest upon those sentiments when your countrymen are in distress really leads one to question the principles on which folks like that base their lives.

[Jennifer]

Looters, shot or un-shot, are a distraction right now. Shooting looters is another typical misdirection of government resources.

Perhaps I should explain that I used the term "looters" as shorthand for "the armed thugs who are stealing relief supplies or sniping evacuees from the hospitals or hijacking ambulances and relief vehicles or forming armed gangs of rapists or murdering people just for fun."

And I repeat: if the authorities had dealt with them harshly from the get-go, things probably wouldn't be so bad right now.

[TJIT]

I'd say lessons learned from this storm are.

1. Biggest and most important lesson. You can't depend on the local, state or federal government to take care of you in the aftermath of a disaster.

2. Have enough food, water and supplies for at least a week.

3. Have a bug out kit in the house and ready to go at a moments notice. You should probably store things like family photos and important financial papers in waterproof containers and have them ready to grab and go.

4. Have firearms to protect all of the above

[madpad]

Can't disagree, but it's all academic now.

And looters who've turned into snipers (and killed a handful of people) are just the cherry on the sundae when you've got thousands of people dying and in distress just a few miles away who aren't shooting anyone...and you still can't seem to get them food and water.

[madpad]

My prediction ror the next big hurricane (Coming to an eastern coast near you...possibly in the next2 months!)

1. Fear and panic

2. Run on gun stores

3. Run on local banks

4. Run on gas stations

5. More fear and panic

6. Fights, shootings, more panic

Remember that Twilight Zone episode where the power went out in the suburb and in hours everyone was at each others throats...and it was revealed that aliens seeking to invade had cut the power and sat back to let us destroy ourselves saving them the trouble?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Jennifer:

Before you get your new toy, be sure to check out your local gun ranges and sign up for a class or two. I and thoreau have done this recently and have come across friendly people who are happy to share what they know.

As mentioned frequently, it's good to be familiar with a pistol, but little beats a shotgun for home defense. In an anarchy situation it would be my best friend.

M1EK: If you want to be a sheep then that's your prerogative. But when big daddy government is slow to come to your rescue (if they come at all), then just simply lay down and let the wolves have you. It'll be quicker that way.

[TJIT]

I'm surprised M1EK could read (big thread so he might have missed it) the passage below and still support gun control.

Notice one guy used a gun to defend himself from looters carrying knives and machetes. If it had not been knives and machetes simple numbers (5 to 10 unarmed looters against 1 unarmed victim) would mean that unarmed civilians would be absolutely at the mercy of looters.

"John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered.""

[Jennifer]

MNG--

I forgot to mention, it's a shotgun that I'm planning to get. I prefer something that can still be effective even without pinpoint aim. And I've already decided to find a gun class or something. I'm not surprised by the friendliness of gun-club members; it's similar to the way people in the smoking section all get along. (We social pariahs have to stick together.)

Madpad--

"The Monsters are Coming on Maple Street."

[Jennifer]

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered.""

I wouldn't have fired over their heads; why let them survive to go victimize somebody else?

[MP]

I wouldn't have fired over their heads; why let them survive to go victimize somebody else?

Because, unless caught in the act, "preventative homicide" is clearly murder.

[Solitudinarian]

I forgot to mention, it's a shotgun that I'm planning to get.

Excellent choice, Jennifer, but prepare yourself for its kick. May I recommend the Remington 870 Marine Magnum?

[joe]

Tina,

I called the customer service number and was transferred to the "Points Rewards" system or whatever the hell they call it. There are an array of charities, including the Red Cross. 10,000 points = $100.

Given my, er, temporary shortage of liquidity, I'll be able to report about the points-to-charity options of a number of national credit card companies in a day or two.

[Jennifer]

MP-

We're not talking about a man who shot a guy on suspicion of being wicked; we're talking about a guy who shot a man who brandished a knife at him.

Solitude--

Yes, I've heard about the kick of shotguns. How would your recommended model work for a woman who is very skinny, very small, rather weak (all her strength went to her personality and left nothing for her body), and--in all seriousness--has a small shoulder that is only about four inches wide, from the base of the neck to the edge of the shoulder?

[Akira MacKenzie]

I wouldn't have fired over their heads; why let them survive to go victimize somebody else?

I wouldn't go as far as to shoot the SOB unless he was actually making an attempt to rob me. MP does have a point about the legality. Also, I wouldn't waste the ammo with the display. Save them, you might need them.

[joe]

My wife was telling me about an inteview with Micheal Chertoff, the Sec of Homeland Defense, on NPR last night. Ken Soporiphic, or whatever his name was, was telling Chertoff about the Convention Center, and Chertoff was steadfastly denying that such a thing was happening, and insisting that every location where people had sought refuge had received food and water. The NPR guy kept repeating, "We have a reporter on scene, and he's telling me that there are thousands of people there, they haven't received food or water in days, and there are dead bodies lying around." Chertoff continued to deny that it was happening.

When the NPR guy insisted, Chertoff said, "That's not happening, and when you repeat rumors and innuendo, you're harming the relief effort." Just like the fucking war! Assholes, every single one of them.

[Jennifer]

I wouldn't waste the ammo with the display. Save them, you might need them.

Akira, he already wasted ammo by firing over their heads. My point was, if someone comes onto your property with a knife and demands you hand over your stuff, what the HELL makes you think that if he fails at stealing from you he's just going to give up and go home? The Magnum owner shot over their heads and said "they scattered;" do you seriously think they they scattered harmlessly, ad went home? Or do you think they found some gunless person to steal from?

As for the legality--if nothing is being done about girls being raped all over the city, including in the fucking Superdome, then I don't think the cops have the time to do anything to homeowners protecting their property.

[Jennifer]

Joe--

Yes, I've heard lots of government reports that things are really, really just fine down there, and nobody is suffering anything worse that sweatiness from the lack of air-conditioning.

I don't know if they are consciously lying, or if they honestly believe what they say. I also don't know what would be worse.

[mediageek]

Jennifer-

For a shotgun, look at an autoloader that incorporates a gas system like the Franchi 612. I recently competed with one at the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun match, and found that even with 1 oz slugs the recoil was manageable.

Avoid the Benelli M1 Super 90, as it has what I consider to be excessive recoil. Pump-action shotguns will have more severe recoil than autoloaders.

Since you describe yourself as being built kind of small, you may consider going with a 20 gauge shotgun instead of a 12 gauge. The ammo selection is not as wide, but still encompasses all of the basics; birdshot, buckshot, slugs, etc.

Also, look into getting a recoil reduction buttpad on the stock, and most importantly I can't stress enough how important it is to get measured and have the stock fitted to you.

An ill-fitting stock will simply make the firearm very uncomfortable to shoot.

[Jennifer]

Mediageek--

Thank you. I am cutting and pasting your post into an e-mail, which I am sending to my home address.

[joe]

"Widespread gun ownership isn't responsible for the sniper fire; it's responsible for the fact that at least some of the non-criminals can defend themselves."

I'm not completely down with M1EK's implied positition on gun ownership, but those irresponsible gun store owners who scampered away, knowing there was a disaster coming, and left their stocks just sitting there committed the equivalent of opening the tigers' cages at the zoo. It isn't the "widespread gun ownership" that's the problem necessarily, but I'm not terribly happy about how that ownership became even more widespread.

Phil, should I interpret your earlier comment about the looters not qualifying for gun purchases to mean you support the Brady Act and other gun-rights-curtailing legislation?

[Jennifer]

By the way, Mediageek (bearing in mind I know little about guns) what is a "gauge," and why did you recommend a larger gauge for a smaller person? Why would 20 be better for me than 12? I'd think the opposite would be the case.

[MP]

When the NPR guy insisted, Chertoff said, "That's not happening, and when you repeat rumors and innuendo, you're harming the relief effort." Just like the fucking war! Assholes, every single one of them.

That truly is unbelievable. And considering the Bush administration's record regarding accountability, he'll probably get a raise.

[madpad]

Regarding the previous mention of the NOLA Mayor and his rant...yeah, he's (probably) a corrupt official presiding over a largely corrupt, ineffectual and incompetent group of city services - mainly police.

But IMHO, he's got a gripe. FEMA is not looking good on this one. Neither is Bush.

Bush has had little to say about the disaster or the management of it.

He's had plenty to say about gas prices and why we shouldn't panic over them.

NEW MOVIE REFERENCE: Kevin Bacon in Animal House screaming "All is WELL!"

I'm not one to usually agree with pundits of any stripe. But I had to say I was struck by the guy on NPR who pointed out something interesting.

While politicians and entertainers are all over the place with relief efforts, Oil Companies with record profits were conspicuously absent in any public display of relief offerings themselves...like say a pledge not to take undue advantage of the situation. Or even to provide gas for the relief efforts.

Not saying they should, mind you. Not even questiioning the wisdom or morality either way.

To quote C & C music factory, "It just one of those things that makes you go, "Hmmmm""

[crimethink]

joe,

I thought it was only Republicans who were borrow and spend! 😉

To gain an appreciation for the level of destruction, watch the video of the Mississippi coast post-Katrina (can't remember the site) vs the Google maps sattelite photos of the same area pre-Katrina. Quite a change.

[joe]

"Bush has had little to say about the disaster or the management of it."

Actually, this is as it should be. The President should be Feeler of Your Pain in Chief, and there should be an able lifelong disaster relief manager running things. Not a fucking estate lawyer/campaign donor.

[Jennifer]

When the NPR guy insisted, Chertoff said, "That's not happening, and when you repeat rumors and innuendo, you're harming the relief effort."

Awesome! So now, in addition to blaming the Iraq debacle on those who questioned the way the war was being handled, we can blame the NOLA debacle on those who questioned why the hell the relief efforts are such a clusterfuck.

And y'all know what that means--once again, it's all the fault of Joe and his liberal buddies. J'accuse, Joe!

[Col DuBois]

Why don't we just nuke NO? That would evaporate all the standing water AND take care of the looters.

Of course, I just know that some of you people are going to flame me for thinking outside the box. I ask in advance what YOUR plan is to take care of these twin problems.

[Phil]

Phil, should I interpret your earlier comment about the looters not qualifying for gun purchases to mean you support the Brady Act and other gun-rights-curtailing legislation?

joe, you interpret whatever you want however you like. After your sick, contemptible comment to fyodor on the "Three Days" thread, lumping all libertarians in with the troll Briana to demonstrate that we're "less than compassionate," you can shove my earlier comment directly up your ass, for all I care.

[Flyover Country]

joe,

Lousiana and New Orleans have been run by DEMOCRATS for years. Is the title of Mayor of New Orleans just an honorary title. Don't the mayor and the governor have the primary responsibility for their city and state? They seem to spend more time deflecting blame than doing anything.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Why would 20 be better for me than 12? I'd think the opposite would be the case.

Believe it or not, Jen, a 20 gauge is actually smaller than a 12.

[Solitudinarian]

Sorry, Jennifer; I was out for a quick, late lunch.

Mediageek has said everything you need to know, except maybe that the higher gauge, the smaller the inside diameter of the barrel. That's why (more or less) a 20 gauge will have less kick than a 12 gauge.

But definitely have an expert go with you. An ill-fitting stock is an ill thing indeed.

[xieta_IP]

Excellent Lew Rockwell analysis of New Orleans events at mises.org.

http://www.mises.org/story/1902

[joe]

If you read through that thread, Phil, there are plenty of people lumping themselves in with Briana.

[Jennifer]

According to CNN, even Bush says that what's going on in New Orleans "is not acceptable." So, considering the standard accusation certain far-right-wingers have used against anyone who dared criticize anything the government's done these last few years, I cannot resist the urge to bring out this dusty old cliche: Why does Bush hate America?

[Phil]

I don't care what other people are choosing for themselves, joe. You don't control them, and neither do I. I care that you told fyodor that you were going to link to the thread in the future to demonstrate that "libertarians are less than compassionate." As in, all of us. (Way to take responsibility for your own comment, though. Not.)

On a day when I give away part of my paycheck to two charities to help in whatever little way I can, and when I have to help de-stress my wife after she's been dealing with relief and communications efforts all day at ARC HQ, I don't need that kind of kick in the teeth from someone who aspires to be taken seriously here.

[Cliff]

This only reinforces my belief that the government, with its inaction and sporadic efforts at control, is scarier than any terrorist attack. I hold Bush and his cronies and the entire Homeland Security / FEMA industrial complex accountable for the debacle we are witnessing. You can't control Mother Nature (Art Bell would disagree), but the damage could have been mitigated if the levees were strengthened and a serious discussion of true disaster preparation had taken place. Everyone was all up tight about a dirty nuke and a freaking hurricane showed us that we are way not prepared for either one. I just hope that nothing else on this scale happens somewhere else in the US during this.

[Isaac Bartram]

Why would 20 be better for me than 12?

Jennifer, it sounds strange but the smaller the number the larger the bore. A 12 Ga is about 78" while a 20 is around 5/8" (guesses, not accurate measurements). Similar to wire gauges.

[Isaac Bartram]

78" should read 7/8"

[Licker]

Anybody notice the race element in this whole mess? Nary a white face among the refugees, nary a black face among the cops. An oversimplication, of course, but there is a racial dimension here that nobody is talking about.

[Jennifer]

On another note, this further proves how fucking useless Homeland Security is. I thought our post-9/11 activities were supposed to prepare us for another disaster?

And I'm not blaming Republicans--I'm blaming the government. All of them, Republican and Democrat alike. I'll ignore Iraq and the War on Terror for now, and just point out that the government has spent most of its time and money worrying about pippy-poo bullshit like bad words on television and sex photos on the Net and "meth mouth" and marijuana, instead of worrying about what the fuck we'd do if a major city were destroyed and a million people transformed overnight into homeless and unemployed refugees.

[Phil]

If by "nobody," Licker, you mean, well, "everybody," sure.

See here and here to start. And, well, pretty much all the other threads.

[Randolph Carter]

Licker,
David Brooks wrote an editorial in the NYT on monday that was titled somthing along the lines of "They're all poor and black."

Someone's talking about it.

[joe]

Phil, go back to that thread, if you will.

If it makes you feel better, I'll tack on "...in their political philosophy."

[Phil]

It's not about me feeling better. It's about what's true and what's not.

[Phil]

It has nothing to do with me feeling better. It has to do with "telling the truth" vs. "lying." Or, if you prefer, "misrepresenting." And adding "in their political philosophy" still does not make the statement true.

Be a man, joe.

[joe]

You want truth, Phil? The truth is, you won't find these sentiments expressed in the comment threads on Kos's blog.

"oh yeah and all the dumb asses who chose to live there despite knowing this and dispite that new Orleans had since sunk below sea level"

"Glad you said "many" because "most" are just idiots who had a weeklong heads-up to GTF outta town (and a lifetime to buy flood insurance)."

"Not that I particularly care about their welfare"

"damn, one big flood and even reason throws libertarianism out the window"

"um, excuse me, but the gov't shouldn't be in the business of disaster relief, or for that matter, recovery."

That's just from the one "Three Days" thread. Truly.

[Renee]

Man, if I owned a shop in New Orleans, I would SO be out there with a 12 gauge defending my place.

As Ash said in Army of Darkness, "This is my BOOMSTICK!" (I love that line).

I am saddened by how quickly the 'jungle mentality' returns to humans when something like this happens.

Renee

[Ammonium]

Homeland security is a fucking welfare program. Half the money goes to Podunk, Nebraska. The other half goes to cities that make no plans and cry for help when something happens.

[Renee]

I think a lot of the misery we are seeing is due partly to people being so bloody dependent on the government. We've learned to be helpless.

Hell, this is been a big lesson for me and I hope I can teach it to my son, too. DON'T DEPEND ON THE GOVERNMENT. DO THINGS FOR YOURSELF.

[Cliff]

What the hell are taxes for if not for something like this? Jennifer, your previous post was dead on, 20 billion dollar drug war, but no disaster preparedness.

[Ammonium]

The entire government -- at all levels -- is a giant welfare program.

The only thing the government can do successfully is blow things up.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, Cliff, but don't forget what's really important--when the New Orleanians regain electricity, they can turn on their television sets without being menaced by Janet jackson's nipple!

[Phil]

You want truth, Phil? The truth is, you won't find these sentiments expressed in the comment threads on Kos's blog

You want me to go look through the diaries at Kos for contemptible stuff, joe? Then hold it up as representative of what liberals think? Because I will. Just say the word. Dare me.

Nice to know, finally, what you really think of us, though. I'll always keep in mind when I read your stuff, and treat you with all the respect you've earned.

[poco]

OK, maybe I'm getting bloodthirsty, but this seems to me a good opportunity (cris-a-tunity?) to artificially Darwinize the thug scum without due process. "Let God sort 'em out." And in the longer term, an op to clean up NO socially. Get the corrupt cops out and some good ones in. Or is the corruption as fatally entrenched as the flooding? I hope not.

I love the AP (?) headline, "Tourists Realize They're Afterthought." Except mentally substitute "well and truly fucked" or "rat meat" for "afterthought".

[MP]

BTW...read the latest Barnett post. Just an absolute nightmare...

[smacky]

I've been hearing that as many as 30 police officers grabbed their families and left in city-owned vehicles and are refusing to go back so that kind of says something about the situation... maybe even the caliber of people employed.

All of those fucking people should be fired permanently from their government positions, and court-martialed. Whatever happened to "serve and protect"? Oh wait, I guess they're serving and protecting....their own self-interests. Seriously, if you're a fucking cop, you should not be leaving. That is when you should be "on duty" or otherwise on-hand and ready to go on duty when the time for their normal work hours arrives. Send your families away and kiss your fucking wife goodbye. How the fuck did the military and peace officers ever get so fucking pansy? If you didn't really want the duties, don't fucking sign up for the job. It's not all coffee and glazed cruellers, all the time.
And then the national guard doesn't even have the decency to hand food over to willing, unarmed civilians? WTF?

Renee,

WWAD? (What would Ash do?)
(I love Bruce Campbell).

[joe]

Phil,

You're just now coming to realize that I believe you've bought into a political philosophy that is not adequately concerned with providing for the needy?

Well, I'm glad we've cleared that up.

[Ammonium]

Cops in New Orleans, like cops in a lot of American cities, are apparently just a patronage job. Give them the money, but don't make them do anything.

[joe]

Also, Phil,

Reading the comments on liberal blogs has demonstrated to me that leftish politics have their own weaknesses and blidspots. Outright bigotry towards religious people, for example - not in the case of everyone, or even a majority, but common enough to convince me that it is a systemic weakness of that system of thought that one needs to guard against. Or the lazy belief that disparities in wealth are always the result of theft, cheating, or injustice. Or a hostility towards profit-making, and a lack of appreciation for its role in driving economic growth. Or a lack of appreciation for the poverty-reducing influence of economic growth, and the lazy assumption that extra growth will only enrich the already rich. As I said, not in the minds of all, or even most, liberals, but enough to make me aware of the need to look out for those pitfalls.

[Fred]

I've heard on NPR that NOAA is forecasting a few more hurricanes for the remainder of the season. May not hit the Gulf, but it sure would make a mess of things if there was another storm, even a small one . . .

[Fred]

Here's the link:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/outlooks/hurricane.html

[Phil]

No, I've just come to realize that you're a smug cocksucker who doesn't actually know anything about the people, as individuals, with whom he spends hours of every day online for reasons known only to himself. (I suspect it's because you can wake up, go online, read some H&R threads, and think to yourself, "I'm better than somebody today! Yay, me!")

I don't need you or anyone else to approve of my record on compassion and charity, and what's more, I'm not going to wave it around in an attempt to impress anyone. The important things are that a) you're wrong, and b) you're too much of a coward to admit it.

Most of the actual on-the-ground relief work of providing shelter, clothing, food, counseling, relocation assistance, etc., is going to be done by private groups like the Salvation Army, Red Cross, et al. Groups that all of us here support, that nobody has spoken out against, and that multiple threads have asked people to contribute to. (How's those credit card points going, joe?)

"Believing that there can be solutions -- even collective (gasp!) solutions -- that do not involve state action" is not the same fucking thing as "not adequately concerned with providing for the needy," but you're too cowardly to admit that, either.

[mediageek]

Jennifer-

Thanks.

Shotguns are weird. The larger the number, the smaller the cartridge it fires. The smallest commercially available shotgun chambering is 410 ga.

The way it's done is idiotic, but no one asked my opinion. *shrugs shoulders*

A lot of shotguns have barrels capable of accepting chokes, which are a tube that screws into the front of the barrel and will change how tightly the shot pellets pattern.

For a defensive shotgun, don't worry about getting a barrel that can do this. Go for an improved cylinder barrel, and get a fairly short barrel, between 18.5-20ish inches. This is the most versatile, and you can shoot buckshot or slugs through them. Long skeet barrels suck for home defense.

The other important thing is training. Take a basic firearms safety course, and if you can swing the cost, a defensive shotgun course.

I don't know your area at all, but the 2nd Amendment Sisters have a listing of instructors
here.

[crimethink]

smacky,

Just be prepared for any killed cops' mommies demanding meetings with the mayor about "why my son had to die."

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"On another note, this further proves how fucking useless Homeland Security is. I thought our post-9/11 activities were supposed to prepare us for another disaster?"

Miss Jennifer:

I know from first-hand experience that after 9/11, disaster response planning went heavily towards man-made (terrorism) at the expense of natural disasters. The government has a really hard time concentrating on more then one possible type of event at a time. If a dirty bomb went off in New Orleans instead, I think the response would've been much more impressive.

Kudos towards your interest in shotguns. I like a girl who takes no shit and can take care of herself. I wish there were a lot more of you 🙂

[smacky]

crimethink,

I think I see what you're getting at. I do not disagree with you.

[jfk]

Yeah, it kills me that one of the few things our government should be doing is providing for social order during times of national crisis, and it can't even get that right. And this after supposedly planning on similar contingencies for at least four years. These people are fucking worthless.

[joe]

'"Believing that there can be solutions -- even collective (gasp!) solutions -- that do not involve state action" is not the same fucking thing as "not adequately concerned with providing for the needy,"'

No, it's not. Nor is stating "It's their own fault," "It's not my problem," "I don't care about their welfare" the same fucking thing as "believing there can be solutions that do not involve state action."

[Phil]

What front-page posters or regular commenters have said ANY of those things, joe, rather than urged people to give what they can to aid relief efforts? I'll spot you Dynamist. Name three more.

[Isaac Bartram]

The way it's done is idiotic, but no one asked my opinion.

Actually it's logical in its own twisted way.

Like wire guages it's a weight gauge. the Guage number is the number of lead balls of that diameter that weigh one pound. Now why they did it that way I know not. That's just the English for you.

The exception in shotgun sizes is the .410 which is actually measured the same as a rifle calibre. ie 0.410" diameter.

Maybe you already knew that.

[Ammonium]

" he spends hours of every day online for reasons known only to himself."

Joe must work for the government.

[Flyover Country]

Ammonium,

Then it's all joe's fault.

The responsibility for the disaster that NO has become certainly couldn't be the responsibility of the local officials (like the mayor or governor).

It must be the federal governments fault. Of course, if the mayor was a Republican and the President was a Democrat, It would be the other way around.

[Phil]

Local officials bear responsibility for not providing adequate means for low-income, carless, sick or disabled people to evacuate during the mandatory evacuation.

Federal officials bear responsibility for defunding the SELA program and mismanaging FEMA.

Is that so hard to figure out?

[mediageek]

Isaac-

Actually I didn't know that. Thanks.

I have heard that some 410 shotguns can also fire .45 Colt, but I figured that was just some sort of happy coincidence.

[Ammonium]

I don't think Joe works in Louisiana. But I wouldn't be surprised if they have government employees sitting around on Internet forums right now.

The mayor and the governor are being portrayed as a couple of victims in this disaster. Victims who have billions of dollars of funding for emergency services and "homeland security".

Somebody needs to be calling out the governor right now, but they won't do it because of politics -- they'll just pretend that state government failures are the fault of the federal government. There will be plenty of time to blame Bush for this homeland security charade he's created after this disaster.

[Ammonium]

Why should federal money be spent so that some people in New Orleans can live below sea level. It's these civil engineering jobs that have created the doomsday scenario we are witnessing.

FEMA is obviously an incompetent organization, but nobody is even telling them what is happening in New Orleans except the news media. That's pathetic.

[WSDave]

Word is that the French have offered to buy back all of the land sold in the Louisiana Purchase, and at the same price they sold it for, in spite of the weather damage.

[Nelson Munz]

at the same price they sold it for

Ha, ha!

[Girth]

mediageed and Jennifer-

I have to disagree about the pump action media. While you are right, there would be less recoil with a gas-auto, pumps have a great feature for home and self-defense. Racking it. There's no mistaking that sound, and few sounds more likely to make a criminal piss his pants.

[Girth]

mediageek, sorry

you don't even need to fire a shot if they've run away

[Dynamist]

I think a lot of the misery we are seeing is due partly to people being so bloody dependent on the government. We've learned to be helpless.

Hell, this is been a big lesson for me and I hope I can teach it to my son, too. DON'T DEPEND ON THE GOVERNMENT. DO THINGS FOR YOURSELF.

It was so good that I had to repost. Thanks, Renee.

Notice that there's basically no self-ordering of the people around the Dome (there is in other parts of the city). Somebody there might suggest carrying the dead all in to place, collecting the trash in another, and keeping more of the area in better shape. Maybe someone tried, but was beat down. So the masses wait in jumbled squalor. It is a crowd of adult-sized 7-year-olds waiting for their parents.

WSDave: That was kinda funny. Maybe we could buy it and establishe Libertopia.

[Ethel]

Liberdopia.

[Isaac Bartram]

I have heard that some 410 shotguns can also fire .45 Colt

I something like that in a catalog. If it had enough beef to take the breech pressure it would be fine. Actually I think it might be the other way around though (you can shoot 410 ammo in some 45 colts).

The Australians bored out a lot of their old Lee-Enfields to make 410 shotguns. I think the Indians and Brits did too.

[Dynamist]

Phil & joe: I haven't said "It's their own fault," "It's not my problem," "I don't care about their welfare".

The closest you can get is that I insist some of the blame fall on the people who were willfully ignorant and depended on the gov't to save them.

Ultimately, it is nature's fault for the storm and flood, and man's for all that happens afterward.

[Stevo Darkly]

I'm not surprised by the friendliness of gun-club members; it's similar to the way people in the smoking section all get along.

Reminds me of the essay "An Armed Society Is a Friendly Society."

[Phil]

The closest you can get is that I insist some of the blame fall on the people who were willfully ignorant and depended on the gov't to save them.

That "willful ignorance" thing only flies so far. If FEMA and the rest of the Federal disaster response can get off the hook with "We didn't know it was going to be so bad," so can everyone else. Certainly the government, with NOAA and the NHC at its disposal, has better information than Joe Schmoe.

[Dynamist]

Phil: What more can a city do that declare mandatory evacuation? Nagin would have had to call for Guard help to force people out before the storm hit. That's simply not possible. If you live in a hurricane zone, you have to know that "mandatory" is waay more serious than a suggestion, and when the storm on TV covers half the Gulf, that also has to be a hint that this is not a time to "ride it out".

If the people actually had followed the order and the plan, and also not shit in their own hair while waiting for rescue, you'ld have much less to carp about. How do you plan to save people who refuse to cooperate with the prevention and rescue?

[DB]

Certainly the government, with NOAA and the NHC at its disposal, has better information than Joe Schmoe.

But Joe Schmoe has far better ability to get Joe Schmoe out of danger in the days before the storm hits. FEMA has substantial resources at its disposal, but they don't even come close to equalling the resources of a million informed people acting in their own self-interest.

[Phil]

Dynamist, DB, the city government didn't even send a single bus or ambulance or truck or panel van, anywhere. Not even to the hospitals. Not even to the retirement facilities. Not even to the jails. Not one.

Keep beating that drum, keep sounding that talking point.

Nagin would have had to call for Guard help to force people out before the storm hit. That's simply not possible.

Oh, well, if we're just declaring it "not possible" by assertion, I guess that settles it.