Iraqi Election: Raw Power, by the Stooges?
The proof of an election for the future of both Iraq and the U.S. might not be so much in the turnout as in the inherent legitimacy of the process, and of course, the results. The Toronto Sun's Eric Margolis isn't impressed, no matter what the turnout might end up being:
[N]o election held under a foreign military occupation resulting from an unjustified war is legal under international law. During the Cold War, elections staged by the Soviets after invading Afghanistan, Hungary and Czechoslovakia were rightly denounced by the U.S. as "frauds" and the leaders elected as "stooges."…..
For now, Iraq's real government will continue to be the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, the world's largest, and 150,000 U.S. occupation troops.
Every important Iraqi ministry is run by U.S. "advisers" who call the shots and allocate all spending. Power comes from guns and money. The U.S. controls and pays Iraq's low-morale police and native troops who, in a nation with 70% unemployment, mostly serve to feed families.
A "Muslim-lite" turbanless Shiite regime allied to Washington will immediately have to face Kurdish secessionists and Sunni insurgents. Younger, more nationalistic Shiites with connections to Tehran will try to oust the "quietist" collaborationist Sistani faction once Shiites are firmly in power. More, rather than less, violence is likely, with Sistani a prime bomb target.
Iraq, like Humpty Dumpty, is broken and may never be put together….
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Sometimes I hope the rapture as described in the Left Behind novels actually does occur, just to see how the leftists spin it.
Wow, it's been a full year and a half since we invaded Iraq and still the Iraqis don't have self-rule. The war must have been a total waste then. I'm not impressed by his faulty reasoning; are you? Or are you just trolling for comments? 🙂
The halfheartedly funny thing is, the election didn't elect the people who will run the country, it elected the people who will draft the constitution by which the country will be run, without the U.S. Is that what the Soviets did, too?
Troublesome details.
[N]o election held under a foreign military occupation resulting from an unjustified war is legal under international law.
OK, I'll grant for the sake of argument that having US troops throwout a truly illegitimate government and provide essential security services constitutes "foreign military occupation."
However, he starts to lose me at "unjustified war," but that is an issue on which reasonable people can disagree. When he links whether the war was justified or not to the "legality" of the elections under "international law", well, he's gone right off the reservation, there.
I will posit that there is not one single treaty or other artifact of international law that states that an election is illegal if it is held under occupation after an unjustified war. In short, Margolis begins his essay with a bald-faced lie.
His conclusions may be glum, but please show me where his facts are wrong. Remember what happened in Iran when the CIA installed the Shah as ruler.
"A "Muslim-lite" turbanless Shiite regime" Why didn't the guy just cut the chase and call them all towelheads? All them Arabs (emphasis on the long A) wear turbins and can't trust the ones that don't. What a clown.
Gasp! against international law? We better run before the world police start to... i mean... oh. Right. They dont actually DO anything.
Oh, and if the rapture took place?....You'd see Falwell and his kin looking around stupidly wondering where all the "leftist" christians had run off to.
There is nothing international law that says that an election run by an occupation is per se illegal. Further, there is nothing to indicate that we are putting in the Iraqi government in the same way we put in the Shah of Iran. We dont' know who won these elections yet, so it seems a bit early to dismiss the winners as American stooges. More importantly, it is completely insulting to the millions of Iraqis who risked their lives to vote to say that whoever they elect is going to be an American stooge. The attack on Sistani is especially viel. Sistani is one of the great hopes of the Muslim world. Not only is he a real Islamic scholar and holy man but also he is one who belives there can be fair, democratic government conistent with Islamic principles. He also is thinking of the future rather than settle scores and get revenge against the Sunis. He is a great man. It is a shame to see him slandered by someone of this guy's ilk.
Holy gross invective batman!
please show me where his facts are wrong.
This: no election held under a foreign military occupation resulting from an unjustified war is legal under international law is opinion not fact. This: He is abetting at least temporary U.S. occupation and exploitation of oil-rich Iraq in exchange for Washington handing power to his fellow "good" Shiites -- not to be confused with Iran's "bad" Shiites, who are facing U.S.-Israeli attack. is also opinion, not fact. It's an opinion piece, and shrill enough to be of value only to those who already agree with him. It's not about facts being wrong, but about presenting opinion and allowing the reader to take them as fact. He seems much more angry than eager to report facts; as such there is no reason to put any stock in his piece. It might as well be a letter to the Metro editor for all its greater value to an analytical reader.
We'll know for sure real freedom has dawned in Iraq when Baghdad orders U.S. troops out
No word yet on when we're leaving Germany, Japan, or Italy, nor how more free they will be as a result.
and renews support for the Palestinian cause.
In other words, they'll be free if they espouse the causes that we enlightened lefties want them to. Touching.
Towelhead is too respectful. Niggers are niggers, and sand niggers are no different. They lack the natural capacity to recognize what is best for them and must be lorded over as children by those us endowed by the Creator with the genetic resources to understand the situation. The Soviets failed because the Slavic people are not among the chosen.
Racist points out one important thing. You can't tell the moonbats from the left from the wackos from right anymore. Its one big redneck world.
Wow.
Is this assessment any further off-base than the rosy picture painted for us by Rumsfield and Wolfowitz? Maybe I missed the pictures of people standing on the outskirts of Baghdad with flowers and chocolate for our troops.
"Rumsfeld," sorry.
You did SPD. Go look at the enormous numbers of blogs run by soldiers in Iraq and read their stories that don't get into the MSM. There are a lot more Iraqis who are glad we are there than get reported. Just becuase you can pull off one car bomb a day in a country of 63 million people does not mean you are supported by a majority of the people.
Speaking of stooges - "Terrorists used a disabled child as a suicide bomber on election day, Iraqi interior minister Falah al-Naqib said today.
In all, 44 people were killed in a total of 38 bomb attacks on polling stations. Police at the scene of one the Baghdad blasts said the bomber appeared to have Down's syndrome."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16278831
I love how everything that offends the left isn't just bad, but "illegal." I'm sure our post-war occupation of Japan and Germany violated the laws of those countries, too.
But they are the resistence Iggy. Don't you understand man? They are fighting agaisnt the globocapitalist machine. I bet that kid was part of the imperialistic explotation machine just like those little Eichman's who died on 9-11. He had it coming and if he didn't, he ought to be thankful he died trying save the oppressed.
There are a lot more Iraqis who are glad we are there than get reported.
True, there might be more, but do you think it's a vast majority? I'm not there yet.
As for reporting it, you'd think the Bush administration would have figured out a way to... oh, I don't know... pay reporters to get the story out, or something.
I don't think the Iraqis have to love us. Allthey have to do is have a just government that is too their liking and doesn't threaten its neighbors. If they do that, they can play France and run us down all they want. I am sure they want us out of their country, but they also don't want the Baathists back and are glad to see Saddam gone, unlike most of the left who are still sorry to see him go.
I for one advocate apathy in the face of pro and anti-war commentary. 🙂
unlike most of the left who are still sorry to see him go.
I hear lines like this on Fox News Channel all the time. Why is opposition to invading a country that was not an immediate threat to us tantamount to supporting Saddam Hussein's regime?
This argument smacks of that odious bit of Bushian logic, "You're either with us or the terrorists."
Are the same Iraqis who want us out of their country the same ones who are glad we're there?
SPD, pretty much. The Iraqis who are shooting as us are the ones who lived well under Saddam and are sad to see him go. Just because he was a murdurous lunatic doesn't mean a lot of people didn't benifit from him being in power. Those people are left now out of power, dispised by the majority Shias and Kurds and see no choice but to start shooting. This is not a nationalistic insurgency. They have no idealogy to speak of. They are just foreign jhihadists and left over gangsters from the Saddam era.
John,
That's not entirely correct. Some of the insurgents - according to sources in the U.S. military - are simply Pissed Off Iraqis (POIs) after all. Accordingly there are at least three elements involved in the fighting.
The ones who are pissed off, were the ones who did well under Saddam. I think there is also an element of adventurism to it. If I were an unemployed Iraqi male and someone offered me a fortune to shoot at U.S. soldiers I might do it. When you are young, you think you are invincible anyway. Not all soldiers in any war are ideologically motivated. Some, in fact a lot, are just young men who like danger and to shoot at people.
"A "Muslim-lite" turbanless Shiite regime allied to Washington will immediately have to face Kurdish secessionists and Sunni insurgents. Younger, more nationalistic Shiites with connections to Tehran will try to oust the "quietist" collaborationist Sistani faction once Shiites are firmly in power. More, rather than less, violence is likely, with Sistani a prime bomb target."
I don't think neoconservative propaganda victims have the vocabulary to understand this observation; it's too--what's that word again?--practical.
There's actually 4 Garry, you forgot the mentally challenged.
This is the old unilateralism issue again. The point isn't over some random concern for international legalism when it comes to ousting "bad" regimes. The point is the precedent we are setting by acting out an extrajudicial regime change. That precedent is, simply put: might makes right. It's ok, but only if we do it.
Not only was there no legal reasoning, there was no honest open reasoning at all involving the justification for regime change. If we make up the rules as we go along, we make important international cooperation in the future more difficult.
"The ones who are pissed off, were the ones who did well under Saddam."
Well, that's that, then, right? Not quite. Don't you think you might be a little "pissed off" if your family was killed by an errant missile strike, or if your parents were gunned down at a checkpoint while you watched because they were mistaken for insurgents?
And I'm not talking about a few stragglers here and there. Conservative estimates place the civilian death toll well above 10,000. Multiply that by the number of surviving male family members, and add that to the aforementioned "saddam-era gangsters", and it's no trivial figure.
As Balko likes to say, dead bodies don't just attract flies, they breed them as well.
Violation of ceasefire agreement.
I love how everything that offends the left isn't just bad, but "illegal."
Eric Margolis is a conservative.
Pavel
Saddam had repeatedly borken the ceasefire from the first Gulf War and violated the terms of the Security Council Resolution that authorized the use of force to enforce it. The argument is that forth was authorized under the 1991 Security Council Resolution and that to allow Saddam to ignore a resolution that authorized the use of force was to allow the Security Council to loose all credibility. Bill Clinton used the same justification to launch operation Desert Fox in 1998. There is a legal argument. You may not like it or agree with it, but there is a colorable legal argument.
That precedent is, simply put: might makes right. It's ok, but only if we do it.
But, see, we're justified because we're killin' in the name of FREEDOM?! Didn't you hear Mr. President's inauguration speech? It's our job to democratize the globe and spread FREEDOM? into every last little hidey hole on the planet (at the cost of American blood & wealth, of course). Personally, I can't wait for the DemoCrusaders to move on to the next democracy-in-waiting hellhole and smack them down with the Big Stick O' Freedom?!
John:
That's fine. Let UNSC lose all credibility. The UN holds no credibility in my book to begin with.
However, I was under the impression that it was not the duty of the United States of America to enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions (heh, especially against the wishes of the SC itself). Was I wrong?
Yes. All member states in the UN have a duty to enforce Secutiry Council Resolutions. The issue is was that Resolution superceeded by events. Did we need another one? Probably so. I am disturbed about the precident of invading Iraq without a new resoltion. I would have much prefered that the world gotten together like they did in 1991 and taken action. But unfortuenatly, the Europeans were too busy making billions off of oil for food to really care.
Jesse Walker says, "Eric Margolis is a conservative."
Not no more, he isn't. You gotta realize, "conservative" means "toeing the GOP line". If you're against the war, and/or against neocon-imperialism, then you're a flag-burning peacenik hippie lefty. End of discussion.
See how much easier everything is when you dismiss that with which you do not agree as "liberal" or "rightwing"?
Jesse Walker says, "Eric Margolis is a conservative."
Not no more, he isn't. You gotta realize, "conservative" means "toeing the GOP line". If you're against the war, and/or against neocon-imperialism, then you're a flag-burning peacenik hippie lefty. End of discussion.
See how much easier everything is when you dismiss that with which you do not agree as "liberal" or "rightwing"?
As a card carrying member of the NeoCon conspiracy I say, Damn Straight Even Williams.
I actually took the time to read the article. He's dead wrong about almost everything he said, both literally and figuratively, but he's right about the purported election not making Iraq a free country and not making it a democracy and about how Sistani gets a lot more respect than he deserves.
Sistanti's just like any other Islamofascist, pro- or anti-occupation, in that he uses his influence to motivate his cultlike followers to force their own version of Islam on the rest of Iraq's population.
Evan Williams I mean
Mr X,
If Sistani is an Islamofacist, then 90% of the Muslims in the world are Islamofacists. I read the article too. His attack on Sistani is crap. It basically boils down to he is a towelhead muslim and we can't trust any of them so screw them all. I am not surprised this guy is a conservative. The, Arabs are all animals anyway line of reasoning, is the wacko right's answer to the moonbat left's "al quada is a resistence movement" line of reasoning.
When they write the new Iraqi Constitution, would anyone like to wager that the official religion embedded in the Constitution will be Islam? I'd also be willing to bet that the Sharia laws will likely be incorporated as well. If you remember when the new Iraqi flag was unveiled a few months ago, it incorporated Islamic symbolism, because as we all know from the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, relying on religion is a great way to solve political issues.
I'm no Islamic scholar, so I have no idea how compatible its rules and laws are with individual liberty and rights, and promoting democracy, as John at 3:12PM above refers to regarding Sistani. Maybe there were periods in recorded history where Islam was compatible with these values, but I sure don't see it in the majority of the Islamic world today.
I don't think the First Amendment of the Iraqui Constitution is going to allude to freedom of/from religion, and I don't think 150k US soldiers (and millions of US taxpayers who have forcibly subsidized the war) are going to be all that happy that their efforts are for "liberating" a country so that it can then establish Islam as its official religion.
I hope I'm wrong on all accounts and would be happy to lose this particular $1 wager.
JJB,
If the Iraqis want to have an Islamic state why can't they? I don't beleive that the existence of an Islamic state is per se a threat to us. Indonesia is an Islamic state and it seems to do okay in the world. I don't think we should try to make Iraq into America, just a responsible member of the world community and that can take a lot of forms.
"See how much easier everything is when you dismiss that with which you do not agree as "liberal" or "rightwing"? "
Yeah
About as easy as dismissing it as "neo-con imperialism"
"I read the article too. His attack on Sistani is crap. It basically boils down to he is a towelhead muslim and we can't trust any of them so screw them all."
Were you reading it with your eyes closed?
Europeans were too busy making billions off of oil for food to really care.
Just Europeans?
http://www.johnmccrory.com/wrote.asp?this=452
If only we'd known about this. Hang on...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/15/9152/79516
==================================================
I think pro-war commentators and Bush apologists like Stephen Schwartz might want to keep the corks in those champagne bottles a little bit longer until we see how this plays out. For the benefit of the Iraqi people, who have lived under the frying-pan-to-fire transition of life under Hussein to life under foreign occupation and constant terrorist and insurgent reprisals, I hope this does lead to something positive.
But to quote the Wolf, "Let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet."
No, Matt,
He doesn't offer one piece of evidence of why Sistani is a bad guy other than the fact that he is working with the Americans. That to me just says that he is a muslim so he must have something up his sleeve.
I agree SPD. There is a long way to go in Iraq. It still may fail in the end. Even though it drives people who opposed the war, this was a huge positive step.
Even though it drives people who opposed the war crazy, this was a huge positive step.
John, you won't get an argument from me about that. It is a positive step.
What I wonder about is what will happen should the person elected not be as "pro-Western" as our government might have hoped.
Nah, we know that won't happen. Something tells me the guy the Bush administration supports will win an amazingly high majority of the votes.
Early results are coming in... already, three cities in Iraq have passed a resolution banning gay marriage. Isn't democracy beautiful?
Unforunately even the most ardent believer in the war must admit that it is positive step number 5,000 in the list of 100,000 positive things that have to occur for Iraq to be a free, proporous nation.
I don't think the Islamofacists will have much of a problem supporting the protection of marriage amendment.
John, easy on the BS, you are making the hawks look bad.
John:
"Just becuase you can pull off one car bomb a day in a country of 63 million people does not mean you are supported by a majority of the people."
From The CIA Factbook:
Iraq's Population:
25,374,691 (July 2004 est.)
John:
"This is not a nationalistic insurgency. They have no idealogy to speak of. They are just foreign jhihadists and left over gangsters from the Saddam era."
This bullshit has been debunked many times. See for example:
http://www.mail-archive.com/sam11@erols.com/msg00414.html
"American commanders said
their best estimates of the proportion of foreigners among their enemies is
about 5%."
"Something tells me the guy the Bush administration supports will win an amazingly high majority of the votes."
First, this election was not for president, it was for 275 spots on the assembly, so "the guy the Bush administration supports" better be one hell of an politician. Now you may have meant the parties that BushCo supports, or you may be looking ahead to the Pres election in 12/2005 or so. Problem is, you are non-specific. Give us a name, Allawi, Chalabi, Sistani, some one.
My prediction is that anyone who gathers a lot of votes and doesn't proceed to call for Jihad on US troops will be said retroactively to be one of BushCo's favorites and therefore a plant by a whole host of people who are adept at retroactive prognostications.
I've yet to read the article, but Sistani is the best chance we've got. He's revered by the Shiite population there and he's the reason there's currently a Shiite coalition. Last week he ok'd the goal of a more secular government (no clerics allowed). So there's some reason for cautious optimism.
Sistani is also considered more moderate than the mullahs who run Iran.
That being said, the presence of Sharia laws wound up in the Afghan constitution, so that might happen here as well.
I've yet to read the article, but Sistani is the best chance we've got. He's revered by the Shiite population there and he's the reason there's currently a Shiite coalition. Last week he ok'd the goal of a more secular government (no clerics allowed). So there's some reason for cautious optimism.
Sistani is also considered more moderate than the mullahs who run Iran.
That being said, the presence of Sharia laws wound up in the Afghan constitution, so that might happen here as well.
A, you are full of Bull shit. Just because they are Iraqis doesn't mean they are nationalists. Fallujah and Ramadi have always been rebel cities. Saddam didnt' control them very well. The insurgents are basically gangsters. They have no ideology or plan for Iraq like communism say. They have nothing except the desire to rule by force and terrorize the Iraqi people.
Oops.
A post so nice, you see it twice.
My bad on the specifics. I should have reserved my statement for December. But I just couldn't wait, gleefully pessimistic leftist that I am!
Give us a name, Allawi, Chalabi, Sistani, some one.
Eh, those are all pretty good ones. Is Chalabi even considered credible any more?
My prediction is that anyone who gathers a lot of votes and doesn't proceed to call for Jihad on US troops will be said retroactively to be one of BushCo's favorites and therefore a plant by a whole host of people who are adept at retroactive prognostications.
I know, I know. And all because we bombed the crap out of them, because we decided all by ourselves that it was time for this movement to happen. Ingrates.
"If the Iraqis want to have an Islamic state why can't they? I don't beleive that the existence of an Islamic state is per se a threat to us."
It goes back to the justifications for the war.
We invaded Iraq to protect America from WMD and state sponsored terror--not to create two new fundamentalist Islamic states, one loosely allied with Iran and the other rife with Al Qaeda.
...If we end up with two new state sponsors of terror, each presenting a direct threat to the civilians of the United States, then it will be painfully obvious to all but the most obtuse that invading Iraq was profoundly stupid.
"My bad on the specifics. I should have reserved my statement for December. But I just couldn't wait, gleefully pessimistic leftist that I am!"
S'ok, though I'm not sure what your auto-name calling is supposed to mean.
"Eh, those are all pretty good ones. Is Chalabi even considered credible any more?"
No fair picking every Iraqi mentioned is going to be a Bush crony if elected. Allawi and Sistani are far different. Which would the US prefer be elcted in late '05? Come on, that's almost too easy. As for Chalabi, that would depend on who you ask. But he's a fav to win a spot on the assembly, despite the fact that Allawi keeps threatening to have him locked up. Again, no fair trying to cover all bases, who is the person that BushCo will rig the elections to get in place? If you can't come up with an answer before some one is elected pres, then it's not really much of a prediction
"I know, I know. And all because we bombed the crap out of them, because we decided all by ourselves that it was time for this movement to happen. Ingrates."
I'm not really sure why you said this or what it pertains to, so I'll leave it be.
Ken Shultz,
That is about the most racist thing I have ever heard. Just because its an islamic state does not mean that it will support terror and Al Quada. There is such a thing as a peaceful Islamic state. An Islamic Party rules Turkey and it is not a terroist state, neither is Indonesia or Morococo or Jordan.
Again, no fair trying to cover all bases, who is the person that BushCo will rig the elections to get in place? If you can't come up with an answer before some one is elected pres, then it's not really much of a prediction
Whoa, friend. Turn off your sarcasm filter!
Sure, soon as you make a pick. No fun playing with generics.
Considering the bad press Chalabi has received, I can't see the Bush administration backing him. Sistani is probably their safest bet.
"That is about the most racist thing I have ever heard. Just because its an islamic state does not mean that it will support terror and Al Quada. There is such a thing as a peaceful Islamic state. An Islamic Party rules Turkey and it is not a terroist state, neither is Indonesia or Morococo or Jordan."
There's nothing racist about pointing out that a large number of Shiites want a fundamentalist state--according to Zogby on the radio last night--,and there's nothing racist about pointing out that the area where Sunni Arabs are predominant is rife with al Qaeda.
...There's nothing racist about that at all.
But it doesn't surprise me to be called racist by a neoconservative propaganda victim--I've been called an America-Hater and a supporter of terrorists for being against the war too.
Ken,
I am not saying they don't want an Islamic state. I am saying that your assumption that would automatically support terror and be the equivilent of the Iran and the Taliban is racist. It just shows that you think just because something is Islamic that its automatically associated with terrorism. That is really what the argument agaisnt the war comes down to. The arabs and muslims are all a bunch terrorists and we need strong men like Saddam keeping them in line because if we let them vote, they will create an Islamic state that will support terrorism.
...Correction!
I was called a supporter of terrorists because I came out against torture--not because I was against the war.
John,
I've read the article 3 times and I fail to see where Margolis calls Sistani the equivalent of a "bad guy."
"That is about the most racist thing I have ever heard."
It's funny to here conservatives running around saying stuff like this.
Sistani made what some see as a pact with the devil. He is abetting at least temporary U.S. occupation and exploitation of oil-rich Iraq in exchange for Washington handing power to his fellow "good" Shiites -- not to be confused with Iran's "bad" Shiites, who are facing U.S.-Israeli attack. "Good" Shiites don't sport turbans; they sideline clerics and avoid angry Islamic mutterings
That to me, Matt looks like he is saying Sistani is only cooperating with the Americans so he can later create another Iran. That makes him a bad guy. And oh yeah, liberals are never racist as they tell us how the Arabs are unfit for democracy.
No...
I'm saying that people who want to form an islamic state and want to affiliate themselves with a state sponser of terror like Iran want to form a islamic state and affiliate themselves with a state sponser of terror like Iran. You're making the next jump all by yourself.
I assume you're just dropping the argument about the Sunni areas being rife with Al Qaeda?
P.S. I can see why you'd make this jump. You'd rather call people racist than face the fact that the Bush Administration by invading Iraq put American civilians in greater danger of a terrorist attack than they were before the Bush Administration invaded Iraq.
How does the Shias taking over Iraq make the Sunni areas rife with Al Queda any worse? Are you saying that they will not fight Al Quada? If so, aren't you really saying they are all a bunch of terrorists? If Saddam was so unfriendly to terrorist, why did people like Abu Abbas and Ramsey Yusef go there for protection and shelter?
Say John, did you support the War on Poverty, or were you an active supporter of malnutrition?
Are you a big supporter of the War on Drugs, or were you sorry to see Pablo Escobar killed?
I've heard that you can be opposed to something, and still not want to see a half baked plan implemented in a half assed manner by the government in an attempt to solve that problem.
But like you, I'm not buying it.
John,
Did you read further down?
"A "Muslim-lite" turbanless Shiite regime allied to Washington will immediately have to face Kurdish secessionists and Sunni insurgents. Younger, more nationalistic Shiites with connections to Tehran will try to oust the "quietist" collaborationist Sistani faction once Shiites are firmly in power. More, rather than less, violence is likely, with Sistani a prime bomb target."
How does the Shias taking over Iraq make the Sunni areas rife with Al Queda any worse? Are you saying that they will not fight Al Quada? If so, aren't you really saying they are all a bunch of terrorists? If Saddam was so unfriendly to terrorist, why did people like Abu Abbas and Ramsey Yusef go there for protection and shelter?
Rather than trying to untangle that weird knot, let's go back to your original observation:
"If the Iraqis want to have an Islamic state why can't they? I don't beleive that the existence of an Islamic state is per se a threat to us."
It is possible to suspect that a fundamentalist Islamic state affiliated with a state sponser of terror like Iran--a state with nuclear ambitions might I add--may present a terrorist threat to America without being racist.
...Believe it or not, some non-racist people might also think that a Sunni mini-state rife with al Qaeda would present a terrorist threat to American civilians as well.
Indeed, if neither of the above presents a terrorist threat to America, may I ask, what does present a terrorist threat to American civilians?
P.S. Is it racist to point out that neither threat existed prior to the Bush Administration's invasion of Iraq?
Are they really directly comparing the United States to the USSR? I mean, really? That's the kind of statement that immediately stops me from taking them seriously.
"And oh yeah, liberals are never racist as they tell us how the Arabs are unfit for democracy."
So, assuming that liberals think Arabs are "unfit for democracy" (which I doubt) it's then ok to adopt those same tactics in attacking those of us who were anti-war and now anti-occupation?
OK, so "leftist" was the wrong word. Whatever he is isn't much better, though. Between "illegal" this, "unjustified" that, "oil" the other thing and the obligatory gratuitous swipe at Israel, it's obvious he's more interested in spouting his own brand of isolationism than he is in examining the situation in a remotely objective fashion. Does he really think that his opinion of the legality/justifiability of the 2003 invasion has any bearing at all on the likelihood that a democracy will take root in 2005? If not, why bring it up in this context?
Say John, did you support the War on Poverty, or were you an active supporter of malnutrition?
Are you a big supporter of the War on Drugs, or were you sorry to see Pablo Escobar killed?
Man, I'm glad anyone who opposes welfare or the war on drugs never, ever faces rhetoric like this.
"Man, I'm glad anyone who opposes welfare or the war on drugs never, ever faces rhetoric like this."
I've seen rhetoric like that leveled at people who oppose the war on poverty and people who oppose the war on drugs, but I've never seen rhetoric like that leveled at anyone from joe.
Ehn, I've seen plenty of "you're not willing to have the government do X, so you libertarians just don't care if people suffer Y" from Joe, just not put so crudely as that rhetoric.
I think France can now sue Canada for trademark infringement in regards to their America hating.
Regarding Amerikan Empire, so, when politics crosses a border that empirialism right? Isn't the idea of capital a politic?
Boy, English Composition standards must have really fallen at Whatsamatta U.
Kevin
"That is about the most racist thing I have ever heard."
You're very fortunate then, John. The most racist thing I ever heard was about an EMT who would help white people at an accident scene before black people, regardless of their relative condition, on the theory of "Fuck the niggers." Given the sheltered existence you've been living, your highly acute sensitivity makes sense.
"Just because its an islamic state does not mean that it will support terror and Al Quada. There is such a thing as a peaceful Islamic state. An Islamic Party rules Turkey and it is not a terroist state, neither is Indonesia or Morococo or Jordan."
It was my understanding that the lack of democratic governance, social development, and individual freedom under these regimes, rather than active support for terror groups, was the root cause of international terror and jihad.
As a matter of fact, with the WMD claim disproven (and nobody really buying the claim that George Bush was determined to defend the honor of the United Nations), the need to ignite the "flame of democracy" to burn such tyrants is the sole remaining justification for the invasion.
"Ehn, I've seen plenty of "you're not willing to have the government do X, so you libertarians just don't care if people suffer Y" from Joe, just not put so crudely as that rhetoric."
I have no doubt you've seen such rhetoric in my posts. I haven't actually written anything along those lines, but I have no doubt you've seen it.
It was my understanding that the lack of democratic governance...
Mathematically it doesn't work. al Qaeda and the like represent a minority of the global population so small as to be a point mass. They are philosophically opposed to "democracy" and "freedom". A government that increases those characteristics would anger the opposition. It is unlikely that the point mass would be swallowed in that paradigm shift (did the nearly unanimous passing of PATRIOT endear any of us to it?). Those characteristics present in all nearby governments would ostensibly reduce the likelihood that any one individual would in the future wind up in a group like al Qaeda, having many more secular alternatives to such blind pursuits, but it does not necessarily follow that presently the existence or persistence of al Qaeda can be attributed to a lack of fully formed democracies. The prevailing philosophies in the region are still only tenuously compatible with secular humanism, which is essential to release the government from the grip of the mullah. If democracies were rampantly unleashed on the region earlier -- say, immediately following the fall of the turks -- the largely isolated region would have collapsed into a cesspool of infighting and civil war.
The root cause of jihad is that they think they have something to fight for, and a mechanism by which to achieve it. The goal arises from their superstitions, and the mechanism from the lack of importance they place on human life vis-a-vis the establishment of the Caliphate (it is worth all human life to them). Jihad is similar in justification, execution, and overall error as the Crusades. In a hundred years or so, the people of the Middle East will no doubt have learned this to a more significant degree than now.
That having been said, I think OBL is motivated largely by his personal pride, not Allah. He wants to return to Saudi Arabia the hero who restored taqfir to Saudi Arabian society, and the seat of the caliphate to Medina.
I have no doubt you've seen such rhetoric in my posts. I haven't actually written anything along those lines, but I have no doubt you've seen it.
You're either misreading what I wrote or misremembering what you wrote. Either way, not my problem, Joe.