Having a Good Time, Limbaugh-Style

Another Abu Ghraib story:

U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair's personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday.

The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true….

The abuse occurred last year in Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison and at another coalition detention center, Clwyd said.

"She was held for about six weeks without charge," the envoy told Wednesday's Evening Standard newspaper. "During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey. A harness was put on her, and an American rode on her back."

Clwyd said the woman has recovered physically but remains traumatized.

Before this, Clwyd was better known for her reports on Saddam's human rights abuses.

Meanwhile, Rush Limbaugh weighs in on the scandal:

This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer 'em because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time. These people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?

[Both stories via Josh Marshall.]

Comments

[Rush Limbaugh]

then we are going to really hammer 'em because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time. These people, you ever heard of emotional release?

Poor Rush. His brain is so addled from all those meds that he can't even tell if he's on the radio or on the witness stand at his trial.

[jack]

Don't hold Rush accountable, he was high when he said it.

[Jennifer]

Which is worse--the idea that Rush believes what he says, or the thought that he's just saying this garbage because he knows that's what his audience wants to hear?

[jon]

If Rush is advocating that such things are no big deal, I think a number of letters to the FCC --detailing his advocacy of sodomy, rape, pornography, and other forms of sexual abuse-- is in order.

He's worse than Stern and Oprah combined!

[Joe L.]

"It's good to listen to the moron every once in a while to guage the 'moral turpitude' (sp?) quotient of Rush and his dittosheep."

Dittosheep=teh funnay, still ought to have gone with The Sheeple...

Unlike THIS board which is FULL of non-conformists. Man, I can NEVER tell what Jennifer or Rick Barton are going think about a given subject.

No sirreee, this place it's totally unpredictable. No party lines here.

Oh and good use of "Chickenhawk". Now you of course were a Ranger, so you can have an opinion on war, right? After all unless you have done something you can have no opinion on it, right? Only those who have run a government can comment on government operations and outrages, right? Oh hold it, that might not be the case, at least THESE parts about.

So, if we poll all the soldiers and ex-soldiers and a majority of them support the war in Iraq, all the protestors will shut up? After all the war hawks will have spoken, the experts who can have an opinion?

[Jennifer]

Not to point out the obvious, but fraternity initiates voluntarily expose themselves to such abuse, whereas the Iraqis didn't. Dismissing this by comparing it to frat-rats is like dismissing rape by comparing it to sex.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I'm sick of all this Rush-bashing. Give the guy a break. Don't you know that his brain is ravaged by mental retardation coupled with a mind-melting drug habit that is not remotely his fault? He only has two choices: preach to other retards for millions of dollars or collect welfare. Which would you choose? Back off!

[Jennifer]

Joe. L.--
Would you feel less contemptuous if me and Rick Barton said "Hooray for the Americans of Abu Ghraib?" I ask only because it bothers me, seeing a grown man behave like a misogynist's parody of a woman with PMS.

[wellfellow]

Jennifer,

Good analogy, I've used it myself.

[Pavel]

Ooops. Sometimes I hate him so much, I become him.

[Joe L]

My contempt, Jennifer, is for dittosheep comment and chickenhawk comment. With you I have disagreement, not contempt... You are flagrantly wrong, on a host of issues, but I really don't despise you. I just get a little tired of the "sheeple"-type talk... "I'm a SOPHISTICATE. I think for myself. I'm not of the Hoi-Polloi" Yeah well whatever.

[Doc]

Another GDI (goddamn independent) bashing the fraternity system. 😉 He probably meant that s&b crack for Kerry forgetting that Bush was also one.

Pop another oxycontin Rush and mellow out!

[Jennifer]

Joe L.-
If you can find even one example of my using the language for which you have berated me, I would be very interested in reading it.

[Eric]

"This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation"

Sadly, I couldn't help but laugh out loud upon reading that line. Comments like those are so self-parodying that they breed a sort of cognitive dissonance about the seriousness of the subject matter that they touch upon.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Yeah, Joe L., I was indeed a Ranger at one point of my life. And I kept having my picnic basket stolen by a bear that doesn't wear pants.

[Jennifer]

By the way, wasn't the term 'dittoheads' invented by Rush himself, and used by his followers as a statement of pride? Not unlike those fundamentalist Christians who proudly gloat, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me!"

[matt]

Franken had it right....Rush Limbaugh is a big, fat idiot.

[Abu Ghraib Guard]

I say we strip Rush naked, put a saddle on his back, and ride the fat donkey off a cliff. They do this in fraternities, I swear. Its just for a little emotional release; you know, to blow off some steam.

And I don't mind volunteering for it.

[Jennifer]

Matt-
Actually, Rush has slimmed down into a lithe, trim idiot. His drug use had at least one concrete benefit.

Since, tomorrow, I start a new job as a copyeditor, let me get in a little practice now:

Mr. Nice Guy, it's not "picnic" basket, it's "pic-a-nic" basket.

Joe L.--It is not correct to say "THE hoi polloi," but simply "hoi polloi." The words are Greek for "the people," so saying "THE hoi polloi" translates into "THE THE people." (I myself am NOT hoi polloi, which is why I know this.)

[james]

Maybe Rush is just looking forward to his own jail time, when he can blame someone else for his acting out his own jailhouse anal rape fantasies.

[Joe L.]

So sensitve Jennifer, but it isn't always about YOU... I was referring to "Madpad's" posting. I don't think I've accused you of saying anything. I objected to "dittosheep" BTW, not Dittoheads... as they say on Fark (and no doubt elswhere) RTFA.

Matt good point, Al Franken, he's the soul of reasoned commentary, I'd go with any day.

[james]

Maybe Rush is just looking forward to his own jail time, when he can blame someone else for his acting out his own jailhouse anal rape fantasies.

[Jennifer]

Joe-
Of course it's not about me, dear, but I must point out that YOU were the one to bring my name into this. If you don't want it to be about me, then don't go out of your way to make it so.

[Mo]

I dunno, the shit we did at my fraternity's initiation was about 3 orders of magnitude less than this. I would've been gone way before the sodomy parts. I guess pledging at Upsilon Sigma Alpha is a bit more rough.

OTOH, the stuff that goes on in prisons is about as bad as this (mostly treatment from other inmates), so Rush may have a chance to see just how bad this is.Maybe we could chip in and send a chemical light stick and a broomstick to his bunkmate in a car package, so Mr. Limbaugh can experience this firsthand. It'll sure hurt more than that boil. 🙂

Joe L.: I don't think Jennifer's consistency on views means she's necesasarily a conformist (after a while, you can guess pretty much what any of the regulars will say). In fairness to Jennifer, the fact that they call themselves dittoheads (which implies blind agreeance) pretty much leaves them open to criticism for being sheeple, dittosheep or whatever the new hip term for followers is.

[Joe L.]

I didn't insult you Jennifer, I said you were predictable. I was insulting Madpad. You were merely the example. So it isn't about you... unless you like the dittosheep and chickenhawk phrase, then it can be about you.

[Jennifer]

Mo-
Merci. The hell of it is, there's no way to win: if your views remain consistent, you're a conformist; if your views change, you're a flip-flopping waffler. I think the only way out of this mess is to limit all postings to "I agree with what Joe L. said."

[shanep]

Seeing how most of the pictures feature broads, I think it's more of a sorority thing than frat.

These chicks scare me.

And I thought I knew all there was to know about Kama Sutra.

[parse]

If this is no worse than the stuff that goes on at Skull & Bones initiations, I want to see the photo of George Bush simulating fellatio on John Kerry.

[Jennifer]

Just thought of an analogy: Rush's fans proudly brag about being "dittoheads" and letting Rush do their thinking for them, yet get offended when people insult them for being mindless drones who won't think for themselves. Isn't that like a woman with silicone-injected double-Z-cup breasts, who wears low-cut tops and then gets offended because men all focus on her cleavage rather than respect her for her mind?

[anonymous for obvious reasons]

I belong to a society similar to Skull and Bones at a different university. Limbaugh clearly has no idea what goes on at secret society initiations. Maybe he should join one before he talks about it (that is, if he can find one that will accept him).

Then again, we who rule the world would be happier if he not join our secret ranks 🙂

[matt]

JoeL.,

If you're looking for "reasoned" commentary I wouldn't chose either. But then again Franken (to my knowlegde) has never condoned the torturing of old women.

[Mo]

parse: High-lairious. At my fraternity, it';s accepted that if you are initiated before someone, you can call them "pledge" out of disrespect and it remains kosher. I wonder if it works like that at S&B. I think it would be hillarious to see Kerry pull rank on him solely on the virtue of an earlier initiation.

How do Kerry and Bush not know each other from school, as they claim, aren't the Bonesmen pretty close, wasn't there an overlap of a year or two when they were members? I'm still good buddies with people that were seniors my freshman year and vice versa.

[David Gaw]

This was a dumb thing for Limbaugh to say, but I rather suspect he was just trying to annoy you. Well done, playing into it. As to his more serious point--that the situation is being talked up by those who oppose the president in a transparent effort to reap political advantage--he's correct.

It's interesting to note that for all the indignation over Limbaugh's comment, if it were up to those that against the war, true attrocities would be happening to this day in Abu Ghraib as a matter of ongoing policy, and nobody would be talking about it. Instead, these acts have been condemned, and those responsible will be investigated and punished.

[Joe L.]

NOW, you're making sense, Jennifer. Agreeing with me is good and correct, at least 75% of the time.

And no being unchanging in your opinion is NOT conformist. When your opinion mirrors the opinion of 90% of the posters, then it becomes SUSPECT as conformism.

I'm a Libertarian-Conservative Republican. My opinions are constant, but not in conformity with a large percentage of the posters on this board. I am constant, unchanging, but not conformist.

I don't know if you're a conformist, bending to the general tenor of the venue or if you have found a coven of the like-minded, but constancy and conformist are not synonymous

[Joe L.]

Good point Matt... I will quibble and say I don't buy the old ladies story, but you make an excellent point.

However, that may be, I still wouldn't whip Al Franken out to lambaste anyone. Adolf Hitler pointed out the evils of Communism and extolled European integration, but I wouldn't exactly think of him as a great person to quote on either issue..

[madpad]

Joe L.

Wow, I sure must have hit a nerve with you to earn your contempt.

No, I don't think that one has to have served in the military to comment on it. I have not served nor have most Americans.

I DO, however, find myself suspicious of people who have never served taking extremely aggressive policy positions that involve military force. Especially ones that are long on ideology and short on consideration for the downside or the human cost.

I am also suspicious of non-military types who demand we rush (no pun intended) headlong into war while rejecting the experience of those who have been in war. Rush has made a practice of denigrating otherwise honorable soldiers and former soldiers who have chosen to disagree publicly with the Bush administration.

Rush is a smart marketer of opinion who has rallied a huge market of individuals. But he has done so often at the expense of the truth, good sense and rational policy aims in his bid for radio market share.

He has neither the qualifications or the judgement to influence so strongly decisions that have so much hanging in the balance. But influence he has.

Sure, he has a right to his opinion and (thank God) he has a right to say it - to as many people will listen.

Calling him a 'chickenhawk' is my small voice chipping away at his lofty and dubious position, and for me, the shoe fits.

If you disagree, that's cool, although contempt, I think, is a bit strong.

As for "dittosheep'...yeesh, lighten up, will ya?

[Howard Beale]

http://tinyurl.com/26ryh

Above is a link to the Google cache of the weblog of Joe Ryan, a CACI Interrogator who works at Abu Ghraib. I like the part about his shirt stain.

[Evan Williams]

Here's my question for Rush:

Was it OK for Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, et al., to do what they did, because, as you said, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time. These people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?

Because, you know, Rush, it works both ways, pal. You can't honestly say "when Americans torture, rape, humiliate, and murder Iraqis, they're just blowing off steam, havin' a little fun! But when Saddam Hussein did it, he was being an evil dictator..."

Now, I'm not equating Abu Ghraib guards to Hussein or Pol Pot...but logically, Limbaugh is a bloody fool. So, when Rush and all the other idgits (such as Adam Yoshida) start making excuses for these horrible actions, start claiming that "they don't matter", or that they're ok, since Saddam was worse, we run into the obvious logical fallacy of quantitative moral relativism..."sure, I just killed 30 people, but at least I didn't kill 300, like Joe from accounting did last week!". Nor is it a sound argument that they are "letting off steam". If you're having a bad week, the boss is on your back, the bill collector's at your door, and your car just broke down...and to "let off some steam", you brutally assault a few coworkers during your lunchbreak. Does that mean that your crime is any nicer? When the officers show up, and you tell them "man, I was just stressed out", are they going to just let you walk? Of course not.

[Warren]

I'm sure Rush, Sean, and the other Red Blooded cheerleaders will be just as forgiving of the Iraqis when they do this to American POWs.

[Pavel]

Joe L.

Rush deserves all the abuse he's gotten here and more. The fact that you lambast people that ridicule him as "comformists" is rather amusing. There's about 100 different positions to attack Rush from. There's only one from which to defend him.

I will grant this. He's a master orator. He knows exactly how to go about making a completely untenable position sound as if it's held by any majority of ordinary decent Americans. I haven't heard his show on this particular issue but I can't imagine even him spinning something so offensive.

[Evan Williams]

I'm sure Rush, and the other Red Blooded cheerleaders will be just as forgiving of the Iraqis when they do this to American POWs.

Well, yeah, of course. I mean, THEY'RE being fired at every day TOO. Come on, I mean, remember when those "insurgents" burned some Americans, then strung their corpses up on a bridge? As Rush said, "...you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?"

[Joe L.]

Actually I was rather appalled at his attempted apologia, I was unhappy with and contemptuous of Madpad. Pavel, heap abuse away... Just avoid the usual attacks. So far, "Big Fat Idiot" has been an extremely good one, I thought.

[Evan Williams]

Hey, Joe,

Here's a good one: I would imagine that Rush has quite a bit of firsthand knowledge of "blowing off steam", seeing as how he releases so much hot air onto the airwaves.

[matt]

Joe,

"Adolf Hitler pointed out the evils of Communism and extolled European integration, but I wouldn't exactly think of him as a great person to quote on either issue.."

What? A Hitler analogy....geez. But, then again, does it mean Hitler was wrong about Communism?

Look, I just like the title of Franken's book, and the fact that he hasn't excused American torture of old ladies (at least as far as I know).

[Joe L.]

No Matt, quote Hitler all you want to point out the evils of Communism... As far as I know Rush Limbaugh has naver tackled anyone he disagrees with at a political rally, unlike Franken. I mean humiliating prisoners or squashing dissent, each side has their "heroes" I guess.

[Gawdamman]

Hmmmmmm........I'd wager that a majority of American's are only upset because the pictures weren't destroyed.(destroy the evidence, fools!!)
They will turn on the news tonight and see more soldiers killed, maimed or kidnapped and they'll say "fuck the humiliated Arabs".
And then......they'll watch finale of "Friends".
Any takers on this bet?

[Gawdamman]

"the" finale.......oooops

[madpad]

Joe L.

I'm wondering why my calling Rush worshipers 'dittosheep' generates more emotion from you than Mr. Nice Guy calling them 'retards'?

Why does calling him a 'chickenhawk' more worthy of contempt than calling him a 'Big Fat Idiot'?

No offense but it appears that you're cherry-picking your hot buttons and getting irrationally upset about what amounts to some pretty silly things.

[Mark S.]

Hey! How would Limbaugh know what a Skull & Bones initiation is like? He's a college drop out and didn't even go to Yale.

However, I'd love to see someone drop that quote onto one of the conspiracy kook forums just to watch all the schizophrenics with net access go nuts.

LIMBAUGH IN LEAGUE WITH BUSH-REPTILIODS!

[Jennifer]

My main question for Joe L. is "do you agree with Limbaugh's excusing the actions of the torturers? If not, then what's wrong with insulting the sheep who WILL agree with him?"

[madpad]

Jennifer,

well said and smartly done

[Douglas Fletcher]

"I start a new job as a copyeditor"

Good luck. Most of the copyeditors I've ever worked with were generally regarded by their co-workers as being partially (or in some cases entirely) insane, but hopefully* you'll be able to steer clear of the LaBrae tar pits of that profession and keep your head.

*Yeah, I know hopefully isn't a real word.

[Jennifer]

Doug-
In all seriousness, I can't help but notice that in the past few days you have directed an inordinately large number of insulting posts directly at me (as opposed to my beliefs). What gives? At first I thought it was kind of cute but now I am seriously starting to wonder about you. Did we know each other in the outside world? Are you a member of the fraternity that swore revenge on me due to the "Animal-House-was-not-a-documentary" articles I wrote for my college paper back in 1993? What gives?

[Jennifer]

Doug, again-
Of course, if that last post was meant as an honest expression of hope for my future, then fugeddaboutit.

[anudda copyeditah (and Jen. fa]

Jennifer, aren't you itching to correct Doug's post to "La Brea"? I'm sure you're too polite, though (and not getting paid to do so, either). Obviously I am not so polite. And evidently I'm insane anyway, so:

Doug, "hopefully" is indeed a word, unlike "irregardless". However, you're right that your usage of it is considered not quite correct.

[James Ard]

Judging from the number of comments on Rush Limbaugh , the guy's apparently got ya'lls goat to the point of delerium. Had any of you actually listened to the man you'd know his faculties blow yours away by a factor of ten, that's why he makes a factor of a hundred more than you ever will. This partying athiest realizes an America loving blowhard is better for us than the deadly negativity shown from you seminar morons.

[Jennifer]

James-
Please, don't fall into the "money=intelligence" trap, unless you, personally, are willing to admit that by your own standards you are far stupider than Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson. Hell, by that standard, even your own beloved Mr. Limbaugh couldn't hold a candle to the Olsen twins.

[James Ard]

The Olsen twins are pretty smart, they fooled my kids into numerous video rentals! I don't need to use the money means smart argument, you tell me where Rush is wrong about what is best for the war on terror?

[Jennifer]

James-
I don't listen to Limbaugh and haven't for years; therefore, I don't know what he has said concerning the war on terror; I only know that he said that what our soldiers did in Abu Ghraib is no worse than a fraternity hazing ritual. That statement alone is enough to suggest that, while the man may not be stupid, his moral compass has been completely de-magnetized.

[el jefe]

"Since, tomorrow, I start a new job as a copyeditor, let me get in a little practice now:"

The comma after "since" is unnecessary, by the way ...

/a former copy editor

[Jennifer]

Jefe-
Point taken. In all seriousness, the papers I deal with at work will be scrutinized with far more care than what I give these postings.

[Warren]

Hopefully not a word?? Hmmm lets see....

From Dictionary.com
Usage Note: Writers who use hopefully as a sentence adverb, as in Hopefully the measures will be adopted, should be aware that the usage is unacceptable to many critics, including a large majority of the Usage Panel. It is not easy to explain why critics dislike this use of hopefully. The use is justified by analogy to similar uses of many other adverbs, as in Mercifully, the play was brief or Frankly, I have no use for your friend. And though this use of hopefully may have been a vogue word when it first gained currency back in the early 1960s, it has long since lost any hint of jargon or pretentiousness for the general reader. The wide acceptance of the usage reflects popular recognition of its usefulness; there is no precise substitute. Someone who says Hopefully, the treaty will be ratified makes a hopeful prediction about the fate of the treaty, whereas someone who says I hope (or We hope or It is hoped) the treaty will be ratified expresses a bald statement about what is desired. Only the latter could be continued with a clause such as but it isn't likely. ?It might have been expected, then, that the initial flurry of objections to hopefully would have subsided once the usage became well established. Instead, critics appear to have become more adamant in their opposition. In the 1969 Usage Panel survey, 44 percent of the Panel approved the usage, but this dropped to 27 percent in our 1986 survey. (By contrast, 60 percent in the latter survey accepted the comparable use of mercifully in the sentence Mercifully, the game ended before the opponents could add another touchdown to the lopsided score.) It is not the use of sentence adverbs per se that bothers the Panel; rather, the specific use of hopefully in this way has become a shibboleth.

Holy Shit! Fucking Schoolmarms.

[Jennifer]

Warren-
As a former schoolmarm on the eve of a career as a professional nitpick let me say even *I* don't go that far. Ye gods.

[Joe L.]

If I might, one of Limbaugh?s problems is that his side must be right about 95% of the time, wrong only about the exact time or temperature or other minor details. His opponents, equally, must be wrong 95% of the time. Ted Kennedy, Ralph Nader, Jennifer, Jean Bart, Rick Barton can NEVER be right, except about minor things. So if Ted Kennedy says, ?Salinization of the soil in California?s Central Valley is a serious ecological and economic problem and that the US Government needs to regulate water usage? then Ted Kennedy is WRONG. Salinization is NOT a problem and regulation is only designed to damage the hard-working farmers of the Central Valley who feed the world. Limbaugh simply won?t accept that his opponents aren?t always TOTALLY wrong.

So, when Ted Kennedy, or Jean Bart or Jennifer or Rick Barton criticize the prison guards at Abu Ghraib they MUST be wrong. NOTHING bad happened. It?s a serious character flaw on Limbaugh?s part.

Now, what I will say is that we who support the War in Iraq are rather skeptical of our opponents, Ted, Ralph, Jennifer, Jean, and Rick. We note that whatever happens in Iraq it?s evidence of quagmire, disaster, arrogance, Fascism, oppression, and the answer is ?Come home.? Well, guys that tends to lessen our sympathy or tolerance of your positions. Because we simply can?t shake the idea that anything that happens is going to be proof of our need to ?come home.?

Now when David Hackworth or Norman Schwarzkopf condemn these things, in harsh terms, we nod our heads. I don?t expect them to be using any and all evidence to support their foregone conclusions.

Further, our suspicions deepen when we hear calls for Rumsfeld? resignation. Cuz? if Rummy?s gotta go I guess General Myers Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff has got to go, as well as the Army Chief of Staff, and the Secretary of the Army, and Abazaid in Centcom, and Paul Bremer in Iraq, and LTG Sanchez in Iraq as well. ?Cuz there is a vast gap between sergeants and captains misbehaving in Iraq and Rumsfeld, and if the man at the top?s gotta go, I?d reckon all the guys and gals in between gotta go, too. Only we don?t hear that. Instead, we just begin to see ?Crocodile Tears? and a quest for political advantage, not really shock and outrage.

I say this not in excuse of Limbaugh or the actions of the prison staff at Abu Ghraib, but simply to explain why we on the Right are a little leery of joining hands with Ted, Jennifer, Rick, and Jean because we don?t really see this bus ride ending at the same place.

[el jefe]

Jennifer --

Even though I haven't had a copy editing job since 1998, I've carried my AP Stylebook to every (now IT-related) position I've had since then.

And I must control the urge to correct people when they talk about "Canadian" geese ... 🙂

[zorel]

jennifer,

I have read your posts about the prisoner abuse and more or less agree that what they did was wrong, and further, I believe it cost the US a lot (in sundry collateral damage) - which may or may not be a concern for you.

I see a lot of righteous indignation all around about the behaviour of the accused (well deserved) and cheap shots about their States/ presumed background. What is the appropriate degree of punishment for their crimes?

If we put these accused to cruel death (your favourite and oft repeated preference) what would we do to those who might actually torture (you know, like pulling nails, really electricute people, etc.) prisoners as opposed to 'only' humiliating them?

[madpad]

Joe L.,

At the risk of deepening your contempt for me, are you actually saying that your hesitant to agree that soldiers abusing prisoners and being stupid enough to get their pictures taken in gleeful poses with them is wrong simply because a bunch of folks on the left ALSO think that?

Forget that just about everyone on the right EXCEPT Rush has condemned their behavior as well. Rush is actually excusing it. As the moral equivalent of a FRATERNITY PRANK.

Forget the impact it has and will have on everything we're trying to accomplish in the region. Forget that this has undermined everything the administration was worked for and increased the likelihood of an increase of terrorism in the region. You can't blame THAT on the left.

I like what Boortz said this morning. To paraphrase, 'We've taken the moral high ground and now we have to accept what goes with it. We have to be contrite precisely because it's right for a moral nation to accept responsibility for the immoral acts of it's agents.' BTW, I wouldn't exactly call Boortz a lefty.

Screw what the left thinks - Wrong is wrong. Have contempt for me all you wish but at least I don't re-examine my moral compass because someone on the left happens to feel the same way.

[Jennifer]

Zorel-
I'll repeat my response to you on the other post--kill 'em all. I am a liberal but I still support the death penalty; my complaint is that it doesn't go far enough, in that a man who tortured people to death sholdn't be given a clean quick death via a needle. How many American soldiers will die in retaliation for Abu Ghraib? How many innocent Iraqi civilians will then die when our forces retaliate in turn? Jesus Christ, what a clusterfuck those low-rent sadists have unleashed. If we turn them over to the Iraqis maybe that will undo some of the damage; let the Arab world take their anger out on those who actually deserve it.

"Revenge is sweet, saith the Lord." See? The beauty of the Christian Bible is that even an atheist like me can find something in it worth quoting.

[Walter Wallis]

About one in 20 or fewer men, in my time and in Rush's time, had what it took to be an infantryman. As a combat infantryman, would you have wished a man with a medical problem instead of a healthy man along side me on the line? What kind of a stupid asshole are you, any way? Soldiers are to win wars, not to make debating points. We should not have minimum physical requirements for a very demanding job? We should have drafted anyone who might, later in life, have a political opinion? A boil on the ass is amusing? May you have much amusement.
Reason is just a title any more. My money, after 20 or 30 years, will go elsewhere, probably to a subscription to Martha Stewart, or to buy another copy of "How to shit in the woods" [Tenspeed Press}and unless things pick up on Hit & Run I may leave you to play with yourselves.
Convince me you are worth me staying. Pussys.

[tchiers]

I haven't listened to Rush since I was in high school.

Good to know he's as retarded as ever.

[Garth]

I have some ideas of how we can blow off some steam with Rush's help. Get me my cat-'o'nine tails, wontchya?

[crap-action-jackson]

You know it's really not surprising to hear that stuff coming from Rush, seeing as how he's an f'ing idiot.

Ditto Sean Hannity.

[madpad]

Ditto...THAT's funny.

I'm listening to the dirtbag now.

It's good to listen to the moron every once in a while to guage the 'moral turpitude' (sp?) quotient of Rush and his dittosheep.

Remember, this is the original chickenhawk (who avoided Vietnam by way of a boil on his ass.)

Sad this guy gets $325 million dollars to do this crap.

[MALAK]

So, obviously the rehab was a bust . . .

[Rick Barton]

Rush has shown poor taste, of the callous variety, before.

A few years ago, a submarine in waters off Hawaii hit a Japanese tourist vessel killing some of the tourists. When the Submarine captain tearfully apologized, Rush actually made fun of his understandable showing of emotion.

[joe]

Jennifer,

Salsa sauce. ATM machine. the hoi polloi.

[Jennifer]

Kent-
You're right. My bad. In retrospect, I should have known better than to trust anything told me by the Sunday-school teacher who also told us kids that we should practice reading our Bibles in the closet, with a pen flashlight, because that's what we'd have to do when the Antichrist took over the world.

Joe-
I was going to make a remark about ignorant liberals, but then I remembered I'm one myself. Goddammit.

[Truthstick]

Rush is an entertainer. Maybe he should have showed his man-boobs at half-time of the Superbowl. The leftlibertarians here would have dixie-chicked all over themselves in his support.

[Joe L.]

You're right Madpad, wrong is wrong and if you'll note I don't say I support the actions of the guards. I simply pont out that I am NOT willing to join up with the Lefties or Libertarians hereabouts, because I see the end goals of those groups being different than mine.

I'm not about ending the war in Iraq or defeating Bush. And I think that the folks I've listed in my previous posting ARE. So, I'm not too keen on joining hands with Ted et al. Because as I say, their goals are ifferent than my goals.

I don't see this as reason to come home, fire Rummy, our to castigate the military. I see it as really proof of systemic success. An enlisted person noted the abuses, reported the abuses, the Army investigated, and is in the proocess of proscecuting some and ending the careers of others. For me, that's the end point. There is no more to say or do.

Contrast this with My Lai, little reporting, the reporting was ignored, and until Hersh broke the story the Army was unwilling to preceed against Calley et al. I see Abu Ghraib as an outlier and the whole mess as proof that the "system" can and does work. I don't see it as proof of failure in Iraq, failure by Rumsfeld, or proof of the brutality of the military.

I don't see that as true of many others.

[Walter Wallis]

And the lady General and the playful guards are all democrats.

[madpad]

Joe L.

I see we agree on many of the fundamentals. I, too, don't think that this justifies calling our troops back or castigating our military. I think you're correct that this is an exception rather than the rule.

I also think that no matter what anyone may have thought about the wisdom of going to war, we are there now and to turn back would be far worse than finishing the job.

In fact, I would go further in saying that while the abuses are abhorent, this situation presents a great opportunity. Establishing democracy in the region may be helped by showing how to handle a situation like this in a fair and just manner for everyone - including the accused.

Keeping in mind that this thread was started by focusing on Rush's antics, I don't think we'll help our cause by minimizing, excusing or justifying bad behavior.

There's nothing wrong or weak in admitting fault and doing our best to rise above mistakes. And we have sold our actions to both America, Iraq and the rest of the world based on the fact that we are better and more fair aand more just than Saddam's regime (and by impicit extension the rest of the region).

I realize that Rush's standard tack is based on outrageous hyperbole that attempts (in his mind) to counter left-leaning bias. I can live with that.

But in this case, I believe that he (and now Sean Hannity) are way off base.

It's fine to say that calling for Rumsfeld's ouster is just the left trying to get even. It's wise to assert that these are only the actions of a few and not representative of our military as a whole.

But to excuse the situation as nothing more than a fraternity prank reflects a deeply flawed sense of morality on the part of Rush & Sean. It also reflects a deep insecurity on their part about admitting when their cause, however just, occassionally makes a mistake.

Who among any of us enjoys the company of someone who insists on being right 100% of the time? Who of any of us would associate with someone who offends and then refuses to apologize? Would you marry anyone who was incapable of saying "I'm sorry."?

How are our institutions any different? Institutions that cannot admit when they've made a mistake, own up to it and then trust the people to understand (they usually do understand, by the way) deserve a little skepticism.

I believe you're right that this is proof that the system works. I also think Bush was right to apologize. I think he's right to defend Rummy. I think he's done a good job of putting the incident in perspective with our goals for the region.

And I think Rush is an obnoxious boob that should untie that other half of his brain from behind his back.

[Walter Wallis]

Like my Aunt Deedee used to say, "Sorry don't shuck no oysters."
The person who directly offends must atone to, as best as possible, mitigate the harm done. Where such mitigation is not possible, the one directly involved should, preferebly voluntarily but not necessarily so, suffer a greater harm.
An apology from someone remote from the cause trivializes the hurt by diminishing the responsibility of the actual doer of harm. Had Reagan not taken "full responsibility" for the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing, the officers responsible for posting unarmed sentries might have been punished severely and publicly enough so that the OOD of the Cole would have blown away the bomb Zodiac before it came fatally close.
Unless it can be demonstrated that an order or policy originating with Rumsfeld was the proximate and predictably cause of the breakdown in discipline, then this hearing is nothing more than a circle jerk with sandpaper gloves.
I will give you this - if you were to poll all our enemies, they would enthusiasticly support Rumsfeld's removal.
In the end, it is all the fault of wrong colored berets.

[David Thomason]

Very entertaining string this morning. It is quite apparent to me that this is the beginning of the end. The last shred of legitimacy has fallen off this sorry affair and the Empereror is at last...naked..it is time to throw a dog coller around his neck and have Lynndie drag him away before anyone else gets hurt.

[Gary]

Jennifer is simply spectacular!

However, I'd hate to be her supervisor...all that logic, rationality, and precision would put me in the grave in a New York minute!!

I sincerely love you, Jennifer.

(A Secret Admirer)

[Joe L.]

Madpad, I like Rush, but on this one I agree with you. He needs to untie the other half of his brain, indeed! I had to laugh at that one.

[Mark Borok]

"As far as I know Rush Limbaugh has naver tackled anyone he disagrees with at a political rally"

Neither did Franken. He was helping security remove a heckler who was trying to disrupt the rally.

[madpad]

Joe L. - Glad you got a nice chuckle, sir. Enjoy your day and your weekend.

[Rush's manboobs?]

"Maybe he should have showed his man-boobs at half-time of the Superbowl. The leftlibertarians here would have dixie-chicked all over themselves in his support."

Priceless!

[KentInDC]

Jennifer,
Is this the quote you are thinking about?

"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19).

I haven't read the Bible in a few years, but I don't remember the "revenge is sweet" quote. Maybe it is in the same book as "The Lord helps those who help themselves"?

[madpad]

Wallis,

You again? So nice to read your colorful and witty (ahem) stuff again. I missed you this week.

As pleasant as you are, my first instinct is to say "get lost, ya' bugger...and good riddance!"

But then you DO have tremendous entertainment value and I'd certainly miss that. You're the spice in the conversation, man.

Incidentally, I have no problem with Rush escaping military service because of his less than tip-top condition (although I would have thought that an "ass boil" was probably something that would have healed).

In fact, having grown up in the Vietnam era and losing my dad to the war, I have immense respect for anyone who served and tremendous understanding for those who avoided it - for whatever reason - real or imagined.

My problem is with his obvious current lack of true appreciation for the sacrifice our soldiers make. To excuse the actions of the guards at Abu Ghraib as "blowing off steam" is assinine and besmirches the dignity and honor of other soldiers who have managed to remain above such behavior.

It shows he's got no truly moral perspective and, in my humble opinion, makes his rant sadly pathetic.

Scarily, millions of people who listen to him regularly will not listen critically. They will turn around and start repeating his same lame justifications without really thinking about what they're saying.

And those are who I'm referring to when I use the term 'dittosheep'.

[Chuck Divine]

Just having some fun? Blowing off steam?

This is pathetic.

I run with an international group known as the Hash House Harriers -- "The Drinking Club with a Running Problem." Some are active duty military. Some have been in Iraq.

Our idea of blowing off steam is to get together and do silly things -- like the Red Dress Run. Nobody gets hurt, no crimes against humanity are committed.

Yes, there's at least one group in Iraq.

[garym]

Joe,
"A Greek remark, a Spanish word, and one U. S."

[Rick Barton]

Jennifer:

"I was going to make a remark about ignorant liberals, but then I remembered I'm one myself."

A liberal? What do you mean? I thought I remember you attacking public (government) schools. Certainly you're not for government regulation of economic activity, right? Government affirmative action programs? The welfare state? The corporate welfare state? Social Security as it is now? The nanny state? The vast regulatory state?

Please tell us that you meant that you are a "classical liberal".

Hey; I just remembered that once you wrote that even though you were against the war, you weren't in favor of bring the troops home now. Hmmm... so you have gone a little soft on us before. Remember Jennifer, the worst government program of all is an unnecessary war.

[Liberal News Digest]

Rush repeated his comments for five straight days.

On the 5th day he did decide to also whine about how he was being viciously attacked for his comments.

"U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."

Rush must really know how to have a good time.

#1 on google for liberal news

[FORREST PARKER]

I never knew the readers of this once great magazine were so full of hatred. You're Rush-bashing is sickening. Now I know why I let my subscription expire.

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