"German lawyers have been uncertain whether yelling Nazi catchphrases at a dog constitutes an offence"

Some dilemmas that arise when trying to ban offensive speech and expression, from Germany.

Comments

[Goering]

No soup for ANY of you!

[B.P.]

Every single sentence in this story is hilarious.

[Douglas Fletcher]

If I ever have a dog I'll name it Hillary so I can tell it shut the f up. So there.

[Robert Hutchinson]

If I ever have a dog I'll name it Hillary so I can tell it shut the f up. So there.

"Who made this mess on the rug? . . . Bill Clinton!!! Tsk tsk."

-- (some comedian whose name I can't remember)

[some guy]

Although I'm not a particular fan of neo-Nazis, I do applaud whenever anyone bucks these silly German laws.

[Joe Majsterski]

Not to beat an over-used comparison to death, but maybe fifty years from now, in America, it will be illegal to train your dog with such phrases as "George sit! Pre-emptive strike! Sick Iraq!"

[cdunlea]

Joe, we can only hope...

[Gary Farber]

Had to blog that.

[joe]

some guy, he didn't just train his dog to do that. he went around with his dog doing nazi shit in front of jews. i do think the germans are a out of line to still have these laws on the books, but it was harrassment.

[garym]

I've never understood why the German government thinks the way to fight Nazism is to act like Nazis.

[dj of raleigh]

The US has no perspective to judge Germany
in their having made words of Nazism profane.
Nazism had brought hope them despair and ruin,
and the residual indoctrination was to be crushed.
Perhaps this is a time to let internal affairs be just that.

[some guy]

dj,

So that justifies governmental restriction of the right to free speech? The man taught his dog to salute at the command "Heil Hitler"; who gives a toss? Sure, it was offensive, but no one was hurt by it.

[Dave Potts]

Most Germans consider Nazi speech, symbols, and the name Adolf to be completely offensive even without the silly government laws. Just another case of government going too far, trying to resolve an issue that the population already resolves by relegating people like Roland Thein to the fringe of society.

And by the way, comparing Bush to Hitler is pretty damn insulting to Jews and Germans who know either firsthand or through the older generations in their families who Hitler truly was.

[some guy]

And that matters how, joe? Thein was not just targeting Jews, not just Turks, not just the openly gay, but anyone and everyone who would find his antics scurrilous. And in an ostensibly open society, that's OK - I don't have to like what Thein thinks is appropriate or amusing. But to say, "Oops, a Jew might see this, better bring this guy before a judge" strikes me as a particularly insidious form of discrimination.

[garym]

dj of raleigh's comment amounts to saying that there is no right or wrong for governments, and that what they allow their populations to do is a subjective matter which outsiders have "no perspective" to judge. But governments are not the owners of their population, and human rights don't vary according to governmental whims, and a government violating people's rights is no more an "internal affair" of the government than a mugger's assault is an "internal affair" of the mugger.

[joe]

"And that matters how, joe?'

Legally, not a whit. But morally, there's a pretty big difference between using offenses behavior as a goof, and using it to harrass peoplel.

[MALAK]

Rick Barton: Zundel is an odious pig who lied on his original immigration application many years ago when he first came to Canada. The Canadian government has been trying to deport him to Germany ever since the first criminal charge against him, and the revelation of his immigration problems. It is because of Germany's laws viz. Naziism that this scumbag has been able to use Canada's overly soft refugee system to stay his deportation. I am grateful for the cooperation of the U.S. government if it helps send this prick to his reward.

[Rick Barton]

MALAK,

I wasn't aware that Zundel falsified his immigration application. Do you think that he would be treated this way for that offence if he were not a neo-Nazi? I don't think that the government has the right to go after "criminals" if the "crime" is only a thought crime, since the law is unjust. Democratic majorities don't mitigate or excuse the violation of individual liberty.

I don't want Zundel to be deported to Germany because of the injustice he'll face there. Also, I fear that the Canadian Law being used, as the result of pressure, to punish him will of course generate sympathy for his plight, but which might also morph into sympathy for his cause. Your split screen broadcast idea sounds great to me.

[MALAK]

Rick, for good or ill, the law is in the books. Personally I disagree with the idea of any type of 'hate-crime'. But having said that, doesn't the government have the right to go after criminals? I may believe the law to be asinine, but enough of the population supported the party that doesn't feel that way. If it were up to me I would be broadcasting Zundel's idiocy on the CBC every weekend on a split screen with footage taken during WW2 of the liberation of the death camps. What better way to show him for the buffoon that he (and those like him) truly is? Sadly, not enough people in this country feel the same. What I did say in my original post is that his original crime was falsification of his immigration application, and for that he should be sent back to Germany. Everything else is just theater.

[joe]

"Sounds more than a bit subjective to me, joe. Offense is in the eye of the beholder."

Highbrow libertoid for "s'matter, baby, can't you take a joke?"

[MALAK]

Rick, I think we basically agree on this and no, I do not think he would be treated this way if he weren't a Nazi. But what do you expect from our Liberal party dictatorship?

[joe]

MALAK, I like the split screen idea, too. "Give em enough rope" is a highly underrated political strategy.

[some guy]

"Legally, not a whit. But morally, there's a pretty big difference between using offenses behavior as a goof, and using it to harrass people."

Sounds more than a bit subjective to me, joe. Offense is in the eye of the beholder.

[Rick Barton]

MALAK,

No one, not even neo-Nazi creeps like Zundel deserve to be prosecuted for thought crimes. And, his existence and those like him in no way excuses Canada's repressive hate crime/anti free speech laws.

If the Canadian government merely wanted to get rid of him they wouldn't have come down here to get him, as he was already out of Canada.

[some joe]

Sure, joe, why not? The same way the statement "But morally, there's a pretty big difference between using offenses behavior as a goof, and using it to harrass people" smacks of "Freedom for me, but not for thee".

[some guy]

(cough) Er... that should read "Posted by some guy". If that's a Freudian slip, then I'm trouble.

[joe]

What freedom? All I've said is that the man's actions were immoral, not benign. Are you actually saying that being cognizant of an action's moral implications is, in and of itself, anti-freedom?

[some guy]

No, joe, instead you ducked behind the word "harrassment". I think that Thein was offensive; no doubt those minority groups verbally targeted by him felt so, too. But such is the power of free speech: it can be used for good or ill. Thein did not follow these people home, he did not call them up on the phone, he did not send them hate mail - he shouted what he felt he had to get off his chest in public (with a poor dog trained to act as foolish as his master). And again I ask: who gives a toss? I don't like it - I don't have to like it - but the man has the right to do so. Yet, the implication with your use of the word "harrassment" seems to be "Oh, I don't like this particular free speech. Isn't there something we can do about it? Quick - let's call it harrassment." Very presumptuous, joe, and yes, very anti-freedom in its logical conclusion.

[Paul Reinitz]

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