A Popular Democracy
The BBC has broadcast a documentary alleging that North Korea used gas chambers to test new chemical weapons on human beings. A Guardian story on the documentary notes:
Defectors have smuggled out documents that appear to reveal how methodical the chemical experiments were. One stamped 'top secret' and 'transfer letter' is dated February 2002. The name of the victim was Lin Hun-hwa. He was 39. The text reads: 'The above person is transferred from … camp number 22 for the purpose of human experimentation of liquid gas for chemical weapons.'
Not surprisingly, given the rapprochement with the North, the South Korean government has cast doubt on the story, though it said it would have to investigate before arriving at any final conclusions–which basically means we can pretty much ignore its doubts.
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lol — for what it’s worth, i don’t wanna annihilate every “bad” country on the planet either. but i think i’ll just say that.
It wasn’t me, I swear!
Now, I just want to know, what other H&R reader has a sense of “humor” even more sarcastic than mine?
“We are on to you. Your Straussian estoric readings of this story aside, you will be stopped.”
What exactly is “guess who” trying to stop Michael Young from doing? Pointing out that a foreign government sucks does not necessarily advocate its violent overthrow.
Guess who is either Justin Raimondo or a good parody of him (which he usually does to himself). In either case, if even half of these stories are true, Dear Leader better be fiting himself for a spider hole, if we can negate any nuclear threat.
Think about it – we have a country that’s *admitted* to kidnapping Japanese citizens right off their own beaches in order to “study” them, right up through the 1980s. If that’s the tip of the iceberg, I’d hate to see what’s submerged.
There is no concept of sovereignty loose enough to include N. Korea as a viable country – it needs to be ended as a slave state, by whatever means we have at our disposal. Say what you want about Bush, but anyone who cannot bring themselves to call N. Korea evil is either afraid (S. Korea) or delusional (NYT book reviewers).
It’s evil and if we can do something about it, we should.
Remember the Pueblo.
anyone who cannot bring themselves to call N. Korea evil is either afraid (S. Korea) or delusional (NYT book reviewers).
North Korea is evil. There, I said it!
Now, would you prefer to see them collapse naturally as the Soviet Empire did, or would you prefer to do it violently and accept any unintended consequences that may result?
Believe it or not, I’d like to see the sanctions lifted so that trade can bring about a middle class that is capable of undermining the ruling elite over time. It’s slowly working in China.
Unfortunately, Kim is more on the order of the Romanian Ceaucescau (spelling?) than he is like Gorbachov or Yeltsin, or even the current Chinese leadership. Probably the only way his government is going to “collapse” is from the force of a bullet going through Kim’s body. Preferably that will be a Korean bullet, but after 50 years of Kims retaining power I wouldn’t count on it.
I thought the BBC was not to be trusted! 🙂
thoreau,
I think a more proper statement is to say that the North Korean government, or rather, specific elements of it at least, are evil.
Currently 11 postings on N.Korea gassing its citizens and 81 about J. Jacksons 1/4 second boob shot. Sad.
Thoreau
A “natural” way for the regime in NK to collapse is to invade the South…when our inevitable reaction would likely be more costly in human life that a pre-emptive strike now would be.
Kim is not interested in trade, and is angling for handouts for his centralized rationing state.
Matt,
Maybe if the North Koreans started bearing their breasts on TV, someone would care; they need a better PR department. 🙂
God! When are they going to get some kind of membership/log-in system here?
Andrew,
A direct attack would require a significant force build-up; during that period all the North Koreans would need do is shell Seoul (a very nice city).
Andrew,
BTW, if you think air power would stop such shelling, then you need to look at how ineffective NATO air strikes were against mobile SAMs and tracked or wheeled artillery guns in the sort of forested and mountainous areas that are common along the DMZ.
“I thought the BBC was not to be trusted!”
I trust any news which goes against the reporter’s bias, knowing that it is probably true and is the least damaging to the bias of the reporter.
JB
The attractive option is neutron weapons…or maybe just “conventional” nuclear weapons.
A blockade has been suggested, and the off-the-record story is that the suggestion came from the Chinese, who would need to co-operate…of course, they don’t (much) care if this provokes a desperate NK reaction.
North Korea is a threat in a way that Saddam’s Iraqi regime was not. North Korea may or may not have nuclear weapons, but it certainly has a madman in charge.
But Bush has put 40% of our active combat forces in Iraq, and is sending another 40% in to rotate the troops. So he has adopted a policy of negotiation with the madman Kim Jong Il, and is hoping the Korea situation does not get out of hand.
If the Korea situation does get out of hand, will our inability to deal with it cause any reconsideration by those who continue to justify the war against the Iraq that posed no threat?
Is Kim mad or just eccentric? 🙂
Gene
I can’t imagine what you think our troops could be used for on the Korean peninsula, or why you would want to have them there. The notion of fighting a conventional war with NK (again) is going by the wayside…has been for years now.
Andrew,
To my knowledge, no one posesses nuetron weapons; and with nuclear weapons, you risk a lot of collateral damage due to fallout.
I think a much more reasonable option is infiltration, bribery, and then assassination. Decapitate the leader and and have his advisors, etc. on your side. Indeed, this is what the U.S. should have done in Iraq. 🙂
Bush has put 40% of our active combat forces in Iraq, and is sending another 40% in to rotate the troops. So he has adopted a policy of negotiation with the madman Kim Jong Il, and is hoping the Korea situation does not get out of hand.
The fact that we’re using most of our troops in Iraq is relevant only if you’re advocating the use of American troops against North Korea.
South Korea will not allow us to invade from their land; neither will Russia or China. Japan won’t let us base an amphibious invasion from their land, either. So, tell me Gene — since you obviously *think* you’ve put some thought into this… how were the troops supposed to get to North Korea? Swim there from Alaska, perhaps?
Which brings me to your earlier comment:
North Korea may or may not have nuclear weapons, but it certainly has a madman in charge.
So the country is run by a nutcase who might have nuclear weapons — and you massing US troops in the region is a smart plan? We knew Hussein didn’t have nukes, but knew he was trying to get them; he was a good target. If, like (probably) Kim, he already *had* nukes, we could not have, and would not have, invaded.
If the Korea situation does get out of hand, will our [yadda yadda, more whining about Iraq]
The situation in Korea has been out of hand since the beginning of the Korean war, and we’ve been utterly unable to deal with it for that entire time. So there’s nothing new here.
The good news is that China seems to be getting the message that we expect them to help keep North Korea in line. If Kim gets really “out of hand”, and the Chinese think the USA is likely to take some kind of military action, China itself will deal with North Korea. They’d rather lose a few hundred thousand troops and/or civilians than have an American occupying force right on the other side of the border.
When I left Korea 52 years ago, had anyone told me that my 2nd Division would still be there a half century later, I would have called him crazy. But then when Asshole Ike used surrender to win an election, the game was over and they won. When later idiots proposed building 2 nuclear reactors in NK, I told them they were nuts. I was right again.
Let free Korea decide what they can live with, and bring my Division home.
When China finally gets rid of its own communist regime (no matter how spurious it is now) this will be the end of North Korea.
That’s how Romania’s dictator fell – only after USSR ceased to exist as such (way after Gorby).
It won’t be soon though.
I think Dan hits the nail on the head at 6:26. We’re screwed, and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it but wait him out.
“infiltration, bribery, and then assassination
…..this is what the U.S. should have done in Iraq”
JB, do you suppose France would have been willing to give old Uncle a hand with that? I’ve always understood they’re rather good at that sort of thing (the “Rainbow Warrior” cock-up notwithstanding). 🙂
Hasn’t NK already collapsed? I mean, they can’t feed themselves, exports are what? The only reason someone hasn’t gone in to clean house is because of the nukes. You wanna solve the problem? Put about 100 tons of free food south of the DMZ, drop leaflets north of the border telling the people about it, and open the border. NK becomes a ghost town overnight. Then you nuke the north. Anybody left behind is a government wonk and deserves to be nuked. Simple.
Or not.
Real cute, Mike. How much are you paid by the AEI and PNAC? Sorry but are not buying your Likudnik scare stories yet again. We know you want to “libertarianize” N. Korea to expand your Empire (which amazining benifits the neocons, Haliburn and the warprofiteering banksters, and oh yeah, the India/Isreal Zionist alliance. Gooo figure!).
You and all your little yuppie “new wave” lifestyle liberventionist buddies are really just neocons who want to legalize pot. The Libertarian rank-and-file can see through all the slick rationalzations — Everything’s changed! We have to “libertarianize” the Empire! Gay bars in Riyadh! — and fully realize that you, and Glenn Reynolds, Stephen Green and the rest of the Warbloggers, are no more “libertarian” than than the neo-Trotskyites over at the American Enterprise Institute.
Oh, but you’ve got Neal Boortz on your side. Wow! What a plus that is. But somehow, I think, us “old school” libertarians will manage to retain our ideological (and moral) compass.
We are on to you. Your Straussian estoric readings of this story aside, you will be stopped.
What the hell was that?
Some dude with names dropping out of his ass.
A regular Reason reader with a sarcastic streak and a sense of humor, it looks like.
Wow, 171 comments (and counting) about J Jackson’s tit vs 30 comments about something that might really matter????
I hope they are pulling as many troops out of NK
as is possible, and as silent as possible.
Good that we have a huge mind field between the two.
If China goes after Taiwan or NK after SK,
we’ll have to sit back and watch the news
after getting out of harm’s way, all the while,
making economic punishment noises.
I hope they are pulling as many troops out of NK as is possible, and as silent as possible.
North Korea either has nukes, or is very close to having nukes. It’s also dirt poor and filled with hundreds of thousands of starving people, controlled by an army that itself is only barely fed.
We have to keep threatening North Korea. If it thinks it’s immune to military reprisals, it is essentially guaranteed that it will sell nuclear weapons to nations — such as Iran and Saudi Arabia — that have plenty of money, but no nukes. Even though we have no effective way of launching a war against North Korea, our presence there keeps the *possibility* of an invasion at the forefront of Kim’s mind.
I’d love to pull our troops out of South Korea and tell the South Koreans to go fuck themselves; they could give lessons in Lack of Gratitude to the French. Unfortunately, however, it is in our national interest to keep the troops there.
Reports of North Korea’s demise are greatly eggagerated. Yes, there was horrible, widespread starvation for a couple years in the 1990s. This occurred after the two worst years for flooding in recorded history (which is quite long in that part of the world) occurred one after the other. Since then, the agricultural sector has recovered, and North Koreans are not dropping like flies.
The starvation we read about is not the normal course of affairs in North Korea. They’re just poor.
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