Atkins Disapproved

NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg is at it again. This time his target for wrong behavior is the Atkins diet, or more specifically its creator, Robert Atkins. Bloomberg was caught on tape telling a group of firemen that there is no way Atkins died from a slip on an icy sidewalk last year. Bloomberg's implication was that Atkins' diet did him in.

But Atkins' widow is calling Bloomberg on his Brooklyn firehouse bonding/bullshit session. Veronica Atkins is demanding a public apology from Bloomberg. The mayor, of course, says one is not forthcoming as Hizzoner knows everything about everyone. Just ask him.

Comments

[John Ashcroft]

I have completed my dossiers on each and every H&R poster for the last 90 days, with the results as follows:

Libertarians: 83%
Liberals: 8%
Conservatives: 4%
Other: 5%
Crackpots pissing in the wind: 100%

Margin of error: +/- 3%

Expect your midnight knock within the next two weeks. Please unlock your doors.

Regards,

[Chris]

I've been doing Atkins for a couple years now (off and on). I actually find myself eating more VEGETABLES when I eat on-plan. The protein doesn't change, it's just that the carbs you do eat come from naturally low-carb foods, like low-starch veggies and low-glycemic fruit (like berries and melons). Considering that's what our ancestors ate millenia ago, I don't think that a low-carb lifestyle will be the end of the species.

[dhex]

mooserack - it's not even discipline so much as just finding something to keep you active as much as possible and for as long as possible. (and intelligently as possible). i just think the screaming and yelling helps in some cases. though not as much as self-motivation.

but since we can't legislate or otherwise create self-motivation...

of course, not supersizing it would help. whatever it happens to be. so far my eat tons of vegetables and try to avoid white breads and simple sugars, along with lots of fiber plan has worked out well for the past two years, though at 6'4" and 240 i'm hardly thin.

[rst]

Crackpots pissing in the wind: 100%

How irrelevant. That is an apt description of any commentator. The words are invariably hollow, lost on most everyone save your audience, any interested critics, and bored folk looking for something to read. It boils down to a simple philosophical concept: anything that can be said can be refuted.

I don't think anyone in here, from the staff to people who should be working but enjoy this distraction more, has delusions about being monstrously, individually important to the political scene. We're just here to gripe, meet similarly minded folk, and go about our lives. Quit pissing in the wind about pissing in the wind.

[Norman Bates, Esq.]

Here, here, RST!
I, for one, take these posts very seriously, almost as seriously as the posters, some of whom are very serious indeed. We're making a difference in the world!

What's that, mother? Oh my God! Blood! Blood!

[jon b.]

Doesn?t the mayor of NY have enough to do? What are his responsibilities other than censoring art and speculating on causes of death?

With Adkins kidney damage is a very real cause for concern, and yes I have also seen evidence that may tie the diet to a rise in cases of gout. In essence you are fooling your body into thinking it is starving when on the diet.

Still it seems safe is used as directed (and potentially very harmful if not). Wonder what common opinion is going to be when the side effects of slipshod implementation start becoming evident.

[Equality 7-2521]

Chris,

Don't you think that you are an atypical Atkins dieter? The ones I know wouldn't know a fruit or vegetable if it bit them on the ass. When you question them about the source of all these evil carbs in their previous diet, they talk about chips and soda, foods that should be avoided by anyone looking to drop some pounds.

Has anyone here tracked their body fat percentage on Atkins? It's hard enough to keep lean body mass level while losing fat, but in a diet without sugars it should be much harder.

[anon]

Mr. Ashcroft,

Since I am responsible for at least 10 nom de blogs on Hit and Run, I think your statistics are a little skewed.

[Wild Pegasus]

Dr. Atkins recommends that anyone with serious kidney damage or kidney failure not do his diet. But there is no evidence that doing Atkins causes kidney damage or kidney failure (his recommendation is simply a precaution).

I think it's important to note that most people mistake the first phase of Atkins - getting 20g of carbohydrates a day - for the whole diet. That's not the case, as the first phase usually only lasts 2 weeks to a month. As the diet progresses, you add more carbohydrates back, including whole grains at the later stages. Over the lifetime maintenance program, your body is still running on carbohydrates, just a reduced number from the amount that blew you up in the first place. Someone with a normal metabolism who exercises moderately can probably get 100g of carbs a day without gaining an ounce.

- Josh

[jon b.]

No evidence, just a smattering of physiology. Protein metabolism produces Nitrogen. This is highly toxic so Nitrogen is combined to form ammonia (a little better), which is further refined into Uric acid to lessen toxicity further. Even in this state it has to be excreted pretty quickly (otherwise you wind up with Gout). This is hard on the kidneys and the reason you are instructed to drink lots of water is to facilitate diluting it and flushing it out. (Birds take this one step further (since they can?t excrete the nitrogen while in the shell) and form Urea, which is still less toxic and results in the old joke ?What is the white stuff on top of chicken shit?? ?It?s chicken shit, stupid.? Actually it?s urea.) A high protein diet results in an increase in BUN (blood urea nitrogen) without the corresponding increase in Creatinine and reasonably can lead to damage of the kidney?s filtration system (evidenced by a later rise in creatinine as the system breaks down).

Been a long time since I studied this, but I think the science is essentially correct. No matter how many carbs you eat, eating a lot of protein is still going to cause this problem if there isn?t enough fluid volume to flush the kidney. And unlike muscles, kidneys don?t get stronger when stressed. One of the reasons gout is associated with alcoholism is because of the natural dehydrating effects of alcohol.

[Chris]

Equality 7-2521,

I consider myself an Atkins dieter who has actually *read the book.* So many start the program without reading the source material for it and end up screwing themselves up.

And, yes, most people who are grossly overweight (including myself, I will admit honestly) did have horrific eating habits before the began Atkins. However, no one can tell me with a straight face that changing potatoes, rice, bread and sugar for salads, brocolli and cauliflower is unhealthy. The deal with Atkins isn't that it's a "high-protein" way of eating; like Protein Power, it is a "sufficient protein" way of eating. If you were to look at the profile of a typical Atkins eater, you'll actually find that it's more of a high-fat diet. Compared to a "balanced diet," protein falls around the same as Atkins. The amount of fat is increased. But there are advantages of this. First, fat makes you feel full as well as encourages your body to use fat first as fuel.

As to the body fat information, a lot of people track that for themselves. Their body fat does decrease much quicker and more efficiently than it does on a low-fat, high-carb program.

[Equality 7-2521]

Chris,

If you are implementing your Atkins diet by eating more salads and veggies, I will not tell you that it is unhealthy. But I have one friend (who also read the book) who replaced bread with salami dipped in brie. Can you tell me with a straight face that he made the correct choice?

[Douglas Fletcher]

This isn't directed at anyone at this site, but I must say that, whatever the virtues or lack of them of the Atkins diet, I hate the bastard for the flood of ignorant hot air he's let loose. Spend 20 minutes in a car listening to one of these fad chasers ticking off all their latest theories and you'll almost wish he would turn into a PETA fanatic instead.

[Larry R]

In case any of you missed this news item over at The Onion:

14-Word Diet Stretched To 200 Pages
BOSTON?The Florida Keys diet, which can be adequately described in 14 words, has been padded into a 204-page book: Losing Weight The Florida Keys Way, available in bookstores Tuesday. "The diet is pretty much, 'Avoid saturated fats and simple carbohydrates, eat mostly fresh vegetables and seafood, and exercise," said author Dr. Harris Jegen. "Unfortunately, no one is going to shell out $24.95 for one sentence, so I've got some recipes and charts in there, a bunch of testimonials, and a 50-page Diet Diary." Jegen's previous books include The Florida Keys Diet and The Florida Keys Diet Made Easy.

[Dan]

An apology? For what, slandering the Holy Name Of Lord Atkins?

Well, let's see -- he made fun of a dead guy's weight, insulted his cooking skills, dismissed the actual cause of death as "bullshit", and used the occasion to peddle some silly-ass conspiracy theory. You can't see how that might be a teeny bit insensitive?

I didn't like Kurt Cobain, or Nirvana's music. But when I heard he'd killed himself, I didn't go around saying "It wasn't suicide. His head just exploded when he realized his music sucked ass." 🙂

[Mona]

Atkins is perfectly safe and highly effective. I gained weight in the fall and over the holidays, and since Jan. 1 have dropped 7 lbs doing Atkins (10-12 to go). I feel great, eat plenty and am never hungry.

Being an intelligent woman, I researched it first. Beyond simply checking some of the studies Atkins sites in his literature -- all of which testify to the safety and efficacy of the diet -- and doing some independent sniffing around, I applied my bottom-line test: the Atkins Center has very, very deep pockets, and millions have gone on the diet in the last several decades. Yet, the trial lawyers yawn. Folks simply are NOT dropping like flies, or at all, from Atkins.

Bloomberg can screw himself, for many reasons, including dissing Atkins.

[Mona]

mooserack writes: "i feel that one of the reasons atkins is so popular is that it's hedonistic: pig out, just don't eat thus and such. it's anti-establishment:"

That is, like, so NOT true. Atkins repeatedly warns to eat only until you are full, and not to gorge. What he does say is if you are hungry- eat! Hunger is what discourages so many trying to count calories for weight loss, as I know from taking it off in the early 80s after having kids. Further, he almost constantly emphasizes the need to exercise.

Further, he wants you to vary the beef w/chicken, fish, and tofu, and other sources of protein. And the reason the French do so well eating high fat but also their baguettes, is that they still consume about 5X less sugar and garbage carbs than Americans do.

I am a natural born skeptic, but this is my second engagement with Atkins and it simply DOES work; I feel much better when I've taken "bad carbs" out of my diet and relaxed about the cheeze, mayo and cream. Calorie-counting drove me nuts; this way I can be sure I won't get hungry, as fat satiates one.

[Andy D.]

jon b, you have some of your science backwards. In humans, *urea* is the end product of nitrogen metabolism and is what is the primary method for excreting excess nitrogen in the urine. Uric acid, in humans, is the end product of purine (DNA & RNA) metabolism, is mostly reabsorbed by the kidneys (there's some tradeoff in having more or less uric acid in the body), and is the cause of gout.

The white stuff in bird and reptile crap is uric acid.

There ~might~ be some enzyme in the human body that generates uric acid from protein metabolism, but if so, it's a relatively low-level phenomenon.

And one other point about the Atkins diet... the maintance stage is almost certainly more healthy than the average American diet. If given a choice between Atkins' reccomendations and burger, fries, and a coke, I'd definitely take Atkins.

[Mona]

"Don't you think that you are an atypical Atkins dieter? The ones I know wouldn't know a fruit or vegetable if it bit them on the ass."

I just had a yummy big bowl of ground beef fried with cabbage in butter, salt and pepper. At lunch, there was lettuce, onions and green peppers in my Atkins-approved, chicken and bacon Subway wrap.

In a few weeks, I'll add some fruits.

There really seems to be a lot of negative misinformation floating around about Atkins.

[Andy D.]

"I feel much better when I've taken "bad carbs" out of my diet "

Everything I read about what diets work best advises to cut back on simple sugars (or "bad carbs"), though experts seem to vary in how draconian this imperitive should be taken.

I believe that the glycemic index will become increasingly important because it rates how quickly different food raise blood-glucose levels. It really seems that sharp increases in blood-glucose are bad. And one thing many people seem to miss is that, for example, fettucine alfredo has a much lower glycemic index than plain pasta because the extra fat slows digestion and thereby causes less of a glucose spike.

[Andy D.]

Mona, one problem with the negative info about Atkins is that many of the people on low carb diets don't know the proper Atkins method and instead simply cut out carbs (and veggies look rather carb-rich to them).

[Mona]

Equality 7 writes: "But I have one friend (who also read the book) who replaced bread with salami dipped in brie. Can you tell me with a straight face that he made the correct choice?"

Yes. After several decades of high-fat-phobia, I realize this strikes people as horrendous, but yes. Your friend did the right thing. (As I did Wed nite when I had a steak topped with gobs of bleu cheese, and a small salad.)

You dip salamie in brie and you get satiated quite quickly. The absence of carbs (save for the trace amount in the brie) keeps your blood sugar stable and you are therefore not ravenous again in two hours. Study after study has shown colesterol and triglyceride levels going down when doing Atkins as directed.

[dj of raleigh]

> I have completed my dossiers on each and every H&R poster for the last 90 days.....
Expect your midnight knock within the next two weeks. Please unlock your doors.
Posted by John Ashcroft

[Equality 7-2521]

"Yes. After several decades of high-fat-phobia, I realize this strikes people as horrendous, but yes. Your friend did the right thing. (As I did Wed nite when I had a steak topped with gobs of bleu cheese, and a small salad.)"

Actually, you are wrong. The friend in question had to get off of the Atkins Diet because his cholesterol went ballistic.

[Born Yesterday]

DJ

Pollution on the net?
Horrors!

[Mona]

Equality 7 writes: "Actually, you are wrong. The friend in question had to get off of the Atkins Diet because his cholesterol went ballistic."

Well, I do not know this person's particular case, but if he was doing Atkins as directed (which would allow-- even encourage -- him to dip salami in brie) and his cholesterol shot up, then he is an inexplicable anomoly re: the studies I've seen, and two people I know whose cholesterol went dramatically down. But the anecdotal info is of limited value. Try looking at the studies abstracted at Atkinscenter.org. Atkins BEGGED people to get lab work done before starting the diet, and then again 6-8 weeks after doing his diet as directed -- he loved trumpeting the results. If he was wrong a lot, I'm telling you, the lawyers by now would have bankrupted his entity, given his bold claims that run counter to conventional (altho the convention is changing) wisdom.

Mind you, Atkins does not say one should eat red meat and cheese morning, noon and night. It is just that you CAN without guilt or harm if otherwise mixing and matching your proteins, fats (butter, cream, olive oil) and veggies, and not gorging.

[Partner of An Atkins Dieter]

I can't use my normal ID name here, on accounta my wife may read this thread later and will yell at me if her identity were even to be hinted at on this topic....though she wouldn't mind sharing an anonymous testimony.

Based on the Atkins book which she's reviewed and continues to keep up with, you drink LOTS of water, and you do LOTS of exercise based on your own physical limitations. In her case that currently means walking 2.5 miles in 35 minutes.

She started in late Oct and dropped 12 pounds first month, eight the second month and eight the third month. From a very above average starting weight.

She is type 2 diabetic. Has used oral meds for 3 years, and injection for a year and a half. (one per day)

During the past ninety days, she has dropped her normal dosage level from 96 units to 56.

Her morning blood sugar runs between 80 and 110.

She is being monitored by a qualified endrocrinologist every 60 days.

My observation suggests that like many health related choices, it may not work for all, but appears to work well for many, when all four of the conditions are being met.

Lower Carb Intake
Steady Water Flow
Regular Vigorous Aerobic Exercise
Monitoring by an MD if other medical conditions are present.

three cents

[Unreal Jean Bart Jennifer Joe]

Some weird shit happening in the threads above...

[Douglas Fletcher]

"I just had a yummy big bowl of ground beef fried with cabbage in butter, salt and pepper."

Is that supposed to be food? Sounds like what I would eat when I'm down to nothing in the fridge & I don't feel like going out for something better.

You know, if you look at photographs of ordinary Americans pre-1950s, you'll see that very few of them were fat. Instead of chasing all these weird diets, people might do better if they ate something like what the average American ate in 1925. Of course, exercise probably had a lot to do with their lack of obesity, since more people did physical labor for a living back then, but we're all supposed to exercise anyway, right?

[Equality 7-2521]

Mona,

Yes, my friend's experience is unusual. But as long as we were swapping anecdotal cases...

I am sure that if you can lose forty or fifty pounds and keep it off on this diet, the health benefits of the weight loss will outweigh (get it?) whatever long term side effects are associated with the diet.

My own weight loss plan is to moderate my eating and get in some cardio and resistance training. I know it sounds insane, but it works for me.

[Mona]

Douglas Fletcher writes: "Is that supposed to be food? Sounds like what I would eat when I'm down to nothing in the fridge & I don't feel like going out for something better."

Hey, I had a craving for "krautkugens"(sp?), this thing my ex's g'ma used to make that was bread dough stuffed with crumbled beef and seasoned cabbage; love 'em. So, I ate it without the bread, was super happy, and kosher w/Atkins. :)But my point was that I do eat veggies on Atkins -- it is NOT just meat. (And I'll bet you don't consider a medium rare, New York strip steak topped by bleu dressing with lots of chunks of cheese, to be scraping the barrel, tho you might shudder in horror at the fat content if you don't understand that on a very low carb this is healthy, especially if you also consume plenty of eggs, fish and chicken.)

And really, Atkins has passed the point of being a fad. The diet tended to be limited to NYC in the 80s and early 90s, but has been around that long. It spread because it is based on sound science, it works faster than low-fat, it has killed no one, has rendered many healthier, and you are not hungry on it. Moreover, maintain w/a diet that is about 100 carbs a day, and you won't gain it all back.

How is Atkins any less reasonable than eating faux sour cream, chips that contain a chemical substitute for fat that causes diarrhea in a significan number of users, and swilling diet pop? At least I'm eating real food. And, I am never, ever hungry, without aid of drugs.

Finally, I note an anonymous poster had told how his partner, who is diabetic, has brought her diabetes into better control on Atkins. This is common. As the medical science demonstrates. This is not homeopathic bullshit.

[late for the boom]

Whats up with this Atkins craze lately, every fast food resturant on the planet is cashing in....

10 years from now there will be thousands of lawsuits launched because of massive liver failure by Atkins diet fanatics.... too much of anything is bad for you, and the massive flood of protien dictated by the Atkins diet will have your liver screaming for relief in a few years....

[richard]

Atkins widow should sue the building owner who is in charge of sidewalk maintenance...Hopefully it is the City and Hizzoner can atone for his crass remarks.

BTW...Anyone else thing that Hizzoner is a complete and utter control freak? oh, and asshole?

[Andy D.]

boom, don't you mean the kidneys? The kidneys will be screaming for relief. It's funny though, with fast food and the Atkins diet. Sometimes they'll advertise a low-fat salad with a breadstick and lots of carbs as diet-friendly and sometimes they'll advertise a new "Atkins-friendly" low-carb product as perfect for trimming those pounds. The fat dieter world ("fat dieter world" is the group of fat people who keep becoming obsessed with different diets; they always remain fat though, but each new diet seems like the utlimate perfect solution to be defended vigorously until it fails miserably and the next thing comes along:)... the fat dieter world was generally concerned with low fat ("Fat makes you fat. Duh") for a long while and now they're generally obsessed with carbs ("Carbs make you fat. Duh"). Soon we'll find out that protein makes you fat (certainly eliminating protein would make you thinner... much much thinner) then maybe the Chinese diet will come to favor as we notice all those thin Chinese people eating lots of tofu, rice, and fish.

But more to the point of this topic, what kind of scumbag would confidently assert that Atkins died from his diet and not from a fall? Even if it seems likely true, there's no need to piss on his grave in such an unnecessary way.

[rst]

An apology? For what, slandering the Holy Name Of Lord Atkins? I wonder if Michael Jackson will demand an apology for every joke we like to tell about fondling little boys. Bloomberg should tell Mrs. Atkins condolences on her husband, and to suck his first amendment.

and if people are not smoking they will probably be drinking more.

Pause and marvel at stupidity...when people aren't smoking inside they go outside to smoke. In NYC in January, when you go outside it's colder than it is inside. Your body responds with an increased respiratory rate to generate heat. This increases the rate at which alcohol is moving into your bloodstream.

Way to go...ban smoking - which might be directly or indirectly responsible for deaths of clientele 50 years down the road - in part to endorse heavier drinking - which will be responsible for killing people tonight, as is the case every night across the country.

Such forward thinking.

[joe]

What a crude, unnecessary, belligerant, arrogant thing to do. I thought Guiliani decided against another term.

[Native NYer]

Yes, Bloomberg is an asshole. He thinks he can run the city like he did his business, doing whatever he thinks is right and not having to compromise.

Oh, well, it's only for another year and a half.

[Dilly]

lftb - okay, but is there evidence of all sorts of kidney/liver failures of people who followed Atkins in the seventies? or eighties? or nineties I mean, Atkins is bigger now, but it ain't new.

[dhex]

is making fun of a fat dead guy who pushed a fad diet so bad? (not ever diet expert has to have a sculpted physique but c'mon!)

his fad diet does seem to have had a minor positive effect, in that it's convinced people to take a closer look at the carbs they eat. of course, it mostly results in guiltmongering and related retarded nonsense.

what people really need to lose weight is a guy screaming at them to do pushups in the rain every day for a few years, until the conditioning sinks in. maybe exercise at gunpoint.

[Pedro]

Just an aside...

I'm diebetic, so I routinely check the amount of Carbs in different foods. I've been noticing alot of "Low-Carb" snacks on the shelves, with "Atkins-Diet Approved" logos on them - so far, none of these snacks have had lower carbs than the popular version. For example, a pack of Reese peanut-butter cup knock-offs had the exact same amount of carbs per 100g - it just came with two cups, instead of three.

[mak_nas]

hizzoner might consider that, as a citizen, he should speak freely -- but as a public official, he should keep his mouth shut when the urge to speculate irresponsibly comes along.

on the diet: i did it for a year, and it worked beautifully. you do have to be somewhat incredibly strict about your carb intake, but it works when done as proscribed. whether it has negative health effects that offset weight loss i can't say -- but i did track my cholesterol assiduously throughout (i was worried) and it did actually (and surprisingly) decline. i've since given it up, but have kept the weight off.

the real revelation about it was the role of insulin in determining your weight -- even if you aren't strictly low-carb, observing the role of simple starches and sugars is essential stuff.

just this month, an article in discover magazine addresses that very point in a non-atkins framework -- finally giving the imprimateur of established science to insulin control.

[Jack]

Pedro, where the heck do you buy your Reese's Peanut Butter Cups? In Denver we've only had the choice of the regular two-pack or the "king size" four-pack for at least several years.

[Argyles]

And why doesn't Reese's bring out the "for a limited time" dark chocolate variety again? Damn, those were good.

[Russ D]

Atkins could watch his diet, but he couldn't watch where he was walking.

[Pedro]

Canada. We can only get 2 cups for the ones with cookie on the bottom and the new white chocolate ones. Normal comes in 3 or King Size (4). Oh, and for the longest time, we couldn't get Taco Bell fries up here - only nachos.

[JSM]

mak nas;
I am curious if you monitored your uric acid levels while on the atkins diet. I have read somewhere, as well as heard from my own doctor, that gout is on the rise among atkin dieters, and/or, gout will be a serious health issue as atkin dieters age. As my doctor put it, uric acid is excreted by the liver to breakdown protein during digestion. If your diet is mostly protein, the liver will have to produce more uric acid for digestion than normal. If your liver produces more than what your kidneys can excrete, gout is in your near future.

Anybody else hear of this?

[mooserack]

i guess this low carbohydrate thing is why italians and japanese are so damn fat. energy system. you burn off more than you intake, you're fine.

fumento.com/fat/faddiet.html
quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lcd.html
drmirkin.com/nutrition/N240.html (merkin... heh)
circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/102/18/2284

congrats, Mark_Nas on the success of your diet. As a fellow weight loss brother, I stand with you in hopes you keep it off and stay healthy for years!!!!!! MUCH RESPECT to you!!!!!!!

I too have lost weight. but i did it with a balanced diet and a bit of exercise. 56 lbs. kept it off for nearly three years now. my diet and lifestyle are changed, I agree with dhex that the discipline is a major part of weight loss. As a hypertensive, however, my MD was very very strict in saying: "stay away from keotosis diets". and since hypertension is rampant, and oftentimes unknown, that's an important factor.

americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=2139

i feel that one of the reasons atkins is so popular is that it's hedonistic: pig out, just don't eat thus and such. it's anti-establishment: ignore your doctor's advice to cut down on fats. ignore the advice to exercise... etc. and due to the water loss, it seems to give a quick fix, something that the eat less and exercise does not give.

sigh.

[Jon Bristow]

JSM:
That's why you're supposed to drink a lot of water on the Atkin's diet. This helps your kidneys out a bunch.

[Andy D.]

Damnit, I just noticed I wrote:

"In humans, *urea* is the end product of nitrogen metabolism and is what is the primary method for excreting excess nitrogen in the urine."

That should say that urea is the end product of *protein* metabolism (nitrogen is the part of the protein that must be gotten rid of).

[fyodor]

Douglas Fletcher,

Uh, so what did the average American eat in 1925?

[guy]

Hey guys, just thought I had to weigh in here (pardon the pun). I have always been athletic and stocky, although carried a few extra pounds for most of my life. Towards the end of college I balloned up to 220 pounds on my 5'8" frame. On adkins I lost 40 pounds in 6 months, and I am still within 5 pounds of that weight 4 years later, and have stopped doing strict adkins. I'll have sugar and soda occasionally, but I am much more likely to consider carbs. I choose whole wheat whenever possible, avoid the fries, eat vegetables and yes, I'll still throw away hamburger buns quite often. Oh, and I scored a 290 out of 300 on my last three Army PT tests. While I won't argue whether or not Adkins is dangerous, (although I think it is not), I KNOW that it would be dangerous to have kept those 40 pounds.

[flamethrower]

mona considers herself to be intelligent. and is on atkins. ha. guess not.

i guess going to the "scientology.org" site will clear that up, too. i guess all those other data that atkins is not "safe and effective" as mona claims. but go straight to their site. yeah, they'll be honest. how about getting yer fat ass on the treadmill and get yer heartrate up? oh, that would actually have secondary health benes, too.

also, notice how she always patronizingly says "X snifed" or "x pontificates" when she disagrees? she was excellent against the lonewacko, but is this the anomoly or is that?

fumento has reasons. check out this damn magazine. the reason a diet works for you is that your energy system burns more than it intakes. period. you could eat the fucking grapefruit diet and it would work too. it is potentially bad for you. it's not more effective. it's not sustainable due to the negative health effects. period.

fed up with this "plathet" of sheeple believing this, and other bullshit things.
so there. ptttffff.

frank "flamethrower" lariccia

[Douglas Fletcher]

"Uh, so what did the average American eat in 1925?"

A lot of home cooked food, for one thing, so they weren't living on McBurgers like so many of our unfortunates do now. Being less affluent than we are now, they probably ate meat as the center of the meal less often, and since most of the cooking was done for the whole family, they would have eaten a lot of meals made up of dishes like stews and soups.

I'm not expert on this & I don't have time to research it at the moment, but I think there were a few things going on back then that kept people from ballooning up -- (1) they didn't have as much money to spend on expensive meats and fatty foods; (2) they exercised a lot more, many as a part of their livelihoods; (3) they didn't have nearly the same amount of leisure time to pursue sedantary activities like watching the boob tube & eating nachos, six hours a day; (4) the meals they ate were mostly home cooked and more balanced than what so many today consider to be a meal (a couple of Hot Pockets for dinner, anyone?); (5) more people walked to work and other places because fewer of them had cars.

Part of the downside of how they ate was that fresh vegetables were scarce during the winter, so they famously had constipation problems during those months from living on little else but meat, potatoes, and baked goods. If you listen to old country music radio shows you'll notice a lot of advertising for laxatives, all with bizarro names ("Man-O-Ree" was one that Charlie Monroe sold on his show, for example).

Another downside would have been that their recipes were heavier than how we cook these days -- they used a lot of lard and the sauces tended to get thickened with butter and heavy cream, when they could afford it.

My main point is that maybe we should look less often for dietary wisdom to the doctors and dieticians, whose theories seem to change every time a comet passes through the solar system, and look at what historically has kept people alive and well. And I would say that for most of the world that has been a balanced, omnivorous diet in tandem with frequent and purposeful exercise.

Now if I could just get off my butt and do it myself...

[Mona]

flamethrower, geez, what'd I ever do yo you? Anyway, I checked the Fumento article at NRO, and it reduces to "people gain the weight back with Atkins if they go back to their former eating habits." Duh. Yup, except for special occasions ya hafta swear off the jelly donuts.

Very interestingly, even fierce critic that he is, Fumento must concede: "In neither NEJM study did the Atkins dieters have increased LDL (low-density lipoprotein or 'bad cholesterol,') and the 12-month one even found a small increase in HDL high-density lipoprotein or 'good cholesterol.' Finally the triglycerides (fatty compounds in blood) of the Atkins dieters decreased. Lower triglyceride levels have been linked to lower rates of heart disease."

Well good golly Miss Molly, does that sound dangerous.

And oh, contrary to what Fumento writes, no, Atkins followers do not choose from "two grocery aisles." Today I had chicken salad, with real mayo, on an avacodo. And scrambled eggs with mushrooms, in butter. Soon, I will add raspberries and a variety of fruits -- sometimes with cream -- to my diet. And then, of course, there are all the desserts one can now buy that are low carb-- had a super Russel Stover's Atkins-friendly "Heath bar" last week. Yeah, as Fumento (or his source) says, this is just like eating only grapefruit.

Oh, I'm suffering terribly -- never being hungry, losing weight, dropping my cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and eating a lot of interesting and great food. And if this works like it did last time, my slight hypertension will ameliorate.

And btw, about getting off one's fat ass and exercising: Atkins preaches that to the heavens. Myself, I do aerobics and kickboxing 3-4 times a week.

The only thing in Fumento's piece that I will quarrel with is the idea that people stop losing after the first few months. Not in my experience, or that of several happy Atkins folks I know-- well-educated, slim, and intelligent all. But on any diet rate of loss slows as the weight comes off. Atkins tells people this.

I dropped 20 lbs on Atkins 2 yrs ago, but the hard thing then was socializing, especially eating out. It has been difficult to find Atkins-friendly menus given low-fat mania that tends to be high carb. That has recently and drastically begun to change. Thank goodness, because I hated trying to watch my weight by monitoring calories and fat -- I was always so dang hungry, especially after working out.

If that Fumento piece is your worst indictment, well, thanks! It rather makes several of my points.

[Mona]

Opps. Upthread I gave the wrong url for Atkins Center, it actually is: atkinscenter.com.

[jon b.]

Thanks Andy. While I was posting that I was wondering if I was transposing the Urea/Uric Acid. Like I said, it's been a long time and I'm not a biologist or chemist (though I am often too lazy to look things up).

[Mona]

Douglas Fletcher, who thinks we'd all be better off eating as they did in 1925, writes: "Another downside would have been that their recipes were heavier than how we cook these days -- they used a lot of lard and the sauces tended to get thickened with butter and heavy cream, when they could afford it."

That's right, they were not eating "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" and half 'n half. Unfortunately, however, they began introducing a lot of wheat, sugar and processed high carb food into their diets. Rolls, pancakes, Hostess, donuts, potato chips, cheeze doddles. Fat was not the thing that started to generate obesity; human beings have lived on butter, cream, cheese and meat for millennia. But they have not always eaten Keeblers and Frito Lays.

Our ancestors in the caves ate meat (when they hunted successfully), nuts, berries and other fruit, vegetables; eventually humanity domesticated the cow and added milk, cream, cheese and butter -- still not a lot of obesity. That is a paradigm for Atkins, a diet that DOES preach exercise.

What has changed in the Western diet in the last several centuries -- when we started getting fatter -- has not been the eating of meat and fat. It has been sugar and other extra carbs: Dunkin'Donuts and Pizza Hut are what we moderns love, and what makes us fat. Our bodies did not evolve to thrive on that diet.

[Andy D.]

It's a complicated matter to look to the past to determine what is best for humans to eat. But for all the changes the human diet went through, obesity wasn't a problem until modern times. Across different modern cultures, levels of fat and protein and carbs varies widely, but trying to connect any of these specifically to obesity is sketchy, since some high-carb eaters are thin (e.g. the Chinese), as are some high fat eaters. It looks to me like obesity only becomes a problem when people aren't physically active, regardless of their fat, protein, and carb levels.

Another problem with looking to the way back machine is that people generally haven't lived all that long compared to us moderns, so worrying about which diets increase the risks of things like cancer and heart disease wasn't the issue it is today.

On another issue, it's been nutritionist dogma that "a calorie is a calorie is a calorie", but Atkins people give me some doubt. They're supposed to test their urine for ketones, the presence of which indicates that they're doing something right... ketones are produced because fat isn't being completely metabolized because there's not enough glucose around. Ketones are high energy molecules, and all that wasted ketone indicates an inefficient system that's wasting calories, which means that, for Atkins dieters, a calorie consumed isn't always a calorie burned.

[Mona]

Andy offers: "[Atkins dieters] supposed to test their urine for ketones, the presence of which indicates that they're doing something right... ketones are produced because fat isn't being completely metabolized because there's not enough glucose around."

These are useful in the beginning to determine that one has, indeed, induced fat-burning ketosis. The strip turning purple calmed me down because, after 20 yrs of obsessing over fat and calories, I had a huge psychological barrier to overcome in REALLY believing that eating cheese, meat and sour cream those first two days was a way to LOSE weight. It seemed almost as nutty as defying the law of gravity by stepping out my upstairs window and expecting not to fall, at the outset.

The strips can also be useful to see how many carbs you can start adding while still staying in heavy ketosis. But for the most part, I've let those go, and Atkins himself says they are optional and to primarily go by lost inches and looser clothing. The ketosis strips are mainly a psychological tool.

Your point about the Chinese is one that has occurred to me. They seem to have rice as a staple of their diet but they are not an obese people. That does, indeed, make me curious.

[Douglas Fletcher]

Mona, you're working yourself up into a dander on this, to the point where you're distorting what people have said. I never said I thought we should all eat the 1925 diet -- I said "maybe we should", in the spirit of raising the question of why our current dietary problems are happening. The fact is that there have been very few cultures that survived long term on anything that resembles the "Atkins" diet -- maybe Eskimos, Laplanders, and the Masai might be among them. Everyone else has maintained an omnivorous diet, with the protein and fat aspect of it varying depending usually on how wealthy they were.

As for the Tennesse Man's comment about there being fat people 40 years ago, sure, but take a look of photos of guys like "Fatty" Arbuckle or "Fats" Waller and I think you'll agree they look almost slim compared to some of the big folks that are walking around these days.

Over and out.

[jon b.]

Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion. I?ve always wondered about a lot of this stuff.

Isn?t ketosis the same thing diabetics have without wanting it? Low glucose for fuel causes the body to start using protein and then fat for fuel. Fatty acids being broken cause ketone bodies to be released and these spill into the urine. Are there any problems from the accompanying acidosis? Are problems associated with diabetes like poor wound healing because of this?

And a calorie may be a calorie in a lab, but I don?t see how it could be in the human body since the processes for metabolizing carbs, fats, and proteins are different. Does the body have a way of storing excess protein? Isn?t it pretty much use it or lose it? I admit I don?t know that much about this stuff, but I?ve always wondered about many of the theories I hear in diets. Adkins and Rotation are the only two I?m familiar having sound physiology that seemed to jibe with what they taught me in AandP. Rotation teaches basic phys and tricks like walking after a high complex carb meal to decrease the efficiency of digestion. Adkins fools your body into thinking you are starving and thus forces it in to fat metabolism (which you body usually only does when there is nothing left to metabolize).

As to the diet of 100 years ago, I imagine it was the diet I ate growing up Life Magazine poor in Tennessee 40 years ago. Vegetables were available year round through home canning. My uncle?s favorite breakfast was a slab of fat about the size of four sticks of butter. And everything that wasn?t fried in lard was seasoned with lard.

And yeah, there were fat people around then too.

[Mona]

jon asks: "Isn?t ketosis the same thing diabetics have without wanting it?"

Nope. This is another common myth about Atkins, tho one that has pretty well fallen by the wayside only to be replaced by others. Diabetic ketoacidosis occurs in insulin-dependent diabetics and some alcoholics, or people in a state of extreme starvation. Diabetics in this state usually have been consuming TOO MANY carbs and thus have way high blood sugar. Ketosis is esentially the opposite of this condition.

Ketosis is the state our ancestors were in when, during food shortages and/or winters with no vegetation (which cointains carbs), they lived off of stored fat. When a person releases ketones, that simply means s/he is consuming his or her body fat; for an overweight person this is a desirable thing. Atkins dieters burn very little of their lean body mass, and minimal water-- contary to another anti-Atkins myth that would have us burning muscle and dehydrating left and right.

I realize I carry the zeal of a convert. Five years ago I openly ridiculed a friend as well as a guy I dated who were into Atkins. Many of the fearful claims made here are the very ones I then spewed.

I was wrong. I'm a skeptic, and generally given to ridiculing homeopathy and all other so-called "alternative" medicnes. Usually, novel medical claims are bullshit, but not always. The medical establishment acted with scorn when germ theory was first introduced: "what, little bugs cause infection and the cure is to wash one's hands?!" Atkins, in my strong opionion, is now just emerging from the same kind of angry establishment rejection of a valid and enormously helpful medical breakthrough.

For some five decades the dogma in the health field has been that high fat is the chief villian in obesity and heart disease. Careers and insititutions are founded on this belief, as is a large low-fat and low-calorie food and dieting industry. These interests are not amused by Atkins, even tho it is safe and it works. And even tho Atkins dieters generally have healthier cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and more stable insulin levels, than non-Atkins dieters.

AGAIN: Atkins began putting patients on his diet in the late 60s and early 70s, and his first book came out in '72. He had researched weight loss for HIMSELF and read all available studies on what works, and found data showing low carb is the key. He took what he learned from respectable medical sources, and lost weight, then so counseled his patients. Millions since then have followed him, and no one has sued Atkins for wrongful death or other harm (or if they have, it has been unsuccessful and is not known of.)

Not that it won't happen: Atkins dieters still do die, and trial lawyers will almost certainly latch on to anti-Atkins hysteria to cobble together a suit -- the Atkins entities have very deep pockets, which is the first and most important determinant of a lawsuit.

[Andy D.]

"What is not true, contrary to what some critics say, is that much or most of the weight loss overall is merely water."

Obviously. When you've lost 20 pounds or so, anyone who claims that it's mostly water is clearly too stupid to bother with. If you'd lost 20 pounds of water, you'd be very dead. Anyway, I think it's fair to say that most of the initial weight loss is water weight, and those who stop losing right there have lost mostly water... I don't know how much water a person can be expected to lose... maybe up to 7 pounds?

[Don]

"The fact is that there have been very few cultures that survived long term on anything that resembles the "Atkins" diet -- maybe Eskimos, Laplanders, and the Masai might be among them. Everyone else has maintained an omnivorous diet, with the protein and fat aspect of it varying depending usually on how wealthy they were."

A little over a year ago, I saw some anthropoligical reports that indicated that, when people shifted from hunter-gatherer or hearding socities to agriculture, there was a noticable drop in health. IIRC, this was based upon the bones of people from ~ 6,000 years ago. This might support the Atkins thesis.

[Andy D.]

Jon B., excess protein is converted into glucose and is definitely not wasted. And we're almost always burning fat, regardless of what diet we're on. Breaking down fat in the presence of plenty of glucose does not produce ketones, because all that glucose alows for the complete breakdown of the fat. Ketones are high energy molecules, and thrifty metabolism will not allow for large amounts of them to be excreted in the urine.

Another thing I'll take issue with is the comparisons of Atkins dieters to non-Atkins dieters... I'm certain that there are many ways to eat that are far less healthy than the Atkins diet (the "typical American diet" comes to mind). But this doesn't say much about what is optimal.

For my personal dietary decisions, what constitues the "optimal" diet healthwise must be balanced by what is an enjoyable diet. The best long-term research I've seen suggests that a very low fat, calorie restricted diet gives the best long-term results. But that's not an option because I would miss out on so many great higher-fat foods (the un-icecream life is not worth living). Similarly, I wouldn't much like even the relatively carb-rich Atkins maintenance diet because there are far too many wonderfully enjoyable high-carb foods (the unpasta life is not worth living). To quote a wonderful Southpark song a little out of context... "and if it gives me cancer when I'm 80 I don't care; who the hell wants to be 90 anyway?" It's good to know what's healthy and it's great to be healthy, but you can take my ice cream when you pry it from my cold dead hands.... what I mean is, it's all a balancing act.

[Andy D.]

One more point on ancient meat-rich diets. The meat those people ate wasn't nearly as fatty as the meat we eat (unless you eat wild-caught meat). I don't know about other meats, but I would guess that our chickens are fatter than natural fowl too. So comparisons to ancient diets run into yet another serious problem.

[Andy D.]

Mona, two things. First, the thing about Atkins dieters' weight loss coming from water loss is true in the initial stages of the diet. Glycogen is the molecule used to store excess glucose (all carbs turn into glucose, in case anybody didn't know) and all that glycogen requires a lot of water to solvate it. Heavily restricting carb intake will drastically reduce glycogen stores and the water that was used to solvate it will be pissed away. This says nothing about most Atkins weight loss.

And the diabetic ketoacidosis is the result of cells not being able to get glucose (insulin allows glucose to enter cells, insulin deficiency or insulin tolerance lead to not much glucose getting into cells). Not having much glucose reults in ketone and acid (can't remember the particular acid... something with a -COOH) excesses. Anyway, the main problem with diabetics comes from the high blood glucose levels... all that glucose in the blood stream is double-plus ungood. I'm not sure how (or if) the Atkins diet solves the ketoacidosis problem, but it certainly seems like this isn't a serious problem.... but I could be wrong.

[Mona]

Andy writes: "I don't know how much water a person can be expected to lose... maybe up to 7 pounds?"

So...I can snap my size 8 jeans again cuz I've lost so much H2O?

[Don]

Andy,

You are probably correct about the fat, but that still leaves a modern Atkins dieter taking in all the nutrients of the ancients as well as some more. Which suggests it is likely much better balanced than a diet high in carbs.

My University anthropology prof told my class about some of the Africans who helped out in his research. After killing an analope, they would cut out the fat (of which there wasn't much), hold it over the fire briefly, and gulp it down. So, even if the game didn't provide much fat, humans could have sought what fat was available.

[Andy D.]

"So...I can snap my size 8 jeans again cuz I've lost so much H2O?"

Mona, this is very strange, but it was just a wild coincidence that my 7 pound figure was exactly the same as you've lost so far... rereading it after noticing your initial comments I admit really sounds like I was taking a shot at you... but I wasn't, sorry about how it came off.

Anyway, it sure is possible that most of your 7 pound loss so far is due to water loss, and yes, losing water can make you fit into your pants better... I'm fairly certain that the Atkins water loss comes about because of the depletion of glycogen stores... glycogen is stored in the liver and in skeletal muscles (I'm not sure about other muscles)... so losing all that muscle glycogen & water means that your muscles shrink some... and since the human body is mostly covered in muscles (the waste area has a lot of abdominal muscle tissue), this sort of weight loss will make you thinner all over.

And Don, the fact that those people ate the fat first indicates to me that it's their favorite part, but doesn't say much about the total fat content of their diet.

[Mona]

Andy writes: "First, the thing about Atkins dieters' weight loss coming from water loss is true in the initial stages of the diet."

This is true, and Atkins says this very plainly. What is not true, contrary to what some critics say, is that much or most of the weight loss overall is merely water. And it also is not muscle.

I agree with you about the need for variety in a diet, and I cannot envision never eating pasta. But then, one can have some pasta at maintenance if one offsets the carbs. Also, as low-carb has started to take over the country, low-carb substitutes are now flooding the market, including pastas, which I have not tried but doubt have yet been perfected to taste really good.

And hey, Mrs. Atkins and hizzoner are gonna sit down for a steak dinner sans potato, him having somewhat apologized: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl

[Don]

Andy D,

A little over a year ago, I saw a study that compared a low carb (Atkins style) diet with a traditional low fat diet. The subjects were middle aged women, and both groups were on a strict calorie limit (the same for both groups). In this study, both groups lost the same amount of weight, but the low fat diet resulted in a significant loss of muscle. The low card diet resulted in essentially no muscle low.

Also, people who seak out fat are likely to have a higher fat intake than those who don't, given the same sources of food.

[arjay]

A year ago I was advised to go on a low carb diet to fend off diabetes, a definite possibility somewhere down the road. My triglycerides were at 353. My diet for some time had been high in complex carbs and fiber and low in fat: a lot of beans and brown rice. After a year on a more or less faithfully followed low carb (my weakness is not be able to give up beer) diet my triglycerides are down to 95. My glucose and LDL are still a little high. I think I'll keep it up, and maybe even give up the beer.

[Andy D.]

Don, I think there were two studies that came out very close to each other that both showed results like what you mentioned. But a handful of studies doesn't prove much, especially since other studies have come to the conclusion that low-fat diets are the most healthy. I just relocated a website I'd been to about a year ago: http://www.drmcdougall.com/

The McDougall is a lot like the Ornish diet (ie very low fat). This website gives multiple citations as evidence for a variety of specific claims. One article (that must have been written over a year ago), contains the following

"The only study published on the most popular high-protein diet, Dr. Atkin's diet, shows the cholesterol goes up and LDL "bad" cholesterol goes up significantly, and HDL "good" cholesterol goes down significantly in women. Free fatty acids levels, which when elevated are associated with heart arrhythmias, are doubled. (J Am Diet Assoc 77:264 - 270, 1980)."

The study cited was a small short-term study (like all these damned diet studies!) but it certainly showed effects opposite to what those two newer studies showed. I'm not sure this link will work, but here's a brief abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7410754&dopt=Abstract

Anyway, I think there's a lot of good information at that McDougall website.

[Andy D.]

Two minor comments... Don wrote: "people who seak out fat are likely to have a higher fat intake than those who don't, given the same sources of food."

True, but do you have an idea of how much fat was in their diet? I mean, if they're maximizing fat intake and getting 10% of their calories from fat... well, you see the point.

And Arjay, I'm curious to know if you've changed any other things that might also help explain the good numbers. In any case, congrats and keep up the good work.

[Douglas Fletcher]

SEND THIS THING TO THE ARCHIVES! PLEASE!

[arjay]

Andy D.

"And Arjay, I'm curious to know if you've changed any other things that might also help explain the good numbers. In any case, congrats and keep up the good work."

No, I can't think of any other changes, except for the fact that after the constant bloated and sluggish feeling went away I became more active. It was strange, I read after I started that the high fiber, low fat diet I was on would "make your triglycerides go through the roof". I had actually been aiming for high fiber, low fat and high complex carbs, and thought this would be generally healthy. I ended up being constantly bloated and constantly craving food: it was the strangest feeling.

Anyhow, the next step is to get together with some of my old rugby mates for a good biweekly workout. Of course after knee and abdominal surgeries I have to be careful. But not too careful, I got a lecture today from a friend that I shouldn't be going deer hunting alone because I'm not a "spring chicken" any more, and something might happen to me out there. I say anything that gets me out hiking in the woods is going to help (and besides it takes me back to my youth).

Mind you, cutting out the brewskis would help. But that barley taste is soooo irresistable.