Service with a Smile

The Nation reports that eBay officials have been bragging about their company's exceptionally "flexible" privacy policy:

If you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and we will provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details--all without having to produce a court order. […] Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys. We'll send them a form, signed by us, and ask them your questions. We will send their answers directly to your e-mail.

How extraordinarily solicitous of them. Though in the immortal words of Shel Silverstein, some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without.

Comments

[Anonymous]

don't use ebay then

[Anonymous]

we need a Department of Privacy right now! use the commerce clause!

[Julian Sanchez]

Err, yes, that was the implicit suggestion behind the post.

[Rick Barton]

"Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys." When the government violates the fourth amendment
they become "bad guys". All of us who use Ebay should demand of them a change in this policy.

[reason is unreason]

in ricks world, when a tipster calls the goverment it is a violation of someone's fourth ammendment.

when a criminal act is witnessed by a television camera, then played on TV and the cops watch it, then it is a violation of the perps fourth ammendement.

but by all means you are a customer, tell ebay what you would like. but you are fool to call this a violation of your 4th ammendment.

[erf]

Nice to see they send the info through email, making sure to not take steps of a secure transmission of info.

Whoa, posting The Nation on Reason.

[The Lonewacko Blog]

"Sullivan's statements were first reported by Yuval Dror in the Tel Aviv-based daily Ha'aretz; surprisingly, they have received no coverage in the US media"

Well, I know it's not the NYT or the LAT, but The Lonewacko Blog pointed to a posting at a wacky "liberal" blog that pointed to the Haaretz article almost four months ago.

[Steve Damerell]

I think that one of the most tiresome things about this blog's comment sections is that people defend the "rights" of companies to piss all over their customers' basic privacy, just because "that's the free market," as though there were not cultural and consumer issues as well as constitutional ones to be discussed in the world.

Julian has an excellent reason to link to this article and discuss: to tell people who are concerned about their privacy to think twice about using eBay. He didn't say that there was a Fourth Amendment issue, he didn't contend that eBay is coercing anyone, he's simply providing the chilling information that eBay's executives apparently don't give two shits about protecting their own customers from government excesses.

Personally, I find this information worthwhile and find it disheartening to see "libertarians" jumping down the poster's throat just to defend an enormous corporation with no regard for the people who create its business.

[Anonymous]

please point to me to the "right to privacy" in bill of rights, i have a nosy neighbors, friends and family whom i would like to prosecute.

[pookie]

i once called the cops on my neighbor after witnessing him beating the shit out of his wife. he was in his back yard minding his own business, I peeked over his fence. another time I called the cops when I found several car stereos in the backseat of a car i was working on. thought they were stolen, I also faxed over the car owners info (address, etc) to the cops. he was later arrested for theft.

guess i should have respected these people's right to privacy. silly me for thinking about the poor wife and the people who had their stereos ripped off.

[Jim]

This is probably the policy of more private organizations than anyone realizes. Certainly, if the cops are not allowed to even ask questions, how can any investigation be conducted? However, if the police demand that such information be turned over, and the party in question does not want to provide it, then that would be a fourth amendment issue unless a warrant is issued.

I bet if you read the privacy policies that all your bank, credit card and other companies you do business with send you (under legal mandate, no less), they probably point out in there that they cooperate with law enforcement authorities in the investigation of a crime. Can this result in abuses? Yes, and it probably has. However unless such abuse becomes common enough (or publicied enough)for the average person to fear it, there won't be much consumer demand for privacy from the government or police. Probably most Americans, when asked, would feel safer knowing the police can get this information if it will lead to catching criminals or especially terrorists. The average person is probably more concerned that their information will be sold to telemarketers than that it may be used by police to infer that they may have commited a crime. In all likelyhood, the former is much more likely than the latter.

[Rick Barton]

"reason is unreason" wrote:
"in ricks world, when a tipster calls the goverment it is a violation of someone's fourth ammendment."

This example is not the same as it is not initiated by the government so of course it't not a fourth amendment violation.

"when a criminal act is witnessed by a television camera, then played on TV and the cops watch it, then it is a violation of the perps fourth ammendement."

Same thing here.

"but by all means you are a customer, tell ebay what you would like. but you are fool to call this a violation of your 4th ammendment."

Its pretty obvious that "reason is unreason" is ignorant, or at least quite confused, about the Fourth Amendment. But, given that handle we might not be too surprised. The Fourth Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

[reason is unreason]

nobody is violating ebay's persons, houses, papers, and effects. and ebay is initiating this, not the government. Thanks for proving my screen-name correct.

[reason is unreason]

and before you whine that the police are initiating may I remind you that ebays says:

"If you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and we will provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details--all without having to produce a court order. [...] Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys. We'll send them a form, signed by us, and ask them your questions. We will send their answers directly to your e-mail."

[Chris Puzak]

I've never used ebay, so feel free to correct me, but couldn't the cops get pretty much all this information by setting up an account?As far as I know, you find out all this information simply by clicking on the user name, which leads me to ask why the Feds even need to go through ebay's officials at all.

[Keith]

Read between the lines:
If law enforcement investigates an EBay customer, EBay presumes their guilt.
"Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys"
Boom - instant bad guys.

Of course, I've read in other reports (I'll try to find a link) Ebay wants to fob off as much of the cost and responsibility for fraud investigation to third parties - law enforcement and the wronged customer - and does not want to get in the position of being everyone's guaranteeor/investigator. Cause, yeah, that costs money and is a liability.

Now, if I were a fraud-investigating organization, and I had to play bureaucratic form games with EBay to investigate complaints that originate within EBay, after awhile I'd say: Ebay, screw this corporate welfare! Police yourself and don't call me!

[Rick Barton]

"and before you whine that the police are initiating may I remind you that ebays says:"

More like you just realized you contradicted ebays
statement in your previous post.

"...ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and we will provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details--all without having to produce a court order."

And when the government does this with out a court order (warrant) they violate the fourth amendment. You might come off as more reasonable if you thought before you posted but as you characterise these concerns as a "whine", perhaps not. Come to think of it, your screen name flatters this site as well as the mag.

[Kevin Carson]

To all the whining defenders of EBay: Yeah, they're a private corporation, doing business with them is voluntary, and yada yada yada. BFD! We're not suggesting the gestapo shut down EBay. We're just subjecting the company to the public criticism and contempt that such filthy fucking police state pigs deserve. The free marketplace of ideas is still a libertarian value, I believe.

Steve: The best solution to this problem is the free market. That means flooding EBay with outraged emails and letting them know why they won't be getting our business. It means spreading the information far and wide, the same way PayPal was subjected to scrutiny for its porcine behavior a few months back. It's also another reason to go on full offensive mode and roll back the police state powers granted to the piggies under Meese, Reno and Ashcroft.

[Andrew Lynch]

Kevin, you characterize a mobilisation that simply fuels Libertarian fantasies. How about a more practical approach the the problem?

[The Lonewacko Blog]

PayPal is "an eBay company." I posted this to freerepublic.com four months ago, and all I got was comments like "why'd you send me to a leftie site? It's probably all lies." I believe I also sent it to the Big Fish Bloggers, but no one moved on it. If you don't like this, try to spread the word, maybe you'll have better luck.

[Kevin Carson]

Anon 0911:

No, fuck YOU! The very fact that you chose the time to post that you did shows an intent to convey a subliminal terrorist message. And the fact that you chose to post an abusive message in a discussion forum under cowardly cover of anonymity shows how libertarian YOU really are. Say howdy to John and Tom for me.

[inthenude]

Let's face it ...

WE ALL STAND NAKED BEFORE THE UNIVERSE.

Time to face reality.

[Kevin Carson]

Andrew:

There's something to what you say, but we have to do what we can with what we have. That means getting the message out to as many people as possible and encouraging public pressure from those who agree with us.

Probably not very effective, given our resources. The only tactic I can think of that would be effective beyond our numbers is terrorism, and I don't support that. If nothing else, it would just intensify repression in the long run.

[reason is unreason]

EBAY INITITATES THIS BY STATING THE POLICY

and...

"And when the government does this with out a court order (warrant) they violate the fourth amendment."

Dear Rick the non-lawyer, the tipster we discussed also passes information without a warrent.

idiocy such as what Rick poops out here only weakens legitimate debate about proper police conduct. that is either your unholy intent or a you are a supreme fool.

btw- yeah kevin calling a company " filthy fucking police state pigs" is healthy dicussion of an issue. thank you for fucking the free market place of ideas.

[Anonymous]

"The only tactic I can think of that would be effective beyond our numbers is terrorism"

fuck you for even saying that

the fact you even thought about it shows how illibertarian you really are

[g-man]

There's a reason WHY the police have to get a court order. It's to protect the citizenry from abuse by bad/lazy/crooked cops. When Ebay hands over personal information "on demand" it weakens our legal safeguards and gives police the power to conduct illegal investigations. Ebay should know better, shame on them.

[Anonymous]

they do need a court order to take any files, papers, etc without ebay's permission. ebay has done nothing illegal and neither are the police. ebay is not a right people! sell your shit somewhere else if it bothers you.