Wealth Breeds Terrorism

Well, not exactly, but Scott Atran's opinion piece in the NY Times surveys some of the demographic information on suicide bombers, and puts the torch to the notion that better jobs and birth control will stop people from blowing themselves up. His conclusion is still a bit We Are The World for my money, but maybe at this point we can retire the untrue Poverty-Breeds-Terror trope once and for all.

Comments

[joe]

Poverty does breed terrorism – not by encouraging a person experiencing it to become a terrorist, but by radicalizing those in a position to draw conclusions about its scale, distribution, causes, and solutions.

Terrorist are just like any other political activist, except more so. They see problems, are motivated to do something about them, and try to find a political program that seems to offer a solution. Does anybody doubt that the crushing political and economic oppression faced by non-elite people in most Middle Easter countries can motivate someone to support radical political movements, sometimes passionately?

[Steve in CO]

Good point(s) Joe. And to preempt anyone that will shill for W., it ain’t because they hate (our) freedom either. God is that particular argument stupid.

[Todd Fletcher]

Fine preemption, Steve – oh wait, you didn’t really say anything.

If poverty is the big breeder of terrorism, explain why Africa isn’t the main source of it. I’m not saying poverty isn’t a facet of the problem, just that the cultural and political history of Islam has more to do with it.

[j.c.]

And then there’s the part where “Terrorist are just like any other political activist” except that terrorism is the step one takes AFTER either giving up on or outright skipping political activism.

[Steve]

Wait…I thought it was driving SUV’s or using drugs or something….

They’re nothing but cold bloded murderers. Instead of wanting to tke your money, they want to take something else you have. To sugar coat it otherwise is bullshit of the highest order.

Political Activists my ass.

[Lefty]

Terrorists are also young, the highest at-risk group for suicide and the easist to manipulate. Mix a few hormones, some black and white idealism, add a dash of oppression and – boom!

[Sven]

I am certainly no fan of W., but I think there’s a strong case that hatred of freedom is indeed al Qaeda’s primary motivation. I wish I could link to the NYT Magazine article on Sayyid Qutb, “The Philosopher of Islamic Terror,” but it’s now in the for fee archives. This will have to do.

Al Qaeda terrorists are intimately familiar with the United States, and have had a taste of the good life. That’s precisely why they hate it. There’s no convincing them, by example or otherwise, that our way of life is better. You may as well try to convince a serial killer that murder is wrong.

Ironically, this line of thought discredits the “domino” theory of Mideast democracy and prosperous economies as a deterrent to the kind of terrorist that struck on 9/11. In fact, if the Qutb thesis is true, such efforts will only make things worse on the terrorism front, and our escapade in Iraq was exactly the sort of reaction 9/11 was intended to provoke.

The primary tool in the fight against al Qaeda is intelligence and law enforcement, not Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[joe]

Wait a minute, Steve-O; you don’t think suicide bombers are motivated by politics? They’re just horror movie thrill killers? That’s loopy.

[fyodor]

Steve,

I think the sacrifice involved in suicide bombing makes it more akin to political activism than typical crime. What typical criminal wants to take his own life??

Oh, but now maybe your blood is boiling cause I appear to be condoning or glorifying terrorism. Well tough shit. I’m here to use my Reason, not to pander to emotions. I know that suicide bombing is a terrible thing. Of course, warfare in general is. But we humans continue to justify it over and over again.

[Anonymous]

What political activist wants to take his own life? None – though I wish a few would…

I’d say religious extremism (ignorance by definition) is A root cause.

If you define our freedom as the rights of women to do the things men do, rights of gays to be gay with each other without fear of death, rights of wierdos to be weird, etc….then, yeah, they are often against our “freedoms”. They are also against our allies that enjoy the same freedoms, and they don’t like us and our allies bringing these freedoms into their backyards by whatever means.

‘don’t see what makes that a “stupid argument”

[SM]

It’s embarrasing to make the same point over and over again so i’ll do this for the flag.

The article says
1. “But poll after poll of the Muslim world shows opinion strongly favoring America’s forms of government” etc, etc, etc.
We have a first admendment which begets separation of Church and State, freedom of religion and so on. Since they like it so much they should have no problem with evangelicals entering Iraq and proseletysing for the sky-god. No ? Well then, allow me to be skeptical about people phoning in pleasant answers to idiotic questions like – which do you prefer a) world peace b) nuclear war
2. “Shows of military strength don’t seem to dissuade terrorists” …
Ian Buruma (i think it was him) has argued that a large part of the problem is due to the arab/muslim world identifying with palestinians. In other words there is a large population with no real stake in the matter but which can afford to be intransigient from a distance on behalf of the palestinians. This matrix did not exist inpost war Germany or Japan.
It’s really hard to accept that solving the Israeli-Palestinian problem that will make life terrific in Egypt & Pakistan. Or for that matter in Birminghan.

[Jim]

I think the main gist of Atran’s argument holds. Yes it’s true that many people in the middle east, esp. younger folks, may approve of our form of government and freedoms. But as he points out, Osama bin Laden and his types certainly do not want our type of government, and want to establish Muslim based theocracy around the world. However the appeal of their message is based predominantly on opposition to the US government’s actions. I do think that if we left well enough alone, the majority of people over there could give a shit less about our heathen lifestyles – certainly not enough to want to commit suicide over it.

I’ve felt this way ever since Sept. 11, and I never bought into the ‘they hate us for our lifestyle’ argument. It may be superficially true but that alone rarely motivates people to act in extreme fashions that are against their own personal self interest. Otherwise you’d see Christian fundamentalists blowing themselves up in adult bookstores. Hasn’t happened because no one is messing with the lives of fundamentalist Christians in the US.

[Anonymous]

Terrorism is more like inner-city crime than anything else, a nasty mixture of poverty, hopelessness, idleness, boredom, envy, rage etc.

What is disappointing is the failure of our governments to do anything beyond trying to cram the lid on all of this.

Al-Qaida is just a very very dangerous gang with turbans.

[fyodor]

Why does this entire debate remind me of the old story of the blind men and the elephant??

[SM]

“Hasn’t happened because no one is messing with the lives of fundamentalist Christians in the US.”

It’s very generous of you to declare this on behalf of christian fundamentalists, Jim. I suggest you turn on the radio and listen to any number of talk shows. They are constantly complaining about how the pagan goverment is interfering with their lives.

[Madog]

SM: You’re right about the complaints Fundamentalists make about the government. The humerous thing is that here in very liberal New Haven, a lot of people I talk to complain about how the government is hijacked by right-wing fundamentalists who use it to force Christianity on everyone. 🙂

[Madog]

I’d say terrorists are the smart ones: they’ve realized the impossiblity of taking on the US militarily. Our recent stroll through Iraq proves that.

[trainwreck]

Terrorism and kamikaze-type operations are nothing new, the causes are as various as the people committing the acts, there is nothing inherently irrational about becoming a suicide bomber (or becoming a grunt in the Marines, for that matter), and these types of activities will be around so long as humans exist. I think most of these people simply believe they are sacrificing themselves to advance the cause of their community, and after all isn’t self-sacrifice a pretty old theme in human culture?

[thoreau]

A few things:

On terrorists and political activists: Yes, terrorists have causes, almost by definition. They act in response to something that they think should be changed. OK, fine, in that sense I guess they are like activists.

But there’s a HUGE difference in methods and mindset between the guy waving a sign and the guy setting off bombs. The difference is so huge that the comparison is meaningless.

On terrorists hating our freedom: I think it’s safe to say that Mohammed Atta would prefer theocracy to a free society. However, why is it that Middle Eastern terrorists direct a huge portion of their ire toward us rather than, say, Belgium?

Face it: Middle Eastern errorists hate the US because we are a powerful nation that plays a major role in the affairs of the Middle East. Reasonable people might disagree over how we should or should not use our power, and reasonable people might disagree over how high of a price we should be willing to pay for exercises of power. Still, the cause-and-effect relationship is clear.

HOWEVER, none of this in any way excuses terrorism. Whatever grievances they have, and whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of their grievances, murder is immoral. There’s no difference between a Palestinian civilian murdered by our “man of peace” Ariel Sharon and a person killed in the World Trade Center. Nothing can justify either death. Terrorists’ actions have zero legitimacy, no matter what they are responding to.

So please don’t start accusing me of sympathizing with terrorists just because I said US foreign policy might be indirectly related to terrorism.

[Sam]

I’ve had a thought, but I’d need answers to questions. For the most part, suicidal terrorists are young, single men. They came from areas where ploygamy is practiced. What is the availability of single, marriagable women in those areas/cultures? Are many of these women sopped up by wealthier practitioners of polygamy?

[ralvarez]

I see you’ve been reading a lot of much evolutionary psychology Sam. I doubt a cause and effect link would be very clear. Besides, how does blowing yourself to smithereens get you any play? Unless… you are smart enough to corral other boobs into blowing themselves… that should raise your status. How many wives does Osama have again?

[Croesus]

I didn’t read all of the posts, so I don’t know if anyone has already made this point, but I suggest that we look at a historical parallel – revolutionary Russia.

(1) From the publication of Alexander Radishchev’s, _Journey from St. Petersburg to Moscow_ in 1790 (often considered the opening salvo in the Russian revolutionary movement) through the (2) Decembrist revolt in 1825 (a group of young, reformist military officers attempted to force the adoption of a constitutional monarchy in Russia by preventing the accession of Nicholas I) through the growth of (3) Russian “populism” (the so-called Narodniki), whose call to arms was Alexeander Herzen’s phrase “To the People!” (the “people,” meaning the peasants, didn’t really respond) which morphed into (4) secret, strictly disciplined terrorist organizations, such as the famous “Popular Will” group, which carried out the assassination of Emperor Alexander II in 1881, and on into the development of (5) Marxism and new populist movements (the left Social-Revolutionaries for example) in Russia, Russian revolutionary thought and action was created by and acted upon largely by the sons and daughters of the affluent, often middling government functionaries, aristorcrats, and the like.

I suggest that the same forces are at work in the realm of Arab radical and revolutionary thought – too much damn free time, etc. for the sons and daughters of fairly successful state functionaries, etc. 🙂

[Mulryan Patrick]

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