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The Right to Be a Sleazebag

Jack McClellan was arrested in Los Angeles yesterday for exercising his First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Well, officially he was arrested for violating a restraining order that forbids him to come within 10 yards of any minor in California. But the restraining order was issued based on his public discussion (online, on TV, and in print) of his sexual attraction to little girls, coupled with the perfectly legal photographs of (clothed) girls that he took in public places and posted on his now-defunct website (which was shut down by the company that provided his server space due to public complaints). McClellan, who has never been convicted of a sex crime, says he has never acted on his impulses and will not as long as doing so remains illegal. According to Fox News, he "said he created the Web site to promote association, friendship and legal, consensual cuddling between men and pre-pubescent girls."

McClellan, then, has not done anything illegal; he has not even advocated doing anything illegal (which also would be protected speech, unless it was intended and likely to result in "imminent lawless action"). He may be perverted (not to mention stupid), and he is probably not an ideal babysitter. But his situation is analogous to that of a neo-Nazi who says Hitler had the right idea and wants Congress to take legislative cues from the Third Reich. Both are despicable and unpopular, but well-loved people who say uncontroversial things have no need for the First Amendment. Were it not for the hysteria about allegedly rampant sexual abuse of children by wandering predators, the parallel would be obvious to everyone (or at least to the judge who issued the restraining order).

UCLA law professor (and reason contributor) Eugene Volokh tells the Los Angeles Times the injunction against McClellan won't "stand up as a means to keep him away from children." He adds:

If he takes pictures of kids in public view, they cannot stop him. He may be a guy to be concerned about, but it is not enough....This man is obsessed with this. He is willing to ruin his life. It is clearly spooky. But it is legal to advocate pedophilia and not act on it.

The Times mentions that locking up McClellan for violating the court order could be viewed as a kind of preventive detention, which the courts also tend to frown on. Notably, the Supreme Court has made an exception for sex offenders, allowing states to lock them up indefinitely in mental hospitals after they've served their prison terms. Ostensibly, this is "treatment," not preventive detention. Unlike the prisoner in that case, McClellan has not been convicted of any sex crimes. But one of the lawyers who sought the injunction suggests that shouldn't matter, asserting that McClellan "is really sick" and "cannot control his impulses."

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Comments to "The Right to Be a Sleazebag":

JF | August 15, 2007, 11:24am | #

Psh, most people don't even realize that pedophilia isn't a crime.

crimethink | August 15, 2007, 11:24am | #

"The dilemma for law enforcement is always whether a particular line has been crossed," said retired Los Angeles Police Det. Jim Brown, who has investigated hundreds of child molestation cases. "When these guys molest children, the law is clear. Where the law gets fuzzy is in the world of pictures and words."

In other words, the law is clear when you actually commit a crime. If you don't commit a crime, then it's fuzzy.

Welcome to the police state...

Dan T. | August 15, 2007, 11:24am | #

Serious question: is the libertarian position that there should be no restraining orders whatsoever?

MP | August 15, 2007, 11:26am | #

And his restraining order is equivalent to one where a Black Panther who is known for writing hate literature is restrained from being within 10 yards of a white person.

Stephen the Goldberger | August 15, 2007, 11:27am | #

i second dan t's question

MP | August 15, 2007, 11:30am | #

Serious question: is the libertarian position that there should be no restraining orders whatsoever?

I have no objection to restraining orders. They simply need to be specific, in that they should be issued in order to help protect one individual from another. They are not a license to evict a person from an area (especially an area the size of CA, as this particular order does in effect).

crimethink | August 15, 2007, 11:31am | #

Dan T,

I don't have a problem with restraining orders in response to a crime having been committed, or someone threatening to commit a crime.

However, in this particular case, the man has not committed a crime or threatened to do so.

Michael Pack | August 15, 2007, 11:33am | #

Dan T,a restraining order needs a complaintant,and some pattern of illegal actions.This case has neither.Truthfully he did everyone a favor by coming out into the light.I doubt he'll get away with much.By the way,most children are harmed by a family member of a close friend.

Abdul | August 15, 2007, 11:35am | #

I blame the prostitots!

Brick Cheney | August 15, 2007, 11:36am | #

How do you avoid being anywhere near minors? Only go out between like 9 and 11 am or something?

Dan T. | August 15, 2007, 11:37am | #

Fair enough. Thanks.

I do agree that this restraining order seems almost impossible to follow if one wants to function in society. Maybe it would be more acceptable if he wasn't allowed to be alone in the same room as a minor or something like that?

thoreau | August 15, 2007, 11:37am | #

This is a guy who is doing everything in his power to get as close as possible to the line between legal and illegal, without actually crossing the line. It pisses me off, because he's basically begging people to shift the line.

Number 6 | August 15, 2007, 11:43am | #

A restraining order prohibiting a person from being within 10 feet of a minor is absurd, impossible to comply with, and probably unenforceable. I do wonder, though, if the "impossible to comply with" part is the whole idea: make it impossible for him not to commit a crime, and lock him up when he does.

Michael Pack | August 15, 2007, 11:45am | #

Remember,this has been tried in Texas in a differant way.The cops were aressting people in bars because they might drive drunk.That's the problem.You must protect the scum to protect yourself.

crap-action-jackson | August 15, 2007, 11:47am | #

John and Ken on KFI have been following this case for months, and have interviewed him several times: they are beginning to speculate that the guy is not actually a pedophile, but that he is using his advocacy of pedophilia to get attention - that is it some sort of stunt or performance.

jb | August 15, 2007, 11:47am | #

Considering that he hasn't assaulted (cuddled?) a child yet, I think McClellan can control his impulses very well.

Seriously disturbing, but not every bad word fits him.

thoreau | August 15, 2007, 11:49am | #

Fair points: A creepy guy who has controlled his impulses is still a guy who has controlled his impulses.

Randolph Carter | August 15, 2007, 11:53am | #

he's pretty dedicated to his work if he's a performance artist. Doesn't he still live with his mom?

Brian E | August 15, 2007, 11:54am | #

This is a guy who is doing everything in his power to get as close as possible to the line between legal and illegal, without actually crossing the line. It pisses me off, because he's basically begging people to shift the line.

I think the solution is to simply sock him one in the goddamn face. Some problems have simpler solutions than involving the law.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 11:55am | #

This guy is a fucking moron and a weirdo. He even LOOKS like a child molester.

Having said that, this guy is fast becoming one of my personal heroes.

Dan T. | August 15, 2007, 11:56am | #

I will say that I would not object to making it illegal to take pictures of children without their parents' permission and then post them on a web site that exploits them as sexual objects.

I mean, as much as folks here mock the "for the children" argument you'd have to be pretty cold-hearted to not think we have some duty to keep young girls from being ranked on websites by their sexual appeal.

wsdave | August 15, 2007, 11:56am | #

crap-action,
"...but that he is using his advocacy of pedophilia to get attention..."

My take as well. Who here will buy his book or watch his documentary about how unfairly the government treats people who haven't committed a crime?

dhex | August 15, 2007, 11:59am | #

"It pisses me off, because he's basically begging people to shift the line."

he's basically begging someone to kill him.

ktc2 | August 15, 2007, 12:02pm | #

Hate him all you like, shun him, repudiate him publically and loudly but till he breaks the law he has the same rights as everyone else.

Cracker's Boy | August 15, 2007, 12:02pm | #

"The Right to Be a Sleazebag" - he also has the "Right to Remain Silent"... and should exercise THAT right, if he's going to exercise the other one.

CB

Cracker's Boy | August 15, 2007, 12:10pm | #

".... A trial date was set for Sept. 11."

I just hope the girl is old enough to date by then.

CB

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 12:15pm | #

If this guy is seriously ill...and will one day break down and hurt a child will it all be worth it? He hurts the child, gets arrested and put away for god knows how long; but that child still gets hurt. As a new parent...I can't fathom it. Keep him away. Bar him from owning any cameras or recording devices. Punch him in the face (which is probably what he really wants to happen as well).
There can't be any laws that would advocate allowing a child (I guess that could go for anyone, but ESPECIALLY a child) to be hurt in the name of upholding said law. I know that there are lines and slippery slopes and all that - but go have a kid; and then know that they can be exposed to this in the slightest way, then get back to me.

Renegade | August 15, 2007, 12:15pm | #

If he is taking pictures of children without permission, isn't that an invasion of privacy? Am I allowed to take pictures of my hot blond neighbor jogging and post it on the internet along with lewd comments?

Dave | August 15, 2007, 12:19pm | #

Damn, we got to Godwin's Law before the thread even started!

Scooby | August 15, 2007, 12:20pm | #

Renegade,
Your neighbor does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy while being bouncy-bouncy in the street. It's a different story if you were peeping in her window.

Michael Pack | August 15, 2007, 12:20pm | #

Yes your allowed to take pics.A whole industry in Hollywood is built on it.Their called tabloids.

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:24pm | #

But his situation is analogous to that of a neo-Nazi who says Hitler had the right idea and wants Congress to take legislative cues from the Third Reich.

Actually, it's more analogous to that of a neo-Nazi who says that Hitler had the right idea and wants gangs of stormtroopers to burn down synagogues, and whose web postings urge his readers to become familiar with the location of the temples, the people who attend them, and their schedules.

He's not just arguing about what Congress should do, but about the goodness of pedophilia. Which is, indeed, perfectly legal. Arguing with your ex-girlfriend in perfectly legal, too. If your pervious behavior, even if not criminal, is enough to convince a judge that you are a physical threat to her, then it is right for that judge to enjoin you from coming within 100' of her.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 12:26pm | #

Michael Pack:

A pedantic aside--you usually have well-informed and intelligent posts. Why the terrible grammar, spelling, and punctuation? Is English not your first language?

I'm not trying to be a dick--I think your posts would be more effective if they were more easily readable.

David | August 15, 2007, 12:27pm | #

I wonder if he's consciously dressing likeErnie to appeal to the Sesame Street age group?

I don't know exactly what should be done about a creep like this guy. I think it's unfair to place a restraining order on him that he can't realistically abide by, but at the same time, I'm uncomfortable taking him at his word that he won't act on his urges so long as his doing so is illegal.

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:28pm | #

BTW, for all the "impossibility" of complying with the restraining order, the guy wasn't arrested because he passed a mother with children while walking down the street.

He went into the one building on a college campus that had a daycare center, where he knew there was a daycare center after having gotten in trouble for lurking there before.

Marcvs | August 15, 2007, 12:28pm | #

bromo98, I understand your feelings, but you can't just eliminate someone's rights just because you don't feel good about it. If we could put people away that make us feel creepy, I would be able to put away all the people that think a law should be allowed to pass as long as you said that "it's for the children."

jtuf | August 15, 2007, 12:30pm | #

It makes much more sense to just outlaw posting pictures of minors without their parents' permission. That restraining order was so broad it was meaningless.

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:30pm | #

David,

A lot of pedophiles relate to children, not only sexually, but in their personalities, maturity levels, and tastes. He probably dresses like Ernie because his personal tastes in clothing are those that the Sesame Street designers chose for their appeal to children.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 12:35pm | #

BTW, for all the "impossibility" of complying with the restraining order, the guy wasn't arrested because he passed a mother with children while walking down the street.

So what? that doesn't change the fact that the restraining order, as it is written would allow him to be arrested by waling down the street and passing a mother with children.

This guy hasn't done anything illegal nor is he threatening to do anything illegal. In fact he is saying that he will not do anything illegal.
Whether you believe him or not, nothing he has done justifies what is happening to him -- regardless of how fucking creepy and stupid you and I personally find this guy.

Micheal Pack | August 15, 2007, 12:36pm | #

I do not type well,I admit and sometimes I'm posting and busy with other work.This is the first site I've ever posted on,I bought a PC about 8 years ago for buisness,not personal.I found this site refreshing and fun.I'll try to do better.In my defence,you will never see me call names or resort to insults to make a point.My job requires the spoken word,not the written.I am good with numbers though.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 12:38pm | #

It makes much more sense to just outlaw posting pictures of minors without their parents' permission.

How does this make more sense?? How does this make any sense?

If I want to post on my blog about what a great neighborhood for families I live in and I take pictures of kids playing at a local park to back up those assertions, I should have to get permission of the parents?

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:40pm | #

ChicagoTom,

I agree, the language should be tightened up to forbid only overt acts, such as approaching children or failing to remove himself if he finds himself in proximity to them. As written, he would be in violation if he turned a corner, bumped into a kid, and immediately left.

The police seem to have used some common sense, and busted him for exactly such an overt act*, but I agree, the common sense should be in black and white on the page, too.

In fact he is saying that he will not do anything illegal. Oh, all right then. Why don't you hire him to baby-sit your children? And no, that has nothing to do with personal feelings about him, but with the likelihood of his behavior.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 12:41pm | #

Michael (Micheal?),

You don't need to apologize, you have no responsibility to anyone to type well. I just wanted to suggest that you could be more effective with better gammar and spelling.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 12:42pm | #

* grammar

I should take my own advice.

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:42pm | #

Anyone who has ever worked as a phorographer knows that you can't run pictures of kids without getting a waiver signed by their guardian. Not even to show how popular the playground is.

Micheal Pack | August 15, 2007, 12:42pm | #

jtuf,If you outlaw posting without consent you'll outlaw the news.Remember pics of Brittney and her baby?

joe | August 15, 2007, 12:43pm | #

*seems to be. We'll see what facts come out at the hearings and trial.

Michael Pack | August 15, 2007, 12:44pm | #

It's fixed.

MP | August 15, 2007, 12:56pm | #

Why don't you hire him to baby-sit your children?

That's simply not a relevant angle. It's perfectly legitimate to socially ostracize this person. It's not, however, legitimate to do that using the power of the state.

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 12:57pm | #

Let's say I decide to become a vocal proponent for the use of marijuana. I go on and on about how good it can be, etc, but I don't actually smoke any currently (based on past experiences). I tell people that they should try it someday and see for themselves how great it can be.

Based on several comments here, I should be hit with a restraining order keeping me at a distance from drug dealers, even though I will never smoke the stuff as long as it remains illegal. How do you even consider such a proposal to be a good idea?

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 12:59pm | #

Or drug users, for that matter.

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 1:02pm | #

Sure Marcvs and I agree on the principle of the whole thing. But we have laws about 'attempted murder' not just for 'murder' and anyone who wants to have a drink in one of several jurisdictions knows that even if they are not above the legal impaired limit they may face sanctions if pulled over.
I just believe that it's OK to prevent a child from being harmed. I don't really care what it's called. And you're right, there is no basis for it. It is a slippery slope. It is unfair to other similar situations. But I don't care. Not when it comes to my child. In this case better to put THIS (I won't even bother to generalize) dumbass who might never commit a crime away (or at least on watch) than to put even 1 child in jeopardy from something that was preventable.

ed | August 15, 2007, 1:03pm | #

I'd add that any over-the-hill mom who dresses her 5-year-old up as a prostitute and drags her from city to city hoping for fame and fortune as a miniature beauty queen is more reprehensible and no less guilty of bad taste and child endangerment than McClellan. America always wants to have its cake and eat it too.

SxCx | August 15, 2007, 1:05pm | #

Christ...all creepiness aside, I find this man's alleged sincerity fascinating. I mean, honestly: could it be, despite our reservations, that this guy simply wants to hang out and "get close" with kids and not coerce them into doing anything they're uncomfortable with?

I've read some arguments that claim pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disorder, and that murdering/abusing child molesters are a completely different breed. The same people claim it will one day be vindicated like homosexuality. While I'm very hesitant to validate any of that, I also can't help but think of the strangely incurable nature of many sexual disorders.

I don't know, surely I'm not the only one who's pondered this?

Fluffy | August 15, 2007, 1:06pm | #

The entire idea of making it illegal to take pictures of children is moronic.

That means that I could essentially bar photographers from public places simply by having some children hang out there.

Want to film a picket line? Nope, sorry, I've got some rent-a-kids in your way. Want to film the police beating up some protest marchers? Nope, sorry, these kids over here don't consent.

Want to take a picture of your own family at Disney World? Nope, no can do, there are kids in the background taking up 3 or 4 pixels of space and they won't sign a waiver.

cls | August 15, 2007, 1:09pm | #

“The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.” H.L. Mencken

Legate Damar | August 15, 2007, 1:10pm | #

MP has it exactly right.

This fellow hasn't done anything. He's only said some very disturbing things. Things would be very different if he had a prior record.

Bromo, you're free to keep your kid(s) away from him, but don't expect the police to do that job for you.

joe | August 15, 2007, 1:29pm | #

MP,

The "angle" of my comment is that there actually is a rational, defensible reason to restrict this person's actions, and not just a feeling that he's icky.

Fluffy,

The kids have to be individually recognizeable for it to be a privacy invasion. You can take shots of crowds of people all you want.

Taktix® | August 15, 2007, 1:35pm | #

In my defence,you will never see me call names or resort to insults to make a point.

Me either, but with the specific exception of Edward, Juanita/Jane, and...

DooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnndeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Fluffy | August 15, 2007, 1:35pm | #

Well Joe, the fact that the kids are in public means that it has nothing to do with privacy in the first place.

In addition, there would be no way to measure "recognizability" in any consistent way. If there's a crowd of people in the background and their faces are visible, that certainly makes for a presumption of recognizability in my book. And I just don't think you should get to control my right to photograph a public place by sticking your kid's ugly mug in it.

joe | August 15, 2007, 1:37pm | #

Lord knows that it isn't insulting to be told that you don't care if your neighbors are being slaughtered.

And as for Eric constantly accusing people of cowardice, I think that's actually a compliment.

joe | August 15, 2007, 1:41pm | #

Fluffy,

Nope. The law is very clear on that point. For a private person - and not a public figure - to go out in public is not the equivalent of granting his permission for his image to broadcast in the media.

In addition, there would be no way to measure "recognizability" in any consistent way.

Oh, please. There is no way to measure "cruel and unusual," "just," or "undue burdern" in any consistent sense, either. So what? Those are all standards in our legal and constitutioanl system.

Reformed Republican | August 15, 2007, 1:59pm | #

but go have a kid; and then know that they can be exposed to this in the slightest way, then get back to me.

I have one kid. I am about to pick up 2 more by marriage. Is my opinion relevant now?

As far as anyone knows, this guy has done nothing to break the law. I would not let him be around my kids, but he should not be thrown in jail for what he says or thinks.

Fluffy | August 15, 2007, 2:03pm | #

"Nope. The law is very clear on that point. For a private person - and not a public figure - to go out in public is not the equivalent of granting his permission for his image to broadcast in the media."

Cite me the law, please. And in New York State or some state other than California, which doesn't count.

Ayn_Randian | August 15, 2007, 2:03pm | #

don't really care what it's called. And you're right, there is no basis for it. It is a slippery slope. It is unfair to other similar situations. But I don't care. Not when it comes to my child.

So, basically you're OK with liberty, except for your personal hobby horse, in which case, the rules go out the window.

Really, what you meant was "I don't give a shit about liberty at all."

Just wanted to get that cleared up.

Taktix® | August 15, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Cite me the law, please. And in New York State or some state other than California, which doesn't count.

Fluffy,

I can't cite the law right this second, but I do remember being to this in photojournalism classes in college. Something related to libel or public defamation. Or something.

If only I could remember more than 10% of what I learned in class...

Taktix® | August 15, 2007, 2:10pm | #

Correction: ...remember being told this...

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 2:11pm | #

:) i guess....

I'm stirring the pot here, I know...but I just can't come down on this guys' side whatsoever. He's not just saying "maybe it's ok to be attracted to kids" he's proving thru his actions that he will take pictures and post them and says it's ok to come into contact with kids not your own in a non-sexual way ("snuggling"). If he truly is sick, someone is going to get hurt. And the position on this board is as soon as he hurts someone THEN we can lock him up, but only the individual parents can prevent it from being their kid. Sorry - that's the easy way out.
I'd love to get all upset about infringements on liberty, but not in the case of people hurting kids in a sexualized way. Call it a carve out or whatever you want, I won't lose any sleep that this guy is off the streets or is being watched by the police state.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 2:17pm | #

Well, bromo, that's why you are the exact kind of person who is an enemy of liberty. You are so smugly proud of it, too, which just shows that you are more committed to emotion than reason.

It's people like you who chip away at all of our liberties, year after year, hyped up by idiotic media reports and not thinking but only reacting.

It would be suprememly just if you eventually got arrested for some innocent act like taking pictures of your own kids and their friends for breaking some "zero-tolerance" liberty-destroying law that you yourself supported.

Tacos mmm... | August 15, 2007, 2:27pm | #

In this case better to put THIS (I won't even bother to generalize) dumbass who might never commit a crime away (or at least on watch) than to put even 1 child in jeopardy from something that was preventable.
The number one cause of death among children ages 3-14 is motor vehicle accidents, with almost 2,000 children killed every year (along with almost 40,000 adults). Is your freedom to drive to the grocery store whenever you want worth the life of one child, much less 2,000?

Dan T. | August 15, 2007, 2:28pm | #

Well, bromo, that's why you are the exact kind of person who is an enemy of liberty. You are so smugly proud of it, too, which just shows that you are more committed to emotion than reason.

In bromo's defense, the notion that liberty is the most important thing in the world is also as much an emotional idea as a reasonable one.

MP | August 15, 2007, 2:30pm | #

Sorry - that's the easy way out.

The easy way out is to shoot him in the head.

The hard way out is to tolerate his legal actions.

jh | August 15, 2007, 2:31pm | #

they are beginning to speculate that the guy is not actually a pedophile, but that he is using his advocacy of pedophilia to get attention - that is it some sort of stunt or performance.

A pedophilia troll? The Dan T. of pedophilia?

(My apologies in advance to Dan T. for the snarkiness, who seems to be trying harder to ask intelligent questions lately.)

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 2:32pm | #

Dan, I don't recall giving you permission to address me.

joe | August 15, 2007, 2:33pm | #

Violating a protective order is illegal.

jh | August 15, 2007, 2:39pm | #

I will say that I would not object to making it illegal to take pictures of children without their parents' permission and then post them on a web site that exploits them as sexual objects.

I mean, as much as folks here mock the "for the children" argument you'd have to be pretty cold-hearted to not think we have some duty to keep young girls from being ranked on websites by their sexual appeal.


So, Dan T., you advocate making it illegal to take pictures of fully clothed young girls/women in public places and then posting those pictures on a website and using speech protected by the First Amendment to rate their attractiveness? While such a website seems creepy, it's not half as creepy as the idea of giving politicians and bureaucrats the ability to further chip away at free speech, instead of, oh, parents making sure their children are modestly and unprovocatively dressed before going out into public?

But, kudos for asking a non-trollish question, Dan.

Sam McManus | August 15, 2007, 2:40pm | #

I feel bad for pedophiles, especially the ones who don't act on their impulses. Whenever I hear anything about pedophiles, all I can think of is how glad I am I don't get those impulses in the first place. I'm sure they feel their urges as strongly as I feel my urges for grown ass women, and if I happened to get the impulses that made me the lowest of the low and a pariah, I'd feel pretty cursed.

MP | August 15, 2007, 2:41pm | #

Violating a protective order is illegal.

Violating an ill-conceived protective order is moral.

Dan T. | August 15, 2007, 2:46pm | #

So, Dan T., you advocate making it illegal to take pictures of fully clothed young girls/women in public places and then posting those pictures on a website and using speech protected by the First Amendment to rate their attractiveness? While such a website seems creepy, it's not half as creepy as the idea of giving politicians and bureaucrats the ability to further chip away at free speech, instead of, oh, parents making sure their children are modestly and unprovocatively dressed before going out into public?


I guess the answer is yes, and I find it odd that somehow this whole thing is the parents' fault, once again.

Not all speech is protected by the First Amendment, and I'd submit that the protection of children in this case supercedes the right of adults to publicly objectify them.


But, kudos for asking a non-trollish question, Dan.


Thanks, and in return I appreciate the fair treatment from everybody I've received here in recent days.

jh | August 15, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Nope. The law is very clear on that point. For a private person - and not a public figure - to go out in public is not the equivalent of granting his permission for his image to broadcast in the media.

joe, care to post the exact language of this law you say is so very clear, and where it can be found in the law? Because you'll pardon me if, based on your past assertions, I don't take every assertion you make on face value. How does this alleged law distinguish between a private person and a public person? Is there some sort of sharp, unambiguous dividing line between the two written into law?

Egon | August 15, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Here's something no one seems to mention when the discussion turns to "taking pictures and posting them online": What about Flickr.com and Snapfish et al? Should it be illegal for me to post pictures of my own children on a publicly accessible website, on the basis that someone MIGHT jerk off to them?

joe | August 15, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Fluffy,

What Taktix said, except I lack his breadth of knowledge.

MP,

Violating an ill-conceived protective order is moral. The phrase you used was "tolerate his legal actions." His approach to that daycare center (if the facts are as prestented - I learned my lesson about that when the Brits assassinated that innocent Brazilian guy) was not legal.

joe | August 15, 2007, 2:55pm | #

jh,

If you're that curious, look up the law yourself. You can find out I'm right about this widely known fact that is brought up in first-year journalism and law classes, or not. Whatever.

How does this alleged law distinguish between a private person and a public person? Is there some sort of sharp, unambiguous dividing line between the two written into law?

I don't recall the language used in the law. I believe it is a common-sense definition, comparable to "just compensation" or "cruel and unusual." A public officeholder or moview star is presumed to be a public figure, while some ordinary guy and his daughter are not. A judge is presumed to be a public figure.

joe | August 15, 2007, 2:56pm | #

Why don't you look it up and let us know what you find, jh.

David | August 15, 2007, 2:56pm | #

instead of, oh, parents making sure their children are modestly and unprovocatively dressed before going out into public?

Jim Bob | August 15, 2007, 2:57pm | #

you are more committed to emotion than reason

I don't agree with bromo at all, but I don't consider the above statement to be any sort of insult. Relying exclusively on emotions in order to perceive the world is a silly way to live, but so is relying exclusively on reason.

David | August 15, 2007, 2:58pm | #

instead of, oh, parents making sure their children are modestly and unprovocatively dressed before going out into public?

jh,

What would even mean in the context of a pedophile? It's not the clothes that they're attracted to.

Apologies for the double post, my question disappeared the first time.

MP | August 15, 2007, 2:59pm | #

The phrase you used was "tolerate his legal actions." His approach to that daycare center (if the facts are as prestented - I learned my lesson about that when the Brits assassinated that innocent Brazilian guy) was not legal.

It was only illegal because a judge decided to issue an ill-conceived protective order because he was intolerant of this pedophile's legal actions.

jh | August 15, 2007, 3:00pm | #

joe -- When I ran for office, I took pictures of my kids playing with other kids, and put them in campaign brochures. According to you, this is illegal, since I didn't get the consent of the other parents. Please explain why my opponent, who wasted no opportunity to hammer me with hit pieces on the flimsiest pretext, didn't go after me for this alleged violation of the law that you haven't yet given a reference to?

I can see a law prohibiting the commercial use of such photos of children, such as pasting them on soup can labels to move soup, but on a site that is basically advocating a change in the laws (albeit a really creepy and disturbing change)?

I mean, this guy isn't half as creepy as NAMBLA.

And yes, I do have young children, who I make a point of not letting out in public scantily dressed.

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 3:03pm | #

The easy way out is to shoot him in the head.

The hard way out is to tolerate his legal actions.


Unfortunately the easy way out comes with too high a price.
The reason that I think the easy way out is to tolerate him is because it requires no thought. "Oh, well, it's speech so we can't go against the first amendment." That's a cop-out.
I go back to the fact that a child has to get hurt before something can be done to prevent this guy from harming more. One child harmed in this manner is too high a price.
Why is it wrong to think about a way in which children can be protected from someone like this while the intentions of free speech and freedom are upheld?

jh | August 15, 2007, 3:05pm | #

instead of, oh, parents making sure their children are modestly and unprovocatively dressed before going out into public?

jh,

What would even mean in the context of a pedophile? It's not the clothes that they're attracted to.


I'm not familiar with the psychology of pedophiles, but common sense should tell you that allowing your kids to go out tarted up and dressed like Bratz dolls might make them more of a target for pedophiles than if they were dressed modeestly. At least, that is the working assumption I'm using when I decide whether my kids are dressed appropriately.

Jim Bob | August 15, 2007, 3:06pm | #

McClellan isn't someone who needs to be around children, but if I read all of this correctly he hasn't committed a crime, besides violating the impossible-to-enforce restraining order placed on him, nor has he advocated committing a crime.

I'm sure an actual lawyer could offer a more compelling opinion, but it seems to me that since this guy hasn't broken any laws regarding the assault of children, keeping him locked up on the pretense that he may at some time hurt a child is on shaky legal ground at best.

"Save The Children™" hysteria will reach nuclear meltdown level on this one, though- I am almost sure of that.

LibertyPlease | August 15, 2007, 3:10pm | #

"Remember,this has been tried in Texas in a differant way.The cops were aressting people in bars because they might drive drunk.That's the problem.You must protect the scum to protect yourself."

This pre-crime effort was well intentioned also, and it took witnessing the disastrous results before anyone took action against it.

Jim Bob | August 15, 2007, 3:12pm | #

One child harmed in this manner is too high a price.
Why is it wrong to think about a way in which children can be protected from someone like this while the intentions of free speech and freedom are upheld?


Here we go. Look, you can scream and rant that's it's For the Children™ all you want. It is unreasonable to preemptively punish people for crimes they might commit, and it is unequally unreasonable to assert that laser-guided laws will be able to restrict activities like taking pictures of children in public places to an extent that only those people who have a prurient interest in viewing such pictures will be encumbered by the law.

I go back to the fact that a child has to get hurt before something can be done to prevent this guy from harming more.

Did you miss the part about how McClellan hasn't, you know, actually put his hands on a child or attempted to do so?

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 3:14pm | #

"Save The Children™" hysteria will reach nuclear meltdown level on this one, though- I am almost sure of that.

bromo is already there, dude.

MP | August 15, 2007, 3:19pm | #

The reason that I think the easy way out is to tolerate him is because it requires no thought. "Oh, well, it's speech so we can't go against the first amendment." That's a cop-out.

Although the First Amendment is the highest protector of this person's rights (in this instance), the position is not simply "Well, he must be defended because the Constitution says so."

The position, in fact, is that a person shouldn't be prosecuted for what they might do, particularly when that person has never voiced an intention of actually doing it. It's one thing to arrest someone for conspiracy to commit murder when they've contracted with an assassin. It's quite another to arrest them for posting "I hate my wife".

Jim Bob | August 15, 2007, 3:20pm | #

bromo is already there, dude.

You're right about that. Perhaps it can be stymied, though. I hope.

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 3:25pm | #

bromo,

Since turning 18, or whatever the age of consent in your state is, have you ever found a 16 or 17 year old girl attractive? If so, did you have sexual fantasies or thoughts about this person? If you have, you should be arrested for what you might have done.

poco | August 15, 2007, 3:28pm | #

Everybody knows this guy's name, face, whereabouts, and predilections now, which is helpful in avoiding him.

The advantage of letting idiots speak their piece is easier identification of said idiots.

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:33pm | #

On the issue of photos in public, wasnt there laws being passed a few years ago to ban "upskirt" and "downblouse" photos? They were considered "public" photos and were okay to publish before the laws changed (at least in some places). Based on vague memories of that, I would say that publishing (non-commercially) photos of people in public would be legal.

But, unlike the rest of you challenging each other, I will try to actually google for an answer.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 3:34pm | #

The "angle" of my comment is that there actually is a rational, defensible reason to restrict this person's actions, and not just a feeling that he's icky.

joe,

Please tell us what the rational defensible reason to restrict this person's actions is?

You snark at the "he said he won't act upon it" comment, but as of right now I find this guy pretty fucking credible.

He hasn't been dishonest about anything. In fact it is his over the top honesty that seems to have gotten him in trouble. He admits that he has certain feelings -- and we believe him - but when he says he wont act on them while acting on them would be illegal -- all of a suddent he guy is a liar.

Based on what exactly is his credibility a question?

Basically you and the other people who think it's ok to slap a restraining order on this guy are advocating for prosecution of thought crimes.

The guy has no record of doing anything sexual with children and hasn't even been accused of ever harming any children. Yet because he acknowledges that he has certain feelings he should have his liberty infringed upon. Why exactly? Because his beliefs/feelings evoke an emotional response that makes you feel icky.

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:34pm | #

First result (still searching to verify):

The laws regarding public photography have always been a gray area. In the United States, photographs that are taken for editorial use in a public place generally enjoy Constitutional protection under the right of free speech. There are exceptions, however. Here are just a few of the gray areas:

* While taking a picture in a public place is almost always legal, any public place can become a secured emergency area in the event of a police crime scene, disaster, fire or riot. In this case, photography is not legal without permission.

* Even editorial photographs can come under scrutiny when a caption is added. If the caption implies something false or slanderous about the person in the photo, then it is no longer protected. And the gray area becomes even grayer when you talk about photos as fine art. That is especially true if the artist intends to sell the photograph.

* Photographers cannot take pictures of a person in a public place without permission if that photo is going to be used to promote any goods or services.

Cracker's Boy | August 15, 2007, 3:38pm | #

Has NOBODY seen Minority Report?

CB

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:38pm | #

result 2:


You may need permission to photograph people due to state laws giving individuals privacy and publicity rights.

Most states in the US recognize that individuals have a right of privacy. The right of privacy gives an individual a legal claim against someone who intrudes on the individual's physical solitude or seclusion, and against those who publicly disclose private facts. Unless you have permission, avoid publishing or distributing any photo of an individual that reveals private facts about the individual (particularly if revealing those private facts might embarrass the individual).

Almost half the states in the US recognize that individuals have a right of publicity. The right of publicity gives an individual a legal claim against one who uses the individual's name, face, image, or voice for commercial benefit without obtaining permission. In case you are wondering how the news media handle this, newspapers and news magazines have a "fair use" privilege to publish names or images in connection with reporting a newsworthy event.

Be particularly careful about celebrities. Using a photograph of a celebrity for your own commercial gain - for example, posting a photo you took of Clint Eastwood on your business's marketing material or Web site - is asking for a lawsuit, even if you took the photograph when you ran into Clint on a public street.

Commercial photographers avoid right of publicity/privacy lawsuits by obtaining photographic releases from people shown in the their shots. If you are considering selling your photos or using them on your Web site, you may want to do the same. The Multimedia Law and Business Handbook contains a sample release. Experienced performers and models are accustomed to signing these releases.

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:42pm | #

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=25&sid=619267

Above is a link to a 2005 story about MD banning upskirt photography, because under then current state law, women had no expectation of privacy when in public - thus an upskirt photo was legal.

It mentions that a bunch of other states had recently passed similar laws.

joe | August 15, 2007, 3:43pm | #

jh,

Your opponent probably knew as little about this law as you do - which is not surprising, it's not something that is generally applied to regular people. Nonetheless, if any of those children's parents had objected, they could have forced you to stop distributing your literature, and the courts would have enjoined you from doing so if she petitioned them to.

ChicagoTom,

Please tell us what the rational defensible reason to restrict this person's actions is? The likelihood that he will molest a child.

Proclaiming his intentions is all well and good, but we're talking about a person's sexuality here. Do you think you could go your whole life without trying to get laid? My church has a group that set out to do just that. It didn't turn out very well.

You can keep saying it's about my feelings, that won't make it true. I don't hate Kodiak bears, either - nonetheless, it is a good idea to take care around them. Bears eat stuff. Men try to have sex.

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Oh, and before someone slaps a restraining order on me, I dont know why I know creepy stuff like that.

joe | August 15, 2007, 3:44pm | #

Basically you and the other people who think it's ok to slap a restraining order on this guy are advocating for prosecution of thought crimes.

No. Absolutely wrong. He should only be prosecuted if he commits an overt act, including the violation of his restrainin order.

Cracker's Boy | August 15, 2007, 3:45pm | #

Robc - I don't think you need to look much more. I see motion pictures of children on the local news every night, broadcast without parental permission.

I doubt even Mythbusters would waste an episode on trying to dismiss the "can't show a picture of a child without parental consent" myth.

CB

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 3:49pm | #

robc, thanks for the clarification. I was pretty certain that it was basically what you stated, but was too lazy to do the research.

joe, however, should do some research before he says "that is the law...look it up yourself"...or something like that.

robc | August 15, 2007, 3:50pm | #

jimmy,

I just work under the assumption that joe is wrong. On occassion it fails, but when lazy, its a good assumption.

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 3:51pm | #

joe | August 15, 2007, 3:44pm | #

Basically you and the other people who think it's ok to slap a restraining order on this guy are advocating for prosecution of thought crimes.

No. Absolutely wrong. He should only be prosecuted if he commits an overt act, including the violation of his restrainin order.
You're missing the point here. We're arguing the merits of the restraining order. The fact that he violated it is secondary.

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 3:57pm | #

Jim,
Never said he did, and in fact this feels so much like a stunt that it's unlikely he will.
But how is this different than if someone said to their therapist that they were going to commit suicide? That person is duty bound to try and prevent that patient from hurting themselves. Yet no one is duty bound here to see to it that this guy doesn't hurt anyone. (obviously the courts do by issuing the TRO - but I was referring more to posters here)

My point is that no one wants to even think about it, wants to try and figure out if there is something to do with this guy- other than wait and say that the Free Speech trumps all.
I appreciate the debate Jim - really I do. :)

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 3:25pm | #

bromo,

Since turning 18, or whatever the age of consent in your state is, have you ever found a 16 or 17 year old girl attractive? If so, did you have sexual fantasies or thoughts about this person? If you have, you should be arrested for what you might have done.

OK - I'll bite.
I didn't see where the girls were identified as late-teenagers, I saw "little girls" and "children", while acknowleging that yes, a 16 year old girl is by definition a child.
He has posted on a website about how he likes to watch little girls, and posts where good places are to do this activity. If I did in fact at some point do a double take at a 17 year old girl, I certainly didn't post it publicly (umm...except for right now I guess) nor did I give a location and encourage other adults to congregate and do the same thing. Nor did I say what a tradgedy it was that I was not allowed to come into physical contact with them, or talk openly about it.
So yes, I do see a difference. A thought is just that. But this guys' thoughts have also had associated actions - the websites, the posting of photos, the visiting of a "child development building". Cat's out of the bag. Someone should have the power to find out whether this guy has the ability to harm children.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 4:02pm | #

Someone should have the power to find out whether this guy has the ability to harm children.

It's statements like the above that make you, and people like you, so very dangerous, bromo. You would blithely hand power to "someone" to "protect the children".

Good move.

Scott | August 15, 2007, 4:07pm | #

bromo,

Is it really that hard to understand that even if it is "for the children" punishing someone for a crime that they haven't yet committed is wrong. Of course you have to wait for a child to be harmed before you can punish someone for doing it, to suggest otherwise is insane. Should we also arrest a random sample of drivers and gun owners since it can be proven that a certain percentage of both will eventually harm a child. I don't even understand your logic that somehow it is the duty of the state to preemptively arrest and convict someone of a crime in order to protect the children that they have not yet harmed.

Egon | August 15, 2007, 4:16pm | #

I had this same discussion with my wife. She took the same position as Bromo.

joe | August 15, 2007, 4:17pm | #

Um, nothing you posted contradicted me.

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 4:18pm | #

Did you slap some sense into her, Egon?

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 4:19pm | #

Do you think you could go your whole life without trying to get laid? My church has a group that set out to do just that. It didn't turn out very well.

So your position is that anyone that has fantasies of something illegal will not be able to avoid acting on that fantasy? And those people who should have their lives restricted because of what their fantasies are?

Let's assume I have had fantasies or get turned on at the thought of raping someone (in fact there are a few simulated rape porn movies out there -- and there are people who are turned on by the fantasy of raping someone). Would that justify me being restrained from coming within 10 yards of women?

You can keep saying it's about my feelings, that won't make it true. I don't hate Kodiak bears, either - nonetheless, it is a good idea to take care around them. Bears eat stuff. Men try to have sex.

You can keep denying that it's about your feelings all you want, but in the end it boils down to you feel that men have an inability to control themselves and thus you believe that people should be punished for having thoughts you find icky.

No. Absolutely wrong. He should only be prosecuted if he commits an overt act, including the violation of his restrainin order.

joe stop being disingenuous, you know damn well that the restraining order is the violation of his liberty. It all started with that. You agree that the restraining order should not have been issued, no? If so then the rest of your talk is nonsense.

So again I ask you to tell me what he did that justifies the restraining order.

MP | August 15, 2007, 4:20pm | #

I don't even understand your logic that somehow it is the duty of the state to preemptively arrest and convict someone of a crime in order to protect the children that they have not yet harmed.

There are two primary examples to compare this to.

The first are Nanny laws such as DWI and Cell-phone bans, which are justified solely on risk management. Those laws are all about pre-emption. Of course, DWI and cell-phone bans have concretely identifiable signs of risk adverse activity. Being a pedophile is not as concretely identifiable (except in this particular case).

The second is regulatory actions done in the name of safety, which makes it a crime to disobey the regulatory action.

I disagree with both. But one can't say that preemptive laws are not deeply rooted in our current society.

Take Iraq, for instance...

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 4:20pm | #

Nope. The law is very clear on that point. For a private person - and not a public figure - to go out in public is not the equivalent of granting his permission for his image to broadcast in the media.
joe | August 15, 2007, 4:17pm | #:

Um, nothing you posted contradicted me.
Really? Care to explain how it did not contradict you?

bromo98 | August 15, 2007, 4:25pm | #

Last post for the day...
...your kid gets harmed by someone who has posted and described his intentions to do so. People knew and no one did anything about it because it was protected speech. Even when you have done all you can to educate and protect your kids without smothering them, this can happen, it does happen.
Would you have moved heaven and earth to prevent it from happening? I would.

Cheers gang...it has been a very good debate to be a part of.

jimmydageek | August 15, 2007, 4:33pm | #

You seem to be conflating the issue at hand, bromo. This guy did not announce his intention to molest a child. He simply said that he would if it were not illegal. Big difference.

Episiarch | August 15, 2007, 4:33pm | #

Even when you have done all you can to educate and protect your kids without smothering them, this can happen, it does happen. Would you have moved heaven and earth to prevent it from happening? I would.

So even when you have done all you can to educate and protect your kids without smothering them, and one of them dies in a car accident, do you now advocate banning all cars?

Your argument makes no sense. According to you, moving heaven and earth includes violating the Constitutional rights of other people, and you are just hunky dory with that.

You loving and caring about what happens to your children does not give you license to arbitrarily decide when other people's lives should be curtailed.

I feel like I am arguing with a wall, because evrything about your demeanor says that you feel that worrying about your children is some sort of bulletproof armor from responsibility to justice and liberty. Jim Bob was only part right--Save The Children isn't nuclear, it's depleted uranium.

smacky | August 15, 2007, 4:45pm | #

Dammit...I just lost a really long post that addressed, like, half the people on this thread here individually. I'm not sure I have the strength in me to comb through all of the comments here again and retype all of my thoughts. I'll do my best...


McClellan, then, has not done anything illegal; he has not even advocated doing anything illegal

Yeah, but I bet he could be prosecuted in a civil court of law concerning those photos on his website.

And his restraining order is equivalent to one where a Black Panther who is known for writing hate literature is restrained from being within 10 yards of a white person.

MP,

No, the Black Panther would have had to write a manual about where to find all of the white people so that he could stalk them and follow them around. It's clearly harassment. Someone can harass a group of strangers.

John and Ken on KFI have been following this case for months, and have interviewed him several times: they are beginning to speculate that the guy is not actually a pedophile, but that he is using his advocacy of pedophilia to get attention - that is it some sort of stunt or performance.

crap-action-jackson,

I don't think it's a stunt. He is definitely a pedo. He is just unusually honest, which is good for the community -- that way they know who to avoid. Ostracism can be a beautiful thing sometimes.


Having said that, this guy is fast becoming one of my personal heroes.

ChicagoTom,

Why? Also: what's wrong with you?


I will say that I would not object to making it illegal to take pictures of children without their parents' permission and then post them on a web site that exploits them as sexual objects.

Dan T.,

I agree with your sentiment. Many pedos like innocent -- or even fully clothed -- photos of children. Presumably, the innocence is a turn on for them. Consequently, that's what makes it all the more difficult to make an easily enforceable rule against this sort of thing.


I mean, as much as folks here mock the "for the children" argument you'd have to be pretty cold-hearted to not think we have some duty to keep young girls from being ranked on websites by their sexual appeal.

Exactly. I find it hilarious that people throw out the old "for the children" snarky retort when, well, it actually is about the children this time.

he's basically begging someone to kill him.

dhex,

Exactly. I would wager that someone will sooner put him out of his misery before he ever publishes his first anti-government documentary. Good riddance.

If he is taking pictures of children without permission, isn't that an invasion of privacy? Am I allowed to take pictures of my hot blond neighbor jogging and post it on the internet along with lewd comments?

Renegade,

It is arguably an invasion of privacy. There are lawsuits about this kind of thing all the time.

I mean, honestly: could it be, despite our reservations, that this guy simply wants to hang out and "get close" with kids and not coerce them into doing anything they're uncomfortable with?

You're a troll, right? Please tell me you're a troll. It's comments like these that make the internet chillingly disturbing.

and says it's ok to come into contact with kids not your own in a non-sexual way ("snuggling")

Er, "snuggling" can most certainly have sexual overtones (or undertones, take your pick). In fact, "snuggling" is often a prelude to foreplay.

I mean, this guy isn't half as creepy as NAMBLA.

Are you fucking kidding? This guy has creepy for breakfast, second breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner, and for midnight snack.

The position, in fact, is that a person shouldn't be prosecuted for what they might do, particularly when that person has never voiced an intention of actually doing it.

MP,

You obviously did not click on all of the related links. He has openly stated his intention to get sexual with children if it were legal. He is just tacking on the "if it were legal" to the end of the sentence to mess with people. He deserves to be beaten within inches of his life.


Anyway, here's my take: this guy is guilty of harassment and stalking on a massive scale. The restraining order could be justified on those grounds.

And even if the restraining order was arguably inappropriate, here is my proposed solution:

-Post his picture everywhere so that he is easily recognizable.

- Give the guy a dose of his own medicine. People should just follow him around en masse in public and stalk him the same way that he is hunting children. He will go into permanent hiding or else leave the area.

- Like I said, community members should just harass him (using his own tactics) and see how he likes it. If he can harass children who are gathered in large groups, maybe he can find out what it's like to be harassed, in turn, by an equally large group.


I think returning harassment with harassment in kind is a suitable non-governmental response.

MP | August 15, 2007, 4:56pm | #

He is just tacking on the "if it were legal" to the end of the sentence to mess with people.

But of course. I mean, it's obvious that he intends on committing said illegal action, isn't it?

I wish there was a mind-reading school near me.

Oh, and I also like the it's harassment even if you don't know you're being harassed angle. If I call smacky names while standing in a forest, does a tree fall?

(yeah yeah yeah...a forest isn't a website...still not buying that line of reasoning though)

bubba | August 15, 2007, 5:06pm | #

Ewww. Can I please have a different test case?

I'm gonna file this under, "That doesn't seem technically correct, but that dude ain't right."

Reminds me of 2 Live Crew. Maybe they were "right" but they were definitely douchebags.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 5:12pm | #

ChicagoTom,

Why? Also: what's wrong with you?


Why? Because the pedophile in the story is making everyone else look nuts by comparison.
Everyone is acting like this guy is a criminal and the worst person in the world. Yet he hasn't actually done anything wrong ( ok he violated a restraining order, that shouldn't have been issued to begin with, in the process of giving an interview -- to me that's just civil disobedience).

If this guy never said a word about what he was thinking, doing and pictures he was taking, none of this would have happened. He would still be out there hanging out at parks and looking at children at play and having the same exact fantasies/beliefs, and no one would be any the wiser. In fact he hasn't acted upon these feelings that have existed long before he said anything publicly.

Yet everyone is acting like they know what this guy plans to do and are ready to convict him for how people think he is gonna act.

Really, the people advocating for an innocent man to be locked up or monitored like a criminal because he comes off as creepy are the creepiest and scariest people of all.

ChicagoTom | August 15, 2007, 5:13pm | #

Reminds me of 2 Live Crew. Maybe they were "right" but they were definitely douchebags.

And douchebags shouldn't have rights? Or maybe douchebags should have a seperate system of justice?

Jim Bob | August 15, 2007, 5:19pm | #

bromo,

You are blithely ignoring everything that is being said to you and repeating yourself. Episiarch made an excellent point to you; namely, that you cannot simply entrust the government to protect children by giving the government carte blanche. Liberty is far too precious to begin curtailing it at the first sign of deviance.

No one here is arguing that this man should be allowed to harm children, okay? No one here has said that his behavior is