Ideology Favored Over Politics by Students at ISFLC 2013

This weekend Students for Liberty hosted their sixth annual International Students for Liberty Conference in Washington D.C. The conference brought together liberty-minded students from around the world for training sessions, seminars, lectures, and panel discussions on subjects such as Austrian economics, the war on drugs, free market environmentalism, criminal law, student activism, the welfare state, and more. This year’s conference featured keynote speeches from Magatte Wade and Whole Foods founder John Mackey as well as two tapings of the John Stossel's show.

Given the diversity of the students attending the conference it should come as no surprise that there were different opinions on how best to advance freedom on display.

While the contemporary political situation was discussed at the conference Alexander McCobin, executive director of Students for Liberty, made sure to emphasize that the focus of Students for Liberty is not political, saying:

Everyone here is absolutely an activist, but its not activism for politics, its activism for ideas. 

and,

We’re trying to spread the philosophy of liberty so that more people will embrace and understand what it means to then have bigger change down the road.

Many of the students at the conference were introduced to libertarian philosophy by the two most recent presidential campaigns of Ron Paul, the former Texan congressman who managed to excite and motivate a young and deployable demographic. Despite Ron Paul’s departure from Congress some of the students have kept some faith in the political process. The names MassiePaul, and Amash were sometimes mentioned in excited and hopeful tones.

Jack Hunter, one of the speakers at the conference and contributor to The American Conservative and official blogger for Ron Paul’s 2012 presidential campaign, emphasized that the growing libertarian influence in the Republican Party has allowed for serious conservative opposition to the CIA’s drone program to be taken seriously, "Things like this are no doubt due to partisanship, but also present opportunities for libertarians to move the ball in the liberty direction. Civil liberties. Economics. Federal Reserve. Foreign policy. A host of issues."

While most of the workshops were on libertarian philosophy, economics, and politics, there were also panel discussions and lectures that showed that young libertarians are not only interested in the academics of libertarianism but that they are also interested in reflecting on how their culture is perceived. There were two panel discussions on women in the liberty movement as well as a lecture on how to market libertarian ideas. There was also a film crew from the “Liberty is Personal” campaign, which aims to highlight stories of how young people became supporters of individual liberty and limited government. 

One of the particularly attractive aspects of ISFLC13 was that there was debate, and not only within the libertarian camps. The conference featured a particularly interesting debate between George Mason University economist Bryan Caplan and Temple law professor Jan Ting on immigration and military interventions abroad.

Although the effectiveness of student groups implementing political and cultural changes can be debated it is reassuring that much of the emphasis remains on the ideas of libertarianism and not political activism. How well libertarian-leaning politicians market themselves to young libertarians in the future will be interesting to see. If this weekend is any reasonable sampling, these students’ votes and support should not be taken for granted, especially considering that “would not vote” won the ISFLC13 2016 presidential straw poll. 

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  • ||

    Given the diversity of the students attending the conference

    Total sausage fest.

  • Professional Target||

  • Hyperion||

    I don't see any photos from this years conference, but that pic... I dunno so much about diversity. It's about what I would expect, a bunch of white kids.

    But there are more women than I would have expected. I guess they need to start coming to H&R, I am sure we can cure them of this silly idea of wanting to join us.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Hyperion||

    When I look at that pictures, it's what I expected, except that I was surprised to see that many females.

    But look at those numbers again. Blacks are more than 10% of that student population. Do you see 10% blacks in that photo? I don't think there are any. I see a couple Asians, maybe a couple from Latin America, and maybe an Indian or two, that's it.

    Why can't we reach these people, or why are they not concerned about liberty? That's what I think is the question.

  • Rhywun||

    Because "liberty" is a code-word for "racist" - assuming things haven't changed much since I was in college.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What do you mean "these people"? :)

  • Hyperion||

    The non-cracker people, of course.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Well, the way to reach us is more Kathyrn DeLong pictures.

    Obviously.

  • Sevo||

    The gal in the front row of the 2010 pic, showing some leg wouldn't hurt, either.

  • Hyperion||

    The one with the chicken legs, that looks like she had a sudden urge to pee on the parking lot?

  • Sevo||

    Hyperion| 2.17.13 @ 8:32PM |#
    "The one with the chicken legs, that looks like she had a sudden urge to pee on the parking lot?"

    Tough crowd!
    Man, you must have dated some gals in a rarefied atmosphere!
    A bit young for me now, but I'd have had a hard time saying no.

  • ||

    Kelly Jemison, I think.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Oh, and less of Dorky Fedora Guy and Goofy Cowboy Hat Guy.

    How the fuck is a brotha supposed to get his swag on with that in the background?

  • Hyperion||

    The chick to the right of chicken legs gotta pee girl, looks like she has a decent bod. Not sure if she is black or Hispanic maybe?

    Also, what about the guy from the Great White North, with the red cap and scarf, ay?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Can't blame a dude for being Canadian.

  • ||

    Yum.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • General Butt Naked||

    From there I migrated to this. Ron Paul rap song, and it's actually pretty good.

  • 34lbs||

    I'm a filipino second generation immigrant IN AUSTRALIA... you guys are definitely doing something right if you can reach someone like me.....

  • ||

    Welcome aboard. I definitely think the ideas are spreading, simply that we hear about liberty-oriented political positions more than we used to is a pretty good indication, I think. I also think the rise of the web has really helped spread the word. The liberty movement is slowly becoming mainstreamed.

  • Hyperion||

    you guys are definitely doing something right if you can reach someone like me.....

    Obrigado, Gracias, and thank you.

    We are here to spread the gospel of liberty, bro. Welcome.

  • ||

    Maybe more women would comment on Hit & Run if the boys here managed a little emotional maturity, and stopped holding a grudge against all girls because the pretty ones wouldn't talk to them in highschool.

  • SugarFree||

    Whatevs. We know that all you want is free birth control and three abortions per week and to trap a man into marriage with your attack womb.

    ALL women want this. Obviously.

  • ||

    Honestly, all I want is to lose my virginity. Is that so wrong?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It wasn't just the pretty ones.

  • Marie487897||

    like Virginia answered I didnt even know that some people able to earn $6978 in 4 weeks on the computer. did you look at this web site... www.Snag4.com

  • iggy||

    Magatte Wade is a black, French-educated woman who spoke at a libertarian convention?! She's like a unicorn.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Unicorns are delicious.

  • Hyperion||

    Marinated in proglodyte tears and Louisiana red hot sauce, is the most yummiest unicorn.

  • entropy||

    They also prove the existence of trolls.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wRaFXBDn0g

  • ||

    You can buy caned unicorn meat at thinkgeek.com

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    There were two panel discussions on women in the liberty movement as well as a lecture on how to market libertarian ideas.

    They need to come up with a libertarian "Life of Julia" where she is actually a man.

  • ||

    Why a man?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Do you want to project a libertarian or not?

  • Gladstone||

    Why a duck?

  • Hyperion||

    The names Massie, Paul, and Amash were sometimes mentioned in excited and hopeful tones.

    This is the future of the GOP, or they don't have one.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    They don't.

  • Ted Levy||

    The ideological bias in the above comments is amusing. "Total sausage fest" says Cheradenine.

    So a 2010 picture is offered showing lots of women.

    Well, it's "a bunch of white kids", responds Hyperion, even though there's a black female in the front row, and even though a keynote speech is being given by a black African women entrepreneur.

    But that demonstrates nothing of importance, per Iggy, who describes Wade as a "unicorn" because she is speaking where Iggy can't believe she is speaking...

  • Hyperion||

    You haven't been around here too long have you? Or is it just that you are totally immune to sarcasm, have no sense of humor, or expect that we are a PC sort of crowd who are afraid to say anything because someone might be offended?

    I don't see any bias in any of the comments above. The fact that you see it, makes me think you are harboring some bias of your own.

  • iggy||

    Well for one thing, I have no idea what Ted even means by 'ideological bias.' Unless he's trying to call me a racist or a sexist, in which case that's clearly untrue since I'd love for there to be more black or female libertarians. My point was simply that the majority of libertarians do tend to be white guys, a fact which most people would agree on.

    I'd also like to know what your point is, Zatoichi, since you don't seem to have one.

  • Hyperion||

    iggy, please do not feed the troll.

    Thank you.

  • ||

    Yeah. I don't know anything about Ted, but Zat is only interested in insulting people.

  • Hyperion||

    Right. I don't know Ted either, he didn't respond to me after that rather strange post that seemed to me to indicate he doesn't know us very well here.

    But the other one, needs to be added to the permanent 'do not respond to stupid troll' list.

  • iggy||

    It's fairly well known that proportionately, the vast majority of libertarians are going to be white dudes. That's pretty well established. A black, female french woman talking at a libertarian convention is very noticeable because it's very rare.

    Would you like some help getting that pole out of your ass?

  • Almanian!||

    I think that "pole" is a unicorn horn...

  • R C Dean||

    A black, female french woman talking at a libertarian convention is very noticeable because it's very rare.

    Seem to me that black female french women are pretty rare just about everywhere, non?

  • Sevo||

    Ted Levy| 2.17.13 @ 6:30PM |#
    "The ideological bias in the above comments is amusing..."

    Uh, would this be a bias toward liberty?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I'd also like to know what your point is, Zatoichi, since you don't seem to have one.

    Pssst-

    "Zatoichi" is just the same old shit in a different bag.

  • ||

    Or the same old bag in different shit.

  • Almanian!||

    Speaking of freedom, we confirmed over the last couple of days that there's apparently NO .22LR, 9mm, .357Mag, .38Spl, .45....but TWO boxes of .40S&W!....for sale in the entire United States.

    So we bought an assload of shotgun shells since we had none, and another assload of .30 .30 and .30-06 for the hunting rifles, since we only had a box of each. Even those are getting scarce in some stores....and I found zip except the most expensive stuff avail online - and little of that.

    When the panic subsides, I'll definitely be deeper into reloading, and will never, ever again fall below several thousand rounds of 9 and .22.

    Thanks for again creating what you profess to abhor, President, Congresstards and other would-be freedom stealers! Fuck you.

  • Hyperion||

    Fuck, I am getting ready to join the preppers and dig an elaborate underground complex of mazes below my property in the rural Midwest(I have 6 acres there and a house), stocked with a full arsenal of survival related things. You know, things the DHS don't like, like food and ammo. Not even considering selling the place in this political and economic environment. I join you in sending them all a big FUCK YOU.

  • Almanian!||

    Fer reelz, Hyperion. I used to laugh at those people. Now...not so much.

    I haz a sad, but I'm reading more and more articles supporting bans on the way to confiscation of weapons, and that I cannot - and will not - abide.

    I don't WANT to think like that. But I feel I'm being FORCED to think like that by the very clear messages of the gun grabbers - the freedom grabbers in general.

    I hope I die before everything goes utterly to hell....in the meantime, I hope supply catche up with demand and the panic dies down so I CAN AT LEAST GO TARGET SHOOTING WITHOUT PANICKING THAT I'LL RUN MYSELF OUT OF AMMO IF I DO THAT.

    :) Other than that, it's all good :)

  • General Butt Naked||

    I used to laugh at those people. Now...not so much.

    When my dad started buying gold coins a long time ago I thought it was harmless but misguided. That is, until he gave me a couple for doing some work for him. He said, "I paid 30-40 bucks for these, they should be worth more now", and I figured that I would of done the work for free so was happy to get that. They were worth almost 200 clams apiece. Ammo too. He'd always buy ammo when he went to walmart or the local sport shop, even though he already had plenty stocked up (he barely has enough money to live) and I used to think it was a stupid expenditure. Needless to say, I no longer do.

    I told him a couple of weeks ago what he could get with his stock of .223 and he was pretty shocked, but said he'll hold on to it.

  • Hyperion||

    He really should hold on to them. Gold?, meh, not so much. That bubble is way past the bursting point.

    Gold isn't worth so much when people are hungry and bullets are flying.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Gold?, meh, not so much. That bubble is way past the bursting point.

    I agree and disagree at the same time. (I used my gold to buy a gun)

    As more dollars are printed gold will be worth more, it's whether it will be relatively worth more. And people have been saying that gold is overvalued since it was at $700 an ounce.

  • Hyperion||

    It is overvalued.

    I'm not saying that it is not worth a hedge against the dollar right now, or in the near future. It's depending on when you bought. If you bought at $400 an ounce, sure, you could be good for a long time.

    But I would really advise anyone to not buy now and I have been doing so for 2 years, or more.

    And then again, it's worthless when shit gets really bad. I hope we don't get there, but I'm becoming more skeptical that we will not, with each passing day.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I was on the same page up until a few weeks ago when I figured out how much gunfighting/hunting I'd have to be involved in to go through my current ammo supplies. I mean, to use even a thousand rounds of defense ammo in a year, you'd have to be firing 20 rounds a week. If you're doing that much gunfighting without modern medical care available, you're probably dead before the year is out.

    Also 10,000 rounds of 22lr could drive every edible rodent species to extinction within a 50 mile radius (assuming no other predators, human or otherwise).

    So, I decided to chill out on the ammo purchases.

  • Sevo||

    "So, I decided to chill out on the ammo purchases."

    Buy low, sell high.

  • The Sherriff of Fistingham™||

    "I'll definitely be deeper into reloading,"

    Components (brass/bullets/primers) are almost as hard to get as loaded ammunition..*sigh*

  • ||

    Nobody should ever give me a gun, I'm simply too much of a drunk.

  • Proprietist||

    Sounds like it's still a good time to jump on the ammunition stock investment bandwagon!

  • 34lbs||

    Is there an International Students for Liberty Chapter here in Australia?

  • General Butt Naked||

    There were two, but they were eaten by poison toads.

  • ||

    They have a page for liberty-related groups in Australia, though they don't formally sponsor chapters, as the page says.

    http://studentsforliberty.org/network/australia/

  • Hyperion||

    Welcome to H&R, friend from down under. I hope so, you guys need it as much as we do here.

  • AlmightyJB||

    There's at least one libertarian women down under so you have a better ratio than we do. So there's that.

  • ||

    I want there to be a Students for Liberty chapter within walking distance of my house. Because I don't know how to drive, and I'm lazy.

  • ||

    I have been checking in off and on today...and sipping lots of vodka so I am not sure how much I can contribute here. But since I have been drinking it seems like a good idea to try.

    A culture that does not treasure liberty will not produce many individuals who do. I dont know much about asians so I cant say about them. Latins....in their home countries the majority seem to still think more in terms of tribe than country or of themselves as individuals. This is true in much of europe also. Tribes are not much on individualism or liberty.

    The most puzzling to me are blacks in the U.S.. I never hear the talking about liberty beyond the ending of slavery and never in a way that makes me think they understand the concept of freedom. It is a rare individual who does, and they usually seem to be somewhat at odds with black american culture.

    Unless we can change their cultures the demographics of the libertarian crowd is going to be more or less fixed.

    As for prepping....I will never think those people are nuts again. I have been hoarding ammo for years so I am good there. Working on food now. And like Almanian I will not abide my guns or property being seized. I am hoping they wont have the opportunity to try, but then I thought BO had zero chance of re-election.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Innate human nature in general values expansive liberty less than free food and a warm bed. So long as govt stops short of total imprisonment, if it provides those things the people will be content.

    Keep in mind that the process of weakening the constitution to its current sorry state was mostly performed by white men. I do agree about people with no experience of liberty being less likely to demand it, but even the libertarian rose cultures are starting to go wild.

    Also, you may want to tone down the talk of how you'd respond to confiscation. Look at what happened to James Yeager last month.

  • ||

    I was addressing the topic of the demographics of the students, why there are not more minorities....but yes whites are mostly responsible for the sorry state of the constitution today.

    Toning down is probably good advice.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Toning down is probably good advice.

    'Cause that's been working out great so far.

    1 Keep your head down and your mouth shut

    2 Turn in your guns and pay more taxes

    3 ?

    4 Liberty!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Right, the reason liberty is in trouble is because we haven't threatened to kill people enough.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Right, the reason liberty is in trouble is because we haven't threatened to kill people enough.

    Actually, there is some truth to that, as much as it pains me to state it.

  • Hyperion||

    If referring to our government officials, they would all be dead already in the days of our founders.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Right, the reason liberty is in trouble is because we haven't threatened to kill people enough.

    Liberty is lost a succession of minute steps, and each delta is used to justify more government; at some point things will either come to a head or we'll truly be slaves to the state. Should we wait until being bold is justification enough for imprisonment or death or should we be bold now?

    Sometimes you must remind those who would enslave you that it will at least be a bloody hassle to do so.

    Would you allow yourself to be ruled by a dictator?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    But it's not nearly to that point. We still have free elections and the courts are still in operation. There's no need to start threatening people.

    Leave the decision about how you'd respond to tyranny for when we actually have tyranny; your focus now should be on how to prevent that from happening by the many peaceful means that are readily available.

  • John||

    Mostly the constitution has been destroyed by people making decisions over the welfare of others about issues they have no direct stake in. People rarely are willing to give up their own freedoms. But they gladly will take away someone else's freedoms.

  • Sevo||

    John| 2.17.13 @ 9:47PM |#
    ..."People rarely are willing to give up their own freedoms."...

    Disagreed.
    Free shit will trump freedom almost always.
    Go to a soup kitchen; folks will mouth all sorts of crap they don't believe to get free food.

  • John||

    No. People give up freedoms they don't think they will ever use. Nanny Bloomburg doesn't ever shop at 7-11 so he doesn't give a shit if big gulps are banned.

  • ||

    "Mostly the constitution has been destroyed by people making decisions over the welfare of others about issues they have no direct stake in."

    This.

    I wonder sometimes why the founding fathers did not include in the constitution a provision that congress cannot exempt itself or it's members from the laws they make for everyone else. The only thing I can come up with is that they never dreamed that congress would be so audacious, but given the government they had experience with that is hard to swallow.

  • The Sherriff of Fistingham™||

    "The only thing I can come up with is that they never dreamed that congress would be so audacious, but given the government they had experience with that is hard to swallow."

    Or...our founding fathers and their proceeding generation(s) might not belong quite as high up on the pedestal as some would place them (probably would have been abhorred by it), regardless of how noble they were, they were only human. Respect to them, none the less.

  • Sevo||

    Tulpa (LAOL-PA)| 2.17.13 @ 9:37PM |#
    "Innate human nature in general values expansive liberty less than free food...'

    Or the claim of "free food".
    Skepticism is not a widely held trait; most people want to believe in an after-life, miracles, etc.
    So long as that's true, the default position of the voting public is "GOODY FOR FREE SHIT!" (and screw you assholes who don't want drones killing sand-people).

  • Virginian||

    Preppers are nuts right up until the point where they aren't anymore. Especially since big inflation has to hit at some point, barring radical changes in the government's currently ruinous policies of debt, debt, and more debt. Gold and/or silver holds value. It's not that gold is getting more valuable, it's that the dollar is losing value. Investments in companies which are about to breakthrough and become incredibly valuable is always the best way to become wealthy. But if you save your money in gold, you'll never be ruined.

  • John||

    There is nothing crazy about preparing for possible inflation. But you can do that without walking away from life and living in a compound somewhere.

  • Hyperion||

    There is nothing crazy about preparing for possible inflation

    Only for inflation?

    The preppers stop being crazy the day that the shit hits the fan. Anyone who is not scared by 17 trillion dollars of unpayable debt and the constant encroachment on liberty by our government, are not exactly the smart ones.

  • John||

    I am concerned. I just don't see how living in a compound is going to help. Like said government won't just come out and take their shit if they want to. If anything the preppers are setting themselves up to be the first victims by standing out so much.

  • Hyperion||

    You don't need to live in a compound. But having a fully supplied bunker is not a stupid idea.

  • Virginian||

    Depends on who's right. If the "craziest" of crazy preppers are right, and we're heading for a major breakdown in the next 25 years or so, then they're not the crazy ones.

    If everything is fine and dandy, aka the Paul Krugman position, then wasting your wonderful glorious fiat dollars on something as archaic as precious metals in completely ludicrous.

    Now, obviously the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think someone homesteading in an off the grid cabin in Idaho with three years of stored food, a shitload of ammo, and a safe of silver and gold is a hell of a lot smarter then Paul Krugman. But that's not exactly difficult.

  • John||

    If you like homesteading I guess. But if things really do go bad, what makes you think that homestead is going to do you any good? If the government wants to, they will just show up and take your shit. Or the mob will. I don't care how much ammo you have, one or even four or five people is not going to hold out forever.

    If you really think things are going to shit, you are probably best off in a small town somewhere in the middle of nowhere on the plains. There, the community will come together and take care of each other and be pretty much self sufficient.

    That is where the doomsday preppers are fucked up. They think they can be on their own or in some family group. They are morons. In a situation like that you want to be in a community. Not a city. But a small community that is a bit isolated where people can work together and take care of each others.

    The preppers are fucking retards even if they are right.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    They think they can be on their own or in some family group. They are morons. In a situation like that you want to be in a community. Not a city. But a small community that is a bit isolated where people can work together and take care of each others.

    And with that, you've proven you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You might want to go to Google and type the phrase "prepping group" or "prepping network," if you can spell it correctly, and learn something about what preppers actually do before you continue to embarrass yourself.

  • John||

    Unless they plan to take over a small town, their "network" isn't worth shit. You would have to have hundreds of people living in a colony for it to work, not a bunch of retards talking shit to each other on the internet.

    If the shit ever does hit the fan, the preppers will be some of the first ones to end up in a camp or slaughtered.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You would have to have hundreds of people living in a colony for it to work,

    Really? There is no village that is smaller than hundreds of people?

    Are you high?

  • John||

    Not many. Even the smallest towns have at least two or three hundred people. And that is what I am talking about. You have to have that many to have any kind of decent specialization of labor. And oh by the way, if it identifies itself as a "prepper community" they have just put a target on their backs for the government to come and burn it down.

    It is funny as hell to watch these retards tell the world "look at me". If you actually believed what they say the believe, that would be the last thing you would ever do. You would want to prep in a way that no one knows you are prepping, not get a reality show about it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You would want to prep in a way that no one knows you are prepping, not get a reality show about it.

    Again, if you knew anything about preppers, you would know that's what we actually do!

    My wife, who grew up on a farm without electricity or running water, and I grow enough food to feed ourselves on less than an acre. We can what we don't eat or store it in the root cellar. We supplement our diet by going out into the woods and foraging for wild greens and mushrooms. I can build a shelter from wood or even from packed snow. I can start a fire without matches. I can navigate using the stars or the sun's shadow. Compared to some folks, I suck at knots, but I'm sure I know more than you. My wife knows how to take plant fibers and weave nets, baskets and blankets. Both of us can field dress and butcher game.

    Who's the retard again?

  • Virginian||

    No one thinks that. As usual, you're foaming at the mouth about something you have little to no actual knowledge about. If you actually read what survivalist thinkers have to say, they often talk about the importance of community, social cohesion, and trade. Why do you think these people buy up junk silver?

    They are constantly discussing how communities, not individuals, will remain cohesive in a SHTF scenario. That's why the serious ones move to communities where there are like minded people.

  • John||

    They are constantly discussing how communities, not individuals, will remain cohesive in a SHTF scenario.

    And just what scenario is that? Hyperinflation? Lots of places have had hyper inflation and civilization went on. It sucks, but countries like Argentina and even Zimbabwe are still there.

    Fascist genocidal government? Maybe. But if that ever happens the last place I want to be is anywhere near these preppers because those will be some of the first people the government kills.

  • Hyperion||

    Well, geez, John, why don't you just lie down on your front lawn now and put an add in the paper for anyone to come and take all of your stuff, whatever they please, lol

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I think someone homesteading in an off the grid cabin in Idaho with three years of stored food, a shitload of ammo, and a safe of silver and gold

    Sounds wonderful to me.

  • John||

    And if things are so bad, you need a shitload of ammunition, just what do you plan to do with that gold? Eat it? In order for the gold to have any value, there has to be some kind of society to trade it in. So it seems to me if you are convinced all of civilization is going to end, you really don't have a lot of need for gold. Again, the preppers are retards.

  • Virginian||

    Actually serious preppers buy bags of old silver coins. In some kind of big social breakdown, a gold coin will buy you a horse, or a good rifle, but silver coins can be used for more everyday trading needs. Not to mention that .22 LR and things like canning supplies or batteries will also make excellent barter items.

  • John||

    If things broke down, why would someone sell you a useful item for a coin? Even gold money is only valuable because there is a higher system of trade. If things break down, it would be strictly barter system.

    And things would never break that far down anyway. And even if it did, it wouldn't break down all over the world at one time. You want a good prepper plan? Move to somewhere where the government hasn't broken down like every other person in history has done when things went bad everywhere else.

  • Virginian||

    Once again, you are in some kind of wild foaming at the mouth strawman argument thing.

    These people do not think "societal breakdown" means permanent period of lawlessness and looting, with cannibal bands and warlords and the living envying the dead. They fully expect things to quiet down and for local order to be reestablished by grassroots militia and self organizing communities. Again, this is widely talked about in survivalist circles. The guns and the stored food will get you through the bad times, and then civilization begins to bounce back.

    Silver and gold have been valuable for the entirety of human history. What the hell makes you think that will change?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    They fully expect things to quiet down and for local order to be reestablished by grassroots militia and self organizing communities.

    Oh lord it's the an-cap fantasy again.

  • John||

    Oh lord it's the an-cap fantasy again.

    Yes. The funny thing is that every doomsday scenario these clowns come up with has happened before. Hyperinflation? Lots of countries have been there and done that. Mass plague? black death killed 1/4 of the population of Europe. And each and every time civilization went on.

    The situation they secretly I think long for, has never happened anywhere on earth. But they are still convinced it will happen here and happen soon. Whatever.

  • Virginian||

    Jesus you are burning Tony level strawmen here. Get this through your head. No serious survivalist* thinks civilization will permanently collapse. What they expect is a period between 1 to 10 years of major societal disruption and upheaval.

    Which has happened literally thousands of times throughout world history. It hasn't ever happened here on a national scale.

    *People who live on the Eastern side of the country, within easy driving distance of cities full of people, who have maybe a month of food and no provisions for power, medical care, or water are not serious survivalists. They're not sheep, but they're certainly not ready for any kind of TEOTWAWKI scenario.

  • John||

    What they expect is a period between 1 to 10 years of major societal disruption and upheaval.

    We have already had that. Go back and see what happened in the 1870s. The depression was worse than the 1930s. And nowhere, not in Zimbabwe, not in Argentina, not in Imperial Russia, not even in warlord China, has there ever been a complete societal collapse to such an extent that only those who are armed and have access to gold coins managed to survive. It is just a retarded revenge fantasy these people are having.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yep. Keep punching that strawman, John. Keep punching it until your knuckles are bloody and full of splinters.

  • John||

    HM,

    You guys say it is a straw man. But then you never can give the situation these guys are actually prepping for. Society, won't break down. Okay, then what will it do? If it doesn't break down, why do I need to live in the middle of nowhere with all of these guns?

    You guys accuse me of making a straw man. But then give answers like What they expect is a period between 1 to 10 years of major societal disruption and upheaval. like that means anything.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    But then you never can give the situation these guys are actually prepping for

    See my response at 10:55.

  • John||

    HM

    And none of the situations you give require the kind of over the top preparation that these people engage in. And none of them will result in even the temporary breakdown of society.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The situation they secretly I think long for

    And that's the fucked up part. I don't think Virginian and HM fall into this category since they seem like cool guys, but a lot of these hardcore preppers you see on youtube look like they WANT the SHTF to happen. My unlicensed diagnosis is that they're mostly people whose lives are a disappointment and they want there to be a reset button.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    but a lot of these hardcore preppers you see on youtube look like they WANT the SHTF to happen.

    Some of those preppers are Book of Revelation-believing Christians who earnestly believe Heaven on Earth will follow SHTF. Others, like Rangar Benson, are cynics who believe in might makes right.

    However many voices in prepping believe that the best prepping is making sure the shit never gets to hit the fan, and work within their communities to change the disastrous path we're on. On youtube, I refer you to folks like practicalprepper, PatriotNurse, southernprepper1, and maineprepper.

  • General Butt Naked||

    @HM

    You mentioned maineprepper, he's one of my favorite youtube channels and I'm not a prepper. Very even-tempered and informational.

    Did you see this video where he outlines why gun confiscation would be near impossible; awesome video.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yeah. That was a great video. I appreciate that Maineprepper shares my philosophy that the number one piece of prepping equipment is your body, so you must keep it fit and healthy.

    He also has a video, from a while back, about what to do if the government attempts confiscation. (Short answer: When 5 people whose job involves training everyday to invade someone's house, and shoot and kill people, you give them your guns. Then you go to your buried cache and retrieve your backup weapon.)

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    the number one piece of prepping equipment is your body, so you must keep it fit and healthy.

    Health is certainly a plus, but I'm not sure our current cultural image of "fitness" (ie, \lt 5% body fat) is aligned with survival. There's a reason your body wants to store and hoard fat and resists building muscle it doesn't need... your body is "designed" to function in a world without ubiquitous food.

    So yeah, you should be able to sprint half a mile or so, walk 20 miles a day if necessary, and ride long distances on a bicycle if you have one available... but washboard abs and bulging biceps are going to melt away right quick once food supply goes south.

  • Virginian||

    Hardcore preppers aren't on YouTube dude. They're too busy actually working on their place up in the hills of Idaho.

    Oh and that TV show is a joke. There's that one lady who has a decent supply of stuff but doesn't believe in guns, so she doesn't have them. I about died laughing.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Hardcore preppers aren't on YouTube dude. They're too busy actually working on their place up in the hills of Idaho.

    I'd say those folks are more survivalists than preppers. You probably already appreciate the difference in philosophy between the two.

  • Virginian||

    I'd say those folks are more survivalists than preppers. You probably already appreciate the difference in philosophy between the two.

    True. What would you say the dividing line is? For me I'd say making that move to Idaho/Wyoming/Montana to a homestead puts you on the survivalist side. But I don't know.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    And each and every time civilization went on.

    We don't give a fuck about civilization. We care about the short-term safety of our families in a disaster.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yes...because a grassroots militia has never organized to fill in a power vacuum.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Excellent examples of the form grassroots militias are likely to take, HM. The mafia is a grassroots militia too, and probably a better model for what a post-SHTF govt would look like.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The mafia is a grassroots militia too, and probably a better model for what a post-SHTF govt would look like.

    Indeed. All the more reason to prepare, no?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    When they start torturing you and your family until you reveal everything you've stored, and where your fellow prepper friends are, and then keep torturing you some more until they're convinced you've told them everything...you might have a different POV.

    Unless you think you're either Michael Weston or Dunphy, and are capable of stopping said govt from breeching your compound.

  • John||

    HM,

    Afghanistan wasn't much of a country to begin with and then it was bombed for ten years by the Soviets. It would take a hundred years of bombing the US to put it in the situation Afghanistan was in in the 00s. If you doomsday scenario is the US turning into Afghanistan, you are just practicing revenge and disaster porn.

  • John||

    And Virginian, I could accomplish the same thing these half wits are accomplishing by moving out to Western Kansas where my family lives, no preping or bunkers need be done.

    They are all just look at me nitwits.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    If there's a big social breakdown, transaction costs are going to be huge (as in, you have to be ready to die if the deal goes bad). No one's giving up food or ammo for shiny useless metal that they have to use in another transaction for it to have any value.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    No one's giving up food or ammo for shiny useless metal that they have to use in another transaction for it to have any value.

    True. But I expect in the beginning, there will be people stupid and greedy enough to part with useful stuff in exchange for a shiny.

  • John||

    HM

    What do you think is going to happen? So what if we have hyperinflation? That would suck, but it would not destroy civilization and law and order. It didn't in Germany in the 1920s. And it wouldn't here. And it can always be stopped. The government just reissues new money and replaces the old inflated currency.

    It would make us a lot poorer. But I fail to see how it would make the world end. I guess people being poorer might give rise to a real facist state. But of course, real fascist states are pretty rare and happened in places like Germany and Japan because those countries had really particular histories. But even if you think the next Hitler is coming to America, the last place you would want to be in such a situation is in a community with a big target on its back. What you would want to do then, is leave the country and leave as quickly as possible.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    real fascist states are pretty rare and happened in places like Germany and Japan because those countries had really particular histories.

    Fascism/communism is what a prosperous society becomes when it abandons democracy and freedom. It's rare in history because prosperity is rare.

  • John||

    Maybe so Tulpa. But if your fear is the US going genocidal fascist, the answer is to leave the country not go out to Idaho and wait for the SA to come and kill you.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Well, if that happens my plan A is to become America's Édouard Daladier and slowly undermine the system from within.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What do you think is going to happen?

    A Black Swan.

    That's the point. I don't know, so I prepare for various scenarios. One scenario is losing my job. Another might be a meteor exploding over my city. Another might be a flu pandemic. Different scenarios have different plans of action. And you're absolutely right, if Fascism comes to America, my plan is to leave. One of the good things about my career is that I have a global network of buddies that I can rely on.

  • John||

    HM,

    Unless it is a big meteor that causes a mass exstinction, they will rebuild your city. We have bombed entire countries level and the countries went on. We would survive even a city destroying one just fine.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Again, you're talking "we". I'm not prepping for "we," I'm prepping for "me" (and my family). Yes, they will rebuild my city, but I don't feel like being at the mercy of the incompetents at FEMA while they do it.

  • John||

    HM,

    You don't have to be a prepper to avoid being at the mercy of FEMA. And having actually been to Katrina ravaged New Orleans, it wasn't that bad. No one was starving. People actually were able to adapt and take care of themselves without FEMA. What a concept.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    People actually were able to adapt and take care of themselves without FEMA. What a concept.

    Umm...what do you think "prepping" is?

  • Proprietist||

    LOL. I agree with John that some preppers are crazy and it can become a psychologically unhealthy obsession, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with preparing yourself and your family for a "worst case scenario."

  • VG Zaytsev||

    What do you think is going to happen? So what if we have hyperinflation? That would suck, but it would not destroy civilization and law and order. It didn't in Germany in the 1920s. And it wouldn't here.

    I think the chance of the US having actual hyper inflation is zero. Worst case, we have a 3-4 years of triple to quadruple digit inflation. Which is really bad, but has happened to numerous countries in the 20th century, none of which turned into Hobbesian hell holes.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Gold maybe; junk silver is going to be a tougher sell since it just looks like ordinary US currency.

  • Virginian||

    Except for the dates on it prove it's actually worth something. I find pre 64 pennies all the time. Never gotten a pre 64 dime or quarter in my pocket change. There's a reason for that.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I wouldn't expect a random person you're trading with to know this bit of trivia. And wikipedia won't be available to show them the article.

  • Virginian||

    Bluntly put, if we're in a situation where we're trading with junk silver, the only people who will have anything worth buying will know this. Everyone else will either be dead, or working for three squares and warm bed in the hayloft.

  • John||

    Bluntly put, if we're in a situation where we're trading with junk silver, the only people who will have anything worth buying will know this. Everyone else will either be dead, or working for three squares and warm bed in the hayloft.

    This is why I find these people and these ideas so offensive and why I think Libertarians should shun these people. To believe the above paragraph, you believe that people are totally stupid and completely incapable of ever improvising, adapting, or overcoming a bad situation. And that is not only completely untrue but also antithetical to the entire Libertarian ideal. If you think people would react that badly to inflation or economic collapse, you need to become a liberal because you clearly think most people are incapable of taking care of themselves.

  • Virginian||

    Well that's one possible case. The most extreme, and therefore unlikely one, but very possible.

    But here, let me blow your mind: do you think people right now in Zimbabwe are trading with the official currency? How about Weimar Germany? Did they use marks, or did people change the paper into something real as quickly as possible?

    As usual, you speak of what you do not know, but do so with true conviction.

  • John||

    Virginian,

    Where did I ever say it was a bad idea to buy gold? I think that is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Or to buy other things that you think will hold their value during inflation.

    But it is one thing to plan for inflation. It is quite another to move out and for a survivalist community. And that is what we are talking about here. And that is completely retarded. That is my point. So stop shifting the argument and pretending that I am making an argument I am not.

  • Virginian||

    Dude, the only goalposts that are moving are on your side of the field.

    But answer the question: Do you seriously think people in Zimbabwe right now are trading with the government paper? Or are they using alternate stores of value?

    Argentina is about to start another inflationary binge. Do you think people there are holding onto paper, or are they trading it for silver, gold, or other hard assets?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Alternate stores of value/hard assets != silver and gold

  • John||

    Dude, the only goalposts that are moving are on your side of the field.

    No I am not. I have said all along one thing, preppers are look at me retards. You can buy gold and prepare for inflation without being a prepper. So spare me the "you moved the goal post" bullshit. It is a sad excuse for an argument and even more so when it is done without explaining just why that is so.

    But answer the question: Do you seriously think people in Zimbabwe right now are trading with the government paper? Or are they using alternate stores of value?

    So what if they are? Go buy gold. Let me say for the fourth time, there is nothing wrong with buying gold or other things that will keep their value even in the worst inflation. But doing that does not make you a survivalist. Stop conflating the two. Buying gold is probably smart. Moving to a survivalist community or preparing for the world to turn into something out of the Road is retarded.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Moving to a survivalist community or preparing for the world to turn into something out of the Road is retarded.

    Why? Because they're not living life in a manner you deem acceptable? Maybe some people just want to live in the middle of nowhere. Maybe some people enjoy living a simple life. Maybe some people find learning and practicing the skills needed to live off the grid to be intellectually stimulating. And, as I stated before, some people live that lifestyle due to deeply held religious beliefs. Why is that "retarded"?

    I have a trillion-fold more respect for the person who moves out to the middle of nowhere to homestead and live a self-reliant life than I do of someone who sits on their fat ass all day at home, watches the Maury Show, and demands Big Daddy Government to give them their Obamaphone or Medicare.

  • John||

    HM,

    They are free to do what they like. I would never in a million years pretend to tell them how they should live or try to stop them. But I am free to think they are nuts. Freedom goes both ways.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Maybe some people just want to live in the middle of nowhere. Maybe some people enjoy living a simple life. Maybe some people find learning and practicing the skills needed to live off the grid to be intellectually stimulating. And, as I stated before, some people live that lifestyle due to deeply held religious beliefs. Why is that "retarded"?

    Except that doesn't apply to extreme preppers, since they're expressly claiming to be doing this for the purpose of surviving TEOTWAWKI.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I don't think that those motives are inherently mutually exclusive.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    No man can serve two masters, HM.

  • Virginian||

    Last post for the night from me:

    John, you've several times here demonstrated you don't know what actual survivalists believe. When called out on it, you've shifted your line of argument without any acknowledgement that you had been mistaken or misinformed. That's what I'm talking about with moving the goalposts.

    It's fine to think that the likelihood of said scenario is low, but you're distorting their position by claiming they believe in sitting behind their walls with their immediate families while the world burns. They are constantly talking about how important it is to work together. That's why the serious ones move to Idaho, Montana, Wyoming: to be near people who are prepared for that kind of thing.

  • John||

    John, you've several times here demonstrated you don't know what actual survivalists believe. When called out on it, you've shifted your line of argument without any acknowledgement that you had been mistaken or misinformed.

    Last post of the night. But that is completely untrue. You guys shifted your position when I pointed out how ridiculous the doomsday scenario really is. Then you never really could come up with any other scenarios that proved anything other than it might be good to have a supply of gold or a few days or weeks of food and water on hand, which is all true but hardly counts as being a prepper. You shifted your argument not me.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    but hardly counts as being a prepper.

    How could any scenario presented compare with your strawman prepper?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    So, Virginian, you think everyone in Zimbabwe with anything worth trading knows about 90% silver US coins from pre-1964.

  • Virginian||

    Well considering that Zimbabwe abandoned its currency in 09, they sure as hell aren't using Z$.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    IIRC Zimbabwe reached a new low when the company that supplied them with ink for their printing presses started demanding prepayment in a different currency. I guess there really is a limit to how much you can print your way out of trouble!

  • Hyperion||

    IMHO, spending money on precious metals, to prepare for a crisis(outside of a monetary crisis only) is a really, really stupid idea.

    What you need is shelter, food, and weapons. There is not anything else that is going to help you, at all, if things get really bad.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    don't forget fleshlights and magazines

  • Hyperion||

    I will have womens, if not interwebs, comrade. Sorry for your bad luck.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    To each his own. Never been a fan of Brazilian porn.

  • Hyperion||

    Geez, Tulpa, you think because I have a Brazilian wife, that you need to insult her and I? That is really low, I hope that you realize that.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I didn't intend it that way.

  • Hyperion||

    That sure the fuck is what it sounded like. Just because we disagree on some things... I mean John and I disagree on things, but he doesn't descend into personal insults, don't mean that you have to get hateful. But whatever.

  • John||

    I descend to personal insults all of the time. Everyone on here does. It is a tough board.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It is a tough board.

    Is insulting a marketable skill after SHTF?

    I was just reading about people in the Dark Ages who farted professionally, for entertainment at royal gatherings. That I could handle.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Hyperion||

    descend to personal insults all of the time. Everyone on here does. It is a tough board.

    John, we all know it is a tough board, and we all are tough, but none of us are going to put up with personal insults. Don't go there. This is between Tulpa and me, I think we are good now, so don't fuck with this.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I don't know you or your wife from any random people on the street, so it's impossible for me to insult either of you on that basis. I was just trying to make a joke, sorry.

  • Hyperion||

    It's not funny anymore, Tulpa. Really, you know that. After the everyone in South American pees in their own water shit.

    We can just forget this now, I think you have valuable input here at H&R, not that I am anyone to decide that, but I offer a truce now, just stop that bullshit and we are good.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    OK, hyp. I really didn't intend it to be an insult, just playing around. Sometimes I misjudge the things I say, which is probably why people tend to hate me IRL as well.

  • Hyperion||

    OK, hyp. I really didn't intend it to be an insult, just playing around. Sometimes I misjudge the things I say

    We disagree because we are individuals.

    We have a common enemy to face, the statists that now occupy DC, and we need to stick together.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    What you need is shelter, food, and weapons. There is not anything else that is going to help you, at all, if things get really bad.

    I guess that depends on what you mean by "really bad".

    People in the aftermath or hurricanes, in the US, and earthwquakes elsewhere, wished that they had cash, water, fuel, generators; and depending on their own personal situation medical supplies and food.

    It makes sense to have a 2-4 week supply of those in case of a large natural disaster.

  • Hyperion||

    I guess that depends on what you mean by "really bad".

    I mean in a 'regime changing crisis', for whatever reason.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yes, everyone should have those. I don't even know if that qualifies as prepping, though everybody has different definitions.

  • Virginian||

    Dude, I know people, and not just college students, who literally could not feed themselves for two days on things they have in their house. Let alone have provisions for power generation, medical needs, self-defense, etc.

    Someone who keeps a rotating stock of four weeks of household needs is probably better off then most everyone in my neighborhood.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Well, that was the case when Sandy hit NYC. I don't know how they got this data but the belief was that the average NYC resident had less than 3 days of food and water in their dwelling.

    I know that apts are small in Manhattan, but seriously? 3 days of food is like a cubic foot for 2 people. Like I said water can be tougher.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Many people in cities don't cook. I saw this in Bangkok; the vast majority of people ate all three meals from food carts or restaurants.

    Water storage can be tough. For drinking and cleaning you need about 2 gallons per person per day. You can buy giant bags, which are basically water mattresses and store them under your bed or in your bathtub. And that's good for 55 to 70 gallons of water, which for 1 person is plenty.

    My philosophy is that water storage is important, but water purification is even more important. With a good water filter like a Berkey or a Lifestraw you can basically drink anything that's not raw sewage.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You don't really need fresh water for cleaning. I'd imagine my daily shower and frequent handwashing would be the first things to go if I had no access to clean water.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I'd imagine my daily shower and frequent handwashing would be the first things to go if I had no access to clean water.

    You don't need to shower daily, but you better wash your hands. The last thing you need in such a situation is an infection like cholera.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I would just wear latex gloves except when eating.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I would just wear latex gloves except when eating.

    Fair enough. Though I would suspect you'd need a large supply of them. A good pair of leather gloves would be more useful, I think.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yeah, I was just making that up. But it's a good idea. All I've got are dishwashing gloves which definitely wouldn't work, especially for the DREs.

  • John||

    Water is a big thing. And it is not hard. Hell, have a really good wine cellar or a good supply of beer. That is how people survived for centuries before clean water supplies.

    A generator and gas are good too. And food is easy. Just make sure you have some kind of gas supply and a stove. A good supply of rice and beans and canned goods will last you for months.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Water can be tough if you're in an apartment.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    . And food is easy. ... A good supply of rice and beans and canned goods will last you for months.

    *face palm*

    Remember, this was the guy lecturing to us on prepping.

    Enjoy your folate deficiency and rickets, John!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Rickets is just a myth propagated by the white man to stigmatize melanin.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I'm in my mid thirties and neither a farmer nor a rancher by trade or experience, so it would be absolutely insane for me to go to live in a compound in the middle of nowhere unless it were CERTAIN that that would be necessary for survival. My skills are not suited to that life, and neither are most people's these days. If someone's got talent in farming or ranching, by all means go ahead and megaprep.

    But if you save your money in gold, you'll never be ruined.

    Unless the economy goes into depression and no one has anything valuable to trade for your shiny metal, or the rule of law completely breaks down to where any trade is taking your life in your hands, or (what I think most likely) the govt creeps ever closer to fascism and untraceable transactions become illegal and gold is only allowed to be sold or traded via the govt.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    My skills are not suited to that life, and neither are most people's these days...

    Small steps. You might want to check out the Anyone Can Farm project.

  • Hyperion||

    I've lived in every possible condition of American society, from the most rural, to the most urban. I learned how to grow food when I was very young, I am talking 4 years old. I really do consider myself a master gardener. And I know very well how to hunt and fish. I have a long ways to go as being a survivalist, but I think it's a good time to learn.

    People who are pure urbanites, and especially those accustomed to government dependency, will not last very long in a real crisis.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Well good for you.

  • Hyperion||

    Fuck off, war mongering racist bitch.

  • Hyperion||

    Sorry, Tulpa, now that you apologized to me, forget what I said, I was pizzed.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    yes

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The most puzzling to me are blacks in the U.S.. I never hear the talking about liberty

    No offense, but are you listening?

    Besides that, I for one, don't march down the street like I'm in a Gay Pride parade throwing my political views in people's faces. Do you inquire about the politics of the people you meet in your daily life? You might be surprised.

    and they usually seem to be somewhat at odds with black american culture.

    There is some truth to that in that from the 50s to about the mid 70s there was a culture war within the Black community. It was folks like Zora Neale Hurston vs. Richard Wright and other Leftist radicals.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Meh, a lot earlier than that -- Booker T. Washington (now derided as the Great Accommodator in the black community) vs WEB DuBois.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yes, but Booker won the first fight. All DuBois could come up with was "We'll go Back to Africa....someday."

  • ||

    None taken. If I am wrong or ignorant on the matter it would make me very happy.

    The people I come into contact with from the black community locally are huge supporters of BO and his policies. If I try to talk about the evils of collectivism to them they simply double down on their support.
    Never have I heard a single one talk about personal liberty. Ever. Not once.

    Whatever I see in the news or on television is the same. There are a few, but very few. It causes me to despair.

    If there are large numbers of libertarian minded blacks out there please please show them to me.

  • Virginian||

    There aren't large groups of libertarian minded people, period. It's just about 5% of whites are libertarian minded, versus say 2% of blacks.

  • ||

    I havent seen those numbers, but that sounds about right. Again, despair.

    I dont want anyone to think that I am claiming race had anything to do with the desire for liberty. What I am claiming is that the value a culture places on liberty has much to do with how many individuals that culture produces who value liberty. Skin color is irrelevant.

    Then we have to factor in individual qualities as well. I remember reading in Skeptic magazine some years ago that a study found about 7% of people to be natural skeptics. I am guessing that increases the chances of those individuals joining the liberty camp.

    No matter the case, whether I am right or wrong about this, one thing is certain;
    the numbers are pathetically low in every demographic.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    . What I am claiming is that the value a culture places on liberty has much to do with how many individuals that culture produces who value liberty.

    Absolutely.

  • Hyperion||

    There aren't large groups of libertarian minded people, period. It's just about 5% of whites are libertarian minded, versus say 2% of blacks.

    Where did you get those numbers? I would say that it's more like 15% of whites vs. .01% of blacks.

  • Virginian||

    Pulled 'em out of my ass. For whites I have this board, minus HM, and for blacks I have Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Big Boi, and Karl Malone. And Barack Obama of course, because shriek tells us he is the best liberterian ever!

  • Hyperion||

    So, Big Boi really did vote for Gary Johnson?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    So, Big Boi really did vote for Gary Johnson?

    Have you read his Twitter feed? It's like he just copies the comments to the AM and PM links and then adds stuff about hip-hop.

  • Hyperion||

    Nope, I don't do twitter, or FB, so are you saying that he did vote for GJ, or no?

  • Calidissident||

    If people are gonna give specific percentages for certain groups, I think you need to actually back those numbers up in some way rather than guesstimate from personal experience

  • General Butt Naked||

    I watch a lot of gun/survivalist stuff on youtube and there is a good amount of black people representing the liberty cause. You're not gonna be shown that in the usual outlets, but the same is mostly true of white people.

  • Hyperion||

    I blame the democrats for this shit. Period, that is all.

    The Democrats specialty is dividing people up into classes, races, sexes, and any other divisions that they can think up.

    On the other hand, Libertarians think of people as people.

    We need to out think them, educate, and gain the upper hand. Being right has its merits.

  • ||

    I happen to know lots of gay libertarians. Gay libertarians are my favorite libertarians. If there are any gays on Hit & Run who live in south Florida, we could rent a fishing charter together. I'll bring weed, and beer.

  • John||

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/.....57233.html

    The media is just butt hurt that Obama won't give them access to his golfing weekend alone with Tiger Woods. What exactly do they think they are going to do about it? Do their jobs and actually report the news rather than act as his official mouth piece? Fat chance.

    It is human nature to not respect sycophants. Given that, Obama has to hold these people in utter contempt. How could you, if you were Obama, have any respect for them? Oh sure he likes what they do for him. But there is no way he has any respect for them. I imagine the treatment will get worse and worse as time goes on. Obama knows there is nothing they can ever do about it.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Maybe BO and Tiger will have some time to go skeet shooting.

  • Hyperion||

    I think it's more likely that they go down on each other. Sorry, Tiger, you were just the victim here.

  • John||

    Tiger is a freaky dude. He was married to a blond model and still went for some fat chick who worked a Waffle House. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he plays on both teams.

  • ||

    You know what other well-loved man married to a blonde cheated with a chubby girl?

  • Hyperion||

    Me?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    John Edwards.

    What do I win?

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Tulpa,
    John Edwards?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    OK, Rielle Hunter wasn't that chubby. But she was crazy.

  • The Sherriff of Fistingham™||

    Billy Clinton?

  • ||

    Way to not get the joke.

  • ||

    You know what other well-loved man married to a blonde cheated with a chubby girl?

    Jude Law?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    BO better keep him away from Michelle if those are his tastes.

  • ||

    "I think it's more likely that they go down on each other."
    Yeeeeaah. This is the first thing that popped in my head and why I used the word 'creepy'.

    "I wouldn't be surprised at all if he plays on both teams."
    I would be surprised if he didnt...and that holds true for captain zero as well.

    We are down the rabbit hole.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    We are down the rabbit hole.

    That's an entirely different team.

  • RyanXXX||

    I hear Tiger is fond of skeeting all over the place

  • ||

    BO and Woods for a weekend of golf? I hadnt heard.
    Can this motherfucker get any creepier?

  • John||

    Spending a weekend alone, with no press coverage allowed, without his wife and kids with one of the most notorious sex addicts and philanderers in the country. Yeah, a Republican could totally get away with that.

  • RyanXXX||

    To be fair, Bush was as bad or worse with the vacation stuff. The only reason he didn't hang with celebrities like Woods is because they wouldn't be caught dead with him, as opposed to the cool and hip Black Jesus

  • John||

    Bush wasn't even close. He rarely took vacations beyond going to his ranch in the middle of nowhere in Texas, which was essentially like staying in the White House. He also stopped playing golf after the Iraq war started. Obama took more vacations in four years than Bush did in 8. And the ones he took were much more expensive to the tax payer.

    I really don't know where people get that Bush was just as bad as Obama on vacations. Several people have repeated that line. It is just not true.

  • ||

    There is plenty to hate Bush for without making things up. I think those kinds of things are fabricated not so much to make Bush look bad as to make BJ ( black jesus) look not so bad.

    It is pathetic.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I do remember Olbermann raking GWB over the coals for saying he gave up golf in recognition of the sacrifice of the soldiers in Iraq. He didn't rip into BO for not giving up golf and keeping the soldiers in Iraq, so I guess Olbermann's beef is that the president must play golf.

  • Calidissident||

    "Bush wasn't even close. He rarely took vacations beyond going to his ranch in the middle of nowhere in Texas, which was essentially like staying in the White House."

    Well that's exactly the crux of the debate. Including days spent at Crawford and Camp David, Bush was on vacation more than Obama. So it depends on whether or not you consider those true vacation days. I don't know how the expense of Bush's Crawford trips compares to the cost of Obama's trips

  • John||

    Camp David is just another White House. And Crawford is a ranch in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing in Crawford. And both places were quickly made secure by the USSS. Where Presidential travel gets expensive is where the President goes to a new place. Then the USSS has to make a whole new security plan, do site visits before the President gets there, rent out tons of space around where he is going to be and so forth. Camp David is about as cheap of a trip as the President can take. Crawfors wasn't far behind. Going to a golf resort in Florida is definitely more expensive.

  • Calidissident||

    As I said John, I don't know how Bush's vacation days compare to Obama's if you eliminate Camp David and/or Crawford. Nor do I know the relative costs. But I'm not making the claim that one vacationed more or cost taxpayers more money

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Personally I wish BO would go on vacation 365 days a year. Preferably someplace new, like Mars.

  • Almanian!||

    Second

  • Homple||

    The Yabbut Bush seems to be as hardy a perennial among libertarian commenters as it is for the lefties.

  • Hyperion||

    Can this motherfucker get any creepier?

    Yes. He has 4 more years, you ain't seen nothing yet.

  • ||

    *hangs head*

    I know.

    It will be interesting to see after he is gone what kind of shit comes out that we didnt hear about. Shit he did and got away with because no one knew or because the MSM covered for him.

  • Hyperion||

    You mean like Fast and Furious? Or saying retarded shit like 'you didn't build that?', that no one else in history could have got away with?

    Well, like I said, you ain't seen nothing yet.

  • ||

    Ideology Favored Over Politics by Students at ISFLC 2013

    I was there for most of it and they did boo John Bolton off the stage during the Stossel taping when he brought up Lincoln as an example of an executive power to kill Americans waging war against the United States government. It was even more cringe-inducing than the entire Ann Coulter segment and Q&A.

    That being said it was a great conference, I particularly enjoyed Balko's lecture on police militarization and the panel discussion on drug policy with Gillespie and Riggs.

  • Hyperion||

    Thanks for the scoop. I'm very interested in this movement. After all, the youngsters are the future of the liberty movement. Which is why I am so happy that Ron Paul is dedicating his time to this now, instead of Congress, where his younger son has taken his place.

  • ||

    You have to be shitting us.
    John Bolton tried to defend executive power to kill americans at a libertarian gathering? I am not a fan of the man, but I didnt think he was a moron.

  • ||

    Instead of booing they should have made the argument that the executive is waging war on Americans and so they have the right to kill back. Then dragged him off the stage and strung him up.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    So much for free speech.

  • ||

    I didnt say I wouldnt let the man speak.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    No more moronic than decrying the Iraq War to an audience full of neocons like RP did all the time in 2008.

  • John||

    I disagree. Booing people off the stage is what leftists do. No one there had to agree with Bolton. He was invited to speak there. They owed him common courtesy. They were free to tell him he was wrong or not agree with him. But they were not free to disrupt his speech. I hate that shit.

  • Hyperion||

    I have to agree with you, John. If he was an invited speaker, then boos are good, but going lefty is not cool at all.

  • ||

    In spite of my drunken outburst earlier, I actually agree with you John.

  • ||

    Let me clarify. The exchange went like this: he brought up Lincoln and the Civil War as an example, the audience began to boo loudly, and a flustered Bolton sarcastically said something like "oh yeah, that's how you advance a movement, defend the Confederacy."

    Stossel then ended the interview and quickly segued to his sign-off.

    In any case, I'd be interested in seeing how that comes off after editing.

  • ||

    Booing people off the stage is what leftists do.

    So do rightists, John.

  • ||

    Who ARE you?

  • Almanian!||

    OT If it's been mentioned earlier, tl;dr...

    Danica Patrick pole position for the Daytoner Fie Double Aught, and Courtney Force wins the Funny Car Winternationals! Woooohooo!

    All the Danica hate can begin anew! Will enjoy wantching. As for Force, she talks like her dad - the opposite of Ashley, so she'll be WAY more fun to listen to!

    This is why there are no female libertarians - they're all racing cars and motorcycles and planes...

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    With all this talk of equality and breaking gender barriers, I've yet to see Jeff Gordon taking off his pants suggestively during a Super Bowl commercial.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    That's because David Beckham didn't want the competition.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Not all of us can have a Spice Girl waiting at home to service our every need.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    that reminds me.
    4 weeks until the Australian GP and the beginning of the 2013 F1 World Championship.

  • Almanian!||

    More importantly, World Superbike at Phillip Island Down Under next week, then the AMA Superbikes at Daytona in March, and the MotoGP stupidity at Qatar in April, signaling the rise of the Earth from its slumber and the need to begin living like homo sapiens again (no homo....unless you continue on to "sapien")

  • Almanian!||

    Another OT: Why is job growth so sluggish? Couldn't be because local, state, and - especially - the national gummints are scaring the HELL out of the companies and people who create jobs, could it?

    No, must be because increased personal savings is now a "further drag on the economy", in addition to other factors.

    Usually I find Robert Samuelson fairly thought provoking. This just seems willfully tarded. Enjoy.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.c.....17050.html

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    When the recovery comes, the best we can hope for is for most people to have four part-time jobs so none of their employers have to provide health insurance.

  • Almanian!||

    As an employer, "eah buddy"

  • Almanian!||

    +y

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You heartless exploiter of the working class!

  • Hyperion||

    WTF was this thread about? Oh, yeah, students for liberty.

    Ok, now let's get some perspective. I am attending a university that costs 40k a year, paid by my parents, yet I have no hope of ever attaining a job that will pay that much in a year, with my stupid meaningless degree that has nothing to do with real world skills...

    Hmmm...

    Yet, I am fully responsible for paying the healthcare costs of my elders, and that will be forcefully taken from any meager earnings that I might have some dim hope of earning.

    God, this is great.... Oh wait... If I refuse to work and support the non-productive among us, I can live a great life fully paid for by the government? I GETTIT NOW!!!!!

  • ||

    $40k? Where are you going? My tuition at Purdue is around $23.5k. Since I live off-campus, I have money left over for discretionary spending.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    There are a lot of private universities that are 40K or above. CMU down the road from us is over 50K after you add on all the fees.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Top Gear just did Car Rugby.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    and the groundscrew at Twickenham won't be too pleased.

  • ||

    I wish I could've gone, but I'm not a student.

  • ||

    My plan if it all falls down is to eat a bullet. I'm simply too soft to survive.

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