The Phantom of Christopher Dorner Haunts Southern California

Hope he painted that on his car, too.Shared via FacebookIs he alive? Is he dead? Is he that large black man in the parking lot of a home improvement store? (No) Is this a bad time to be a large, dark-skinned man in Southern California? (Possibly)

The mystery of Christopher Dorner continues to spool out in Southern California as the man sought for the murders of three people as part of an apparent crusade against the Los Angeles Police Department members he holds responsible for his termination continues to elude capture. Assuming he’s still alive to be captured. Assuming he’s still in Southern California.

As we noted last week when the manhunt first began, Dorner left behind an apparent lengthy manifesto blaming his termination as a police officer on a racist, corrupt LAPD that retaliated against him for reporting a colleague for allegedly kicking a suspect in the chest and head. As the Los Angeles Times diplomatically observed, the accusations have had some “resonance” among members of the public as well as some employees within the LAPD. Twitter hashtags like #GoDornerGo and #WeStandWithDorner have popped up, and a Facebook page titled “We Are All Chris Dorner” has about 2,300 likes. That’s actually not a lot.

In an extremely rare move (California police disciplinary records are about as hard to get access to as the White House’s drone regulations), LAPD Charlie Beck has reopened the case that ultimately got Dorner sacked and let the media take a look. The Times reviewed the records:

For a Los Angeles Police Department disciplinary panel, the evidence was persuasive: Rookie officer Christopher Jordan Dorner lied when he accused his training officer of kicking a mentally ill man during an arrest.

But when a Los Angeles County Superior Court judge examined the case a year later in 2010 as part of an appeal filed by Dorner, he seemed less convinced.

Judge David P. Yaffe said he was "uncertain whether the training officer kicked the suspect or not" but nevertheless upheld the department's decision to fire Dorner, according to court records reviewed by The Times. …

LAPD records show that Dorner's disciplinary panel heard from several witnesses who testified that they did not see the training officer kick the man. The panel found that the man did not have injuries consistent with having been kicked, nor was there evidence of having been kicked on his clothes. A key witness in Dorner's defense was the man's father, who testified that his son told him he had been kicked by police. The panel concluded that the father's testimony "lacked credibility," finding that his son was too mentally ill to give a reliable account.

It’s interesting that while the judge had doubts about whether Dorner lied he still upheld the decision to fire him. I would be curious to see if judges made similar deferences to the LAPD when officers are appealing terminations for actually hurting citizens as opposed to filing complaints about fellow officers. But again, California law gives police officers secrecy and special protections. We don’t have decent context to evaluate the judge’s decision. Whatever disciplinary process may follow for the officers who recklessly shot two newspaper delivery women will likely not get the kind of public airing Beck has given Dorner’s case.

Ultimately, the knowledge that California law actually conceals these cases from the public is undoubtedly feeding any pro-Dorner support, or at least a certain level of empathy. In November, Los Angeles deputies (not police) shot an unarmed man five times in the back, killing him. Deputies say he was reaching for a weapon. Witnesses say otherwise. Riots in Anaheim (again not the LAPD) last year followed a similar police shooting. Prosecutors are declining to charge the officer who fired the shots. So Dorner’s “crusade” strikes a chord with those who see a Southern California police force largely unrestrained and unresponsive.

But Dorner makes a terrible choice for a folk hero. His first alleged victims were the daughter of the man who defended him in the disciplinary process and her fiancé. Dorner’s manifesto blames Randal Quan for not defending him and accuses him of conspiring with the rest of the police to get rid of him. But in the report of the disciplinary panel, Quan said that the department was making a scapegoat of Dorner in his attempt to keep the man from getting fired.

It’s possible that the department retaliated against Dorner for blowing the whistle on an abusive training officer. It’s also possible that Dorner himself was retaliating because of the performance evaluations he had been given by that very same officer:

On several evaluation forms, [Teresa] Evans rated Dorner as "satisfactory" but indicated he needed to improve in certain areas. At one point, she told him she would give him an "unsatisfactory" rating unless he improved. "He was upset," she said.

Records show that Dorner reported the kicks a day after he received an evaluation in which Evans noted that he needed to show improvement in three categories, including the time it took to write reports, officer safety and use of common sense and good judgment.

Rallying behind Dorner is going to just harden the “us vs. them” mentality of law enforcement agencies in Southern California. I don’t know whether Dorner deserved to be terminated, but I do know that an officer on a murderous rampage over losing his job is perhaps not the most logical rallying point to fight against police abuse.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • JeremyR||

    "I don’t know whether Dorner deserved to be terminated, but I do know that an officer on a murderous rampage over losing his job is perhaps not the most logical rallying point to fight against police abuse."

    Probably not, but at the same time, there doesn't seem to be anyone else actually doing anything about the many abuses of the police. People take what they can get.

  • yonemoto||

    Is he really going on a murderous rampage over losing his job? Or is he going on a murderous rampage over the cravenness of the culture that resulted in him losing his job?

    This guy was terminated and then went on active duty USN for two years (seemingly without disciplinary incident - mustered out because of security clearance problems, of course stemming from the LAPD issues).

  • yonemoto||

    (that being said, it's likely he murdered two innocent people).

  • 4tehsnowflakes||

    So not maybe or probably. Dorner is definitely not the right rallying point. 4ts read the manifesto and it does not appear Dorner has any more secrets to tell. The fact that LAPD's closed review boards tend to protect the accused officer is not news, even if it should be.

    The part where Dorner talks about using certain databases to track his targets is interesting though. "I will utilize ISR at your home, workplace, and all locations in between. I will utilize OSINT to discover your residences, spouses workplaces, and children’s schools. IMINT to coordinate and plan attacks on your fixed locations. Its amazing whats on NIPR."

  • LTC(ret) John||

    Those are not "data bases" - he is using military terms;

    ISR = Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance

    OSINT = Open Source Intelligence

    IMINT = Imagery Intelligence

    NIPR = Non-Secure Internet Protocol Router Network

  • wingnutx||

    He sure loves acronyms and buzzwords.

    NIPR is just unclassified email, but it doesn't sound high-speed when you say "I'm going to look you up in Outlook."

    IMINT means he's going to use Google Earth.

  • playa manhattan||

    He definitely killed the engaged couple. He called the father and taunted him afterward. As for the Riverside Police officer, it was probably him, but there isn't much evidence of him committing the crime yet...

  • yonemoto||

    due process, innocent till proven guilty, etc.

  • Vapourwear||

    "He definitely killed the engaged couple."

    Says who? The police? The media?

    IF this guy did what he said they did, he's just as much a monster, but hell, how can you tell these days?

  • Restoras||

    So watchayagonna do, drone strike him?

  • ||

    Yeah. If he lost his security clearance because the LAPD fired him, because he made a truthful allegation of brutality, he'd have a right to be pissed.

  • sarcasmic||

    He lost his entire life because he really believed in all that stuff about honor and honesty.

    Dumb fuck.

    He should have just enjoyed the ride like everyone else.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Anyone in the belly of the beast that cares about justice should carefully collect evidence, strategically release some, but not all of it, to defense attorneys and the media; and 'frame' the worst malefactors when possible.

    It's a really dirty business, but the only way that you can stay sane and see justice done.

  • ||

    I really don't think what he's doing is "doing anything" about police abuse.

  • Generic Stranger||

    It's been said before, but this is like a fight between Nazis and Communists: you don't root for either side, you pray for an asteroid strike.

  • db||

    I think global warming might help here?

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    I want to see how it plays out.

  • ||

    Yes, very much like this year's Superbowl.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Or the recent election.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Or the whole goddamn world. I'm serious, I don't know if I'm on a tangent universe, of if two universes collided, or what.

  • A Serious Man||

    "I don’t know whether Dorner deserved to be terminated, but I do know that an officer on a murderous rampage over losing his job is perhaps not the most logical rallying point to fight against police abuse."

    He murdered three innocent people, two of whom were young with their whole lives ahead of them and the other a father and husband, so yeah, he gets absolutely no sympathy from me at all and I hope they capture him and he rots in prison for the rest of his miserable life.

    That being said, I don't think it is inappropriate to find some satisfaction in how the accidental shootings, the blatant Fourth Amendment violations, and overall incompetence are reflecting poorly on the LAPD and Federal law enforcement.

  • ||

    It's a win-win.

    When he gets caught, a bad cop is going to get his just deserts.

    Until that point, an entire police force is exposed for the incompetent shitbags they are.

    I side with neither. Just enjoying the show.

  • Sevo||

    Yeah, but what about the random targets the cops are shooting at?

  • ||

    Yeah, that part sucks. But if you survive, you'll be set for life.

    And the more "civilians" they shoot the worse they look.

    Anyone seen the comments over at CNN? There is some serious cop hate goin' on over there. We are pikers by comparison.

  • entropy||

    "Anyone seen the comments over at CNN?"

    ROFLOFL. Thank you.

    "The cops will not bring him alive. A lawyer like Gloria Allred might get him to a police station alive to surrender. "

    Oh yes, god, call Gloria fricken Allred. And have her book him on Oprah. And then professional pretend-cop Steven Seagal can arrest him.

  • DRM||

    He's accused of murdering three innocent people. I'd personally like more than the LAPD's word before convicting him.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    This,

    Is there any evidence that he's killed anyone?

  • Mike M.||

    The fact that he's on the lam strikes me as pretty good evidence that he's done something very wrong and knows it.

    Innocent people generally don't flee into the mountains, the movies notwithstanding.

  • BarryD||

    Innocent people do that all the time. It's called "backpacking".

  • DRM||

    Given how trigger-happy the police have been, Dorner being on the lam isn't evidence of anything except basic sanity.

    All other evidence that's been given to the public is "according to LAPD investigators".

    I'm not going to stake a large bet on his innocence, but all we know is that a police department with a long history of corruption and incompetence has accused him of crimes and then shot a couple Asian women they mistook for him.

  • fish||

    But Dorner makes a terrible choice for a folk hero. ....

    I suppose I have mixed feelings. I won't weep when LAPD finally greases Dorner nor will I weep if he thins the fat blue herd a bit more while he is on the run. What can I say I don't feel terribly sympathetic either way.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Lots of history's folk heroes are terrible choices. Look at Che Guevara.

  • ||

    At least Dorner doesn't have a flattering portrait to silk screen onto shirts, shoes, caps etc.

  • Sevo||

    Neither does Che.

  • ||

    I just looked up the original iconic photo, he looks surprisingly like something from planet of the apes. Point Sevo.

  • Sevo||

    Thanks, but I thought the image looked like some dumb thug you might find in an alley.
    Which is pretty much what he was.

  • ||

    Hmm, that read more racial than I intended, he just has something funky going on with his mustache.

    My aunt kept a (more flattering) picture of him up in her office all the time. People would ask why when he was responsible for so many deaths and she would reply "I know but I'm glad there are people LIKE him in the world" nobody could ever figure out what the hell that was supposed to mean.

  • Generic Stranger||

    Err...did you ever check her crawlspace for bodies? Just sayin'....

  • Sevo||

    That'd make me nervous, too. You mean the world needs more mass murderers?

  • ||

    She's delightful provided you aren't in a militia or splinter religious group, but I figure they're the most likely to be able to defend themselves.

  • Calidissident||

    Why would that be racial? Guevara, like most Argentinians, was primarily of white European descent. He might have had a bit of indigenous blood somewhere along the line, but would not qualify as a mestizo in Latin America

  • ||

    I've been impressed by how often something I've said innocently has been offensive (my extended family is 50% proggies and 50% hardcore evangelicals, there's always something to be offended by) so I just apologize reflexively. I've been mistaken for Canadian a surprising number of times.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I've been mistaken for Canadian a surprising number of times.

    Maybe you shouldn't put a dab of maple syrup behind your ears before you leave the house.

  • ||

    That would probably also prevent the early morning bite attacks from coworkers moaning "waffles!"

  • ||

    I think it was Reggie Dunlap that said "most folk heroes start out as criminals".

  • ||

    The fact that the fucking police shot up multiple cars and people because they sort of looked like Dorner's car is a much better rallying point to fight against police abuse, because it's fucking egregious. Yet they get away with it.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    My in-laws live two blocks from where the pigs blasted the Newspaper ladies. My brother in law is black, 5'10", and about 230 lbs. Yesterday at lunch, my wife and I seriously encouraged him to stay with us in Long Beach until Dorner is found. Poor kid is going to get killed checking the mail on his front porch.

    Fuck the LAPD. Fuck Torrance PD. Fuck Michigan!

  • db||

    The site of the shooting at Beryl and Flagler is just down the street from where my sister in law used to live on Ripley. It's right near an elementary school and playground/public park. If they keep it up they may end up accidentally shooting into a school too.

  • Ted S.||

    Is it near any pet stores, too?

  • Hugh Akston||

    My new neighbor drives a pickup truck. not the same make or model or color as Dorner's, but that doesn't seem to matter much to the Black Shirts. I advised her to put a sign on her tailgate just in case.

  • Generic Stranger||

  • In Time Of War||

    Food for thought while driving around...it's possible someone nearby has committed a violent crime of which you're unaware and is escaping in a vehicle somewhat like yours.
    Think of that the next time you see flashing lights in your rear-view mirror.

  • ||

    Whatever you do, DO NOT admit to accidentally stealing a can of tuna.

  • In Time Of War||

    What is a yute?

  • Sevo||

    "is escaping in a vehicle somewhat like yours."

    Problem here is that the LAPD seems to think that four wheels makes one vehicle 'somewhat like' another.
    Are you bipedally ambulatory? Why, in that case, you might be Dorner!

  • entropy||

    Civilians all look the same.

  • LarryA||

    There was a story a while back (which I didn't bookmark and have been looking for since) about a woman driving with her kids who pulled into a parking lot and ended up in a full-bore felony stop. Turns out the LEOs had a tip that a dangerous felon in an identical make, model, and color car was going to turn into that parking lot.

    They got the woman out of the way and caught the felon when he showed up.

    Pure coincidence.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Between Dorner murdering people as part of his insane revenge plot and the LAPD showering anything that twitches with a hail of bullets, there are truly no good guys in this story.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    Time to huddle inside away from the drive by police shootings.

  • ||

    Well, the thing is that between him being, you know, a murderer and the police shooting anyone who even looks at them funny, it would just be best for the people of California if he got caught as soon as possible before anyone else gets hurt or killed.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    Him being caught = possible

    California police not being spineless cowards with guns = impossible.

    It's a lose lose situation.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Oh yeah. Sort of like how kids hope that nothing happened at work today to set off their abusive father.

  • ||

  • ||

    As soon as I saw a link was posted, I was hoping it was that sketch.

    You win!

  • ||

    What do I win? Is it a date with Hugh's mom?

  • fish||

    Congratulations! You do know there is a rather extensive waiting list.

  • ||

    I thought that was the waiting list for your mom.

  • fish||

    I thought that was the waiting list for your mom.

    Nahh! She's dead! But if you're into that kind of thing....let me know and I'll tell you where you can find her!

  • ||

    +1 graveyard shift

  • Sevo||

    And 2nd prize is....
    Aw, screw it.

  • Killazontherun||

    That's how we so good night in my household.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    SOMEONE SAID HOWITZER!

  • Tman||

    Hey Look! It's Enrico Pallazzo!

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    One of the pictures Reason used before made me think Dorner is a white guy.

  • Ed||

    That was Bill Bratton. Dorner was the black guy next to him.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Not that picture. The picture I am thinking of showed only Dorner, but apparently in lots of sunlight.

  • Ed||

    I was just being dense. I actually think I've seen the photo

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "That's exactly what Dorner would put on his shirt!"

    BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM

  • Hugh Akston||

    Also, y'all, Dorner is not going to get caught. Even if he walked buck naked into a police station with his hands above his head, he would die in a hail of gunfire. This isn't about public safety to the LAPD.

  • RBS||

    Yeah, they've made it pretty obvious they're trying to kill him.

  • ||

    Yes, I would say that firing blind--twice--into a car that sort of looks like his is a pretty blatant "shoot on sight" order.

  • Generic Stranger||

    Three times, it's looking like...though I'm not sure if the third is simply getting confused with the second.

  • Generic Stranger||

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    That would seriously violate his Constitutional rights.

  • db||

    Blah blah IMMINENT DANGER rhubarb rhubarb blah OFFICER SAFETY blah NOT A SUICIDE PACT blah blah blah blah COMMON SENSE EXCEPTIONS.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    That's questionable. He's killed three people and publicly stated that he intends to kill more and doesn't care about being killed himself. He's extremely skilled with firearms. This is a case where I'd be OK with shooting first and asking questions later, as long as you know it's really Dorner you're shooting at, obviously.

  • SweatingGin||

    If you're not sure it's him, just yell "He's coming right at us!"

  • Generic Stranger||

    It'd be funny if that's not pretty much the same thing the police said after the second incident...

  • Agammamon||

    "He's extremely skilled with firearms."

    I'm not sure where you're gettin that from. Yeah he got a marksman ribbon for shooting, but he got a "navy" marksman ribbon. We basically have the lowest small arms expertise requirement of any of the services (well maybe not lower than the AF but pretty damn close).

    This is the same navy that expend roughly *18* rounds of ammo per sailor each *year* and say that if you can hit the paper that's good enough to qualify to carry.

    Psst - don't tell anyone but we usually don't allow our sentries to keep their weapons loaded because we tend to shoot ourselves when turning over the watch.

  • ||

    we usually don't allow our sentries to keep their weapons loaded

    What does that mean? Empty magazine in the weapon?

    When I was giving sentry duty in the Hungarian People's Army, we had a 30 round fully loaded magazine in our AK-63s; of course there was no round chambered. At watch turnover we went back to the sentry hut, and went through the normal disarming process: rifle put vertically into a boxlike thing which had a wooden box filled with sand on the top; removed the magazine, cocked the weapon (which would have ejected any round in the chamber) then pushed down on the trigger... which released the hammer. If someone fucked up the order and did the cocking first then removed the magazine, fired a round into the sandbox... and got three or so days in the stockade.

  • Mr. Weebles||

    I was in the World's Largest Canoe Club from 88 to 92 and we carried a 1911 on QD watch in port fully loaded, round in the mag. When in port overseas we had foc'sle and aft deck watches with loaded M14s and Rem 870s.

    Did they change the protocol? If they're not going to let you carry a loaded weapon they might as well give you a goddamned hammer to carry around.

  • wingnutx||

    Getting a 'marksman' ribbon just means that you don't shoot 'expert'. He got the lowest of the three quals.

    Dorner was an an NECC command, so he's supposed to qual at least once per year, but that doesn't always happen, especially for officers.

    He was the intel officer, so he probably has mad skillz with PowerPoint.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    That is exactly what almost happened in Three Strikes. If he is going to turn himself in, he needs to call the media as witnesses.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I saw that at the theater. Good film.

  • ||

    That's actually a really good idea.
    If I was Dorner.

    It would be the perfect moment for him to stage his own surrender under the media spotlight, then, taking the stand in his own defense, use it to deliver a condemnation of the LAPD's culture.

  • sloopyinca||

    It might work, but he's not out to cause a few people to lose their jobs. This crazy fuck is out there to literally destroy lives.

    It's a shame, because we need someone to rally around that is willing to expose police abuse. Serpico this guy ain't.

  • ||

    If he wasn't a crazy nutjob, sure. He's a lot more likely to do exactly what you wrote, except except everything after the word "spotlight" is replaced with "then he tries to blow himself up".

  • Ted S.||

    And surrender in a different jurisdiction.

  • fish||

    This isn't about public safety to the LAPD.

    Fire at will! boys...remember there are asses to cover and pensions to collect

  • fish||

    Goddam exclamation points...always showing up right where you don't want them.

  • SweatingGin||

    Keep firing, assholes!

  • The Late P Brooks||

    an evaluation in which Evans noted that he needed to show improvement in three categories, including the time it took to write reports, officer safety and use of common sense and good judgment.

    "Son, you got to get your mind right."

  • wheelock||

    A blue truck! And look! It's comin right for us!

  • Bardas Phocas||

    Colonel Trautman: Then put out a nation wide APB. In a couple of weeks you'll pick him up in Seattle or someplace, working in a car wash.

  • sloopyinca||

    LA Times opinion writer comes up with a bizarre justification for disarming all fired police officers. And not only that, apparently he doesn't understand the 2nd Amendment or what police officers are trained to do.

    FTA (emphasis mine): True, there may be a constitutional problem with that idea. He's still a citizen, presumably with a 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. That doubtless would be the argument of gun-rights groups.

    He wasn't convicted of a crime. If we're going to confiscate the weapons of an axed cop or subject him to psychological testing, shouldn't we also take that precaution with, say, a fired fast-food burger-flipper?

    Well, no, there's a difference: We expect and demand more from police, who have been trained at public expense to be expert killers.

    That's right. This is what passes for a journalist in America.

  • ||

    "trained to be expert killers" lucky that's not true for those delivery ladies.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I think it's safe to say the LAPD has killed expertise.

  • fish||

    Dorner seemingly was law-abiding — until he wasn't.

    Mr Skelton knows that eventually all you guys are going to snap and go a killing spree.

  • ||

    "LA Times opinion writer"

    I think I see the problem.

    There also may be constitutional problem with keeping that fuckwit from being closer than 50 feet to any writing implement.

    Did I miss it or has dumbfy weighed in on this story yet? He usually goes strangely silent when cops do something indefensible. I cant figure that out.

  • KevinP||

    The killer Christopher Dorner is a lefty who advocates for gun control:
    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013.....n-the-web/

    His full uncensored manifesto is here:
    http://hiphopandpolitics.wordp.....er-dorner/

  • Ted S.||

    Everything for the gun control narrative; nothing against the gun control narrative; nothing outside the gun control narrative.

  • SusanM||

    Nice to see the keepers of the peace are "expert killers". Does the author of that article not feel a little uneasy with that?

  • ||

    I'm wondering why Dorner wasn't protected under some kind of whistleblower statute. Surely the LAPD has some sort internal investigation department and some sort of system for cops to report abusive behavior by other cops. Why isn't there a standing rule that protects cops who wish to report behavior? Even if the cop in question ultimately isn't found guilty, or fired, it seems odd to fire the person who came forward with the allegation. If Dorner had a long history of making false allegations of abuse, that would be one thing, but this seems to have been the first and only time Dorner made one. He was fired before his probationary period ended.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    According to his manifesto, he had other (unofficial) conflicts/run-ins with other officers. He did display a pattern of not tolerating bullshit from his fellow officers. Clearly, he needed to be weeded out.

  • playa manhattan||

    He also accidentally shot himself in the academy. 3 day suspension.

  • SweatingGin||

    Well, no, there's a difference: We expect and demand more from police, who have been trained at public expense to be expert killers.

    From sloopy's article above.

    I guess I always figured, if I accidentally shot myself, I'd have to just start a new life. Never show my face there, or even in the same vicinity again. I can imagine it being a "patch it up at home" trick to avoid telling anyone. If it was in a place where people would necessarily see, like police training, well, it's time to go disappear in south america.

  • playa manhattan||

    It is also somewhat surprising that he was not automatically terminated for that. It's not like he was in the territory where he would get a paid suspension for a DUI arrest, he was an at-will employee who had not yet passed probation.

    It is almost Simpsons level incompetence at the LAPD

    Chief Wiggum: "All right, you scrawny beanpoles: becoming a cop is *not* something that happens overnight. It takes one solid weekend of training to get that badge!"

  • SweatingGin||

    Chief Wiggum: Well, shut my mouth. It's also illegal to put squirrels down your pants for the purposes of gambling. Boys, knock it off!

  • ||

    Indeed, why fire him for reporting police brutality, when they had a perfectly reasonable excuse (incompetence at firearm safety) for terminating him already?

    It's like the LAPD doesn't think accidentally shooting yourself is a problem, but they think that being a tattletale is.

  • playa manhattan||

    He also showed up to an academy run one day in bright orange shoes after the cadets were explicitly told to only wear black or white shoes. As LAPD describes itself as having "A para-military organizational structure", I am surprised that he didn't get separated (fired) for doing that either....

  • entropy||

    Accidentally shooting hispanic ladies isn't high on the list either.

    Nor, apparently, accidentally shooting other officers in the back while firing at a perp who looked like he might have gun. Or anyone you see while looking for a perp. Or pets.

  • ||

    Right. Accidentally shooting civilians won't get you fired from the LAPD. But accusing another cop of beating a suspect will.

  • ||

    "I can imagine it being a "patch it up at home" trick to avoid telling anyone."

    Clearly you have never been shot.

    Having said that, I laughed because your sentiment is exactly the same as mine. I understand perfectly what you said.

  • Generic Stranger||

    It kind of depends on where you get shot and what with. A grazing wound from a .22LR could probably be patched up pretty easy. .45 ACP through the thigh? Not so much.

  • sloopyinca||

    I'm wondering why Dorner wasn't protected under some kind of whistleblower statute.

    I believe SGSS, or the "Snitches Get Stitches Statute," has precedence over any whistleblower laws when it comes to the cops.

  • sarcasmic||

    Why isn't there a standing rule that protects cops who wish to report behavior?

    Because there is a standing rule that punishes cops who wish to report behavior. Look. People do not seek out a job that allows them to beat the shit out of people who cannot fight back unless they like to beat the shit out of people who cannot fight back. It's a perk of the job. Cook for a living and you eat cheap. Car salesmen often do not own a car of their own. They drive something off the lot and bring it back the next day. When you deal in violence as your trade, you get to use it when you have a bad day. Perks.

  • Ted S.||

    Surely the LAPD has some sort internal investigation department and some sort of system for cops to report abusive behavior by other cops.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [catches breath]

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Whistleblower statutes only offer protection when the allegations you make are true. All the evidence in this case says that Dorner was wrong when he accused the other cop.

  • ||

    That can't be right. If you tell people "you can come forward and report problems, but if you can't prove it, we're going to assume you lied and fire you", you're going to discourage people from reporting problems.

    Now, I realize that may be the LAPD's MO. I'm just saying that the LAPD's story doesn't really make much ethical sense. Under NORMAL (non-LAPD) ethics rules, you don't fire people for making a complaint. You protect people from making a complaint from retaliation. That's the whole fucking essence of whistleblower laws, and it's rule number one in any corporate ethics handbook.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Dorner says in his 'manifesto' that the people on the review board will all friends with each other, that he tried to get several replaced on conflict of interest grounds and that they conspired to get rid of him.

    Sounds pretty accurate to me.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Of course it does, since that's what you want to believe.

  • ||

    Right. It sounds to me like Dorner broke the "code of silence" about police abuse. he wasn't supposed to snitch on his probationary office. And the LAPD closed ranks around her, and nobody would admit to having seen her kick the guy.
    Then, Dorner got pissed off because he wasn't lying, and felt that his honor was being impugned, and made an even bigger stink and that poisoned his relationship with the Department so they conspired to get rid of him.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It is right. Sorry.

    And it makes sense -- if anybody making any accusation is protected, then you're encouraging people to make false accusations.

  • Michael S. Langston||

    Agreed. The military has a statute that anyone making certain types of claims which demand investigations must start the process by first filling out a legal affidavit. Meaning that lying on such a form is subject to perjury laws.

    Of course lack of evidence doesn't mean the accused is lying necessarily, but that one step likely reduces the incentive to make things up.

  • ||

    If a person displays a pattern of making false accusation that's one thing.

    But sexual harassment and ethics policy explicitly states that company can't retaliate against someone for making an ethics complaint or a sexual harassment complaint, even if nothing comes of it.

    This is standard practice in every corporation I've ever worked for. You don't fire people for making singular complaints, even if they turn out to be wrong.

    Whatever policy the LAPD is following is different from every policy I've ever heard of relating to workplace ethics.

  • sarcasmic||

    I don't know what's worse.

    That this guy will kill innocent people to punish the guilty, that the guilty will kill innocent people in fear, or that nothing will change.

  • Romulus Augustus||

    Maybe he should have spent some time using his awesome investigative software to find and target those actually responsible for his firing?

  • entropy||

    Actually I googled all those terms. They all basically mean googling shit, and using mapquest.

    ISR is Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance. He'll do that using OSINT, Open Source INTelligence, that means he read your facebook page. Then when he finds your address in the phone book (moar OSINT), he will use IMINT, IMagery INTelligence, to see what your house looks like before he gets there on Google Earth and Google Earth Streetview.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    I change the siding everytime google updates its imagery

  • entropy||

    That sounds like a pain in the ass.

    I just paint my house with lemon juice.

  • sticks||

    Fuck Dorner. Fuck the LAPD.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Why isn't there a standing rule that protects cops who wish to report behavior?

    That would require an arm's length relationship between the police and the review authority.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • Stormy Dragon||

    There's currently 25 other people wanted for outstanding arrest warrants for murder in LA County:

    http://www.lacountymurders.com/wanted_suspects.cfm

    None of them have triggered the sort of massive manhunt that Dorner has.

    Hmm. I wonder what the distinguishing factor that made the Dorener case such a high priority was?

  • Rich||

    Probably "Last in, first out".
    /sarc

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Have these 25 people published specific threats about killing more people, and stating that they don't care about being killed as long as they kill a bunch of other people first?

  • ||

    yea. you noticed that bogus analogy here. H&R'ers are expert at inexpert bogus comparisons.

    dorner is not just a murder suspect. he is a murder suspect who has vowed to kill specific other targets. that makes him wholly distinguishable from the garden variety murder suspect.

  • Almanian!||

    Nice broad brush you're sporting there, derpfee.

    Don't you have a supermodel to ravish?

  • ||

    it's a broad brush that's accurately stroked.

  • PapayaSF||

    I get your point, but killing three people might also have something to do with it.

    But my, isn't that a Celebrate Diversity list? Not a white person on it.

  • Rich||

    Thank goodness there are some women, though.

  • TheSpiteHouse||

    2 Asian guys, zero white guys? That's almost odd (even if it is the West Coast).

  • Zeb||

    Yes, the fact that he is going after cops makes a difference. But he is also reasonably believed to be actively seeking to kill others, which I think fairly distinguishes this from other outstanding murder warrants.

  • playa manhattan||

    Any guesses as to what he needed the scuba equipment for? Hiding bodies?

    http://www.dailybreeze.com/new.....ner-buying

  • entropy||

    Maybe he's just crazy and thinks he's in a movie, or maybe it's just a misdirection, or maybe he just likes to scuba dive and wanted to take solace one last time from his love of marine biology before going all murderspree, or MAYBE the scuba tanks are just a pretext to buy oxygen gas.

    And if he's buying oxygen gas, he could be trying to build an IED. Or suffocate plants.

  • playa manhattan||

    He was part of the underwater warfare division or whatever it is called in the Navy.

    If I am going to write a screenplay, I need more than this.....

  • Agammamon||

    Yeah, that means submarines and submarine support - not commando raids.

  • Agammamon||

    Uh, you don't get oxygen from scuba tanks - they're filled with air and no-one is going to fill then with O2 (for liability reason if nothing else).

    You wouldn't use O2 for an IED anyway.

  • entropy||

    IED means improvised. You can if you want to.

    And as for scuba tanks, that's what I thought because pure oxygen would kill you, but the media report says he left with tanks full of oxygen, so unless you have a journalism degree (from a good school not some state university), I will accept your apology.

  • entropy||

    He could be trying to suffocate fish.

  • SweatingGin||

    Oh, he's gotta be going full action movie.

    Either come up out of a lagoon to shoot cops (bonus points for a bow and arrow), or hoping to do a jaws-style kaboom.

  • LarryA||

    Action Movie 101: Out of a lagoon you have to use a spear gun. Or a trident if you're old school.

  • Agammamon||

    Mythbusters already disproved that so he'll be dissapointed if he tries (so will I).

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Has anyone linked this guy to the pope yet?

  • ||

    I'm guessing that Peter Turkson will be named and then it will actually be Dorner wearing the hat and coming out blasting.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Has any more information come out on the fire fight that Dorner supposedly got in on Thursday morning with two LAPD officers in Corona?

    Because the official story is transparently bullshit.

  • playa manhattan||

    Which parts? From my understanding, Dorner approached one of the potential targets in Corona (lots of LAPD officers live in the Inland Empire, it's a lot cheaper than the LA area) and the protective detail from LAPD (which may or may not have been in a marked patrol car) got lit up by his AR-15 to the point that the car wasn't driveable anymore. One of the LAPD officers had a graze wound on his head.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You can really see the growing disconnection of Reasonoids from reality with this story. Mein Gott.

  • ||

    it's giving them opportunity to jump on the "cops suck" train... logic falls by the wayside in the rush to jump on and let out triumphant yawps about how incompetent the cops are. if only the reasonoid couch potato brigade was on the case we'd be so much better off

  • ||

    the pictures show a marked LAPD cruiser riddled with bullets.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Are you sure you aren't confusing it with the newspaper delivery truck that was riddled with bullets?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Which parts? From my understanding, Dorner approached one of the potential targets in Corona (lots of LAPD officers live in the Inland Empire, it's a lot cheaper than the LA area) and the protective detail from LAPD (which may or may not have been in a marked patrol car) got lit up by his AR-15 to the point that the car wasn't driveable anymore

    The original story was that an LAPD unit on protective detail in Corona, meaning that they were on official duty 40 miles outside their jurisdiction, were 'tipped off' by a 'civilian' about the presence of Dorner in the area and then "fired on him" at which point he returned fire and disabled their vehicle.

    Seriously this it transparent bullshit. Anyone that believes it is a fucking idiot. Which is probably why the details have vanished from media reports, replaced by the equally absurd narrative that you've repeated.

  • ||

    good article. i speculated just what this article revealed in an earlier post, that there probably was not physical evidence of the kick, if he was going to get fired for dishonesty in alleging the kick.

    either way, the LAPD (or the specific officers involved more correctly) should be embarassed beyond words for the newspaper delivery shooting. sure, they were scared. and i can tell you - tactics, common sense, etc. etc. can deteriorate substantially in a climate of fear, but that's no excuse.

    you MUST identify a target before shooting, and they clearly kneejerked and were trigger happy and innocents suffered. they are an embarassment to law enforcement.

    dorner, btw, is not an officer on a murderous rampage. he's an EX-officer. that point cannot be reemphasized enough. and he is an awful folk hero - targeting PURE innocents (quan's daughter) is just despicable.

  • ||

    i'm really proud of how officers in the pac NW rallied together in the manhunt for clemons after he murdered 4 lakewood officers. he was enventually taken out by a hyperalert officer safety conscious SPD officer, an officer that clemons did everything to set up for an ambush, by leaving a stolen car with the hood up and waiting for an officer to drive by and notice it. every officer in my agency, and in the state was on eggshells while clemons was at large, knowing that he was gunning to take some more of us out, but we didn't shoot newspaper delivery girls or any other innocents. LAPD et al - take note.

    giving in to fear is weakness and police officers should represent strength and resolve. hopefully, dorner is captured or killed before he can kill anybody else, but his being at large is no excuse for recklessness on the part of socal leo's. man the fuck up guys and do the job right.

  • playa manhattan||

    Just curious. What is the LEO perception of the LAPD in other parts of the country? I don't know how long it has been since you were at UCSB, but did you get a feel for it then? When most people think of the LAPD, they think of 6'3" roided up white guys with military haircuts, but every encounter of mine with the LAPD has been with 5'3" 110lb or less latinas with what I assume to be minimal firearms experience....

    Having more information about the officers involved in the pickup truck incident would certainly help me make up my mind on the matter. Either the LAPD is Judge, Jury, and Executioner, or, they hire incredibly incompetent officers. I would hope it would be the latter, as it is more easily fixed than a "corporate culture" problem...

  • ||

    we were joking about LAPD today. a few of the officers i work with are LAPD laterals.

    I also took the test for LAPD when i graduated college. i'd say the view is of mostly big "roided" up guys but the perception has changed a bit. the guys who lit up the newspaper driver obviously were incompetent, but on the whole i think LAPD has a pretty good rep. i did a few ride-alongs with LAPD when i got out of college and all 3 officers i rode with were ToTaLLY impressive. they may have been cherry picked by the watch commander, but they were totally squared away.

    i'd also like to know more about the officers involved in the pickup truck incident. were they salty streetwise cops or something else?

  • playa manhattan||

    What year did you apply? I don't mean to make you feel old, but things may have changed since then.

    My gut feeling on the protective detail is that the first officers to sign up for the overtime were the ones who got it.

  • ||

    i applied back around 1990. i really like LAPD but in retrospect, i'm glad to be where i am. very good agency, plus i got invaluable deep undercover experience a few years after i applied to LAPD, something that not one cop in a thousand gets an opportunity to do. so, in retrospect, it worked out well.

    you are probably right about the OT.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    invaluable deep undercover experience

    did it involve stripers and handjobs?

  • ||

    i got to work deep undercover. it's RARELY done. even the DEA/FBI rarely do it anymore. too dangerous. it's all about informants, etc.

    the experience i got was invaluable. i got to hang out with druggies and weapons guys 24/7 as "one of them" and saw the entire seedy world from the inside. ridiculously dangerous, stressful and i wouldn't do it again for any amount of money. but great experience to have.

    no gun, no wire, no cover. just me and the perps hangin' out

  • playa manhattan||

    1990? Holy shit. I was 11 years old then (33 now). A lot has changed since then...

    That explains why I had to look up your RTRG reference... Dinosaur!

  • VG Zaytsev||

    also took the test for LAPD when i graduated college.

    I thought that you said you said that you started your career as a cop in Hawaii that later 'lateraled' to Seattle.

  • LTC(ret) John||

    Pre 0r post Mr. Olympia title and marrying Morgan Fairchild?

  • Almanian!||

    LAPD - Making Detroit PD look competent less imcompetent by comparison.

  • Almanian!||

    No, fuck you, cut spending!

    Also, fried chicken.

    Fuck California.

    That is all.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    and my axe!

  • Almanian!||

    I just noticed how cylindrically symmetric my post is. That's just lovely, innit?!

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    One does not simply comment on Reason.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Norks reaction to Papal resignation

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    10 year old killed by man randomly shooting at cars.

  • Coeus||

    Was he LAPD?

  • ||

    the corona shooting, if it was dorner, and probably it was, emphasizes he's still active, and the protective details better be on high alert. thankfully, the lapd cop was only grazed.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Do you have any info on what happened there?

  • Coeus||

    OT and insane:

    France upholds bans on paternity tests.

    Don’t worry! There’s no mistake in the title. It is true – French men are forbidden by law to attempt to find out whether the child they are paying for is in fact their child or not. In fact, it has been illegal for men to attempt to find out if their child is theirs for many years. But a few days ago, the ban was challenged once again–and the government upheld the ban.....

    One should understand the risks involved before making a paternity ensuring beforehand that the delivery address is not subjected to the French law. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, not only the shipment may be confiscated by the customs but you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code ). The Supreme Court, the civil matters section, has sole jurisdiction to hear actions concerning filiation....

    Moreover, Germany is now planning to do the same thing – to ban men from finding out the truth.

    Holy shit.

  • ||

    that shit makes me seethe. govt. making it illegal to seek out truth.

  • Coeus||

    govt. making it illegal to seek out truth.

    Coming soon to a state near you. This is one of those "baptists and bootleggers" issues. Feminists and fiscal conservatives are defending this kind of thing in numerous states.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Makes sense given the French aversion to monogamy.

  • Coeus||

    I don't think the frenchie's sexual habits have a whole lot to do with this.

    In 20 states, once a man is paying child support, he cannot challenge paternity, but in the other 30 States, he has only 24 Months to learn he's not the father, and file a challenge against being obligated to pay child support. These restrictions are not equally applied to the mothers in a defense of a challenge for custody by the father.
    In January of 2009, the Kansas Legislature turned down the passage of a law to allow challenges to paternity even in cases where the man has never had contact with the child. The issue rose from a case involving a man who had a claim filed against him while on Active Military Duty when he was unable to return to the US to challenge the claim. Child support claims not limited by the Soldiers & Sailors Civil Relief Act of 1990 (SScRA).
    In June of 2009, Missouri became the 30th state to pass the law. Signed by Governor Jay Nixon, it followed the pattern of the other states with the law of having a 24 month limit on a man to learn he's not the father of the child, whether or not he's had contact.
  • Paul.||

    In an extremely rare move (California police disciplinary records are about as hard to get access to as the White House’s drone regulations), LAPD Charlie Beck has reopened the case that ultimately got Dorner sacked and let the media take a look. The Times reviewed the records:

    Is that possibly the meat thrown to the dogs? Ie, keeping the media attention on the real story: that when cops get jumpy, they actually make the public less safe, not more safe? That the LA PD isn't racist, that they'll shoot randomly at anyone, regardless of skin color? That they're lucky they didn't kill someone's kid playing XBox in their living room when they started spraying the entire town with bullets?

    Yeah, give NPR access to disciplinary records so they'll quit barking about the fact that the entire police philosophy needs a complete overhaul.

  • ||

    wow. amazing the way you can draw all these conclusions about THE police, from AN incident. the newspaper shooting was a fuckup. it doesn't therefore follow that all cops are fuckups.

    some cops fucked up. cops are human and imperfect. they got scared,. they fucked up.

  • Coeus||

    wow. amazing the way you can draw all these conclusions about THE police, from AN incident.

    Actually, I believe they're up to three now. So how many, in your expert opinion, are required before we're allowed to make some logical conclusions about police tactics?

  • ||

    which three?

    and the issue isn't police tactics. it's individual officers NOT using proper tactics, because they are scared.

    officers are imperfect. you can't wring that out of the system. we are agencies of human beings, with weaknesses. on the whole, police are very circumspect about who and how often they shoot. stats bear that out. OBVIOUSLY, there are exceptions, because we are human and imperfect. the officers in the newspaper shooting, for example, didn't identify the target. that's NOT police tactics. that's the opposite of what they are supposed to do. because they are human and they fucked up

  • Coeus||

    Here's another:

    A second shooting, involving Torrance police officers, occurred about 5:45 a.m. at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street in Torrance. No injuries were reported in that incident.

    Chase said that in both instances police came across vehicles they thought were similar to the one Dorner is believed to be driving. Neither vehicle was Dorner's.

    "Now it appears neither of them are directly related," Chase said. "In both of them, officers believed they were at the time."

    And someone linked to a third up-thread.

  • Paul.||

    and the issue isn't police tactics. it's individual officers NOT using proper tactics, because they are scared.

    One incident involved MULTIPLE police officers. What was the bullet count? Over 40 rounds fired, some embedded in the houses around the incident?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    the newspaper shooting was a fuckup.

    And a non-cop guilty of that kind of "fuckup" would go to prison for a long, long time. Not soliciting funds from donors to buy a new truck.

  • ||

    a non-cop would rarely be in that situation, in other words having the mens rea and thinking they were shooting a bad guy. we'll see what happens and get the WHOLE fact pattern at a later date. i certainly don't know enough about the shooting to know what charges are warranted.

    but yes, again, it's the double standard derp derp derp train .

  • Paul.||

    Double standard writ large. I believe that Prof. Tulpa pointed out (asked, really) in a previous thread, what would have happened had the occupant of one of the trucks not matching Dorner's thought for a brief moment that they were under attack* and fired back and god forbid, hit or killed one of the officers?

    *what the hell am I talking about, they were under attack.

  • Zeb||

    That's a good question. In that case, I would think it should be OK to return fire, even if completely aware that they were police. I don't care who is shooting at you, you have the right to shoot back if you aren't doing anything wrong.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I notice that you said before that we should wait and see what happens. Now it's pretty clear that the cops won't be charged with anything. What do you think about that?

  • ||

    i don't know enough about the shootin to know if that;'s a good decision or not. all i've read is a brief media blurb.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    But you knew enough about the cops murdering of Andrew Scott to call it a righteous shoot

    Fuck you, you mendacious cunt.

  • Paul.||

    Uhh, AN incident?

    I think we're up to three, as Coes said above. And I haven't heard word one of any of the officers involved being put on trial, let alone fired and never being allowed to come within 1000 feet of a firearm again.

    The fact that there are now multiple incidents tells you right away that there's a culture problem at work here- especially considering that they're ramming trucks which neither match tbhe make, model or color of Dorner's truck, and opening fire on the occupants who neither match the make, model or color of Dorner.

    The only thing working in the LAPD's favor here is they haven't killed the wrong person yet.

  • ||

    i like the assumption train early in this thread. goes along with the PREjudging thing, the assumption that dorner was wrongly fired. iow, yes he did report on misconduct and got fired because of it. sure, that's POSSIBLE, but it's hardly obvious, and the forensics didn't match his story (the kick) - no injuries consistent with a kick, no forensics consistent with it, etc. but the metanarrative must be fed, therefore dorner was fired because he reported on misconduct. because that's the story that NEEDS to be true, so it must be true

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Everything I've seen said he got fired for filing a false accusation against a fellow cop.

  • ||

    that's my point. but read the thread. the assumption of many reasonoids is that he was reporting on MISCONDUCT/ that's a better "story".

    the official story (and consistent with forensics) is that he made the shit up about his training officer delivering the kick, most likely as retaliation for a performance evaluation

  • Whahappan?||

    "iow, yes he did report on misconduct and got fired because of it. sure, that's POSSIBLE, but it's hardly obvious, and the forensics didn't match his story (the kick) - no injuries consistent with a kick, no forensics consistent with it, etc."

    Who did the forensics? As you well know, crime labs and CSI's are as corrupt as the rest of the LEO community.

  • ||

    It's entirely possible that the other cops closed ranks and refused to admit having seen any beating. Also, the father of the man did say that his son told him the cop kicked him. So it's not like there's ZERO evidence that the allegation might have been true.

    Let me also point out that this guy came out of the post-Abu-Ghraib military where soldiers were likely being instructed to report any infraction however minor. And he probably took the LAPD at it's word when during training it fed him some bullshit about reporting police brutality to internal investigations. So he was likely caught by surprise when it turned out that (no surprise) the LAPD has an internal culture and it involves not snitching on your fellow officers.

  • ||

    This Sunday I got a small taste of the police violating my rights. I'm still freaked out, even though no one was threatened. I was sleeping, here is my friends account of what happened at my house:

    The unidentified officer visited at about 5 am EST this morning, February 10, 2013. We heard the door click so I got up to see who was entering the front door. By the time I made it to the stairs the officer had quietly crept about halfway up the stairs. Once I greeted him he stopped. Your Wife came over towards the stairs. He said that he was responding to a noise complaint and asked about another unit in the building. I pointed out that there were a few people talking and he said the complaint was loud talking. I moment later I asked him to confirm that he was responding to a complaint of loud talking and he confirmed it. Your wife explained that it was a birthday party. He saw some balloons at the top of the stairs and seemed satisfied. We did not ask him to leave but he did so on his own.

    He was in full uniform which is one reason we were not more alarmed at a stranger creeping up the stairs in the middle of the night.

    The door was likely unlocked from when your tenant left a short while earlier (maybe about 10 to 15 minutes). When he asked about the other unit your wife and I explained to him that there was another unit and that the tenant had left the room only a few minutes before. He understood that the other unit had been empty all evening.

  • ||

    Should have gotten a name and badge number.

  • ||

    I have it now, going through the complaints process.....

  • ||

    Well the Norks tested a nuke today. It is days like today that I am glad I am 26 and no longer eligible for the draft. Also today I learned that I was supposed to update my address for the last 8 years... oops. Registering for SS was libertarian leaning argument with my parents. They rightly pointed out that it would impede my ability to get loans for grad school later and used cutting me off of college support as the stick but I wasn't happy about it.

  • ||

    *first*

  • ||

    tuLPA, I gotta sign off for the night, but just to clarify... in my post a few days ago, i said that the shooters of the newspaper truck deserved to be charged. that was based on the media account i read of the incident. if you are saying it's now been determined that they are not to be charged, then that is different from my opinion, however i am open to more facts about what actually happened, and maybe i would change my mind or not. but based on what i know / knew of the incident, shooting at the truck recklessly as it moved along delivering papers deserved criminal charges. maybe there is more to the story. i don't know since i haven't read anything else on it in last few days.

    and with that... signing off. didn't want you to think i was ducking the uqestion, because it's an important one

  • XM||

    I'll side with the police in their hunt against Dorner. There are good cops out there looking for him. Iraqis who hated American presence Iraq had no problem reporting suspicious activities to their "occupiers", which is one of the reasons Al Qaida's presence has waned there. Once you start killing innocent people to address an injustice, you lose credibility.

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    "Once you start killing innocent people to address an injustice, you lose credibility." *

    * Not Applicable to the LAPD

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    Oh, and by the way, what you choose to call Hell, Dorner calls Home.

  • some guy||

    Is this a bad time to be a large, dark-skinned man in Southern California?

    The first two people shot were relatively small, Asian women. I think it's a bad to be anyone in Southern California.

  • some guy||

    ^bad time

  • LTC(ret) John||

    Well, bad for "civilians" anyway.

  • Mike M.||

    Has everyone read Dorner's "manifesto", which Reason for some odd reason has barely even bothered to mention? This psychopath is Obama's voting base.

  • wingnutx||

    He sure loves Dianne Feinstein.

  • wingnutx||

    Dorner has a history of failing, then trying unsuccessfully to drag others down with him by leveling accusations at his peers and superiors.

    The more that comes out, the more he looks like an assclown.

    Inflating his abilities by dropping all sorts of military buzzwords might impress reporters, but it's transparently pathetic to anyone who knows anything about the military.

  • 16th amendment||

    This guy is only getting sympathy because he accused the department of racism. If McVeigh had spoken of US racism against Iraqi's, leftist goons would be supporting him too.

  • دردشة عراقنا||

    Beautiful new romantic Iraqi chat Welcome
    http://www.iraaqna.com

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement