Seattle Sues Attorney For Requesting Police Dash-Cam Footage

Seattle has a brilliant solution to their many police problems — refuse to release police dash-cam footage, then sue [pdf] the person requesting said footage. 

Reports KOMOnews.com:

KOMO News sued the city of Seattle after public information requests for police dash-cam video were not fulfilled. The suit alleges violation of the public records law. 

But criminal defense attorney James Egan never expected the city would preemptively sue him just for asking for police dash cam video.

"Shocked. I am shocked," he said. "What the police department is saying is if you make a request for public documents, ultimately you will be sued."

The situation involves two cases Egan handled pro bono. He believed the videos in each case show officer misconduct. Egan wanted to know if those officers had other questionable arrests, so he asked for 36 additional dash-cam videos.

But the city refused, citing privacy laws. Egan appealed, and now the city is suing him.

"This is ridiculous. It would be comical if it weren't alarming," he said. 

Egan believes the city is retaliating for making these other videos public.

"I kind of expect for something like this that they really do have something to hide," said Egan. 

But Seattle City Attorney Pete Holmes, who filed the lawsuit, says the city is caught between two conflicting laws.

"There's a plain conflict in the laws between the Public Records Act (and) the Privacy Act. The city will pay dearly if it makes the wrong choice," said Holmes. 

When asked whether an attempt was made to cover up the 36 requested videos, Holmes said, "None whatsoever."

The most beautifully convenient part? Says ABAjournal.com, with emphasis added:

Although Seattle City Attorney Pete Holmes says the city will abide by the court’s decision, Egan told King 5 TV that the Washington privacy act prevents the footage from being made public until the final disposition of related litigation. That is, until the officers can no longer be sued for what they did in the video.

"The idea that you can't get a video until three years later is self protectionism,” Egan said, according to the station’s report. “They don't want the public to know the skeletons in their closets."

And there are many skeletons in the Seattle PD's closet, not just the recent news that a member of their force was arrested for buying crack, then mysteriously shot to death. There's also the fact that the Department of Justice recently finished a year-long investigation of the SPD, and they weren't happy with what they found. For example, the DOJ dubbed one in five uses of force by the police to be "unconstitutional." They also said that there was no official policy of discrimination, but minorities did suffer disproportionately and there was "potential" for discrimination in certain encounters.

In order to sooth the DOJ, the PD has made some changes which will supposedly enhance accountability, one is making sure squads report to a single sargent, instead of a rotating team of supervisors. Let's hope that supervisor is keen on policing his or her own people. Do you know what might help even more with that task? Dash-cams. Except they didn't do any good when one of the Seattle PD shot woodcarver John T. Williams to death in 2010. But if what footage does exist [video] had not been released, chances are prosecutors wouldn't have even debated bringing charges against officer Ian Birk at all. 

Reason.tv on "The Government's War on Cameras":

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  • Gojira||

    I'd say something snide, but I'm feeling pretty burned out today, so everyone just please imagine some cutting, snarky comment for yourselves and attribute it to me.

    kthxby

  • Sevo||

    Snarky, hell!
    Downright nasty, and yes, I'll give you credit.

  • Gojira||

    That's going above and beyond; thank you!

  • Seattle PD||

    The Pursuit of Justice is a demanding job, and we wont rest until we have all the guns to ourselves.

  • Hugh Akston||

    How is there a conflict between the FOIA/Public Records Act and the Privacy Act? In what twisted alternate dimension do public employees — particularly those with guns and police power — have any expectation of privacy while they do their jobs?

  • Public Employees with Guns||

    Because we are very, very good friends with the people who write the "privacy laws." So there!

  • ||

    because the WA legislature is full of simpering liberal ninnys and will do anything possible to write legislation that protects public servants (their intent is to protect THEMSELVES) from public scrutiny

    duh

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO

    thats why they passed the oneparty consent rule. because a legislator was caught redhanded with audio evidence. they made the law so that any audiotape acquired without twoparty consent even if recorded by noncops is INADMISSIBLE in court

  • Robert||

    It's not just Wash. This is the interpret'n that is routine from what I see by both federal and st. gov'ts. A Medicaid office in NY says people in the waiting room can't have recording devices because of the privacy rights of all who are there, with no exception made for someone who just wants to tape hir own proceedings. The privacy rules re the US census were applied to the employees of the bureau as well as those being, uh, censed.

  • ||

    yup. and people jump all over SPD here, when there is a good chance SPD (more specifically the city attorneys dealing with this shit) are stuck with trying to comply with laws, many of which often are somewhat in conflict with other laws.

    again, i *think* no officer should have a right to privacy as to dashcam video/audio

    but my opinion doesn't hold the force of law

  • ||

    What twisted alternate dimension? Illinois. Also Massachusetts and Maryland, though some pushback against it in those two. In all three, privacy wiretapping laws have been used for public servants arresting people and so forth, which simply shouldn't apply.

    But yeah, it's insane.

  • wareagle||

    Govt protects its own. Nanny State, Police State, makes no difference. It's all bullshit. Virtually any legislative creation that includes the word Act means something that subverts the public interest is about to happen.

  • ||

    because the WA legislature is full of simpering liberal ninnys and will do anything possible to write legislation that protects public servants (their intent is to protect THEMSELVES) from public scrutiny

    duh

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO

    thats why they passed the oneparty consent rule. because a legislator was caught redhanded with audio evidence. they made the law so that any audiotape acquired without twoparty consent even if recorded by noncops is INADMISSIBLE in court

  • wareagle||

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO
    --------------------------
    and yet, you leave out the right wing statist fucknuts, such as those running Florida. Statists are not exclusively creatures of the left. I give you Rick Santorum as Example A-H.

  • ||

    ime, they are both fucknuts. in MY state, they are nearly exclusively left wing, and i was referencing THIS law.

    also, ime having lived in both liberal run and conservative run states, the libs are FAR worse when it comes to this shit

  • El Commentariosa||

    let me guess: we need all the facts?
    hth

  • ||

    i've already given my analysis. hth

    oh, and ....


    because the WA legislature is full of simpering liberal ninnys and will do anything possible to write legislation that protects public servants (their intent is to protect THEMSELVES) from public scrutiny

    duh

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO

    thats why they passed the oneparty consent rule. because a legislator was caught redhanded with audio evidence. they made the law so that any audiotape acquired without twoparty consent even if recorded by noncops is INADMISSIBLE in court

  • ||

    People think of Seattle as this nice, crunchy city, but its police and government are corrupt as shit, especially the police. This action by the city attorney comes as no surprise.

  • Gojira||

    I believe the totality of the city's problems can somehow be attributed to your living there.

  • ||

    I fucking hope so! I mean, I did use to live in NYC, and look at what I did to that place. And Baltimore; I really did a number on Baltimore.

  • Gojira||

    Holy shit, it's like the Episiarch Hit Parade up in here. Please don't move to Dallas!

    I was stationed at Aberdeen Proving Grounds for awhile, and one city I never care to set foot in again is Baltimore.

  • Scruffy Nerfherder||

    Lived in Baltimore for five long years. What a shithole.

  • Nancy Pelosi's Dad||

    Glad you like what I did with the place!

  • Old Man With Candy||

    Schaeffer almost turned it into a great city. But that didn't last.

  • Mr Whipple||

    Oh, so that's why all of those John Waters movies are set in Baltimore. You inspired the Brendan Sexton III character, Matt, in Pecker, didn't you?

  • ||

    Absolutely.

  • ||

    the privacy act was passed by simpering liberal statist ninnys, epi.

    and yes, the cops are subject to it, but it was written to protect THEM, which is what fuckhead liberals do

    because the WA legislature is full of simpering liberal ninnys and will do anything possible to write legislation that protects public servants (their intent is to protect THEMSELVES) from public scrutiny

    duh

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO

    thats why they passed the oneparty consent rule. because a legislator was caught redhanded with audio evidence. they made the law so that any audiotape acquired without twoparty consent even if recorded by noncops is INADMISSIBLE in court

  • ||

    I am just glad the SPD are finally getting called on some of their shit. They've been out of control for years. I shudder to think how much nastiness has gone undetected over the years. And I'm not at all surprised the DOJ found evidence of "discrimination." They are not only violent and power abusing, but extremely racist too.

  • ||

    Well, I guess because material evidence is not available to the defense, they'll just have to dismiss the cases. Right?

  • Sevo||

    So if they toss the lawyers in jail, are they 'jail-house lawyers'?

  • ||

    Christ on a cracker.

    I still don't get why Egan was sued by the city...is it a pre-emptive lawsuit, just in case he maybe does violate a privacy law, down the road? Neither the blog post nor the KOMO 4 story make clear what bullshit rationale Holmes is using to sue Egan.

    I still get pissed when I think about the woodcarver story. That mofo fired five shots into an old Indian guy who was doing nothing more than whittling with a small knife.

  • Gojira||

    He might have been whittling a weapon of mass destruction. We have to be safe: do you want the "smoking gun" to be a mushroom cloud over NYC?!

  • ||

    "You were looking for a bomb in a package of Marlboros?!"

  • Security State Gojira||

    Anything is possible; the terrorists, Iran in particular, are scientific powerhouses with unlimited funds and hordes of millions willing to sacrifice themselves for the jihad.

    Islam is a death-cult, don't you know. Precisely as to why 99.8% of the muslim population of the world doesn't suicide bomb us into oblivion or overwhelm us with their numbers, is only due to the intervention of a very specific Christian God.

    I repeat: do you want the "smoking gun" to be a mushroom cloud over NYC?!

  • ||

    That's why we need the brave men and women in blue now more than ever.

    Like this patriotic officer (@2:50).

  • ||

    because the WA legislature is full of simpering liberal ninnys and will do anything possible to write legislation that protects public servants (their intent is to protect THEMSELVES) from public scrutiny

    duh

    that's what leftwing statist fucknuts DO

    thats why they passed the oneparty consent rule. because a legislator was caught redhanded with audio evidence. they made the law so that any audiotape acquired without twoparty consent even if recorded by noncops is INADMISSIBLE in court

  • ||

    NYC is an awesome place to get bombed, as I found out last year for my 40th.

  • Gojira||

    I was legitimately afraid of the repercussions of ordering an Irish car bomb at the airport bar last year.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    So offensively-named, so delicious. I had one for my 21st birthday and never since.

  • Gojira||

    Only offensive if you're a filthy mick. And if so, you're opinion doesn't matter anyway, so problem solved.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    An eighth of me is offended! And possibly a 16th, for the Irish part of the Scots-Irish, as well.

  • ||

    If I ever invent a drink, I'm going to name it Islamic Jihad.

  • Your Old Math Teacher||

    3/16

    You are 18.75% offended.

  • El Commentariosa||

    My math teacher looked line Lenin

    /cool story bro

  • Public School Math Teacher||

    3/16

    You are 50% offended.

  • Coeus||

    And possibly a 16th, for the Irish part of the Scots-Irish, as well.

    I used to think the same thing. Turns out, Scots-Irish is a term used by previous Irish immigrants to the US to distinguish themselves from the "common riff-raff" coming in later. No scots involved.

  • Rob||

    Actually, it's the other way around. They were Scots who immigrated to Ireland, and then on to America. So they are not Irish at all, but Scots who immigrated to America by way of Ireland.

  • wareagle||

    and yet no one gets upset about kamikazes.

  • AlmightyJb||

    I love kamikazes. Not too sweet, not too harsh. I seldom do shots but when I do, I do kamikazes.

  • db||

    Kamikazes did me in on my bar tour. Ended up crawling under my roommate's car and had to be dragged out.

  • ||

    Wooohoo! I get to be offended by kamikazes. Then again,I wanted to attend the "Pearl Harbor" premiere wearing hachimaki (you know, the headbands). God I hate that movie, but I own it because my mother hates it more, and when she overstays her welcome, I put it on the DVD player and she knows it's time to go home...

  • ||

    Why is my username randomly changing? Squirrels?

  • Sevo||

    What happens if you order a "shot"?

  • Gojira||

    Well I'm sure as hell not going to find out at SEATAC; the footage showing them kicking my ass might never get released to the public.

  • ||

    SPD doesn't patrol SeaTac, moron. It's like you're actively trying to be a dope.

  • Gojira||

    Understood, but I've slowly come to the opinion that I don't want to press my luck in any part of your *cough*wonderful*cough* state.

  • AlmightyJb||

    Vacationed Washington State a few years ago. It is a beautiful state. I would move there if not for the rain. I liked Seattle although spent most of the trip near Port Angeles. No run ins with SPD so can't speak to that.

  • El Commentariosa||

    Is that the same as a suicide bomber?

  • Number 2||

    It is a declaratory judgment action. Seattle is asking the court to decide whether they have to comply with Egan's request. It is less extreme than the story makes it sound.

  • ||

    wait, the MEDIA , the alleged fawnalloverthecopsandalwaystaketheirsideandtrytoportraythemasheroesperreasonbigots MEDIA is overstating a case to try to paint the cops in a negative light?

    that's UNpossible!!!

  • ||

    Well, the underlying trend is for the media to umcritically support the police so this data point should be ignored. Otherwise it skews a useful trend line

  • Greg||

    In addition to this being a declaratory judgment, the journalist involved is a lawyer who mentioned in his appeal that he would seek the maximum statutory penalties available if his request wasn't complied with.

  • strat||

    When all you have's a warrant, all the world's a perp.

  • sarcasmic||

    dunphy?

  • Mike E||

    You beat me, damn you.

  • ||

    as i said... i 100% support people filming cops AND cops filming people

    i can't comment on the veracity of the WA privacy act claim, because it's an area of law i know nothing about

    i don't think, as a matter of policy, that dashcam video - iow a film/audio of officer's interactions with the public on a traffic stop should EVER be a matter of privacy vis a vis the officer

    period. full stop

    i could see in some circ's where it might be a legitimate privacy issue for the motorist, for example, a traffic stop where the officer sees syringes, asks the motorist, and the motorist says they have diabetes. that's private, and shouldn't be released so others know about her private medical issues

    etc.

    but as far as the officers, they have NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY as to dashboard traffic stops video/audio

    period. imo

    but again, i know fuck-all about the WA privacy statute the SPD is referencing, so it may in fact be that they are technically correct , although it SOUNDS asinine

  • Mike E||

    I was referring to the picture, not the story. Also, I am one of your fans, not one of your haters. We need more police officers like you.

  • ||

    yup. the world would definitely be a better place with more "me's" in it.

    :)

    thanks, man

  • Mike E||

    Alt Text: "Reason's favorite member of law enforcement, Officer Dunphy"

  • El Commentariosa||

    WHAT WOULD DUNPHY DO?

  • ||

    i;d love to have audio/videotaping of my traffic stops (i rarely DO traffic stops, but still...)

    any good cop should be way more worried about false complaints, which said tape can help exonerate them of , than the tape revealing bad actions on their part

    my agency is so cash strapped, they lol'd when some of us requested such equipment

    WA two party consent law is problematic. some think it forbids us from recording traffic stop conversations (although case law says that citizens CAN record their conversations with us), since it requires two party consent for PRIVATE conversation

    i would argue an officer's conversation with a motorist on a traffic stop, is NOT a private conversation...

    regardless, i'd love to have that technology

  • ||

    In happier WA state news, Gov. Gregoire is introducing gay marriage legislation. I wonder if that means they will open up the civil union option to straights now too.

  • ||

    west point grad arrested for filming police and defending woman being arrested

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNVZDpGCKks

  • ||

    officer takes own life after being caught not turning in drugs (presumably using them himself)....

    http://www.komonews.com/news/l.....51743.html

    note contra the reason-meme that cops never rat out their own, the entire investigation stemmed from coworkers of this officer noticing unusual behavior, notifying their superiors, and them following up, setting a sting (by officers from another agency) and catching him red handed.

    happens ALL the time, whether it is reported in media or not - cops turning in bad cops, or as in this case, even with just a suspicion they were bad.

    props to SPD for doing their job, and while the officer's (apparent) suicide is a tragedy, SPD did the right thing...

    SEATTLE -- A veteran Seattle police officer who took his own life amid allegations of stealing drugs had failed an integrity test, Seattle Police Chief John Diaz said.

    Police confirmed Rick F. Nelson died just hours after being taken to Harborview Medical Center with a self-inflicted gunshot wound on Thursday afternoon.

    Nelson, 50, of Issaquah was arrested early Thursday morning, booked into jail, then released on his own cognizance.

    Approximately six hours after he was released, Nelson was found shot on the John Wayne Trail near Rattlesnake Lake. He was taken to Harborview Medical Center where he was later pronounced dead.

    Seattle Police Chief John Diaz said the department launched a criminal investigation last summer after fellow officers raised concerns about Nelson showing an "inordinate interest" in drug evidence that were brought in.

    "It was a hunch," said Diaz, adding such investigations, which are referred to as "integrity tests" within the department, are routine when concerns are raised.

    As a part of the investigation, officials carried out an undercover sting on Wednesday night when an officer from an outside agency handed Nelson a bag filled with cocaine. Department officials were surveilling Nelson to see whether he would follow proper protocol for handling drug evidence.

    "Unfortunately, he did not do that," said Assistant Police Chief Nick Metz. When officers arrested Nelson several hours later, they found some of the drugs on his person.

    Metz, calling the event "a tremendous tragedy," said Nelson had been a "friend to many" in the department.

    "It's been a heartbreaking 24 hours, to say the least," he said.

    An officer who previously worked as Nelson's patrol partner said the news came as a surprise.

    "(For) those of us who knew him and even those of who didn't, it's just a shock, a tragic ending that nobody would have expected," said Brian Guenther. "Just a very somber and sober day."

    Guenther, who said he'd known Nelson for 20 years, said he did not know whether Nelson struggled with a drug problem.

    "All I know is he was well-liked by everybody at the precinct, and just a good-hearted person," he said.

    Nelson, a 21-year veteran of the force, worked out of the South Precinct for his entire career. He is survived by his wife and two teenage children.

  • ||

    note ALSO, that when officers PASS such integrity tests, as they routinely do (since they are usually done with very scant suspicion), the media will never be made aware, amongst other reasons, because of personnel privacy issue.

    you won't hear about the X officers suspected of misconduct, tested, and who pass. you will only, as in this case, hear about the bad one that was caught

    my former agency did such a test by (unbelievably) leaving a 20 dollar bill IN THE MEN's locker room, on a bench to see if anybody would take it

    they set up a video camera in the locker

    again, in a men's locker room. officer's privacy never being a concern for cop-o-crats.

    later, they were asked if they would have done same in a woman's locker room. the answer: of course not

    :l

  • Abdul||

    What the hell is an "integrity test?" Is it like those purity tests they used to pass around in high school?

  • ||

    it was the sting operation

    they had a VERY weak allegation. he was "expressing" undue interest in drugs

    so, they went PROactive, set up a sting, and caught the guy red handed, giving them enough to arrest

    that is a strongly proactive and anti-corruption methodology

    and of course will be ignored by the reasonoids.

  • o∞||

    "happens ALL the time, "

    Citation please.

  • ||

    again, there is no citation, because as i keep explaining to you - most examples of misconduct are quietly investigated with no media exposure, and the cop is either fired (if found guilty) or not

    paul schene is ANOTHER example in the seattle area, of a cop turned in by his coworker when evidence of misconduct was discovered by another cop

    yet again, you fall prey to the media- if you don't read about it in reason, it didn't happen

    my agency has fired three cops in the last two years who were investigated because of complaints by other cops. NONE of those, just in my agency, can be CITED, because there was no newspaper report, as is USUALLY the case in police misconduct disciplining and firing

    that's the logical fallacy, you keep falling prey to. the idea that if you don't read about it , it doesn't happen

  • o∞||

    I'm not gonna get a citation that shows police always turn in their own like you claim they do, am I dunphy?

  • o∞||

    "again, there is no citation"

    So, you can't support a claim you made.

    Just admit that. I don't really care why you can't, or what your speculation is on why you can't.

    You made a claim, support it or admit you can't.

  • ||

    again,just because it doesn't happen in the media doesn't mean it doesn't happen

    i at a ribeye for breakfast. i can't report that with a cite either

    again, if you CARE, go to any local decent sized PD and ask for public records as to officers disciplined/fired and sustained complaints

    it's public record (usually)

  • Pedantic Savant||

    We're not doing your homework.

  • ||

    it's not MY homework

    you can continue to be ignorant, or you can educate yourself. it means fuck all to me

    but i am not going to do anything but state the facts, whether or not they are on the internetz

  • o∞||

    "most examples of misconduct are quietly investigated with no media exposure"

    citation please.

    or are you going to claim they don;t keep records of investigations?

  • ||

    again, how do i cite something that is not on the internetz/news media

    that's your fallacy. if it wasn't r eported by the mainstream media, it didn't happen

    i personally know several officers who were fired, who were investigated because OTHER officers drew attention to their misconduct.

    they were fired w/o fanfare and without media notice.

    that's how the real world works

    you are just a simpering dupe of the media.

    if you don't see it in the media, it didn't happen

  • o∞||

    "that's your fallacy. "

    1) name the fallacy
    2) you can't because "asking a person to support a claim they made is not in any form a fallacy"

    Just admit you shot off your mouth about something that isn't true.

    And I'm still waiting on that apology.

  • o∞||

    "you are just a simpering dupe of the media."

    Because I asked you to support something?

    And you were asked about record keeping on these down-low investigation you claim occur.

    Do they exist or not?

  • ||

    they exist as dept. internal documents. again, feel free to research this . go to a local decent sized PD

    that's the only way you will get ACTUAL data on this.

  • robc||

    FOIA them.

  • o∞||

    "yet again, you fall prey to the media- if you don't read about it in reason, it didn't happen"

    No, and you show a tremendous level of disrespect. How dare you accuse me of anything other than asking you to support a claim you made.

    I made no claims. HOw dare you accuse me of falling prey to anything.

    I asked for a citation, and you turned it around on me, knowing nothing about my position on this.

    Apologize.

  • ||

    you can't CITE something that is not on the internet. feel free to go down to any local agency and ask for info on SUSTAINED IIU complaints. in most jurisdictions, sustained complaints are public record

    the VAST majority do not make the media

    i have friends who were fired for misconduct after being turned in by fellow officers. they never made the media

    heck, several in my agency.

    extrapolate nationwide. we are talking hundreds of such cases a year, if not thousands.

    again, just because it's not on the news, doesn't mean it didn't happen

    i can't cite the DOZENS of times cops confront people armed wiht knives who DON'T shoot them

    i've done it many times.

    what they do report is when the cops shoot the guy

    that's sexy

    don't assume therefore, that if the guy has a knife, he gets shot. the VAST majority of the time, he doesn't

    again, this is the annoying fallacy. reasonoids should be smart enough to realize that what is reported in the media is NOT the whole story.,

  • o∞||

    "feel free to go down to any local agency and ask for info on SUSTAINED IIU complaints. "

    I'm not the one claiming something, so it's not my job.

    By the way, still waiting on that apology.

  • ||

    it's not anybody's job

    the info is out there.

    it's the truth

    whether or not you choose to believe it, believe it's possible absent evidence, etc. is your call

    i will not lie, nor will i refrain from the truth, merely because it's not on the internetz

  • AdamJ||

    You sound like an idiot.

  • Rob||

    Dunphy, you ate a ribeye for breakfast? WTF.

  • Untermensch||

    Actually, odd infinitum, you are the one making the implication that dunphy is lying and demanding that he prove he is not. He's told you why he cannot link to what you want but told you how to get it. He's met the bar for citation, actually, just as someone writing an article has the responsibility to tell you what his source was, regardless of whether you, personally, can access it. You've made it clear you think he's making stuff up, but that makes it your turn to substantiate your claim. Your requests are pretty ridiculous given dunphy’s very clear answers about why he can’t give you a link. Sometimes experts (and here he is showing much more expertise in the matter than you are) actually do know what they’re talking about. Your request is on par with asking a physicist to cite studies that show gravity actually exists and then getting mad when he tells you not to be stupid about things.

  • wareagle||

    where do you think a citation for something like would come from? Issues like Dunphy points to involve personnel, which is guarded like a state secret by most govt jurisdictions.

  • o∞||

    "where do you think a citation for something like would come from?"

    Not my problem, if you can't support your argument, don't make it.

  • ||

    lemme give ONE example

    guy was turned in by a fellow officer for working off duty security details but repeatedly showing up late, and claiming he was there via work logs.

    report was investigated by IIU and they surveilled his HOUSE for two weeks and gathered evidence it was a substantial PATTERN of abuse and promptly fired him

    end of story

    it never made the media (of course), but it's quite typical. turned in by another cop, investigated (and they surveilled for two weeks to eliminate the possibility of his claiming it only rarely happened - iow they investigated to get enough to fire the guy solidly with no chance he'd win arbitration vs. just AN incident, where at most they probably could have gotten a suspension)

    that's how the real world works

  • Pedantic Savant||

    Anecdotes are not Datum.

  • dumphy||

    WHEN I DON'T HAVE STATISTICS THAT SUPPORT ME THEY ARE!

  • o∞||

    "lemme give ONE example"

    No thanks, I didn't read it because I asked for a citation that supports your claim, and that's not one.

  • o∞||

    And I'm still waiting on that apology.

  • o∞||

    And you were asked about record keeping on these down-low investigation you claim occur.

    Do they exist or not?

  • ||

    in most agencies they do. they are not on the internetz

    hth

  • Pedantic Savant||

    so, get your ass in gear and pull up the data to back up your claims.

  • ||

    "get your ass in gear and pull up the data to back up your claims."

    Expecting a cop to do legwork...

  • ||

    how do you "pull up" shit that is sitting in offices of police stations (assuming they don't destroy personnel records after officers are fired, etc.)

    again, the truth is the truth, independent of whether its on the intert00bs

    i ate a ribeye,. it's not in the intert00bs. except for my claim

  • ||

    "they are not on the internetz"

    So what? What was all that MLA crap I learned about in college, or APA crap, or just basic citing sources in high school?

    You made a claim. You cannot support it with any facts whatsoever. When challenged on that fact, you first attacked me, then claimed it is impossible to cite anything not on the internet.

    So, after all that, you cannot support your claim factually.

    Period. Game over.

  • ||

    rubbish. there is no "game". i realize it;'s a game for people who like to argue for the sake of arguing and who are offended when there false beliefs are challenged

    these are simply facts.

    most cop firings don't make the news. agencies, including my own, routinely investigate their officers, officers routinely turn in other officers, and officers are fired all the fucking time without a media article

    i am not going to backpedal on the truth, because those are not on the internetz

    the data is out there, in almost all police agencies, since they are public record

    i don't care what you CHOOSE to believe. that doesn't affect me.

    the truth has dignity. i will state it, and whether or not you choose to consider it is your decision

    no game whatsoever

  • o∞||

    "these are simply facts."

    Then demonstrate that.

    You can't.

    Game over.

  • ||

    no game

    these are simply facts.

    most cop firings don't make the news. agencies, including my own, routinely investigate their officers, officers routinely turn in other officers, and officers are fired all the fucking time without a media article

    i am not going to backpedal on the truth, because those are not on the internetz

    the data is out there, in almost all police agencies, since they are public record

    i don't care what you CHOOSE to believe. that doesn't affect me.

    the truth has dignity. i will state it, and whether or not you choose to consider it is your decision

    no game whatsoever

  • AdamJ||

    You seriously sound ridiculous with your argument. People offer anecdotes on this thread all the time. Just because there is no citation, doesn't mean he's lying. You don't have to believe his statements, but asking him to prove something that can't be proven on a comment thread doesn't exactly prove your point either. I can't provide a citation that I drive a hatchback, but I do. People on Yelp can't provide a citation that the food sucks at the the restaurant they went to last night, but that doesn't mean the information they are sharing is worthless.

  • ||

    "You seriously sound ridiculous with your argument. "

    Actually, asshole you sound retarded.

    He continuously denounces anecdotal evidence as "reason anti cop-memes", so when he shoots off his dicksucker about something that sure as fuck needs a citation, you can bet he'll get called on it.

    Learn the landscape and shut the fuck \up while you learn something.

  • ||

    Damn, now that is GAME OVER!

    btw, you will just have to choose whether to believe me when I tell you that Natasha was a six foot blonde, about 125-130, who spoke no english other than "the great soviet soicalist october revolution" and that she loved listening to me lambaste lenin, in russian, while we strolled up and down Nevsky prospect as I can provide no link.

  • MNG||

    the data is out there

    But you're just too lazy to get it.

  • Koan||

    You know, I cannot believe I'm going to do this, as I am not a big dunphy fan, but you're a real prick. That all claims must be backed up by the "citations" that you seem to require, APA style, is retarded. I think you know this, but you're a citation troll . . . some facts simply do not have a ready, Internet-based citation available to satisfy your need for exactitude, as dunphy clearly laid out for you multiple times above. You either trust it or you don't. Get over it . . . asshole.

  • PR||

    end of story

    no arrest, no prosecution, I believe it.

  • MNG||

    note contra the reason-meme that cops never rat out their own, the entire investigation stemmed from coworkers of this officer noticing unusual behavior, notifying their superiors, and them following up, setting a sting (by officers from another agency) and catching him red handed.

    happens ALL the time

    Don't you love how he first beats the shit out of the straw man (idiotic "reason-meme" line) then asserts something that the evidence clearly doesn't show.

    WHy do you get to generalize one situation, yet you cry like a bitch every time you think the "reasonoids" are doing it?

    Because you're a disingenuous hypocrite.

    And no you lying fuck, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.

    THAT'S WHY IT'S NEWS ASSHOLE

  • ||

    false. it made the news, because it's sexy case involving drugs, an arrest, and ultimately a suicide

    most cases of police misconduct that result in discipline or firing NEVER MAKE THE NEWS

    my agency fired several over the years, and a few in the last two years due to their being turned in for misconduct, or suspected misconduct by fellow officers. in every case, the misconduct was investigated, and in the cases where it was found to be justified, they were disciplined/fired

    again, these cases don't MAKE the media and you fall prey to the ridiculous assumption that if it isn't reported in reason and/or the mass media you choose to read, that it didn't happen

    SCORES of officers are fired every year, just in king and pierce county. a TINY percentage of those cases make the news

  • MNG||

    "false. it made the news, because it's sexy case involving drugs, an arrest, and ultimately a suicide"

    Except that happens every day all day long and isn't news.

    Add a cop, and it's all over.

    Your cop bias is showing.

  • ||

    there is no cop bias. there is recognition that there are tons of cases that involve officers turning in other officers, the agencies investigation AND if the suspicions are confirmed - the cop gets disciplined/fired

    the overwhelming majority do not make the papers

    try figuring out how many cops per year are fired (and realize that many resign prior to same thus skewing the stats) for misonduct

    correlate with how many are reported in the media

    like i said, i know personally many examples of this happening that don't make the media

    you fall prey to the lie that cops all protect their own (ridiculous) or don't vigorously investigate their own, based on SELECT incidents not representative of the whole

  • MNG||

    there is recognition that there are tons of cases that involve officers turning in other officers, the agencies investigation AND if the suspicions are confirmed - the cop gets disciplined/fired"

    Why do you think insisting something over and over with no evidence whatsoever to support you makes anyone think you're right?

    You have cop bias.

  • ||

    no, i don't

    again, these are simply facts

    just because they are not on the internet doesn't mean they aren't factual

    i had ribeye steak for breakfast.

    it is not on the internet

    yet, it's a fact

    again, REASONable people will apply the smell test and realize it's probably true

    those who wish to, can go to a local PD and ferret out the info themselves.

    iow, you either believe me, or you question me.

    i have no control over that.

    but it's inarguably true, and the truth has a dignity all its own

  • MNG||

    "again, these are simply facts

    just because they are not on the internet doesn't mean they aren't factual"

    You can't produce them, that's what matters.

    You cop bias is in full bloom.

  • ||

    there is no bias

    facts have no bias

    cops are fired often without a news report

    fact

    agencies routinely investigate their own and fire them when guilty without a news report

    fact

    officers routinely turn in others for suspected misconduct

    fact

  • MNG||

    facts have no bias

    And you have no facts.

    Your bias is showing.

  • ||

    these are simply facts.

    most cop firings don't make the news. agencies, including my own, routinely investigate their officers, officers routinely turn in other officers, and officers are fired all the fucking time without a media article

    i am not going to backpedal on the truth, because those are not on the internetz

    the data is out there, in almost all police agencies, since they are public record

    i don't care what you CHOOSE to believe. that doesn't affect me.

    the truth has dignity. i will state it, and whether or not you choose to consider it is your decision

    no game whatsoever

  • MNG||

    no game whatsoever

    You've confused the people you're trolling.

  • AdamJ||

    You also have no evidence against his claim, so this argument is ridiculous. Stop wasting everybody's time.

  • MNG||

    You also have no evidence against his claim, so this argument is ridiculous.

    Actually, no counterclaim was made, so no evidence is required.

    Stop proving you're a moron.

  • AdamJ is dunphy||

    Listen cunt, if you're gonna sockpuppet, do yourself a favor, let someone else read it before you post it.

    Your stupidity infects everything you touch, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

  • AdamJ is dunphy sockpuppeting||

    Listen cunt, if you're gonna sockpuppet, do yourself a favor, let someone else read it before you post it.

    Your stupidity infects everything you touch, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

  • AdamJ is dunphy||

    Listen cunt, if you're gonna sockpuppet, do yourself a favor, let someone else read it before you post it.

    Your stupidity infects everything you touch, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

  • AdamJ is dunphy||

    Listen cunt, if you're gonna sockpuppet, do yourself a favor, let someone else read it before you post it.

    Your stupidity infects everything you touch, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

  • Pedantic Savant||

    "tons of cases" is not a figure

  • ||

    If you're claiming that there are far more corrupt cops out there than the media reports then I'll have to agree with you there, dunphy.

  • ||

    then we agree. realizing that in many cases, the "corruptioN' isn't people beating the shit out of people for no reason, etc

    it's people being lazy, not doing their job, etc. which can and will get them fired.

  • o∞||

    "it's people being lazy"

    you mean like making claims that are not factual and that they can't cite?

    Yeah, that's worse than lazy...

  • ||

    again they are facts

    they are not citable

    they are researchable, if you choose to

    i don't care what you believe

    i believe in truth, even when it upsets my preconceived false notions

    if you don't that's yer problem

  • o∞||

    "dunphy|1.5.12 @ 9:22PM|#|show direct|ignore
    again they are facts

    they are not citable

    they are researchable, if you choose to"

    If they're researchable, they're citable.

    At this point, you've descended into the "do your own homework" meme that all beaten trolls resort to.

    You've presented nothing factual.

  • ||

    these are simply facts.

    most cop firings don't make the news. agencies, including my own, routinely investigate their officers, officers routinely turn in other officers, and officers are fired all the fucking time without a media article

    i am not going to backpedal on the truth, because those are not on the internetz

    the data is out there, in almost all police agencies, since they are public record

    i don't care what you CHOOSE to believe. that doesn't affect me.

    the truth has dignity. i will state it, and whether or not you choose to consider it is your decision

    no game whatsoever

  • o∞||

    So, when forced to admit you have no facts, and can't produce any, you resort to cut-and-paste-trolling

  • ||

    This is clearly not dunphy, he's stupid to the point of retardation, but this is clearly some spoofer trying to make him look bad.

    Which frankly, isn't possible but I digress.

  • Coeus||

    This is clearly not dunphy, he's stupid to the point of retardation, but this is clearly some spoofer trying to make him look bad.

    Then they've studied well. I've had him get like this in arguments over tasers before. Whenever he's clearly wrong, he just doubles down (and dunphy, if you want to go there, then ask for a cite, I even have a particular one in mind. I warn you, it won't be pretty.)

  • shamalamadingdong||

    citation, please, dunphy can never be beaten too much.

    Having said my snark, I have to agree with Dunphy here. The "citation please" crap gets old. Dunphy is generalizing about the police based on his personal experience. We all do that, and there is nothing wrong with it. Usually, such generalizations are accurate.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Usually, such generalizations are accurate.

    I agree. But the problem here is that Dunphy will often dismiss generalizations, anecdotal evidence, or personal experience other commentors use to support their arguments. It's arguing in bad faith.

  • Untermensch||

    o∞, your logic here is the same as the young-earth creationist (YEC) who badgers a real-life scientist for not providing proof, proof dammit!, that the earth is more than 6000 and change years old and says that it's up to the scientist to prove to the YEC’s satisfaction that it really is older than that.

    At some point it isn't worth arguing with someone like that because their mind is made up and nothing will change it and they will get mad with answers like “read a basic geology textbook and then come back and talk to me.” Dunphy has cited his sources, but you don't want to do the work to get them and verify them. He has made a claim and told you where the evidence is. His responsibility has ended. He has no responsibility to chew it up and put it in your mouth for you.

  • Sevo||

    Why not here?
    Gov Moonbeam offers cuts in general welfare, medical welfare and (some) ed, since there's no way to balance the CA budget and there's no way he's going to anger his union constituency:
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/......DTL&tsp=1
    Yep, that's out Jerry!

  • ||

    Video (@4:43) military guy is wearing a D'Aconia Copper tee...Awesome dude.

  • ||

    Oh shit, @ dunphy 8:26

  • ||

    hellz ya!!!

  • o∞||

    "Cop makes up bullshit claim, cannot support it, attacks citizen when confronted by his dishonesty"

    I can see why you thought you'd get away with your normal behavior tonight cop, but I'm not allowing it.

  • ||

    yawn. troll-o-meter: .01

  • o∞||

    These are facts.

    i don't care what you believe

  • ||

    these are simply facts.

    most cop firings don't make the news. agencies, including my own, routinely investigate their officers, officers routinely turn in other officers, and officers are fired all the fucking time without a media article

    i am not going to backpedal on the truth, because those are not on the internetz

    the data is out there, in almost all police agencies, since they are public record

    i don't care what you CHOOSE to believe. that doesn't affect me.

    the truth has dignity. i will state it, and whether or not you choose to consider it is your decision

    no game whatsoever

  • o∞||

    "Cop makes up bullshit claim, cannot support it, attacks citizen when confronted by his dishonesty"

    I can see why you thought you'd get away with your normal behavior tonight cop, but I'm not allowing it.

  • o∞||

    By the way, you've resorted to this now?

    Cut and paste trolling?

    You're really that upset?

  • ||

    if you think i am upset, you clearly don't understand me

    this is a frigging blog. i don't know you. why would i get UPSET because you are wrong?

    anybody who takes themselves that seriously needs to get a fucking life

  • o∞||

    I asked you for citations.

    You spent a ton of time dodging my request, even going so far as to claim that citations must be on the internet. I think, I can't wrap my mind around how nonsensical that is.

    However, here's the point. You provided no evidence. Your opinion on the veracity of your own claim is dubious at best.

    And then you personally attacked me. Repeatedly. Because you can't cite your own claim.

    Now here at the end, when you're obviously mad, and realize you've once again stepped on your dick, you decide to grace us with an admission.

    "anybody who takes themselves that seriously needs to get a fucking life"

    Amen dude. You spent what, two hours ducking something that any reasonable person would have just said "no citations man, not even sure if I'm right, just my experience" and been let off the hook for.

    Instead you went all "I'm a cop, what I say goes, I'm right" and demonstrated that yes, without any question, someone who takes themselves as seriously as you do definitely needs to "get a fucking life."

    You lose.

    I'm going to leave now knowing you can't let that one go, and will require the last word that I'll never read and won't care about.

  • o∞||

    By the way, this woul;d have ended if you had any evidence to present that supported your claim.

    Instead you attacked me, perosnally, for asking you to support your claim the way anyone else would have to.

    Think about that, when asked for EVIDENCE, you attacked ME PERSONALLY.

    What kind of antisocial person does that?

  • ||

    i believe in truth and justice. heck, the american way, too

    i would hope you do too

    what i am saying is the truth. it's that simple

    there are only rarely reflections of it in the media, just like stuff that happens in your daily life usually doesn't make the newz

    if somebody worked for boeing and had insight into its internal workings, that would interest me

    i would realize they usually wouldnt have internet citations as to what happens at boeing internally

  • ||

    And you should realize we don't care about your opinions and want facts that can be checked.

    Stop telling me what to do in your typical cop-fashion, thanks.

  • MNG||

    I'm going to bookmark this thread for the next time dunphy is asked about anything evidentiary

  • ||

    lots of stuff happens, in police agencies, in private companies, and in our lives that is not on the intertoobz.

    we all realize that.

    i am simply explaining how it works

    consider how many cops are fired for misconduct, and what a tiny percentage makes the media

  • Pedantic Savant||

    consider how many cops are fired for misconduct, and what a tiny percentage makes the media

    GIVE US THE NUMBERS IDIOT

  • ||

    who WOULD keep stats on that?

    are agencies required to report to the DOJ on this?

    not to my knowledge.

    i can only speak to the truth.

  • Pedantic Savant||

    If there are no stats than how do you know what the percentage is?

  • ||

    facts are facts man, and if a guy works at boingboing you should believe him

    or something...

  • ||

    This is clearly not dunphy, he's stupid to the point of retardation, but this is clearly some spoofer trying to make him look bad.

    Which frankly, isn't possible but I digress.

  • El Commentariosa||

    I dunno. Maybe if he would have added that his wife, Morgan Fairchild, served him the ribeye steak for breakfast I would believe him.

  • ||

    nice troll attempt, but the above posts in re police misconduct ARE me, and i stand by them 100%

    most police misconduct investigations, happen quietly, and cops are often fired quietly with no media involvement

    cops are commonly turned in by fellow officers, and IIU's routinely try very hard to catch bad cops and when they do, they are ruthless

    those are facts. i stand by them

  • ||

    "those are facts"

    Support them with evidence officer, preferably in the form of verifiable citations.

  • Pedantic Savant||

    fact: my spedomoter is usually off by a hair and I have no idea how fast I'm going, so If I was speeding I'm sorry. Please take my word on it because I would never lie, I would only speak the truth. now tear up that ticket.

  • ||

    troll-o-meter: .01

  • ||

    "those are facts"

    Support them with evidence officer, preferably in the form of verifiable citations.

  • God||

    Epi has spoken.

  • Hugh Akston||

    I was gonna comment on this thread, but someone dunphy'd all over it.

  • ||

    One of the larger skeletons in the Seattle PD's closet is that abomination that is/was The Killing.

  • ||

    one of the reasons i support RKBA is that i see numerous incidents of noncops using their firearms responsibly, and in the VAST majority of instances - never firing a shot

    i've never seen a RELIABLE stat on this, since there is no easy way to track it

    heck, i've been to at least two dozen incidents where citizens with guns have stopped crime/apprehended bad guys that way

    NONE made the paper, and they are in no way citable

    but i KNOW they happen, and it's part of the reason why i support RKBA as policy

  • ||

    And you should realize we don't care about your opinions and want facts that can be checked.

    Stop telling me what to do in your typical cop-fashion, thanks.

  • yogi||

    And you should realize we don't care about your opinions...

    Speak for yourself.

  • everyone who knows dunphy||

    Pedantic Savant|1.5.12 @ 10:24PM|#|show direct|ignore

    everyone who knows dunphy|1.5.12 @ 10:26PM|#|show direct|ignore

    Coeus|1.5.12 @ 10:30PM|#|show direct|ignore

    o∞|1.5.12 @ 10:20PM|#|show direct|ignore

    "Speak for yourself."

    Learn what we means cunt.

  • yogi||

    Linky fails.

  • everyone who knows dunphy||

    Well, something fails...

  • MNG||

    They weren't links fuckwit.

    How fucking stupid and lazy are you?

  • yogi||

    When I wrote "Speak for yourself", I meant to point out Episiarch's collectivist "we". It had nothing to do dunphy. That's why I made the "we" bold in the snippet I posted.

  • everybody who knows dunphy||

    "When I wrote "Speak for yourself", I meant to point out Episiarch's collectivist "we""

    Hence the examples making the we appropriate.

    How about you speak for YOURSELF cunt, and when at least 4 people agree, let them use "we"?

    K?

  • yogi||

    I going to have to hook a turbine power generator to whoever you are, Episiarch, MNG, and Lexington Steel and make some money while you fuck.

  • yogi||

    Even a stupid cunt like me knows that only 2 people are needed to use "we" to express an agreed upon thought or action. It's now 4?

  • ||

    This sounds like the spoofer.

    Goddamn, get a fucking hobby, spoofer.

  • ...||

    "Goddamn, get a fucking hobby, spoofer."

    You mean like trolling threads in the middle of the night telling people what to do?

  • the audience||

    tulpa gets owned

  • ||

    You mean like trolling threads in the middle of the night commenting on everyone that calls you out?

  • Pedantic Savant||

    Yeah, you could be right. You could be wrong.
    You know this happens. Who cares, because you have no way to provide evidence on what percentage of the time this happens.
    And just because you can't find evidence doesn't make it exempt from needing evidence. If you make a claim that has no evidence, then you can't make the claim.

  • everyone who knows dunphy||

    and i KNOW the world would be a better place if a crackhead shot you and raped your family in front of you before you died

    which is why i support a crackhead shooting you and raping your family in front of you

  • ||

    Uh, no. Totally inappropriate.

  • Coeus||

    When you call bullshit on other people's anecdotes without proof, you lose the benefit of the doubt with you own anecedotes. This is a place where no one gives a fuck if you're a cop, and you have to actually earn respect.

    hth

  • ||

    Really, really good work setting that logic trap for dunphy. A bit unfair, perhaps, because of the privacy laws, but only a bit.

    Hoisted on his own petard, and all.

    Bravo.

  • Pedantic Savant||

  • Almanian||

    As usual, H&R brings out the best in everyone.

    Also - I LOVE when Lucy comes out to play with the gang! Thanks, Lucy!

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    Thank YOU! It's what I'm here for. Also, it's easier -- if not more rewarding -- than actually writing other things I'm supposed to and turning them in on time!

  • ||

    As usual, H&R brings out the best in everyone.

    And the best in regulars getting spoofed by a psychotic troll. How about some registration, mods?

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    I don't know I am not more skeptical of posters on here, but whatever. My youthful optimism is all I have, God damn it.

  • ||

    Lucy is good people.

  • rather||

    "As usual, H&R brings out the best in everyone"

    Mommy Lucy & daddy Almanian, Is it safe to come out and play yet?

  • Coeus||

    Cops bust down vets door wearing ninja outfits for a marijuana violation and get what's coming to them:

    http://www.policeone.com/drug-.....-shootout/

    I can only hope that this keeps happening. Maybe they'll rethink their tactics. And no sympathy for the cop who died. Here's why:


    Joining the narcotics strike force had long been Francom's dream job, according to his father-in-law, John Frisby. Francom, 30, had worked as a part-time patrol officer and took security jobs on the side until he was finally chosen for the select group.

    It was a "big honor," Frisby said when reached by telephone at his home in Henderson, Nev. "He was good at it."

    Anyone who's dream job is kicking in doors with a team of thugs carrying rifles to cage or kill someone for putting an unauthorized molecule in their body is best eliminated from the gene pool.

  • WTF||

    The comments are disgusting. How about not violently invading a guy's home for smoking pot, assholes?

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Posted by JW712 on Thursday, January 05, 2012 04:14 AM Pacific
    **Salute** to the downed officers. Our prayers are with the family of the one that did not survive.

    Interestingly enough, the one IDIOT that the news channel interviewed reported that following this exchange of gunfire, police had to escort him back to his house, and told him to stay inside. He admits that he waited all of 5 minutes then came out and stood in his driveway where he could see into the back yard of the suspect while police were engaging him.

    This comment to that F&*@ing MORON... The police have enough problems with the situation, they DO NOT NEED your help, input, or advice. They further should not have to devote resources at a time like that to protect you from yourself. I am sorry that a stray round did not penetrate your thick fricking skull. The next time police 'with rifles' have to escort you home and ask you to stay inside, just do it! What is wrong with our society these days?

    Obviously there is no way to know if this was posted by a LEO, but it does give insight to the cops vs. civilians mindset growing in this country. It's pretty sickening.

  • Mainer||

    Sickening indeed. The man stood in his own driveway observing the situation (no "help, input, or advice"), and he should die ?

    Also this: "This has always been a quiet neighborhood. We've been here for 11 years," said Andrew Mair....

    No one seems to make the connection that it was the police playing SWAT team that brought the violence.

  • shamalamadingdong||

    My response to the policeone blog, which does not accept comments from non-cops...

    I hate to see anybody lose their life, my sympathies to the families of all involved here.

    This incident is a result of the idiotic "war" on drugs. Apparently, the suspect in this case smoked pot. He wasn't a serial killer, a bank robber or any other kind of dangerous person. There was no imminent threat to anybody, yet the police acted like they were capturing Osama Bin Laden.

    This incident would not have happened if the police had acted sensibly. Instead of busting down the guy's door while dressed as ninjas, how about waiting until the guy is at work and safely arresting him there and then go search his house? When you violently enter a person's house while they are sleeping, and enter while dressed in camoflauge it is reasonable to be met with armed resistance.

    Police policy and conduct in this incident were stupid and provoked this response. The cops in this incident are as much to blame as the guy who woke up to armed home invaders and started shooting.

  • Thom||

    Public officials carrying out their public duties...privately. I wonder how many of these officers have ever used the "if you have nothing to hide" nonsense their victims...

  • shamalamadingdong||

    I have to agree with Dunphy here. The "citation please" crap gets old, and is generally used as an ad hominim weapon in a discussion. Dunphy is generalizing about the police based on his personal experience. We all do that, and there is nothing wrong with it. Usually, such generalizations are accurate.

    Sure, it would be nice to see some reliable statistics on police firings, and on cops turning in bad cops. Such a statistic might even have the effect of changing a few minds (around here) about the trustworthyness of cops, but Dunphy is probably correct in that nobody compile such statistics.

    And this comment comes from a guy who goes out of his way to avoid cops, i.e., me.

  • BigT||

    Some stats. Might not help this argument, however.

    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=4053

  • ||

    Law enforcement / i.e cops need to understand that they are beholden to the public and law abiding citizens.

    They need to call us sir and ma'am and protect and defend us because we are paying them a very generous salary and an even more generous pension and benefits.

    We are the boss, we own them and they had better well understand the relationship that the owner doesn't kiss axx. They are the public servants, not the public.

    I respect LE as long as they respect us and those that pay their wages.

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