Breaking News: Congresswoman Among Those Shot, Reportedly Killed at Public Event

This is just awful.

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and six others died after a gunman opened fire at a public event on Saturday, the Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office confirms. The 40-year-old Democrat was outside a Tucson grocery store when a gunman ran up and began firing indiscriminately. The suspect was taken into police custody.

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head and killed outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

The 40-year-old Democrat, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at a Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Other news outlets are reporting the shooting, but as of 2:15pm ET, NPR and Reuters are the only two I can see that have reported that Giffords has died. The suspect was reportedly detained by bystanders and is now in custody.

MORE: There are now reports both confirming and contradicting the early reports of Giffords death. 

MORE: A surgeon at one local hospital has confirmed at a press conference that Giffords is still alive, and that he is "very optimistic" about her recovery. Great news for her and her family. He also confirmed that there were other fatalities, and that at least five people at his hospital are in critical condition. He also confirmed that a nine-year-old girl shot at the event died at the hospital. I'm going to stop the updates for now. Feel free to post links to new developments in the comments.

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  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    RIP congresswoman Giffords. A sad day for America.

  • Rather||

    she's in surgery and not DOA

  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    Yes, hopefully thats accurate. The reports are changing by the minute.

  • KPres||

    From a girl who knew him in HS:

    "we listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part Anti-Flag was our band."

    "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"

    "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

    http://twitter.com/caitieparker

    They're going to try and blame Libertarians, of course.

  • BeltwayLurker||

    He owned guns, burned flags, got busted for dope and wanted open borders. How could he *not* be Libertarian?

  • RyanXXX||

    It's a sad day for her family, and the families of those killed. Please don't make this about "America"

  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    Oh stop it. Politicians getting gunned down and the resulting laws and crack downs on our freedoms is good for America, right?

  • Dontforget||

    It's a sad day for the families of the 14 people found decapitated in Mexico also. The congresswoman fully supports those policies that cause the needless violence down south. I will temper my sorrow for her in light of that fact.

  • ||

    That would be cause to disagree with someone's policies, and fight to get them thrown out of office or have power taken away from them.

    It's not cause to minimize the tragedy of her getting shot in cold blood while sitting in a supermarket.

  • Dontforget||

    Not really. You are judged by what you do in life. Saddam Hussein's death was not tragic due to the harm he caused to humanity. That's an extreme example of course, but it's all a matter of degree. If she has caused harm to others, then tragedy of her getting shot is definitely minimized by the amount of harm she has caused.

    If you think that her border/drug war policies don't cause any real harm that's another argument.

    I am just saying not all deaths are equally sad.

  • ||

    It's not a matter of degree at all. Saddam was directly responsible for the crimes he was executed for. If Saddam had not chosen for those deeds to be done, they would not have happened.

    Pinning the atrocities in the Mexican drug war on a single representative in Congress is ridiculous. You have to follow a gigantic chain of causal links to get from the beheadings to Rep Giffords' votes in Congress, where she is one of 435 representatives anyway.

  • Dontforget||

    I didn't claim she was solely responsible for the atrocities of the drug war. Merely that she supports policies that have real and horrible consequences for Mexicans. It's not a "gigantic chain of causal links" to say someone who supports legislation that enriches criminals should take some moral blame when those criminals destroy a society.

    She's got to have some blame doesn't she? Why can't I take that into consideration? If she were a racist, could I consider that? If she were a jihadist?

    By the way what is sadder, the little girl dying or the politician dying (assuming she does)? Or do we have to pretend they both are equally sad?

  • ||

    The little girl dying is sadder in my opinion, because she had more life ahead of her. But no one here is proclaiming that we shouldn't be sad about the 9-year-old's death, which is why I and others aren't talking about her.

    If she were a racist, could I consider that? If she were a jihadist?

    If you're talking about merely holding racist or jihadist beliefs, then no, you shouldn't take those into account.

    If you're talking about directly harming others because of her racist and jihadist beliefs, then you're comparing apples and oranges.

  • ||

    If you're talking about merely holding racist or jihadist beliefs, then no, you shouldn't take those into account.

    Why can't I make my own moral decisions as to what death is a greater tragedy then another?

    Why can't i take whatever i want into consideration?

  • ||

    You can take into consideration whatever you want, but it doesn't necessarily make your arguments more convincing.

  • ||

    You can take into consideration whatever you want, but it doesn't necessarily make your arguments more convincing.

    In much of this I am arguing for validity not to convince.

    Tupla is saying one cannot take certain things into account when considering ones sympathy. I am arguing that one's sympathy is their own and there cannot be a hard rule as to what they take into account. In fact i would further argue that one has limited choice in what they take into account when they sympathize.

    I think sympathy for a large part is pre-rational response to stimuli.

    I should note someone did mention i should think about this woman's family and her children ect. In this regard i think that person may be correct. I would be able to rationalize sympathy. I could think about the effects of her death and generate honest sympathy for her death (she did not die but at the time of the previous writing it was thought she died). I could do that but I choose not to.

    Tupla thinks I am doing something wrong by not making that choice. I disagree...and furthermore i do not think Tupla can make a plausible argument as to why that choice is a necessity.

  • ||

    I would be able to rationalize sympathy. I could think about the effects of her death and generate honest sympathy for her death (she did not die but at the time of the previous writing it was thought she died). I could do that but I choose not to.

    One other note: Although the sympathy i choose to give this woman, or the lack of, is my own to give or not give, the question as to weather this woman deserves justice is a simple one to answer.

    Yes she does.

    I think as a libertarian it is very important to distinguish between the right to sympathy and the right to justice.

  • ||

    You have a right to give or withhold sympathy.

    I have a right to draw conclusions about you from that choice, especially when you feel compelled to come out and proclaim your apathy about this woman's possible death.

  • omg||

    Pinning the atrocities in the Mexican drug war on a single representative in Congress is ridiculous. You have to follow a gigantic chain of causal links to get from the beheadings to Rep Giffords' votes in Congress, where she is one of 435 representatives anyway.

    This sounds about right to me. If something ever goes wrong because of government policy, no one is at fault. The police weren't at fault, they were just "following orders". Their superiors aren't at fault, they are "enforcing the law" and can't be held responsible for what those in the field do. The people who make the laws aren't at fault, because they can't be held responsible for anything that happens from the law. The executives who signed the bill into a law aren't at fault either - for the same reasons.

    Follow the buck, but watch it close! It never stops.

  • ||

    If something ever goes wrong because of government policy, no one is at fault.

    I'm not in a position to address "something goes wrong" in general, but the responsibility for the beheadings in Mexico falls on the people who actually did the beheadings and those who ordered them to do so. The responsibility for an unarmed citizen being shot by cops falls on the cop who shot that citizen. etc.

    Now if we're talking about the aggregate results of a complex system, obviously it's going to be senseless to place the blame (or credit) on one person. Is it Obama's fault that we have near 10% unemployment? Probably not. It's a very complicated thing, and probably no one's fault in particular. (Though of course we should examine what policies are contributing to this and correct them)

    I'm curious, do you think that the majority of voters in her district are responsible for everything that happens as a consequence of the drug war?

  • ||

    I will attempt to temper my thoughts about what an asshole you are, but it will be difficult in light of the fact that you are such an asshole.

  • Esoteric||

    Well said.

  • Esoteric||

    God. God. So unbelievably awful. My prayers go out to Congresswoman Giffords' family and the families of those slain.

    I'm shaking with anger right now.

  • ||

    Fuck the politician; my sister lives in Tucson. I have to make sure she's OK.

  • Wha?||

    Fuck the politician? Really? Wow.

  • ||

    Sure. Epi is more concerned that one of the other 11 people shot could be his sister. Why wouldn't he care more about her than this famous person that is all the media is talking about? On 9/11, I was concerned that my sister living in DC was in danger way more than the people at the WTC, Pentagon, or United 93 combined. Wouldn't you be?

  • Brian||

    Typing 'fuck the politician' in no way helps him find his sister; in fact it slows him down. It does, however, demonstrate a shocking lack of tact and decency.

  • ||

    Too bad. I don't give a shit about a politician.

  • Dave||

    I strongly disagree with her politics which have likely gravely harmed many. Intentions do matter, though, and hers appear to have been good. So it is disgusting to show such a lack of compassion for this woman just because she's a politician.

  • No||

    Intentions mean fuck-all.

    If you don't agree, then who would you rather hang out with: a doctor who intends to kill you but saves your life or a doctor who intends to save your life but kills you?

  • Robert Enders||

    Is this a serious question? I would imagine that the doctor who tried to save my life but killed me would be much more pleasant to be around in the afterlife.

  • Hugh Akston||

    *psst* There is no afterlife.

  • ||

    evidence?

  • Robert||

    Well, is she a good fuck? I haven't heard. And would she be a better fuck dead or alive?

  • RobSmalls||

    Maybe you should kill yourself and find out, ass.

  • Robert||

    LOL, and I never write that unless I really mean it. Good one!

  • Sailor||

    fuck the politician

  • ||

    American Politicians are killing American citizens today.

    Perhaps it would be better if we empathize with those deaths rather then some congress critter.

    Also people are murdered in this country every day. Why should i know and care about a congresswoman's death when i have no fucking idea about all those other people who were killed.

  • Esoteric||

    Rather than just screaming at you, I'll point out that political violence has a massive ripple effect that, whether you like it or not, far outstrips a normal murder. That's why it's a FUCKING BIG FUCKING DEAL IF/WHEN A CONGRESSMAN GETS SHOT.

  • Rather||

    Estoric, you're right. These events mimic the plague; it will happen again soon.

  • ||

    I'll point out that political violence has a massive ripple effect that, whether you like it or not, far outstrips a normal murder.

    I will admit that really fucking sucks and will really fucking suck. My guess is the effects will be negative to liberty. That is the tendancy for how government reacts.

    Still I do not have any feelings about the death of a congressmen.

    I am sure their are people who have no feelings about the death of a drug user who was imprisoned for it and died in jail through violence.

    To me the death of that drug user is a far far far greater tragedy.

  • -||

    Sick bastard.

  • ||

    Sick bastard.

    I would contest a society that morns the death of its prisoners more then the deaths of its leaders is a more moral society then one that does the opposite.

  • Pendulum||

    I would content that you're a sick bastard.

  • ||

    Hey Joshua, maybe it will help you be more human if you also realize that she is a wife and mother as well. She has a family that loves her and that is now devastated. If your reaction to a situation like this is to come to a message board and spout off like some sort of wanna be tough guy then I really feel sorry for you. You too need to grow up.

  • the right does it too||

    So What. Wives and mothers, brothers, husbands and sisters are dying every day in wars politcians have created. Your point is what?

  • ||

    My point is that he shouldn't try to come off like some sort of callous wanna be tough guy prick when a tragedy like this occurs. If the article was about a woman who died in battle and he wrote what he wrote, i would have the same reaction.

  • ||

    My point is that he shouldn't try to come off like some sort of callous wanna be tough guy prick when a tragedy like this occur.

    This is factually incorrect. These are my honest feelings. In some ways I do not like how my feelings come off to other people. In fact my "callous tough guy attitude" is probably more detrimental then helpful to me on this board. I would rather people listened to my opinions and gave them consideration.
    Me being a "callous tough guy" and a "sick bastard" does not help my cause at all.

  • ||

    I fel the same way, joshua. I have no sympathy for this woman either. I truly believe that she has injured, killed, and ruined the lives of more people than the six killed/ 12 injured by the shooter. I think of Bernie Madoff-he ruined the lives of thousands of people. Would murdering him be wrong? Yes. Would a lot of people be indifferent to his death? Yes. Would some celebrate his passing? Yes. Giffords policies kill, harm, and like Madoff steal from citizens. What pisses me off is the fuckin Thought Police who tells you how you should or shouldn't present your emotions. Those thoughts are yours. What kind of asshole tells you that you should come off as sympathetic? People like that threaten liberty.

  • ||

    My point is that he shouldn't try to come off like some sort of callous wanna be tough guy prick when a tragedy like this occurs. If the article was about a woman who died in battle and he wrote what he wrote, i would have the same reaction.

  • Robert||

    You never know how these things will work, and you never know how things would've worked out in their absence. I sometimes wonder whether John Kennedy's death (the president, not John-John) prevented World War 3, which for all we know he might've gotten us into. I don't think it would've been anywhere near as simple as in J. Neal Schulman's story (but he was writing for a half hour TV show, so he couldn't've given a more plausible sequence), but I think JFK was really dangerous. Of course so were LBJ & Nixon, but JFK might've been the most volatile of them all.

  • JoshINHB||

    I'll point out that political violence has a massive ripple effect that, whether you like it or not, far outstrips a normal murder.

    True,
    but no on in the media gives a shit about the politically motivated killing that happens as a result of botched drug raids and

    1) those killings are much more frequent than the murder of politicians, and

    2) represent a direct threat to everyone.

  • ||

    Yeah. Fuck the politician. At least 8 other people were shot, and I've heard that a child was killed.

    The really shitty thing is this going to be all about the Congresscritter. No one will remember the innocent people who were shot. They're peasants to the media and they don't count.

  • ||

    Sorry, but why shouldn't the media give more attention to the congresswoman? It's what more people are interested in.

    I'm refreshing Google News over and over this afternoon to find updates about Giffords and the shooter. It's what I'm curious about. It's what I, as an American citizen, have an investment in. I "know" her. I'd be pissed if the media's energy and resources weren't largely directed toward her shooting.

    So, yes, this is going to "be all about the Congresscritter," and there's no reason it shouldn't.

  • Wha?||

    To an anarchist, a dog shot by a cop is newsworthy, but a Congresswoman shot by an anarchist is not. Such is their hierarchy of values. They're humanitarians, you see.

  • ||

    It has nothing to do with "values" or being an anarchist. Someone could be thrilled to see the congresswoman dead and still be interested in the news -- indeed, that's WHY they'd be interested in the news.

  • ||

    I'm not an anarchist.

  • imhotep||

    fuck the dog too.

  • Robert||

    if they['re humanitarians, wouldn't they at least be interested in how Congresswomen taste?

  • ||

    I'm making a normative statment. Instead of worrying about a professional parasite, we should be mourning the death of a child.

  • ||

    "I'm making a normative statment. Instead of worrying about a professional parasite, we should be mourning the death of a child."

    I don't like professional parasites either. But I'm interested -- for any number of reasons -- when one of them is shot.

    Lots of children have died today. You can mourn as many as you like. One congresswoman was shot today -- in fact, one congresswoman was shot ever. That's why she's dominating the news coverage.

    You're applying the wrong framework to the thing. "Worrying" and "mourning" have nothing to do with it, and shouldn't.

  • ||

    My egalitarian instincts showing through I guess. The money is in covering her, but we all know markets are amoral. Just me raging against the world, which makes me feel better sometimes.

  • Ted S.||

    Yeah. Fuck the politician. At least 8 other people were shot, and I've heard that a child was killed.

    Why should we care aboute the dead child more than the dead adults?

    Seriously, every time I see some bitch (it's almost always a woman) on TV reading a story about some car crash/fire and it has a line like "Ten people were killed; three of them were children", I want to reach the screen, throttle the bitch, and ask, "Why don't you give a damn about the seven adults who died?"

  • ||

    I agree with you on this, and I'm a woman. I tend to think that the parents/society has input less into a child than an adult, so the the loss of the adult is the greater tragedy. People will talk about the child's potential, but potential can go either way. A productive adult is a sure thing.

  • ||

    I'm not more upset about a child because society lost more. I am because I remember what being a scared, fairly innocent child was like. And it's more disturbing when somebody shoots that and causes it to die.

    And no, maybe they weren't going to do anything in life but they didn't get much of a chance. Your creepy egalitarianism is creepy.

  • Ted S.||

    What upsets me about it is that the mentioning of how many children died, and ignoring the adults, is clearly an attempt to play on people's emotions. I find that manipulation in the news disgusting.

  • ||

    Show some class, Episarch. Grow up.

  • ||

    Aww, does not caring about a politician bother you, buddy? Too fucking bad. Go worship your masters somewhere else.

  • LL||

    You really are a piss-poor sack of shit, Epi.

  • ||

    Blow me.

  • Epi's Fan Club||

    How's your day Epi?

  • ||

    You not caring about a human being being shot and then acting all tough about it online bothers me. If you seriously can not figure out the difference between a mother being shot and "worshiping your masters" then you truly are a pathetic guy who talks big while hiding behind a keyboard. in a way i feel sorry for you. my guess is you don't have many friends.

  • Esoteric||

    It really is the "internet tough guy" phenomenon, isn't it?

    My other theory is an autism spectrum disorder. As much as I hate to admit, our crowd does have a tendency to attract those types...especially online...

  • ||

    exactly esoteric. tough guy online who wouldn't say shit with people around (not that guys like epi and corning and warty get around others that much anyway).

  • Rather ||

    Esoteric, "My other theory is an autism spectrum disorder" I intended to write on this phenomenon. I think it accounts for why so many Libertarians are men, and as in ASD, few are women.

  • ||

    I'm a woman, a libertarian, and don't really give a shit about the congresswoman. Why don't I go around announcing these thoughts to everyone? Because people will think I'm some kind of militia nut. I also don't want to attract the suspicion of the authorities. And maybe I have Asperberger's...

  • hurrr||

    "Boohoo, someone doesn't share my concern so I speculate about him having no friends."

    And you're calling Epi pathetic.

  • Epi||

    my guess is you don't have many friends

    Do virtual friends count? What about Star Trek figurines?

  • Esoteric||

    Fuck you. How about that?

  • ||

    Epi is an anarchist.

    To him a congresswoman is like Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

    Did you cry when you heard Saddam died?

    Epi simply has different values then you do. He does not have to love your heroes.

  • Esoteric||

    I don't consider politicians to be "my heroes," asshole. But I do consider my country and my constitution to be something I love and cherish and treasure.

    Political violence like this threatens all of that.

    So seriously, fuck Epi and his cavalier mannner. And fuck anyone who doesn't get why this is awful.

  • -||

    Behold the values of anarchists. Is it any wonder that even the left won't have them? They're outcasts, and for good reason. This event demonstrates their utter lack of perspective, morality, humanity.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Um... most anarchists ARE of "the left". And the left will always make excuses for their own.

  • Jeffersonian||

    I have yet to see a single black-bloc'er come out for a Tea Party shindig, and port-side hootenannies are chock-a-block with them. Must be some of those big-government anarchists we've heard so much about.

  • ||

    Oh, anonypussy, do you think your masturbatory "concern" over the death/injury of someone you don't know, don't actually care about, and will forget tomorrow, isn't obvious bullshit? You don't care about anyone here; you care about appearing to care. Which, in its way, is ghoulish in the extreme. You're using someone else's tragedy to express how "good" a person you are. Enjoy your completely false emotions, scumbag.

  • pete||

    Episiarch,
    I didn't know the people who were killed on 9/11, or the people killed in the Oklahoma City bombings, or Kurds killed by Saddam Hussein. That doesn't mean I can't be horrified in the moment of seeing the event on tv or somewhere else, of people being wiped out in a violent way. And I don't immediately think of their profession or their politics when it happens. That's not b.s.; it's just a normal, human reaction to ovewhelming violence that one hears or sees to one's fellow human beings (sure, it wouldn't hit me nearly as hard, and sure, I won't remember it so long, but that still doesn't mean it's not just as honest to feel hit in the gut by the immediacy of a tragic event one is witness to - if I see someone's been hit in a car accident, I'd feel shocked, and rush to help, regardless of whether I knew them or what their politics were).

  • ||

    And Episiarch just cares about being seen as above it all and as some sort of empathy is for the weak tough guy. Guys like episiarch and joshua corning are the worst. they're the ones in high school who were smart and clever but nobody liked because they think they are better than everybody else. they're the ones who got pushed into lockers and got their heads pushed into toilets and deserved it every single time. fucking tools.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    "the ones in high school who were smart and clever but nobody liked because they think they are better than everybody else"

    Shit, you just described virtually every politician. Well-done.

  • ||

    I do consider my country and my constitution to be something I love and cherish and treasure.

    The irony being that this now dead congress critter use to wipe her ass with your beloved constitution on a daily basis.

  • -||

    Keep digging, creep. Internet comments are forever. You're despicable.

  • ||

    Keep digging, creep. Internet comments are forever.

    Is that a threat?

  • ||

    Are you hard of reading, Joshua, or just not very smart? How did you interpret what he wrote as a threat? Man, the more I read from you, the less I respect you. You truly are an idiot.

  • ||

    How did you interpret what he wrote as a threat?

    Easy

    Internet comments are forever.

    Either he/she means that my evil remarks will be read sometime in the future and it will hurt me all on their own. Or he/she means to expose my evil remarks when the time is ripe.

    so it is either a threat to expose them or it is not. So I asked.

    I never did get a response.

  • ||

    I forgot that i was interacting with an autistic vulcan who isn't too smart. I'll explain it to you really slowly and carefully with small words Joshua. When normal people ask "is that a threat" they mean is the other person going to try to come after them in some sort of way (hit them, for example, or vandalize their house). You seem to interpret a threat where there is only a statement of fact. Expose your evil remarks when the time is ripe? what does that even mean, Joshua? your remarks are there for everybody to see, and anonymous was just pointing that out. rather than heed his/her advice, you just kept on digging. predictable, really.

  • ||

    Concern troll is concerned about the parasite class. Color me astonished.

  • hurrr||

    Guess you don't love the first amendment so much then.

  • Esoteric||

    What in god's name are you talking about? How did the first amendment get introduced into this discussion? Epi and Joshua Corning have a right to express their sociopathically amoral opinions; I have a right to call them witless poseur internet-tough-guy fucksticks.

  • durp||

    Yes, the underlying message is that you want them to express these "sociopathically amoral opinions".

  • paloma||

    I believe I do get why this is awful, and yes we can feel bad for the families of the murdered victims, especially the little girl, and still have some sympathy for the congresswoman.
    Still the important question is WHY this happened, because it doesn't seem to be a random shooting, but rather the congresswoman, carrying out her job as a public official, was almost certainly the target. It's not as though a senile driver got confused and drove his car into the crowd and the congresswoman just HAPPENED to be one of those injured, and here we are feeling sorry for HER, rather than those killed.

  • TJ||

    Political violence like this threatens all of that.

    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    It is its natural manure. --Thomas Jefferson
  • Esoteric||

    You cannot be fucking serious. Citing that old, horrible Jefferson quote? The one that has damn near auto-discredited him as a serious thinker for centuries?

    I have never been more revolted by or disappointed in the reaction of (some in) the Reasonoid community.

  • Oh Do Shut Up||

    I was referring to your blanket claim that political violence threatens to destroy this country and the constitution. Take your ersatz disappointment and blow it out your ass, you phoney.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Hey, Esoteric... do you think the Constitution is yucky and old, like Ezra Klein does?

  • Esoteric||

    Please. I'm not some lefty troll. What Jefferson wrote has nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with his own fucked up romanticist fantasies. There's a reason he's always been our Least Valuable Founding Father.

    And I've had the pleasure of viciously insulting Ezra Klein to his face, several times, so comparing me to him is way out of line. Them's fightin' words.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I was replying to your "old, horrible Jefferson quote", which was neither.

  • ||

    I don't consider politicians to be "my heroes," asshole.

    Sorry about that. The sentence looked good when i wrote it.

  • ||

    i get the sense you do that a lot, joshua corning. write something without thinking, post it, and then regret it because you come off looking like a moron. if you had any character whatsoever, you would just chill out for a while and stop making yourself look so foolish. somehow, i have a feeling you won't.

  • Epi||

    Like many of the serial commentators here, JC is a narcissist. He can't help himself. It's a sickness.

  • nj||

    Yeah so what if he is an anarchist. I am a theoretical anarchist, but don't believe in violence.

    I find nothing admirable about public office, but this is a tragedy and hope she makes it out alive.

  • ||

    Yeah so what if he is an anarchist. I am a theoretical anarchist, but don't believe in violence.

    I am very certain Epi does not condone the violence.

    Anyway i should probably stop speaking for him.

  • ||

    Actually, joshua, it was nice of you to speak up for me while I went to brunch. And I have zero opinion on the violence here; I just don't give a fuck about politicians.

  • Esoteric||

    "Zero opinion?" Meaning what, that while you don't applaud it, you also don't condemn it?

    Refusing to condemn political violence is...horrifyingly inexcusable. There is, quite simply, no context in which it's morally okay to "have zero opinion" about the acceptability of assassinating elected American politicians. This isn't a fucking trick question, asshole. Don't get cute and play "internet tough guy."

    Either you have an autism spectrum disorder (of the sort that prevents you from feeling human empathy) or you're a soulless fuckstick whose shoes I wouldn't even deign worth of vomiting on. Maybe both.

  • -||

    "Soulless fuckstick" sounds about right.

  • Rick||

    How did this become an indictment of "anarchists".

  • ||

    Epi is an anarchist and some people do not like his reaction to this so therefor all anarchists are bad or something to that effect.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Only right-ish leaning anarchists are bad, joshua. Didn't you get the memo from MSNBC?

  • ||

    Lies!!

    Leon Czolgosz was an asshole.


    Oh shit...

    I think I just sympathized over the death of a politician...

  • imhotep||

    fuck the police as well.

  • Wha?||

    Libertarian anarchists show their true colors. Sick, sick people.

  • Cytotoxic||

    'Libertarian Anarchist' is an oxymoron.

  • ||

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • Rick||

    Again, why is this about "anarchists"? And how is that that one person on this thread represents all "libertarian anarchists"?

  • ||

    Dude, there are several commenters here who have an absolutely throbbing hardon about anarchism. They also, coincidentally, happen to be Randians. So basically they're collectivists who get really, really pissed off if you call them collectivists.

  • yonemoto||

    is it a bad sign that when I read randian the first thing I thought of was Paul and not Ayn?

  • Cytotoxic||

    Thank you for demonstrating that you don't have the slightest clue what a collectivist is Epi. I guess having a fucking brain would preclude you from being a proponent of Somolia's political system.

  • Cabeza de Vaca||

    "I guess having a fucking brain would preclude you from being a proponent of Somolia's political system."

    Drink.

  • ||

    See how pissed they get when you call them what they are?

  • Poppin' Caps lock||

    Attack the actions of the politicians, not the politician.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Fuck the politician; my sister lives in Tucson. I have to make sure she's OK.

    I must admit that I am impressed that you would take the time to post here given the concern for your family member. Your dedication to the H&R community is admirable.

  • jo||

    Yes, and it might be admirable in some twisted way if Epi thought this was a way to advance liberty. But apparently, that's not his purpose either, as all his reaction does as make that advance harder. So really, his only purpose is in advancing his own narcissism.

  • Ray Pew||

    Yes, and it might be admirable in some twisted way if Epi thought this was a way to advance liberty. But apparently, that's not his purpose either, as all his reaction does as make that advance harder. So really, his only purpose is in advancing his own narcissism.

    Do you really think that the low acceptance of libertarianism by the general public is because of rhetoric, such as Epi's? There is hundreds of times more "offensive" rhetoric by supporters of the two major parties, yet it seems to have no affect on their dominance of politics.

    Freepers or Daily Kos commenters could advocate raping children and still see little change in their ranks, yet somehow Epi's rhetoric is a threat to libertarianism.

  • ||

    He's history's gretatest monster.

  • ||

    Actually yes, Ray Pew, his (and folks like him like josh corning) comments do reflect poorly on the libertarian movement. we are a small group that would like to grow bigger and persuade more people to see the wisdom of our principles. this website (which includes hit and run) is a way of spreading our message. if I was not a libertarian but was interested in it and came here to get a sense of libertarians' thoughts and viewpoints and read such callous and obnoxious responses to the tucson shooting, I would most definitely hesitate to want to learn more about libertarianism. Society in general already sees us as fringe characters- Epi and Josh corning and warty and others like him are reinforcing that viewpoint.

  • Ray Pew||

    And if one were to enter Free Republic or Democratic Underground domain, one would be bombarded with many times more "offensive" rhetoric. So, no, I don't believe that Epi or joshua's rhetoric is detrimental to the ideology. Likewise, the forum has numerous individuals countering their rhetoric, so if one was merely fixated on two individuals in this whole thread, then they were already biased against libertarianism anyway. They were simply searching for validation of their beliefs.

  • ||

    I see what you are trying to say, Ray Pew, but the analogy falls apart because because democraticunderground is a pretty extreme example of a leftist website and free republic is an extreme example of a right wing website; neither site really represents what a typical democrat or republican feels or thinks. Reason, however, is a rather normal and mainstream representation of the libertarian viewpoint, and thus epi's and corning's statements do more harm to our cause than a poster's thoughts on the other two websites would cause the dems/reps.

  • ||

    I see what you are trying to say, Ray Pew, but the analogy falls apart because because democraticunderground is a pretty extreme example of a leftist website and free republic is an extreme example of a right wing website; neither site really represents what a typical democrat or republican feels or thinks. Reason, however, is a rather normal and mainstream representation of the libertarian viewpoint, and thus epi's and corning's statements do more harm to our cause than a poster's thoughts on the other two websites would cause the dems/reps.

  • ||

    exactly Neu Mejican! Epi is an fraud. He and joshua corning are wanna be vulcans- emotions and empathy are for the weak, right epi and josh? Pseudo-intellectual tools is what they are.

  • Ray Pew||

    No. Epi's lack of empathy for politicians is a value judgement, based on his perception of such people. This says nothing about other groups or individuals.

    If one were on Free Republic and the discussion were about Muslims or drug users, the same type of disdain and lack of empathy would be displayed.

  • BeltwayLurker||

    Leave the new hole in her head alone, Pudsiearch. Freaks like you are sick.

  • -||

    Already call-in pundits at CNN and MSNBC are blaming Arizona's "gun-happy" culture.

  • alan||

    That's stupid. If there are maniacs gunning for liberals, why would you not insist on arming yourself with the least constraint on your ability to do so?

  • -||

    One of the networks--I think it was CNN--spoke with a "cartoonist and opinion writer" from a local paper, who said he was not surprised, given the "fetishism" of Arizona's "gun-happy" culture. This was only a few moments after the initial reports had come in, and well before the name of the shooter (and his motive) could have been known. A new low for cable-news journalism.

  • alan||

    Horrible event, like many, but I'll never understand people who take comfort in attempts at suppressing two hundred year old technology. Gangs in London are as well armed as anyone in the world in spite of the laws that make the rest of the subjects slaves.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Because according to Progressive mythology, any time someone draws a gun on you, there's always a big, strong police officer just seconds away to protect you from harm.

    Given what happened to Mrs. Gifford, I think we can safely say that such a myth isn't rooted in reality.

  • ||

    The surprising thing here is that, if this was a planned event there wasn't a police officer or private security anywhere to be found. I would think there'd be something.

  • MediaMatters.org||

    This is Glenn Beck's fault!

  • Soros||

    I'm getting my money's worth now!

  • MooOn.bOrg||

    Can we have some, Uncle George?

  • ||

    From Radley's twitter stream:

    mkhammer Mary Katharine Ham
    by radleybalko
    RT @KOLD_news13 "LATE BREAKING: UMC officials confirm Rep. Giffords is in surgery. She has not been declared dead. **Please RT**
    4 minutes ago

    I hope she is not dead and can recover.

  • Esoteric||

    I hope she makes it through as well, but when you're shot in the head at pointblank range...the prospects for a full recovery are limited to say the least.

    God, this really is awful.

  • ||

    "Already call-in pundits at CNN and MSNBC are blaming Arizona's "gun-happy" culture."

    Maybe they have a point?

  • l0b0t||

    "Maybe they have a point?"

    No, no they do not. Also, fuck off slaver!

  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    The point being that they are idiots? These "pundits" that attach their political philosophy to tragedies are fuckstains, as is any media that gives them a voice

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    The left already has a gigantic throbbing boner over this. I hope this guy turns out to be a liberal who's angry at her for voting against Pelosi (like this guy http://is.gd/knUb2). Not because I want to score political points, but because I want the necrophiliac left to stop masturbating over dead bodies.

  • I would give...||

    ...a million dollars if the shooter were an angry leftist.

  • It's Sad||

    The lefties I know are all over themselves to make it sound like either a conspiracy, a failure of right-wing policies, or in some other way the fault of Republicans.

    It's an unnecessary tragedy and looks pretty obviously to be the work of a deranged individual, regardless of his politics. Every time someone tries to turn something like this into a political "I-told-you-so" I want to punch them in the face.

  • ||

    I find it fascinating, Pete. Every link you have posted to those statements at Kos is broken. Maybe someone did some emergency housekeeping this afternoon?

  • V||

    They do. The purpose of bearing guns is to resist the government if it coerces you. The fact is, no one can fight a trained, partly mechanized army with pistols or shotguns.

    There is too great a risk for regular people for a psycho to buy guns and randomly shoot into a crowd.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Oh, that must be why Afghanistan and Iraq went so swimmingly: because no one can fight a trained, partly mechanized army with pistols or shotguns.

  • ||

    Don't forget how easily the VC were supressed. They had no chance against B-52s and Patton tanks.

  • ||

    Yeah you can fight a mechanized army. But you better have a lot of people willing to die. If being the Taliban or the VC is what winning that type of war looks like, I would rather lose.

  • Taliban||

    Back when we were known as the Mujaheddin fuckers who stated 'better Red than dead' like you just did were taken out back and shot.

  • ||

    He that hath no stomach to this fight, let him depart. His passport shall be made and crowns for convoy put into his purse. We would not die in that man's company, who fears his fellowship to die with us.

  • ||

    You sur gots a purdy mouth

  • Taliban||

    Hey, that's why we gave up.

  • Vietcong||

    Nope. We didn't stand a chance against napalm and Hueys.

  • Colin||

    Every comment underneath V's deserves a +1.

  • Xenocles||

    "The purpose of bearing guns is to resist the government if it coerces you. The fact is, no one can fight a trained, partly mechanized army with pistols or shotguns."

    Let's make a deal. I'll give up my pistols* if you concede the unlimited right to civilian ownership of assault rifles and small explosive weapons, which have been proven capable of offering effective resistance against modern armies.

    *Not really. The above sentence is just to prove a point.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Because a person with a shotgun/pistol/rifle is far more "gun happy" than a government that spends billions on the latest in "death from above" technology, amirite?

  • ||

    You bet I'm more happy about my guns then I am about government guns.

    You take me for a compleate fool?

  • Lenny Bruce||

    So where are all the comments about 1 down, 434 to go? 1 less pol to fuck things up, etc.

  • ||

    I'm saving my ammo for direct attempts at my life and liberties. I dont have the budget for haphazard insanity.

  • alan||

    Understood, but when I read this morning about the individuals who raped severely handicapped patients, I felt like pulling a Dexter.

  • Wouldn't that be...||

    ...534 to go?

  • ||

    Transposition error. Could happen to anyone.

  • eddie||

  • ||

    This just sucks. A free, democratic society requires that debate on the issues without violence. I don't know what this guy's views are, or even if he has notable views, but his actions are despicable and shouldn't be tolerated in a free republic.

  • ||

    What if we don't live in a free republic anymore?

  • imhotep||

    this

  • ||

    Well, I think people need to understand that the ballot or the bullet issue Malcolm X brought up in 1964 applied to a disenfranchised people. So long as we have the franchise, we should avoid violence at all costs. That said, if we lack such a franchise...

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Sorry, but aren't you saying that it's okay for disenfranchised people to commit violence, Todd?

    IMO, it's not okay for anyone to do it.

  • ||

    Would it be OK for North Koreans to commit violence?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    THAT kind of violence, I should have said, is okay.

    This shooting, however, does not fall in that category.

  • Miller||

    I'm with Britt. Now that we've had Porkulus and Obamacare forced down our throats, and the Demorats are stripping us of our most important freedom, economic liberty, can you really say we're better than North Korea? I have nothing against this woman, but any enemy of freedom is an enemy of life in my book. It's time for a real tea party.

  • ||

    Oh come on. The US is nowhere remotely close to North Korea. It's just another paternalist nanny state that passes crappy laws, not a communist dictatorship where dissidents are confined to slave labor camps.

  • Jeffersonian||

    It would be positively great for North Koreans to commit violence against their depraved political class!

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I agree.

    I should have clarified my comments specifically about incidents like this particular shooting.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    We're not there yet, Hobo, but it isn't for a lack of seriously trying... it's just taking a lot longer for the U.S. to get to NorK-level than it took for them to get there.

  • ||

    Mr. FIFY,
    I loathe the American government, but making delusional, hyperbolic false equivalencies is the least reasonable way to get people to agree with your beliefs. Equating even a dick like Waxman, one of the very worst members of Congress, with Hitler or Stalin is silly. Likewise insinuating America is anywhere remotely close to North Korea is equally silly. Even with all the B.S. we put up with, America is still amongst the top 15 freest countries in the world (which doesn't say much for the world, but...) Democratic paternalism is not the same thing as oppressive dictatorship. If we ever got to the latter, only then could political assassinations be potentially justified out of self-defense. We do authoritarian things around the world, but even Wikileaks shows we're more righteous than one would expect an invasive global superpower to be. When Obama starts rounding up dissidents, claiming rule by decree and cancelling elections, get back with me, but until then I won't take your point seriously.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    "Democratic paternalism is not the same thing as oppressive dictatorship"

    No, but it's on the road to same.

  • ||

    Malcolm X? How about Patrick Henry?

    Democracy means the mob gets to vote themselves my property and deny me my rights. I don't want a master, and telling me that getting a choice between two different flavors of tyrant makes me free is laughable and infuriating.

  • Hugh Akston||

    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "the franchise."

    The people of Zimbabwe regularly vote in elections, and Mugabe always wins by a landslide. Smart money says it's not because he's such a man of the people.

    "You're retarded," you'll say. "Here in America people are voted out of office all the time."

    Sure, except that the incumbency rate in Congress is >90%. And even when those losers term-limit out, the Party ensures that the right n00bs get elected, so that no substantial changes rock their pirate boats.

    So yes, we have the franchise in the sense that our masters graciously permit us to flush a piece of paper down the terlet every four years.

    But I can't imagine someone who takes the idea of popular government seriously assenting to the American system.

    Disclaimer: I do not endorse this particular instance of political violence.

  • ||

    CNN now interviewing hospital spokesperson, who is claiming that the congresswoman is current in surgery (i.e., alive).

  • ||

    If she really was shot in the head, alive might not be much of an improvement.

  • Robert||

    I'd like to see a politician's being permanently comatose but alive and unable to be subsituted for, just to see how that'd work.

  • ||

    I'd like to see a politician's being permanently comatose but alive and unable to be subsituted for, just to see how that'd work.

    I am quite sure that any number of them are already doing that. They still treat the Constitution like they treat their diapers.

  • Robert Enders||

    It would depend on if the bullet even penetrated the skull, and which parts of the brain were damaged.

  • ||

    Why are there no descriptions of the gunman? What public event doesn't have extensive video coverage?

    Generally the media would have already released an accurate description of a suspect in a high-profile case like this. The only time they don't is when the suspect is a minority. It's real helpful when you see a news report describing a rapist as "male, 5'10", early 30s". What information was omitted, making it impossible to identify and catch said suspect? Their race.

  • Jeffersonian||

    The report I saw said he's white, around 21 and was wearing black.

  • ||

    I haven't seen any report on the gunman yet. Where did you find it?

  • Jeffersonian||

    There was this at Gawker:

    "The gunman was young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down, although he struggled at first. He was "not particularly well-dressed"; he didn't look like a businessman, but more of a "fringe character," Rayle said. The sheriff's department arrived, arrested the gunman and cordoned off the parking lot."

    It was another report - one I'll try to find again - that said he was 21.

  • celtigirl||

    From the NY Times:

    He said that one of the staffers tackled the gunman and that he and others helped detain the suspect. The doctor described the gunman as a white male in his mid-20s with short hair and “dressed in a shabby manner.”
  • Rather||

    He indiscriminately shot people in the audience. This is why I'm not against CC. My thought was that if it was a Republican politician with a Republican audience, the gunman would not have shot 12 people- he would have had multiple wounds after the first.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    What makes you think that a Congressman's open constituent events would be populated by the like-minded?

    Remember those 2009 town halls?

  • Rather||

    I think it is logical that Democrats would likely go to a Democratic event but definitely supporters would be there and enthusiastically show their allegiance with their behavior, including signs, t-shirts, buttons etcetera. She won narrowly against a Tea Party candidate and a close race often results in bitterness. It will be interesting when we understand the motivation of the gunman.

  • paloma||

    +1

  • Bradley||

    According to MSNBC, at least one person in the crowd was carrying, and shot the gunman.

  • Profiler||

    If I had to profile, I'd say it was not an anti-government type. They usually go after a specific target and are not interested in bystanders. That target may include building were bystanders may be, but not bystanders that they'd have to shoot independently.

    My guess would be someone whose life had something traumatic happen recently and blames this congressperson directly.

  • @||

    Right, Timothy McVeigh certainly didn't kill any "bystanders", he CERTAINLY didn't bomb a daycare since small government types are just too moral!

  • Timothy McVeigh||

    I learned it from you, dad.

  • ||

    Fuck off slaver.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    You can always count on some fuckface to hold up Timothy Fucking McVeigh as some sort of template for everyone right-of-center.

  • ||

    They always forget that he turned radical as a result of the first Gulf War. The guy's views on government and the US were straight out of Noam Chomsky. But, these are the same people who think Lea Harvey Oswald was a member of the far right.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    They *conveniently* forget that part, John. Because it sullies their narrative if they don't.

  • paloma||

    +1

  • Robert||

    No matter his membership, I think it likely that John Connally was his real target and Kennedy got it accidentally.

  • ||

    Timothy Fucking McVeigh as some sort of template for everyone right-of-center.

    I always thought McVeigh was more libertarian then right-of-center.

    And I do not view libertarians as right of center. I view them as their own thing.

    Note: i view McVeigh as a pretty shitty person and i am glad he was put down. Not all libertarians are the cat's meow.

  • Robert||

    What would be most interesting would be if the member of Congress was not his intended target -- i.e. she was either shot by accident or deliberately shot to cover his real motiv'n of killing someone else who was there.

  • ||

    I looked at his youtube page.

    It was political and in all honesty he leaned libertarian more then left or right.

    It also looks like he was an atheist.

    Not a good day for us libertarian atheists.

    Of course the youtube video exposed him as a pretty hug nut job as well....so there is that.

  • KPres||

    From a girl who knew him in HS:

    "we listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part Anti-Flag was our band."

    "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"

    "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

    http://twitter.com/caitieparker

  • d||

    The murderer must be an illegal mexican. If he were young and white, MSNBC and CNN would be replaying their white supremacist stories.

  • imhotep||

  • @||

    http://www.takebackthe20.com/images/map2.png

    No comment necessary.

  • Some other guy||

    You found a clue. IF this is true, Palin should be arrested as a conspirator!!!#@@!eleventy!

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    No comment necessary. http://is.gd/knUb2

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Ha, Daily Kos dropped that diary down the memory hole. Good thing I capped it.

    http://tinypic.com/r/4uxqfq/7

  • Rather||

    Oops

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Fucking KosKowards wiped out the comments.

  • dan||

    In case anyone was theorizing that it was BoyBlue who shot her, he's still been posting on Kos after the attack.

  • @||

    A federal judge is also dead.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    George H. W. Bush appointee.

    U mad???

  • teabagger asshole||

    Don't retreat, RELOAD!

    We need Second Amendment remedies!

    If ballots won't do it, bullets will!

    We live under TYRANNY!!!!!

  • Miggs||

    DIAF, you fucking cunt.

  • Colin||

    Nice try.

    Well, not really.

  • KPres||

    “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night.

    http://goo.gl/B3QKP

  • KPres||

    “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night.

    http://goo.gl/B3QKP

  • @||

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiLppliFzbs

  • sevo||

    ^
    There's a reason they're called brain-deads, and @ is out to prove it.

  • @sshole||

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fcEnJic__4

    DERP DERP DERPY DERP DERP DERP!

  • Jerry||

    I would be surprised if this was a right-wing nut. Didn't AZ recently pass this much debated anti-immigration law? More likely this was some mental patient or so, perhaps a stalker.

  • Nyarlathotep||

    Amazing. The comments section on the Gawker story suggest a number of people are already blaming Sarah Palin. Because, as the undisputed leader of the GOP Mafia, she's known for ordering hits against Democrats who are anti-immigrant and pro-gun rights. While I haven't seen evidence of her involvement in this crime, I'm quite sure these commentators have, so such evidence should be forthcoming. After all, they wouldn't blindly blame people they already hate without such evidence, right?

  • Mike Bloomberg||

    I just know that Times Square bomber was against national health care!

  • George Bush||

    It was my fault

  • ||

    Let me be clear: It was George Bush's fault.

  • Slut Bunwalla||

    Going by what people I know are posting on facebook, it's already been decided that this is Palin's fault. Their posts were the first I saw of this and initially I thought Palin had done something or been involved in some sort of shooting incident.

  • @||

    Giffords had a 95% rating from the ADA.

  • @||

    "The Congresswoman's father was asked if her daughter has any enemies.

    Yeah, the whole Tea Party".

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/n.....WGSRKnuK8J

  • ||

    Yeah, and the entire daily Kos comentariate. The woman voted against Pelosi for speaker. And she is a hardliner on immigration. And one of the trolls over there, who has a history of violence, was already saying he had given her thousands of dollars and she was "dead to him".

    In 2008, Kos frequently spoke of how he didn't just want to win, but to "break these people's spirits". That place has been a cauldron of violent language for years. And who has been their number one target the last few months? Blue dog moderate Democrats.

    First thing the Tuscon police need to do is serve a search warrant and and copy all of the contents of their entire server. Then start looking for connections.

    And she was also Jewish and pro Israel. That also made her a target for those kinds of people.

  • @||

    She had a 95% rating from Americans for Democratic Action you idiot.

  • ||

    So what. Trotsky was pretty good communist to. Didn't help him much did it? That 5% got people on KOS speculating about her death.

  • @||

    Here we go again with "liberals are Communists".

    Fuck you and fuck that irresponsible rhetoric. It's a vile insult to people who actually had to live under actual Communism.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    So... communism lite is okay, then?

  • ||

    I am not the one speculating about dissenters deaths. The people on KOS are. If they don't want to associated with violence, they should stop advocating and fantasizing about it.

    And fortunately not every liberal is like the brain dead fanatics that inhabit KOS.

  • SWAT||

    "First thing the Tuscon police need to do is serve a search warrant"
    Do they have puppies?

  • ||

    Let's everybody jump to conclusions.
    There is no way this guy acted alone. There must be a conspiracy. I think it was a combination of Castro, the Mob and the CIA.

  • ||

    No Putin?

  • ||

    Well, the film purportedly showing him on the grassy knoll has been confiscated.

  • ||

    "I came to confess. I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll."

  • Marilyn Monroe||

    I can definitely say that the Kennedys had nothing to do with this one.

  • V||

    A simple utilitarian calculation shows that US politicians have killed millions of Americans thanks to the FDA delay of untested, potentially life-saving medicine.

    I'm not going to shed a tear for politicians, although gunning down oppressed civilians is despicable, so clearly the death of a single politician is not worth it if even one of the oppressed has to die or be injured as collateral damage.

    However, I also believe non-violent resistance will yield better results in the fight against Big Gov't. I'm not going to condemn any revolutionaries, though - it would mean that I also have to condemn Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, etc.

  • ||

    So are we taking bets on if the shooter is a left wing nut, right wing nut or a confused nut like the majority of them tend to be?

  • ||

    First she yells about last night. Now off to the store to buy her products she cant be bothered with. This traffic is nuts today. Who are all these yahoo's blocking the parking lot.
    HONK! HONK! Out of the way! Did that jackwad just flip me off? Ah hell thats it. YOU want some of this?!?!?

  • ||

    when i wrote "confused nut like the majority of them tend to be"

    i meant the majority of nut job killers not the majority of everyone.

    I have larger faith in the majority then i let on.

  • ||

    With all caveats about how we know nothing about motives, it's worth noting that she was also Jewish. Could turn out to be a factor.

    And as much as I loathe the state and all of its minions, she is a real, live human with family and friends who love her. To treat her injury/death as any kind of cause for celebration seems to me to endorse precisely the sorts of violence that libertarians claim to abhor.

    It helps us not one whit to use violence for anything but stopping the immediate use of violence itself. Standing in front of Safeway talking to constituents does not qualify.

  • a||

    "it's worth noting that she was also Jewish. Could turn out to be a factor."

    Is that the first thing that you look up any time a crime occurs? Whether the victim's ethnicity is the same as your own?

  • a||

    How many Jews are gunned down for being Jewish in the U.S. each year, by the way? How many American assassinations does that factor into, Mr. Paranoid Victim?

  • ||

    2009 is the last year for which statistics are available. Jews suffer 70% of the hate crimes committed in this country. 8 murders were classified as hate crimes in 2009. So statistically between 5 and 6 people were killed last year for being Jewish, assuming an even distribution.

    That's from a cursory glance though, of

  • KPres||

    From a girl who knew him in HS:

    "we listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part Anti-Flag was our band."

    "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"

    "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

    http://twitter.com/caitieparker

  • l0b0t||

    From the comments on the Politico article - "I would not be shock if this is another fringe libertarian not a conservative or a liberal who did this."
    This is in addition to the many calls to ban the tea party & jail Palin/Beck/Rush et al. Why is this assumed to be a politically motivated attack upon the Yea-saying Ballot Leach? Are not there several more frequently occurring motivators of multiple homicides?

  • ||

    "Why is this assumed to be a politically motivated attack"

    Because politics is all these people know. And violence is what they would do if they had the guts. So they assume that is what their opponents will do.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Paulie Krugnuts weighs in: http://nyti.ms/cScOhs

    "We don’t have proof yet that this was political, but the odds are that it was."

    Really, Professor? You know the odds? I'm going to ask you what you ask your students to do: show your work.

  • Pendulum||

    Er, because the shooter was calling out the names of victims as he shot? At a political rally? Where he shot a Congresswoman? And a federal judge?

    Of, course, you're right - it's possible he was a paranoid schizophrenic who got lost. Why are you so excited about this slim possibility?

  • ||

    "Er, because the shooter was calling out the names of victims as he shot?"

    You don't know that that is true. And if it is, that points to him knowing not just her but her staff. A random nut wouldn't know her staff's name. That points to him being a disgruntled employee of some kind. How else would he know everyone's name?

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    At a political rally?

    This was a "political rally"?

    How do you figure?

  • Rather||

    I guess you have not been masturbating around politicians-everything they do and say is a political rally

  • paloma||

    +1000

  • Rather||

  • nj||

    I am always baffled by stuff like that. Last time I checked, a reason why libertarians tend to be anti-war is because of our opposition to violence. There is that whole non-aggression thing hacks tend to miss when talking about libertarians.

  • ||

    I can see how they make that mistake. I'm very aggressive protecting my life and personal liberties. For people who are a direct threat to those things. Libertarians are a waking nightmare.

  • ||

    CONGRESSWOMAN SHOT, GUNMAN IN CUSTODY
    Americans eagerly wait to learn which political points get to be scored

  • ||

    Sad but true. Just fucking pathetic. If the guy is a Kosite who went berserk, it would still make him the same scum bag.

  • affenkopf||

    Why wait. You can score political points without knowing anything about the shooter. Just ask libs already blaming Palin or John blaming DailyKos.

  • ||

    I am not blaming KOS. I am just tweaking the liberals for being jackasses. There is one person responsible for this, that scumbag who did it. That is it. His political views are irrelevant.

    Sorry the sarcasm wasn't more evident.

  • affenkopf||

    I was refering to your post at 3:42PM not the one at 3:49PM.

    Okay, there was no direct blame on dailykos but you wanting the police to seize their servers is pretty dumb (as long as there is no proven connection between the shooter and dailykos).

  • ||

    My wanting the police to seize their servers was complete sarcasm. I was trolling at dumb ass. Sorry it didn't come through.

  • @||

    Cut the "both sides" bullshit. Only one part of the spectrum has been babbling about how we live in a tyranny with a Maaxist Muslim Black Panther Socialist Fascist at its head who is setting up death panels for grandma.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Maaxist Muslim Black Panther Socialist Fascist

    I'm a committed Maaxist. You should see how elegant my bathroom fixtures are!

    Exit question: that guy who flew the plane into the IRS building - you know, who quoted the Communist Manifesto - what motivated him?

  • @||

    He was angry about the income tax.

    Gee, who else gets their panties in a wad about the income tax?

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    You're going to have to focus your question a little bit, because the last time I looked, the left was insane with rage about the income tax, and why people making over $200,000 weren't paying 95% rates.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    It's obvious what kind of fucktard @ is...

  • Pendulum||

    Agree. And putting a target over the Congresswoman, saying that "we've diagnosed the problem - help us prescribe the solution."

    http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/15645

  • Mr. FIFY||

    So, @... you're okay with all that stuff, then?

  • ||

    4 years ago we lived under a corporate fascist Big Oil Halliburton Blackwater tyranny that was going to draft our kids to die in Iraq.

    Fuck off you partisan cunt.

  • Ted S.||

    How quickly people forget "Bushitler".

  • KPres||

    From a girl who knew him in HS:

    "we listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part Anti-Flag was our band."

    "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"

    "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

    http://twitter.com/caitieparker

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    I haven't seen John blaming DailyKos or anyone else.

    Here's you: "Herp derp team red and team blue are the same, duurrrrrr"

  • Lord Jubjub||

    I really don't support the death penalty.

    I am willing to make exceptions.

  • Bee Tagger||

    Great, what a principled stance you've staked out; you're against the death penalty unless someone does something that you feel is worthy of the death penalty.

    Isn't that pretty much anyone's position who's pro-death penalty?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Congresscritters stick together

    House Speaker John Boehner condemned the attack.

    "An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve," he said in a statement. "Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society."

  • @||

    Boehner isn't a teabagger and he's probably utterly shocked at the monster his party has cynically unleashed.

  • @||

    ...because leftists NEVER commit this kind of violence!

  • Anonymous Coward||

    1. Curb your assumptions/enthusiasm until there is some actual information on the shooter.

    2. Boehner has been repeatedly referred to as a "teabagger" by the KosKiddies and HuffingPainters. You should get on message with the rest of your tribe before you get excommunicated.

  • Seer||

    "cynically"

    Interesting word choice there. All those who oppose the great HOPE are cynics!

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    "An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve," he said in a statement.

    Cheesiest Crust, way to make it about yourself...

  • ||

    He is a politician. That is what they do.

  • l0b0t||

    1st comment from the WSJ article quoting Speaker Boehner - "Boehner has Congresswoman Gifford’s blood on his hands as surely as the trigger man in Arizona — he didn’t have the moral backbone to insist that the right back down from the violent rhetoric of Palin, Beck, Angle, Bachmann. They bought this today and I hope they feel the blood of Ms. Giffords and the other victims on their hands for the rest of their natural lives. For shame."
    What happened to the WSJ, is it no longer read only by tycoons?

  • ||

    The trolls are out in full force. They have been hoping and praying for some sort of political violence they could slander their opponents with since the Tea Party started. They all have the same talking points. And they are everywhere.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    It's worse than that, John... there are people - in power and just plain ordinary freaks who worship people in power - who ache for this sort of thing to happen so they can use it as an excuse to clamp down on society even more.

  • ||

    You can just hear the joy in their posts. They are so happy over this. It is just disgusting. A nine year old girl dies and all these sick bastards can think is "we are really going to get the other side now". I feel sorry for them.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    In the long run, acts like this will snowball into even tighter-fisted government action, against everyone.

    Think the Patriot Act-lickers and TSA-lovers were bad before? Shit like this will make life worse for the 99.99999% of people who DON'T commit/want to commit crazy-fuck violent acts just to prove a point.

  • @||

    I don't blame Boehner. He's just a Republican who wants some tax cuts for his Wall St. buddies and maybe a small foreign war.

    The problem is the new generation of Republicans like Beck and Palin and Baachman who are stone cold, fucking crazy and one step away from being violent. And their followers already are.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Hey, @, downthread you insinuated that anti-taxers = violent thugs. Care to elaborate on which view you take?

  • @||

    There's a difference between wanting a tax cut and thinking the income tax is illegal, as the guy who attacked the IRS did (and its a common trope on the libertarian right).

  • ||

    "who wants some tax cuts for his Wall St. buddies"

    As opposed to Obama who has looted the treasury for his wall street buddies. You really are this un self aware aren't you?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Go fuck yourself, @. You just said "every libertarian is violent". Back it up with proof, or - again - go fuck yourself.

    Or, AND go fuck yourself. Or just go the fuck away and post on Kos instead.

  • ||

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • Ray Pew||

    I don't blame Boehner. He's just a Republican who wants some tax cuts for his Wall St. buddies and maybe a small foreign war.

    The problem is the new generation of Republicans like Beck and Palin and Baachman who are stone cold, fucking crazy and one step away from being violent. And their followers already are.

    Yeah, cause "small foreign wars" aren't violent.

  • Joshua||

    Are you rabid or something? Half the time I see Beck, he's crying to folks begging them NOT to get violent.

    I know you're multi-orgasmic because you get to (wrongly) castigate righties (in the wrong place no less) for their rhetoric, but Please! let's get back to reality!

  • Intrepid Demise||

    Military men and women serve. Police officers. Firemen. Those people serve the public. Politicians, by and large (and much to the disdain of the public), live to be served BY the public.

  • ||

    Concerning the conflicting reports.
    My brother was clinically dead 5 times during the 24 hours after his head injury.

    As his family we only heard of 2 of them during those 24 hours. If we had heard of all 5 times...

    I hope NASA cut loose to get her husband there.

  • @||

    His name is Jared Laughner.

    Yup, definetley an illegal Mexican !!11!11

  • ||

    Clearly a conservative. You can tell by the syllables in his name. And of course no white person ever got angry about open borders or anything.

  • Pendulum||

    Seriously, what is your problem?

  • ||

    My problem is with shitheads like you and @ who will stand on dead bodies to slander your political opponents. This nut's political views have nothing to do with this. He is a scumbag who needs to be shot. Whether he is a liberal, conservative or whig has nothing to do with it. And anyone who claims otherwise is an amoral partisan scumbag who has no place in rational society.

  • Pendulum||

    "This nut's political views have nothing to do with this."

    His motivation is irrelevant? It has nothing to do with it? The fact that we have a potential act of political TERRORISM doesn't bother you?

    And if you'll even grant the possibility that it was a rightwing zealot, It's totally irrelevant that Sarah Palin's website had a rifle target over her district and declared "We've diagnosed the problem - Help us prescribe the solution"?

    The fact that you think that this is about people being "partisan" demonstrates that you have some deep seated guilt about how some of your side's supporters have been behaving. Now naturally, you'll go find some idiot Kossite who actually IS being partisan, and generalize based upon that.

    This is almost certainly an act of political terrorism - whichever side committed it - and you want to whistle in the wind, because you suspect it came from your side. I bet you didn't think that motivation was irrelevant when it was Muslims doing the killing.

  • ||

    The only guilt I have is that I haven't done enough to help do something about our education system that produces ignorant people such as you. The fact that this guy believed in one ideology or another says nothing about the millions of people who share that ideology who are not violent.

    When it turns out this guy is a liberal what will you say then? Will you blame Pelosi and KOS? I won't. But you will say nothing because you are a partisan scumbag enjoying the tragic deaths of people because you think it will help your side.

    May God help your soul. Your politics have clearly corrupted any sense of morality you ever had.

  • alan||

    When I was a young teenage lefty I remember having to defend against the perception of violence. Every violent political actor from the storming of Congress by a PR faction in '52, Oswald, Weathermen Underground, Manson Gang, Chapman, Hinkley, from '52 to '82, were left wing lunatics. They are just trying to make up for previous skewing of the political violence spectrum.

  • ||

    And no, the billion Muslims who don't bother anyone are not responsible for the nuts who blow shit up.

  • Pendulum||

    No, but the imams who make the veiled (or unveiled) calls for violence that inspire the young, impressionable terrorists have blood on their hands.

    And your failure to even consider the notion that the tactics of Michael Savage ("Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"), Sarah Palin ("We've Diagnosed The Problem; You Prescribe The Solution," hint hint), and Ann Coulter ("Treason: Liberal TREACHERY"), might be relevant is disgraceful and pathetic. Say what you will about my morality - your morality is on full display for all to see.

  • alan||

    Pendulum, go blow yourself like the dog you are.

  • ||

    My morality is that i judge people individually for their actions and I don't act joyfully over human tragedy because of the prospect of slandering my political enemies. What is yours?

    And see the posts below. The guy was a fucking loon. His actions have nothing to do with anything but him being a loon.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    So, when someone kills or maims or destroys property, they are not responsible for their own actions?

    Pendulum, you're using the "someone TOLD them to do it' defense. That's lazy thinking right there, dude/ette. Like blaming song lyrics about suicide, as a cause of suicide.

    Face facts, you just *wish* you were right.

  • LiberalGettingAHard-onFromThis||

    Palin and Coulter do not submit to The Wise Council of The Democratic Leadership. Refusing to do so makes one a rebel and a heretic, therefore committing an act of violence.

    Nothing short of True Believer levels of myopia there, assuming its not just a sociopathic asshole using this horrible occasion for the purpose of some seriously fucked up self righteous trolling.

  • Well, in fairness, ||

    "One is the loneliest number"
    made me masturbate more

  • RG||

    Pendulum, anywhere in that brain of yours did it ever occur to you that the solution Palin suggested was the ballot box? Fucking Christ, this board has gone full retard.

  • Bradley||

    Who here said it was an "illegal Mexican"? You're on the wrong website, bro.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Courtesy of the ronpaulforums user: Immortal Technique.

    allegedly Loughner's Youtube page

    Name:Jared Lee LoughnerChannel Views:271Joined:October 25, 2010Website:http://Myspace.com/fallenasleepAbout Me: My name is Jared Lee Loughner! Hometown:TucsonCountry:United StatesSchools:I attended school: Thornydale elementary,Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College.Interests:My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!Movies:(*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)Music:Pass me the strings!Books:I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

  • ||

    He read the Republic and the Meno. Let's round up all the clasicists forthwith.

  • RyanXXX||

    The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kempf, eh?

  • ||

    He doesn't sound like much of a Tea Partier. He sounds like a bullshit college intellectual judging from his taste in reading.

  • RyanXXX||

    Pretty much. His vids on the youtube page are completely nonsensical and boring as well.

  • ||

    Why didn't he just go get tenure teaching political science somewhere?

  • ||

    ...Phantom Toll Booth...

    See? Shitty children's SF made him do it.

  • Ray Pew||

    Sorry, but Rand's "We The Living" will be what many focus on.

  • ||

    You mean reading Rand's least political book makes him an objectivist?

  • johnl||

    The Meno is one of my favorites as well.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    *Is screen-capping and ripping every video and image before the Google-stapo deletes the page*

  • Jeffersonian||

    He's got some good reading in there, you gotta admit, though it doesn't point to a particular strain of political thought (depending on how one reads some of them, it may, however).

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Got a link to Loughner's picture.

    Loughner pic on YFrog

    Myspace has thoroughly scrubbed his page.

  • Rather ||

    AC, why do you think they scrub pages? Myspace are owned by the same parent company has Fox News.

  • ||

    Gosh you're dumb.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Cowardice, avoidance of controversy.

    But most importantly, Rupert Murdoch has nothing better to do with his time than monitor the thousands of idiots who still use Myspace, since, you know, Myspace and FNC are owned by News Corp., therefore they trade notes and carpool to company picnics together.

    Seriously.

  • Ted S.||

    In preparation of their impending bankruptcy. ;-)

  • SIV||

    We The Living

    Anyone up for purging Objectivists?

    Not for any reason related to this incident. I just want to purge Objectivists because they are boring, assholish,boot-licking statists.

  • mr simple||

    The Wizard Of OZ

    I knew it! L. Frank Baum's message is too violent and dangerous. We must use this opportunity to pull his books from the shelves!

  • Jeffersonian||

    It's the enforcement of cartelized labor that's at the core of it...goddamn Lollipop Guild.

  • Rather ||

    She wasn't wearing RED ruby slippers for nothing

  • ||

    Awful.

  • Ted S.||

    Nah, maybe the guy was/is just a gay Judy Garland fetishist.

  • Rick||

    Sad whenever something like this happens to anybody. Some of the comments here make it worse.

  • Robert||

    Would a kiss make it better? X

  • ||

    You define narcissism.

  • Rather ||

    Mirror Mirror, well who is?...I've been waiting for your answer.

  • RyanXXX||

    I really don't understand Balko's commentary. Of course it's tragic when a mother and wife is shot, but I followed the link expecting her to be some liberty-lover or something. Looks like she was just another typical congressional criminal.

    Are the members of a libertarian publication supposed to engage in collective grieving over a congresswoman no one had heard of before?

  • Pendulum||

    Er, what about the 9 year old who was killed?

    What about the undoubted chilling effect upon town halls and political debate, the civil liberties problems and increased government that will result from justifiably increased security for federal legislators and judges, and the decrease in access for citizens to confront their legislators in public?

    We're supposed to be in collective grieving over the next step towards the end of civilized American society - that's why this is so sad, beyond the personal tragedy.

  • ||

    Oh god, concern troll is so concerned. You are fucking hilarious. You are the basest of political opportunists, yet insist that you're not, even when it's absolutely obvious to everyone. Having fun masturbating, buddy? How many times have you jizzed today?

  • robc||

    What chilling effect upon town halls?

    In my state, Im assuming everyone is packing at them already.

  • ||

    Are the members of a libertarian publication supposed to engage in collective grieving over a congresswoman no one had heard of before?

    There's nothing in his post about grieving, just a comment that the shooting is awful. If you don't think a bunch of people getting shot up in a supermarket is awful, that's your opinion; I think/hope that most libertarians won't share that opinion.

  • ||

    http://www.nationalreview.com/.....iel-foster

    Apparently Giffords will survive. And a federal judge was one of the victims.

  • RyanXXX||

    Double kill?

  • RyanXXX||

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  • Please...||

    ...Resist HARDER!

  • ||

    CONGRESSWOMAN SHOT, GUNMAN IN CUSTODY
    Americans eagerly wait to learn which political points get to be scored

    This is exactly why I could give a shit whether she is dead or not. Because the rest of the cocksuckers in office that are still alive are doing just that, "How can I use this tragedy to make sure I stay in power." So fuck them.

  • ||

    Nobody cares what you think.

  • Bradley||

    The defining characteristic of libertarianism is non-aggression. It would be hypocritical (not to mention immoral) for us to be cavalier about the same actions that we criticize the State for taking part in. This shooting is appalling, and I really hope that all the victims recover.

    Unfortunately for us, we are going to get blamed for it. Hell, a large chunk of the educated public already thinks that libertarians, the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, and right-wing militias are the same thing. "Divisive rhetoric", "anti-government extremism", etc etc.

    Even in early reports, you can see this narrative taking shape. It's straight out of Jesse Walker's "paranoid center" article. Short of the guy turning out to be a hardcore Obama supporter, this is landing on our heads.

  • @||

    Had to be a libertarian. They CLAIM to be non-violent, but they listen to Beck and follow his marching orders.

  • ||

    Yeah because Reasonites are all Beck fans. Just shut up and stop polluting the thread.

  • ||

    This is grade A trolling. Congratulations.

  • Jeffersonian||

    This is defining good trolling down, Epi.

  • ||

    SugarFree is usually non-violent, unless I ask him to spank me.

  • nj||

    This is a joke right. Beck is fraud, most on here know that

  • sevo||

    Doubt it.
    @ is an uniformed asshole who probably heard someone talking about Atlas Shrugged and immediately became an expert on libertarianism.
    IOWs, the run-of-the-mill brain-dead.

  • KPres||

    From a girl who knew him in HS:

    "we listened to political punk in high school & agreed with their leftist opinions for the most part Anti-Flag was our band."

    "He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"

    "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

    http://twitter.com/caitieparker

  • Butts Wagner||

    they listen to Beck

    Beck used to be all fun and games, and then he released Seachange, and that's when I knew libertarianism was serious business.

  • Robert||

    Well, let's suppose it does turn out to be a libertarian. Do you think it'd make members of Congress and judges vote libertarian more often, if they think it'd make it less likely they'd be shot?

  • @||

    His YouTube count is full of rantings about "illegals" who "don't speak english".

  • RyanXXX||

    Because we know all libertarians hate immigrants, right? That's, like, our number one issue, man!

  • Bradley||

    And because Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are popular books with libertarians? You're not even trying.

  • Bradley||

    That was, of course, in reply to "@". Fucking threads.

  • Robert||

    Shouldn't books like those be read by libertarians? Maybe not "My Fight", because I've heard that doesn't generalize well, doesn't give you an insight to an ideology, but certainly commie stuff.

  • ||

    Yes, read, but list them as favorites?

    Don't think so.

  • @||

    ...and we all know that liberals are incapable of gun-based violence.

  • nj||

    Motherfucker, this magazine supports open borders ( as do many of the posters here)

  • ||

    Giffords doesn't support open borders.

  • ||

    And Giffords is anti-amnesty and has it all over her web page how tough she is on illegal immigration.

    Gee it is almost as if this guy is crazy or something.

  • ||

    Alleged killer's youtube page?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

  • RyanXXX||

    At least the Virgina Tech guy had the decency to make some entertaining vids

  • mr simple||

    This guy is definitely a D-list crazy. I blame the schools.

  • nj||

    crazy as fuck

  • ||

    Holy shit, he is completely bonkers. It's not surprising, of course; most sane people don't go around shooting people, but damn, this dude (if it is him) is nuttier than a fruitcake.

  • ||

    Come on Episiarch. No one ever does anything without a political reason. There is no such thing as someone just being a fucking nut.

  • ||

    The best part is his concern about grammar, and then his book listing starts with "I had favorite books". Fucking. Priceless.

  • ||

    I shouldn't laugh. This is a tragedy. But that is funny. What is going to be even funnier is watching people jump through hoops trying to prove that he was inspired by Sarah Palin. See it was Palin's irresponsible language that caused this guy to think that the US government is using grammar rules to control our minds.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Already started. Someone at boingboing is suggesting that because she was on Palin's "target map" (or whatever it was called), this screwball read it, was inspired to go shoot Giffords.

    Sarah Palin is the new J.D. Salinger.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Why Palin's target map and not Kos's? It singled out Giffords for termination for not being far-left enough.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Aren't you following the narrative?

    Palin=Strawman VRWC James Bond villain.

    KosKids=Side of righteousness.

    Come on. Get with it.

  • John Hinckley, Jr.||

    Nothing wrong with obsession

  • Mark David Chapman||

    I know, right?

    Shoot one person and everyone starts freaking out.

  • ||

    How fucking pathetic have we become? It used to be that when some nut shot up a grocery store everyone went "damn that guy was a fucking loon". Now we go "that guy must have been part of a well thought out conspiracy perpetrated by my political enemies.

    And we think this guy is nuts.

  • ||

    That's a good point, John. Mass engagement in conspiracy theories based on political affiliation. And you wonder why I hate partisanship so much?

  • Apogee||

    And we think this guy is nuts.

    Agreed. The tortured logic of 'political explanations' is exactly what I would expect from the shooter himself.

  • Robert||

    What's ungrammatic about "I had favorite books"?

  • Rather||

    There isn't if he is referring to the past but the body of his writing is aimless

  • ||

    So his body of writing is essentially as well thought out and as compelling as your blog?

  • Rather ||

    Your argument is an association fallacy but let me write a indubitable statement for you: Ken Spicer is a prick-you can take that one to the bank

  • RyanXXX||

    "All humans are in need of sleep.

    Jared Loughner is a human.

    Hence, Jared Loughner is in need of sleep."

    Jesus Christ

  • Bradley||

    Apparently he was concerned that the US government is brainwashing people through "grammar control". So this is probably the worst ever shooting rampage motivated by descriptive linguistics.

  • ||

    And Mein Kampf as a favourite book. One might say he was a grammar nazi.

  • ||

    You started your first sentence with a conjunction. To the gas chamber! Who's a Nazi now, bitches?

  • ||

    They really should've done an alternate earth Star Trek episode where, post-apocalypse, Strunk and White was worshiped and was the divinely delivered basis of law.

  • ||

    "The Return of the Gerunds"

  • ||

    Gerund is a worship word! You may not speak it!

  • ||

    "You're superlative on one side and comparative on the other."

    "I am superlative on the right side."

    "I fail to see the significant difference."

    "Lokai is comparative on the right side. All of his people are comparative on the right side."

  • Kolohe||

    "To boldly split infinitives as no one has done before!"

  • Rather||

    dbcooper, shame on you for making comment of the day on this solemn occasion

  • ||

    Yeah, that sort of internet fondue is just too tasty to resist though. cf. The golf puns thread.

  • Rather||

    Forgot the ;-) I loved the Cheetah Woods thread too

  • ||

    shouldn't that be prescriptive linguistics?

  • ||

    See, your forth grade teacher was correct when she said she could not "overstress the importance of grammar." Because bad grammar kills!

  • affenkopf||

    Favorite books on his youtube profile include Ayn Rand's We the Living, the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.

    He's a libertarian, communist, neo nazi. I knew it!

  • Jeffersonian||

    I've seen a wacky Youtube page from a guy named Jared, but he spelled his name differently from what is being reported. Is it the same guy?

  • ||

    Have seen the killer reporter as both "Laughner" and "Loughner."

  • Jeffersonian||

    Everything I've seen says it's "Laughner." Maybe Jared Loughner is just a different kook in Tuscon.

  • Jeffersonian||

    oops...now comes another AP story spelling it as "Loughner." It may be the same nutlog.

    Damn, there goes the new currency I was hoping for.

  • Max||

    All those good folks packing guns in Arizona must not know how to use them if this guy managed to get off 18 shots. Could some of the shots have been "friendly fire"?

  • RyanXXX||

    Whatever, dude

  • Mr. FIFY||

    This has to be a Max spoof post.

  • Robert||

    Now see, if I were him, I'd've brought allies to pretend to be shooting at me, but actually shooting at other people in the crowd. And it would all be secretly about the 9 YO, the rest of the violence being distracting cover so nobody who didn't need to know would know our real motiv'n. And the Congresslady would've been in on it too, except she'd've been told falsely that the rounds were to be blanks.

  • Liberal Douchebag||

    This wouldn't have happened if we had higher taxes and more government!

  • Bradley||

    Not cool.

  • @||

    Yes, cool. I totally agree.

  • shrike||

    Shooter HAD to be a Christ-fag.

  • Wonketteer||

    TRUCKNUTZ!

  • Ed Schultz Fan Club||

    All thirty-seven of us agree!

  • ||

    shrike|1.8.11 @ 4:32PM|#

    Shooter HAD to be a Christ-fag.

    Nope...his youtube video's show him to be an atheist.

  • DemocraticUnderground||

    We agree. No liberal EVER commits violence.

  • LiberalGettingAHard-onFromThis||

    But now we are perfectly excused because it is in self defense!

  • Earth Liberation Front||

    *cough*

  • Black Bloc||

    tee-hee!

  • Weathermen Underground ||

    Hello!

  • Weather Underground||

    They had it coming!!

  • New Black Panther Party||

    We ain't done yet!

  • Symbionese Liberation Army||

    We are. Shit.

  • Jerry||

    What are the chances that Pfizer gets sued when they find that this kid was high on antidepressants?

  • Slut Bunwalla||

    Doesn't Pfizer get sued, like, every day anyway?

  • Jeffersonian||

    I sued them for not giving me one of those four-hour erections.

  • Michael Scott||

    And females around the world rejoice.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Three ways this could go:

    1. Shooter was a pissed-off, mentally-deranged Republican.

    2. Shooter was a pissed-off, mentally-deranged Democrat.

    3. Shooter was just fucking insane.

    I'd give all three even odds. Takers?

  • ||

    Wrong, dude. 100% chance that he will be called a "libertarian", no matter what he believed in.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I left that choice out on purpose, because the odds he was/is/ever was a libertarian are many decimal points past zero.

    I know, I know... to the Ed Schultz Wing, the shooter probably voted for Ron Paul. But let's not give the Teams any more anti-libertarian bullshit than they already have in their playbooks.

  • ||

    Anything that he has ever spoken, done, read, or walked within 15 feet of that can be remotely connected to "libertarianism" will become proof positive that he is one. I'd love to be wrong, but I'd practically bet money on it at this point.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    You're right. I wish you weren't, though.

    However, libertarianism is like playing the Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon thought-exercise game... "Hey, libertarians eat cereal, and the shooter ate cereal, and Timothy McVeigh ate cereal... so, quid pro quo!"

  • ||

    CEREAL KILLER

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I wasn't gonna go for the easy bad pun, Epi... thanks for doing it for me.

  • ||

    Wrong, dude. 100% chance that he will be called a "libertarian", no matter what he believed in.

    I think he was a libertarian or at least a proto-libertarian...(at 22 i have a hard time anyone at that age had any real political beliefs that were not transigent by nature) and an atheist to boot.

    he was also a nut job who thought the government was using mind control on us.

  • Bradley||

    Isn't #3 essentially a given at this point?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Possibly, but sometimes people just do shit while not being insane.

  • Jeffersonian||

    If it's the guy who produced these baffling videos, I'm going with #3.

  • Robert||

    Really? Betting on #1 & #2 at the same time is like betting on red & black in roulette. And there are a lot more green numbers in voter enrollment than there are in roulette.

  • ||

    (Tparty volunteer humbble opinion): Hhhhhhhmmmmm... sudden mailbombings, now to the INTERNATIONAL SUPPOSEDLY WR ON TERROR AUTHORITIES KNOWING AS BHO WHEN 8Y/O EYERS WAS A TERRORIST, ALINSKI, PLAN, INFILTRATION
    Arizona invasion threatened by The Anerican People 2010 election FEDERAL H O L Y LAW ENFORCEMENT TERRITORY, NOT A PRESI-lawyer for the enemy, MY OPINION: AN INSURGENT CAN JUST SHOOT IN THE NAME "OF TPARTIES, THE POPE, ETC,", IF THEY HAVE THE BHO MINDED LOGISTICS... ACORN WILL BE BAILEDOUT, EVEN CUBA!!, Iraq under suicide increasing attacks, "suddently" lasts few months... acorn kind of brained (preds I denounce protected by police belong to that "imaginary gayjails on the terror sodomic infiltrated system, visible if have any G A Y torturing, if "only death or simple torturing, even little abuse"... you see, PARTS OF A SYSTEM INSIDE "THE SYSTEM", end harry: acusing Sheriff D'Arpio by COYOTE INSURGENCY+BHO WH$ (laweyer$, "black", CO MU NIS TIC, TE RROR PRE FFE RED INSTEAD OF BUSH, A MOSES's BURNING BUSH COMPARING TO YOU BHO WH AND, YOUR NATURE CULTURE, THE ANTI-PEOPLE LIKE ME NEED TO POWER THE VOLUME TO INVADE... AS A SOCIAL SICKENE$$ USING POWER, you know what?
    tedpalpatine, UN$addam, alzarkawi, etc, they know "now some, of it"...

  • Bradley||

    Hints for writing a spambot: don't use InfoWars.com as source text.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Now that they have Jared safely behind bars, they can toss the net over one more gibbering nutlog.

  • Almanian||

    This gets by the spam filter? Really?

  • Max||

    If every fucking one of the folks in that shopping mall had been packing heat, a lot more Democrats might be dead.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Hey, if you're gonna do a Max spoof, at least make it sound credible.

  • Max||

    The crowd was full of libtards.

    Tough talkers, but they only crap all over themselves when the fighting starts.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Go fuck yourself, Max.

  • So...||

    ...you're okay with potentially dozens of people opening fire in a crowd, Max?

  • @||

    From the assassin:

    In conclusion, reading the United States Constitution, I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.No! I won't pay debt backed with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver!

    A big Ron Paul fan it seems.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Fuck off, @.

  • jacob||

    But why should he? Fine, this assasin is a Ron Paul fan. I'm a huge Ron Paul fan and I don't consider this guy to be representative of me or the others who like Ron Paul.

    Whining about someone pointing out facts makes you look worse, not the other person.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    You DO realize why @ and his ilk are trying to bring Ron Paul into this, right?

  • sevo||

    "A big Ron Paul fan it seems."
    You are one truly stupid fuck. Paul doesn't favor gold-backed currency, asshole.
    You probably ought to read about those who don't follow your brain-dead political leanings somewhere other than the "COMIX!" section of the magazine rack.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Here, I think you need this.

    Association fallacy

    Don't say I never did anything for you.

  • yonemoto||

    ...most ron paul fans would be happy to pay debt back with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver, they just don't want to receive debts in a currency that's not backed by gold and silver.

  • @||

    Oh, and he says Community College reciving federal funding is "unconstitutional".

  • Jeffersonian||

    Where does he say this, @?

  • ||

    If you're referring to his "Pina Community College" video, no he doesn't.

    He writes a lot of incoherent faux-syllogisms about "unconstitutional"-this and "fraud"-that. That's all. It's a bunch of confused, half-baked nonsense. Purporting to take some clear message from it is an irresponsible leap on your part.

  • Jeffersonian||

    His beef seems to be with money not being backed by gold and silver anymore which, when you read A1S10 of the Constitution, isn't as crazy as it seems. Ventilating a Congresscritter over it is, however.

  • ||

    His beef seems to be with money not being backed by gold and silver anymore which, when you read A1S10 of the Constitution, isn't as crazy as it seems.

    Well, sure. He doesn't trust currency not backed by gold and silver. He also doesn't "trust in God." He also doesn't trust the overlords who are "controlling our grammar."

    He seems to believe a whole bunch of different things, much of it expressed illogically and incoherently. Which is why I'm going to fight like hell when the @'s of the world purport to extract some clear philosophical motivation from this guy and stick him into some simple, familiar political box.

    @ wants to be able to pinpoint a few familiar-looking characteristics and use them to smear by association. "Hmm, looks like he didn't like federal school funding -- he's a regular Joe Libertarian!"

  • @||

    He's a big GOOOOOOOOOOOOLD bug.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    So?

  • False equivalency||

    A big Ron Paul fan it seems.

    Therefore, all Ron Paul fans are future assassins.

  • SPLC||

    Works for us!

  • Morris Dees||

    And remember, keep those contributions coming...that pool doesn't clean itself!

  • sevo||

    Problem is @'s assumption he's a Paul fan is flawed to begin with; Paul doesn't favor metal-backed currency.
    So we have world-class conclusion-jumping based on the wrong premise:
    Fail, fail.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Really? I thought RP was a gold bug...not true?

  • sevo||

    Seems he's pretty sure a sound currency would end up based on some metal, but his point is to allow currencies to compete:
    http://libertymaven.com/2010/0.....-act/8882/

  • ||

    The assassin is all about competing currencies as well.

    he has a whole thing about people making their own currencies on his youtube video

  • ||

    I think he might be a big Kenny G fan too. Ergo, all Kenny G fans are future assassins.

  • ||

    Ah, right, the media circus that is going to set up camp around this tragedy will focus on the killer's political orientation. Because that's so goddam important.

  • Matt||

    "Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society."

    I agree, but how about acts and threats of violence against people who AREN'T public officials, John?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    When you aren't doing your patriotic duty, like paying your taxes, supporting a single-payer healthcare system, being touched by the Stimulus, then acts and threats of violence against you as a citizen are perfectly justifiable.

    But against public officials? That's simply beyond the pale. Peasants should never raise a hand against their betters.

    /sarcasm

  • ||

    Since government uses acts of violence against civilians every day, Boehner obviously mentioned public officials for a reason.

    It's okay to throw people in jail for victimless crimes, molest people in airports, bomb the fuck out of countries, taser teenage girls, kill grandfathers during drug raids, work hard to limit liberties every single day and so on.

    Obviously, if somehow the roles would be reversed for a change because someone finally snapped, that would just be completely unacceptable in our society.

    We didn't agree on mindless violence possibly being a two-way street.
    That was the point that Boehner was just trying to make.

  • ||

    Ah!, the attack under the attack as Helm's Deep's gate (mind, psycology, terror, system...): Alzadr, had the "dessirable media mind theater of ops" and all the s(BEEP)t tedpalpatine and fidel just planned and did for 30 years...
    ted came to Miami to literaly KILL EXILEDS. marielS, no embargo, no rest for the oppositor against fidelandia, no allied anti-terror anyhow fighters (I'm better being backinjuried seriously, writting and blow neolibships off the MIND OF THE PEOPLE, INTELECTUALY, IDEAS ARE TO BE DESTRYED NOT PHYSSYCALY KILLING (IF THERE IS NO WAR OR TERRORIST, COYOTEINSURGET OR SUICIDE BOMBER,
    I think if I'm threatened physsicaly I may try "more than just pray for big things", and blabla..
    anyways, ALZARD IS BACK GUYS (AND gays), SO WEE NEED TO SHOOT ANY OF HIS ARMIES IF NECESARY, NOT PHYSSICALY shot a human being who is not even armed, and a democrat, "who was dead for some time", hhhmmmm!, quick drivebymedia bailedout characteri$tic?
    I think I'm trying to have some time pre-writedown and edit some text, so it sounds more... polited, "clearer" (for the ring$ of... fired public figure$... from Morgov, on 2010 (Pelenor BATTLE LOTR "actual" war time)
    So the coyoteinvasion "just" eliminates selected population and replaced THOSE SPACES with coyote cultural civilian ARMY INVADDING, rinoliphants, neolibticals, more than orc$ oops, orgs like acorn, aclu... drivebymedia, coyotesantuaries, bailedout blogging...
    yes, I have more... just ask, I'm a frm IRAQ WAR BLOGGER too...
    "nothing, according to neolibland, with a celestial impact DAY D+2 (I use Jan 6th Dday "calendar", what's on D Day +... 12?...

  • Bradley||

    Anyone who thinks they can nail down a political affiliation from the guy's crazy ramblings is welcome to try: http://animalnewyork.com/2011/.....pace-page/.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    From his YouTube videos:

    "I will not trust in God!"

    So I guess he's not one of those "Christianists" we've all been warned about. I hope his beagles can cheer him up, because Andrew Sullivan is going to be sad.

  • Andrew S||

    No I'm not; his accomplice was baby Trig

  • @||

    Let's see:

    He's big on gun rights, he wants the currency to be backed by gold and silver, and has issues with immigrants and "unconstitutional" community colleges and police forces.

  • ||

    You've got him sussed out, do ya? OK, so now tell us: What does it all mean? What is the Important Overgeneralizing Lesson we should all be taking from this?

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Troll harder. Atheist flag-burner who likes the Communist Manifesto, and a high school friend describes him as a far-left liberal. U mad, bro?

    twitter: caitieparker

  • sevo||

    Hey! @'s making a fine living picking cherries!

  • Jeffersonian||

    The only thing that I see any support for is the gold and silver issue, @, where do you get the rest?

  • yonemoto||

    on his youtube page one of his favorite books is "the communist manifesto"

  • @||

    He also has an Ayn Rand book on it.

  • ||

    We the Living is fairly non-political. It's a somewhat autobiographical novel about a woman living in Stalinist Russia.

  • Steve||

    Sadly, "We the Living" was her best book...she should have stopped writing fiction after that.

  • Six||

    Clearly you did not read the book. To say it is 'non-political' is not accurate in the least. The 'love story' was told as a backdrop to illustrate her views on communism and collectivism - which were not kind to say the least.

  • RyanXXX||

    He also hates "property owners", dipshit

  • Bradley||

    And he seemed to be mad that he wasn't given a job or public housing.

    Looking for consistency in this guy's views is stupid.

  • ||

    his political orientation is a literal gold mine. At least a few billon are allready earmarked just for coverage of this aspect.

    Imagine the legal fee's, regulatory fines, and just plain internet fun to be had over all this?

  • ||

    At least a few billon are allready earmarked just for coverage of this aspect.

    That makes it a metaphorical gold mine.

  • hurrr||

    Boo-fucking-hoo.

  • MNG||

    This is a tragic event.

    We don't know what led this guy to do what he did so speculating is a waste of time at this point. On the general point of overheated rhetoric I would say that calling fellow citizens who happen to disagree with you Hitler and talking about "them" taking the nation from "us" is conducive to political violence, but when you care about politics you are going to frame things in harsh ways sometimes.

    It is nice to see the GOPers around here go out and find people ascribing political blame so that they can castigate such people as stupid blaming liberals and hyper-partisans and engage in rapid, earnest counter-spin to the charge that conservative rhetoric did this.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    "It is nice to see the GOPers around here go out and find people ascribing political blame so that they can castigate such people as stupid blaming liberals and hyper-partisans and engage in rapid, earnest counter-spin to the charge that conservative rhetoric did this."

    I don't have to "go out and" do anything. "@" came to me.

    You're just upset that this guy's a Communist-Manifesto-reading, flag-burning atheist. You can't possibly pin this on the right, and that has made you very, very, very sad.

  • @||

    Funny, he also likes Ayn Rand.

    He's "favorite book" list is just the books everyone has to read in college freshman year.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Give it up, dude. You've been screaming all day about how this guy's obviously a right-winger. Now we have a reading list that's politically ambiguous at best, and we know that he's a flag-burning atheist, and we have a high school friend who's describing him as being on the ultra-left.

    Until you've got something to show that this guy's not on the left, shut the fuck up.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Add to that Media Matters is urging people not to draw political conclusions from this, and things begin to come into focus...

  • Mr. FIFY||

    MediaMorons, NOT drawing political conclusions? W a fuckin' laugh riot.

  • ||

    Dude, a lot of commenters read opposing view points. Many of those are taking the blame game to 11. It's quite vulgar. Accordingly, the will be displeased by this and comment on it.

    Nice try though ...

  • Window Cleaner||

    Sorry, Mr. Guy, but just keep your money. There is not enough brushes in the world to wipe off the sanctimonious bullshit caked on the windows of your glass house.

  • ||

    I NOTICED JEFFERSONIAN&Co;
    so... now you rule as your kind did to urbanconservative end?, as e-police AT THE DOORWAY TO the commenting window?, who the frak you thing is going to dare to blog pacefully here?, who?, a "just a "crazy rightwingernutTbagger?" to... just blogging against THE MACHINE? while neolibtic bailedout ("smart easy thinking, prosperous") acts of war blogging threatens?, and you sound you are enjoing your own (version) of fighting, and... "ends" dessired... to us?...
    no,
    You are orbiting a green moon of ENDoor... and Tparties ridding against RINOliphants and more then orc$, oops, org$, Tparties comming in as a Tea leaves over the soil tsunami, after a NOV 2010's deep 1st impact...
    A moon of Endoor filled out with Conservative intelectual ... forests... where the Tparty and other movements share under the peace and genetic thoughts of the giant trees, their symbyotic ideals... not sesamestreetmickeyacorn TEDdy walking 80s tec limitations bears (Ewoks, if I remember well)...

  • ||

    Does anyone have a crazy-to-English dictionary handy? I need a translation of this.

  • hmm||

    It's not helping.

  • Jeffersonian||

    It sez: I was hit in the head as a child.

  • Rather||

    Andew S,
    It says: don't be stupid enough to give your real name and email address when making a remark about someone who is redrumish

  • ||

    Mayor Tom to groundcontrol:
    Jaffers(beep)t&Co;, who I remember well from "is the Teaparty done? e-stocking) ARE orbiting a green moon of ENDoor... and Tparties ridding against RINOliphants and more then orc$, oops, org$, Tparties comming in as Tea leaves over the soil tsunami, after a NOV 2010's deep 1st impact...

  • ||

    Well at least he's a David Bowie fan.

  • Jeffersonian||

    He's looking for FAME, FAMe, FAme, Fame, fame...

  • Ted S.||

  • SIV||

    Ewok home-planet reference FTW!

    Doo-da-doo-da-doo...YUB!YUB!

  • ||

    Jeffers(bbep)t,

  • @||

    His "favorite book" list is just a trainwreck of stuff people have to read in college freshman year. How else do you explain Ayn Rand and the Communist Manifesto on the same page?

  • Jeffersonian||

    Wow, what college is assigning Rand these days?

  • @||

    Well, I had to read "Anthem" senior year in high school English class and that was quite some time ago.

  • Jeffersonian||

    Sweet. It must be on your favorite book list then, yes?

  • @||

    Maybe if I was a 21 year old trying to sound "intellectual".

    Though Anthem is the best Ayn rand book. It says what Atlas Shrugged says without being longer than the bible and having rape scenes.

  • Bradley||

    The Bible had some of the best rape scenes of all time.

  • Kanye||

    OF ALL TIME

  • ||

    I'd go with Ovid's 'Metamorphoses' for greatest (and most numerous) rape scenes of all time, personally.

  • Brian||

    Something we can all agree on. The rape content of Rand is disturbing and just plain bad erotica.

  • ||

    It's not that clear that it's rape, that it's not consensual.

  • Rather ||

    so there is rape, rape rape, date rape and now "not that clear that it's rape" rape...I need a drink.

  • ||

    Considering that this a fictional event, what does any of that have to do with this? Why don't you go read the scene we're talking about, so you can actually add to this discussion, blogwhore?

  • Brett L||

    I had to read Atlas Shrugged for a seminar course on how railroads and dynamos changed America. But mostly because my prof was a MechE with a steam train fetish who thought Reardon Steel was the shit and ought to be real.

  • ||

    Mein Kampf is required reading?

  • @||

    Nobody ever reads that turgid screed, really. Not even the Nazis themselves did. But it can make you look "intellectual" if you put it on your "favorite book" list.

  • Jeffersonian||

    He's got Gulliver's Travels on the list, too. Maybe he capped her when he discovered she wasn't a Houyhnhnm.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Oh, shit. Better alert Jack Black, he might be getting a visit from the Secret Service.

  • Jeffers(beep)t&Co;||

    whatever, why they can "just" come and debate and say f(beep)k, just because?, why does bho still thinks (after Nov10, and bay the way, after 9-11) he won't have a tedpalpatinek END, harry, did you read? so you'll enjoy your power over people like me... as a neolibtic narniasnowwitch said before they went to the enemy to (cheap)trick us": and by tomorrow... we will take Narnia.. forever...
    (too) Many Narnia snowwitches... under the globalwarming war on occident

  • Jeffersonian||

    Not even Alex Jones is this batshit crazy.

  • ||

    Someone took one too many crazy pills.

  • ||

    You can say that again.

  • ||

    Someone took one too many crazy pills.

  • ||

    Of course the Kos kiddies lost no time applying the Rahm Rule: let no crisis go to waste. It's the fault of teh Tea Party, teh Gun Nuts, teh Sarah Palin, blah blah blah. How heartless; couldn't they at least let the dead be buried before they started that shit?

  • sevo||

    "Of course the Kos kiddies lost no time applying the Rahm Rule:..."
    @'s been here trying to hang it on Palin; traction's tough to come by for your fave evil-doer when the guy's as crazy as he seems to be.

  • Bradley||

    This is fascinating. I think we're witnessing aliens learn English by reading only conspiracy websites.

  • Intrepid Demise||

    Is this the internet trying to become self-aware?

  • VoteMuslimNoPork||

    The news keeps asking for a reduction of rhetoric and what not ... this guy was an incoherent nut who was most likely a lefty (if anything at all) ... political rhet is not to blame for this event ...

  • ||

    couldn't they at least let the dead be buried before they started that shit?

    Now you're just being silly.

  • ||

    I understand that I'm being unrealistic. That doesn't stop me from being utterly disgusted.

  • ||

    Wounds my heart with a monotonous langour.

    John has long mustache...

    Now if congress critters start droping left and right snap some ip's

  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    Unfortunate name for the local Tucson tv station. KGUN9

  • ||

    I'm surprised nobody has brought Wikileaks into this, yet. But maybe I missed it.

  • VoteMuslimNoPork||

    How would they? That seems like a random ass connection ...

  • ||

    So random... it just might work!!!

  • Max||

    "Violent right-wing anti-government rhetoric had nothing to so with it."
    --- Pretend leftwinger, Jesse Walker

  • ||

    Says pretend sane person Max

  • Jeffersonian||

    Wait, when did Max pretend to be sane?

  • ||

    Well he at least tried, give him an award for participation.

  • ||

    Huh?

  • ||

    SOMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAA!

    I'm thirsty.

    Soooooo thiiiiirsteeeeeeeeee.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    You can find something to DRINK! if you travel down that roooooaaaaaadddd!
    over there.

  • ||

    Somalia is a Muslim libertarian paradise.

    You drink there and you may be killed for it.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I was mixing two of Reasonoid's favorite metaphors.

  • Barack Obama||

    I think this episode teaches us all that the tenor needs to be calmed down. And by that I mean, shut the fuck up if you disagree with me.

  • Christ opher||

    Can't we just go back to the 80's and blame everything on heavy metal music?

  • Robert||

    How does this tie in with the mail smoke bombs?

  • sevo||

    "How does this tie in with the mail smoke bombs?"
    People say nasty things about that hag Pelosi = mail bombs.
    Or something.

  • ||

    This is very sad and disturbing, but the first thing that occurs to me that this will be just another excuse to attack gun rights.

  • ||

    DING DING DING! WE HAVE A FRIGGIN' WINNER!

  • Xenocles||

    This, or freedom of speech. Actually, we're already seeing that.

  • Seer||

    Don't forget warrantless surveillance of Americans because of their political activity.

  • Seer||

    Don't forget warrantless surveillance of Americans because of their political activity.

  • ||

    Why don't we check bho&Comunities; language of fight, bho, why newblackpantyers, hammas, elche on your 08 Campaign site deep into the election?...
    and... by the way, why deleted them? are'n't you "wright"?
    ok, tonight, I'm praying against all of you acornorcs, rinoliphant, neolibtical govcylon $ith$ plague

  • Slut Bunwalla||

    There seem to be two main narratives going now, based on things I'm seeing on facebook, twitter, and news site comments:

    1. the guy was a rightwing nutjob libertarian milita type
    and/or
    2. he was crazy and therefore easily influenced by "violent rhetoric" (for which republicans/libertarians are, of course, solely responsible)

    Very few people seem to be saying that hey, maybe he was just crazy and this really isn't anyone else's fault. And everybody seems to be trying to make sure that Palin's target map thing is tied in with this.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    #1 is the preferred narrative. That's what the left pushed hard first, but now it looks like that's not going to work out, so the left will have to fall back to #2. Under no circumstances will they tolerate a mirror image of #1.

  • sevo||

    "Under no circumstances will they tolerate a mirror image of #1."

    For very good reason; those on the left hardly ever engage in solitary behavior of any sort.
    The left's violence is either riots (i.e, Greece, Ireland or the 'protests' against global trade), or the violence is performed by government employees directed by the left (i.e, Stalin, et al).
    The left's violence is far more deadly, but far more impersonal.

  • hurrr||

    You guys seem to be exercising what you're criticising.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Nope. I'm not trying to pin this on the left. I'm not in the business of placing blame of scoring political points when someone commits a heinous act.

    But the left spent all day trying to tell us that this guy was Trig Palin's real father. I'm just pushing back, and warning them that if they want to play "Which Political Party is Responsible For This," the answer is Team Blue.

  • durp||

    You're doing it again. Team Blue is not "the left".

  • XM||

    The guy probably included Ayn Rand's work (Atlus Shrugged, I assume) only because he heard it was an "anti government" literature. It's impossible for a committed right wing / libertarian terrorist to include Atlas Shrugged and Commie Manifesto in his fave reading list.

    I think it's time for libertarians (preferably John Stossel, who actually had a TV audience) to publish another "are scaring ourselves to death" piece. Rapes, porno invasion, crimes by illegal aliens, waves of violent hate crime, wild west gun sprees - all either rare or non existent.

  • ||

    It looks to me like he liked utopian and dystopian political works.

  • XM||

    has

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Oh, look! Insane fucktard Alan Grayson weighs in:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....06271.html

    Well, at least he's out of a job.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    My heart goes out to Mark Kelly, Gabby's husband, and the many, many people who love her. Gabby, we don't want to lose you. Please stay here with us.

    Not a kind word to spare for Judge John Roll, who was killed. I guess if you aren't a member of Grayson's tribe (Team Blue Congresscritters), he doesn't give a shit.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    I'm surprised he was so kind to Gabby, who is marginally not Team Blue enough to suit fucktards like Grayson. Hell, she's a "blue dog"!

  • menshivik||

    There are two kinds of assholes. Those who use tragic events for political purposes and those who take a dump on tragic events for political purposes.

  • pete||

    Agreed. There's a time to set aside one's political stripes and connect to something on just a human level. Both the liberals who are crying "Palin did it" and the Epsiarchs of the world, fuck off. As for the latter, it might be "honest" to say, "I don't care about politicians" or "you didn't know her, so you don't either," but I also didn't know the people in the World Trade Center on 9/11 or any other tragic event. That doesn't mean I can't be horrified by the violence of the event and not wish anyone else to die a violent painful death. That argument probably wouldn't carry wait with someone like Epi or Corning, but for people like this, then at least look at what might matter to you, if you can't relate on a human level: advancing liberty; if you care at all about advancing that cause, do you think your honest callousness helps advance or retard that cause?

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    I've got an alternative narrative for any liberal fucks who want to politicize this shit:

    "Republican Federal Judge, four others murdered; Democratic Congresswoman wounded. Shooter reportedly is a far-left flag-burning atheist."

  • Miller||

    It turns out the shooter was a hippy liberal.

    Out of respect for the dead child, I'll try to restrain my glee.

  • ||

    From the ABC new report about the shooter.

    "A former classmate of Loughner's told ABC News he was extremely political in high school, but not radical. The classmate said Loughner once met Giffords in 2007 and said he thought the congresswoman was "unintelligent."

    Ladies and gentleman lets play "Guess that Party". He was "political". I love that. If he had been a Republican or a Libertarian, that would have been the lead paragraph. But he is a Democrat and a liberal, so it is buried in the second page and listed as "political". Assholes.

  • Robert||

    But "political in high school" could mean very competitive in student elections, etc., and have no cx with politics in the outside world.

  • Barack Obama quote||

    They bring a knife to the fight.

    We bring a gun.

  • ||

    I came here intending to talk about how the media was going to try to falsely paint this as the fault of libertarians et al...and the first thing greeting me was Episiarch and Joshua Corning vying for who could make the most outrageous, inhuman comment about Rep. Gifford's shooting. That's certainly not going to help our image, people.

  • Warty||

    Fuck off. Did you expect us to give a shit about some shitbag politician? Feel bad for the little girl.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    I feel badly for anyone who is murdered, and the people who love them.

  • ||

    If you don't give a shit, maybe you should find another thread to post in. The fact that you and your pals are beating us over the head with your apathy only demonstrates that you're not apathetic at all; indeed, that you are somewhat glad that a "shitbag politician" finally got what was coming to her.

    And that makes you a truly disgusting creature.

  • Warty||

    Oh, no, Tulpa thinks I'm disgusting. You can't comprehend my contempt for you, you over-concerned fuck. Go fuck yourself.

  • ||

    Actually Warty, you are pretty disgusting. You and Epi and Josh Corning all fall into the same category of somebody who is smart enough to be a libertarian but not wise enough or emotionally/socially aware enough to know how to relate to other people or to how properaly react to a tragic event. i don't think any of the three of you truly believe what you are writing. I think you're immature pseudo-intellectuals who are trying to seem above it all and avoid seeming to have empathy because you think it might make you look uncool in some way. The only other alternative is that you truly don't care about the fact that a human being was shot and may die and that makes you a sociopath. And then, when called on it, you react by telling people to go fuck themselves rather than apologizing or just backing off. grow up, warty.

  • ||

    You forgot about me. You see, if a person is a member of congress, I start with the rebuttable presumption that they are a piece of shit that probably rarely gets what they deserve.

  • ||

    Then you are a simplistic fool, Troy. Get out of your basement and go meet some people in the real world. If you play it smooth, they won't be as mean to you as they were in high school.

  • ||

    I've met a lot of people in the real world cocksucker, I am not impressed.

  • yonemoto||

    collectivist.

  • durp||

    "... or how to properly react ..."
    "... and that makes you a sociopath."
    "... you react by telling people to go fuck themselves rather than apologizing ..."

    Aren't we lucky that you're not in charge.

  • ||

    Swede for the win. It's good to know that there are a few adults left at this site. Most have bailed in disgust.

  • hurp da durp||

    Yes, when others express opinions that don't make you want to smash your head in with a hammer - because of all the drama - it must mean that they are not "adults".

  • ||

    The fact that you and your pals are beating us over the head with your apathy only demonstrates that you're not apathetic at all

    This is bullshit. I am not beating you over the head for your sympathy.

    I accept that you have different values then I do. Why can't you tolerate mine?

    Plus i want to explore this shit. Why do i have apathy while you have sympathy.

    I also wanted to have this discussion when 9/11 happened. I had the same apathy for that event as well....perhaps i am simply apathetic to the death of strangers and it has nothing to do with politics.

    But i am not some monster or trying to be cool or some bullshit you are trying to tag to me.

    I feel different about this then you do. I would like to discuss why and how this is true. but if that disgusts you then i suggest you get off this thread or at least change your bullshit higher then thou attitude.

  • ||

    I accept that you have different values then I do. Why can't you tolerate mine?

    Your moral relativism is disgusting.

  • ||

    I would love to have this discussion, Joshua! First of all, I am talking about empathy, not sympathy. Nobody is asking you to demonstrate sympathy (or asking you to do anything at all, for that matter, but you and epi started this conversation with your outlandish statements, so here we are). Empathy, however, means something totally different. This is not just splitting hairs; the two words mean very different things. Sympathy means that you feel directly emotionally affected by the event. in other words "I am really and truly sad that Giffords got shot." Empathy means that you may not persnanlly feel sad or care about the event at all, but you can understand why others might feel sad and you can understand why it is a sad event. Being empathetic means you relate to the event like a normal human being would. You and epi, however, come right out and state in no uncertain terms that not only do you not feel empathy for the congresswoman and her family, but you activily dislike her enough to go out of your way to write "fuck the politician" when you could have just not said anything at all (didn't your mother ever teach you the old adage "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?"). So, my problem with a guy like you, corning, is that you go out of your way to demonstrate how unempathetic you are, which clinically makes you a sociopath IF you truly felt the way you say you do. However, I have a feeling that you don't truly feel that way but just want to seem like a tough guy online who writes what you write for the shock value and to, in some weird way, seem "cool" and above it all. Either way, I feel sorry for you. Is that clear enough for you? I seriously want to know. Please respond. I would love to have an adult conversation with you about this, so go ahead an respond to this comment when you have a chance.

  • Ray Pew||

    So, my problem with a guy like you, corning, is that you go out of your way to demonstrate how unempathetic you are, which clinically makes you a sociopath IF you truly felt the way you say you do.

    This constant charge of "sociopathic" is absurd. People feel empathy and sympathy based on their valuations, which don't always correlate with yours.

    The typical neo-con feels little empathy with Muslims killed in the War or falsely imprisoned. Read the comments on any article dealing with a person wrongly shot during a drug raid and you will see numerous posts lacking any empathy or sympathy towards the victim, because they rationalize cops with "noble defenders of the peace" and the victim as "guilty" of something.

    Epi and Joshua are about as sociopathic as every other person in society.

  • hurp da durp||

    "tough guy"
    "sociopath"
    "immature"

    I'm gonna start calling you a whiny bitch, just because you keep repeating that.

  • ||

    So are you angry at the crassness of the commenters or the fact that they weren't discussing your ancillary concerns about libertarian's public image? Either way your pseudo mourn-fest is pathetic.

    People that are known and loved die every day, sometimes in horrible and public ways. The publicness doesn't make this any worse or more worthy of people's (faked, I would argue) concern and consideration.

    Do we all sit around and have a sobfest when a couple hundred kids are killed in Iraq, or how about for the hundred people that died in automobile accidents today? Nope, but if you put the shit on teevee and sprinkle it with some faux outrage and red/blue pontificating then we are all 'victims' of some far away tragedy.

    By the way who do you think won Epi, or Corning?

  • ||

    No one here is asking for a sobfest, so extinguish your hay-dude.

    I don't recall anyone making a point of coming here and posting "Fuck Iraqi Civilians!" in a thread about civilian deaths in Iraq. But then again, there's a value in letting people like Epi, Warty, and Corning show their true colors too.

  • ||

    Events like these turn the whole world into a giant pulsating concern troll, and I can understand how that would bring out the inner imp in some.

    I know the rules, and I think that they are arbitrary and pointless. Someone dies on teevee and we are supposed to pin a ribbon on our lapel, put away our sense of humor, and show "concern". Where is my dour faced emoticon? But, and this is a huge but, only if they die on the teevee.

    Think about it, how many threads about Iraqi civilian deaths have there actually been, and did they get 500+ comments?

  • ||

    Well, when massive numbers of Iraqi civilian deaths were novel, there were quite a few intense threads on that topic here as I recall. After a few months of triple-digit death totals at least once a week, the subject became passe. I expect the same would hold true if congressmembers were getting shot every week.

    There's also the fact that the people commenting here are spread out over a wide geographical area, so unless something is reported on nationally (or here on Reason) most of the readers won't be familiar with the story. I have plenty of opinions about that story here in PGH where the woman decided to smoke crack instead of taking her dying baby to the emergency room, but it would be inappropriate for me to bring them up here since most people haven't heard of the story.

    But the point remains, Episiarch and Mr Corning's comments do not resemble humor in any sense of the word. They are expressions of deeply-held belief, which they expected their fellow commenters to agree with (and unfortunately they were largely right about that).

  • ||

  • ||

    I heard about that, and like this shooting it is another terrible event. But, I am not going to act like I mourn more than thee in a thinly disguised ploy for moral superiority.

  • ||

    Well good for you. I don't think the degree of public mourning is correlated with moral fiber either.

    Making a point of saying that you don't give a shit about someone dying because you don't like their profession is a different story.

  • ||

    Exactly Tulpa! It's one thing to say that publically professing sadness over somebody you don't know is gauche. fine. that's within the bounds of normal social intercourse. But to go out of your way like Epi and Josh Corning and Warty to literally write "fuck the politician" just shows a tremendous lack of maturity and grace. they're tools, pure and simple.

  • ||

    This thread would make a fine recruiting tool for future Reason cruises.

    Spend a fun-filled week aboard the Moral Relativist with fellow anonymous scumbags "Warty," "Episiarch" and "Joshua Corning!" Taunt the families of dead politicians! Swap Star Trek Convention stories! Enter the hilarious "Fuck You!" contest and play "Spot The Statist"! Enjoy an ocean-going week of pure luxury, with your every whim attended to by third-world wage slaves forced into bondage by crony capitalists! Attend candle-light vigils and dream of a better world, the world of Libertopia!

  • sevo||

    "People that are known and loved die every day, sometimes in horrible and public ways. The publicness doesn't make this any worse or more worthy of people's (faked, I would argue) concern and consideration."

    Exactly. My concern on a personal level would be identical if this guy had gone in and blown away the same number of random Safeway employees.

    "Several people were injured today in a seemingly random shooting which took the lives of X people. One of the injured works in Congress, the others are employed in productive endeavors."

  • ||

    Maybe it's because we're not shooting kids in the face... maybe it's because Iraq is a convoluted mess (disguised as evil by the left) while this fuck-nugget is a murdering bastard.

  • Almanian||

    "Our" image?? Speak for yerself.

  • Apogee||

    Most people concerned with their image probably don't gravitate to libertarianism.

    I'm free to agree and disagree with anyone here. If I wanted political conformity, I'd join a major party.

  • ||

    Episiarch and Joshua Corning vying for who could make the most outrageous, inhuman comment about Rep. Gifford's shooting.

    What the fuck?

    Just because I don't pretend to be an existential d-bags about every death that ever happens.

    Plus I think the term is inhumane not inhuman....the 3 inch spear head in Kennewick man's hip bone demonstrates that it is very human to not give a shit about the death of another person.

  • ||

    Can we get a border on the left side of the comments so I can tell which ones are replies FFS? Who designed this shit?

  • ||

    Can we get a border on the left side of the comments so I can tell which ones are replies FFS? Who designed this shit?

  • ||

    Also, hitting submit twice shouldn't create two comments, there should be a unique/random comment ID in the form post, and it shouldn't create more than one post with the same comment ID. This is the most basic shit that any web developer would implement.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Why hasn't the Invisible Hand correct this shit yet? We need more regulations from the Department of the Internet.

  • ||

    I have actually grown fond of Reason's idiosyncrasies.

    I wonder if Tupla and Swede think this makes me inhuman?

  • ||

    It certainly doesn't help.

  • HK-47||

    Sarcasm: On the contrary, this sort of illogical attachment to objective inferiority seems like precisely the behavior one should expect from a meatbag. Congratulations!

  • ||

    And a margin that doesn't disappear with page zoom.

  • ||

    What do you mean by a "border on the left side of the comments"? I'm sure I agree with your complaint (I love bitching about web design and utility), but I'm not sure I understand what that complaint is, exactly. How can you not currently "tell which ones are replies"?

  • Bradley||

    He means you can't tell at a glance which comments are top-level and which are replies. By "border" he means a line on the left-hand side that aligns comments of the same depth. Something like this:

    ├ Comment 1
    │ ├ Comment 1a
    │ └ Comment 1b
    └ Comment 2

    If that makes any more sense.

  • ||

    Replies are indented. What's the problem?

  • ||

    His problem is that he cannot tell if a post is indented or not. If there was a border aligned along non-indented comments, we could immediately tell.

  • Apogee||

    Reason is for open borders.

  • ||

    That's punny.

  • Almanian||

    Man, I heard the breaking news, took a couple hour nap, get up - and the good Congresswoman has risen from the dead. Glad the early, "confirmed" reports of her death apparently were exagerrated. Very sorry for those killed in injured and their families.

    Unfortunately, given the times we live in, my first reaction was, "Well, shit, here come more restrictions on my 2nd amendment rights, and now we'll be hiring a fucking SECOND army to accompany congresstards at ALL times." Not proud of that, but not ashamed either - you know it's coming.

    These are great times we're livin' in, boys. Can't wait till O'Reilly, Parker/Douchenozzle, E. Klein, D. Brooks, T. Friedman et al opine on this over the coming weeks. Planning on avoiding news channels for the next couple weeks, so I don't blow a fucking gasket at all the inevitable retardedness we'll be exposed to shortly.

  • ziggy||

    The gunman was obviously insane and a dipshit. Having said if the congresswoman does indeed die, its going to be one less corrupt politician on this earth. One who's supported policies take the lives of innocent people throughout the world. I would not feel sorry for her.
    I can't feel sorry for an individual who gladly supports the raping of individual rights.

  • Id||

    Wow dude.

    Oh: and fuck you.

  • hurrr||

    Fuck you for not sharing my concern!

  • durr||

    hurr, concern troll is CONCERNED

    hurr durr HURR DURRRRR HURR!

  • ryback's cook||

    Speaking of angry, crazy people...

  • ziggy||

    I dont know, it seems crazier to see how things are done in government and think that it's perfectly sane and members in congress actually care about their constituents.

  • ||

    Add Ziggy to the list of people who just don't get it and need to grow the fuck up. How old are you ziggy? 19? 20? tool.

  • ||

    If you call me a tool, then the argument to call me a tool is Ad hominem. You call me a tool. Thus, the argument to call me a tool is Ad hominem.

  • ||

    lol

  • ziggy||

    16!, please stop with the self-righteous bs. Ive heard enough stories from how corrupt and morally bankrupt most in congress are to be naive enough to believe she was "fighting for america". I can't feel bad someone who fits what I just described.

    I dont support what that moron did and will only worsen civil liberties. You can see the other parasites in congress already using this as a political tool!

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Hey, Swede, you should remember not to throw stones in your glass house.

  • Robert||

    The gunman was obviously insane and a dipshit.


    Aha! That's just what he wants you to think.

  • ||

    I hope the net.tuffgais proclaiming that this woman deserved to die have never, ever done anything that indirectly led to someone else being harmed.

  • ||

    Did I miss anything?

  • sevo||

    Tulpa|1.8.11 @ 8:26PM|#
    "I hope the net.tuffgais proclaiming that this woman deserved to die have never, ever done anything that indirectly led to someone else being harmed."

    I think you're confusing pleasure with indifference.
    Just for the heck of it, I googled 'arizona shooting deaths' and three or four alternatives; it'll take until page 3 before you get anything other than 'congress-critter wounded' or some sleazy politico claiming they all need more protection since blaah, blaah..., and the random reference to the judge and the poor kid.
    Not a word about the (at least) three others who died, nor any specifics on the many wounded, most of whom probably lead lives of greater value or at least less damage than the woman who worked in Congress.
    I certainly wish her no harm, and I can say the same about that hag Pelosi (just go away!). But her injuries have no value over the others who have been wounded, and less than those who have died (and their families)

  • ||

    Oh, there appears to be plenty of pleasure going around. Not on your part, which is good for you.

  • sevo||

    Tulpa|1.8.11 @ 8:59PM|#
    "Oh, there appears to be plenty of pleasure going around. Not on your part, which is good for you."

    Thanks for you comment, but I went all the way back to the top.
    Closest thing to "pleasure" I found was:
    "Fuck the politician; my sister lives in Tucson. I have to make sure she's OK."
    And if I had relatives there, I'd say the same.

  • ||

    If I had relatives there, and felt the need to check on them, I'd probably make sure they were ok before logging on to Hit & Run and proclaiming my apathy about the possible death of one of the shooting victims.

    Of course, seeing as how (a) the probability of them being involved is very low, and (b) there's nothing I could do to help them whether they were involved in this tragedy or not, I probably wouldn't have a burning desire to check on them immediately.

  • sevo||

    I still see no pleasure.

  • ||

    Yes, politicians repeatedly violate our rights, but guess who keeps electing those politicians? Democracy's a bitch, but as long as we have it there would have to be a very extreme reason where violence against politicians would ever be justified.

    This act of violence is truly saddening, and for all the bystanders who were actually killed even more so. There's no remotely logical reason he'd even want to kill a 9-year old girl if his goal was trying to spawn a violent revolution against the government. Thus he was probably mentally ill (or suffering from PTSD - he's a veteran) and seeking attention, like so many other similar murderers.

  • Apogee||

    There's no remotely logical reason

    Exactly.

  • ||

    I'm wrong. He's not a veteran. Tried out but failed apparently.

  • Robert||

    That's exactly what he wants you to think. Nobody will suspect his actual motive, and all it took was killing a 9 YO to throw you off his track.

  • Jerry||

    PIMA Sheriff Dupnik:

    When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the Capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.
  • sevo||

    "they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government."
    Says a government lackey. How surprising!

  • Irony||

    "We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry" so has Mecca

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    I went to the Harvard of Massachusetts. Now I drive the Cadillac of cars.

  • ||

    Now that's funny! Very clever, Irony!

  • ziggy||

    That sheriff just made my point. What bigotry and prejudice was he talking about btw? It seems to me it was white on white crime.
    I thought the hatred and bigotry going on around the 40', 50'and 60's was way worse than it is now but I guess not. Maybe he missed the civil rights movement...

  • alan||

    Th'are takin' our penshuns!

  • Apogee||

    When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to...

    Wouldn't unbalanced people respond in an unbalanced way to, uh, just about anything? Hello Kitty merchandise, Salsa, The Periodic Table, seat belts - all of these should have the same effect on someone who is unbalanced - or, in other words, irrational and unpredictable.

    So we take it that there's a need to control certain things this official doesn't like, even though the use of irrationality as a factor in causality makes no sense whatsoever.

    He's claiming to know the specific process by which an irrational individual followed a predictable course of action. Which, of course, would completely eliminate the description of unbalanced.

  • Butts Wagner||

    Hello Kitty merchandise, Salsa, The Periodic Table, seat belts

    FUCK YOU NOBLE GASES!!! I warned you what would happen to your girlfriend if you didn't pay me.

    *chokes out Hello Kitty doll using a seat belt*

    *dips cock into salsa jar, masturbates on doll using salsa as lube, then tries to set salsa/semen on fire*

    She was beautiful, Noble Gases. Look what you made me do? Now where's my money?

  • Neu Mejican||

    I love the speculation here.
    About what I expected.

    I think, based on the early information available that a couple of things are apparent.

    1. Dude is crazy.
    2. His craziness manifests in the domain of political paranoia.
    3. This makes his act an act of political terror...by a crazy person.

    His political message, however, is gonna be nothing but craziness.

    The Unibomber's acts were both political and crazy. This guy is pretty much in the same ballpark.

  • ||

    Same with the IRS plane guy.

  • ||

    The choice of targets for his acts may have been politically driven, but the driving force behind committing a crime like this was his craziness.

    Just because Andrea Yates claimed to have killed her children because God told her to, does not give her crime a religious dimension.

  • Neu Mejican||

    I disagree.

  • Bradley||

    At least Ted Kacynski was a decent writer.

  • Ted Kaczynski||

    Dear Bradley,

    Thank you for your kind words. Can you please post your address so I can mail you a package.

  • sevo||

    1600 Pennsyl.............
    Oh, wait a minute!

  • ||

    I agree. The Unabomber has that same lack of easily definable political categorization, and the same pretensions of intellectual superiority.

  • ||

    Shit guys, apparently he was a pot smoker. Now drug warriors can connect the missing link between marijuana and violence.

  • ||

    You guys better start stocking up on extended magazines for pistols, that's what they're saying this guy had in order to kill those people. Hell, buy assault rifles too because I can practically taste assault weapons ban 2.0 already.

  • Almanian||

    Of course, you're correct. A "stock" Glock 17 holds....17 rounds of 9mm. I only keep 3 clips for mine. That's still 51 rounds of hollow point death on your person.

    Be interesting to see what "they" consider to be an "acceptable" mag size. I'm guessing less-than 10 rounds...more like 5?

    Thanks a lot, crazed killer!

  • I am not the Governments ATM||

    I'd sub out those hollow points for ball. Hollow points are useless through walls, doors, car bodies, even wind screens. You're betting on a direct confrontation in the open and that won't be the case in a defensive posture at your home.

  • prolefeed||

    Be interesting to see what "they" consider to be an "acceptable" mag size.

    I'm guessing 0 is what a good chunk of politicians would like.

  • Lefty McLiberal||

    You guys like original meaning, right? The original meaning of the 2nd Amendment was to protect the ownership of muskets and primitive rifles, not semiautomatic handguns and assault rifles.

    You may have a muzzle-loading musket or a single-shot breach-loading rifle, but that is all.

  • prolefeed||

    The original (and, since it was never amended, also the current) meaning of the Second Amendment was "keep and bear arms", with no restrictions whatsover on what those "arms" could be.

    So, everything up to and including nukes is allowed under that wording, unless the wording is amended in the future.

    And, by amended, I don't mean reinterpreted by 5+ SCOTUS justices, because if they interpret wrong, they've committed an impeachable offense, and have not modified the constitution one bit.

  • jester||

    fuckin' a right on. Prole just pwned you.

  • cynical||

    True, just like freedom of the press and speech protects newspapers and people on a soapbox, but the internet and broadcast media are fair game for any regulations at all.

  • ||

    You guys like original meaning, right?

    Eh i can take it or leave it.

    Personally i like text meaning. ie interpreting the constitution as it is actually written.

  • ||

    "Police immediately ruled out any commenters on reason.com as the action would have required stepping away from a computer and losing valuable time making tough-guy statements about revolutions. Shooter also lacked man-breasts, a tell-tale sign of the long-term Hit & Run commenter."

  • ||

    :D

  • ||

    Studies have shown that manboobs are highly correlated with extreme sexual potency.

  • ||

    You're confusing potency with desperation and horniness.

  • ||

    My tits have been getting bigger.

    Thanks for the heads up mantooth.

  • Almanian||

    But do you have Newcular Titties™?

  • ||

    Pictures or it's not true.

  • ||

    You caught me, I'm lying. I just wanted mantooth to feel that he was correct, you know, to help him through his mourning.

  • Lefty McLiberal||

    +100, but most of that is because I'm stoned.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Damn (filthy) sockpuppet!

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    Damn (filthy) sockpuppet!

  • Brian Sorgatz||

    From Salon's liveblog of the shooting:

    Updated EST 8:34 PM: Sheriff Dupnik ends his press conference, emotionally decrying the political "vitriol" that may have in part fueled this tragedy. His final line is, "That may be free speech, but it’s not without consequences.”

    And so it begins...

  • nekoxgirl||

    A law enforcement official hating on part of the Bill of Rights, impossible!

  • ||

    Scrolling through the (endless) tweets about this thing is pretty depressing:

    http://twitter.com/#!/search/Rep Gabrielle Giffords

    The way most of these people engage with politics is fascinating. Even the smart ones are basically dumb. It's as if it's all a movie for them, featuring some basic characters ("Palin," "Limbaugh") and simple storylines ("the tea party fosters hatred"). And everything has to fit the script; more to the point, the script has to fit everything.

    I know there's nothing particularly revelatory about any of this -- most people are ignoramuses about politics and philosophy, and we already know that. But the age of social media has certainly provided a unique new window into it all.

  • ||

    Most people are kind of dumb.* That's the way it is.

    *About issues that don't personally affect them.

  • ||

    The real shocker of the day appears to be the Seahawks win. Holy shitballs.

  • Almanian||

    ^^this^^

  • ||

    I dunno if anyone else has watched any of the videos at the YouTube channel that was linked, but either he's trollin' hard, or he is not well. Incoherent word salad is, incidentally, a symptom of mental illness.

  • ||

    I concur. I took a look at those vids, and the guy's pretty obviously off his meds.

    -jcr

  • ||

    I noticed that as well. They should put his stuff in the DSM-IV.

  • ||

    If this guy's vids are fucked up crazy, then he must be fucked up crazy. This guy's vids are fucked up crazy, therefore he is fucked up crazy.

  • ||

    Wait, the Seahawks won???

  • Dello||

    Dead birds, beached crabs, Seahawks win...

    It's the end times, boys and girls.

  • Almanian||

    Detroit Lions close the season w/4 wins in a row, including a couple on the road. We're past end times and into the next world...

  • Jordan Elliot||

    If the Cubs win the World Series this year, we are beyond fucked. And I'm headed to the mountains.

  • ||

    The Cubs will win the series in 2012, which will bring about the end of the world.

  • ||

    If it wasn't the end times when my Cardinals went to the Super Bowl, I think we'll be fine.

  • Almanian||

    So Colts/Jets is, like, the opposite of the Saints/Seahawks game. 7-0 at the half, 7-7 at 5:08 of the 3rd quarter.

    Also, I understand there was a shooting somewhere in the US? Duh - "Dog Bites Man" We call a day with a shooting in the USofA "today" where I'm from.

    Carry on - there will also be shootings on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday...etc. etc. etc. Back to the game.

  • Almanian||

    WAIT! Now it's 10-7 Colts...just that quick.

  • Jordan Elliot||

    14-10 Jets now.

    I really hope they lose. Can't stand the Jets this year.

  • Jordan Elliot||

    If they lose, Todd Smith better be fired tomorrow.

  • Ted S.||

    I hate Rex Ryan and Peyton Manning. Can't both teams lose?

  • Jordan Elliot||

    I don't hate either but I'm no fan. Hopefully, the Jets lose here, and the Colts next week.

  • ||

    If the stadium exploded; then yes. But, then we'd have to endure another mournthread.

  • ||

    How can you hate Manning? Sweet Jeebus, is nothing sacred to you people?

  • alan||

    Cripple fights. That's pretty sacred.

  • Ted S.||

    His incessant whining gets the rules changed (see after the 2004 AFC championship game or this year's exhibition game against the Packers), leading to the impression that the league has one set of rulles for Manning (and Tom Brady), and one for the rest of the quarterbacks. That, and the rules have been skewed so heavily in favor of the offense. Particularly, in favor of passing, which has probably led to the increase in injuries and concussions, because more and more wide receivers are going over the middle on an increasing percentage of plays.

    Plus, Manning has failed so often in the big game. Remember Tee Martin? Yet so many people suck up to him even worse than anybody ever sucked up to Brett Favre in blaming losses on anybody but Manning. (And the Manning suckups are usually the first people to decry how people are defending Favre when he doesn't deserve it.) It was a lot of fun seeing Manning throw that pick-six in the Super Bowl last year, and hten watch people try to defend Manning. Earlier this season, I was listening to Mike Francesa interview Phil Simms on The NFL Now and when Francesa was defending Manning, Simms pointed out that Manning is only 9-9 in the playoffs (now 9-10). Francesa basically tried to pin all those losses on the defense. He did the same thing with Manning's loss to the Cowboys, ignoring the four INTs (two returned for TDs) because Manning led a game-tying drive in the final two minutes. Obviously, that proved the loss had to be the defense's fault.

  • ||

    The only three current quarterbacks in the NFL with winning records in the playoffs over at least ten games are Tom Brady (14-4), Donovan McNabb (10-7), and H&R favorite Ben Roethlisberger (8-2). Of course raw records are misleading, as they penalize teams that get first-round byes (as the Colts have done in most years). If you get a first-round bye and then lose in the conference championship, for instance, that's 1-1 on your record, despite being among the four best teams in the NFL that year.

  • Almanian||

    Interesting - thanks for the info, Tulpa.

    I cannot WAIT for today's games! I was singularly not excited about the playoffs, but those first two games was keepers! Hopefully today's are as good.

  • ||

    I know my neighbors are all rooting for the Chiefs in the early game, since they would rather have the Steelers play them next week. Personally I'm rooting for GB in the late game so the Bears get the She-hawks, but we'll see.

  • Ted S.||

    Week 6: Chicago 20, Seattle 23. In Solder Field, no less.

    I'm rooting for GB @ Seattle in the NFC Championship Game.

  • ||

    That was back when the Bears sucked, before Martz realized that you can't call 75% pass plays with the Bears' personnel at OL and WR.

  • Ted S.||

    They still suck.

  • alan||

    Doesn't really matter. They have to go up to Foxborough next week.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Apparently, Swede has neither a sense of humor, nor a sense of irony.

  • alan||

    To even ask the question he did. It is as if he hasn't even reached the stage where the curious outsider looks up the lyrics to Tom Sawyer to figure us out. Man, does he have a ways to go.

  • ||

    14-10 JETS!

  • Almanian||

    J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets!

  • ||

    Ya, I'd like to see 'em win.

  • Almanian||

    Doh! The running-into-the-kicker penalty screws Indy!

    And I missed Indy's field goal - 14-13 this is exciting!

  • Xenocles||

    Me too, I'd love to see a repeat of that Monday night game in New England. Not a rematch, a replay.

  • Jordan Elliot||

    And now this is what I'm hoping for too.

  • Robert||

    Sharks!

  • ||

    We need to get back to an America where gangs settled their differences with intricate and well-choreographed dance routines.

  • Rather||

    +

  • Almanian||

    Can't we all just get along!!!!

    *agonized look*

  • Almanian||

    GAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!! Now Indy has the ball back and a little over a minute! One-point game!

    Luv it!

  • Almanian||

    Vinatieri (sp?), right down the middle! Colts by 2!!

    Can the J.E.T.S. Jets, Jets, JETS come back!??

  • Almanian||

    Nice runback by Cromartie! Jets start @ the 45.

  • Jordan Elliot||

    Went from boring to exciting real quick.

  • Almanian||

    *******HEAD EXPLODES!!!********

    DAMN! Those were two good games! Sorry for all my friends who are BIG Colts fans, but I gotta give it to the J - E - T - S Jets, Jets, JETS! And the Seahawks.

    Hope the games tomorrow are as good as these two were!

  • ||

    And once again the commentators are blowing smoke up Mark Sanchez' gerbil chute for making that easy pass to Edwards to set up the field goal...after overthrowing everyone in the universe for the entire first half, throwing a terrible red zone INT to end the half, and having the ball essentially taken out of his hands in the second half by the Jets' calling runs on nearly every play.

    If Jay Cutler turned up a performance like that, everyone would be saying he sucks, but when an East Coast quarterback does it he's "clutch".

  • Almanian||

    Hmm, dunno - I don't pay much attention. Sanchez WAS guilty of everything you noted - esp the overthrowing and the *bad* interception in the first half.

    But Cutler is a spaz, regardless. Sanchez is, what, a rookie or second-uyear guy, so I gotta give him a couple yrs to see if it sorts out. Herman Moore couldn't hold onto the ball his first two years in the league - after that, he was Mr. Reliable and did NOT drop passes.

    Anyway, was a good, exciting game!

  • ||

    Yeah, but Cutler at least shows flashes of brilliance for varying periods of time. Sanchez is a game manager at best.

  • Almanian||

    I really, really hate Papa John's pizza. But my kids love it. I even like Pizza Slut pizza better...but they don't deliver. Shit...

    I also hate Papa John's commercials, which is what made me think of this, cause one was just on.

  • ||

    Man, I live in Pittsburgh, and for all of its suckitude, we have many great pizza joints. A lot of them are owned by turkish families, and turks make a great pie.

    I haven't ordered pizza from a place with teevee commercials in like 10 years.

  • Almanian||

    Yep - where I grew up, a guy who lived the next block over ran the local joint. Still does - his son's taking over. Best. Pizza. EVER. We stop in every time I'm back in town to visit my mom.

    My kids/family = no taste in pizza. Alllll the big joints - they love it.

    *barf*

  • ||

    The chains always remind me of the end of Goodfellas when Hank Hill bitches about not being able to find good spaghetti.

  • alan||

    I don't recall anyone selling propane in the movie, or the truly awesome true crime novel it was based on.

    If my memory is right, his name was Henry. Sorry for the pedantic nonsense but I had a rather ugly picture of Ray in the part of King of The Hill in my head when I read your post!

  • Robert||

    What about the Beaver and Butthole cartoon that preceded it, that had a much older Hank Hill?

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    I have never had the pizza within 100 miles of Pittsburgh, and I'm still just going to tell you that you're wrong. Outside of New York City, New Jersey, and (to a lesser extent) Philadelphia, pizza is a cheesed doughy abortion.

  • Poppin' Caps lock||

    In addition to the fact that it's beyond stupid (and totally contrary to libertarianism) to slay another human being when he or she poses no immediate threat to your life, it remains true that politicians with an affinity for government abuse can always be replaced, rendering murderous acts like these pointless.