This Is What Happens to a Deaf, Mentally Disabled Man in America

Bill Flanigen notes that police in Mobile, Alabama, recently used pepper spray and a stun gun on a deaf, mentally disabled man who overstayed his welcome in a Dollar Store restroom, then charged him with disorderly conduct for provoking the assault. Alabama's definition of disorderly conduct is similar to the one used in Massachusetts, and it's not clear which part the police thought applied to sitting on a toilet too long. Engaging in "tumultuous behavior"? Obstructing "pedestrian traffic"? Making "unreasonable noises"?

Love, who has a mental age of about 10, says he was not feeling well and was in the bathroom for about a half-hour before the police "throw poison under the door." Soon they broke into the bathroom, he recalled in an account he wrote for his family, and "the police get the tazz three strings in my stomach, chest and hand and hit my head." Later, he says, "I saw police laugh at me." Citing a police spokesman, the Mobile Press-Register reports that "the officers' decision to take Love to jail—even after they discovered his disability—as well as their conduct throughout the incident is still under investigation."

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  • ||

    Would anyone care to defend the proposition that these officers shouldn't be charged with assault, battery, and false arrest? Anyone at all?

  • Polizei||

    Society must be rid of untermensch.

  • ||

    I'm guessing Love isn't a friend of the president's and that he couldn't credibly tell the cops, "you don't know who you're messing with."

  • ||

    Look, Dollar Store employee, we're doing everything we can to weed them out, but some of these retards are very clever.

  • jasno||

    Oh come on R.C. - they were just following standard procedures, so it's not really their fault. As for the guy who wrote the procedures, well, he doesn't work for the department anymore. Since it's obviously not the police department's fault, this guy must have brought the whole thing on himself.

  • hmm||

    If he's mentally 10 can he still have a beer at the White House?

  • William||

    But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers. Oops, that doesn't shore up Mr. Sullum's relentlessly anti-police arguments, does it? Libertarians cherry pick their evidence and concentrate on the most outrages abuses of police (or state) power and generalize from them to "AMERICA.' In Sullum's case, I guess it's a living, but a very dishonest one.

  • hmm||

    Look, Dollar Store employee, we're doing everything we can to weed them out, but some of these retards are very clever.

    I laughed. I'm going to hell.

  • jasno||

    You know, I was joking, but then I read the AP Article:

    Levy said officers were justified in using force against Love since he had an umbrella.

    "The officers really worked within the limits of our level-of-force policy," he said. "We had no information about who this guy was."

  • ||

    But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers.

    What, like you?

  • hmm||

    But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers. Oops, that doesn't shore up Mr. Sullum's relentlessly anti-police arguments, does it? Libertarians cherry pick their evidence and concentrate on the most outrages abuses of police (or state) power and generalize from them to "AMERICA.' In Sullum's case, I guess it's a living, but a very dishonest one.

    I don't care if you are mother fucking Theresa for your entire life. If you do not correct such an egregious action after the fact with more egregious apology you need to be shot for the good of mankind. Plain and simple. No investigation, no we will wait and see. Straight up we fucked up dood, here's a lifetime supply of banana splits w/ sprinkles. Can we get you anything else?

  • jasno||

    William, you're either a troll or an ass.

    Not only was this a clearly unjustified use of force, but the department is already trying to cover it's ass(see my last post).

    95%(hell, probably more) of cops are great. But when they fuck up, they need to be held to a higher standard. Sullum, Balko and Co. aren't anti-police - they're anti-bad-police. There's a big difference.

  • ||

    "The officers really worked within the limits of our level-of-force policy," he said. "We had no information about who this guy was."

    So I kinda got worked up about that sentence and was ready to lecture about the common law notion of "taking a victim as you find him," and then I went back and read the sentence before it:

    Levy said officers were justified in using force against Love since he had an umbrella.

    Seriously? An umbrella? A FUCKING umbrella?

  • +||

    This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is, literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon, but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel better about their smug selves.

  • ||

    Seriously? An umbrella? A FUCKING umbrella?



    Why are there two blog posts on this.

    In the other post I already explained the dangers umbrellas pose as exemplified in Batman.

  • ||

    This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is, literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon, but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel better about their smug selves.

    It is adds more proof to the assertions that these incidents aren't really all that isolated (unless your point is that it's an "isolated incident" because this guy is the only deaf and mentally handicapped man that was a victim of excessive force in the recent past), and that the cops aren't accountable when they do fuck up.

    Already they are defending the use of a taser because he had an umbrella.

  • hmm||

    This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is, literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon, but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel better about their smug selves.

    The incident may be isolated. The way it is handled is not and will not be any different.

    For the record isolated is becoming a broader and broader term with respect to these incidents.

  • ||

    We need more facts. Specifically, does the stun gun cure constipation? I hear Nutrasweet likes it messy, I nominate him for the experiment.
    ;-)

  • jasno||

    I'm not sure every article on Reason needs to 'prove' anything.

    This is an isolated incident in that I'm pretty sure it's the first time police have tasered a deaf-retard in a public restroom.

    However, as an example of faulty police tactics and training, coupled with a lack of basic common sense and respect for the people they serve, this is definitely not an isolated incident.

  • +||

    hmm | July 28, 2009, 6:53pm | #

    If you do not correct such an egregious action after the fact with more egregious apology you need to be shot for the good of mankind....Straight up we fucked up dood, here's a lifetime supply of banana splits w/ sprinkles.


    This is "hmm" on drugs.

  • ||

    William, you're either a troll or an ass.

    I thought William was simply parodying the common law-and-order response to such stories. It's depressing that you might very well be right.

  • hmm||

    Hmm doesn't do drugs. He doesn't need to. Talking about one's self in the third person is pretentious. Saying "one's self" is also pretentious.

  • ||

    I'm pretty sure it's the first time police have tasered a deaf-retard in a public restroom

    Well, jasno, this incident doesn't say anything about a bathroom, but it's from 2005. I'm sure we could find more with a little additional searching.

  • ||

    In the other post I already explained the dangers umbrellas pose as exemplified in Batman.

    Look, if he were carrying the umbrella near, say, United World Security Council diplomats, then I would have no issue with the officers' actions...

  • +||

    these incidents aren't really all that isolated

    Yes, they are, if "isolated" has any meaning...you know: unusual, rare, extraordinary, strange, uncommon, unique, atypical...I could go on, but someone with your intelligence, as evidenced by your ability to comment on H&R, must surely get it by now.

    Now that I've served you, I have better things to do. Have fun with this one, drones.

  • ||

    Use of the Taser and the pepper spray appear to be justified according to the department's policy, [Levy] said.

    * * *

    Police were called to the store at 12:22 p.m. after someone reported that a man had been in the bathroom for more than an hour behind a locked door, said Cpl. Charles Bagsby, another police spokesman.

    When the officers arrived, they pounded on the door but got no answer, Bagsby said. They pounded again. No answer.



    Being in a bathroom for an hour and not responding to people pounding on the door obviously now constitutes probable cause to believe the crime of mopery with intent is being committed. No possible reason to think "the department's policy" is whacked.

  • ||

    Yes, they are, if "isolated" has any meaning...you know: unusual, rare, extraordinary, strange, uncommon, unique, atypical

    Being improperly/inappropriately tasered by police isn't all that rare or uncommon. So no jackass, it isn't ISOLATED.

  • ||

    Being in a bathroom for an hour and not responding to people pounding on the door obviously now constitutes probable cause to believe the crime of mopery with intent is being committed.

    What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the fucking pepper spray.

  • Mister DNA||

    If this incident is indeed "isolated", it's only because there aren't enough mentally handicapped deaf people around to get tased and pepper-sprayed by the cops. What with all the uppity grandmothers, pregnant women and epileptics out there disturbing the peace, I'm sure deaf people aren't that big of a priority.

  • William||

    "Sullum, Balko and Co. aren't anti-police - they're anti-bad-police. There's a big difference."

    That's why the lede to Sullum's post makes it sound as if such treatment of the mentally disabled is common in America, right? Give me a break. This is sensationalist "journalism" at it's worst. It's just propaganda. But propaganda beats thinking for you bozos, doesn't it?

  • ||

    What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the fucking pepper spray.

    In fariness, the Alabama Press-Register reported that the police used pepper spray after they knocked repeatedly, no one answered, and saw someone moving around:

    "I wait and sit toilet," Love's note read. "I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard."

    At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. They then shot pepper spray under the door.

    "The police arrive General Dollar and throw poison through under the door," Love's note continued. "I can smell poison and I'm amazing and shock."

  • ||

    That's why I said "possibly moving", Tom. A stroke victim could be moving, and they'd see movement and still pepper spray them.

    I'd think that one would be worried that the person inside was hurt--that would be my first thought, and not "PEPPER SPRAY!!!"

    But propaganda beats thinking for you bozos, doesn't it?

    You have our number, dude!

  • Space Fiend||

    There is no possible way spraying pepper spray into a confined space, which almost certainly has poor ventilation, without some kind of threat being established.

    That could easily cause complications which would kill a person, especially if they were having health problems, as the police acknowledged they knew nothing about what was going on inside.

    Secondly, the police sprayed the room before they even had a tool to take advantage of it - they sprayed and then went to get a tire iron. In other words, they just wanted to cause someone pain and anguish for no purpose, even this mentally disabled man was easily able to recover by the time they came back.

  • Space Fiend||

    Missed a clause in the first sentence there, should be "poor ventilation, can be justified..."

  • Mister DNA||

    That's why the lede to Sullum's post makes it sound as if such treatment of the mentally disabled is common in America, right? Give me a break.



    You're new here, aren't you? In spite of the gravity of the subject. Reason's writers often approach topics with irreverence. The lede is a play off the...

    You know, fuck it. If you don't get it, it's your problem, not mine.

  • ||

    What is fucked up is that this case is not likely to make the news. There won't be a beer summit with the Messiah and whatever stupid prick pulled this off decided to pick of a deaf retard.

    I like that a magistrate refused the charges. I wonder if the cop knew the victim was a deaf retard when he filed the charges. I mean jesus, doesn't anything embarass these assholes. I'd like to learn more about this cop.

  • ||

    Isn't it obvious, Troy? William is the cop.

  • ||

    "off and decided

  • ||

    All right, I have to know the answer to this.

    Every so often, on a potentially inflammatory topic, we get a new troll, always going by one common first name. WTF is up with this? Sockpuppets, or real trolls who just happened to see Reason.com for the first time via a link to that HNR post?

  • ||

    Some poor lady got stuck on her toliet for a week. Somehow, the Australians were able to resolve the situation without violence. It doesn't appear that chemical warfare was the first choice to resolve the situation.


    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535048,00.html?test=latestnews

  • Charles||

    The first comment from here:
    http://www.wkrg.com/alabama/article/tased-off-the-toilet/217854/Jul-28-2009_6-28-pm/

    debbie4 Says:
    Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    this doesnt make sense….if he was handicapped and had the mind of a 10 yr. old, why did they let him walk to dollar general alone? i knew when i first heard about this that a lawsuit would come of it, its typical…he had stomach problems the mom said, it all sounds strange. i think the police acted in the proper way…i guess they should stop all people doing something wrong or illegal or suspicious and ask if they are impaired, disabled, mentally handicapped, etc..llke they have all day to do that…we're so quick to complain about them, and also when they dont show up fast enough…the police arent necessarily there to "protect" us, that was his mothers job while she sat her butt on the couch at home…the police are there to enforce the law.

    There is nothing so bad that could happen to my state or country that I wouldn't recognize, at some level, that we deserve it.

  • Fluffy||

    Tomorrow's headline:

    "Police Tase Mute Man Who Would Not Give Name"

    Transcript of Police Radio Tape:

    Officer Typical: Damn it, tell us your name!

    Mute Guy: Nnnnnhhhh! Nnnnhhhhh!

    [Taser sound effect]

    [Pause]

    [Taser sound effect]

    Officer Typical: Your name! Give us your god damn name!

    Mute Guy: Nnnnnnhhhh! Nnnnnnnhhhh!

    [Taser sound effect]

    [Mute guy reaches for pencil and paper in desperate bid to write name down.]

    Officer Average: Typpie, he's going for your gun!

    [BANG BANG BANG BANG!]

  • Untermensch||

    Quað polizei:

    Society must be rid of untermensch.



    What do you have against me?

  • max hats||

    There is nothing so bad that could happen to my state or country that I wouldn't recognize, at some level, that we deserve it.



    Honestly, the creeping authoritarianism in this country is making me more and more inclined to bail. My great grandfather on one side came here to escape persecution in the old country, and my ancestors on the other side came here for economic opportunity. Four generations, the old countries have economies almost as good as ours with a lot less inequality, the people there don't make a habit of invading random countries, and police don't even carry guns on their belt. In my eyes, the competitive advantages of freedom, security and good government are fading fast compared to much of the rest of the first world. Four generations from now, Ireland will be fine. I'm not so sure I can say the same thing for America.

  • ||

    police don't even carry guns on their belt

    What countries are those?

  • ||

    "[Y]ou're either a troll or an ass."

    Is asstroll a word yet?

  • max hats||


    What countries are those?



    Ireland specifically, most of Europe generally. Throughout the first world, police carrying firearms on their person is the exception rather than the rule. We are the freaks.

  • ||

    Four generations from now, Ireland will be fine.

    And how about that Blasphemy law?

  • Sean W. Malone||

    "the police arent necessarily there to "protect" us"

    Cept for... you know.. the whole "To Serve & Protect" mantra, sure.

  • ||

    Ireland specifically, most of Europe generally.

    Not in my experience. England and Ireland, but in the european countries I've lived in and visited cops carry guns.

    Besides, Ireland is a complete dump.

  • ||

    max, work is very, very hard to come by in Europe, and you can forget getting a visa anyway, unless your company sponsors you, and even then it's not usually permanent. If you have two Irish grandparents from Ireland you can get an Irish passport very easily, and that gives you the ability to work anywhere you want as long as you want within the EU. However, if you're not a Mick with recent immigrant granparents, you're shit out of luck.

    Not to say that authoritarianism here isn't disturbing; it is. But getting out isn't as easy as we'd all hope. And honestly, cops are cops everywhere.

  • ||

    The cops carry guns in most of Europe. England is an exception.

  • hmm||

    The cops carry guns in most of Europe. England is an exception.

    That's an understatement. You see cops totting MP5s all over Europe, and not just in airports.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I still struggle with finding any alternatives. I have little hope for Friedman's Seasteading thing, mostly because I think it should be completely built by now if the people running that show had any ability to get it done, and I don't want to live in New Hampshire.

    Besides, from what I understand most of the original NH residents are pretty annoyed with the FSP people.

    But I've been all over Europe and I wouldn't live there unless I had millions of dollars and could slip in unnoticed by customs.

    Not sure where else I might move though. Asia perhaps... Could live like a king in Thailand or Manila... Fuck.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    And for the record, yes, most cops not only carry "guns", they tend to carry big-ass motherfucking guns.

  • ||

    I think I'll go to New Zealand when the shit hits the fan here. And live like a hobbit.

  • max hats||

    And how about that Blasphemy law?



    I had to google that. Wow. But by all accounts, it's kind of a weird technicalism and probably not for this world.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0728/p06s07-woeu.html

    By his reckoning, Ireland has been violating its constitution for the past 48 years - since the passage of a 1961 law on defamation that mentioned blasphemy but was vague in its language and non-specific about potential penalties. When the government decided to update defamation law, he argues, it was legally bound to include the new criminal charge of blasphemous libel, punishable by a fine of €25,000 ($35,000).

    Irish legal scholars have generally agreed with his interpretation. "I don't like the idea of a crime of blasphemy, but the minister was right," says Eoin O'Dell, a senior lecturer at the School of Law, Trinity College Dublin. But atheists and free speech advocates have been irate.



    Not that I'm trying to defend it, but I don't think it's a sign of creeping totalitarianism. It's a fluke if anything, unless no one changes it and then some people start enforcing it, which I definitley don't expect to happen. More to the original point, as far as trendlines of awesomeness, I see America's pointing a bit in the negative and has the capacity to go sharply negative. I don't see the old world being in such peril. If I do end up putting down roots in the United States, I really worry about what I might be setting up future generations for. This country might start getting really scary. There's a standing consensus here that the president should have more or less dictatorial powers, and most people seem to believe that police should be allowed to do whatever they want. Most of the country either does not believe making government work well is possible, or does not believe it's worth the effort. Long story short, I think we might be fucked.

    Idle thoughts, which I am pointlessly writing on a public blog.

  • max hats||


    Not to say that authoritarianism here isn't disturbing; it is. But getting out isn't as easy as we'd all hope. And honestly, cops are cops everywhere.



    My bail plan is either Canada or Australia, both of which have very liberal immigration policies for skilled workers.

  • hmm||

    I think I'll go to New Zealand when the shit hits the fan here. And live like a hobbit.

    Jesus, the shit could hit the fan here in a huge way and still not be as fucked up as NZ laws.

  • ||

    max, the cops are pretty much as bad in Canada, and you don't even have the vestiges of 4th Amendment protection up there. If they want to roadblock and search your car, guess what? They can and will.

    I don't know about Australia.

  • hmm||

    Fuckem' I ain't leavin. No need to plan to. I'll stop participating and wait for the consequences long before I run.

  • IceTrey||

    So they just shoot in pepper spray without any idea what is happening inside? What if someone had been having a heart attack? Fucking cops.

  • ||

    Max, I (sadly) live in the UK, and it is a country that is moving very strongly towards an authoritarian state. Generally with the full endorsement of the middle classes.

    Australia is a nice country (esp. Melbourne) and offers a good balance of lifestyle and economic activity. The cops their carry guns, love shooting people, and are no strangers to corruption.

    I admit that it is difficult to have a positive long term outlook about the US with the massive debt etc. Europe has a lot of population problems though. I would live in Denmark again though, and may move to Switzerland next year.

  • max hats||

    Both countries definitely have their problems, and no where is exactly perfect. Australia is down with every dumb war we start, and Canada has big problems integrating its immigrant population. One thing America is truly amazing at is it's integration.

    I'm not so much bothered by roadblocks or a lack of an amendment we have pretty much eradicated ourselves. What scares me about America's direction is the possibility of just becoming fairly shitty all in all. I don't think becoming a failed state is really an option, not for the foreseeable future anyway, but with all our institutions being so incredibly inefficient and so much going on to drag us down, I just don't see a positive trendline for this country, especially relative to a lot of the first world.

  • ||

    But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers.



    The de-institutioalized mental patients (crazy street people to you) would disagree with your assessment of LEO understanding of, and compassion for, the mentally disabled.

    Do you even think before you comment?

  • ||

    If not New Zealand, then the Yukon!

    My tiger friend has got the sled,
    And I have packed a snack.
    We're all set for the trip ahead.
    We're never coming back!

    We're abandoning this life we've led!
    So long, Mom and Pop!
    We're sick of doing what you've said,
    And now it's going to stop!

    We're going where it snows all year,
    Where life can have real meaning.
    A place where we won't have to hear,
    "Your room could stand some cleaning."

    The Yukon is the place for us!
    That's where we want to live.
    Up there we'll get to yell and cuss
    And act real primitive.

    We'll never have to go to school,
    Forced into submission,
    By monstrous, crabby teachers who'll
    Make us learn addition.

    We'll never have to clean a plate,
    Of veggie glops and goos.
    Messily we'll masticate,
    Using any fork we choose!

    The timber wolves will be our friends.
    Well stay up late and howl
    At the moon, till nighttime ends,
    Before going on the prowl.

    Oh, what a life! we cannot wait,
    To be in that arctic land,
    Where we'll be masters of our fate,
    And lead a life that's grand!

    No more of parental rules!
    We're heading for some snow!
    Good riddance to those grown-up ghouls!
    We're leaving! Yukon Ho!

  • ||

    One question that any prospective American ex-pat must ask themselves is "do they have the NFL where I am going?"

  • ||

    Calvin was pretty unaware of how far away the Yukon is, ProL.

  • ||

    This is too depressing to even contemplate. First, somewhere there is a Union and some fucking hack who is going to come out and say they were "just following proceedures". Second, as a Roman historian once said, "people don't just become depraved". I seriously doubt these clowns were just law abiding wonderful cops who one day decided that it was a good idea to use tear gas and tazers to get someone out of a bathroom. God only knows what other horrible things they have done and gotten away with.

    If I were this kids father, I would catch one of these fucks coming out of a bar or in a dark ally fucking taser them until they died or begged me to kill them.

  • ||

    Forget that libertymike, one simply must know about the availability of rugby, cricket, and golf! :)

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I'm personally less worried about cops (seeing as I don't live a particularly reckless lifestyle and I'm not a deaf-mute who can't talk myself out of situations) than I am about the economic stuff.

    If I ever consider having kids, I cannot in any kind of reasonable conscience justify shoving trillions of dollars of debt burden on them. Not to mention, I don't personally want to be fucked by it as hard as I know I already will be.

    Personally, what I'm hoping to do is to figure out a way to get enough money to set up my various business endeavors & affairs remotely via the tubes, and then try as best I can to live off-grid anywhere. Preferably somewhere exotic and pretty. Rural New Zealand would be fine...

    But for me, the big question is how the hell I'm going to get into a position to do that effectively. I'm at the beginning of my career and as far as it goes now with the economy as it is, and the government's fucked up response, I'm not sure it's reasonable at all to expect being able to find any way to be really financially successful in the near future.

  • ||

    mike, violent ground acquisition games such as football are in fact crypto-fascist metaphors for nuclear war.

  • ||

    I think maybe Costa Rica might not be a bad ex pat choice. The government is democratic. Like most Central Americans they hate communists. It is beautiful. The women are beautiful. The dollar goes far. And it is just corrupt enough to bribe your way out of trouble.

  • ||

    "I'm personally less worried about cops (seeing as I don't live a particularly reckless lifestyle and I'm not a deaf-mute who can't talk myself out of situations) than I am about the economic stuff."

    I used to think that way to. But then I see things like this and the small town mayor outside of Washington who got his house terrorized and his dogs shot. And I think maybe I am kidding myself thinking cops are nothing to worry about.

  • ||

    Rural New Zealand would be fine...

    Better get a like-minded wife and a good internet connection then. You won't find any attractive women or intellectual stimulation local to those parts.

  • ||

    dbcooper-

    I hear it ain't so bad in the Pacific Northwest. Oregon and Washington are two states that have a healthy respect for individual privacy.

    As I said to MNG on another thread earlier, one's ability to go undetected in a given area is an important criteria in assessing the area's relative freedom.

  • ||

    And I think maybe I am kidding myself thinking cops are nothing to worry about.

    The cops are nothing to worry about, until they mistakenly raid your house, or decide they don't like you when they pull you over, or when they're the one setting records for DUI arrests and decide to arrest you for "slurred speech", or...

    I could go on.

  • Mister DNA||

    As much as I entertain notions of packing up and moving to a country more receptive to the concept of liberty, I don't think I'll ever be able to do it.

    In a sense, I support what the Free State Project is doing, but damn it, it's the fucking Nanny Staters who need to be the ones thinking, "You know, there's too much freedom where I live, I think I'll pack up and move to a more repressive location."

  • ||

    Episiarch,

    Yes, scoff, you who have never built a time machine or transmorgrifier.

  • max hats||


    I hear it ain't so bad in the Pacific Northwest. Oregon and Washington are two states that have a healthy respect for individual privacy.



    Speaking as a resident - if you're a social liberal, the pacific northwest is great. But if you're a full on libertarian as your handle implies, you will hate it. Individual liberties are relatively good and have big prospects for improvement. But business rights are by common consensus subject to capricious changes. See the indoor smoking laws, and all the taxes that keep getting thrown on restaurants.

    Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure why we in Seattle seem to focus all our anti-business ire pretty much entirely on restaurants. That is weird.

  • ||

    Unless you want to leave the country, you really need to go to Alaska. It is so big up there, you can go places where no one will bother you. As my friend who lived in Alaska used to say, "there are a lot of people in Alaska who don't want to be found."

  • ||

    Epi, even though I liked Carlin, my funny bone was never tickled, never mind scratched, by his baseball/football skit.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    WHY IS NO ONE TELLING ME WHAT COLOR THIS MAN IS???

  • Cop Cock||

    Oh William, you useless fuck except for those beautiful lips, I want you to use the cherry shade of lipstick tonight. + you get out the cinnamon. Where is Tulpa so we can make it a true rainbow party?

  • ||

    Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure why we in Seattle seem to focus all our anti-business ire pretty much entirely on restaurants. That is weird.

    How do you mean? We have an amazing restaurant industry here, far better than one would normally expect out of a town this size. The food is phenomenal, and there are a ton of restaurants. They don't seem overly hampered by anti-business sentiment.

    Also, I'll note that the gun laws here in Washington are excellent too.

  • Alex||

    But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers.

    But let's not forget the many Nazis who never gassed any Jews.



    ...



    What do I win?

  • ||

    Obama is going to invite them both to the White House for a beer, right?

  • max hats||

    I think there's tremendous demand for restaurants, and Seattle attracts a diverse crowd with different perspectives on food, and Seattle culture encourages people to try all those different kinds - there's going to be a good restaurant industry regardless.

    What I mean, though is that everytime something is going to be built, boom, new restaurant tax. Sound transit? Restaurant tax. New stadium? Restaurant tax. And the smoking ban was aimed squarely at restaurants and bars. I have no doubt that whatever replaces the viaduct will end up raising the price of dining out. Somehow restaurant tax became the easy tax here.

  • Ben Kenobi||

    This is one of the most disgusting things I've read in a long time. I'll say this about criminals and cops, at least with criminals you usually know what they want and they often aren't in it just to hurt you. With cops it seems they're just sadistic fucks.

  • ||

    What do I win?

    The thread?

  • ||

    If you are some race hustler 70% white con man who has a job at Harvard and get mistreated by the cops, the President will make sure they make amends. If you are a deaf mentally disabled guy in Alabama who gets tear gassed and tazered for staying in the bathroom too long, you are not getting anything. Besides, this guy was probably just a typical white person. And it is not like he hasn't benefited from white male privilege his whole life. The Obamasiah has more important things to do than worry about his white ass.

  • ||

    Somehow restaurant tax became the easy tax here.

    I think you got why when you said:

    there's going to be a good restaurant industry regardless

    They can, so they do.

    I haven't been anywhere particularly interesting in a while...last thing was Txori.

  • Jesse Walker||

    William, you're either a troll or an ass.

    He's the troll/ass formerly known as Lefiti. Occasionally he changes his handle to trick other commenters into attempting to engage him in debate. While it's possible that he really doesn't recognize the allusion in the title (not lede) of Jacob's post, he's probably playing dumb to get a rise out of people. It's best to ignore him.

  • ||

    So asstroll is a word. I knew it!

  • Warty||

    And here I thought William was being sarcastic. How 'bout that, Lefiti managed to write in a different voice! I'm so proud of him.

  • hmm||

    Access to the IP addresses is a trolls Achilles heal.

  • ||

    How about Montana? Lots of space to not be noticed, no whacky daylight issues like Alaska, not too socialist like Vermont, not too Masshole like New Hampshire, not too far like New Zealand...

    Let's face it, there's no where in the solar system where you're getting away from the U.S. Government. Find the best state and invite your friends.

  • Robert||

    One question that any prospective American ex-pat must ask themselves is "do they have the NFL where I am going?"


    Ireland has the National Football League. Of course it's Gaelic football.

  • ||

    Let's face it, there's no where in the solar system where you're getting away from the U.S. Government.


    I disagree. The U.S. government can't even make it back to the Moon.

  • ||

    Nick, i agree 100%. too bad i'm stuck with 11 million other assholes in new jersey

  • ||

    "Besides, this guy was probably just a typical white person."

    Nope he's black. Thanks for playing, please try again.

    http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/local_news/Deaf_Man_Tased_Investigation_Sparked

  • ||

    I thought about Canada too, but really it's altogether worse than here - it only seems better because there aren't as many people. Getting in is tricky though. Basically unless you wash up on the shore saying "political asylum (or asylum de politique)" you're stuck with some pretty heavy entry requirements. The best thing to do is work to turn the tide here. It's bad, but can be turned around.

    As to the article there was a similar incident in Boston a few months back (I wish I could find the link) as well as a very violent incident in Chicago involving a bartender (lost the link there too).

  • hmm||

    http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/local_news/Deaf_Man_Tased_Investigation_Sparked

    I await his invitation to the white house for the 09 summit on race relations between cops pigs and Americans.

  • max hats||

    Getting in is tricky though. Basically unless you wash up on the shore saying "political asylum (or asylum de politique)" you're stuck with some pretty heavy entry requirements. The best thing to do is work to turn the tide here. It's bad, but can be turned around.



    Not entirely - if you're an english speaker with a bachelors degree and 4 years of work experience in a broad range of categories and are between 21-49, you're in.

    http://www.workpermit.com/canada/individual/skilled.htm

    If deficient in any of those areas, relations in Canada, French language skills, having experience living in Canada, having a spouse with educational certification or living experience in Canada, or having a job lined up already in Canada can compensate.

  • inDglass||

    I keep hearing people defend this kind of crap, saying it is extremely rare statistically but just gets a lot of attention when it happens. However, I see disgusting reports like this almost weekly. And regardless of how "rare" these sort of incidents are, it is unacceptable. We should accept no form of tyranny, no matter how "small."

  • hmm||

    All the "run away, run away" people remind me of the Hollywood fucktards that threatened to leave if Bush was re-elected.

  • ||

    Well, I, for one, have no intention of leaving.

  • Sen. Larry Craig||

    That was no pepper spray, that was my...

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Nope he's black. Thanks for playing, please try again.

    For the love of God, will someone please tell me what color the cops were?

  • ||

    Listen I live in Idaho and Larry Craig just opened and office in Eagle where I live. No more using the can in my town. What's that tapping?
    BTW, why didn't they spray the clown at Harvard? He is a serious ass hole, although thats can't be against the law or Washingtom would be a ghost town.

  • Tulpa||

    The cops probably didn't know he was deaf or retarded because that's what all black people sound like.

    Getting rid of slavery was not a good idea.

  • JB||

    The headline is great.

    I'm sure Gates would call it racist.

  • Ray Gardner||

    The whole Harvard affair could have a slight rewrite and be a great Tarantino movie along the lines of "Reservoir Dogs." Everyone's wrong, everyone's a jerk, and they all die violent deaths.

    I'm at a loss for what movie would be a rewrite for this bathroom issue though. Forrest Gump?

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I'm at a loss for what movie would be a rewrite for this bathroom issue though. Forrest Gump?

    Sling Blade, ah reckon.

    All right, who's sockpuppeteering, Tulpa?

    And I want a psych report on William "Lefiti Markets Are Magical" Edward Morris, stat. He has to be the second most dedicated troll I've ever seen behind LoneWacko. Maybe more dedicated, even.

  • wujing||

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Someone plz link to a good PSA about the hazards and folly of interweb trolling.

  • threeofclubs||

    the police offices being immediately sacked and charged with criminal acts, now that would be an isolated incident.

  • Untermensch||

    I disagree. The U.S. government can't even make it back to the Moon.



    If they thought there was tax revenue to get there, they would.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Untermensch,

    Not "tax revenue", just "revenue", you fiscal terrorist.

  • ||

    Wow, lowlife cops. Its PUNK cops like this I just love to hear about in the newst hat get clipped in the line of duty!

    RT
    www.anon-web-tools.tk

  • Abdul||

    Wow! The anonymity-bot suddenly got radicalized.

  • DJF||

    So now Reason Mag is against property rights?

    Its obvious that the police did not show up on their own, they were called by the management who had a unwelcome guest on their property. But Reason now says that some guy can stay on someone elses property as long as they want and cannot be removed.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Ooh, that's a good troll, DJF. :)

  • Fluffy||

    But Reason now says that some guy can stay on someone elses property as long as they want and cannot be removed.

    They aren't objecting to the removal, they're objecting to the use of the pepper spray and taser.

    Pepper spray and the taser should be non-lethal means of subduing an agitated person who is physically attacking a police officer or another person. They should not be a means of securing compliance with police demands.

    That's why the police statement that the use of force here met department guidelines is so offensive. It's probably TRUE. This department probably has guidelines that allow these items to be used not to defend officers, but to torture people into complying with police orders. [Yes, if a police officer is allowed to walk up to a line of protestors sitting down in the street and say, "If you don't get up and walk out of the street, I will mace you until you do!" that is a threat to use torture.]

  • ||

    The "cherry picking" argument: So, because there are some decent cops who behave decently, we should ignore the brutality and abuses of trust and power that occur on a routine basis by the police? Is that the argument?

  • DJF||

    Are you saying that force cannot be used to protect property rights? The pepper spray was used in an attempt to force the trespasser from the property so that the police would not have to damage the door which is valuable property of the owners. Why should the property owners suffer the loss of a perfectly good door?

    Also just because someone is mentally defective does not mean they are not dangerous.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    DJF's being facetious! He's trolling us!

  • ||

    Art-P.O.G.,

    And I want a psych report on William "Lefiti Markets Are Magical" Edward Morris, stat. He has to be the second most dedicated troll I've ever seen behind LoneWacko. Maybe more dedicated, even.

    I'd go so far as to say that WLMAMEM is more dedicated to trolling than Teh Whacko. Whacko is at least link whoring, what the fuck does WLMAMEM get out of it? (Other than stroke material, of course.)

    And + is a regular troll as well. The same bitchy syntax as ed and Fred.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    "Also just because someone is mentally defective does not mean they are not dangerous."
    Witness, for example, DJF!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Oh, I see Epi beat me to that joke (re: William) way upstream.

  • ||

    Its obvious that the police did not show up on their own, they were called by the management who had a unwelcome guest on their property.

    The article obviously omitted the part where the store owners ordered Love to leave, and where he told them to fuck off and that they'd have to drag him out.

  • ||

    Idaho has plenty of open space for the independant minded individualist. Some counties still have no zoning and no building code. If you want to live off the grid and not be bothered for being a bushrat, it is a lovely place. The state motto (away from the urban areas) is "leave me the fuck alone!" Most of Alaska has way too much winter for the typical freedom minded person.

  • ||

    Are you saying that force cannot be used to protect property rights?

    I invite you to taze the next Jehovah's Witness on your doorstep and find out.

  • DJF||

    """The article obviously omitted the part where the store owners ordered Love to leave, and where he told them to fuck off and that they'd have to drag him out."""

    No, I would say in all probability the store owner tried to enter the toilet but found it locked, he attempted to get a response and did not, and noticed that someone was moving around inside the toilet. He or she called the police and they also attempted to get a response but saw that someone was moving around so they tried to force the person to open the door using pepper spray.

    Unfortunately the person did not open the door and the police were forced to break in ruining the door and placing the toilet out of service until things could be repaired

    I do find it strange that some here will take the time to respond with troll but won't answer my question, do property owners have the right to use force to get a trespasser off their property?

  • ||

    if he was handicapped and had the mind of a 10 yr. old, why did they let him walk to dollar general alone?

    When I was 10 (and presumably had the mind of a 10 year old), my parents let me walk to the store alone, and I frequently did so. (I also walked to school every day, BTW.) Were they guilty of child abuse and neglect? Would they have been guilty if I'd been deaf as well? I don't think so.

  • DJF||

    """I invite you to taze the next Jehovah's Witness on your doorstep and find out."""

    Are you saying that if the Jehovah Witness refuses to leave your property you don't have the right to force him or her to leave?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Come the revolution, the first 50 of ya'll to show up (except for Lefiti, LoneWacko, DJF et. al)are invited to pitch tents at my central Ohio compound and man the barricades, tend the crops and brew the beverages.
    BYOB, guns, ammo and weed.
    No fatties.
    No Irish need apply.

  • ||

    No, I would say in all probability the store owner tried to enter the toilet but found it locked, he attempted to get a response and did not, and noticed that someone was moving around inside the toilet. He or she called the police and they also attempted to get a response but saw that someone was moving around so they tried to force the person to open the door using pepper spray.




    Episiarch anticipated the response to this: "What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the fucking pepper spray."

    Don't cops ever think? (No, of course not; they "follow procedure." And procedure says that if a person doesn't respond, the only reasonable conclusion is that he's a perp and is therefore a worthy target for pepper spray.)

  • ||

    No Irish need apply.

    Didn't want to live in Ohio anyway, cockbag.

  • ||

    Oh, and something like 83% of the land in Idaho is public owned, mostly USFS and BLM with a little state land here and there. If you purchase wisely, you can have a million acres of federal land at your disposal.

  • DJF||

    """Episiarch anticipated the response to this: "What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the fucking pepper spray.""'

    Then both you and Episiarch would be wrong since you obviously did not read the story. Where it says that not only did the police see movement but Love physically held the door shut so obviously nobody would mistake that for someone unconscious or having a heart attack.

    """"I wait and sit toilet," Love's note read. "I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard."

    At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. """

  • ||

    The "cherry picking" argument: So, because there are some decent cops who behave decently, we should ignore the brutality and abuses of trust and power that occur on a routine basis by the police? Is that the argument?

    That's not going far enough. In addition to that, we should ignore all the "decent" cops that will stand shoulder to shoulder with the bad cops, hide evidence, threaten witnesses, confiscate and "lose" video, etc.

  • Rich||

    > I do find it strange that some here will take the time to respond with troll but won't answer my question, do property owners have the right to use force to get a trespasser off their property?

    I'll go out on a limb and say "yes".

  • Cactus||

    They'd have never caught him if he was a greased up deaf guy.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    In case anyone's interested... from today:

    Police Sodomize Man With Taser"

  • ||

    Got a link? I don't think I should google that from work.

  • medic001||

    here's where I might air on the side of the cops...only if, this gentleman, with the mental capacity of Otis, was 6 foot 5 and over 350 lbs. And the ONLY reason i say that is...I have a patient that is autistic, and he's a big em, but strong. If he can do the damage he does when I'm trying to get a WEIGHT...I can imagine a tard that feels bad, and is scared is going to react pretty negatively to someone pounding on his bathroom stall door. So he might be a big threat.

    But thats where my empathy for the police ends. They should have been able to subdue this guy with out so much force. I could put a 200 lb Six foot Marine in to a hold, and I'm 5'8 145 lbs.

    Good training and good technique.

    These cops are irresponsible and a hazard. A taser is not a billy club, or a replacement for good common sense.

    They could have handled this differently. Maybe like standing in the stall next to him and looking over and saying...


    "Hey Buddy...you ok in there?"

    Well maybe thats why I was a paramedic and not a f*n cop.

    -Doc

  • service manual||

    he was not feeling well and was in the bathroom for about a half-hour before the police "throw poison under the door."

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