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This Is What Happens to a Deaf, Mentally Disabled Man in America
Bill Flanigen notes that police in Mobile, Alabama, recently used pepper spray and a stun gun on a deaf, mentally disabled man who overstayed his welcome in a Dollar Store restroom, then charged him with disorderly conduct for provoking the assault. Alabama's definition of disorderly conduct is similar to the one used in Massachusetts, and it's not clear which part the police thought applied to sitting on a toilet too long. Engaging in "tumultuous behavior"? Obstructing "pedestrian traffic"? Making "unreasonable noises"?
Love, who has a mental age of about 10, says he was not feeling well and was in the bathroom for about a half-hour before the police "throw poison under the door." Soon they broke into the bathroom, he recalled in an account he wrote for his family, and "the police get the tazz three strings in my stomach, chest and hand and hit my head." Later, he says, "I saw police laugh at me." Citing a police spokesman, the Mobile Press-Register reports that "the officers' decision to take Love to jail—even after they discovered his disability—as well as their conduct throughout the incident is still under investigation."
|7.28.09 @ 6:28PM|#
Would anyone care to defend the proposition that these officers shouldn't be charged with assault, battery, and false arrest? Anyone at all?
|7.28.09 @ 6:37PM|#
I'm guessing Love isn't a friend of the president's and that he couldn't credibly tell the cops, "you don't know who you're messing with."
|7.28.09 @ 6:41PM|#
Look, Dollar Store employee, we're doing everything we can to weed them out, but some of these retards are very clever.
jasno|7.28.09 @ 6:43PM|#
Oh come on R.C. - they were just following standard procedures, so it's not really their fault. As for the guy who wrote the procedures, well, he doesn't work for the department anymore. Since it's obviously not the police department's fault, this guy must have brought the whole thing on himself.
William|7.28.09 @ 6:49PM|#
But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers. Oops, that doesn't shore up Mr. Sullum's relentlessly anti-police arguments, does it? Libertarians cherry pick their evidence and concentrate on the most outrages abuses of police (or state) power and generalize from them to "AMERICA.' In Sullum's case, I guess it's a living, but a very dishonest one.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 6:49PM|#
Look, Dollar Store employee, we're doing everything we can
to weed them out, but some of these retards are very
clever.
I laughed. I'm going to hell.
jasno|7.28.09 @ 6:49PM|#
You know, I was joking, but then I read the
AP Article:
Levy said officers were justified in using force against Love since he had an umbrella.
"The officers really worked within the limits of our level-of-force policy," he said. "We had no information about who this guy was."
|7.28.09 @ 6:51PM|#
But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled
persons who are treated kindly by police officers.
What, like you?
hmm|7.28.09 @ 6:53PM|#
But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled
persons who are treated kindly by police officers. Oops, that
doesn't shore up Mr. Sullum's relentlessly anti-police arguments,
does it? Libertarians cherry pick their evidence and concentrate on
the most outrages abuses of police (or state) power and generalize
from them to "AMERICA.' In Sullum's case, I guess it's a living,
but a very dishonest one.
I don't care if you are mother fucking Theresa for your entire
life. If you do not correct such an egregious action after the fact
with more egregious apology you need to be shot for the good of
mankind. Plain and simple. No investigation, no we will wait and
see. Straight up we fucked up dood, here's a lifetime supply of
banana splits w/ sprinkles. Can we get you anything else?
jasno|7.28.09 @ 6:53PM|#
William, you're either a troll or an ass.
Not only was this a clearly unjustified use of force, but the
department is already trying to cover it's ass(see my last
post).
95%(hell, probably more) of cops are great. But when they fuck up,
they need to be held to a higher standard. Sullum, Balko and Co.
aren't anti-police - they're anti-bad-police. There's a big
difference.
|7.28.09 @ 6:57PM|#
"The officers really worked within the limits of our
level-of-force policy," he said. "We had no information about who
this guy was."
So I kinda got worked up about that sentence and was ready to
lecture about the common law notion of "taking a victim as you find
him," and then I went back and read the sentence before it:
Levy said officers were justified in using force against Love
since he had an umbrella.
Seriously? An umbrella? A FUCKING umbrella?
+|7.28.09 @ 6:58PM|#
This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is, literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon, but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel better about their smug selves.
|7.28.09 @ 7:00PM|#
Seriously? An umbrella? A FUCKING umbrella?
Why are there two blog posts on this.
In the other post I already explained the dangers umbrellas pose as
exemplified in Batman.
|7.28.09 @ 7:03PM|#
This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if
not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is,
literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky
thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon,
but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel
better about their smug selves.
It is adds more proof to the assertions that these incidents aren't
really all that isolated (unless your point is that it's an
"isolated incident" because this guy is the only deaf and mentally
handicapped man that was a victim of excessive force in the recent
past), and that the cops aren't accountable when they do fuck
up.
Already they are defending the use of a taser because he had an
umbrella.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 7:03PM|#
This sad story proves what, exactly? To borrow a phrase (if
not a cliché) from Reason's most talented propagandist, it is,
literally, an isolated incident. It makes for a nice, snarky
thread, but what else? It will be forgotten by tomorrow afternoon,
but, having commented on it, H&R's peanut gallery will feel
better about their smug selves.
The incident may be isolated. The way it is handled is not and will
not be any different.
For the record isolated is becoming a broader and broader term with
respect to these incidents.
|7.28.09 @ 7:03PM|#
We need more facts. Specifically, does the stun gun cure
constipation? I hear Nutrasweet likes it messy, I nominate him for
the experiment.
;-)
jasno|7.28.09 @ 7:05PM|#
I'm not sure every article on Reason needs to 'prove'
anything.
This is an isolated incident in that I'm pretty sure it's the first
time police have tasered a deaf-retard in a public restroom.
However, as an example of faulty police tactics and training,
coupled with a lack of basic common sense and respect for the
people they serve, this is definitely not an isolated incident.
+|7.28.09 @ 7:05PM|#
hmm | July 28, 2009, 6:53pm | #
If you do not correct such an egregious action after the fact with
more egregious apology you need to be shot for the good of
mankind....Straight up we fucked up dood, here's a lifetime supply
of banana splits w/ sprinkles.
This is "hmm" on drugs.
|7.28.09 @ 7:10PM|#
William, you're either a troll or an ass.
I thought William was simply parodying the common law-and-order
response to such stories. It's depressing that you might very well
be right.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 7:10PM|#
Hmm doesn't do drugs. He doesn't need to. Talking about one's self in the third person is pretentious. Saying "one's self" is also pretentious.
|7.28.09 @ 7:11PM|#
I'm pretty sure it's the first time police have tasered a
deaf-retard in a public restroom
Well, jasno,
this incident doesn't say anything about a bathroom, but it's
from 2005. I'm sure we could find more with a little additional
searching.
|7.28.09 @ 7:13PM|#
In the other post I already explained the dangers umbrellas
pose as exemplified in Batman.
Look, if he were carrying the umbrella near, say, United World
Security Council diplomats, then I would have no issue
with the officers' actions...
+|7.28.09 @ 7:14PM|#
these incidents aren't really all that isolated
Yes, they are, if "isolated" has any meaning...you know:
unusual, rare, extraordinary, strange, uncommon, unique,
atypical...I could go on, but someone with your intelligence, as
evidenced by your ability to comment on H&R, must surely get it
by now.
Now that I've served you, I have better things to do. Have fun with
this one, drones.
|7.28.09 @ 7:16PM|#
Use of the Taser and the pepper spray appear to be justified according to the department's policy, [Levy] said.
* * *
Police were called to the store at 12:22 p.m. after someone reported that a man had been in the bathroom for more than an hour behind a locked door, said Cpl. Charles Bagsby, another police spokesman.
When the officers arrived, they pounded on the door but got no answer, Bagsby said. They pounded again. No answer.
Being in a bathroom for an hour and not responding to people
pounding on the door obviously now constitutes probable cause to
believe the crime of mopery with intent is being committed. No
possible reason to think "the department's policy" is whacked.
|7.28.09 @ 7:17PM|#
Yes, they are, if "isolated" has any meaning...you know:
unusual, rare, extraordinary, strange, uncommon, unique,
atypical
Being improperly/inappropriately tasered by police isn't all that
rare or uncommon. So no jackass, it isn't ISOLATED.
|7.28.09 @ 7:20PM|#
Being in a bathroom for an hour and not responding to people
pounding on the door obviously now constitutes probable cause to
believe the crime of mopery with intent is being
committed.
What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack,
and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for
the fucking pepper spray.
Mister DNA|7.28.09 @ 7:20PM|#
If this incident is indeed "isolated", it's only because there aren't enough mentally handicapped deaf people around to get tased and pepper-sprayed by the cops. What with all the uppity grandmothers, pregnant women and epileptics out there disturbing the peace, I'm sure deaf people aren't that big of a priority.
William|7.28.09 @ 7:23PM|#
"Sullum, Balko and Co. aren't anti-police - they're
anti-bad-police. There's a big difference."
That's why the lede to Sullum's post makes it sound as if such
treatment of the mentally disabled is common in America, right?
Give me a break. This is sensationalist "journalism" at it's worst.
It's just propaganda. But propaganda beats thinking for you bozos,
doesn't it?
|7.28.09 @ 7:23PM|#
What if the person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart
attack, and was lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops
go for the fucking pepper spray.
In fariness, the Alabama Press-Register reported that the police
used pepper spray after they knocked repeatedly, no one answered,
and saw someone moving around:
"I wait and sit toilet," Love's note read. "I think about someone try break door. I hold door hard."
At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under the door, indicating that there was someone inside. They then shot pepper spray under the door.
"The police arrive General Dollar and throw poison through under the door," Love's note continued. "I can smell poison and I'm amazing and shock."
|7.28.09 @ 7:30PM|#
That's why I said "possibly moving", Tom. A stroke victim could
be moving, and they'd see movement and still pepper spray
them.
I'd think that one would be worried that the person inside was
hurt--that would be my first thought, and not "PEPPER
SPRAY!!!"
But propaganda beats thinking for you bozos, doesn't
it?
You have our number, dude!
Space Fiend|7.28.09 @ 7:32PM|#
There is no possible way spraying pepper spray into a confined
space, which almost certainly has poor ventilation, without some
kind of threat being established.
That could easily cause complications which would kill a person,
especially if they were having health problems, as the police
acknowledged they knew nothing about what was going on
inside.
Secondly, the police sprayed the room before they even had a tool
to take advantage of it - they sprayed and then went to get a tire
iron. In other words, they just wanted to cause someone pain and
anguish for no purpose, even this mentally disabled man was easily
able to recover by the time they came back.
Space Fiend|7.28.09 @ 7:33PM|#
Missed a clause in the first sentence there, should be "poor ventilation, can be justified..."
Mister DNA|7.28.09 @ 7:35PM|#
That's why the lede to Sullum's post makes it sound as if such treatment of the mentally disabled is common in America, right? Give me a break.
You're new here, aren't you? In spite of the gravity of the
subject. Reason's writers often approach topics with
irreverence. The lede is a play off the...
You know, fuck it. If you don't get it, it's your problem, not
mine.
|7.28.09 @ 7:35PM|#
What is fucked up is that this case is not likely to make the
news. There won't be a beer summit with the Messiah and whatever
stupid prick pulled this off decided to pick of a deaf
retard.
I like that a magistrate refused the charges. I wonder if the cop
knew the victim was a deaf retard when he filed the charges. I mean
jesus, doesn't anything embarass these assholes. I'd like to learn
more about this cop.
|7.28.09 @ 7:51PM|#
All right, I have to know the answer to this.
Every so often, on a potentially inflammatory topic, we get a new
troll, always going by one common first name. WTF is up with this?
Sockpuppets, or real trolls who just happened to see Reason.com for
the first time via a link to that HNR post?
|7.28.09 @ 7:55PM|#
Some poor lady got stuck on her toliet for a week. Somehow, the
Australians were able to resolve the situation without violence. It
doesn't appear that chemical warfare was the first choice to
resolve the situation.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535048,00.html?test=latestnews
Charles|7.28.09 @ 8:03PM|#
The first comment from here:
http://www.wkrg.com/alabama/article/tased-off-the-toilet/217854/Jul-28-2009_6-28-pm/
debbie4 Says:
Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:00 pm
this doesnt make sense….if he was handicapped and had the mind of a 10 yr. old, why did they let him walk to dollar general alone? i knew when i first heard about this that a lawsuit would come of it, its typical…he had stomach problems the mom said, it all sounds strange. i think the police acted in the proper way…i guess they should stop all people doing something wrong or illegal or suspicious and ask if they are impaired, disabled, mentally handicapped, etc..llke they have all day to do that…we're so quick to complain about them, and also when they dont show up fast enough…the police arent necessarily there to "protect" us, that was his mothers job while she sat her butt on the couch at home…the police are there to enforce the law.
There is nothing so bad that could happen to my state or country that I wouldn't recognize, at some level, that we deserve it.
Fluffy|7.28.09 @ 8:05PM|#
Tomorrow's headline:
"Police Tase Mute Man Who Would Not Give Name"
Transcript of Police Radio Tape:
Officer Typical: Damn it, tell us your name!
Mute Guy: Nnnnnhhhh! Nnnnhhhhh!
[Taser sound effect]
[Pause]
[Taser sound effect]
Officer Typical: Your name! Give us your god damn name!
Mute Guy: Nnnnnnhhhh! Nnnnnnnhhhh!
[Taser sound effect]
[Mute guy reaches for pencil and paper in desperate bid to write
name down.]
Officer Average: Typpie, he's going for your gun!
[BANG BANG BANG BANG!]
Untermensch|7.28.09 @ 8:12PM|#
Quað polizei:
Society must be rid of untermensch.
What do you have against me?
max hats|7.28.09 @ 8:16PM|#
There is nothing so bad that could happen to my state or country that I wouldn't recognize, at some level, that we deserve it.
Honestly, the creeping authoritarianism in this country is making
me more and more inclined to bail. My great grandfather on one side
came here to escape persecution in the old country, and my
ancestors on the other side came here for economic opportunity.
Four generations, the old countries have economies almost as good
as ours with a lot less inequality, the people there don't make a
habit of invading random countries, and police don't even carry
guns on their belt. In my eyes, the competitive advantages of
freedom, security and good government are fading fast compared to
much of the rest of the first world. Four generations from now,
Ireland will be fine. I'm not so sure I can say the same thing for
America.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 8:28PM|#
What countries are those?
Ireland specifically, most of Europe generally. Throughout the
first world, police carrying firearms on their person is the
exception rather than the rule. We are the freaks.
|7.28.09 @ 8:28PM|#
Four generations from now, Ireland will be fine.
And how about that Blasphemy law?
Sean W. Malone|7.28.09 @ 8:28PM|#
"the police arent necessarily there to "protect" us"
Cept for... you know.. the whole "To Serve & Protect" mantra,
sure.
|7.28.09 @ 8:30PM|#
Ireland specifically, most of Europe generally.
Not in my experience. England and Ireland, but in the european
countries I've lived in and visited cops carry guns.
Besides, Ireland is a complete dump.
|7.28.09 @ 8:30PM|#
max, work is very, very hard to come by in Europe, and you can
forget getting a visa anyway, unless your company sponsors you, and
even then it's not usually permanent. If you have two Irish
grandparents from Ireland you can get an Irish passport
very easily, and that gives you the ability to work anywhere you
want as long as you want within the EU. However, if you're not a
Mick with recent immigrant granparents, you're shit out of
luck.
Not to say that authoritarianism here isn't disturbing; it is. But
getting out isn't as easy as we'd all hope. And honestly, cops are
cops everywhere.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 8:36PM|#
The cops carry guns in most of Europe. England is an
exception.
That's an understatement. You see cops totting MP5s all over
Europe, and not just in airports.
Sean W. Malone|7.28.09 @ 8:36PM|#
I still struggle with finding any alternatives. I have little
hope for Friedman's Seasteading thing, mostly because I think it
should be completely built by now if the people running that show
had any ability to get it done, and I don't want to live in New
Hampshire.
Besides, from what I understand most of the original NH residents
are pretty annoyed with the FSP people.
But I've been all over Europe and I wouldn't live there unless I
had millions of dollars and could slip in unnoticed by
customs.
Not sure where else I might move though. Asia perhaps... Could live
like a king in Thailand or Manila... Fuck.
Sean W. Malone|7.28.09 @ 8:37PM|#
And for the record, yes, most cops not only carry "guns", they tend to carry big-ass motherfucking guns.
|7.28.09 @ 8:38PM|#
I think I'll go to New Zealand when the shit hits the fan here. And live like a hobbit.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 8:38PM|#
And how about that Blasphemy law?
I had to google that. Wow. But by all accounts, it's kind of a
weird technicalism and probably not for this world.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0728/p06s07-woeu.html
By his reckoning, Ireland has been violating its constitution
for the past 48 years - since the passage of a 1961 law on
defamation that mentioned blasphemy but was vague in its language
and non-specific about potential penalties. When the government
decided to update defamation law, he argues, it was legally bound
to include the new criminal charge of blasphemous libel, punishable
by a fine of €25,000 ($35,000).
Irish legal scholars have generally agreed with his interpretation.
"I don't like the idea of a crime of blasphemy, but the minister
was right," says Eoin O'Dell, a senior lecturer at the School of
Law, Trinity College Dublin. But atheists and free speech advocates
have been irate.
Not that I'm trying to defend it, but I don't think it's a sign of
creeping totalitarianism. It's a fluke if anything, unless no one
changes it and then some people start enforcing it, which I
definitley don't expect to happen. More to the original point, as
far as trendlines of awesomeness, I see America's pointing a bit in
the negative and has the capacity to go sharply negative. I don't
see the old world being in such peril. If I do end up putting down
roots in the United States, I really worry about what I might be
setting up future generations for. This country might start getting
really scary. There's a standing consensus here that the president
should have more or less dictatorial powers, and most people seem
to believe that police should be allowed to do whatever they want.
Most of the country either does not believe making government work
well is possible, or does not believe it's worth the effort. Long
story short, I think we might be fucked.
Idle thoughts, which I am pointlessly writing on a public blog.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 8:40PM|#
Not to say that authoritarianism here isn't disturbing; it is. But getting out isn't as easy as we'd all hope. And honestly, cops are cops everywhere.
My bail plan is either Canada or Australia, both of which have very
liberal immigration policies for skilled workers.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 8:42PM|#
I think I'll go to New Zealand when the shit hits the fan
here. And live like a hobbit.
Jesus, the shit could hit the fan here in a huge way and still not
be as fucked up as NZ laws.
|7.28.09 @ 8:44PM|#
max, the cops are pretty much as bad in Canada, and you don't
even have the vestiges of 4th Amendment protection up there. If
they want to roadblock and search your car, guess what? They can
and will.
I don't know about Australia.
hmm|7.28.09 @ 8:44PM|#
Fuckem' I ain't leavin. No need to plan to. I'll stop participating and wait for the consequences long before I run.
IceTrey|7.28.09 @ 8:45PM|#
So they just shoot in pepper spray without any idea what is happening inside? What if someone had been having a heart attack? Fucking cops.
|7.28.09 @ 8:46PM|#
Max, I (sadly) live in the UK, and it is a country that is
moving very strongly towards an authoritarian state. Generally with
the full endorsement of the middle classes.
Australia is a nice country (esp. Melbourne) and offers a good
balance of lifestyle and economic activity. The cops their carry
guns, love shooting people, and are no strangers to
corruption.
I admit that it is difficult to have a positive long term outlook
about the US with the massive debt etc. Europe has a lot of
population problems though. I would live in Denmark again though,
and may move to Switzerland next year.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 8:50PM|#
Both countries definitely have their problems, and no where is
exactly perfect. Australia is down with every dumb war we start,
and Canada has big problems integrating its immigrant population.
One thing America is truly amazing at is it's integration.
I'm not so much bothered by roadblocks or a lack of an amendment we
have pretty much eradicated ourselves. What scares me about
America's direction is the possibility of just becoming fairly
shitty all in all. I don't think becoming a failed state is really
an option, not for the foreseeable future anyway, but with all our
institutions being so incredibly inefficient and so much going on
to drag us down, I just don't see a positive trendline for this
country, especially relative to a lot of the first world.
|7.28.09 @ 8:50PM|#
But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled persons who are treated kindly by police officers.
The de-institutioalized mental patients (crazy street people to
you) would disagree with your assessment of LEO understanding of,
and compassion for, the mentally disabled.
Do you even think before you comment?
|7.28.09 @ 8:52PM|#
If not New Zealand, then the Yukon!
My tiger friend has got the sled,
And I have packed a snack.
We're all set for the trip ahead.
We're never coming back!
We're abandoning this life we've led!
So long, Mom and Pop!
We're sick of doing what you've said,
And now it's going to stop!
We're going where it snows all year,
Where life can have real meaning.
A place where we won't have to hear,
"Your room could stand some cleaning."
The Yukon is the place for us!
That's where we want to live.
Up there we'll get to yell and cuss
And act real primitive.
We'll never have to go to school,
Forced into submission,
By monstrous, crabby teachers who'll
Make us learn addition.
We'll never have to clean a plate,
Of veggie glops and goos.
Messily we'll masticate,
Using any fork we choose!
The timber wolves will be our friends.
Well stay up late and howl
At the moon, till nighttime ends,
Before going on the prowl.
Oh, what a life! we cannot wait,
To be in that arctic land,
Where we'll be masters of our fate,
And lead a life that's grand!
No more of parental rules!
We're heading for some snow!
Good riddance to those grown-up ghouls!
We're leaving! Yukon Ho!
|7.28.09 @ 8:55PM|#
One question that any prospective American ex-pat must ask themselves is "do they have the NFL where I am going?"
|7.28.09 @ 8:56PM|#
This is too depressing to even contemplate. First, somewhere
there is a Union and some fucking hack who is going to come out and
say they were "just following proceedures". Second, as a Roman
historian once said, "people don't just become depraved". I
seriously doubt these clowns were just law abiding wonderful cops
who one day decided that it was a good idea to use tear gas and
tazers to get someone out of a bathroom. God only knows what other
horrible things they have done and gotten away with.
If I were this kids father, I would catch one of these fucks coming
out of a bar or in a dark ally fucking taser them until they died
or begged me to kill them.
|7.28.09 @ 8:56PM|#
Forget that libertymike, one simply must know about the availability of rugby, cricket, and golf! :)
Sean W. Malone|7.28.09 @ 8:57PM|#
I'm personally less worried about cops (seeing as I don't live a
particularly reckless lifestyle and I'm not a deaf-mute who can't
talk myself out of situations) than I am about the economic
stuff.
If I ever consider having kids, I cannot in any kind of reasonable
conscience justify shoving trillions of dollars of debt burden on
them. Not to mention, I don't personally want to be fucked by it as
hard as I know I already will be.
Personally, what I'm hoping to do is to figure out a way to get
enough money to set up my various business endeavors & affairs
remotely via the tubes, and then try as best I can to live off-grid
anywhere. Preferably somewhere exotic and pretty. Rural New Zealand
would be fine...
But for me, the big question is how the hell I'm going to get into
a position to do that effectively. I'm at the beginning of my
career and as far as it goes now with the economy as it is, and the
government's fucked up response, I'm not sure it's reasonable at
all to expect being able to find any way to be really financially
successful in the near future.
|7.28.09 @ 8:57PM|#
mike, violent ground acquisition games such as football are in fact crypto-fascist metaphors for nuclear war.
|7.28.09 @ 8:59PM|#
I think maybe Costa Rica might not be a bad ex pat choice. The government is democratic. Like most Central Americans they hate communists. It is beautiful. The women are beautiful. The dollar goes far. And it is just corrupt enough to bribe your way out of trouble.
|7.28.09 @ 9:00PM|#
"I'm personally less worried about cops (seeing as I don't live
a particularly reckless lifestyle and I'm not a deaf-mute who can't
talk myself out of situations) than I am about the economic
stuff."
I used to think that way to. But then I see things like this and
the small town mayor outside of Washington who got his house
terrorized and his dogs shot. And I think maybe I am kidding myself
thinking cops are nothing to worry about.
|7.28.09 @ 9:01PM|#
Rural New Zealand would be fine...
Better get a like-minded wife and a good internet connection then.
You won't find any attractive women or intellectual stimulation
local to those parts.
|7.28.09 @ 9:07PM|#
dbcooper-
I hear it ain't so bad in the Pacific Northwest. Oregon and
Washington are two states that have a healthy respect for
individual privacy.
As I said to MNG on another thread earlier, one's ability to go
undetected in a given area is an important criteria in assessing
the area's relative freedom.
|7.28.09 @ 9:07PM|#
And I think maybe I am kidding myself thinking cops are
nothing to worry about.
The cops are nothing to worry about, until they mistakenly raid
your house, or decide they don't like you when they pull you over,
or when they're the one setting records for DUI arrests and decide
to arrest you for "slurred speech", or...
I could go on.
Mister DNA|7.28.09 @ 9:08PM|#
As much as I entertain notions of packing up and moving to a
country more receptive to the concept of liberty, I don't think
I'll ever be able to do it.
In a sense, I support what the Free State Project is doing, but
damn it, it's the fucking Nanny Staters who need to be the ones
thinking, "You know, there's too much freedom where I live, I think
I'll pack up and move to a more repressive location."
|7.28.09 @ 9:09PM|#
Episiarch,
Yes, scoff, you who have never built a time machine or
transmorgrifier.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 9:11PM|#
I hear it ain't so bad in the Pacific Northwest. Oregon and Washington are two states that have a healthy respect for individual privacy.
Speaking as a resident - if you're a social liberal, the pacific
northwest is great. But if you're a full on libertarian as your
handle implies, you will hate it. Individual liberties are
relatively good and have big prospects for improvement. But
business rights are by common consensus subject to capricious
changes. See the indoor smoking laws, and all the taxes that keep
getting thrown on restaurants.
Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure why we in Seattle seem
to focus all our anti-business ire pretty much entirely on
restaurants. That is weird.
|7.28.09 @ 9:14PM|#
Unless you want to leave the country, you really need to go to Alaska. It is so big up there, you can go places where no one will bother you. As my friend who lived in Alaska used to say, "there are a lot of people in Alaska who don't want to be found."
|7.28.09 @ 9:15PM|#
Epi, even though I liked Carlin, my funny bone was never tickled, never mind scratched, by his baseball/football skit.
Cop Cock|7.28.09 @ 9:16PM|#
Oh William, you useless fuck except for those beautiful lips, I want you to use the cherry shade of lipstick tonight. + you get out the cinnamon. Where is Tulpa so we can make it a true rainbow party?
|7.28.09 @ 9:16PM|#
Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure why we in Seattle
seem to focus all our anti-business ire pretty much entirely on
restaurants. That is weird.
How do you mean? We have an amazing restaurant industry here, far
better than one would normally expect out of a town this size. The
food is phenomenal, and there are a ton of restaurants. They don't
seem overly hampered by anti-business sentiment.
Also, I'll note that the gun laws here in Washington are excellent
too.
Alex|7.28.09 @ 9:23PM|#
But let's not forget about the many deaf, mentally disabled
persons who are treated kindly by police officers.
But let's not forget the many Nazis who never gassed any
Jews.
...
What do I win?
max hats|7.28.09 @ 9:26PM|#
I think there's tremendous demand for restaurants, and Seattle
attracts a diverse crowd with different perspectives on food, and
Seattle culture encourages people to try all those different kinds
- there's going to be a good restaurant industry regardless.
What I mean, though is that everytime something is going to be
built, boom, new restaurant tax. Sound transit? Restaurant tax. New
stadium? Restaurant tax. And the smoking ban was aimed squarely at
restaurants and bars. I have no doubt that whatever replaces the
viaduct will end up raising the price of dining out. Somehow
restaurant tax became the easy tax here.
Ben Kenobi|7.28.09 @ 9:26PM|#
This is one of the most disgusting things I've read in a long time. I'll say this about criminals and cops, at least with criminals you usually know what they want and they often aren't in it just to hurt you. With cops it seems they're just sadistic fucks.
|7.28.09 @ 9:29PM|#
If you are some race hustler 70% white con man who has a job at Harvard and get mistreated by the cops, the President will make sure they make amends. If you are a deaf mentally disabled guy in Alabama who gets tear gassed and tazered for staying in the bathroom too long, you are not getting anything. Besides, this guy was probably just a typical white person. And it is not like he hasn't benefited from white male privilege his whole life. The Obamasiah has more important things to do than worry about his white ass.
|7.28.09 @ 9:33PM|#
Somehow restaurant tax became the easy tax here.
I think you got why when you said:
there's going to be a good restaurant industry
regardless
They can, so they do.
I haven't been anywhere particularly interesting in a while...last
thing was Txori.
Jesse Walker|7.28.09 @ 9:33PM|#
William, you're either a troll or an ass.
He's the troll/ass formerly known as Lefiti. Occasionally he
changes his handle to trick other commenters into attempting to
engage him in debate. While it's possible that he really doesn't
recognize the allusion in the title (not lede) of Jacob's post,
he's probably playing dumb to get a rise out of people. It's best
to ignore him.
Warty|7.28.09 @ 9:55PM|#
And here I thought William was being sarcastic. How 'bout that, Lefiti managed to write in a different voice! I'm so proud of him.
|7.28.09 @ 10:04PM|#
How about Montana? Lots of space to not be noticed, no whacky
daylight issues like Alaska, not too socialist like Vermont, not
too Masshole like New Hampshire, not too far like New
Zealand...
Let's face it, there's no where in the solar system where you're
getting away from the U.S. Government. Find the best state and
invite your friends.
Robert|7.28.09 @ 10:28PM|#
One question that any prospective American ex-pat must ask themselves is "do they have the NFL where I am going?"
Ireland has the National Football League. Of course it's Gaelic
football.
|7.28.09 @ 10:31PM|#
Let's face it, there's no where in the solar system where you're getting away from the U.S. Government.
I disagree. The U.S. government can't even make it back to the
Moon.
|7.28.09 @ 10:36PM|#
Nick, i agree 100%. too bad i'm stuck with 11 million other assholes in new jersey
|7.28.09 @ 10:37PM|#
"Besides, this guy was probably just a typical white
person."
Nope he's black. Thanks for playing, please try again.
http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/local_news/Deaf_Man_Tased_Investigation_Sparked
|7.28.09 @ 10:51PM|#
I thought about Canada too, but really it's altogether worse
than here - it only seems better because there aren't as many
people. Getting in is tricky though. Basically unless you wash up
on the shore saying "political asylum (or asylum de politique)"
you're stuck with some pretty heavy entry requirements. The best
thing to do is work to turn the tide here. It's bad, but can be
turned around.
As to the article there was a similar incident in Boston a few
months back (I wish I could find the link) as well as a very
violent incident in Chicago involving a bartender (lost the link
there too).
hmm|7.28.09 @ 11:02PM|#
http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/local_news/Deaf_Man_Tased_Investigation_Sparked
I await his invitation to the white house for the 09 summit on race
relations between cops pigs and Americans.
max hats|7.28.09 @ 11:06PM|#
Getting in is tricky though. Basically unless you wash up on the shore saying "political asylum (or asylum de politique)" you're stuck with some pretty heavy entry requirements. The best thing to do is work to turn the tide here. It's bad, but can be turned around.
Not entirely - if you're an english speaker with a bachelors degree
and 4 years of work experience in a broad range of
categories and are between 21-49, you're in.
http://www.workpermit.com/canada/individual/skilled.htm
If deficient in any of those areas, relations in Canada, French
language skills, having experience living in Canada, having a
spouse with educational certification or living experience in
Canada, or having a job lined up already in Canada can
compensate.
inDglass|7.28.09 @ 11:11PM|#
I keep hearing people defend this kind of crap, saying it is extremely rare statistically but just gets a lot of attention when it happens. However, I see disgusting reports like this almost weekly. And regardless of how "rare" these sort of incidents are, it is unacceptable. We should accept no form of tyranny, no matter how "small."
hmm|7.28.09 @ 11:14PM|#
All the "run away, run away" people remind me of the Hollywood fucktards that threatened to leave if Bush was re-elected.
Fist of Etiquette|7.28.09 @ 11:56PM|#
Nope he's black. Thanks for playing, please try
again.
For the love of God, will someone please tell me what color the
cops were?
|7.29.09 @ 12:02AM|#
Listen I live in Idaho and Larry Craig just opened and office in
Eagle where I live. No more using the can in my town. What's that
tapping?
BTW, why didn't they spray the clown at Harvard? He is a serious
ass hole, although thats can't be against the law or Washingtom
would be a ghost town.
Tulpa|7.29.09 @ 12:03AM|#
The cops probably didn't know he was deaf or retarded because
that's what all black people sound like.
Getting rid of slavery was not a good idea.
Ray Gardner|7.29.09 @ 1:27AM|#
The whole Harvard affair could have a slight rewrite and be a
great Tarantino movie along the lines of "Reservoir Dogs."
Everyone's wrong, everyone's a jerk, and they all die violent
deaths.
I'm at a loss for what movie would be a rewrite for this bathroom
issue though. Forrest Gump?
Art-P.O.G.|7.29.09 @ 2:27AM|#
I'm at a loss for what movie would be a rewrite for this bathroom issue though. Forrest Gump?
Sling Blade, ah reckon.
All right, who's sockpuppeteering, Tulpa?
And I want a psych report on William "Lefiti Markets Are Magical"
Edward Morris, stat. He has to be the second most dedicated troll
I've ever seen behind LoneWacko. Maybe more dedicated, even.
Art-P.O.G.|7.29.09 @ 3:53AM|#
Someone plz link to a good PSA about the hazards and folly of interweb trolling.
threeofclubs|7.29.09 @ 5:49AM|#
the police offices being immediately sacked and charged with criminal acts, now that would be an isolated incident.
Untermensch|7.29.09 @ 6:38AM|#
I disagree. The U.S. government can't even make it back to the Moon.
If they thought there was tax revenue to get there, they would.
|7.29.09 @ 8:59AM|#
Wow, lowlife cops. Its PUNK cops like this I just love to hear
about in the newst hat get clipped in the line of duty!
RT
www.anon-web-tools.tk
DJF|7.29.09 @ 9:20AM|#
So now Reason Mag is against property rights?
Its obvious that the police did not show up on their own, they were
called by the management who had a unwelcome guest on their
property. But Reason now says that some guy can stay on someone
elses property as long as they want and cannot be removed.
Fluffy|7.29.09 @ 9:33AM|#
But Reason now says that some guy can stay on someone elses
property as long as they want and cannot be removed.
They aren't objecting to the removal, they're objecting to the use
of the pepper spray and taser.
Pepper spray and the taser should be non-lethal means of subduing
an agitated person who is physically attacking a police officer or
another person. They should not be a means of securing compliance
with police demands.
That's why the police statement that the use of force here met
department guidelines is so offensive. It's probably TRUE. This
department probably has guidelines that allow these items to be
used not to defend officers, but to torture people into complying
with police orders. [Yes, if a police officer is allowed to walk up
to a line of protestors sitting down in the street and say, "If you
don't get up and walk out of the street, I will mace you until you
do!" that is a threat to use torture.]
|7.29.09 @ 9:44AM|#
The "cherry picking" argument: So, because there are some decent cops who behave decently, we should ignore the brutality and abuses of trust and power that occur on a routine basis by the police? Is that the argument?
DJF|7.29.09 @ 9:44AM|#
Are you saying that force cannot be used to protect property
rights? The pepper spray was used in an attempt to force the
trespasser from the property so that the police would not have to
damage the door which is valuable property of the owners. Why
should the property owners suffer the loss of a perfectly good
door?
Also just because someone is mentally defective does not mean they
are not dangerous.
|7.29.09 @ 10:05AM|#
Art-P.O.G.,
And I want a psych report on William "Lefiti Markets Are
Magical" Edward Morris, stat. He has to be the second most
dedicated troll I've ever seen behind LoneWacko. Maybe more
dedicated, even.
I'd go so far as to say that WLMAMEM is more dedicated to trolling
than Teh Whacko. Whacko is at least link whoring, what the fuck
does WLMAMEM get out of it? (Other than stroke material, of
course.)
And + is a regular troll as well. The same bitchy syntax as ed and
Fred.
Citizen Nothing|7.29.09 @ 10:07AM|#
"Also just because someone is mentally defective does not mean
they are not dangerous."
Witness, for example, DJF!
|7.29.09 @ 10:20AM|#
Its obvious that the police did not show up on their own,
they were called by the management who had a unwelcome guest on
their property.
The article obviously omitted the part where the store owners
ordered Love to leave, and where he told them to fuck off and that
they'd have to drag him out.
|7.29.09 @ 10:23AM|#
Idaho has plenty of open space for the independant minded individualist. Some counties still have no zoning and no building code. If you want to live off the grid and not be bothered for being a bushrat, it is a lovely place. The state motto (away from the urban areas) is "leave me the fuck alone!" Most of Alaska has way too much winter for the typical freedom minded person.
|7.29.09 @ 10:27AM|#
Are you saying that force cannot be used to protect property
rights?
I invite you to taze the next Jehovah's Witness on your doorstep
and find out.
DJF|7.29.09 @ 10:28AM|#
"""The article obviously omitted the part where the store owners
ordered Love to leave, and where he told them to fuck off and that
they'd have to drag him out."""
No, I would say in all probability the store owner tried to enter
the toilet but found it locked, he attempted to get a response and
did not, and noticed that someone was moving around inside the
toilet. He or she called the police and they also attempted to get
a response but saw that someone was moving around so they tried to
force the person to open the door using pepper spray.
Unfortunately the person did not open the door and the police were
forced to break in ruining the door and placing the toilet out of
service until things could be repaired
I do find it strange that some here will take the time to respond
with troll but won't answer my question, do property owners have
the right to use force to get a trespasser off their property?
|7.29.09 @ 10:29AM|#
if he was handicapped and had the mind of a 10 yr. old, why
did they let him walk to dollar general alone?
When I was 10 (and presumably had the mind of a 10 year old), my
parents let me walk to the store alone, and I frequently did so. (I
also walked to school every day, BTW.) Were they guilty of child
abuse and neglect? Would they have been guilty if I'd been deaf as
well? I don't think so.
DJF|7.29.09 @ 10:30AM|#
"""I invite you to taze the next Jehovah's Witness on your
doorstep and find out."""
Are you saying that if the Jehovah Witness refuses to leave your
property you don't have the right to force him or her to leave?
Citizen Nothing|7.29.09 @ 10:34AM|#
Come the revolution, the first 50 of ya'll to show up (except
for Lefiti, LoneWacko, DJF et. al)are invited to pitch tents at my
central Ohio compound and man the barricades, tend the crops and
brew the beverages.
BYOB, guns, ammo and weed.
No fatties.
No Irish need apply.
|7.29.09 @ 10:35AM|#
No, I would say in all probability the store owner tried to enter the toilet but found it locked, he attempted to get a response and did not, and noticed that someone was moving around inside the toilet. He or she called the police and they also attempted to get a response but saw that someone was moving around so they tried to force the person to open the door using pepper spray.
Episiarch anticipated the response to this: "What if the person
inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was lying on
the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the fucking pepper
spray."
Don't cops ever think? (No, of course not; they "follow
procedure." And procedure says that if a person doesn't respond,
the only reasonable conclusion is that he's a perp and is therefore
a worthy target for pepper spray.)
|7.29.09 @ 10:43AM|#
Oh, and something like 83% of the land in Idaho is public owned, mostly USFS and BLM with a little state land here and there. If you purchase wisely, you can have a million acres of federal land at your disposal.
DJF|7.29.09 @ 10:44AM|#
"""Episiarch anticipated the response to this: "What if the
person inside had suffered a stroke, or a heart attack, and was
lying on the floor, possibly moving? No, the cops go for the
fucking pepper spray.""'
Then both you and Episiarch would be wrong since you obviously did
not read the story. Where it says that not only did the police see
movement but Love physically held the door shut so obviously nobody
would mistake that for someone unconscious or having a heart
attack.
""""I wait and sit toilet," Love's note read. "I think about
someone try break door. I hold door hard."
At that point, Bagsby said, the officers saw movement from under
the door, indicating that there was someone inside. """
|7.29.09 @ 10:59AM|#
The "cherry picking" argument: So, because there are some
decent cops who behave decently, we should ignore the brutality and
abuses of trust and power that occur on a routine basis by the
police? Is that the argument?
That's not going far enough. In addition to that, we should ignore
all the "decent" cops that will stand shoulder to shoulder with the
bad cops, hide evidence, threaten witnesses, confiscate and "lose"
video, etc.
Rich|7.29.09 @ 11:06AM|#
> I do find it strange that some here will take the time to
respond with troll but won't answer my question, do property owners
have the right to use force to get a trespasser off their
property?
I'll go out on a limb and say "yes".
Sean W. Malone|7.29.09 @ 2:32PM|#
In case anyone's interested... from today:
Police Sodomize Man With Taser"
medic001|8.1.09 @ 1:51AM|#
here's where I might air on the side of the cops...only if, this
gentleman, with the mental capacity of Otis, was 6 foot 5 and over
350 lbs. And the ONLY reason i say that is...I have a patient that
is autistic, and he's a big em, but strong. If he can do the damage
he does when I'm trying to get a WEIGHT...I can imagine a tard that
feels bad, and is scared is going to react pretty negatively to
someone pounding on his bathroom stall door. So he might be a big
threat.
But thats where my empathy for the police ends. They should have
been able to subdue this guy with out so much force. I could put a
200 lb Six foot Marine in to a hold, and I'm 5'8 145 lbs.
Good training and good technique.
These cops are irresponsible and a hazard. A taser is not a billy
club, or a replacement for good common sense.
They could have handled this differently. Maybe like standing in
the stall next to him and looking over and saying...
"Hey Buddy...you ok in there?"
Well maybe thats why I was a paramedic and not a f*n cop.
-Doc
service manual|8.9.09 @ 5:06PM|#
he was not feeling well and was in the bathroom for about a half-hour before the police "throw poison under the door."
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