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On Second Thought, Ignorance of the Law Is a Pretty Good Excuse
Kenneth Rau, the North Dakota man who appears to be the first American busted for possession of the psychedelic herb Salvia divinorum, received a three-year "deferred imposition of sentence" this week, meaning his record will be wiped clean if he successfully completes three years of probation. Rau, who bought eight ounces of salvia leaf online not long after North Dakota banned the plant in 2007, says he did not realize he was committing a crime, a plausible claim that is reinforced by the fact that the leaves police discovered in his home were clearly labeled "salvia." He originally was accused of possession with intent to distribute, a charge that could have resulted in a prison sentence of up to 10 years. But the charge was reduced after police looked into the typical dosage for unfortified leaf, as opposed to salvia extract or leaves treated with the extract. Burleigh County Assistant State's Attorney Cynthia Feland recommended the deferred sentence, noting Rau's clean criminal record and the recency of the ban. If Rau had been arrested before the ban took effect, of course, his punishment would have been even lighter.
[via the Drug War Chronicle]
Tym|4.24.09 @ 5:28PM|#
With 10s of thousands of laws on the books, how can anyone not be ignorant of most of it.
|4.24.09 @ 5:31PM|#
I think the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" doctrine come
from a notion that a homogenous society has a generally widely
accepted moral code based on cultural norms. Hence a citizen's
understanding of the law would simply be in line with his basic
sense of right and wrong.
It strikes me that in a rather more diverse society such as ours
solons need to be rather more careful in crafting laws to avoid
imposing the norms of one group on another without really
determining if anyone actually suffers material harm as a result of
a breach of those norms.
One way to do this, of course, is to resist the temptation to say
"there oughtta be a law" every time one's notion of sin is shown to
be in evidence.
As I have said before, it may be a virtue to hold oneself to a
strict moral code but it is almost certainly a vice to impose it by
force on others.
Paul|4.24.09 @ 5:32PM|#
I've been arguing for a long time that with our modern, byzantine system of laws and regulations, ignorance of the law is an excuse.
Paul|4.24.09 @ 5:34PM|#
Oh, and the next time a government official or cop (yes, it's happened with both) tells me "well, I can't tell you how to proceed because I simply don't know if what you're about to do is illegal, but if you violate the regulations, you'll be fined/arrested", I'm going to harangue them about "ignorance of the law".
SpongePaul|4.24.09 @ 5:39PM|#
With 10s of thousands of laws on the books, how can anyone not
be ignorant of most of it.
__________________________________________
no shit eh! i think anyone here who is sane can prolly come up with
a list of fewer than 100 laws, and i would bet the country that it
would work better and be more free and more efficient. without
impacting our lives at all
PIRS|4.24.09 @ 5:47PM|#
"With 10s of thousands of laws on the books, how can anyone not
be ignorant of most of it."
I'm surprised we have never had a head of the IRS who violated IRS
rules.
|4.24.09 @ 5:49PM|#
I'm surprised we have never had a head of the IRS who
violated IRS rules.
Oh, I'm sure we have. They just don't get nailed for it like us
peons would.
|4.24.09 @ 5:55PM|#
Kenneth Rau, the North Dakota man who appears to be the
first American busted for possession of the psychedelic herb Salvia
divinorum, received a three-year "deferred imposition of sentence"
this week, meaning his record will be wiped clean if he
successfully completes three years of probation
So noone will ever know that he was convicted in the first
place... except for everyone.
the innominate one|4.24.09 @ 6:08PM|#
If Rau had been arrested before the ban took effect, of
course, his punishment would have been even lighter.
Despite the link, I'm not positive we can rely on that for much
longer.
|4.24.09 @ 6:11PM|#
I totally agree with this column, it seems like the police force
and prosecution systems are overwhelmingly difficult to overcome. I
hope we have large reforms so that the rights of the defendant are
protected more soon.
On another note though, I'd like to know why there is little to no
coverage on the torture issue here at Reason. While I'm more of a
Bill Maher Liberaltarian, I'm not sure why the Libertarians of this
site aren't touching this issue, I would think it would be higher
up than I've seen. I found a whole article here on Jackie Chan's
stupid comments but still found nothing on torture? And I hope you
play both ways, Democrats and Republicans who ok'd this deserve to
go down in flames on this one be they Pelosi or Bush.
|4.24.09 @ 6:26PM|#
"it may be a virtue to hold oneself to a strict moral code but
it is almost certainly a vice to impose it by force on
others."
Isn't this the basis for all Law? Aren't all laws a moral code? I
ask because at first I thought, "I agree". Then it occurred to me
that Law was basically the imposition of a moral code. I really
like Law, but upon reflection it is, most certainly, a moral
imposition by force.
|4.24.09 @ 6:30PM|#
"On another note though, I'd like to know why there is little to
no coverage on the torture issue here at Reason."
Step away from the crack pipe. I have posted on at least two
different articles about "torture" in the past week.
|4.24.09 @ 6:35PM|#
"I'm surprised we have never had a head of the IRS who violated
IRS rules.
Oh, I'm sure we have. They just don't get nailed for it like us
peons would."
Dude, the Secretary of the Treasure IS a confirmed tax cheat, (and
idiot incapable of understanding Turbo Tax) he was being
facetious.
|4.24.09 @ 6:44PM|#
@ Marshall Grill
Some amount of law is required for the existence of freedom.
Anarchy is too unpredictable, and you have no rights when in the
grip of the looting mob. Freedom requires the law and an entity to
whom it is given to enforce it.
However, the Idea is that a limited amount of government will
exist, and that the extent of it's power is limited, and it is
incapable of significantly interfering in the lives of the
citizens. The Federal Register (the collection of books on which
the law of the US is printed) was 80,000 + pages in 2008.
80,000 pages of law. Does that sound like a free society, or a
totalitarian state?
You can't go to the bathroom without the government getting
involved.
|4.24.09 @ 6:53PM|#
I am not implying what you say is not true. I think the Federal
government is a bigger oppressor than it is defender of
liberty.
My point, is that ultimately, Law=force. The appropriate amount is
the question, which I did not mean to be answering, only
questioning.
|4.24.09 @ 6:54PM|#
People need to stop getting their informaiton on Salvia Divinorum from You Tube and learn the truth about this amazing herb. I recommend reading this article: http://www.salviasociety.org/salvia-medicinal-uses.htm Isn't it ironic that they are banning an herb which is the only herb that can actually cure DRUG addictions? Are you kiddin me with this? Unreal.
Ooops|4.24.09 @ 7:24PM|#
"Step away from the crack pipe. I have posted on at least two
different articles about "torture" in the past week."
Here's another:
A new Rasmussen survey suggests that the Democrats are barking up
the wrong tree with their obsessive interest in the waterboarding
of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. At this point, at least, common sense
reigns:
* 58 percent of voters say the Obama administration's recent
release of DOJ memos "endangers the national security of the United
States." Fewer than half as many 28 percent, think it "helps
America's image abroad." (This suggests that Obama's apology tour
hasn't been especially well-received, either.)
* 70 percent also say America's legal system either does a good job
of weighing security against individual rights, or puts too much
emphasis on individual rights at the expense of security. Only 21
percent say the legal system is "too concerned about protecting
national security."
* Only 28 percent want the Obama administration to investigate how
the Bush administration treated terrorists. 58 percent want no such
investigations.
* Obama's decision to close Guantanamo Bay is now disapproved of by
a 46-36 margin, with support for Obama's action declining.
Ooops|4.24.09 @ 7:27PM|#
Forgot the link:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics2/58_say_release_of_cia_memos_endangers_national_security
"Rau, who bought eight ounces of salvia leaf online not long after
North Dakota banned the plant in 2007"
Because a really shitty high is better than reality if you're stuck
in North Dakota.
|4.24.09 @ 7:56PM|#
* 58 percent of voters say the Obama administration's recent
release of DOJ memos "endangers the national security of the United
States." Fewer than half as many 28 percent, think it "helps
America's image abroad." (This suggests that Obama's apology tour
hasn't been especially well-received, either.)
90% of Americans are dimwitted poo throwing monkeys...but to be
fair, 100% of humanity is within the margin of error of the
PTM.
MNG|4.24.09 @ 8:24PM|#
Wow, oops, do you want to make some more arguments from
popularity?
If you do, I'd like to point out that in the popularity contest in
2008 Obama won, and he now has a very favorable rating.
|4.24.09 @ 10:45PM|#
Big Mike-
Some amount of law is required for the existence of freedom.
Anarchy is too unpredictable, and you have no rights when in the
grip of the looting mob.
Meanwhile, the "law" has taken another $10 trillion from
us in just the last six months... I'd prefer to take my chances
with a "looting mob" that doesn't have a 2
million+ Army- not to mention nukes and F-22s.
Lester Hunt|4.24.09 @ 10:54PM|#
The old ignoratio juris principle arose at a time when law closely followed (what was then) common sense. Sadly, it no longer does.
Elemenope|4.24.09 @ 11:05PM|#
Courts are starting to catch up. The recent contract of adhesion
cases have hinged in part on whether it is reasonable to believe
not only that a person can understand the terms, but even on
whether it is likely they read the terms at all.
And how does a government these days notify a populace it has
passed a law such that is reasonable all have heard about the
change? Methinks that would take nightly news + dead tree news +
facebook + town crier, these days, at least.
PhysicsFanBoy|4.24.09 @ 11:38PM|#
to be fair, 100% of humanity is within the margin of error of the [Poo Throwing Monkey]
Not Steven Hawking!
Richard Stands|4.25.09 @ 1:20AM|#
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on
criminals.
When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking
laws."
- Ayn Rand
Paul|4.25.09 @ 2:12AM|#
On popularity contests:
Democracy brought us two terms of George W. Bush.
Term limits got him out.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 2:12AM|#
Ayn Rand would be a bit more interesting if she were original, even a smidge.
JB|4.25.09 @ 2:13AM|#
This needs to be shouted from the rooftops: Obama is subjecting
those who commit victimless crimes to years of torture.
Only complete and utter fuckwads like Obama think getting anally
raped for years is not torture. Him and his wife can't get enough
of it.
Obama should be prosecuted for promoting torture. As long as people
are subjected to anal rape for victimless crimes, those government
officials are complicit in the torture of American citizens.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 2:14AM|#
Term limits got him out.
Nah, a third term was not in the cards for him, even if it were
possible.
Richard Stands|4.25.09 @ 2:58AM|#
Ayn Rand would be a bit more interesting if she were original, even a smidge.
Agreed that Rand was not the first to voice that sentiment. But
then again, most important commentary is reformulation of earlier
work, perhaps with incremental improvements. The reason I find her
work valuable is that she's reached quite a few people with
it.
What would you suggest for a more interesting or original take on
government manufacturing crimes and criminals in order to enhance
its control?
Suki|4.25.09 @ 9:49AM|#
Oh, and the next time a government official or cop (yes,
it's happened with both) tells me "well, I can't tell you how to
proceed because I simply don't know if what you're about to do is
illegal, but if you violate the regulations, you'll be
fined/arrested", I'm going to harangue them about "ignorance of the
law".
I know this one. Those rules are for us, not for them.
Don't think I am skilled enough to add Rand as a second name to my
handle yet :(
dhex|4.25.09 @ 9:59AM|#
"What would you suggest for a more interesting or original take
on government manufacturing crimes and criminals in order to
enhance its control?"
naked lunch.
specifically "the county clerk" section.
Art-P.O.G.|4.25.09 @ 10:14AM|#
What would you suggest for a more interesting or original take on government manufacturing crimes and criminals in order to enhance its control?
|4.25.09 @ 10:46AM|#
Eric Carlson and Joan Wagar, A,K,A, Doubleclick and Mrs Dash,(
yes those are there nicknames they gave each other.) admitted to
poisoning me while I was a plasma donor back in 2005.
Eric Carlson pedofied me behind prison walls and then framed me as
a pedophile on march 26th 2007, I caught the crime on a audio
recorder I put in Joan's purse.
there were people in authority helping them with this and nobody in
authority will help they pretend nothing happened and refuse to
investigate this.
Eric Carlson changed his hair color and his name to Gashel and
Clackamas Walmart was hiding him from my Family by pretending He's
someone else but this is not hidden, only ignored by the
authority's and media
I'm disabled from being poisoned and the hospitals refuse to admit
I'm poisoned.
My Family is in danger from these people and I have no other
recourse but to make these charges public.
My name is Terry Wagar,Im from Portland Oregon and I'm backing up
these charges.
I have been threatened with harassment charges by a Sargent Walker,
She is a Portland Police officer stationed at the OHSU hospital,
for the non crime of reporting a multi murder conspiracy within
that hospital.
They dont give a s4!t Joan and Eric was poisoning a plasma
donor!
And how many god damn John Ray's in authority are there in portland
oregon!
You damn serial killer.
Where did Mrs Dash keep her stash? in A Garlic Salt Shaker!
What did Doubleclick do with his Dick? You Pedo!
Why you hiding A body double for Clackamas Walmart?
Cover this up Sgt Walker!
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/11/382778.shtml
Naga Sadow|4.25.09 @ 11:08AM|#
Terry,
Meds dude! You need lots and lots of meds. As for the emotional
appeal . . .
"What has two thumbs and doesn't give a crap. (points thumbs at
self) Naga Sadow. How ya doin'."
Naga Sadow|4.25.09 @ 11:12AM|#
Anyways . . .
I was in court for a traffic offense back in February 08. I can't
remember what the crime was so bear with me. The prosecutor in
Gulfport actually let someone off for whatever it was cuz "There
seems to be a gap of knowledge. Even I wasn't aware of the change
last year. I move to dismiss all charges." The judge agreed!
Suki|4.25.09 @ 11:47AM|#
OMFG!
Just finished reading a passage that John edited and added a bit to
in Suki I.
Suki gets a ticket in DC for smoking in an unapproved public area
(crossing a street on the Memorial Mall) that escalates to open
flame, littering and prostitution.
I don't see Naga's and other's experiences going over in DC very
well, but I can see future fiction becoming reality.
|4.25.09 @ 12:50PM|#
Re: Irrelevent post by Ooops @ April 24, 2009, 7:24pm
Wow! I disagree with the majority. Is this the same majority who
believes in intelligent design and visiting
spacemen?
Golly gee, I do hate to be in the minority.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 12:50PM|#
The reason I find her work valuable is that she's reached
quite a few people with it.
Fair enough. That, of course, can be a double-edged sword. She's
reached many people, but also her name can immediately turn some
people off (due to other prior associations with it).
What would you suggest for a more interesting or original take
on government manufacturing crimes and criminals in order to
enhance its control?
Well, the 'original' in print, so to speak, was Tacitus, I believe,
who wrote way back in the 1st century c.e.: "The more corrupt the
state, the more numerous the laws."
Cardinal Richelieu, prick that he was, was pretty honest about the
intention: "If you give me six lines written by the most honest
man, I will find something in them to hang him".
|4.25.09 @ 1:33PM|#
I'm just really happy to not be in any libraries in Portland Or.
today.
Come ta think of it, Seattle's only a few hours from Portland.
hmmmmm
MNG|4.25.09 @ 1:47PM|#
""What has two thumbs and doesn't give a crap. (points thumbs at
self) Naga Sadow. How ya doin'.""
hehe, funny
" my answer was Harry J. Anslinger."
Art, do you think Anslinger was not sincere in his (admittedly wild
and crazy) concerns about drugs? I think he was sincere.
Dave W.|4.25.09 @ 1:50PM|#
On another note though, I'd like to know why there is little
to no coverage on the torture issue here at Reason.
For the most part HitNRun luvs the military industrial
complex.
Back in the day, when I was still a n00b here and had not yet
suffered my first ban, their opposition to the Iraq War was tepid
at best.
I take heart in the fact that they no longer ban me. Baby
steps.
Lester Hunt|4.25.09 @ 2:07PM|#
"Ayn Rand would be a bit more interesting if she were original,
even a smidge."
She was indeed original. This comes out into the foreground if you
read her in connection with people who influenced her, such as
Nietzsche. She doesn't just borrow ideas, she morphs them. (The
same thing is true of Nozick, but in his case one reads him in
connection with Rand.)
wingnutx|4.25.09 @ 2:08PM|#
Obama legal team wants defendants' rights limited
WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration is asking the Supreme
Court to overrule long-standing law that stops police from
initiating questions unless a defendant's lawyer is present,
another stark example of the White House seeking to limit rather
than expand rights.
That is change you can believe in.
Kolohe|4.25.09 @ 2:23PM|#
I was going to make a flippant remark about Mr. Wagar, until I
looked at that Indymedia link. He's not Lonewacko crazy, he's
actually crazy crazy.
I have a feeling that whatever's going on there is not going to end
well.
Art-P.O.G.|4.25.09 @ 2:39PM|#
I think he was sincere.
I don't know. He was apparently a pathological liar, but sometimes the most hardcore law n' order types have the most...interesting ways of looking at their fellow citizens.
Naga Sadow|4.25.09 @ 2:47PM|#
Art POG,
interesting ways of looking at their fellow
citizens.
I read that as serfs.
|4.25.09 @ 3:19PM|#
I take heart in the fact that they no longer ban me. Baby
steps.
Just try harder, Dave. You're off your game.
|4.25.09 @ 3:24PM|#
Cardinal Richelieu, prick that he was
Dim: Yes, and I've a few questions I'd like to ask Cardinal
so-called Richelieu.
Cardinal: Bonjour Monsieur Dim.
Dim: So-called Cardinal, I put it to you that you died in December
1642.
Cardinal: That is correct.
Dim: Ah ha! He fell for my little trap.
(Court applauds and the Cardinal looks dismayed.)
Cardinal: Curse you Inspector Dim. You are too clever for us
naughty people.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 3:29PM|#
This comes out into the foreground if you read her in
connection with people who influenced her, such as Nietzsche. She
doesn't just borrow ideas, she morphs them.
As someone who is quite familiar with Nietzsche, I would say rather
that she didn't just borrowed ideas, she raped them.
Lester Hunt|4.25.09 @ 3:32PM|#
Oh, that's right, you're the one who said, on another thread, that Richard Wagner had no musical talent.
|4.25.09 @ 3:40PM|#
kolohe, I agree. That situation sounds like it will be in the news in a big way. The voices are gonna get the best of him I suspect.
Naga Sadow|4.25.09 @ 3:46PM|#
Elemenope,
If Nietzche didn't wanna get raped, he wouldn't have written down
his ideas in that sexy book.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 3:51PM|#
If Nietzsche didn't wanna get raped, he wouldn't have
written down his ideas in that sexy book.
ROFL!
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 4:15PM|#
Oh, that's right, you're the one who said, on another
thread, that Richard Wagner had no musical talent.
I believe my exact words were:
Wagner was a megalomaniacal, anti-Semitic, bombastic, no-talent
hack with the aesthetic sense of a five-year-old finger
painter.
and
Wagner is the musical Paul Verhoeven. I wouldn't go so far as
Nietzsche seems to and call him the musical Uwe Boll.
|4.25.09 @ 4:19PM|#
Lacking a weekend political thread* I'll post this here.
Obama Rejects Truth Panel
President Obama rebuffed calls for a commission to investigate alleged abuses under the Bush administration in fighting terrorism, telling congressional leaders at a White House meeting yesterday that he wants to look forward instead of litigating the past.
* Hint for Reason staff.
Suki|4.25.09 @ 4:21PM|#
For the most part HitNRun luvs the military industrial
complex.
Where is that 'blog so I can stay away from it?
|4.25.09 @ 4:23PM|#
Dave W. is back? How soon before the triumphant return of
joe?
My previous post is an example of why joe's return
Ain't.
Gonna.
Happen.
MNG|4.25.09 @ 4:46PM|#
"Lacking a weekend political thread*"
What happened to the weekend thread? Was it a weekend political
thread, or just the weekend thread?
And what happened to David Weigel?
Barack Obama|4.25.09 @ 5:26PM|#
"* Hint for Reason staff."
I don't want to be seen going after Bush admin officials for
torture and violation of civil liberties. After all, I might have
to do those things myself sometime. Hope! Change!
economist|4.25.09 @ 5:29PM|#
"Dave W. is back? How soon before the triumphant return of
joe?
My previous post is an example of why joe's return
Ain't.
Gonna.
Happen."
After joe spent the pre-election season telling everyone here that
Obama would be no more radical than Clinton*, trying to defend his
argument caused to him to have a stroke and become completely
unhinged.
*As I've stated before, Clinton's relative moderation probably had
more to do with an opposed Congress than any virtues of his
own.
economist|4.25.09 @ 5:30PM|#
Plus, of course, while he never minded it when we criticized Bush, he couldn't stand it when we were skeptical of HIS president.
economist|4.25.09 @ 5:39PM|#
"On popularity contests:
Democracy brought us two terms of George W. Bush.
Term limits got him out."
In all fairness, under a "pure" democracy, he would have lost in
2000. Then again, we would have had President Al Gore. Then again
(again), maybe it would have been better for the
not-even-marginally-free market candidate to have been president
when the shit hit the fan. Not shilling for democracy, here (I've
always been more of a constitutional republican.), just putting it
out there.
|4.25.09 @ 5:39PM|#
Wagner is the musical Paul Verhoeven.
Uh, you're going to need to qualify this, dude. Exactly what
Verhoeven films have you seen? Soldier of Orange? The
Fourth Man? Flesh and Blood? Robocop?
Total Recall?
And if you don't like trash written by Joe Eszterhas, that's fine,
but those movies are still fun for what they are and Verhoeven did
a good job with them too.
Richard Wagner|4.25.09 @ 5:59PM|#
"Wagner is the musical Paul Verhoeven."
OK, who said that? Take it back, before I unleash the flame war on
you.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 6:04PM|#
Epi --
That's precisely the point. Verhoeven was technically good, and he
could do great social satire, but! one might hesitate to
call the product "art".
Ben|4.25.09 @ 6:06PM|#
...received a three-year "deferred imposition of sentence" this week, meaning his record will be wiped clean if he successfully completes three years of probation.
Doesn't really guarantee that. Look at what they do to sex
offenders; they get the same situation -- adjudication deferred --
then years later, the legislature decides to "register" them and
instantly they have a lifetime record that will prevent them from
getting good jobs, credit, even insurance, prevent them from living
in various places, interfere with their ability to cross borders,
earn them enmity from neighbors no matter how far they move or try
to reboot their lives, permanently brands their entire families,
kids, etc.
There's no guarantee that deferred adjudication of any variety will
protect anyone, because ex post facto punishment is perfectly
acceptable these days. They just say "it's not punishment, it's
registration" and that's the end of it -- that's been to the
Supreme Court and been stamped with the Unholy Seal of
Unconstitutional Permission.
It's just like the no-fly list and the
no-buy
list. You get on one, good luck getting off. Lots of money,
lots of lawyers, maybe you have a chance. But probably
not.
Just lists, baby. No conviction, sentencing, or prosecution
required. Adjudication irrelevant. Think about it... drug offender
lists, coming to a legal system near you any day now. Soon as one
of these ignoramuses in the legislature thinks of it, little doubt.
After all, you don't want a nasty, dirty druggie in your
neighborhood, do you? It's for the children!
The justice system is dead. It's just a punishment system
now.
But hey, vote Democratic or Republican. Why stop now, when we've
almost killed our society of principles? Just a little bit
further...
|4.25.09 @ 6:23PM|#
one might hesitate to call the product "art"
Hmm, so you haven't seen most of them. If you have, I retract my
statement, but judging Verhoeven on Showgirls or The
Hollow Man is a mistake. Go back and watch the early stuff
(though in my opinion you can skip Spetters).
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 6:32PM|#
I haven't seen films from his early Dutch period, if that's what
you mean. I've seen everything from Robocop forward, which
is about half his corpus. If your point is that his early work
sheds an actual artistic light, then fine, but the fact remains
that somewhere he lost it, and how. Robocop and
Starship Troopers were able, if not brilliant, satire, and
technically strong, but artistically pretty weak (in a way that,
say, Cronenberg, who works with somewhat similar material, is
not).
And the fit is even better from the Nietzsche/Wagner parallel
because Nietzsche opined that Wager grew poor as he grew big,
losing the artistic sense in favor of bombast, he didn't start that
way (as an artist).
|4.25.09 @ 6:50PM|#
I haven't seen films from his early Dutch period, if that's
what you mean.
Highly recommended.
Robocop and Starship Troopers were able, if not brilliant,
satire, and technically strong, but artistically pretty weak (in a
way that, say, Cronenberg, who works with somewhat similar
material, is not).
You seem to be defining art as you see fit. "Technically strong"
seems to refer to his extremely stylized direction--but isn't that
part and parcel of the "art" of direction? The guy does violence
like Sam Peckinpah on acid, and it's a beautiful thing to behold.
Robocop, Total Recall (to which Cronenberg was
attached before Verhoeven), and Starship Troopers, besides
all having excellent direction and production, engage (as you said)
in satire, mindfucking, and social themes.
He didn't "lose it", he just...evolved. So has Cronenberg. He's
done with mutation and psychoplasmics and has gone on to other
things. I'm not thrilled about it because I love his old stuff, but
directors change.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 7:04PM|#
You seem to be defining art as you see fit.
Well, duh. But not arbitrarily, if that's what you mean. I think
that technical excellence is a differentiable quality from artistic
merit; a person can be brilliant at camera placement and actor
motivation and set design and so forth and still create nothing
that says anything. (see: Michael Bay, the master of the
technically flawless vapid popcorn flick, or Tony Scott [to a
lesser extent])
engineer|4.25.09 @ 7:09PM|#
"Robocop and Starship Troopers were able, if not brilliant,
satire, and technically strong"
He raped Heinlein repeatedly in Starship Troopers. For that, he
will suffer forever in the deepest pit of hell.
wingnutx|4.25.09 @ 7:25PM|#
He raped Heinlein repeatedly in Starship Troopers. For that,
he will suffer forever in the deepest pit of hell.
Not soon enough, not long enough, and not deep enough.
Richard Stands|4.25.09 @ 7:25PM|#
Kenneth Rau is lucky he got off with only probation. If the prosecution had had Inspector Dim on the case, even Cardinal Richelieu (entering at 4:46) would not have been able to save him from the chair.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 7:54PM|#
He raped Heinlein repeatedly in Starship Troopers. For that,
he will suffer forever in the deepest pit of hell.
I never understood this attitude that works are somehow sacrosanct
from reinterpretation. If someone takes a solid text, and does
something interesting (albeit not what was originally intended)
with it, what's the problem?
At the least, the movie introduced a new generation to Heinlein,
albeit in a way that once they read a little would cause a bit of
confusion and surprise. At best, it was an ironic commentary on
what Heinlein was saying in the first place, which is what most art
is: commentary or reaction to other art.
What I feel was *lacking* from the film was a unified artistic
sense to drive the picture; to me it seemed that Verhoeven decided
to do many things in the film only because they seemed neat or
cool, and was less concerned with whether it all hung together.
wingnutx|4.25.09 @ 8:07PM|#
does something interesting (albeit not what was originally
intended) with it
I just don't think he accomplished that.
It looked like he took bits that worked for him in Robocop, then
haphazardly slapped them all over a new script that he wasn't much
interested in.
He could have made a hell of a good, dumb action movie out of the
source material, but he didn't even accomplish that much. It was
just a lousy movie.
|4.25.09 @ 8:17PM|#
He raped Heinlein repeatedly in Starship
Troopers.
He had no intention of making Heinlein's Starship
Troopers. He wanted to make a big, violent space war drama
with good-looking actors, and that's what he did. Just because he
used a known story as a springboard doesn't mean interpretation was
his point*.
a person can be brilliant at camera placement and actor
motivation and set design and so forth and still create nothing
that says anything
You just described Dario Argento yet he is widely considered to be
a brilliant artist. Sometimes, how it looks is the
point.
Michael Bay, the master of the technically flawless vapid
popcorn flick, or Tony Scott
What?!? Scott, OK, I can see that. But Bay's work is rife with
horrible acting, continuity flaws, idiotic angles done solely for
"novelty", and overbearing CGI. Bay is EVIL, is tell you.
EVIL.
* Yes, yes, I know I have attacked Will Smith for the same thing
with I am Legend. Well, fuck Will Smith.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 8:25PM|#
You just described Dario Argento yet he is widely considered
to be a brilliant artist. Sometimes, how it looks is the
point.
If it is the point, then it is the point. My point is, when it
isn't the point, it doesn't take the work outside of mere technical
mastery into the realm of art. To me, at least, art is about
intentionality of the artist. If they intend to create beauty, then
how it looks is the point. If they have some other goal, then how
it is judged should be at least partially contingent upon that
object.
Yes, yes, I know I have attacked Will Smith for the same thing
with I am Legend. Well, fuck Will Smith.
You do know that the original film was truer to the original point
until the studio insisted on the alternative, stupider ending,
right? I hardly find it fair to blame Will Smith for that.
Kolohe|4.25.09 @ 8:30PM|#
* Yes, yes, I know I have attacked Will Smith for the same
thing with I am Legend. Well, fuck Will Smith.
If they would have stuck with the alternate ending (i.e. the 'real'
ending that was in the original story and makes the title make
sense) (which is on the DVD), it would have salvaged the entire
project.
I'm pretty sure the decision to dumb down the ending was not Will
Smith's as Imdb does not show a director or producer credit for
that movie in his name. (It does however, show a producer credit
for 'Untitled Karate Kid Remake' - well, fuck Will Smith.)
Kolohe|4.25.09 @ 8:41PM|#
Missed it by that much. Anyways, one other thing.
He wanted to make a big, violent space war drama with
good-looking actors, and that's what he did
If this is your opinion on why Troopers did or did not suck, you
undercut it above by pointing to Hollow Man as something that
sucks. Hollow Man was an 'empty suit' of nifty almost primordial
CGI effects, and on those terms it was a decent flick. However,
unlike (some) other Verhoeven works, there was no 'there' there; It
was hollow, so to speak, of any underlying subtext.
So was Showgirls, but the difference between that and Hollow Man
was that any 'nifty' parts of that movie were definitely made
earlier and better by just about everybody. Including
self-described porn producers.
|4.25.09 @ 8:43PM|#
I have not seen the alternate ending--the DVD I watched was an
Academy copy cut specifically for Academy Awards voters (which is
why I was able to see it so early) and had no extras.
If--and this is a big if--they actually had the proper ending, that
does redeem it significantly, though they fucked with a lot of
other important shit.
I hardly find it fair to blame Will Smith for that.
Yet I still do...imagine that. Smith stands only a few steps behind
Bay in my rankings. I, Robot puts him there
automatically.
|4.25.09 @ 8:47PM|#
you undercut it above by pointing to Hollow Man as something
that sucks
I wasn't pointing to Hollow Man as something that sucks; I
was pointing to it as something that a lot of people think
sucks. I actually enjoyed it for what it was.
Showgirls is an (unintentional? intentional?) farce, so
awesome in its over-the-top nature that it almost--but not
quite--becomes sublime in its efforts. It's thoroughly enjoyable if
you don't take it at all seriously.
MaterialMonkee|4.25.09 @ 8:56PM|#
Hey
Does anyone know a safe site where can you buy this Salvia
divinorum stuff on the web?
It sounds like fun
Cheers :)
Dave W.|4.25.09 @ 8:57PM|#
Dave W. is back? How soon before the triumphant return of
joe?
I liked joey bee a lt, but I was always perceived as a way
different thing than him, I thought.
MaterialMonkee|4.25.09 @ 8:59PM|#
How soon before the triumphant return of joe?
I swear he's on Wired.com
ok so there probably are a few million joes on the web but it well
looked like him
MaterialMonkee|4.25.09 @ 9:01PM|#
On the whole Saliva thing
any thoughts on this site?
http://www.salviaonline.co.uk/salvia.htm#leaf
a bag of oregano or mind altering high :)
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 9:04PM|#
Yet I still do...imagine that. Smith stands only a few steps
behind Bay in my rankings. I, Robot puts him there
automatically.
Whereas, IM-probably-unbelievably-unpopular-O, the Proyas' I,
Robot was an interesting meditation on the Zeroth Law, and
describes a more plausible route for its evolution (and
consequence) than Asimov ever did.
engineer|4.25.09 @ 9:30PM|#
"I never understood this attitude that works are somehow
sacrosanct from reinterpretation. If someone takes a solid text,
and does something interesting (albeit not what was originally
intended) with it, what's the problem?"
It's not like the "plot" of Verhoeven's movie was difficult to come
up with. He only stole the title to market his film. Don't get me
wrong-I like cinematic violence, gratuitous, and related schlock as
much as the next guy-but I can also say that he did a disservice to
Heinlein's text by "reinterpreting" it as a futuristic Space Nazi
movie.
|4.25.09 @ 9:31PM|#
an interesting meditation on the Zeroth Law
If you bathe an interesting point in pure shit, you shouldn't be
surprised when people stop digging through the pile.
I liked joey bee a lt, but I was always perceived as a way
different thing than him, I thought.
What, no Farces Wanna Mo any more, Dave?
engineer|4.25.09 @ 9:33PM|#
"* Yes, yes, I know I have attacked Will Smith for the same
thing with I am Legend. Well, fuck Will Smith."
Yes, he will burn in scientologist hell for that godawful ending.
I'm just being consistent. In both cases, the movies completely
changed the point from what it was in the books they were based
on.
engineer|4.25.09 @ 9:39PM|#
I will grant, however, that a piece of classic entertaining schlock, Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is a singular example.
|4.25.09 @ 9:50PM|#
Yes, he will burn in scientologist hell for that godawful
ending.
Is that like, a volcano or something? But regardless, I agree with
you.
If you can disconnect it from Heinlein in your head, Starship
Troopers is great fun. If you can't, you'll hate it.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 10:19PM|#
If you bathe an interesting point in pure shit, you
shouldn't be surprised when people stop digging through the
pile.
I guess that's where I and pretty much everyone else differ on this
one; I didn't see anything particularly objectionable about the
movie at any point. I know it's hip and chic and all that to hate
Will Smith, Tom Cruise, et al. for whatever reason (and it ain't
talent, because they are decent actors, whatever their personal
flaws), but I just call it how I see it.
I thought that Smith played an exceptional bigot in I,
Robot, nailed the feel of that sort of personality pretty
well. The writing was at worst unexceptional and more that
occasionally witty. The CGI was well-integrated and the plot
reasonably lacking in holes. It wasn't the best movie ever by a
long stretch, but it doesn't deserve the scorn heaped upon it,
which in my experience has been motivated on the whole by people
who can't disconnect the film from Asimov, much as people
had a problem with Verhoeven's Starship Troopers couldn't
let go of Heinlein, coupled with the aforementioned "it's cool to
shit on the scientologist cause he's popular" effect.
|4.25.09 @ 10:43PM|#
LMNOP, Will Smith has two acting styles: the Fresh Price of
Bel-Air, and his Bad Boys character (directed by...Michael
Bay, natch). Everything else he does is an amalgam of those two
extremes. I've never personally found him compelling in
any role.
And any screenplay that they let Akiva Goldsman
near, you can guarantee it will be ruined. You just go
ahead and peruse that filmography.
engineer|4.25.09 @ 10:50PM|#
"Yes, he will burn in scientologist hell for that godawful
ending.
Is that like, a volcano or something?"
I dunno. Just a cheap jab at Smith and scientologists in
general.
"If you can disconnect it from Heinlein in your head, Starship
Troopers is great fun."
My anger was sort of a put-on. It just got me steamed when
Verhoeven claimed that he considered his movie an honest
interpretation of the book, although he didn't even read it.
Elemenope|4.25.09 @ 11:13PM|#
And any screenplay that they let Akiva Goldsman near, you
can guarantee it will be ruined. You just go ahead and peruse that
filmography.
Really? A Beautiful Mind? Cinderella Man? Flawed
movies, sure, but because of the script. I'll of course give you
B&R, and A Time to Kill I'm conflicted on but I see
the point. He seems like a Brian Helgeland more than anything,
wildly uneven in quality but runs the whole gamut.
Will Smith has two acting styles: the Fresh Price of Bel-Air,
and his Bad Boys character (directed by...Michael Bay, natch).
Everything else he does is an amalgam of those two extremes. I've
never personally found him compelling in any role.
Ali?
Kolohe|4.26.09 @ 12:46AM|#
Never seen it, but everyone talks about Smith's role in "Six Degrees of
Separation" Is it just a more subtle version of the Fresh
Prince personna?
I, Robot was an interesting meditation on the Zeroth
Law,
I agree. I also like the comparison of fanboy hatred for Starship
Troopers and I Robot. The I Robot one is even sillier, as it's not
even a singular work to begin with, but a collection of short
stories. And a work for which the author himself wrote fan fiction
for the rest of his life.
Btw, it took me a good decade after reading Foundation and Earth to
finally realize the "Zeroth Law" wasn't just named after some robot
arbitrarily named Zeroth.
On a related note, I'm extremely skeptical of the rumored
Foundation movie. It will be very difficult to adapt something that
Asimov himself admitted had most of the action take place off
stage.
Art-P.O.G.|4.26.09 @ 1:19AM|#
but I was always perceived as a way different thing than him, I thought.
"Thing" is right.
Richard Stands|4.26.09 @ 2:09AM|#
Smith has charisma. I wouldn't argue that's the same as acting
ability.
While I admire his charisma, I've begun to anticipate that any
"action" film he's in will be a giant departure from any original
version. From Wild Wild West, to I, Robot, to I am Legend, I've
learned to expect disappointment.
I've enjoyed many of his other films - probably because I haven't
read the books or seen the shows they were based on: Men in Black,
Bagger Vance, Hitch, and Pursuit of Happiness.
Hollywood's absurd vision of technology undercut most of enjoyment
I would otherwise have garnered from Independence Day and Enemy of
the State. "Okay, aliens travel across the vastness of space to
colonize Earth, sure. We intercept their communications,
absolutely. A cable guy figures out it's a countdown, yep. The
president leads the charge in his fighter jet, gotcha. The cable
guy figures out the alien computer architecture, and
understands its subtleties to such a degree that he can write a
viable disabling virus on his Mac in a few hours. Pan
to my seat cushion flipping up with its occupant missing.
Not Will's fault, of course. But it is amazing how much disbelief
I'm prepared to suspend, and what snaps me out of that state.
Naga Sadow|4.26.09 @ 2:21AM|#
R. Stands,
You think to much, bro. I could picture it as plausible. Sorta like
liquoring up Indians and then having them sign over their land for
some beads. I had this picture of incredibly arrogant aliens who
have such hubris as to not encrypt their programs. That and my knee
jerk reaction of "Fucking aliens! Where do they get the nerve of
destroying our cities! Those fuckers are gonna get theirs in the
end!"
|4.26.09 @ 2:34AM|#
I loved I Robot . I don't read sci fi. Maybe that made it more
tolerable. Starship Troppers was like great b-movie sci fi. Ali was
great. Hitch was fun. Hancock was alright. I did not like much of
anything about I am legend.
Independence Day is one of my faves along with Men In Black. Both
are just good fun.
Suki|4.26.09 @ 2:34AM|#
"Fucking aliens! Where do they get the nerve of destroying
our cities! Those fuckers are gonna get theirs in the
end!"
Wasn't that sort of what Will Smith was doing when he was beating
that alien for stinking and bothering us?
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 2:50AM|#
Btw, it took me a good decade after reading Foundation and
Earth to finally realize the "Zeroth Law" wasn't just named after
some robot arbitrarily named Zeroth.
Fucking LOL! Exactly. When does the rest of the known universe take
stock of the fact that the vast majority of the people in that
universe start lists with "one" and not fucking "zero"? :)
Independence Day is one of my faves along with Men In Black.
Both are just good fun.
In-fucking-deed. Me more on ID4 and less on MIB, but I think that's
just age. At a certain point probability has to take a back-stage
to possibility in theatre. Yes, maybe the aliens were so confident
that their anti-virus does really suck. It's a mistake that we have
no problem assuming humans would make, so why not the aliens?
Richard Stands|4.26.09 @ 4:24AM|#
I grant you Independence Day was fun. I enjoyed most of the ride
as well.
However, being in the computer biz (as I'm sure many other posters
are), it was the computer silliness that snapped me out of it. The
sheer amount of information a hacker has to know about an operating
system is large enough, add to that all the other factors - not
knowing the aliens' spoken/written language, not knowing the
general architecture, not knowing the functions being attempted by
code you can't read, finding out how to alter the code in way that
isn't completely ineffective or blatantly obvious, the list goes on
and on - and the chances of such a feat are distractingly
laughable.
Still, point well taken that I'm thinking about it too much. It's
fiction. I was happy enough watching things blow up and seeing
those squiddies get their smack-down.
At least they didn't have the ships going "whoosh" in the vacuum of
space ;-)
Fluffy|4.26.09 @ 10:01AM|#
While I agree that the computer virus subplot in ID4 was
nonsense, I think it was a [very] slightly lower level of nonsense
than Richard does.
I thought that the "cable guy" was actually supposed to be some
sort of uber MIT genius who worked for a cable company just to show
that he didn't give a shit.
And I also thought that the Area 51 guys had been experimenting
with the alien computers for decades, and that Goldblum's insight
was merely that they should apply malice to their work,
instead of Data's naive quest for mere understanding.
|4.26.09 @ 10:50AM|#
What I feel was *lacking* from the film was a unified
artistic sense to drive the picture
I hope you washed your hands after that, Professor.
For the record (again):
Starship Troopers sucked.
SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED!!!!!!!
|4.26.09 @ 10:52AM|#
Robocop and Starship Troopers were able, if not brilliant,
satire
*makes sign of the cross*
MNG|4.26.09 @ 11:10AM|#
"I've never personally found him compelling in any role."
Tru dat, double tru
MNG|4.26.09 @ 11:13AM|#
Af for Tom Cruise, I've always been apolgetic for him ever since what I felt was his great performance in Magnolia.
Art-P.O.G.|4.26.09 @ 11:53AM|#
I actually enjoyed Starship Troopers a lot. Sure, it's not like the book and it doesn't make sense to have advanced technology but Vietnam-era infantry tools and tactics, but I've always enjoyed Verhoeven's combination of camp sensibility and ultraviolence.
MaterialMonkee|4.26.09 @ 12:02PM|#
"Tom Cruise, I've always been apolgetic for him ever since what
I felt was his great performance in Magnolia."
Minority report absolutely rocked eh? You could have stuck any
fairly competent Hollywood actor in that part though (Willis, Pitt
etc) and it would have been good.
Same goes for A Scanner Darkly,
I remember reading about the project before it came out
PKDick's family approved the script
Radiohead doing the soundtrack
Richard Linklater doing rotoscoping
(Waking life is one of my favourite films)
all looking good then Keanu Reeves in main role
bollocks
still it was a good film
engineer|4.26.09 @ 12:10PM|#
"Sure, it's not like the book and it doesn't make sense to have
advanced technology but Vietnam-era infantry tools and
tactics"
You see, that's another thing that drove me nuts. In the book they
have powered suits, while in the movie they're essentially
footsoldiers with scarier-looking guns. Plus, in the movie the
infantry are organized like a conscript army of cannon fodder, and
are pointed at the Bugs and told to charge while shooting, while
the tactics in the book are far more sophisticated and the soldiers
are described as elite force of trained specialists, not brainless
conscripts who charge about randomly.
dhex|4.26.09 @ 12:11PM|#
"Showgirls is an (unintentional? intentional?) farce, so awesome
in its over-the-top nature that it almost--but not quite--becomes
sublime in its efforts. It's thoroughly enjoyable if you don't take
it at all seriously."
actually, i would argue that it's one of the best meditations on
the death of the american dream ever committed to film. only the
surface is farce, and everything underneath is rotted.
engineer|4.26.09 @ 12:11PM|#
In any case, I've come down from last night's Hulk rage (though, speaking of movies that sucked...)
Art-P.O.G.|4.26.09 @ 12:22PM|#
still it was a good film
Yeah, A Scanner Darkly was a proper nice film.
I already liked Linklater before that film, but after that and
The Waking Life, I'd say he's one of my favorite directors
(P.T. Anderson is also pretty damn good, and I just bring him up
'cos MNG mentioned Magnolia.
Art-P.O.G.|4.26.09 @ 12:23PM|#
But all props to PK Dick, definitely a writer whose work I have to get caught up on.
Fluffy|4.26.09 @ 12:36PM|#
You see, that's another thing that drove me nuts. In the
book they have powered suits, while in the movie they're
essentially footsoldiers with scarier-looking guns.
Who go into battle without artillery, heavy automatic weapons,
entrenching tools, barbed wire, air support, flamethrowers, or
anything else.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 12:43PM|#
I already liked Linklater before that film, but after that
and The Waking Life, I'd say he's one of my favorite directors
(P.T. Anderson is also pretty damn good, and I just bring him up
'cos MNG mentioned Magnolia.
D'you ever get a chance to check out Linklater's Tape?
That was pure genius.
|4.26.09 @ 1:09PM|#
actually, i would argue that it's one of the best
meditations on the death of the american dream ever committed to
film. only the surface is farce, and everything underneath is
rotted.
Acid Damage, why must you be so serious? Are you The Joker? The rot
in Showgirls extends beyond Kyle MacLachlan and Elizabeth
Berkley...it's about how Gina Gershon is hot...yet not hot. It's a
meditation on Gershon's weird sexuality. Am I right? Who's with
me?
Naga Sadow|4.26.09 @ 1:48PM|#
Fluffy,
Agreed. I was the only one asking "Why the fuck do they have to
land? Nuke the site from orbit, dammit!"
"I'm ready, man, check it out. I am the ultimate badass! State of
the badass art! You do NOT wanna fuck with me. Check it out! Hey
Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate badasses will
protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam
phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical
smart missiles, phase-plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic
electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp
sticks..."
MNG|4.26.09 @ 1:50PM|#
"it's about how Gina Gershon is hot"
I'm with ya up to this point, way with ya.
Oh, and Scanner Darkly was cool. Liked the scoping. Love PKD.
You guys probably know more than me he had some anarchist themed
stuff, right?
engineer|4.26.09 @ 2:00PM|#
"Why the fuck do they have to land? Nuke the site from orbit,
dammit!"
Because that way you can get plenty of blood and gore in the
mix.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 2:08PM|#
You guys probably know more than me he had some anarchist
themed stuff, right?
Well, he had this belief that we really never left ancient Imperial
Rome, and that all struggle against authority was resistance
against the Imperial state. Then again, he was almost certainly
also schizophrenic, so there's that.
Kolohe|4.26.09 @ 2:12PM|#
It's a meditation on Gershon's weird sexuality.
Her entire filmography is a meditation on that - esp the film that
made the Matrix possible. So I guess I'm with you.
See also: Famke Janssen, with whom I get Gershon mixed up all the
time. (like, before looking it up, I thought Gershon, not Janssen,
was in Goldeneye)
Robert|4.26.09 @ 3:56PM|#
I can also say that he did a disservice to Heinlein's text by "reinterpreting" it as a futuristic Space Nazi movie.
But you can't do a disservice to a text. A text doesn't exist for
its own sake. I think Heinlein would've loved that movie, and the
movie got across a lot of what Helinlein wrote, just not
necessarily in that book, so what's the problem?
Besides, "faithful" adaptations bore me because of their lack of
surprise. I enjoy it far better when someone takes something from
the original and twists it in a way that surprises those familiar
with the original. Like the way the question from the book, why
fight this way when we could just push a button, is answered in a
hilariously different way in the movie!
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 4:03PM|#
See also: Famke Janssen, with whom I get Gershon mixed up
all the time. (like, before looking it up, I thought Gershon, not
Janssen, was in Goldeneye)
Now that's truly fucked up. How on earth could you confuse
absolutely hot Janssen with
hot-only-in-that-indescribable-unidentifiable-way Gershon?
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 4:06PM|#
A text doesn't exist for its own sake.
QFMFT. I'm not so sure about the 'Heinlein liking it' thing;
perhaps old Heinlein would have liked and appreciated it, but young
I-just-wrote-Starship-Troopers-to-protest-the-test-ban-treaty
Heinlein probably would not have been amused.
My point is, in any case, why should we give a fuck what the author
would have thought? The text, once written and distributed, is out
of the author's hands.
Kolohe|4.26.09 @ 4:15PM|#
"How on earth could you confuse.."
1
2
It's like Amy Adams and Isla Fisher.
(btw, for 'hot in that indescribable way' - in the 90's - my vote's
for Sandra Bullock. The hotness of both Gershon and Jenssen are
quite easily described)
Mr. Chartreuse|4.26.09 @ 5:29PM|#
"It was a bad call Ripley, it was a bad call."
I think the extended version of Aliens ends up being a
better movie than the original version. That usually doesn't happen
with "Extended/Special/Director's Cuts".
engineer|4.26.09 @ 5:37PM|#
"My point is, in any case, why should we give a fuck what the
author would have thought? The text, once written and distributed,
is out of the author's hands."
Well, gee, it's just rather massively uncool to make the movie
completely different from the book WHICH ONE HASN'T READ, and then
claim that the movie is an accurate take on the book. If you're
going to butcher a book for the movie, at least have the courtesy
not to claim that it's an accurate take on the book.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 5:54PM|#
I think the extended version of Aliens ends up being a
better movie than the original version. That usually doesn't happen
with "Extended/Special/Director's Cuts".
Agree. Actually, I find it generally true with Ridley Scott films.
Blade Runner and Kingdom of Heaven were both much
improved by the Director's Cut.
|4.26.09 @ 5:55PM|#
Anyone who walked out of theater after viewing Independence Day
without feeling ripped off was either under 12 or mentally
challenged.
That flick sucked with a Kirbylike intensity.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 5:57PM|#
Well, gee, it's just rather massively uncool to make the
movie completely different from the book WHICH ONE HASN'T READ, and
then claim that the movie is an accurate take on the book. If
you're going to butcher a book for the movie, at least have the
courtesy not to claim that it's an accurate take on the
book.
I get this particular beef in this particular case, but generally
speaking this whole demanded fidelity to the spirit of dead authors
thing strikes me as a little bizarre. Verhoeven should have been
honest about how tangential the book was to his movie, rather than
claiming it as a true interpretation, but I don't think that has
much bearing on whether the movie itself is good or bad.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 5:59PM|#
Anyone who walked out of theater after viewing Independence
Day without feeling ripped off was either under 12 or mentally
challenged.
You don't have much room in your heart for non-serious
blowing-shit-up fun, do you? It was campy and implausible and lots
of shit got all blowed up. That's what makes it fun.
|4.26.09 @ 6:00PM|#
J sub D,
Gonna have to agree. But what does that say about all the
subsequent flicks that have imitated parts of ID4? (Phantom Menace,
I'm looking at you...)
|4.26.09 @ 6:32PM|#
The middle of the alphabet guy,
Blowing CGI shit up does not a watchable movie make. The movie was
inane from start to finish. If you had given Ron Howard some
firecrackers, a thousand little green army men, a plot outline
written by a bag lady, and a Super 8 camera when he was 12, you'd
have gotten a superior cinematic experience.
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 6:42PM|#
You really wanna put Ron Howard up as the go-to guy for
cinematic experiences?
Gingers, man. Gingers.
|4.26.09 @ 7:14PM|#
You really wanna put Ron Howard up as the go-to guy for
cinematic experiences?
Gingers, man. Gingers.
Every director drops a blind mullet into the theaters
occasionally.
I've seen some of the work that little Opie did with a super 8 as a
child.
It was better than Independence Day.
Bingo|4.26.09 @ 8:33PM|#
Will Smith movies are great because of the rap/dance music video tie-ins that inevitably happen!
Elemenope|4.26.09 @ 11:03PM|#
Good luck making plants illegal.
What, you're saying it's hard? It just takes a vote and a stroke of
the pen.
Bingo|4.26.09 @ 11:37PM|#
Brett Stevens has a very angry blog, and I'm not sure why he's so angry. Cool domain though!
Suki|4.27.09 @ 12:07AM|#
Bingo,
Brett Stevens has a very angry blog, and I'm not sure why he's
so angry. Cool domain though!
I hope to make mine
happy, generally anyway.
engineer|4.27.09 @ 12:09AM|#
"Good luck making plants illegal.
You must be new to earth."
Don't give them ideas, dangit!
Bingo|4.27.09 @ 12:26AM|#
Interesting blog Suki, and I dig the boots! Personal style is one of the most simple and satisfying ways of projecting individuality in a world increasingly composed of collectivists.
|4.27.09 @ 5:43AM|#
I never understood this attitude that works are somehow sacrosanct
from reinterpretation. If someone takes a solid text, and does
something interesting (albeit not what was originally intended)
with it, what's the problem?
I remember reading somewhere (maybe IMDB, maybe a movie rag, I
dunno) that Verhoeven didn't even bother finishing the novel before
directing the film.
There's nothing wrong with reinterpretation. As far as satire goes,
the movie version of Starship Troopers does what it wants
to do pretty well, which is shit on its source material and make
Heinlein look once and for all like a champion of war and
fascism.
ST came out when I was a kid and I hadn't read the book before I
saw it, so I thought it was just a cool sci-fi action movie. As an
adult I think it's pretty obvious how much contempt Verhoeven had
for Heinlein, the book, and the project in general.
|4.27.09 @ 10:09AM|#
Anarchy Democracy is too
unpredictable, and you have no rights when in the grip of the
looting mob.
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