The Anti-Capitalist Documentary That Can Make You Love Ayn Rand

Brian Doherty | April 21, 2009

That's what economist and sometimes Reason magazine contributor Tyler Cowen says about The End of Poverty in a slashing review in The American Interest. The nub:

I can only report that The End of Poverty, narrated throughout by Martin Sheen, puts Ayn Rand back on the map as an accurate and indeed insightful cultural commentator. If you were to take the most overdone and most caricatured cocktail-party scenes from Atlas Shrugged, if you were to put the content of Rand’s “whiners” on the screen, mixed in with at least halfway competent production values, you would get something resembling The End of Poverty. If you ever thought that Rand’s nemeses were pure caricature, this film will show you that they are not (if the stalking presence of Naomi Klein has not already done so). If you are looking to benchmark this judgment, consider this: I would not say anything similar even about the movies of Michael Moore.

In this movie, the causes of poverty are oppression and oppression alone. There is no recognition that poverty is the natural or default state of mankind and that a special set of conditions must come together for wealth to be produced. There is no discussion of what this formula for wealth might be. There is no recognition that the wealth of the West lies upon any foundations other than those of theft, exploitation and the oppression of literal or virtual colonies. 

Cowen is also annoyed that the Robert Schalkenbach Foundation, ostensibly dedicated to the work of eccentric free-market economic thinker and polemicist Henry George (he of the single-tax-on-unimproved-land fame) funded this documentary:

...the Robert Schalkenbach Foundation should be ashamed for having funded this movie. The Schalkenbach Foundation was set up in 1925 to promote the thinking of Henry George, best known as the author of Progress and Poverty and advocate of a tax on land. George was a flawed but brilliant and incisive thinker. He understood that wealth needs to be produced, and he also understood the strong case for free trade, most of all to protect the interests of labor. His 1886 book Protection or Free Trade remains perhaps the best-argued tract on free trade to this day; in that book George refutes exactly the arguments put forward by The End of Poverty. Has Diaz, Sheen, Portello or anyone working today at the Schalkenbach Foundation read it? One has to wonder if anyone who has read George could lend a hand to the production of the screed of mistruths and error that is The End of Poverty.

Comments

|4.21.09 @ 9:11PM|#

Africa is living proof that there's more to overcoming poverty than getting rid of Evil Western Imperialists.

Or are they still claiming that the "legacy" of colonialism is still hampering them, three generations later?

Michelle|4.21.09 @ 9:20PM|#

re: Mistuh Cowen

Why'd he be so RACIST

smartass sob|4.21.09 @ 9:26PM|#

Or are they still claiming that the "legacy" of colonialism is still hampering them, three generations later?

I believe they are still claiming just exactly that.

|4.21.09 @ 9:34PM|#

I went through a mandatory anti-capitalism indoctrination class called "globalization honors" at my University. I went back and took the second half of two semesters with Freshmen this year and found them to be reading Naomi Klein.

I get the sinking feeling that this documentary will be in the curriculum next year.

Faux-Objectivist|4.21.09 @ 9:59PM|#

Hate to say I told you sooooo...

|4.21.09 @ 10:02PM|#

Klein's a tool who's usually either trying to rewrite (i.e. falsify) history (like asserting Milton Friedman maliciously colluded with Augusto Pinochet), or just blatantly lie about the nature of globalization.

economist|4.21.09 @ 10:04PM|#

"Africa is living proof that there's more to overcoming poverty than getting rid of Evil Western Imperialists.

Or are they still claiming that the "legacy" of colonialism is still hampering them, three generations later?"

Given that many key indicators of standard of living have actually gone down in many parts of Africa since the end of the colonial era, that argument is untenable no matter how long they've been free of European control. There are exceptions, of course. Botswana has enjoyed a high rate of economic growth since the end of British rule, in large part thanks to the country's relatively free-market economy. South Africa has remained more or less stable since the end of apartheid. And, before Mugabe went completely off the deep end, many considered Zimbabwe a promising state.

economist|4.21.09 @ 10:07PM|#

To clarify, that should have read "there are exceptions to the rule of standards of living going down". I should also note that some countries in Africa may be better off now than they were under colonial, but went through long periods where they were worse off, and in many cases have only recently begun to improve. Kenya would be a good example of that case.

|4.21.09 @ 10:45PM|#

I was almost tempted to click on TEOP link, but I just finished a nice dinner and I don't want to puke all over my keyboard.

Robert Mugabe|4.21.09 @ 10:47PM|#

...many considered Zimbabwe a promising state.

If you fucking Westerners would pay me off better I wouldn't have to fuck over my own country.

Nicholas D. Rosen|4.21.09 @ 10:51PM|#

I saw the film (in not-quite-finally-edited form) last summer at the Georgist conference. I was not at all happy with it, and neither were many of the other Georgists in attendance.

The pro-film position of the Schalkenbach people is that the if they had madea really Georgist film, no one would see it, while this semi-Georgist film should get people interested, and maybe get them further into Georgism. I didn't think so. While the film is right (AFAIK) about some of the injustices suffered by poor Third World people deprived of their land, it doesn't explain how to handle that kind of problem, and as I put last summer, a standard issue conservative or libertarian would likely recognize that much of the film was rubbish, and not give much credit to the valid parts, while an anti-globalization activist would have his ignorant prejudices reinforced, and not learn anything about Georgism.

It's a crummy film, but please buy a ticket and see it. The Robert Schalkenbach Foundation can use the money, and does support real Georgist activism.

Gilbert Martin|4.21.09 @ 11:00PM|#

From the Cowen review:

"The history in this movie starts, not coincidentally one may assume, in 1492 with the arrival of Columbus in the New World. The phrase "natural economies" is used repeatedly to refer to the conduct of the since-despoiled noble savages, and we are told that the Europeans destroyed the natural economies of the countries they conquered. Never mentioned is the fact that these so-called natural economies were themselves based on prior conquest and oppression. In fact, the natural economies are never actually portrayed at all, apart from a brief mention of collective or "ejido" land rights in what became "Latin" America."

It's little wonder why the "natural economies" aren't examined in detail. They might have a little trouble explaining how the Aztec empire was "naturally" built on enslaving other indian tribes.

economist|4.21.09 @ 11:01PM|#

"It's a crummy film, but please buy a ticket and see it. The Robert Schalkenbach Foundation can use the money, and does support real Georgist activism."
Problem is, I'm of two minds on Georgist activism. On the one hand, I think that since land and natural resource rental value makes up a smaller proportion of the economy than the pounds of flesh currently taken by the various levels of government, limiting taxation to the land rent would be preferable from a libertarian perspective. I also understand (and sympathize with) the moral and philosophical arguments of the Georgists, and see the LVT as less harmful economically than our current tax system. That said, Georgists have allied themselves too often with elements of the far left (TEOP being an example) for me to be at all comfortable with supporting their cause. I want to know that the money I donate is going to support the fairly limited and reasonable proposals of actual Georgists, and not to shill for Marxists, Peronists, and the like.

Stormy Dragon|4.21.09 @ 11:01PM|#

One has to wonder if anyone who has read George could lend a hand to the production of the screed of mistruths and error that is The End of Poverty.

O'Sullivan's Law rears its ugly head again: any organization that is not explicitly right wing eventually ends up becoming left wing.

economist|4.21.09 @ 11:02PM|#

And Nick Rosen,
I might or might not donate to the Robert Schalkenback Foundation directly, but I see no reason to support (implicitly or explicitly), the tripe pushed in TEOP.

economist|4.21.09 @ 11:07PM|#

"They might have a little trouble explaining how the Aztec empire was "naturally" built on enslaving other indian tribes."

The Aztecs had nothing on the Incas. While the Aztecs were content to collect plunder and (literally) their annual pound of flesh, they otherwise let other tribes be. The Incas, on the other hand, actively worked to subjugate and subsume, by force, the culture of all conquered peoples. Forced intermarriages and relocations were common.

|4.21.09 @ 11:30PM|#

The Aztecs had nothing on the Incas.

I wish I could watch some hapless leftist's head explode at the cognitive dissonance that not all of the world's evils are directly traceable to Western civilization.

|4.22.09 @ 12:17AM|#

I went through a mandatory anti-capitalism indoctrination class called "globalization honors" at my University. I went back and took the second half of two semesters with Freshmen this year and found them to be reading Naomi Klein.

I get the sinking feeling that this documentary will be in the curriculum next year.

Hearing stuff like this makes me want to vomit. Literally.

Ebeneezer Scrooge|4.22.09 @ 12:19AM|#

Sorry, you'll never get the chance. Because hapless leftists will never feast their gaze upon the evidence.

You have to recognize religion when you see it.

|4.22.09 @ 12:24AM|#

For evidence, withness the left's reaction to 9/11.

Half of them saying "America had it coming" and the other half going "it was an inside job".

Approximately zero able to digest the fact that someone other than a western capitalist could commit a heinous act of brutality.

|4.22.09 @ 12:37AM|#

South Africa has remained more or less stable since the end of apartheid

Has it? Recent pictures of Johannesburg look pretty scary. Empty highrises, trash in the street, etc.

Ashley|4.22.09 @ 12:56AM|#

If you were to take the most overdone and most caricatured cocktail-party scenes from Atlas Shrugged, if you were to put the content of Rand's "whiners" on the screen, mixed in with at least halfway competent production values, you would get something resembling The End of Poverty. If you ever thought that Rand's nemeses were pure caricature, this film will show you that they are not…

I've been saying this for 10 years. "But no one listens to poor old dad."

|4.22.09 @ 1:20AM|#

"Hearing stuff like this makes me want to vomit. Literally."

What bothers me the most, is that they do it to freshmen who don't have the experience to know how to defend an idea like capitalism. One of the many things I hate about Uni culture, but that's a whole different rant.

On the bright side, I quoted the whole Milton Friedman on Donahue response and won some people over.

|4.22.09 @ 1:27AM|#

I was wondering what this 'Where's George' stuff on my money was all about.

Suki|4.22.09 @ 2:13AM|#

Hazel,

Or are they still claiming that the "legacy" of colonialism is still hampering them, three generations later?

These days it is something like "the Capitalists replaced the Colonialists" something something, a legacy of sorts I guess.

Do most people here really think that the solution to poverty around the world is free markets, or is there more to it?

|4.22.09 @ 2:32AM|#

Took a class at GMU called "Cyberpunk," where we spent half of the time watching videos of Naomi Klein and other anti-capitalists and the rest of the time talking about these videos.

Makes me frightened for the next generation of college students.

Suki|4.22.09 @ 3:08AM|#

Happy Earth Day!

Ebeneezer Scrooge|4.22.09 @ 3:41AM|#

Makes me frightened for the next generation of college students.

What about the last few generations? How long has it been since there was a generation that wasn't spoon fed socialism from birth?

Remember, the Europeans are happier than we are. We should hope to become just like them.

Suki|4.22.09 @ 3:59AM|#

Brian,

I do not see how buying a ticket to this movie helps anybody. I don't care what they told you or what sort of excuse was made for creating this movie, if this is the product of that organization now rewarding them is not the answer.

Ebeneezer Scrooge|4.22.09 @ 5:39AM|#

There is no recognition that poverty is the natural or default state of mankind and that a special set of conditions must come together for wealth to be produced. There is no discussion of what this formula for wealth might be.

Now this is the key argument.

It doesn't sound like "hey, leave me alone I just want to go do my own thing".

"I just want to go do drugs" is never going to sell the libertarian platform to anybody but left over hippies.

"This is the best way there is to raise the standard of living for the poor", now that just might get some traction.

Maybe.

Rand always condemned this as the "utilitarian" argument that shouldn't be made. Because, she said, it evaded the central moral issues of capitalism. But if you want to sell ideas to the general public, maybe she missed something.

Wouldn't have been the first time.

Marcello|4.22.09 @ 6:42AM|#

In defense of Africa... I visited Ethiopia a few months ago, and had many wonderful conversations with Africans from all over the continent. Not one said "we need more help from the West". Essentially their opinion was "Africa is being run by Africans, and if we don't get our act together we have nobody to blame but ourselves". Even the poorest Africans seem to have a sense of personal responsibility that is missing from much of Western culture. I came away feeling that we'll be seeing some positive developments coming from Africa in the near future.

|4.22.09 @ 7:28AM|#

Took a class at GMU called "Cyberpunk," where we spent half of the time watching videos of Naomi Klein and other anti-capitalists and the rest of the time talking about these videos.

Jeez. At least tell me they had you read City Come A-Walkin or Shockwave Rider or The Girl That Was Plugged In... something actually having to do with cyberpunk.

High Every Body|4.22.09 @ 8:10AM|#

syd,

Did they make you do a report on "24 hours in cyberspace" too? Another 'masterpiece' involving Al and Tipper Gore from the 1990s.

Kreel Sarloo|4.22.09 @ 8:52AM|#

Has it? Recent pictures of Johannesburg look pretty scary. Empty highrises, trash in the street, etc.

Sounds like downtown Orlando. I wonder if Joburg smells like piss too.

creech|4.22.09 @ 9:34AM|#

Yet another foundation pushing ideas that would have been anathema to its founder. Old J. Howard Pew must be spinning in his grave at the stuff the Pew Charitable Trust funds. Don't libertarians ever get to "take over" a liberal's foundation? Will the Koch Foundation, fifty years hence, be unrecognizable?

|4.22.09 @ 10:59AM|#

This is just racism in respectable clothing. Noble or barbaric, the savage is still seen as other, not fully human. Those who worry about what freshman are being taught have evidently never tried to teach. The kids' underlying bias is against what they are being taught - that's their job.

Edward J. Dodson|4.22.09 @ 11:07AM|#

As a serious student of Henry George's writings (and proponent of his solutions to our social and economic problems), I concur that the message of the documentary The End of Poverty? narrowly examines the history of what George called "the land question." This documentary might best be thought of as the first episode in developing an understanding of what causes poverty in many societies.

The next episode ought to discuss the fact that even after the departure of foreign armies and colonial regimes, very few newly-sovereign nations establish equality of opportunity as the basis for new socio-political arrangements and institutions. Ancient hatreds erupt into armed conflict between peoples forced to live within the same political boundaries while under external domination. We have seen this occur repeatedly -- in the Balkans, in much of Africa and elsewhere.

We, in the United States, have much to answer for ourselves. For decades our leaders pursued an anti-communism stragegy that resulted in the support of tyrants and despots eager to profit personally at the expense of the general population in their countries, allowing multinational corporate interests to extract resources, exploit workers and destroy ecosystems.

The story Henry George told begins with the appearance of hiercharcy in the earliest societies, particularly after settlement in one place.

The School of Cooperative Individualism has developed a 30-minute slide presentation that tells this story from a "Georgist" perspective. I invite those who have an interest in developing a deeper understanding of the causes of (and solutions to) generational poverty to visit the school's website and view this presentation. A wealth of other materials are also available for the intellectually curious.

|4.22.09 @ 11:18AM|#

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."
- Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

|4.22.09 @ 11:51AM|#

@ SugarFree and @ High Every Body:

We glossed over Tiptree, John Shirley and Bruce Sterling. Meaning that we heard the names. We were only assigned three books (Do Androids Dream..., William Gibson's "Pattern Recognition," and Lee Siegel's "Against the Machine.")

So, no. Not much real "cyberpunk" stuff. But anything anti-corporation like "No Logo," none of which were required or even suggested reading according to the syllabus, would get the bulk of the classtime discussion.

ray|4.22.09 @ 12:05PM|#

syd,
Not even snowcrash or jennifer govenrment?

|4.22.09 @ 12:11PM|#

I wish I could watch some hapless leftist's head explode at the cognitive dissonance that not all of the world's evils are directly traceable to Western civilization.

No sane person believes this, so you've just erected yet another libertarian straw man about the left.

That position would be just as nuts as the one that the West has never done anything wrong.

|4.22.09 @ 12:48PM|#

Hey Tony, can you give me an example of some evils that the Left doesn't think were caused by Western civilization?

I'm curious.

|4.22.09 @ 12:53PM|#

Edward J. Dodson,

"...For decades our leaders pursued an anti-communism stragegy that resulted in the support of tyrants and despots..."

I'm curious, what would have been a better way to halt the advance of communism? Or better yet, do you think we should have let communism run it's course unimpeded?

|4.22.09 @ 12:56PM|#

"If you were to take the most overdone and most caricatured cocktail-party scenes from Atlas Shrugged . . .you would get something resembling The End of Poverty."

What you say corresponds to something I've noticed increasingly in recent years. At one time "liberals" might have had a legitimate complaint that their literary counterparts in Rand's fiction were caricatures, but increasingly those carciatures are like mini Dorian Gray portraits in the collectivist attic, which they've come to resemble.

JB|4.22.09 @ 1:03PM|#

Do most people here really think that the solution to poverty around the world is free markets, or is there more to it?

Free markets and taking the leftists out behind the shed and beating them to death. You won't get free markets until that is done anyways.

|4.22.09 @ 1:09PM|#

I'm curious, what would have been a better way to halt the advance of communism? Or better yet, do you think we should have let communism run it's course unimpeded?

I didn't get that kind of viewpoint from Edward J. Dodson, Stupendousman. Supporting some despots may have been a necessary evil in defeating communism. The problem lies in the lack of followup once communism was defeated. The prime example was the chaos left in Afghanistan that led to the rise of the Taliban.

|4.22.09 @ 1:18PM|#

mishu,

Hmmm... I'm probably projecting. I spend too much time on Reddit where the US can do no right.

Zach|4.22.09 @ 1:29PM|#

Do most people here really think that the solution to poverty around the world is free markets, or is there more to it?


Well, there's more to it than that in the sense that the free market requires robust property rights, the rule of law and a relatively stable government to enforce it. Of course, those things likely require a certain cultural history and set of values.

I always like reminding adherents to colonialist theory that while Hong Kong (per capita GDP $42,123) was a British colony from 1842-1997, Ethiopia (per capita GDP $861) was never a colony (except for 5 years under the Italians during WWII). And that is not just cherry-picking.
Some have observed that the best way to become a rich country is to either become a British colony (Canada, US, Australia, New Zeeland, etc) or lose a war to America (Germany, Japan
). I guess Iraq will test that theory, since it both lost to the US and was a British colony.

|4.22.09 @ 1:32PM|#

Uggghhh, free market good

ugggghhh, freemind, with different viewpoint bad.

must kill those that think different from me. uggghhh

|4.22.09 @ 1:45PM|#

At one time "liberals" might have had a legitimate complaint that their literary counterparts in Rand's fiction were caricatures, but increasingly those carciatures are like mini Dorian Gray portraits in the collectivist attic, which they've come to resemble.

Don't kid yourself. They were always like that. Perhaps even more so in Rand's time.
It was only for a breif spell during the 90s that any liberals entertained notions that capitalism might not be all bad.

Kreel Sarloo|4.22.09 @ 1:52PM|#

Some have observed that the best way to become a rich country is to either become a British colony (Canada, US, Australia, New Zeeland, etc)

Well, one would have to note that in each of those cases the indiginous population has been pushed of to margins and the dominant inhabitants are European (mostly British) immigrants.

Meanwhile the remaining native populations of those countries tend to live at nearly third world levels of misery (with the possible exception of the Maoris).

Marcello|4.22.09 @ 2:05PM|#

If I recall my history correctly, the economy of the United States was in pretty bad shape for the first 50 years of our history. We didn't become prosperous overnight.

Most of these "developing" nations have only been independent for a few decades. India, for example, is slowly making progress by fighting corruption and opening up their economy. They're not making excuses. They're getting to work and showing results. Good luck to 'em.

JP|4.22.09 @ 2:18PM|#

Any of you guys ever see The Corporation? It's another "documentary" starring Naomi Klein, along with large dollops of Noam Chomsky, plus a pinch of Milton Friedman for the appearance of objectivity.

Dello|4.22.09 @ 2:28PM|#

So with all the bitching about the film over, the obvious question comes to mind:

Since shit like this will be filling the heads of generations to come, what's the best way to profit from it?

MaterialMonkee|4.22.09 @ 2:30PM|#

"And that is not just cherry-picking.
Some have observed that the best way to become a rich country is to either become a British colony (Canada, US, Australia, New Zeeland, etc) or lose a war to America (Germany, Japan
)."

Ever seen the Pete Sellers film the mouse that roared? A small country starts a war with the states so that it can lose and get some nation building cash but they accidentally win. Classic

MaterialMonkee|4.22.09 @ 2:49PM|#

@Hazel Meade, smartass sob, et al

Strangely enough on the Africa being poor thing. Its hard to fault the theory that it was due to western (including the USSR) intervention.

Firstly the decolonization was disastrous giving no thought to Racial or Tribal differences.
It took europeans 6000 years of tribal warfare and the invention of the nuclear bomb to finally (almost) settle their borders. What the imperialists did was setup a continenet up for war. And war they got


Then you've got the Liberal Keynesian bullshit that McNamara and the world bank did. Lend loads of cash to GOVERNMENT, get them to pay western contractors to do keynesian bullshit or just steal the cash. Instead of lending the money to African entrpreneurs of which there are many.

If they gave that xcash to people like this

http://allafrica.com/stories/200902161505.htm

africa wouldnt be half as fucked,
but no liberal keynesian bullshit in half the countries.

Then you've got the Russians who started wars for influence and installed bullshit commie regimes. Commies have slaughtered people or just generally made people poor everywhere so its no surprise it didn't work in Africa too.

So basically European Imperialism, American Keynesian liberal Bullshit, and Russian dirty communism fucked Africa.

So people dissing Africans clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Read a history book.

MaterialMonkee|4.22.09 @ 2:56PM|#

@ the Fake Georgists here

really what the fuck? Naomi klein? Henry George? Free trade? No logo?

chumps

MaterialMonkee|4.22.09 @ 3:08PM|#

More on Capitalism and Africa

look here for a map of the world which highlights countries with McDonalds

That would be the same McDonalds which is the token symbol of hate for No Logo types

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:McDonaldsWorldLocations.svg

Fuck me not a single Mcdonalds
surely teh evil corporations would have needed to feast on evil corporate burgers when they were taking over Africa?

No they must have hidden away there McDonalds inside the privatized factories that cover Africa?

yeah you heard it every thing in Africa is private

|4.22.09 @ 4:05PM|#

So basically European Imperialism, American Keynesian liberal Bullshit, and Russian dirty communism fucked Africa.

So people dissing Africans clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Read a history book.

Naturally, when I said that all things aren't attributable to Evil Western Imperialists, I was not including Nice Western Socialists and Glorious Workers Revolutionaries.

Of course, the biggest thing to fuck over Africa has been Marxism, which is a Western import, though an ostensibly "anti-imperialist" one.

|4.22.09 @ 4:22PM|#

Hey Tony, can you give me an example of some evils that the Left doesn't think were caused by Western civilization?

If there is anyone on the "left" who thinks all bad things come from western civilization I'd consider them as simpleminded and dogmatic as you.

engineer|4.22.09 @ 5:46PM|#

"If there is anyone on the "left" who thinks all bad things come from western civilization"

What do you mean "if"? There's plenty of leftists who argue that everything western is bad, bad, bad, and regularly argue that western culture is the great scourge of the world. You can generally identify them if they give "indigenous" cultures a pass for things that would horrify them if it was part of western culture (e.g. the liberal who complains incessantly that women don't get "equal pay for equal work" but then turns a blind eye to the flaws of cultures where women can be murdered by their own families because they were raped.)

|4.22.09 @ 5:46PM|#

I luv a-trollin'

Sean W. Malone|4.22.09 @ 6:05PM|#

What kind of non-answer was that Tony?

Have you honestly never heard Naomi Klein or Noam Chomsky speak?

|4.22.09 @ 7:04PM|#

If there is anyone on the "left" who thinks all bad things come from western civilization I'd consider them as simpleminded and dogmatic as you.

So then, I take it you couldn't think of any examples of some bad thing not supposedly attributable to western civilization in some way or other.

Come on. Just one example. How hard can that be?

|4.22.09 @ 8:18PM|#

"No sane person believes this, so you've just erected yet another libertarian straw man about the left."

Of course you don't believe it. You merely act as if it were true, in that you'll spend a great deal more time fretting someone who defends the West than someone who attacks it. The former is considered boorish and misinformed, the latter lionized. Your own private thoughts on the matter are heavily conflicted and largely irrelevant.

economist|4.22.09 @ 9:45PM|#

"Your own private thoughts on the matter are heavily conflicted and largely irrelevant."

I agree with the first part of your statement, disagree with the second. Unfortunately, the thoughts, attitudes, and emotions of people like Tony are relevant. Which is why I drink a lot.

Suki|4.23.09 @ 8:25PM|#

Hazel,


So then, I take it you couldn't think of any examples of some bad thing not supposedly attributable to western civilization in some way or other.

I was just on his side of the fence recently, and recovering fast, maybe not his real side but his troll posts.

Everything "bad" came from: Capitalism, rich white men, old white men, white men or men.

No, I really do not believe as much of that any more.

|4.26.09 @ 10:11AM|#

Third World countries were just that before colonialisation: Third World messes.

A select few of its denizens made it into the Second World, a scant few into the First World, and when left to their own devices - pre-colonial tribalism, superstition, etc. everyone reverted back to the good old days of truly cashless societies that are by most accounts vastly superior to captialism.