Oakland BART Officer Who Shot Pinned, Unarmed Man Resigns

Brian Doherty | January 9, 2009

The San Francisco Chronicle reports. This gets Johannes Mehserle off the hook for having to actually cooperate in internal police investigations of his murder of Oscar Grant. A great detail:

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff said he plans to move quickly toward a decision on possible charges. Orloff met Wednesday with Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums' chief of staff, several elected officials and other community leaders who arrived at his Oakland office demanding information about the probe.

"These things normally take weeks rather than days, but I am trying to expedite this and get it resolved as quickly as we can," Orloff said.

Any people in public prosecutors offices out there? Does it really take weeks to even decide to press charges in your average case of a multiple-eyewitness and on-video shooting? Or could it be officers are treated with kid gloves an average citizen shooter would not be.

Note: An earlier version of this post made the presumption, which I now believe not to be accurate, that the "statewide fund for police officers" that Mehserle's lawyer says in the story will pay for his defense--despite no longer being an officer--was paid for by taxpayers. While I have not been able to verify this for sure this Friday evening, it could well be this private defense fund. If I learn that taxpayers are indeed on the hook, I'll update.

Earlier blogging on this, each one with embeds or links to the news report with the citizen-shot video of the leadup to the shooting and shooting, from Michael Moynihan and me.

Comments

anarch|1.9.09 @ 9:11PM|#

Someone please compile two lists for this layman, List #1 to show the benefits that accrue to the officer as a result of his resignation, such as apparently avoiding IA investigation, and List #2 showing any penalties he incurs by having resigned - eg, are there any protections he forfeits thereby?

|1.9.09 @ 9:17PM|#

This gets Johannes Mehserle off the hook for having to actually cooperate in internal police investigations of his murder of Oscar Grant

You're presuming that the Internal affairs bureau would have any power to do anything other than get Mehserle fired, which they wouldn't.

You're also presuming a murder, even though you have no idea what his mens rea is.

Does the presumption of innocence only extend to non-cop defendants?

cunnivore|1.9.09 @ 9:28PM|#

Does the presumption of innocence only extend to non-cop defendants?

This isn't a courtroom, Wallace, and we aren't the jury. So there is no presumption of innocence in this case or any other.

Les|1.9.09 @ 9:29PM|#

Does the presumption of innocence only extend to non-cop defendants?

No, it extends to people who aren't captured on video while shooting unarmed folks in the back.

Les|1.9.09 @ 9:31PM|#

I take back that comment, Mr. Wallace, as I just noticed you said "murder," and were probably discussing the charge and not the fact that he killed someone. I'll try to be less quick to type in the future.

|1.9.09 @ 9:31PM|#

Wallace, I do know what mens rea means. I also know what "depraved heart" means. If that standard is available in CA, he can be found guilty of murder.

Also, the presumption of innocence is a legal burden I only have to honor if I'm serving as a juror on his trial. Since I don't have the power to imprison anyone, I'm under no such burden and am free to draw conclusions or not based on the evidence I see.

Steve|1.9.09 @ 9:34PM|#

Porac LDF in California is normally the legal defense fund afforded officers and it covers them during the course of their employment and after, since it covers actions *while* employed. They also defend people who are fired, so by design, that is after employment. LDF is normally paid for by the police association (union) for that agency, which normally obtain their money from union dues, not taxpayers (at least not directly.) An agency/city can choose to indemnify and pay for defense of any officer if it chooses, but that's not likely in this case, especially considering the officer has resigned.

cunnivore|1.9.09 @ 9:34PM|#

It's amazing how this prosecutor is so slow to make up his mind on pressing charges. The prosecutor in the Ryan Frederick case was so much quicker and more decisive. Come on Orloff, get on the ball!

xx|1.9.09 @ 9:34PM|#

More riots! evidently its the only thing that works.

|1.9.09 @ 9:35PM|#

I understand treating public cases especially carefully given that screwing up can have an effect beyond just the one case, but I don't understand why they couldn't decide to at least bring charges.

And I'm not a prosecutor, but I don't think it's entirely unheard of to bring lesser charges and then add to them should testimony bring corroborating evidence to light.

...although I'd think a video would be worth a thousand corroborating stories.

On a related note, I find it amazing that Madoff still isn't in a cell. Yeah, yeah, innocent until proven guilty, but... Don't corroborated confessions have something to do with this?

Same thing with the video of this murder. It's one thing to drag your feet charging the guy with something, but looking ahead, how do you let a guy who everbody's seen do something like this on tape just walk the streets?

lactose intolerant warrior|1.9.09 @ 9:42PM|#

I can't believe this shit. In protest, I'm going to eat five gallons of chocolate ice cream and then fart on every chair in every police station within 50 miles.

|1.9.09 @ 9:45PM|#

While I commend H&R for keeping this story alive in the blog, the resignation is quite old news, I believe it happened on Monday. My quick glance at my digg.com posts over the last week since this has been in the news, I see I was bitching about his resignation since about 4 PM my time Monday.

Earlier today Tony Harris on CNN gave an update after the small 30 second spot highlighting the riots that have sparked in the aftermath claiming that at this point the officers lawyer and the IA office are having trouble locating him. His lawyer claims there were credible threats on his life forcing him to go into hiding. Which explains why 9 days after the shooting no one from the BART IA office, the DA, or any other law enforcement agency even has the slightest idea what his explanation or defense for the shooting is. Apparently even his lawyer is having difficulty answering any questions about it.

Regarding SOP for civilian 'accidental shootings' earlier this week a 12 year old allegedly shot a 2 year old while playing with a small caliber rifle. The differences between the 2 cases is obvious, however it still stands to point out that the 12 year old in question was IMMEDIATELY taken into custody, and remains in custody pending charges.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/peninsula&id=6594946

Since there are so many accidental shootings every week, lets use them for example.

Here we have a hunter who accidentally shot another hunter on Jan 4, the victim is alive. However less then 24 hours after the shooting the news had already reported the charges that the shooter will face, reckless endangerment and assault. All without any video evidence to help sort out the facts:

http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/state/story/540282.html

Here, a man throwing a gun on his bed causing it to discharge and penetrate his wall and strike his neighbor on Jan 4, he has already been arrested and charged:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=123109583121639000

And lets not forget how quickly Plaxico Burress was arrested and charged for shooting himself.

9 days later this officer walks, nobody can even pinpoint his whereabouts and a time line for the decision to even FILE charges has not even been set.

The fact that there has not been MORE pressure on the DA from pretty much everyone is completely baffling.

Regarding the presumption of innocence:

Everyone is presumed innocent until found guilty, most prisoners in local jails are innocent suspects awaiting trail. Thats kinda how things work in the legal system, you are arrested, charged, go to jail, make bail or not, go to court, get convicted or acquitted. To ask for an arrest and charges to be filed is not saying he is guilty, its just saying that he COULD be.

Or are you suggesting that the legal process be somehow altered for Law Enforcement Personnel?

|1.9.09 @ 9:48PM|#

I wonder if they'll charge him with voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. And if the former, will he plead down to the latter? And what the sentence will be.

I don't think they will go murder unless its for political reasons. I don't know Cali law but I presume a certain amount of premeditation is required for a murder charge.

I'd guess something happened (something as stupid as getting his finger pinched in the cuffs, for example, which would be no big deal but would HURT) in that takedown that caused him to "see red" and that explosion led to the shooting.

And yes, the level of douchebag one has to be for that to lead you to shoot someone is off the damn scale. The dude deserves his cell.

anarch|1.9.09 @ 9:49PM|#

how do you let a guy who everbody's seen do something like this on tape just walk the streets?

I share the shock and understand the outrage, but perhaps he poses less of a threat now than he ever did, and less of a threat than many others walking the streets. At this point on his life, I bet he'll be real careful about anything and everything. Plus, he's no longer carrying a gun, right? Right? At least I hope not.

anarch|1.9.09 @ 9:51PM|#

Disclaimer: That was avowedly speculation and uncontextualized by comparable cases.

cunnivore|1.9.09 @ 10:02PM|#

Premeditation does not require any amount of time. If Cory Maye and Ryan Frederick got charged with murder this guy sure as hell should.

Lester Hunt|1.9.09 @ 10:03PM|#

On problem with not charging him and setting bail: isn't there some chance he is a flight risk?

|1.9.09 @ 10:03PM|#

So many comments in the short time it took for me to type out my last post...

Ken, your right on the ball regarding at least bringing preliminary charges. This happens all the time, probably to every poster in this forum. How many times have you received a traffic ticket and then gone to court only to have the DA offer you a deal, yea like all the time. Short of double jeopardy the law affords most DAs quite a bit of latitude when it comes to charges.

Hell, even if, god forbid, the DA would decide not to charge him at all there is certainly thousands of legal precedent for the man to be arrested and spend time in custody until the charges have been dropped. I'm certain we all can recall a case like that being reported on our evening local news across the country. From a PR and public safety standpoint the fact that this has not occurred just makes me wonder.

There is enough probable cause to at least arrest and charge with reckless manslaughter, hell, charge him with unlawful discharge of a firearm, if the bullet was truly fired by accident that is exactly what that law covers, accidental discharge of a firearm in pretty much every state is illegal.

cunnivore|1.9.09 @ 10:09PM|#

IANAL, but I thought [voluntary] manslaughter only applied when death resulted from a reaction without any sort of thought. For instance, if a guy stomps on one's foot and then one reactively swings in the direction of his head and hits him in the larynx, killing him, that would be manslaughter.

But it's hard to defend pulling out a gun and shooting the nearest person as a reaction to having one's finger pinched. If that's the case, this guy should not be walking around in our society anyway.

|1.9.09 @ 10:22PM|#

Jammer,

"I don't think they will go murder unless its for political reasons. I don't know Cali law but I presume a certain amount of premeditation is required for a murder charge."

Nope, actually California is the state most likely to pursue murder charges in the event of an accidental shooting. Usually a DA will push murder 2 in the case of an accidental shooting. Quoting Wikipedia:

"In many jurisdictions, such as in California, if the unintentional conduct amounts to such gross negligence as to amount to a willful or depraved indifference to human life, the mens rea may be considered to constitute malice. In such a case, the charged offense may be murder, often characterized as second degree murder."

You only need to look no further then both Christian Brando and Phil Spector for similar 'accidental shootings' that lead to murder charges. A quick google search reveals plenty of other citizens who have been charged in California for murder after an accidental shooting, in several cases murder was pursued against the owner of a firearm used by a juvenile to accidentally shoot another child.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.9.09 @ 10:30PM|#

man the fascists are everywhere even sanfrancisco. this doode needs to go down.

Meta-nobody u no|1.9.09 @ 10:45PM|#

its about time they killed that hippie

Meta-nobody u no|1.9.09 @ 10:48PM|#

only "cosmotarians" would oppose the execution of this hooligan. them and there progresive enablurs

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.9.09 @ 10:51PM|#

meta if you can't even spell progressive don't try talking about it man. same with enabulurz.

for algernon|1.9.09 @ 10:52PM|#

joe p boyle and mng and jennifer flowers

meta-nobody u no|1.9.09 @ 10:54PM|#

spelling is for cosmotarians. so is grammar and capitalization. us über-american Palintrüppen spell from the gut11!1

meta-nobody u no|1.9.09 @ 10:56PM|#

i bet you didnt think we should round up them ayrabs, neither!

cosmotrarian!

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.9.09 @ 10:59PM|#

are you trying to say arabs? they are like totally cool people. haven't you had hummas and vegetarian lamb? you are just a fascist freak. go eat your jack boots.

joe p boyle and mng and jennif|1.9.09 @ 11:03PM|#

let 1K flowers blum's whey down upon the Swanee river he don't know nuthin' he jess keep rollin paper training wheels and deals fair grounds for impeach melba toast of the town house wins 1010abulation currencies are down wid dat, man Friday the 13th tribe

Makes about as much sense.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.9.09 @ 11:06PM|#

faker doode, that was totally uncool.

Meta-nobody u no|1.9.09 @ 11:12PM|#

u r a democrat shill, nobody u no. i bet u watch MSDNC

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.9.09 @ 11:17PM|#

metatool it is not cool to call people ugly names. you need some professional help like from a community clinic or something doode.

cunnivore|1.9.09 @ 11:59PM|#

Another thread destroyed by adolescents using Hit and Run as their personal sandbox. Swell.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.10.09 @ 12:03AM|#

yea man. that tool really spoils a good scene.

|1.10.09 @ 3:40AM|#

More riots! evidently its the only thing that works.

If by "works", you mean "punishes people who aren't the perp", then yeah, riots work great.

-jcr

The Angry Optimist|1.10.09 @ 4:18AM|#

JCR - I take it you are a total pacifist, then? Because war inevitably "punishes people who are not the 'perp'".

|1.10.09 @ 5:48AM|#

google

"only ones" site:waronguns.blogspot.com

and you will get an idea of how these things work.

Mad Max|1.10.09 @ 7:21AM|#

If we could go back to the good old common law, allowing private prosecutions and grand-jury presentments without waiting for the prosecutor to make up his mind, it would be great.

The burden of proving the defendant's guilt would still be as difficult as before, but a single official wouldn't be able to block an indictment.

ed|1.10.09 @ 9:14AM|#

Does the presumption of innocence only extend to non-cop defendants?

Almost always, yes.

Dave W.|1.10.09 @ 9:45AM|#

Until he at least denies premeditation and intention there is PC for first degree murder.

After he denies those things it is still felony murder.

That is what the law is. What the prosecutor will do, is, of course, another thing altogether.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 9:56AM|#

I guess I can make due with the Director's Cut of Monty Python & the Holy Grail instead of a new post here.

|1.10.09 @ 9:57AM|#

JCR - I take it you are a total pacifist, then? Because war inevitably "punishes people who are not the 'perp'".

Or an adherent of traditional just war theory, which holds that wars conducted with the express purpose of punishing people who are not the perp are immoral, but that wars conducted with the purpose of punishing combatants (i.e., perps) are not.

dave w. corrections|1.10.09 @ 10:03AM|#

should have been:

-After he denies those things (and assuming his denial is credible and not contradicted by other evidence) it is still felony murder.--

MNG|1.10.09 @ 10:15AM|#

According to the famous "Docrtine of the Double Effect" in ethics an act which aims at a morally good end but which has the double effect of also causing a morally bad effect can be morally justified when the morally bad effect is foreseen but unintended, but not when the morally bad effect is (even in part) intended (the difference between a terror bomber that intends to kill civilians and military folks in one target and a strategic bomber who intends only military deaths but foresees the inevitability of civilian deaths).

So according to this idea the riots would be condemned to the extent that the intention of them is in part to loot and pillage, while war properly conducted but having the inevitable result of punishing more than the perps would be justified.

Whatever you can say about rioters, they rarely take the great care to minimize third party harm that would allow their actions to be justified.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 10:24AM|#

Go have your riot in DC and leave us in VA alone, okay?

I will not have my Starbucks experience interrupted by your silly shenanigans.

|1.10.09 @ 10:38AM|#

The killer 'resigns' insuring there will be no examination of bus cop dept procedures and training. His colleagues will state 'they were in fear for their lives' during the incident and the execution was necessary. The DA will return only 'involuntary manslaughter' or equal charges and the other attending cops will be charged with nothing.

In TX, if I murdered a person, and if others were in attendance with me, we'd ALL be charged under the 'law of parties'...I'd like to see such action in this case. Of course since these are 'Only Ones' who've murdered a citizen, a different rule book applies.

Screw the bus cops, charge 'em all.

BlueBook|1.10.09 @ 11:07AM|#

Devil's advocate: The SFGate article did mention the possibility that the officer mistakenly grabbed his firearm when he meant to use a taser. Supposedly BART has only recently begun using tasers, and officers had been ordered not to wear them near their guns, so as to avoid that sort of confusion.

Of course, if this were a civilian suspect the police and prosecutor would probably fall over laughing at such a theory.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 11:24AM|#

Is Reason covering the protest this afternoon by the White House?

Should be plenty of those "shove the Jews into the sea" advocates there.

|1.10.09 @ 11:44AM|#

You're also presuming a murder, even though you have no idea what his mens rea is.

IANAL, also IANAI (idiot). A restraioned man, face down, was deliberately shot in the back.

As they say on the sports shows, you make the call.

|1.10.09 @ 12:04PM|#

Premeditation does not require any amount of time. If Cory Maye and Ryan Frederick got charged with murder this guy sure as hell should.

C'mon. You know the de facto rules.

If a cop is shot, the shooter automatically gets charged with first degree murder before even a cursory investigation occurs. After an investigation does occur (all cops get to huddle and coordinate perjury during the investigation), the decision to prosecute first degree murder stands while ten cops swear to the exact same story about what happened.

If a citizen is shot by a cop, charges will only be brought when there is incontrovertible evidence that cop wrongdoing was involved. Even then, a delay has to happen so the cops "brothers in blue" can get together and concoct a story that appears to exonerate or at least justify the LEO's actions.

IIRC, nobody was charged with murder for the death of Kathryn Johnston. Make no mistake about it, she was murdered by cops.

Jennifer|1.10.09 @ 12:04PM|#

When I was a public school teacher, I was held to a MUCH higher standard of behavior than the teens and young adults over whom I had authority: if one of them told me to do something obscene, he'd merely get detention or possibly a suspension, whereas if I said something equally obscene back I'd be fired. The assumption was simple and obvious: I had a level of government-granted authority and power, therefore, I should be held to a higher standard than those over whom I had this power. Yet the actual power I had over those students was minimal: even if I wanted to abuse it, the worst I could've done was given a lower-than-earned grade, or possibly postponed the kid's graduation by a semester. No power of life and death. No authority to take their freedom away for months or years at a time.

There's no way any non-cop in America would still be walking free today, over a week after being caught on video in front of several eyewitnesses shooting an unarmed, subdued man in the back. Since these cops have authority, they should be held to a HIGHER standard than ordinary citizens, not given a "Commit one murder free" card upon receiving a badge.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 12:57PM|#

Here at Lafayette Square, the space is about 10% full of people with bad chants. "Free free Palestine Occupation is a Crime".

Not quite worth the METRO ride.

Some frungy chick just tried to give me literature. Shooed her away before she could ask for a donation.

||1.10.09 @ 1:37PM|#

"Guy Montag | January 10, 2009, 12:57pm | #
Here at Lafayette Square, the space is about 10% full of people with bad chants. "Free free Palestine Occupation is a Crime".

What the hell does that have to do with the subject of the thread?

|1.10.09 @ 1:53PM|#

I'd argue this guy is even more dangerous now. As an ex-cop there is a 100% probability he owns personal firearms. Hell, there's nothing stopping him from buying more guns; he hasn't been convicted of anything.

So, people have threatened his life, his career is over, he's unemployed and nobody seems to know where he is. Wonder if any public "servants" would get fired if he loaded for bear and went and shot up a shopping mall.

Nah, probably not.

Embedded blogger at David v. G|1.10.09 @ 1:58PM|#

What the hell does that have to do with the subject of the thread?

It's an analogue (and, interactively, you get to choose who stands for whom).

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 2:16PM|#

What the hell does that have to do with the subject of the thread?

Since this is the unofficial weekend open thread, everything.

Fluffy|1.10.09 @ 2:18PM|#

Here's why I'm surprised no charges have been brought:

It's beyond dispute that the cop shot the guy. To defeat the presumption that he committed a crime, he has to offer a justification. ["I'm a cop and he's black and I thought his belt was secretly a boa constrictor he was about to draw."

If the guy refuses to offer a statement justifying his action, it's inappropriate for the DA to presume such justification. He should be immediately arrested.

This is one of the few situations where the refusal to submit to questioning does, in fact, count towards establishing guilt - where the suspect needs to offer justification to defeat the potential charge, and won't.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 2:19PM|#

I tired of the smelly noisey protestors about the time a group of them decided to line up in front of the park bench I was occupying, kneel, bow and babble some sort of religos stuff.

Have since relocated to the safety and serenity of Virginia, sipping a beer and waiting for the Titans game to begin.

Fluffy|1.10.09 @ 2:21PM|#

Since Guy wants this to be a football thread too, I will offer the following contribution:

Bret Favre sucks.

That is all.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 2:22PM|#

OC: Looks to me like the cop is guilty as hell. That is my default anyway, but have been known to take the other side or a more nuanced approach, especially when Radley goes way over the top, IMHO. Since this is not a Radley story it was written a bit more calmly it seems.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 2:23PM|#

Fluffy,

I second your football comment.

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 2:27PM|#

What the hell does that have to do with the subject of the thread?

I could be wrong, but I think that Guy is attempting to establish his bona fides as a crusty old whiner.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 2:40PM|#

Was that an endorsement from one of the premere whiners on H&R lmnop?

anarch|1.10.09 @ 2:44PM|#

One man's whiner is another man's freedom fighter.

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 2:47PM|#

I thought Guy had Elemenope blocked? Curious.

Oh, and I agree Brett Favre sucks. Wait, till you meet his family from the Kiln. Aaaarrrgggghhhh!!!

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 2:52PM|#

Was that an endorsement from one of the premiere whiners on H&R lmnop?

No, what I did was called "snark". Different from whining. I'm sure you, being a bright fellow, can figure out the difference.

You're usually amusing and sometimes insightful, and if it weren't for the fact that you have a tendency to stick your digital fingers in your ears (and eyes) and scream "LA LA LA!" at the top of your lungs every time someone criticized your position or disagreed with you, I'd have a great deal more respect for you.

uh...|1.10.09 @ 2:53PM|#

digital fingers

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 2:57PM|#

Hmmmmmm . . . Guy and Elemenope making up here would be the equivalent to the Crips and the Bloods calling a truce. Momentous occasion possible . . .

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 3:02PM|#

digital fingers

Yeah, intentional but corny, I know.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 3:13PM|#

Multiple responses follow:

One man's whiner is another man's freedom fighter.

Well, there is that. lmnop does market himself as some sort of champion of the 'poor' on regular occasion.

thought Guy had Elemenope blocked? Curious.

I did on my old computer. Did not bother messing with filters on this new one. Going back to my old method of actively scrolling past and ignoring stuff that is not worth the bother.

No, what I did was called "snark". Different from whining. I'm sure you, being a bright fellow, can figure out the difference.

Apparently your jerking knee prevented you from noticing that it was a general observation, not a comment on your comment.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 3:15PM|#

lmnop,

"We are the Champions" was playing in the bar as I read your longer post. Perhaps it is a sign from gaia.

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 3:18PM|#

lmnop does market himself as some sort of champion of the 'poor' on regular occasion.

Er, huh?

Apparently your jerking knee prevented you from noticing that it was a general observation, not a comment on your comment.

I know. What I'm saying is you usually mistake my snark for whine.

"We are the Champions" was playing in the bar as I read your longer post. Perhaps it is a sign from gaia.

Fucking ROFL!

|1.10.09 @ 3:31PM|#

Wasn't Guy leaving the country so we wouldn't have to hear from be able to converse with him?

Or was that some other sub-normal H&R regular?

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 3:36PM|#

J sub D,

Apparently Guy was broadcasting from an "undisclosed location". My guess at the time was that he was hangin' with Cheney and shooting people in the face. Just a guess though.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 3:39PM|#

J sub D,

I njust have not left yet and it is not happening as swiftly as I would like.

Don't worry, I shall have an intertubes pipe there too.

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 3:42PM|#

That would be a cool show. "Hangin' with Cheney" and every episode the neighbor next door could be shot in the face. But only after he has shown Cheney the evil of his ways for that episode. Also, we should never see the neighbors face. Ever. That would be wicked!

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 3:51PM|#

NS,

What would I need Cheney for if they were on my lawn? If I had a lawn . . .

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 3:53PM|#

Guy,

In answer to your question . . . yes.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 3:57PM|#

NS,

LOL, can you expand on that?

BDB|1.10.09 @ 4:01PM|#

Who would be Cheney's wacky sidekick, NS?

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 4:05PM|#

Well Guy, it's like this . . . exactly.

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 4:05PM|#

BDB,

Clearly it would be Michael Moore.

Naga Sadow|1.10.09 @ 4:06PM|#

Gotta go people. Later.

Guy Montag|1.10.09 @ 4:08PM|#

Yea, almost game time.

|1.10.09 @ 4:16PM|#

You guys are too kind to call this a murder. I stand by my initial reaction that this was the public execution of an innocent man (or atleast one who was not proven guilty of anything).

I would have no qualms with a public execution of the perpetrator, if proven guilty.

thoreau|1.10.09 @ 5:13PM|#

Guy Montag | January 10, 2009, 3:39pm | #
J sub D,

I njust have not left yet and it is not happening as swiftly as I would like.

Don't worry, I shall have an intertubes pipe there too.

I seem to recall that Mr. Montag was going to be doing something for Uncle Sam in some sort of dangerous place. I obviously don't want any harm to befall any human being (or even Guy Montag) but if some insurgents were to damage a fiber-optic cable, well, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Syd|1.10.09 @ 6:06PM|#

tired dog | January 10, 2009, 10:38am | #
The killer 'resigns' insuring there will be no examination of bus cop dept procedures and training. His colleagues will state 'they were in fear for their lives' during the incident and the execution was necessary.

Well, they should have been in fear of their lives. They're witnesses to a murder.

Lefiti|1.10.09 @ 6:16PM|#

Mafia hit men don't fucking resign! Privatize the police!

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 6:18PM|#

Well, they should have been in fear of their lives. They're witnessesaccomplices to a murder.

They witnessed a man shoot someone in the back, and did not act to restrain--much less arrest--him, as would be dictated by their duty as police officers, if not human beings.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.10.09 @ 6:38PM|#

jay i call it murder. fascist corporation murder. you know the corporations own our government and the pigs were just doing their corporate duty. just read the online paper at my link and you will see.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.10.09 @ 6:39PM|#

elemenope, right on man.

B|1.10.09 @ 8:33PM|#

"What the hell does that have to do with the subject of the thread?"

There's a new thread sheriff in town...

MNG|1.10.09 @ 8:42PM|#

Does anybody not think the "nobody you know" guy is SIV? The same inability to go past two sentences and the same Georgian theocratic mindset. C'mon SIV, just present yourself as a defender of cockfighting and get over it.

Reinmoose|1.10.09 @ 8:59PM|#

They witnessed a man shoot someone in the back, and did not act to restrain--much less arrest--him, as would be dictated by their duty as police officers, if not human beings.

Right on brother Elemenope

I can't believe I missed this story all week

Meta-nobody u no and a big fan|1.10.09 @ 9:00PM|#

mng, cockfighting is the greatest american sport ever.

cute little puppies can eat shit or die, but a clump of cells in a dish should have full human rights! unless u r a cosmotarian or progressive enabler.

nobody u no and a big fan of s|1.10.09 @ 9:02PM|#

oh yeah i love dog fighting, bear baiting, and kitten stomping, too. property rights!

meta-nobody u no and a big fan|1.10.09 @ 9:05PM|#

and i really wish i could drive a big dirty coal powered hummer hooked up to my neighbors lungs and blast the exhaust right into them just to show the little greenie bastards! yeah! haha! so what if i get cancer too?

The Wine Commonsewer|1.10.09 @ 9:20PM|#

Even Wyatt Earp was brought to trial over the shootings at the OK Corral.

Why hasn't this bastard DA in Oakland moved to indict?

Nick|1.10.09 @ 9:38PM|#

Does the presumption of innocence only extend to non-cop defendants?

Actually, this cop hasn't been charged with anything yet, meaning that the state is extending to him a presumption of innocence and preferential treatment that non-cop defendants could only dream of. For us non-jurists, the captured-on-video thing does kinda hurt his presumption-of-innocence thing, by the way.

If a black guy "accidentally" shot a cop in the back, he would already be 2/3rds of the way to Death Row right now.

Bets that when (if) the cop finally gets indicted, his bail is low enough for him to afford (contrary to the average citizen-killer), and that in the off-chance he's actually convicted, he won't get more that 10 years?

On that note, bets that if he is found innocent or gets an insubstantial sentence, riots will break out across the country?

EJM|1.10.09 @ 9:53PM|#

Just in case, the newest story in the current Google News cluster is "Brown appoints prosecutor to oversee BART probe".

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 9:53PM|#

On that note, bets that if he is found innocent or gets an insubstantial sentence, riots will break out across the country?

Once (if?!) he is indicted, I expect violence in Oakland to subside. Then, if he gets acquitted/slap on the wrist, violence will again break out in Oakland. Then, if there is a controversial incident involving the cops during the riots, there is potential for the thing to spiral outwards.

By way of comparison, there was no serious unrest outside of L.A. in the wake of the Rodney King officers' trial, even though L.A. itself was consumed by violence.

Elemenope|1.10.09 @ 9:54PM|#

Just in case, the newest story in the current Google News cluster is "Brown appoints prosecutor to oversee BART probe".

What I find priceless about the "overseer" is that he sounds so timid about interfering, it's likely he will operate only as a fig leaf for the process.

|1.10.09 @ 10:06PM|#

"you know the corporations own our government and the pigs were just doing their corporate duty."

Do you reckon if our congress critters abided by the Constitution (particularly the 10th amendment) it would be profitable for rent seekers to bribe our congress critters for favors?

Isn't it ironic that your ilk wants to provide more power to our congress critters, subsequently raising the profitability of rent seekings and making some previously negative NPV bribes, positive?

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.10.09 @ 11:42PM|#

jay if we had a truly freedom constitution with personal rights and rights to housing and healthcare that would not be an issue.

nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.10.09 @ 11:53PM|#

jay if we give power to the people and take it from the corporations then the "rent seeking" you are saying will go away.

|1.11.09 @ 12:27AM|#

I take it you are a total pacifist, then?

Nope. There is such a thing as a just war, although all wars are tragic.

-jcr

|1.11.09 @ 1:25AM|#

Go read a book on game theory with regards to voting theory. You will realize how retarded the following statement is in the context of the federal government of the United States...

"jay if we give power to the people and take it from the corporations"

|1.11.09 @ 1:35AM|#

"jay if we had a truly freedom constitution with personal rights and rights to housing and healthcare that would not be an issue."

Along with the right to "private jets" (freedom of transportation). Body guards (right to life). I could go on all night.

You must be one of the Michael Moore kool-aid drinkers that thinks healthcare is not rationed under national healthcare. I love you lefties, because you regularly denounce the laws of supply and demand.

|1.11.09 @ 1:58AM|#

Seamus,

I would go a bit further in just war theory and say that during a war, the most moral course of action (assuming a negotiated peace isn't feasible) is to kill the top leadership of the opposing forces.

So, an optimal outcome of the action in Gaza would be to kill the top thugs of Hamas, and proceed down their chain of command until you found someone willing to call off the rockets.

-jcr

Elemenope|1.11.09 @ 2:48AM|#

So, an optimal outcome of the action in Gaza would be to kill the top thugs of Hamas, and proceed down their chain of command until you found someone willing to call off the rockets.

"Now this is all the money Niska gave us in advance. You give it back to him, tell him the job didn't work out. We're not thieves -- well, we are thieves, but -- the point is, we're not taking what's his. We'll stay out
of his way as best we can from here on in. You'll explain that's best for everyone, okay?"

--Keep the money. Use it to buy a funeral. It doesn't matter where you go, how far you fly -- I will hunt you down and the last thing
you see will be my blade.

"Darn."

[Kick. Sound of Crow being sucked through jet engine]

"Now. this is all the money Niska --"

--Oh I get it! I'm good! Best for everyone, I'm right there with you.

nobody u no and big fan of joe|1.11.09 @ 5:54AM|#

jay your private jets example is another exageration to silence progressive thought.

nobody should have private jets. they should be used according to need.

Thrifty private-jet owner|1.11.09 @ 6:53AM|#

they should be used according to need

Agreed.

nobody u no and big fan of joe|1.11.09 @ 8:13AM|#

are you one of those people who think we should "own" animals too?

nobody u no and big fan of joe|1.11.09 @ 8:24AM|#

thrifty flying cars are only 2 years away. would be quicker if it were not for the corporations keeping them off the market.

Bill R|1.11.09 @ 9:27AM|#

Don't shoot me dead bro?

Johnny Nowhere|1.11.09 @ 9:34AM|#

My prediction: Mehserle is found dead by his own hand.

Guy Montag|1.11.09 @ 9:49AM|#

Interesting protest sign. I do not think he is talking about Simpson there either.

Protests from the old days were much nicer.

Dave W.|1.11.09 @ 10:13AM|#

My prediction: Mehserle will be found dead in circumstances that look like suicide. Like Dr. David Kelly or the anthrax guy.

Guy Montag|1.11.09 @ 10:18AM|#

As long as he stays out of the Castle Anthrax, that is fine Dave.

|1.11.09 @ 10:26AM|#

Why hasn't this bastard DA in Oakland moved to indict?

This, I believe, is what we refer to as a "rhetorical" question.

Dave W.|1.11.09 @ 11:29AM|#

jokes the military contractor . . .

Dave W.|1.11.09 @ 12:10PM|#

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/farces/mehserle.jpg

|1.11.09 @ 12:44PM|#

"jay your private jets example is another exageration to silence 'progressive' thought."

'progressive' - adj. of or relating to the Progressive party.

not to be confused with

'progressive' - adj. moving forward, advancing

The two are not synonomous.

|1.11.09 @ 12:52PM|#

"nobody should have private jets. they should be used according to need."

Good to know I'm dealing with a bat-shit insane Marxist. You have your head so far up your ass you'll never see the light of day.

"thrifty flying cars are only 2 years away. would be quicker if it were not for the corporations keeping them off the market.

I thought we were trying to reduce our carbon foot print, not increase it?

robc|1.11.09 @ 12:53PM|#

lmnop,

there was no serious unrest outside of L.A. in the wake of the Rodney King officers' trial, even though L.A. itself was consumed by violence.

Not entirely true, depending on your definition of serious. There was some rioting in Atlanta too. Enough that I had a friend flying into town that day and I picked him up at Hartsfield, instead of him taking MARTA.

It turned out that MARTA was perfectly safe, but there was some worry about it.

Elemenope|1.11.09 @ 12:55PM|#

Good to know I'm dealing with a bat-shit insane Marxist.

Nah, man, you just got trolled.

Not entirely true, depending on your definition of serious. There was some rioting in Atlanta too. Enough that I had a friend flying into town that day and I picked him up at Hartsfield, instead of him taking MARTA.

It turned out that MARTA was perfectly safe, but there was some worry about it.

Huh. I hadn't heard about that. Thanks for the info.

SIV|1.11.09 @ 1:47PM|#

Video of CNN coverage of Atlanta 1992 riot

A quick search didn't find much.Apparently 300 people were arrested.I was in the ATL area then and I remember two things.A white motorist was dragged from his car and beaten into a coma.IIRC he "recovered" somewhat but suffered severe brain damage.There was live TV coverage of Korean grocers on the roof of their store as it was being looted.They were rescued by police helicopter.
The Atlanta "copycat" riot was quite unexpected at the time.

There was apparently riots in other cities as well(including Las Vegas and Toronto!) but I have no specific knowledge of them.

BlueBook|1.11.09 @ 2:46PM|#

In related news, there is still intermittent rioting in Greece. Did they ever sort out exactly what happened in that case (a cop shooting some teenager)?

Naga Sadow|1.11.09 @ 3:43PM|#

Will these flying cars also run on water just like that car in the 70's that supposedly was "covered up" by the evil oil companies?

*plays X-files music*

The Angry Optimist|1.11.09 @ 3:49PM|#

How special: Tom Orloff, the DA for the county where this cop should be charged, has already filed charges against some of the rioters, but "said he expects to make a decision in about two weeks on whether to file criminal charges against former BART Officer Johannes Mehserle."

So this motherfucker didn't waste any time filing charges against rioters, but is going to wait until the 23rd of January to even make a decision about whether charges will be filed? What the fuck?:

Source.

|1.11.09 @ 4:02PM|#

How special: Tom Orloff, the DA for the county where this cop should be charged, has already filed charges against some of the rioters, but "said he expects to make a decision in about two weeks on whether to file criminal charges against former BART Officer Johannes Mehserle."

Some are more equal than others. But we all know that.

Here's a thought exercise. The same thing happens on a dark street corner in a bad neighborhood. What do the other cops put in their reports? Does a throw down weapon/drugs get dropped on the dead guy?

On second thought, stupid question, never mind.

TAO, your link is not working. Error Code: 502 Proxy Error. The host was not found.(11001)

The Angry Optimist|1.11.09 @ 4:10PM|#

J sub - I don't know why it is not working for you. When I click on it, it works. Hm.

Anyway, the other appalling thing about this is what Fluffy talked about eariler: Orloff is 'pondering' whether to bring second-degree murder charges (which mean the officer had a "knowing" intent to shoot Grant) or involuntary manslaughter charges (meaning the officer was reckless). The part that is appalling is that Orloff is even considering charging recklessness: he has no evidence that the shooting was anything but intentional!. Right now, because Mehserle refuses to give a statement of any kind, how is it that Orloff is magically injecting "accident" into this? He has no evidence for that.

Charge Mehserle with 2nd-degree murder and let him convince a jury that this was an accident.

EJM|1.11.09 @ 4:51PM|#

TAO, your link is not working.

Try this.

(The "?nclick_check=1" at the tail end of the original URL may have caused some issues.)

EJM|1.11.09 @ 4:59PM|#

On a related note, the "Inside Bay Area" site (which would include the "Oakland Tribune") apparently has a related special section.

MNG|1.11.09 @ 5:29PM|#

I'm sure someone has had to mention this already, but imagine this tape existed but it was of a civilian shooting a bound police officer. Now imagine how the DA would be acting.

We need civilian review boards everywhere. For starters.

Kolohe|1.11.09 @ 5:34PM|#

Pro Tip:
If your going to engage in some civil disobedience, leave the cocaine at home.

Kolohe|1.11.09 @ 5:36PM|#

Also, from TAO's link:
Wednesday's demonstration was the first time many Oakland police officers - of whom only half have been on the force for more than two years
*Half* are under two years?
Wow. The Iraqi and Afghani National Police Forces have more experience than this.

Kolohe|1.11.09 @ 5:43PM|#

As a more 'scientific' comparison, the median reply to this