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Suicide Solution?
The wave of post-Sept. 11 anthrax attacks, as Jeff Taylor wrote in this space a month ago, is one of the murkiest and most unsatisfying criminal cases in recent U.S. history. Today comes news that teases satisfaction, while deepening the murk:
A top government scientist who helped the FBI analyze samples from the 2001 anthrax attacks has died in Maryland from an apparent suicide, just as the Justice Department was about to file criminal charges against him for the attacks, the Los Angeles Times has learned.
Bruce E. Ivins, 62, who for the last 18 years worked at the government's elite biodefense research laboratories at Ft. Detrick, Md., had been informed of his impending prosecution, said people familiar with Ivins, his suspicious death and the FBI investigation.
Ivins, whose name had not been disclosed publicly as a suspect in the case, played a central role in research to improve anthrax vaccines by preparing anthrax formulations used in experiments on animals.
Whole thing here. Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a public* suspect only after their death, particularly in a case that has already produced a $5.82 million settlement for the last government scientist who was accused of the crime.
* I added the word "public" there, because it was silent in the original.
Nigel Watt|8.1.08 @ 9:34AM|#
Yeah, I don't think this provides any closure. "We got him! --and he's dead!" is a cop-out.
|8.1.08 @ 9:36AM|#
Today comes news that teases satisfaction, while deepening
the murk:
That is a perfect description of this development.
ed|8.1.08 @ 9:37AM|#
Ivins, whose name had not been disclosed publicly
Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a suspect only after
their death
He was a suspect before his death, but the investigators learned a
lesson from the previous "person of interest": leaking that info
could cost you $5 million in a lawsuit settlement.
|8.1.08 @ 9:38AM|#
"We got him! --and he's dead!" is a cop-out.
Only if it is not true. The fact that he killed himself when he
found out he was being charged doesn't make him guilty but it also
doesn't make him innocent.
|8.1.08 @ 9:39AM|#
Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a suspect only
after their death
Some sources are saying he only killed himself after his lawyer was
informed that charges were about to be filed.
One of those sources is the lead paragraph of the article you
linked:
A top government scientist who helped the FBI analyze samples from the 2001 anthrax attacks has died in Maryland from an apparent suicide, just as the Justice Department was about to file criminal charges against him for the attacks, the Los Angeles Times has learned.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 9:39AM|#
Don't you get it? He took an "overdose" of Tylenol 3 (Tylenol + codeine), just like Marylin Monroe. This is all a cover-up. JFK is responsible--don't you know he's been dyed black and is living in East Texas in a nursing home with Elvis?
|8.1.08 @ 9:40AM|#
Umm, motive?
Can someone refresh my recollection on what day(s) the anthrax was
mailed?
|8.1.08 @ 9:41AM|#
If I was the wrong guy, I wouldn't kill myself. I'd wait for it to all shake out and collect my 5 million smackaroos.
|8.1.08 @ 9:42AM|#
R C Dean,
Well, he was a bioweapons researcher... An anthrax scare would get
billions pumped into his field of study. I know it sounds like Bond
villain logic, but it is a motive.
ed|8.1.08 @ 9:45AM|#
Maybe he was just sad? Or had a really bad
headache?
Those pictures of Bobby Kennedy in his wallet seem odd.
|8.1.08 @ 9:48AM|#
Of course they're going to read suicide = guilt into this, and that's going to be the end of this case. It's just as likely to mean that he saw what the media did to Hatfill (or Richard Jewell...) and knew what was going to happen regardless of his guilt or innocence. Sometimes people can't take that, even if they might get some settlement in the future.
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 9:48AM|#
1. Not "government scientist," but --US Army scientist.-- Et tu,
Mr. Welch?
2. There was a conspiracy.
3. This death was accomplished to keep the conspiracy secret so
that youngsters like Dave "Weigs" Weigel can keep living in their
Fools' Paradise.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 9:51AM|#
Dave, please explain to us the conspiracy, as you seem to know it all. Does it involve a mummy in a cowboy hat?
|8.1.08 @ 9:53AM|#
R C Dean | August 1, 2008, 9:40am | #
Umm, motive?
Most people who commit suicide have a serious mental illness.
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 9:53AM|#
Staying on the Weigel-beat for a mo', this is proof positive that the republican establishment thinks it is Obama in '08.
Matt Welch|8.1.08 @ 9:57AM|#
I've added the prefix "public" to "suspect," since that is indeed what I meant. Thanks.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 10:00AM|#
Dave, please take me for a ride on the Insane-o-flex and explain what the conspiracy is. Come on.
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 10:08AM|#
Cheney knew a terrorist attack was coming and instructed his
friends high up in the military that if such an attack happened,
then they were to follow it up with some bio-terrorism, the details
of which bio-terrorism may have been more or less specified.
Cheney further directed that the trigger code would be an
announcement that he was going to an "undisclosed location."
ed|8.1.08 @ 10:13AM|#
Most people who commit suicide have a serious mental
illness
Huh? It takes courage to kill yourself. Suicide has gotten a bad
rap. It's the ultimate demonstration of independence, and if you do
it right you can spare your loved ones a lot of hassle and
inconvenience. Sell your crap, cancel your subscriptions, pay your
bills, get your will notarized, empty the garbage and say
goodnight. People will respect you for that.
kinnath|8.1.08 @ 10:15AM|#
Dave, if you're afraid of using Prozac or Zoloft, the over-the-counter St John's Wort has been proven to be just as effective without the negative sexual side effects.
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 10:17AM|#
Partrick leahy comments from almost a year ago are worth
revisiting:
VDB: Okay, I wanted to jump to the anthrax letter, what's
now known as the Leahy Letter. There was the one that was mailed to
you, and the one that went out to Tom Daschle -
Leahy: And people died just from touching it.
leahy letter
VDB: Exactly. And in a way, it's like the hunt for Bin Laden: since
there's no good news, there's just complete radio silence from the
White House. I'm wondering if you're satisfied with the progress of
that investigation -
Leahy: [Face a thundercloud now and voice emphatic and loud enough
to turn heads at nearby tables] No! [Then again] No!
VDB: - and do they keep you apprized in any way of the progress of
it?
Leahy: [More quietly] I've had discussions.
VDB: Yeah.
Leahy: I'm a little sensitive on this one, because two people died
touching an envelope I was supposed to open.
VDB: Sure.
Leahy: I feel badly for them, and for their families. And we spent
three years, Marcelle and I couldn't go anywhere without heavily
armed people around us. Finally, I said, This guy's not going to
try anything, and our family wants our privacy back. [Meditatively]
I wish they had turned this investigation over to some good sheriff
or police chief somewhere. I think it's been very badly
handled.
VDB: Yeah, I don't think there's any other way to look at it. And
when you call it what it is, it was biological warfare conducted
against the highest levels of the US government.
Leahy: What I want to know - I have a theory. But what I want to
know is why me, why Tom Daschle, why Tom Brokaw?
VDB: Right. That all fits into the profile of a kind of hard-core
and obviously insane ideologue on the far Right, somebody who would
fixate on especially Tom Daschle, who at that point was the target
of daily, vitriolic attacks on Right-wing talk radio.
Leahy: [Slowly, with a little shake of the head] I don't think it's
somebody insane. I'd accept everything else you said. But I don't
think it's somebody insane. And I think there are people within our
government - certainly from the source of it - who know where it
came from. [Taps the table to let that settle in] And these people
may not have had anything to do with it, but they certainly know
where it came from.
|8.1.08 @ 10:19AM|#
Not "government scientist," but --US Army
scientist.
I've always suspected that the US Army wasn't part of the
government! Ah-ha!
|8.1.08 @ 10:24AM|#
My theory is that some Mylroie-crazed people in the Pentagon or
OVP saw that their desire to invade Iraq after 9/11 was losing to
the rational plan to attack bin Laden in Afghanistan, so ordered
that the anthrax be sent out to some prominent officials and media
figures, in order to frame Iraq.
They probably figured the death toll would be small, especially
compared to 9/11, and thus an acceptable amount of collateral
damage.
|8.1.08 @ 10:24AM|#
Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a public* suspect
only after their death, particularly in a case that has already
produced a $5.82 million settlement for the last government
scientist who was accused of the crime.
This may have been the guy.
This may be complete bullshit of cops lying to make themselves look
good. We've seen cops and DAs do that sort of self serving perjury
so often, cynicism is warranted here.
|8.1.08 @ 10:26AM|#
ed,
Most suicides aren't like the honorable seppuku you describe.
Most suicides are committed by people who are so miserable and in
so much fear and pain that they're just trying to make it stop.
Chicago|8.1.08 @ 10:28AM|#
It's tough to assume that he was necessarily guilty - he lost his security clearance and was escorted out of the labs after telling a shrink that he was contemplating suicide. Whether this was before he heard that he was to be charged may have something to do with it, but regardless, his career was over because of that. His kids were grown, he didn't have money enough for legal defence, and the gov't wanted someone to pin it on, guilty or no. I can see why he took that option, regardless of guilt.
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 10:28AM|#
I am right here. As you wish:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22I+don%E2%80%99t+think+it%E2%80%99s+somebody+insane.+I%E2%80%99d+accept+everything+else+you+said.+But+I+don%E2%80%99t+think+it%E2%80%99s+somebody+insane.+And+I+think+there+are+people+within+our+government+%E2%80%94+certainly+from+the+source+of+it+%E2%80%94+who+know+where+it+came+from.%22&btnG=Search
Dave W.|8.1.08 @ 10:30AM|#
I would be depressed if I killed all those elderly people, too. I don't think they ever definitively announced how many. there will be enough "negligent entrustment" suits against Fort Detrick as it is.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 10:33AM|#
ed, joe is 100% correct on the suicide thing. Suicide is a selfish, frightened act by a desperate, depressed person who thinks oblivion is better than what they are currently feeling or experiencing. They are emphatically not thinking about the people that they leave behind and what the suicide will do to them.
|8.1.08 @ 10:33AM|#
Dave W.
Are there public metal heath services in your area? If so, please
drop into one of the clinics for a conversation with a
professional.
I'm not insulting you. I'm dead serious.
|8.1.08 @ 10:34AM|#
The CIA has a term for this...he was "suicided"...kinda like the
dc madam who retired went to florida, went on national radio saying
she WOULD NOT kill herself and then paid a years rent before
hanging herself that afternoon.
Deborah Jeane Palfrey: listen to her interview on yotube...sound
like she was going to kill herself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzvrgQ5hOM4
ed|8.1.08 @ 10:34AM|#
Most suicides are committed by people who are so miserable
and in so much fear and pain that they're just trying to make it
stop.
Indeed. But they're not insane.
|8.1.08 @ 10:38AM|#
Episiarch | August 1, 2008, 10:33am | #
ed, joe is 100% correct on the suicide thing. Suicide is a selfish,
frightened act by a desperate, depressed person who thinks oblivion
is better than
...you guys are a little presumptious on this...I have no problem
classifying many suicides as you describe...but couldn't someboday
also say take these pills or we are raping and killing your
children? I'm sure that has happened at some point in our world
history. I'm also sure that at some point someone has murdered
someone and succesfully made others think it was suicide...your
100% declaritives are crap.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 10:43AM|#
Gabe, spare me your paranoid delusions. I'm talking about real life here, not an episode of The Lone Gunmen. If you want to assert that people have been killed and been made to look like suicide, sure, I'm sure it has happened. But that's not what ed, joe, and I are talking about.
|8.1.08 @ 11:05AM|#
gabe,
Here's what I wrote:
Most people who commit suicide have a serious mental
illness.
Most suicides aren't like the honorable seppuku you describe.
Most suicides are committed by people who are so miserable and in
so much fear and pain that they're just trying to make it
stop.
Don't give me your horseshit about made-up scenarios that musta
happened once in world history. You know what "most" means,
right?
|8.1.08 @ 11:06AM|#
Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a public* suspect
only after their death
I suppose--let's just say the burden is still on the feds to
present the case information somewhere. I presume it will someday
be available via a FOIA request.
In the article, they mention a very questionable contamination
incident involving Ivins. And for "motive", there's this quote from
his older brother:
"I was questioned by the feds, and I sung like a canary" about
Bruce Ivins' personality and tendencies, Thomas Ivins said.
"He had in his mind that he was omnipotent."
Been there|8.1.08 @ 11:14AM|#
Epi sez:
Suicide is a selfish, frightened act by a desperate, depressed
person who thinks oblivion is better than what they are currently
feeling or experiencing. They are emphatically not thinking about
the people that they leave behind and what the suicide will do to
them.
Dear Epi,
Believe me that I'm being completely sincere in my wishes for your
continued good fortune when I say I hope you never change your
opinion on this matter.
JLE|8.1.08 @ 11:15AM|#
No one will ever know the entire truth on this. Information is intentionally compartmentalized so that no one involved knows more than their specific part in the plan. The scientists don't know what the targets know, the politicians don't know what the military knows, etc. and so on. I'm sure the scientists themselves didn't know what they were making anthrax for--rather they were probably fed disinformation. There are only tiny pieces scattered around that won't become whole, just like every government operation. Duh.
Episiarch|8.1.08 @ 11:20AM|#
Believe me that I'm being completely sincere in my wishes
for your continued good fortune when I say I hope you never change
your opinion on this matter.
You've "been there" on which end; the "I have attempted suicide"
end or the "I have had a person close to me commit suicide"?
Because those two viewpoints have vastly different
perspectives.
|8.1.08 @ 11:21AM|#
"I have no problem classifying many suicides as you
describe...but couldn't someboday also say take these pills or we
are raping and killing your children? I'm sure that has happened at
some point in our world history."
I guess you've never heard of Rommel, huh?
See also Frankie Pentangeli's discussion with Tom Hagen.
|8.1.08 @ 11:28AM|#
joe spare me your hypocritical criticism I said quote:
"I have no problem classifying many suicides as you describe"
what part of "many" don't you understand?...that doesn't mean I
believe that a person goes on radio and says they are "not going to
kill themselves" and "if I'm suicided it is because they got
me"...and then goes and prepays their rent for many months and
hangs themselves.
I don't think that suspected foul play in such a casse is paranoid
by ANY commonly accepted definition...The only people who think
Palfrey case is legit are naive...now maybe it is paranoid to now
immediately suspect this "anthrax attacker " was suicided...but
there are a lot of unanswered questions and I think Welch is smart
to be suspicious. If this guy was o guilty why didn't the CIA, FBI
homeland security guys track it back to him bofre 2008? aren't they
trying to STOP terror attacks?! It doesn't seem to take a sherlock
holmes to decide to send somebody to talk to the the bioweapons guy
sometimes before 7 years after the attack?!?
I suppose you just assumed the anthrax attacks came from bin laden
the last 7 years? is that what the correct non-paranoid person has
been thinking all this time?
Fluffy|8.1.08 @ 11:32AM|#
Guys, there is no reason to postulate a complicated conspiracy
when a minor one will do:
Maybe this guy committed suicide, and the FBI heard about it, and
someone said, "Hey, we can get people off our back about this
anthrax thing if we tell the LA Times we were about to get the
Justice Department to indict this guy."
It doesn't have to be a Truther conspiracy. It doesn't have to be a
coverup. It can just be cops putting the blame on a dead guy
because that's convenient for them as cops.
BTW:
...he lost his security clearance and was escorted out of the
labs after telling a shrink that he was contemplating
suicide.
So the lesson here is: Always lie to shrinks. Or better yet, don't
seek out mental health assistance. Ever. Because it will always be
used against you in the end, and nothing you may think you know
about confidentiality means anything at all.
Les|8.1.08 @ 11:36AM|#
Les|8.1.08 @ 11:38AM|#
The fact that he killed himself when he found out he was
being charged doesn't make him guilty but it also doesn't make him
innocent.
He should already be presumed innocent until he's shown to be
guilty.
Other Matt|8.1.08 @ 11:39AM|#
When you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras.
Similarly, when you read fuckwittery, think joe, there is no need
to go further.
Whether this was before he heard that he was to be charged may
have something to do with it, but regardless, his career was over
because of that. His kids were grown, he didn't have money enough
for legal defence, and the gov't wanted someone to pin it on,
guilty or no. I can see why he took that option, regardless of
guilt.
The difference here is that the govt was was intending to indict,
not just declare him a "person of interest" as previously done.
Further, they apparantly intended to seek the death penalty. This
would indicate something stronger in terms of actual evidence than
with Hatfield, and him testing/cleaning desks is a hell of a lot
more plausable than the "pond" theory they were chasing around
Gambrill park (I walk my dogs up there a lot, if you'd seen these
ponds you'd realize how ridiculous it would be to think a guy would
haul anthrax all the way up there just to put it under water and do
his thing....but that's another story).
My point is that there are people who commit suicide to avoid the
public humiliation, not necessarily out of honor but out of shame.
I had a martial arts instructor in a dojo I used to teach in do
this, when it was discovered he had carved a peephole into the
women's changing area. His issues were far less than sending anon
bio bombs, but the percieved shame was enough to drive him to it
also.
So, while you are correct that there was a lot coming down on him
in terms of loss of future, etc, my suspicion leans more towards
shame avoidance.
It shall be interesting to see what motivated the original
mailings, if it ever becomes public. Ted K had the idea that
machines would take over the earth. I would be interested to see
what this guy's "thing" was.
|8.1.08 @ 11:40AM|#
Suicide is an action undertaken for any number of reasons that
the living cannot understand. Even when the departed leave a note,
we never comprehend the depth of the effect those feelings had on
them.
If a person has persuasive reasons for suicide and ignores them in
order to appease the people in their lives, that strikes me as
cowardly.
Episarch and joe, while a large number of cases may fit the
patterns you describe, your blanket condemnations of the act itself
seems willfully ignorant and emotionally motivated.
|8.1.08 @ 11:45AM|#
"He should already be presumed innocent until he's shown to be
guilty."
the world changed after 9/11 it is dangerous now to assume everyone
is innocent...we have to assume that you are guilty and anyone who
suspects we are wrong in charging certain people is also guilty of
being a conspiracy mongerer and this anti-american paranoia must be
squashed with an iron fist. Joe and Epi will help me out on this
one, we cannot tolerate insane conspiracy theories.
palfrey is old news ...LETS ROLL!
Alice Bowie|8.1.08 @ 12:04PM|#
The Anthrax Attach after 911 was put in place in some way, shape
or form, by the Mosad (Israeli CIA). After 9/11 happened,
MOSAD saw an opportunity to really PISS off americans even
More...And it worked.
The US knows it...they just won't talk ablut it.
|8.1.08 @ 12:20PM|#
How dare you Alice, you should be put in a prison camp. Everyone knows that Bin Laden committed the anthrax attacks...those dang muslims are insane! Rumsfeld and Cheney are just trying to keep us safe...why else would Obama go along with them and start voting for the patriot act sequels? Obama know we have to fight these terrorist as well. People like Matt Welch, Alice and Gabe need to be stopped and now we are finally getting the power to take them out for good. Soon we will all be safe from these paranoid madmen.
|8.1.08 @ 12:53PM|#
Most people who commit suicide have a serious mental
illness.
That doesn't really give me any reason to believe that he mailed
the anthrax - "he probably had a serious mental illness" describes
about 10% of the people in this country, minimum.
My theory is that some Mylroie-crazed people in the Pentagon or
OVP saw that their desire to invade Iraq after 9/11 was losing to
the rational plan to attack bin Laden in Afghanistan, so ordered
that the anthrax be sent out to some prominent officials and media
figures, in order to frame Iraq.
I think the anthrax was mailed too early for that. I think the
letters were mailed within a few days after 9/11. Nice try,
though.
Other Matt|8.1.08 @ 1:03PM|#
Episarch and joe, while a large number of cases may fit the
patterns you describe, your blanket condemnations of the act itself
seems willfully ignorant and emotionally motivated.
Noooo, not joe...willfully ignorant and emotionally motivated?
Never joe, not joe
|8.1.08 @ 1:34PM|#
Gabe,
what part of "many" don't you understand?...
Well, three parts:
I don't understand why "many" turns your statement into a
refutation of my point.
I don't understand why "many" means I commented on the Palfrey
case.
And I don't understand why "many" means that my observation about
suicide means I think bin Laden sent the anthrax letters.
Those are the parts of "many" that I don't understand.
Mancrush Matt,
.
*kiss kiss* Im n yr hed, obsessing yr thawts agin.
|8.1.08 @ 1:36PM|#
RC,
That doesn't really give me any reason to believe that he
mailed the anthrax - "he probably had a serious mental illness"
describes about 10% of the people in this country, minimum.
Well, you asked "motive?" A motive that could explain both the
anthrax letters and the suicide suggests itself.
I think the anthrax was mailed too early for that. I think the
letters were mailed within a few days after 9/11. Nice try,
though.
There's a memo signed by Donald Rumsfeld, dated 9/14, that
discussing attacking "not just OBL, but SH."
|8.1.08 @ 1:42PM|#
Hugh Atkinson,
Episarch and joe, while a large number of cases may fit the
patterns you describe, your blanket condemnations of the act itself
seems willfully ignorant and emotionally motivated.
1. What condemnation? I think you're mixing me up with Episiarch. I
haven't shared my opinion on the subject of the relativley-rare
episode of mentally-stable people killing themselves. I made an
observation of fact, which is both widely known among experts, and
common sense.
|8.1.08 @ 2:40PM|#
Policing agencies have a dismal record in solving random
poisonings.
Remember the cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules in 1982? Seven dead. No
one ever convicted.
FBI turf warring with Chicago police had more than a little to do
with THAT bungling.
Fluffy|8.1.08 @ 3:08PM|#
I think the anthrax was mailed too early for that. I think
the letters were mailed within a few days after 9/11. Nice try,
though.
Well, the minor league version of this conspiracy theory would be
that the anthrax attacks happened independently, whether by this
dead guy or by some other nut, and the administration decided to
exploit those attacks in order to facilitate its plan to attack
Iraq.
After all, by claiming that this was the guy, the FBI is conceding
that whatever "high placed government sources" told ABC News that
a) the anthrax in the letters had bentonite in it and b) that this
showed that Saddam was probably behind the attacks were lying. If
it was our own anthrax sent by this dead guy, there was no
bentonite in it and whoever told ABC that there was deliberately
lied.
So if it's too crazy to wonder if there was a government conspiracy
to send these letters, let's forget about that. Let's focus instead
on the government conspiracy to leak false information to ABC in
order to try to use the attacks to whip up public support to attack
Iraq.
|8.1.08 @ 3:19PM|#
There's a memo signed by Donald Rumsfeld, dated 9/14, that
discussing attacking "not just OBL, but SH."
And they whipped up the anthrax attacks that day? Holy crap, that's
quick work. You'd think something like this would take more than a
couple of phone calls and a day or two to pull off. You can't just
call around at random, after all - you have to use people you have
the utmost trust in. For that matter, I really don't know if the
Chimpluminati could have set this up for a 9/14 mailing if they
started the day he was sworn in.
I think Fluffy may have about as much of a conspiracy theory as the
facts will bear.
|8.1.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Why bother trying to uncover little government white lies anyway? We know it comes from a good place. Everyone agrees that the government loves us.
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