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Mandatory Volunteerism
Over at the Volokh Conspiracy, Jim Lindgren lays out the powerful players in Service Nation, a creepy new push for national service. The campaign appears to be pretty Obama-friendly, jibing with his recent call for a national service bureaucracy that's "just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military. Of course, McCain has certainly expressed an appreciation for the "a cause greater than yourself" mindset too, including a fondness for—quite literally—the sight of uniformed cadres of young people preparing for a day of service with calisthenics in the public square.
The Service Nation Summit kickoff event is getting promotional help from Time magazine, whose Managing Editor Rick Stengel is a co-chair. Seems like an odd undertaking for a newsweekly, doesn't it? But then, Time has an annoying habit of crossing over into advocacy on issues its editors have deemed too important to leave to impartial reportage.
Lindgren points out that though the campaign is couched in terms that make it appear oriented toward merely encouraging volunteerism, some of its top officials have a history of supporting a more coercive definition "service," including support for Rep. Charlie Rangel's (D-N.Y.) bill to bring back conscription. Most ominously, one of the group's stated goals is to "[l]aunch a debate about why and how America should become a nation of universal national service by 2020."
Note the absence of the word "if."
robc|7.23.08 @ 11:28AM|#
I think I mentioned this before, but Im going to possibly repeat myself. My sister is a high school teacher in MD. Some years back (I have no clue if this still exists) MD added a requirement for XX hours of volunteer work in order to graduate. However, they rejected work that some of the kids had done as part of the scouts because they received a badge for it, hence is wasnt "volunteered". I dont know how they accepted any work that was done, since if it was done in order to receive a diploma, it wasnt volunteer work either.
Josh|7.23.08 @ 11:34AM|#
robc, MD public schools still have that requirement. It's 75 "volunteer" service hours from 6th to 12th grade. In many private schools, it's 150 hours.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 11:39AM|#
If they gave 16-year-olds the vote, I wouldn't be opposed to
adding volunteerism to their education.
But they don't, so this smacks of involuntary servitude.
|7.23.08 @ 11:41AM|#
I've got no kick with private schools that have a service
requirement. If that's the requirement to attend, and your family
doesn't like it, you can go somewhere else. It's the government
schools requiring it that disgusts me.
Does this mean nothing?
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. - U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIII
Everybody involved could brush up on the meaning of voluntary,
too.
Kevin
Alan Vanneman|7.23.08 @ 11:44AM|#
Don't worry. "National Service" gets talked about every election, and nothing happens. America's young folks will volunteer for national service when it means four weeks in Cancun, and not before.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 11:45AM|#
I really like the wording of the Thirteenth. They really leave
no wriggle room at all, even for states as separate
sovereigns.
Now if you could just get judges to take seriously the definition
of "involuntary servitude"...
Naga Sadow|7.23.08 @ 11:46AM|#
I LOVE NewSpeak! Does anyone know how to translate "Mandatory Volunteerism" into real NewSpeak?
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 11:51AM|#
I LOVE NewSpeak! Does anyone know how to translate
"Mandatory Volunteerism" into real NewSpeak?
Seems fine as is. "Encouraged Duties" would also serve.
Brock|7.23.08 @ 11:55AM|#
The Time article linked from their site as "the case for
national service" (after taking a quick jab at libertarians) is
quick to point out that the problem with the current high levels of
volunteerism is that it is too voluntary - it's not directed and
coordinated.
Which, explains the jab at libertarians.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 11:59AM|#
Translation of older conscription fans:
"Well, these punk kids just sit around having sex and drinking; we
should put that energy to good use supporting a cause I like. The
fact that I am too old to be affected by this, that it's a form of
slavery, and that when I was kid, if they had suggested this I
would have opposed it is irrelevant. Besides, some of them are on
my lawn."
|7.23.08 @ 12:04PM|#
"Well, in those days, it was just something you did. I mean, I originally joined the Obama Youth Corps to meet girls. There was some serious pent-up yearning in some of those chicks. I liked to tell myself I was performing my own particular brand of "national service" if you know what I mean. But then the weirdos took over. You know, the believers- they had that look in their eyes. But it was fun for a while."
|7.23.08 @ 12:05PM|#
From the Time article:
You have millions of Americans who are yearning to be more involved in the world and in their communities.
And what? They're being held back from doing this by the nefarious
lovers of liberty? For fuck's sake, if they really, really wanted
to be involved, THEY'D BE INVOLVED!
Another good reminder as to why I don't waste my time with
Time.
|7.23.08 @ 12:14PM|#
What I find striking about this crap (besides, of course, the
patriotic slavery of it all) is that of course it won't work and
will make volunteer organizations worse off.
Why? The same reason that "conservatives" have a better record of
donating to charities than "liberals." If we make the government
responsible for organizing and assigning "volunteer" work, then
people will assume that it's the government's job to make sure this
all gets handled. And therefore, once they've put in their "time,"
they likely will be less involved in volunteer work in the future.
After all, the government's got it taken care of, right? They've
got all these kids, what do they need me for?
Volunteer involvement will end up going down.
thoreau|7.23.08 @ 12:17PM|#
I agree with Alan Vannemann. This gets talked about every now
and then, and while the occasional public school may do it there's
no way it will go to any large scale as any sort of post high
school corps.
Not saying anybody should support it, just saying that nobody
should hold their breath waiting for it to happen.
|7.23.08 @ 12:17PM|#
A great constitutional scholar named Dr. Edwin Vieira has proposed a similar thing to mandatory service. His plan is to reinstate "The Militia of Several States". Whereby all men(and women) 16-60 are part of the militia. This does two things. One, it is a separate entity under constitutional law which "We The People" are engaged(and heavily fucking armed) to deal with all tyrants foreign and domestic. Talk about corruption control!! Second this lays to rest any and all arguments towards the second amendment being for the militia. Yes let's reinstate that said militia since, it is, the ONLY thing written in the constitution that is deemed NECCESARY to the survival of a free state. Come on McPain and O-duddo, let's see you support THAT!
Abdul|7.23.08 @ 12:27PM|#
Scott,
You're on to something about how this will degrade the
organizations it's purported to help. If every American is forced
to do community service, the quality of that service will be pretty
poor. The people in today's volunteer military are far superior to
their counterparts who were conscripted in the 70's because today's
soldiers want to be soldiers.
I know someone who manages a public housing facility for the
elderly. The county routinely sends her juveniles who've been
convicted of crimes and sentenced to "community service." Usually,
there's not enough work to keep the young potheads and shoplifters
busy, so the staff either lies about how many hours the youth
worked to get them out of there, or the kids end up grumpily and
half-heartedly painting a freshly painted wall while looking for
things to pilfer.
|7.23.08 @ 12:33PM|#
Scott at 12:14 and robc's first post -
This has always been my beef with the logic of those who would
force "virtue" upon us. If people are forced to do something that
we would consider virtuous, is it still virtuous? And additionally
mandatory service could actually serve to make people resentful of
those they are serving more than it makes them virtuous.
MP @ 12:05
I hear this logic all the time when referring to fuel efficient
cars and such.
Them: "There should be a government incentive to buy hybrids"
Me: "Why?"
Them: "Because they save people money on gas costs, and it's more
economic than buying a gas guzzler"
Me: "so... why do they need a government incentive?"
|7.23.08 @ 12:34PM|#
Nice to see that even Hope 'n' Change's supporters around here
don't take what he says seriously.
I hope you all are right, and that Mr. New Kind of Politics is just
blowin' that old-time smoke.
|7.23.08 @ 12:35PM|#
If people are forced to do something that we would consider
virtuous, is it still virtuous?
No, because virtue, like morality, arises from the exercise of free
will.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 12:38PM|#
Nice to see that even Hope 'n' Change's supporters around
here don't take what he says seriously.
Well, anything too egregious along these lines would either be
de-funded or tossed on Thirteenth amendment grounds. I wouldn't cry
all that hard if a kid while growing up was forced to *gasp*
interact with people outside his/her comfort zone.
And don't make the mistake that Obama supporters around here
support him because of the "Hope 'n Change" rhetoric (huh, reminds
me of a System of a Down song...). I certainly have other
reasons.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 12:42PM|#
No, because virtue, like morality, arises from the exercise
of free will.
True, but children do not come pre-built with the moral knowledge
to exercise vital powers along lines of excellence. They need to
learn the requisite skills and the available scope, and above all
the habit of doing that which is felicitous to track those lines of
excellence.
To wit, free will is the beginning of morality; self-mastery is the
end.
Teaching children is a very different exercise than governing
adults.
Alan Vanneman|7.23.08 @ 12:42PM|#
Actually, a friend of mine volunteered for something like this back in the sixties, pulling out poison ivy in a national park in Colorado somewhere. He said that at night they would sit around a campfire, drinking wine, smoking pot, and singing dirty songs. When they were all suitably wasted, they'd crawl into their sleeping bags and screw all night. So maybe some kids would be up for this after all. Hey, this is certainly how I want to spend my taxes!
|7.23.08 @ 12:50PM|#
What is the problem with national service. After all, we only
exist for the state. That's why we have a War on Drugs
Sanity (you won't be productive if your stoned),
anti-cigarette crusades (you'll cost the government money if you
get cancer), seat belt laws for supposedely free adults (money
again). That's why we use eminent domain to seize property that
coud be put to "better" use. It all comes down to what is best for
the state and you're selfish, subversive, individualist desires are
counterproductive to all of that.
Might as well stop fucking around with the language and just bring
back the draft.
If i were a parent and the public school system required civic
service, euphemistically called volunteer work, for a diploma, my
children would get their diploma somewhere else.
|7.23.08 @ 12:52PM|#
Re: Elemenope's comments:
Well, anything too egregious along these lines would either be de-funded or tossed on Thirteenth amendment grounds.
Funny how that never happened with conscription.
... children do not come pre-built with the moral knowledge to exercise vital powers along lines of excellence. They need to learn the requisite skills and the available scope, and above all the habit of doing that which is felicitous to track those lines of excellence.
All the more reason to make sure that they don't learn those habits
from the frelling government. This is the duty of their parents,
who should not be foisting it off on their (often childless)
neighbors.
Kevin
|7.23.08 @ 12:59PM|#
LMNOP -
Are college graduates "adults" or "children"? Because I could swear
I hear Obama talking about service related to receiving student
loans.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 1:01PM|#
Funny how that never happened with conscription.
Yeah, there's that. Never said it would be foolproof. However, if
it does become *that* unpopular, de-funding a national service
project is waaaaaaaaay easier than de-funding a war or the
conscription for one.
All the more reason to make sure that they don't learn those
habits from the frelling government. This is the duty of their
parents, who should not be foisting it off on their (often
childless) neighbors.
And so...if the parent is unwilling or incapable of teaching such
lessons, then what? Is the child condemned to be just another
sociopath, or could it be *possible* that someone could be made
available that does have the requisite knowledge, skills, time, and
patience?
If you haven't guessed, childhood and child-rearing is where I
believe Libertarianism fails most spectacularly as a coherent and
productive ideology.
|7.23.08 @ 1:05PM|#
If you haven't guessed, childhood and child-rearing is where
I believe Libertarianism fails most spectacularly as a coherent and
productive ideology.
You remember how a lot of us thought you were a woman? I wonder why
that was... ;)
|7.23.08 @ 1:21PM|#
Is the child condemned to be just another sociopath, or could it be *possible* that someone could be made available that does have the requisite knowledge, skills, time, and patience? -LMNOP
Oh, that's cute. Because some parents wouldn't teach their
kids how to behave, the state is to impose its will on all
children? I guess that attitude shouldn't surprise, seeing as how
it is pretty much the motivation behind the government's
near-monopoly on schooling. We all know how well the publik skoolz
turn out citizens.
Kevin
Are you in the tank for BHO? F|7.23.08 @ 1:25PM|#
It's been over two weeks since some other commenter linked about a related BHO plan and asked why Reason hadn't covered that plan. That caused me to write about that plan. This is the first Reason post I've seen since then that has approached that plan, but even so they still don't want to mention the plan for some reason.
Are you as full of shit as Lon|7.23.08 @ 1:36PM|#
It's been years since commenters first began to point out how full of shit Lonewacko was, but he still hasn't fessed up to his full-of-shittiness. Many Reason commenters make explicit reference to his full-of-shittiness, but he still doesn't want to acknowledge it for some reason.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 1:44PM|#
kevrob --
I particularly love how you lept from "he's criticizing
libertarianism" to "he wants the state to train our
children!!!"
I said it was a problem; I did not indicate how I thought it should
be solved.
Pointedly, I said "could it be *possible* that someone could be
made available that does have the requisite knowledge, skills,
time, and patience?"
Does the above describe many of the public school educators you
know? I didn't think so.
You remember how a lot of us thought you were a woman? I wonder
why that was... ;)
LOL.
Are college graduates "adults" or "children"? Because I could
swear I hear Obama talking about service related to receiving
student loans.
In that case it wouldn't be "involuntary servitude", but rather
"compensated volunteerism". Am I wrong? You ask the government for
money, and in return for giving it to you, they ask for a
service.
|7.23.08 @ 1:51PM|#
If you're feeling a strange lack of outrage after reading this
Radley Balko article, I think this
unrelated link might cure it. Sorry about that.
There are some classic quotes from the police chief there, though.
My favorite:
He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever.
|7.23.08 @ 2:22PM|#
In that case it wouldn't be "involuntary servitude", but
rather "compensated volunteerism". Am I wrong? You ask the
government for money, and in return for giving it to you, they ask
for a service.
Don't get me wrong - I don't like the feds subsidizing colleges and
simultaneously somehow making college consequently more expensive -
but I think that if you're going to promote incredible
inefficiencies by reinforcing a system where people need to go to
college before they'll be hired to sell greeting cards that you
shouldn't then take the individual that you've just saddled a bunch
of debt on and say "ok, now pay up"
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 2:24PM|#
Thanks, Shawn.
Was it just me, or were the info links after each paragraph
somewhat disturbing? ---
"Video: Watch coroner describe how cop might've Tasered a dead man
»"
"Video: Watch racism charges fly after Taser death »"
"Link: See how Tasers work »"
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Don't get me wrong - I don't like the feds subsidizing
colleges and simultaneously somehow making college consequently
more expensive - but I think that if you're going to promote
incredible inefficiencies by reinforcing a system where people need
to go to college before they'll be hired to sell greeting cards
that you shouldn't then take the individual that you've just
saddled a bunch of debt on and say "ok, now pay up"
What would be ideal (if one is already resigned to subsidized loans
for education) would be if the program was a voluntary option in
exchange for lowering (or zeroing) the interest rate on outstanding
gov't-issued student loans.
The way those charges add up, a hundred hours of community service
or so would be more than adequately compensated for.
|7.23.08 @ 2:42PM|#
The way those charges add up, a hundred hours of community
service or so would be more than adequately compensated
for.
All of this is just trying to find alternative ways to compensate
folks for services they would not otherwise provide. There is this
really old, but tried and true system I like to call "paying people
to do a job". Adding a bunch of bureaucrats into the process is not
going to be more efficient than just hiring people.
You want trees planted, students tutored, addicts counseled, or
trash picked up, laundering the payment prcess through the student
loan guarantee/interest rates process with the attendant
bureaucracy is not an economical way to do it.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 2:49PM|#
You want trees planted, students tutored, addicts counseled,
or trash picked up, laundering the payment process through the
student loan guarantee/interest rates process with the attendant
bureaucracy is not an economical way to do it.
You're probably right about that. However, since the market
notoriously undervalues labor in these areas, laundering may be the
only way to do it.
Besides, it is a bit different; the neat thing about community
service is that all those pesky (and usually overstated and
irrelevant) blocks to doing the work, like certification in XYZ or
attending such-and-such school for X number of years, do not apply.
"Free" help (even if it is subsidized) is less likely to be turned
away for bullshit reasons.
Invisible Finger|7.23.08 @ 3:29PM|#
I dunno. "Obama Youth" has a nice ring to it.
Or two nice rings to it. Around your wrists.
Invisible Finger|7.23.08 @ 3:37PM|#
Let's assume this isn't national defense service.
If the service consisted of bringing meals to senior citizens or
cleaning carrion from the swamps of protected wetlands (and there's
no reason we couldn't combine the two), there would not be violent
protest against it. But you know the "service" is going to consist
of filling potholes on the interstate and unclogging toilets at the
courthouse.
niki|7.23.08 @ 3:38PM|#
America has a national service program funded by the CNS. Each
year hundreds of citizens enlist in service corps,
AmeriCorps.
We have uniforms or a dress code, depending on what kind of term
you serve. At the end of the year, the government provides each
member with an educational grant-- money that must be used for
education. It can be used to pay back loans, gain credit for loans
or for non-traditional schooling (such as outdoor education
instructor certification hours). As the program is now, you choose
to join.
I'm not entirely sure this is a giant leap from individuals who
enlist to get money for college and few seem to comment on that
phenomenon. I'd rather serve my country peacefully than by carrying
a gun. You serve your country, you get money for something you
want. This sounds to me like being paid at the end, rather than
"involuntary servitude."
And I don't think service is a bad lesson for anyone to learn.
Actually, I think an appreciation of public service would benefit
everyone. Are high school students above serving their country?
Invisible Finger|7.23.08 @ 3:49PM|#
You serve your country, you get money for something you
want. This sounds to me like being paid at the end, rather than
"involuntary servitude."
Except that a real job pays better, so you can get MORE of what you
want.
Or you can join AmeriCorpse and get paid less. Unless what you want
is a feeling of moral superiority.
matt|7.23.08 @ 3:58PM|#
re: "trees planted, students tutored, addicts counseled, or
trash picked up"
However, since the market notoriously undervalues labor in these
areas, laundering may be the only way to do it.
Undervalued? Many people can perform those jobs. They're not
particularly difficult to obtain, nor do they require unique
talents or a significant amount of training. How would you suggest
that they be valued?
|7.23.08 @ 4:01PM|#
If you haven't guessed, childhood and child-rearing is where
I believe Libertarianism fails most spectacularly as a coherent and
productive ideology.
Libertarianism isn't intended to address every aspect of human
endeavor, just the basic political ones. Beyond respecting the
right of children to life and bodily integrity, you have to go on
the assumption that parents want what's best for their
children...just like we assume that all individuals want what's
best for themselves.
|7.23.08 @ 4:18PM|#
Also, libertarianism doesn't rule out communities. What's to say that people wouldn't choose to live in housing developments that are very similar to the communities they live in now by way of paying "property taxes" to pay for "public schools." It would just be something that was entered into contractually, and you'd probably find a lot of single people declining to live in these communities unless there was some other benefit to it.
nicole|7.23.08 @ 4:25PM|#
This sounds to me like being paid at the end, rather than
"involuntary servitude."
Yeah, because you chose to sign up for the program. Would you be
willing to call it involuntary if you were required by law to do
it, or would it still be voluntary because you might be compensated
at below-market rates?
Sorry, I think it would be way more educational for high school
kids to get a job that someone actually wants done (i.e., is
willing to pay for) than to perpetuate the idea that there is
something wrong with working for money.
And I don't know why anyone is talking about high school kids here
anyway. Some public and private schools require stuff like this
now, but the proposal Balko is describing is for young adults, and
at least one proposal would affect adults 18-42. Do you think it's
somehow cool for everyone in their twenties to drop their lives and
careers and waste two years on this crap?
Rhywun|7.23.08 @ 5:46PM|#
As the program is now, you choose to join.
And that's the way it should be. Some people "care"; some people
don't. It's ridiculous to ignore human nature and pretend that
everyone must "care".
Kolohe|7.23.08 @ 7:30PM|#
If people are forced to do something that we would consider
virtuous, is it still virtuous?
Exactly. I'm pretty sure the original 'call to service' liberal,
Jesus, taught that the answer to this question is 'no.'
|7.23.08 @ 8:38PM|#
Get it straight. He didn't talk about a "national service
bureaucracy."
He said: "We've got to have a civilian national security force
that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."
NJ|7.24.08 @ 3:00PM|#
The problem with Volokh's article is that Service Nation has
nothing to do with Rangel or his National Service act aside from
using the same term. The campaign's focus is to expand volunteer
programs like Americorps and Peace Corps, and promote volunteerism
in the country.
Their website even states in response to Volokh that they do not
support mandatory national service.
Henri|8.1.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Let me start by thank you for bringing attention to
ServiceNation. Granted it's not the kind of attention we wanted.
Let me clear up a couple of things for you.
1. We do NOT in any way, shape or form support mandatory
service.
2. We are NOT in any way affiliated with Rep. Rangel's bill.
3. By National Service, we mean national service programs, such as
Teach fro America, AmeriCorps and Peace Corps
4. Organization that join our coalition support our agenda as it
relations to national service programs. That however does not mean
that we support their agenda nor the method by which they achieve
their agenda.
If you have any more questions about serviceNation, please do not
hesitate to contact me henri@bethechangeinc.org and also visit our
blog at http://www.changewireblog.org to learn more about us.
|8.6.08 @ 10:32AM|#
Henri's canned response is questionable at best...
http://blogofbile.com/2008/07/31/service-nation-sponsors-and-supporters-and-additional-information/#more-1398
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment
for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall
exist within the United States, or any place subject to their
jurisdiction."
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