Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
News From Chesapeake
Interesting timing for this announcement:
Chesapeake will hire an independent consultant to review the police department's procedures, policies and staffing levels, City Manager William Harrell announced at a Tuesday morning press conference.
Harrell's decision comes less than two weeks after Chesapeake Detective Jarrod Shivers was shot and killed while serving a search warrant on a home in the Portlock section of the city.
Seems like at least some officials in Chesapeake aren't happy with police procedures.
Related: One of Shivers' colleagues recently told the Virginian-Pilot that if they were to conduct the raid again tomorrow, they'd do it "the exact same way." I suppose he was driven to say that in part by feelings of defiance in the wake of his friend's death. There's also the matter of liability. Admitting police error could both hurt the criminal case against Frederick and could put the department and individual officers at risk should Det. Shivers' family decide to sue.
But damn. You just conducted a raid that ended with a dead cop and a man with no prior record sitting in jail on murder-one charges. You've got a life ended, a life ruined, and two families in mourning. All the raid turned up is what I think we can now safely say was no more than a user's amount of marijuana. The vast marijuana grow operation described in the search warrant is nowhere to be found. And you wouldn't do anything differently?
GILMORE|1.29.08 @ 2:05PM|#
"Criminal shoots cop doing his job."
Thats probably the only level at which this story resonates with
most people.
So what if it was "a little" weed. Weed is crime! Cop stops crimes!
Cop risks life to protect you and me from... people who do crimes,
like having weed! Cop gets killed by crime person. Criminal will
now get executed and nature is again in balance. End of
story.
What I dont get, personally, is that they knew that their informant
had broken into the guys house a week before, then went ahead and
did a no-knock raid anyway? Isnt that like, incredibly fucking
stupid? Why not just ring the door during dinner and show him the
warrant, nice and polite like? Or is it these guys just cant help
but want to smash people's doors down for the hell of it?
Dog bites man|1.29.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Chesapeake will hire an independent consultant to review the
police department's procedures, policies and staffing
levels
Expect the review to conclude that police are in danger and prone
to error because of understaffing.
|1.29.08 @ 2:23PM|#
"the exact same way."
And get the exact same result.
Are these fucking cops capable -- at all -- of thought? Of
reflection? Of learning?
Jesus, I'm going to start drinking again, even though I haven't had
a drop in three years.
|1.29.08 @ 2:25PM|#
It's things like this that make me really excited to go on my February vacation :)
|1.29.08 @ 2:25PM|#
Officers trying to serve a narcotics search warrant at the
house executed a "well-thought-out operation," ... said police
Detective J. Duncan.
I beg to differ.
|1.29.08 @ 2:27PM|#
I mentioned this whole scenario to a friend, an independent
voter who is your average "cops do good things, the drug war is
bad, but..." kind of guy. He said he read recently that cops do
these 4am surprises because it makes it less likely the suspect
will respond coherently. I countered by saying I'd rather calmly
pick the guy up as he went out to get his mail where he is not
likely to carry a gun and he said, "you don't know who else might
be in the house."
Who cares who is in the house? If you have the manpower you have
one or two guys walk the guy back to his house to serve the warrant
and investigate, you ask him if anyone else is around and if so, do
they have weapons or access to them, etc. The other cops can
surround the house. If they are flushing the drugs, maybe that's an
issue, but I'd rather everyone live. That's just me. This regular
guy friend of mine is the mentality of most people. If the cops say
it is the best way, it must be, no matter how safe and positive any
other scenario you mention might be. "They study these things. We
don't." Ugh.
Kolohe|1.29.08 @ 2:33PM|#
Chesapeake will hire an independent consultant to review the
police department's procedures, policies and staffing levels, City
Manager William Harrell announced at a Tuesday morning press
conference.
Overall, this is a good thing. Whenever a distaster happens, like
Titanic, Thresher, Challenger, a complete review of all the
processess and procedures have lead to significant improvements -
even the identification of stuff that no one thought a problem.
However, these days we have very few Richard Feymans anymore to cut
through the politicization with which these things get
encumbered..
Dog bites man|1.29.08 @ 2:42PM|#
If you have the manpower
Well there you go. It's a manpower shortage. To stakeout the house
until the guy comes out requires more man-hours. A SWAT raid is
over and done with in a matter of minutes.
|1.29.08 @ 2:52PM|#
"Chesapeake will hire an independent consultant to review
the police department's procedures, policies and staffing
level."
The consultant will conclude;
4:00 am raids should be moved to 3:00 am
Slightly more force should be used on the battering ram and the ram
should have a sound-dampening material so as to not wake up the
occupants / evil druggies.
Body armor should be better.
Contents of the house should be thrown into the street to make a
better show.
More flash bang grenades and they should be thrown immediately
after saying "police" in a polite and non-threatening voice.
That should fix it. /snark
Sulla|1.29.08 @ 2:54PM|#
I am quite cynical by nature (I prefer to think of myself as
skeptical, but whatever), so anytime people start talking about how
we just need to get more information out there and educate those
around us, I tend to think of it as well-meaning but ultimately
useless. However, my dad was visiting me last weekend and it got me
thinking. My brother the anarchist has been arguing with him about
the war on drugs and how useless it was. After I told him about
this story, he (evangelical/ fundamentalist, drugs-bad,
reagan-loving republican) allowed that for some drugs, particuarly
marijuana, the benefits just don't seem to justify the costs. I was
pretty impressed with that first step.
(Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go read about the
Isreali-Palestian conflict before I start singing Kumbayah)
|1.29.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Sulla, good for you! It's all about education. It also helps
that our economy is going sideways. The war on some drugs is a rich
man's hobby.
How long will the "drugs are bad, mkay" rhetoric continue to keep
the war on some drugs feasting at the government trough?
As long as voters let it continue.
How to fix the problem?
Let more people know about all the crap we talk about right here.
After all, we're all paying for this.
|1.29.08 @ 3:08PM|#
The only thing they would have done differently was kill the
home owner if given the chance.
Amazing when a life is worth less than a treat of flush the toilet.
To me this logic says it all. They claim the need for these type
raids because evidence can be flushed if you actually knock and
wait for someone to answer the door. So according to their own
logic their lives and the lives of others are less important than
making sure no one flushes a toilet. Very fitting that flushing
lives down the toilet is all they really seem to accomplish.
And sorry but I have no sorrow for anyone stupid enough to put
themselves in harms way to get a few doobies off the street. When
you go to do these things as a cop you are saying by your own
actions that your life is worth losing over the drugs.
No one forces anyone to do anything. If all the cops came together
and said we are not doing this anymore what could any of the higher
ups do about it exactly? Fire all the cops for failure to comply
with orders? I doubt it seriously.
|1.29.08 @ 3:10PM|#
zzm
You forgot the part about doing away with the announcement "Police"
altogether.
Aw, shucks. Just eliminate the Bill of Rights and be done with
it.
|1.29.08 @ 3:10PM|#
In case you forgot, this guy is a CRIMINAL. In case you didn't
know, Marijuana just so happens to be currently ILLEGAL, because it
is a dangerous, addictive drug. This was determined by Congress
years ago. I don't think children should be high on drugs, this is
why we need them illegal.
It is OK to use alcohol, but drugs are too addictive. I thinnk this
story lays to rest the myth that drugs don't cause violence.
The police have no idea if the guy has weapons or is on drugs, so
they are entirely justified in using overwhelming force. Also, what
if they politely knock and the evidence is flushed?
The guy needs prison for murder, before he fired the weapon, he
should have known who or what he was shooting. I think we need to
use tanks and other armor in these raids to be safer.
jimmydageek|1.29.08 @ 3:16PM|#
I think we need to use tanks and other armor in these raids to be safer.
I'm sure the cops would agree with you here. Tanks. Sad.
|1.29.08 @ 3:16PM|#
I feel like I am living in Nazi Germany and I can smell the burning flesh of my fellow citizens in the air.
DavidS|1.29.08 @ 3:17PM|#
I feel like I am living in Nazi Germany and I can smell the
burning flesh of my fellow citizens in the air.
O god. The world's gone batshit crazy.
|1.29.08 @ 3:27PM|#
This story wouldn't be about more than a routine SWAT drug raid
except:
The cops used uncorroborated, paid / compensated informant
information, instead of cooking up their own or actually
investigating the operation.
Found large grow op.
A cop got killed.
Predicted Chesapeake PD solution:
Contact Sheriff Victor Hill as consultant.
|1.29.08 @ 3:27PM|#
I meant if you already have the manpower for the raid, you have
the manpower to surround the house for the serving of the warrant.
No need to stakeout, just circle the house while two guys in the
front ring the doorbell, and quietly announce. If the people in the
house suddenly start running around like chickens with their heads
cut off grabbing dope and heading for the bathroom, then you nab
'em.
Of course, it should be legal so this is all moot, but you get the
idea.
|1.29.08 @ 3:35PM|#
"""Here's to hoping Phil Stevens is just an exercise in
satire."""
Probably. Or one law for me another for thee. Phil acts like he has
a problem with people who violate the law, unless they are
cops.
|1.29.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Nick, you forget how sneaky people can be getting rid of dope
and crawling into their camoflaged hidey holes.
protectharrass and serve annoy
|1.29.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Did I miss the at the end of Phil Stevens comment.
So, by his logic (and his typing pattern) ANYTHING the government
BANS is therefore ILLEGAL and anyone who does/owns whatever it is,
is therefore a CRIMINAL.
Brilliant.
I truly believe some posters are regular posters' little brothers
that type contrarian garbage to angry up the blood.
|1.29.08 @ 3:44PM|#
There's suppossed to be a "/snark" in between "the" and "at" in
my first sentence.
(and a ? at the end for that matter... gotta start hitting
"preview" when my blood is all angered up).
Dammit.
|1.29.08 @ 3:49PM|#
"Chesapeake will hire an independent consultant to review
the police department's procedures, policies and staffing
level."
Actually, I think the recommendation will eventually be:
1. Sneak up quietly and gas the house. If the inhabitants die, are
innocent, or property is ruined, well, that's just the price we pay
to ensure officer safety and to make it slightly more inconvenient
and expensive for our kids (and cancer patients) to buy weed.
2. Fire a couple RPGs into the house until it collapses, then sift
the rubble for evidence. If innocents happen to die, they should
have thought of the dangers of living in a neighborhood full of
poor people. The survivors will be much better off in a world free
of hippies, skaters, and the aforementioned cancer patients.
(They're sooooo depressing anyway.)
|1.29.08 @ 3:59PM|#
So, by his logic (and his typing pattern) ANYTHING the
government BANS is therefore ILLEGAL and anyone who does/owns
whatever it is, is therefore a CRIMINAL.
True, the LAW is the LAW. It must be obeyed and enforced.
In case you happened to forget marijuana gets people high, anything
that can get people high can be abused and must be illegal to
protect society. I don't think people should drive, fly planes or
perform surgery stoned, and if drug is legal how can the cops
prevent that?
I don't want all the kids stoned, if it isn't illegal, there will
be crack vending machines in preschools.
Fire a couple RPGs into the house until it collapses, then sift
the rubble for evidence.
If they have good evidence that drugs may be present, the house
should be blown up. All wars involve some collateral damage.
I feel like I am living in Nazi Germany and I can smell the
burning flesh of my fellow citizens in the air.
The death penalty could be a useful tool in the war on drugs. If it
makes us all safer, I don't see the problem. If you obey ALL laws
you will have no problem.
|1.29.08 @ 4:04PM|#
Cfisher, you bring up a good point. We ALL (joe included) know how much hippies stink and just plain suck all kinds of ass, but sometimes its easy to forget about them punk cancer patients that can't hack a little bit of death and suffering without feeling the need to medicate. And the poor - don't even get me started on all those poor people who don't even have the common courtesy to display a little wealth once in a while. RPGs are too good for em.
|1.29.08 @ 4:06PM|#
Cesar had it right.
As Alexander Hamilton (by no means a limited government guy)
explained in Federalist No. 74, justifying the pardon power: "The
criminal code of every country partakes so much of necessary
severity, that without an easy access to exceptions in favor of
unfortunate guilt, justice would wear a countenance too sanguinary
and cruel."
|1.29.08 @ 4:07PM|#
Yeah, zig zag, I know I'm a huge pushover. I just assumed flushing the drugs is what the cops would want anyway. They wouldn't want to take all that pot back to the station and lose some of it along the way. Nah, they'd never do that.
|1.29.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Hey, Phil reminded me of something I've been wondering for a
while now...does anyone know the number of laws the average person
has to obey? I know it would differ by state, but in general...are
there a million laws that might apply to me?
Basically, I've come to the conclusion that ignorance of the law
*is* an excuse. Oh, you'll be punished if you get caught breaking
one, no doubt, but for anyone to claim they know and obey every
single law that applies to them...I don't see it.
Nephilium|1.29.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Phil Stevens: Fear not valiant defender of the law! Some
friendly officers are coming over right now to
clear your house of anything that can get people high, or that can
be made into anything that can get people high. Please make sure
all white-out, gasoline, paint thinner, alcohol, permanent markers,
fruits, yeast, bread, sugar, soil, fertilizer, light bulbs, drugs
(OTC, prescription, or other), ammonia, bleach, electricity, and
high fructose corn syrup is in able to be found and easily
confiscated.
We'll make sure you're protected from your own base urges and
desires.
Just don't worry about those surgical shears... we'll need to take
your testicles so you can't get high on sex.
Nephilium
|1.29.08 @ 4:18PM|#
"They study these things. We don't." Ugh.
It never seems to register with these people that while they study
these things more they have less incentive to be unbiased.
Also, it's the kind of thing my grandparents would say. The AARP
crowd is not good for liberty.
|1.29.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Basically, I've come to the conclusion that ignorance of the
law *is* an excuse.
Practically speaking, yes, but legally it is not an excuse in a
court of law. You are theoretically required to know all laws as
they apply to you.
|1.29.08 @ 4:26PM|#
"""Practically speaking, yes, but legally it is not an excuse in
a court of law. You are theoretically required to know all laws as
they apply to you."""
Doesn't that apply to the cops too? Also are they not required to
follow their internal rules and procedures? What should the penalty
for that?
LibertyPlease|1.29.08 @ 4:28PM|#
Phil reminded me of something I've been wondering for a while now...does anyone know the number of laws the average person has to obey? I know it would differ by state, but in general...are there a million laws that might apply to me?
"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the
property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under
arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the
people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience." ~
John Locke
I think awareness of all these laws is the
justification to ignore them. I no longer correlate "illegal" to
"wrong," the laws are no longer relevant.
|1.29.08 @ 4:28PM|#
"""In case you happened to forget marijuana gets people high,
anything that can get people high can be abused and must be illegal
to protect society. """"
Some would claim that there is no greater high than love or
God.
Dog bites man|1.29.08 @ 4:32PM|#
say what you want about Phil Stevens, but his was the exact same
counter-argument made in the late 70's when pot was a hair away
from being decriminalized.
We know which side won.
You might beat emotional appeals with reason, but that's generally
not the course of history. The occasional defeat of flat- earthers
are the exception, and don't really advance interpersonal relations
all that much anyway.
|1.29.08 @ 4:36PM|#
you wouldn't do anything differently?
Well, we might have tossed in a few incendiary
flash-bang devices.
|1.29.08 @ 4:37PM|#
Two raids based on the same BS informant tip:
Cops shoots innocent guy: he deserved it for x and y reasons, and
no, we will not investigate anything.
Innocent guy shoots cop: Let's review our policies and staffing
levels.
|1.29.08 @ 4:52PM|#
Also, what if they politely knock and the evidence is
flushed?
Maybe, just maybe, they could shut off the water with that valve by
the curb.
LibertyPlease|1.29.08 @ 4:55PM|#
Maybe, just maybe, they could shut off the water with that valve by the curb.
There is still a reservoir on the back of the toilet capable of a
flush....
|1.29.08 @ 4:59PM|#
Officers trying to serve a narcotics search warrant at the
house executed a "well-thought-out operation,"
Nothing says "well-thought out operation" like somebody dead over a
few joints.
|1.29.08 @ 5:20PM|#
There is still a reservoir on the back of the toilet capable of a flush....
Even if he did have the kind of marijuana grow operation they said
he did... you can't flush plants down the toilet. You could maybe
see that kind of argument for small-scale cocaine dealers, but
certainly not for people growing marijuana.
CFroh|1.29.08 @ 5:29PM|#
Radley, this Chesapeake fiasco "hits home," since I'm from
Suffolk, Virginia, the city just to the West of Chesapeake. I could
know some of the people involved, or know someone who knows them.
This creepy feeling about my home reflects my feeling at
discovering the "racism" in the best seller, "Color of Water," took
place in Suffolk. Growing up there, I have nothing but idyllic
thoughts about my home. Your story reminds me that Big Government
will let no part of Earth in peace - there's no where to hide. God
help the man in prison; instead, he should be given due respect for
defending his castle from invasion. And the cops - those poor
bastards - deranged to actually believe in this malevolent Drug
War. God help us all.
P.S. Great work Radley also on the War on Pain Doctors and Pain
Patients. The Pain Relief Network, as you may know, is engaged as
we speak in Kansas, defending Dr. Schneider in court and before the
State medical board, and is filing the big one - an injunction to
overturn the Controlled Substances Act. For more info, to to
www.PainReliefNetwork.org.
|1.29.08 @ 5:34PM|#
"God help the man in prison; instead, he should be given due
respect for defending his castle from invasion."
I would imagine that Mr. Frederick is held in pretty high regard
among his fellow prisoners. Not only did he defend himself, he is
guilty of no crime. I understand that there is a certain amount of
honor among prisoners, even the most hardened ones.
|1.29.08 @ 5:38PM|#
This is for all you "the law is the law" idiots. This is a mere
tautology. If is one of the most vapid statements in the world that
you can have without being completely meaningless.
The three laws of thought are, partly, premised on the law of
Identity, A=A. One would hope that the law is law and the law isn't
a fat pig policeman, or turnip. Otherwise, language would become
useless.
http://www.tompotter.us/exmid.html
ktc2|1.29.08 @ 6:15PM|#
Cesar,
We've petitioned the governor but he doesn't want to appear soft on
people who've been falsely imprisoned.
|1.29.08 @ 6:17PM|#
Troy
While I agree that "the LAW - no matter what it is - must be
enforced" is idiocy, what seems to be happening here and in the
other SWAT raids is that the police are placing themselves above
the law.
Whatever its flaws, "Government by Law" is superior to "L'Etat
c'est nous."
|1.29.08 @ 6:38PM|#
You mean cuz the second one is French?
It does have a certain "Je ne sais quois."
Scooby|1.29.08 @ 6:44PM|#
Any "evidence" that can be disposed of in a single hurried flush
(while yelling out "just a minute!") to the cops at the door is
penny-ante level.
If the drug warriors are that concerned about disposal of evidence
through the plumbing system, they can turn off the water and insert
a plug at the building sewer cleanout. That one flush worth of
evidence will be preserved in the sewer pipe.
Well, they can do that, or they can roll the dice and accept that
some of them may be killed when invading homes like common
criminals.
javier|1.29.08 @ 7:27PM|#
Sneak up quietly and gas the house. If the inhabitants die,
are innocent, or property is ruined, well, that's just the price we
pay to ensure officer safety and to make it slightly more
inconvenient and expensive for our kids (and cancer patients) to
buy weed.
reminds me of th citizens of salem. If they drowned, too bad. small
price to pay to make sure we don't have witches.
Mojotron|1.29.08 @ 7:54PM|#
Related: One of Shivers' colleagues recently told the
Virginian-Pilot that if they were to conduct the raid again
tomorrow, they'd do it "the exact same way."
Well, minus one thing.
|1.29.08 @ 9:43PM|#
"""Sneak up quietly and gas the house. If the inhabitants die,
are innocent,"""
Is Steve Martin doing the gassing?
|1.30.08 @ 2:55AM|#
Why are the police so surprised at the death of the officer? He
was engaging in a war on drugs when he was killed so this is more
like any other soldier who dies on the battlefield, and is also an
long overdue consequence of initiating hostilities against
others.
I only wish more police departments were dealt much more
significant losses in the future to the point that at least partial
restraint and some humility were restored. I have a dream...
|1.30.08 @ 2:20PM|#
He said he read recently that cops do these 4am surprises
because it makes it less likely the suspect will respond
coherently.
So your cop friend would agree that anyone who pulls out his piece
under those circs and starts spraying the intruders with hot lead
should automatically get off because they were too disoriented to
have mens rea?
|1.30.08 @ 2:21PM|#
I thinnk this story lays to rest the myth that drugs don't
cause violence.
Another marijuana-related death.
|1.30.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Fire a couple RPGs into the house until it collapses, then
sift the rubble for evidence. If innocents happen to die, they
should have thought of the dangers of living in a neighborhood full
of poor people.
There are precedents for such a strategy, if you change the
preferred means of bringing the building down from explosives to
fire: MOVE in Philadelphia and the Branch Dravidians outside of
Waco.
|1.30.08 @ 2:36PM|#
reminds me of th citizens of salem. If they drowned, too
bad. small price to pay to make sure we don't have
witches.
Trial by ordeal was not practiced at Salem. Everyone who died was
convicted after trial by jury, not trial by ordeal. Luckily, no one
today ever gets convicted by a jury on the basis of ridiculous
testimony.
(Everyone, of course, other than Giles Corey, who wasn't convicted,
but who died under the peine forte et dur, which was applied to try
to get him to plead so that a trial by jury could be held. But
because he wasn't convicted, at least his property wasn't
forfeited. Nowadays, we'd get around that legal obstacle by
entering a not guilty plea for him, then convicting him, executing
him, and confiscating his property, or perhaps we wouldn't even
bother waiting for a conviction, but would simply apply civil
forfeiture.)
ktc2|1.30.08 @ 6:52PM|#
Now how does this factor in to the equation?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326885,00.html
"Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets Convictions for Former
LA Cops"
ktc2|1.30.08 @ 6:55PM|#
So, now in light of that story, even if it is the cops busting down your door you still don't know if they are there to raid or rob.
|1.30.08 @ 9:11PM|#
Phil sez If they have good evidence that drugs may be
present, the house should be blown up. All wars involve some
collateral damage.
Sir, I knew Dan T., and you, you sir are an even better troll than
he.
Urkobold - you should be recruiting!
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245