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"Liberty" Flees Virginia
Less than a year ago, Virginia lawmakers admirably outlawed red light cameras in the state, citing--believe it or not--"liberty" as their reason.
How fleeting, this "liberty."
In just twelve months, the state did a complete about face, when, yesterday, the state senate gave its okay to traffic cameras. The bill had already passed the House of Delegates, source of the "liberty" holdup last year. After failing last year, it passed almost 2-1.
Governor Tim Kaine is expected to sign it.
|2.21.07 @ 2:59PM|#
So being allowed to drive through red lights is a form of
"liberty"?
Being fined, which is expensive and cumbersome to contest, by a
device that has known failings is not a form of "liberty".
If red light cameras even moderately affected safety in a positive,
one could think that they have at least some reasonable basis for
existing. But they don't. In fact, they have been shown to have a
negative effect on safety.
KoWT|2.21.07 @ 3:00PM|#
I don't have a problem with camera set ups like this
when you're in public, people can see you
ever been t-boned by a scofflaw who ran a red light?
if fear of the camera issuing an automatic ticket is going to make
people think twice before blowing through a red light?
so be it
just like I hope the gang bangers over north (minneapolis) are
thinking twice before firing a gun since the cops installed a
lightpole based system that report gunfire coordinates to
dispatchers
|2.21.07 @ 3:03PM|#
of course, i think these cameras are b.s. and unreliable and all
that.
i have to admit though, if i'm going to be ticketed, i'm starting
to like the idea of just having it mailed to my house rather than
sitting through the condescending bullying of a typical traffic
stop.
for all its faults, a camera can't be a jackass.
Dan T.|2.21.07 @ 3:04PM|#
If red light cameras even moderately affected safety in a
positive, one could think that they have at least some reasonable
basis for existing. But they don't. In fact, they have been shown
to have a negative effect on safety.
Not true, here's the FHWA report:
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pubs/05048/index.htm
|2.21.07 @ 3:11PM|#
KoWT, do you know how refreshing it is when you include a
question in your posts? Because then at least one of your sentences
actually ends with punctuation.
Your writing "style" is an affectation, and it's annoying.
|2.21.07 @ 3:23PM|#
I'd have less of a problem with the cameras if I could believe that they are about anything other than revenue generation. But the fact that rear-end accidents tend to increase where these cameras are installed makes it all but impossible to buy into the safety argument. So do the communities that have be caught shortening the yellow after cameras were installed.
|2.21.07 @ 3:25PM|#
The cameras are a barely tolerable nuisance IF there is a
reasonable procedure for challenging the ID of the driver, and IF
local yokel jurisdictions don't do bullshit stuff like reducing the
length of the yellow light in order to increase revenue.
BTW, the far worse measure under consideration in Virginia is the
one that yanks drivers' licenses for providing alcohol to minors,
even if said procurement had no relation to operation of a vehicle.
I can see a potential constitutional challenge there.
lunchstealer|2.21.07 @ 3:25PM|#
In fact, they have been shown to have a negative effect on
safety.
How so?
stephen the goldberger|2.21.07 @ 3:27PM|#
I don't understand. How is a camera any different than a police officer who issued tickets solely for everybody who violated red lights at a given intersection. Is hiring more police officers and making them give out ticekts for red lights a violation of the citizens' liberty? if not then why is having cameras on intersections one?
Illmatic|2.21.07 @ 3:29PM|#
Governor Kaine is a douchebag and a swine.
I hate the Virginia Republican Party for not finding a decent
candidate to oppose this statist, paternalist, busybody
ass-monkey.
On the bright side, Virginia has the verifiably awesome
rule that you can only have one term as governor.
It's the best rule ever. Turnover keeps our commonwealth
healthy.
Given its outsized powers, the American Presidency could be
positively improved via this useful reform.
Call, write, or waterboard your
Congressman and demand reform today!
|2.21.07 @ 3:36PM|#
How so?
I've seen information regarding how the increase in rear-end
crashes (caused by driver's being overly wary of getting a ticket)
offsets the decrease in t-bones.
However, according to the study linked
to by Dan T., the offset may be only partial. Money quote:
The combined results from the seven jurisdictions indicated a
positive aggregate economic benefit of approximately $39,000 per
site per year when property-damage-only (PDO) crashes are included
and $50,000 per site per year when PDO crashes are excluded (table
21). These results indicate that the increase in rear end crash
costs (due to the increase in frequency, with a lower severity) do
not negate the savings in right-angle crash costs.
Dan T.|2.21.07 @ 3:37PM|#
I'd have less of a problem with the cameras if I could
believe that they are about anything other than revenue generation.
But the fact that rear-end accidents tend to increase where these
cameras are installed makes it all but impossible to buy into the
safety argument.
The FHWA report I linked concludes that on the whole the reduction
in (much more serious)right-angle collisions makes up for the
increase in read-end collisions.
|2.21.07 @ 4:05PM|#
Hmmm, let me guess. Last year they were running for office and needed lots of votes. This year they need to raise money to pay off their major campaign contributers.
KoWT|2.21.07 @ 4:09PM|#
gimme a break
I'm almost 50 years old
a 10th grade drop out
(although I did later graduate from a prison's "higher education"
program--some 20 years ago)
now I'm gonna get run outta here by a punctuation nazis and some
punk who used my moniker to declare me a troll?
tell me about your love for freedom and liberty
but only in an abstract, fetish kinda way, right?
God forbid it bring the white trash to your sacred (virtual)
stomping grounds
would calling someone a slow witted navel gazer turned poo flinger
make me a troll?
somehow, I expected better from a libertarian blog
...
heh
j/k
I didn't really expect better
I'm just saying that to make the territorial shitbirds feel
crunchy
besides
what if I am a troll?
whatcha going to do?
call me names from a clownish hiding place?
damn my ignorant punctuation (because you magically know that I'm
faking it?)
seems kinda self defeating to me
trolls thrive on attention
better to ignore me and pray I lose interest
or
maybe
just maybe
you could address what I said, instead of pissing yourself over how
I said it
back to the topic at hand
I remember my grandfather telling about how, when traffic lights
first came out, some people were pissy about the idea of having to
obey a stupid light in the place of a flesh and blood cop
not much different from the reaction of some to today's cameras
|2.21.07 @ 4:23PM|#
In my town there are a couple of steep hills and lights around
blind corners. To warn oncoming traffic that the light is about to
change (very handy on icy roads) there are warning signs with
lights that begin flashing a number of seconds before the light
changes from green to yellow. The delay time is determined by
distance of sign from light and the speed limit.
If cities were truly worried about safety, they would incorporate
something like these signs, either with or without the cameras.
Just using cameras encourages the government to "tweak" the light
timing to gain revenue by causeing more people to run the light or
slam on the brakes to avoid doing so, thereby causing an accident.
Seems to me that this plan is the antithesis of a "safe" traffic
pattern.
|2.21.07 @ 4:24PM|#
Stephen the Goldberger-It's a question of due process. When a
cop pulls you over, it's a person with observational powers and
judgment who issues the ticket. With a camera, it's a machine.
Machines can't testify, they can't swear in court that you were the
one driving, and, more importantly, they have no knowledge of the
circumstances surrounding the incident.
In many cases, there is no affirmative defense to a camera-issued
ticket.
|2.21.07 @ 4:32PM|#
I also wonder about proportionality. I've been driving for about
18 years, and can count on one hand the number of times I've seen
someone run a red light.* I've been a volunteer on the local fire
department for a couple of years, and have been to a bunch of
wrecks. Several happened when people ran stop signs, but none
occurred at a lighted intersection.
Of course, that evidence is totally anecdotal, but I will point out
that I've lived, and driven, all over the country, in both urban
and rural settings. I'm also well aware that t-bone accidents of
the sort you see when someone runs a red light do happen, and are
ugly.
Still, I'm not sure that the response is proportional to the
problem. And that brings me back to the supposition that the
cameras are mostly about revenue.
* Oddly enough, the last time I saw someone run a red light was at
an intersection right in front of the local sheriff's office. If
nothing else, I'll give the guy points for chutzpah.
|2.21.07 @ 4:35PM|#
So being allowed to drive through red lights is a form of
"liberty"?
Uhh, yes.
The issue is avoiding collisions. With other cars, with people,
etc. Traffic lights are deemed necessary because many trolls don't
understand concepts of: wait your turn; yield when you do not have
right of way; be aware of your surroundings; do not
endanger others. Idiot lights are necessary.
|2.21.07 @ 4:44PM|#
Ironchef-That, and stop signs don't work well at multi-lane
intersections.
Roundabouts are an elegant solution, but seem to confuse a lot of
drivers.
|2.21.07 @ 5:28PM|#
I live in Virginia. I got caught in a "Liberty Trap" when they
were testing it a year or so ago. It was interesting how they
worded the summons. They basically said, "Pay the fine without
contesting it and we won't tell your insurance company. Contest it
and lose, and we will tell your insurance company."
I paid it.
Paul|2.21.07 @ 5:31PM|#
No, I didn't RTFA, but is there anything that this about-face by the Virgina legislature can be attributed to? Was there a big turnover in the legislature? Change of heart? New study was released? Governors daughter killed in a t-bone accident by a red-light-runner? What?
|2.21.07 @ 5:43PM|#
No, I didn't RTFA, but is there anything that this
about-face by the Virgina legislature can be attributed
to?
I didn't read it either, and I have no idea what the
inside-baseball of VA politics is, but I will bet hard cash that
the answer is:
greed and cowardice.
KoWT|2.21.07 @ 5:55PM|#
JMV,
who are you agreeing with?
I didn't deny the troll accusation
hearing voices are ya?
and I'm nuts?
|2.21.07 @ 6:34PM|#
if fear of the camera issuing an automatic ticket is going
to make people think twice before blowing through a red
light?
People should not blow through red lights!
If you're going to blow someone in a car, it should be done while
driving down a relatively straight interstate highway, doing at
least 65 miles per hour, in very light traffic.
Jerry|2.21.07 @ 7:44PM|#
There are a whole bunch of studies here:
http://www.motorists.org/issues/enforce/studies.html
|2.21.07 @ 7:58PM|#
A camera won't beat you up, haul you in or search your car. A state trooper on the other hand ...
|2.21.07 @ 8:00PM|#
No, I didn't RTFA, but is there anything that this
about-face by the Virgina legislature can be attributed
to?
The original pilot program for the cameras lapsed in 2005, and the
Republicans in the legislature showed a few brief moments of
gumption in opposing them. But the moment that the original program
lapsed, the Law Enforcement Industrial Complex put on a full-court
press to enact permanent legislation to permit the cameras. I
figured it was only a matter of time before they succeeded. Most
jurisdictions in Northern Virginia never bothered to take the
cameras down, as a matter of fact.
|2.21.07 @ 8:02PM|#
I think libertarians view these cameras as a slippery slope issue. Remember, the first surveillance cameras in the UK were on the roads, and now they've got them all over the damn place. Once the Law Enforcement Industrial Complex gets the "nose in the tent," it becomes tougher to oppose camera in other arenas.
poco|2.21.07 @ 10:03PM|#
trolls thrive on attention
better to ignore me and pray I lose interest
or
maybe
just maybe
you could address what I said, instead of pissing yourself over how I said it
back to the topic at hand
Timmo, KoWT's a poet and we didn't know it. Sort of in the "e.e.
cummings meets Allen Ginsberg" vein.
Seriously, KoWT, you're most welcome here, but it is difficult to
"address what I said, instead of pissing yourself over how I said
it" when what you said is hard to read. Using the shift and
punctuation keys, and not hitting a carriage return after every
clause, would make your words much easier to scan. You're used to
your method of transcription; we are not.
|2.21.07 @ 10:46PM|#
Liberty is off-topic posting
Liberty is trolling
Liberty is running redlights (safely)
Liberty is the Bible in my glovebox and the stash in my
armrest
Liberty is telling my neighbor what I really think
Liberty is my under-the-table job
Liberty is my bumper sticker
Liberty is the joke I told last week about the pope
Liberty is my recent and temporary eschewal of punctuation
miche|2.21.07 @ 11:03PM|#
To warn oncoming traffic that the light is about to change (very handy on icy roads) there are warning signs with lights that begin flashing a number of seconds before the light changes from green to yellow.
Many countries use this type of system. I have mostly seen it as
the traffic light flashing green before yellow, and flashing yellow
before red.
That, and stop signs don't work well at multi-lane intersections.
At night, many multi-lane intersection traffic lights flash red on
two directions and yellow on the other two. Seems to work.
I don't agree with red light cameras because the ticket goes to the
registered owner of the car instead of the person committing the
infraction.
KoWT|2.22.07 @ 12:24AM|#
poco,
"e.e. cummings meets Allen Ginsberg"
heh
I like that
what's w/ evil clowns in this forum posting defamatory nonsense
using other's monikers (the last KoWT post before this one wasn't
mine). Is this a standard operating proceedure hereabout? You know,
to make newbs feel "most welcome" or summat?
Nice touch.
I'm fairly used to being the LCD (lowest common denominator), but
even I can't go that low without feeling petty/cowardly.
If I promise to work on incorporating punctuation into my posts,
will the doppleganger let go of my pantleg? Please?
or at least use a moniker besides mine to ridicule me with?
Conceptual continuity and all that...
speaking of "conceptual continuity", here's a book plug from a
compulsive and ravenous reader:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300072538/reasonmagazineA/
good luck,and good night
Gilbert Martin|2.22.07 @ 8:17AM|#
The traffic light cameras are indeed all about raising
revenue.
If they really want to increase safety, then increase the duration
of yellow lights before the red light comes on.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they the yellow duration
is actually reduced at intersections with traffic light cameras in
order to "create" more violators and more revenue.
Rabbit Scribe|2.22.07 @ 8:56AM|#
Off-topic: I saw a guy run a red light at a very busy
interesection (Harlem & Irving, Chicago) and clip somebody
pretty good- tore off his rear bumper, in fact. He locked his
brakes and spun around a few times. The guy who got hit also spun
around from the impact. The offender immediately revved his engine
and took off at full speed in the direction he was pointed. The guy
who got hit crossing the intersection with the light...
immediately revved his engine and took off at full speed in the
direction he was pointed.
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my
monkey.
|2.22.07 @ 9:13AM|#
Congratulations to the Virginia legislature for doing the right
thing.
It was about time they get some return on the sizeable investment
of public money.
I have been wondering when all those new traffic lights one very
other intersection with all those new cameras on them would be put
to good use.
When you visit Frederick County (Winchester) and Clarke County you
will know what I mean.
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