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The El Paso Miracle
How can a comparatively poor, high-immigration town that sits across the border from super-violent Ciudad Juarez be one of the safest big cities in America?
By conventional wisdom, El Paso, Texas should be one of the scariest cities in America. In 2007, the city's poverty rate was a shade over 27 percent, more than twice the national average. Median household income was $35,600, well below the national average of $48,000. El Paso is three-quarters Hispanic, and more than a quarter of its residents are foreign-born. Given that it's nearly impossible for low-skilled immigrants to work in the United States legitimately, it's safe to say that a significant percentage of El Paso's foreign-born population is living here illegally.
El Paso also has some of the laxer gun control policies of any non-Texan big city in the country, mostly due to gun-friendly state law. And famously, El Paso sits just over the Rio Grande from one of the most violent cities in the western hemisphere, Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, home to a staggering 2,500 homicides in the last 18 months alone. A city of illegal immigrants with easy access to guns, just across the river from a metropolis ripped apart by brutal drug war violence. Should be a bloodbath, right?
Here's the surprise: There were just 18 murders in El Paso last year, in a city of 736,000 people. To compare, Baltimore, with 637,000 residents, had 234 killings. In fact, since the beginning of 2008, there were nearly as many El Pasoans murdered while visiting Juarez (20) than there were murdered in their home town (23).
El Paso is among the safest big cities in America. For the better part of the last decade, only Honolulu has had a lower violent crime rate (El Paso slipped to third last year, behind New York). Men's Health magazine recently ranked El Paso the second "happiest" city in America, right after Laredo, Texas—another border town, where the Hispanic population is approaching 95 percent.
So how has this city of poor immigrants become such an anomaly? Actually, it may not be an anomaly at all. Many criminologists say El Paso isn't safe despite its high proportion of immigrants, it's safe because of them.
"If you want to find a safe city, first determine the size of the immigrant population," says Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Massachusetts. "If the immigrant community represents a large proportion of the population, you're likely in one of the country's safer cities. San Diego, Laredo, El Paso—these cities are teeming with immigrants, and they're some of the safest places in the country."
If you regularly listen to talk radio, or get your crime news from anti-immigration pundits, all of this may come as a surprise. But it's not to many of those who study crime for a living. As the national immigration debate heated up in 2007, dozens of academics who specialize in the issue sent a letter (pdf) to then President George W. Bush and congressional leaders with the following point:
One of the signatories was Rubén G. Rumbaut, a sociologist who studies
immigration at the University of California, Irvine. Rumbaut
recently presented a paper on immigration and crime to a
Washington, D.C. conference sponsored by the Police Foundation.
Rumbaut writes via email, "The evidence points overwhelmingly to
the same conclusion: Rates of crime and conviction for undocumented
immigrants are far below those for the native born, and that is
especially the case for violent crimes, including murder."
Opponents of illegal immigration usually do little more than cite andecdotes attempting to link illegal
immigration to violent crime. When they do try to use statistics,
they come up short. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), for example, has perpetuated the popular myth that illegal immigrants
murder 12 Americans per day, and kill
another 13 by driving drunk. King says his figures come from a
Government Accountability Office study he requested, which found
that about 27 percent of inmates in the federal prison system are
non-citizens. Colorado Media Matters looked into King's claim, and
found his methodology lacking. King appears to have conjured his
talking point by simply multiplying the annual number of murders
and DWI fatalities in America by 27 percent. Of course, the GAO
report only looked at federal prisons, not the state prisons and
local jails where most convicted murderers and DWI offenders are
kept. The Bureau of Justice Statistics puts the number of
non-citizens (including legal immigrants) in state, local, and
federal prisons and jails at about 6.4 percent (pdf). Of
course, even that doesn't mean that non-citizens account for 6.4
percent of murders and DWI fatalities, only 6.4 percent of the
overall inmate population.
What's happening with Latinos is true of most immigrant groups
throughout U.S. history. "Overall, immigrants have a stake in this
country, and they recognize it," Northeastern University's Levin
says. "They're really an exceptional sort of American. They come
here having left their family and friends back home. They come at
some cost to themselves in terms of security and social
relationships. They are extremely success-oriented, and adjust very
well to the competitive circumstances in the United States."
Economists Kristin Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl argue that
the very process of migration tends to select for people with a low
potential for criminality.
Despite the high profile of polemicists such as Lou Dobbs and
Michael Savage, America has been mostly welcoming to this latest
immigration wave. You don't see "Latinos Need Not Apply" or "No
Mexicans" signs posted on public buildings the way you did with
the Italians and the Irish, two groups who actually were
disproportionately likely to turn to crime. The implication makes
sense: An immigrant group's propensity for criminality may be
partly determined by how they're received in their new
country.
"Look at Arab-Americans in the Midwest, especially in the Detroit
area," Levin says. "The U.S. and Canada have traditionally been
very willing to welcome and integrate them. They're a success story, with
high average incomes and very
little crime. That's not the case in Europe. Countries like France
and Germany are openly hostile to Arabs. They marginalize them. And
they've seen waves of crime and rioting."
El Paso may be a concentrated affirmation of that theory. In 2007
the Washington Post reported on city leaders'
wariness of anti-immigration policies coming out of Washington. The
city went to court (and lost) in an effort to prevent construction
of the border fence within its boundaries, and local officials have
resisted federal efforts to enlist local police for immigration
enforcement, arguing that it would make illegals less likely to
cooperate with police. "Most people in Washington really don't
understand life on the border," El Paso Mayor John Cook told the
Post. "They don't understand our philosophy here that the
border joins us together, it doesn't separate us."
Other mayors could learn something from Cook. El Paso's embrace of
its immigrants might be a big reason why the low-income border town
has remained one of the safest places in the country.
Radley Balko is a senior editor of Reason
magazine.
|7.6.09 @ 12:21PM|#
How can a comparatively poor, high-immigration town that
sits across the border from super-violent Ciudad Juarez be one of
the safest big cities in America?
Wizards.
$20ForHeadDontCum|7.6.09 @ 12:38PM|#
Cherry-picking data as usual. For every border city like El Paso
there is a border city like Detroit. We could go back and forth all
day.
Of course when Reason's overlords see their plans come to
fruition, EP and CJ will be combined into one giant metroplex
held in place
by multicultralism, and the differences in crime rate will wash
out.
Xeones|7.6.09 @ 12:40PM|#
For every border city like El Paso there is a border city
like Detroit.
Now you're racist against Canadians? Please reread my
initial comment, and think about it for a while.
bigot of a different sort|7.6.09 @ 12:41PM|#
For every border city like El Paso there is a border city
like Detroit.
You just can trust those fucking Canadians.
|7.6.09 @ 12:42PM|#
Zounds - way to hang the cape on the bull's horns, Radley. (As a matter of principle and incitement - especially incitement - all metaphors on this thread should have a Hispanic inflection.)
The Angry Optimist|7.6.09 @ 12:47PM|#
what's the deal with Chris Kelly's new moniker? Did a Latina hooker on Sunset Blvd rip you off, Chris?
24AheadDotCom|7.6.09 @ 12:50PM|#
Here's a tip for "$20ForHeadDontCum": get some legal advice. I
note also that a couple similar comments posted on other sites were
from IPs
based in Knoxville, including one apparently from the uni
there. Other similar comments seem to bear the hallmarks of "joe
from Lowell".
P.S. Anyone know who Craig Hood is, or know whether Allegro Medical
has multiple employees? Someone using one of that company's IPs
posted a smear about me a while back but he didn't return my
emails.
|7.6.09 @ 12:52PM|#
Got to be an L-Dub spoofer. The real LoneWacko would never link to Simpsons quotes.
The Angry Optimist|7.6.09 @ 12:56PM|#
Here's some actual "legal" advice for those of you
spoofing Lonewacko: it's totally legal.
And shut the fuck up, Chris Kelly.
$20ForHeadDontCum|7.6.09 @ 12:57PM|#
I warn you, 24AheadDotCom, I will not tolerate this spoofing. The real me would never be so foolish as to ask this crowd for help locating an enemy.
Naga Sadow|7.6.09 @ 12:59PM|#
Whoa! LoneWacko spoofers? Doing battle on the tubez?
INTERNETZ FLAME WARZ!!!!!!
Xeones|7.6.09 @ 1:00PM|#
Aha! Here comes tha rizzeal ChrisKelly, all making LegalThreats
up in this InterNet!
Please sue joe from Lowell, Chris. That would make my decade.
Naga Sadow|7.6.09 @ 1:02PM|#
I have here indisputable evidence that Chris Kelly aka "LoneWacko" aka "24ahead.com" is actually of Mexican descent! Link
Xeones|7.6.09 @ 1:02PM|#
The real LoneWacko would never link to Simpsons
quotes.
Yeah, but nobody in their right mind clicks LoneWacko's links
anyway. It was a cunning plan.
Xeones|7.6.09 @ 1:04PM|#
Naga, i should note that i didn't fall for it this time, lest you think your trap worked.
|7.6.09 @ 1:07PM|#
Xeones,
Hush up, or he's going to make your real name the #1 hit on the
Internet.
Which is odd considering that he can't do it for himself. In fact,
I couldn't find a mention of Kelly or Lonewacko in the first 100
results when I google "dumbass racist fuck."
|7.6.09 @ 1:17PM|#
Naga,
I'm keeping that Lonewacko free. He disgusts me, and you should
know how hard that is to do.
Paul|7.6.09 @ 1:36PM|#
Men's Health magazine recently ranked El Paso the second
"happiest" city in America,
Using what metric? I grew up near the El Paso area-- and I weren't
none too happy about it.
EoT|7.6.09 @ 1:42PM|#
Men's Health magazine recently ranked El Paso the second
"happiest" city in America,
Using what metric? I grew up near the El Paso area-- and I weren't
none too happy about it.
Latinos are happier on average than the rest of Americans,
especially Mexicans. Mexico usually rates higher than USA on
measures of subjective well-being. Its cultural.
</a|7.6.09 @ 1:48PM|#
Using what metric? I grew up near the El Paso area-- and I
weren't none too happy about it.
Look, finding the line of bullshit in a Reason article about
immigration is like find the words in an anagram puzzle in your
morning newspaper - you know it's in there, the only question is
whether you want to waste the time trying to find it.
Exactly what use are cosmotarians anyway? We already have two
parties givings us what we don't want and trying to tell us it's
freedom. You're redundant before you even get started.
|7.6.09 @ 1:49PM|#
I live in the Detroit area. It's true, the crime rate is pretty
bad. It is due neither to Mexican immigrants (of whom we have quite
a few, with great restaurants), nor to Canadians. It's not due to
Albanian, Iraqi or Hmong immigrants either (we've got lots of those
too).
It's due primarily to native Detroiters. So the comparison above is
quite irrelevant. Can't blame the immigrants, legal or illegal, for
Detroit's troubles.
|7.6.09 @ 1:54PM|#
I read an article years ago that attributed El Paso's
tranquility to some mineral ocurring naturally in the water supply
that mellowed everyone out.
As far as I know this theory is refuted by the stats for Juarez,
unless aquifers somehow know where national borders are.
Now if it were true think what a world it would be if we added the
mineral to water supplies in every city. I mean, after all, we add
fluoride for the children's teeth. (kidding)
Joe|7.6.09 @ 2:05PM|#
Perhaps before we jump to pro-imigrant conclusions we should
discuss the chemical content of the water in El Paso.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905404,00.html
|7.6.09 @ 2:05PM|#
Being poor is not the caused of violence.
That's not what those race baitors such as Jessi and Jackson say.
Just look Detroit or where most ghettos are.
Lax gun rules also help because people can defend themselves of
idiots. But liberal retards also say otherwise.
|7.6.09 @ 2:07PM|#
One thing about Mexicans, they work their arses off. I lived in
downtown Dallas for 4 years and now live in Oak Cliff (very Mexican
part of Dallas) and I've only been pan handled by a hispanics maybe
three times in all those years. Every Mexican/hispanic/latino(a)
I've ever known had a very strong work ethic, my newly-wed wife is
Mexican and her, and her family, all have been working since
legally possible.
(i'm a standard issue white guy so i'm not just singing the praise
of my race)
|7.6.09 @ 2:07PM|#
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, isn't it possible
that the crime rate is way low because illegals are afraid they'll
be deported if they're caught? And if that's the case, wouldn't lax
immigration laws (i.e. giving them legal status) actually INCREASE
crime there?
I'm guessing that's not actually the case. My first thought is that
El Paso has low crime rates because the Mexicans who hop the border
are 1.) better off economically; and 2.) likely moving to El Paso
to escape the violence of CJ. I was just hoping for a little more
substance out of the article than just "El Paso has low crime; El
Paso has lots of immigrants; q.e.d. immigrants are less likely to
commit crimes" and the contrarian in me feels compelled to point
out this alternate explanation.
Trombone|7.6.09 @ 2:10PM|#
So is this article saying that we should not grant illegal immigrants amnesty because it would raise crime in cities such as El Paso who have a high populaton of immigration?
|7.6.09 @ 2:11PM|#
Every Mexican/hispanic/latino(a) I've ever known had a very
strong work ethic, my newly-wed wife is Mexican and her, and her
family, all have been working since legally possible.
No disagreement here. As somebody who grew up in a largely-Hispanic
urban neighborhood, the problems I observed weren't the immigrants
but their first-generation American kids who weren't really
supervised precisely because their parents were out busting their
asses all day. Of course, that's not unique to immigrants (I
observed the same thing from upper-middle-class white kids when we
moved to the suburbs; the only difference was their parents had the
connections and money to bail out their asses when they got in
trouble).
Steve S|7.6.09 @ 2:15PM|#
This is a nice data point, however, I would like to see more
data. In general, is a high proportion of illegal immigrants in an
area correlated with violent crime? If there is a correlation,
which way does it run?
A further question: if some correlation is known, would that alter
anybody's view of immigration? Most libertarians I know are
open-borders people for deontological reasons, not utilitarian
reasons.
Ok, I've said my piece, now I am going to sit back and let the data
roll in.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|7.6.09 @ 2:33PM|#
I lived in Las Cruces for a piece. Folks are nice, food's good*,
and I like desserts so the climate suited me.
Anyway, the brown folks are likely to have deep roots there, while
the white folk are often newcomers to that part of the world. Even
on the US side of the border.
But there is damn all to do 'round there. I was poor and busting my
ass, so I never had time to go nuts about it, but all the
recreation to be had involved either hiking in the sun or getting
shitfaced. Often both.
As for culture: the occasional recital after a Masters Class at the
university's school of music were the only events that merited a
tie. Even a string tie.
It convinced me that I prefer to be withing striking distance of a
big city, even if I want to live with some space around me.
[*] You can order a canadian bacon, pineapple, and green chile
pizza. Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.
Zeb|7.6.09 @ 2:38PM|#
ClubMedSux,
I think that the fact that immigrants are less likely to commit
crimes was one of the bits of data used to support the conclusion
that El Paso is not an anomaly. It was not the conclusion of the
article.
|7.6.09 @ 2:38PM|#
Joe | July 6, 2009, 2:05pm | #
Perhaps before we jump to pro-imigrant conclusions we should discuss the chemical content of the water in El Paso.
So it is the water. Or, at least the lithium in the water. See my
post at 1:54pm.
Why do I have the impression that some people show up at H&R
and post without ever reading any of the previous comments?
NTTAWWT
|7.6.09 @ 2:40PM|#
Oh, I forgot thanks for the link to the Time article. I though
the one I'd seen was more rercent than 1971.
But since I couldn't even remember the chemical, who knows?
phalkor|7.6.09 @ 2:43PM|#
i'm a standard issue white guy so i'm not just singing the
praise of my race
Yeah? But isn't that mostly because you aren't allowed to do that?
White pride is considered by many to be terribly offensive.
first-generation American kids who weren't really
supervised
Damn teenagers! Where kids more supervised in the past?
Really?
One thing I agree with is that is incredibly stupid to ask El Paso
police to play immigration official. In places like Detroit and
Baltimore I doubt the ghetto-denizens believe the police are truly
out there to protect them. I'd be willing to bet there is a better
relationship in El Paso.
Also, off topic: is it really a felony to make homemade fireworks?
That seems a bit heavy-handed.
|7.6.09 @ 2:56PM|#
How would you explain Bakersfield CA? There are different social groups within the Mexican immigrants. I know some who embrace our system and strive to create a better life here. But too many are uneducated, live 2-3 families in filthy small houses, work under the table, as for native born, these women are baby factories on welfare, different men, and the babies are native born to grow up to be gangmembers. They learn quickly how to use the system and use a barter system. A prime example is the illegal, deals in drugs, makes money, is successful, converts to legal businessman using illegal money, gives back to Hispanics and becomes civic leader respected by all.
heart_naomi|7.6.09 @ 2:59PM|#
deals in drugs, makes money, is successful, converts to
legal businessman using illegal money, gives back to Hispanics and
becomes civic leader respected by all
you just described my ex-boyfriend's career path! except the "gives
back" part and he'll be shot before you could call him a "civic
leader". but hey! live the dream!
Brett Stevens|7.6.09 @ 3:00PM|#
Most of these high-immigrant cities are also stabilized by large
populations and relatively isolated, so there's no point to crime
-- you'd get caught right away.
Let's analyze the presence of illegal immigrants in the bigger
cities, like Houston and San Antonio, and see what the issue is
there.
Richard Hoste http://hbdbooks.|7.6.09 @ 3:19PM|#
Nice way to argue, Balko. Ignore Hispanics across the entire
country and focus on first generation immigrants in one city. Knock
down King's findings but ignore more concrete and reliable evidence
of Hispanic criminality. You don't even try to show that Hispanics
aren't significantly more criminal than whites.
Hispanics were
3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites, and twice as
likely to be in jail.(22) There were 267,000 criminal aliens in all
prisons and jails in 2003, about three quarters of whom were
Hispanic.(23) Three point nine percent of Hispanic men aged 25-29
are in prison or jail, vs. 1.7 percent of whites (11.9 percent of
black men of this age are incarcerated).(24)
Balko writes
"Look at Arab-Americans in the Midwest, especially in the
Detroit area," Levin says. "The U.S. and Canada have traditionally
been very willing to welcome and integrate them. They're a success
story, with high average incomes and very little crime. That's not
the case in Europe. Countries like France and Germany are openly
hostile to Arabs. They marginalize them. And they've seen waves of
crime and rioting."
The question isn't whether you're nice to immigrants or not. Jews
have succeeded despite intense hostility throughout history. Arabs
in America and Canada are a small, selected bunch while the
European rabble is more representative of the general
population.
Mister DNA|7.6.09 @ 3:24PM|#
In spite of being a safe city, El Paso suffers from being, well, El Paso.
|7.6.09 @ 3:42PM|#
Shorter Richard Hoste, so many negroes, so few trees.
It's rare to get a true racist at hit and run. We should welcome
the diversity.
Don't want to become an echo chamber.
|7.6.09 @ 3:53PM|#
My sister is moving to El Paso, so I will at some point experience it first hand. Is there anything to do there? I didn't realize it was pretty sizeable.
Mike Laursen|7.6.09 @ 3:57PM|#
Richard, suppose the United States were setting up a screening process for likely criminality among immigrants. Why would we choose whether the person is Hispanic or not as one of the criteria -- it seems to be a weak indicator of criminal tendencies and we know from practical experience that the term "Hispanic" encompasses a wide variety of cultures and individuals. Why, for example, if your only concern is finding demographic groups that indicate likely criminality, and you aren't concerned with race, aren't you proposing to screen out all teenage males and allow in all females and old people no matter what their country of origin?
|7.6.09 @ 4:07PM|#
And what about Phoenix? I hear there is a lot of Mexican gang turf battling going on.
Paul|7.6.09 @ 4:25PM|#
My sister is moving to El Paso, so I will at some point
experience it first hand. Is there anything to do there? I didn't
realize it was pretty sizeable.
Not much, unless you're one of those people that can find fun
anywhere, and I mean anywhere. Yeah, it's sizeable in land area. I
remember when I lived in that area that they were annexing
everything. You'd see a sign "entering to El Paso" a good thirty
minutes before you were actually within sight of anything the rest
of the nation would even lightly refer to as "civilization".
Don't go downtown... no one goes there, nothing to do there. They
do have a dog racing track at Sunland Park. It's in the desert...
terrain very similar to that of Mars or the Moon, except not as
inviting.
When driving on I10, look south and you'll see a real third world
shantytown across the river. Like in the movies shanty town. I
never realized just how shanty town (growing up there and all)
until I got older and started talking to people who lived elsewhere
in the country and reacted to the shantytownness of it all.
Sometimes a little outside perspective is good for...
perspective.
|7.6.09 @ 4:38PM|#
I watched the Gangland show in Nat Geo channel showing how gangs like Barria Azteca operate in El Paso. All the gangbangers said anytime they want to kill someone, they just lure them to Juarez, kill them without fear of law enforcement, then come back to El Paso. Maybe crime in El Paso is so low because all the bad guys do their bad things in Juarez.
|7.6.09 @ 4:40PM|#
Richard Hoste, the article is about how immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than natives, not that race A is more likely to commit crimes than race B. Immigrants come here to work, not commit crimes.
Paul|7.6.09 @ 4:40PM|#
Maybe crime in El Paso is so low because all the bad guys do
their bad things in Juarez.
That crossed my mind, too.
|7.6.09 @ 4:43PM|#
"Countries like France and Germany are openly hostile to Arabs.
They marginalize them. And they've seen waves of crime and
rioting."
As someone who has lived in Germany for two years, I'd like to see
what information he used to throw Germany into the same pot as
France. There are, of course, bad neighborhoods that tend to be
filled with Turks, but the French are an order of magnitude worse
when it comes to marginalisation and systemic discrimination. And
"waves of crime and rioting" is a much more fitting description of
France than Germany.
Most riots here are on 1st May in either Kreuzberg or Hamburg
(mostly leftists and police, some Turks); now and then there are
football-related ones or right-wing demonstrations that end up with
violence against the counter-protest (AntiFa is not particularly
Turkish either).
|7.6.09 @ 4:49PM|#
Jason Riley wrote in "Let Them In":
"In 1980 the incarceration rate of foreign nationals was about one
percentage point below natives; in 1990, it was a little more than
one percentage point lower; and in 2000, it was almost three
percentage points lower. Which means that talk of an immigrant
'crime wave' was unsubstantiated by the facts thirty years ago, and
it's even less true today."
T|7.6.09 @ 4:53PM|#
My sister is moving to El Paso, so I will at some point
experience it first hand. Is there anything to do there? I didn't
realize it was pretty sizeable.
As a young GI stationed at Ft. Bliss, I used to ask this question
of the natives. I got alphabetized listings of bars and nightly
summaries of drink specials. My liver is permanently scarred from
almost 4 years there.
Richard Hoste http://hbdbooks.|7.6.09 @ 5:30PM|#
Richard Hoste, the article is about how immigrants are less
likely to commit crimes than natives, not that race A is more
likely to commit crimes than race B. Immigrants come here to work,
not commit crimes.
Immigrants have children who commit crimes. So immigration at this
point in time means more HIspanics and more Hispanics means more
crime. Immigration = crime, unless you can show that Hispanics
aren't criminally prone or that a large percentage of immigrants
aren't Hispanics.
|7.6.09 @ 5:34PM|#
Richard, suppose the United States were setting up a
screening process for likely criminality among immigrants. Why
would we choose whether the person is Hispanic or not as one of the
criteria -- it seems to be a weak indicator of criminal tendencies
and we know from practical experience that the term "Hispanic"
encompasses a wide variety of cultures and individuals. Why, for
example, if your only concern is finding demographic groups that
indicate likely criminality, and you aren't concerned with race,
aren't you proposing to screen out all teenage males and allow in
all females and old people no matter what their country of
origin?
Who said that that was my only concern? That's the topic of this
particular thread. I care about everything from the voting patterns
of the newcomers to the inherent benefits of homogeneity.
Art-P.O.G.|7.6.09 @ 5:41PM|#
Shorter Richard Hoste: rabble rabble racist assumption rabble rabble moan moan
Warmongering Lunatic|7.6.09 @ 5:41PM|#
Sociologically, El Paso is best understood not as a U.S. city with a high poverty rate, but as a relatively wealthy Mexican suburb separated from the main city (Juarez) by a moat with armed guards on the bridges.
|7.6.09 @ 5:48PM|#
Richard Hoste
So how do you propose the USA accomplishes these goals of
yours?
I have resisted the temptation to ask leading questions.
I want to know your ideas, not your responses or reactions to what
I might think your ideas are.
Obbop|7.6.09 @ 5:50PM|#
Peek at Salinas, California and many of the towns and cities in
the San Joaquin and Sacramento valleys.
Plenty of crimes committed by illegals. Lots of gang activity with
many gangs chock-full of illegals.
Live and work in those areas, be an Anglo male, and revel in an
invading culture of machismo that ridicules education and those
seeking education along with constantly attempting to intimidate
others so as to prove the Chicano manliness by instilling fear in
others, with Anglo males a favorite target.
Of course, when a pack of vatos confront one Anglo it is easy to
intimidate.
Looking at statistics is one thing, especially when the looker is
safe within their cubicle and do not have to live and work amidst
the invading horde.
I grew up amongst the invaders and lived and worked among them for
decades in my adult years until the horrid social and economic
conditions created by millions of illegals made me a refugee within
my own country.
Fleeing to the middle portion of the USA I saw an immense growth in
the illegal population in areas where they were once rare.
Wealth can isolate and insulate you from the barbaric hordes.
The lack of it can, if you are unlucky, convert your locale to what
resembles a 2nd-world country and culture.
Art-P.O.G.|7.6.09 @ 5:56PM|#
of machismo that ridicules education and those seeking education along with constantly attempting to intimidate others so as to prove...manliness
Yes, this sort of thing is a shame, but you can get it domestic, not just imported.
|7.6.09 @ 5:58PM|#
"Richard Hoste http://hbdbooks.com | July 6, 2009, 3:19pm |
#
Hispanics were 3.3 times more likely to be in prison than whites,
and twice as likely to be in jail.(22) There were 267,000 criminal
aliens in all prisons and jails in 2003, about three quarters of
whom were Hispanic.(23) Three point nine percent of Hispanic men
aged 25-29 are in prison or jail, vs. 1.7 percent of whites (11.9
percent of black men of this age are incarcerated).(24)"
I'm just glad I'm a middle aged white guy that all the Richard
Hoste five-0 types ignore.
|7.6.09 @ 6:05PM|#
I've been to the Salinas area as well as many different towns and cities in between Sacramento and L.A. chasing loads of produce to bring to Florida. I've seen lot's of hispanics sweatin their asses of in the fields to earn a few bucks and freezin their asses off in the coolers loading my truck. Always workin damned hard. I've spent a lot of nights in some seemingly poor neighboorhoods with no problems.
|7.6.09 @ 6:08PM|#
Crap. I forgot to give props to the guy in Guadalupe with the roach coach that didn't know more than a half a dozen words of english. Best. Food. Ever.
Federale|7.6.09 @ 6:09PM|#
The obvious answer is that Philly has a much larger black population than El Paso. Violence in the black community is much higher.
The Angry Optimist|7.6.09 @ 6:27PM|#
Looking at statistics is one thing, especially when the looker is safe within their cubicle and do not have to live and work amidst the invading horde.
In other words, you have a wealth of racist assumptions and
anecdotes that somehow "combat" the science of it all. Damn those
statistics, the BrownHorde is invading!
Mike|7.6.09 @ 6:43PM|#
Is pointing out that some ethnic groups commit proportionately more crimes than another racist? If it is, than the word "racist" doesn't have much meaning.
douglas gray|7.6.09 @ 6:54PM|#
It sounds racist, but it's largely due to the lack of blacks, and the absence of criminal gangs in El Paso. Everyone knows but is afraid to mention the huge percentage of capital crimes committed by blacks, when you consider the percentage of the population they comprise.
johnl|7.6.09 @ 7:01PM|#
Balko throws away Rep King's findings too quickly, and in so doing misses a real calamity. Two thirds of the people detained for immigration violations are USA citizens.
|7.6.09 @ 7:02PM|#
I think part of the problem is the sheer number of immigrants
probably slows down assimilation, and makes problems seem
bigger.
For example, we went to the lake over the weekend, and in all of
the bathrooms there was shit covered toilet paper on the stalls of
the floor (a common problem). I guess in Mexico the plumbing is bad
so this is a common practice. But whatever the reason it's still
nasty.
With lower numbers of immigrants I think it's easier for Mexicans
to become Americans because they are less likly to be insulated in
their own neighborhoods. I think it's also easier for society to
handle the smaller numbers.
For example, english leaners are a small problem when they are a
couple of percent of the school, but when they are the majority it
makes things more difficult.
And to head off the normal comments (he's a racist bullshit)
whenever anyone says anything critical,
my wife is indian, and my nephew half Mexican. It's not the race
that is a problem, it's the difficulties with this many immigrants
in assimilating.
Let the bullshit respsonses begin :P
Slap the Enlightened!|7.6.09 @ 7:23PM|#
Yes, this sort of thing is a shame, but you can get it
domestic, not just imported.
Of course you can get it domestic. I can also get a headache
without hitting myself over the head with a hammer. That does not
imply an endorsement for hitting oneself over the head with a
hammer.
The Angry Optimist|7.6.09 @ 8:00PM|#
Is pointing out that some ethnic groups commit proportionately more crimes than another racist? If it is, than the word "racist" doesn't have much meaning.
you can say it all you want, but given that it does not nor should
it not have any policy considerations, one has to wonder what your
motivations are.
I notice that all of the racists never mention anything about
detaining or exiling men in general, despite the overwhelming
statistics about men and crime. So what gives?
Craig|7.6.09 @ 8:07PM|#
You can analyze this romantically:
"Overall, immigrants have a stake in this country, and they
recognize it..." They're really an exceptional sort of American.
They come here having left their family and friends back home. They
come at some cost to themselves in terms of security and social
relationships. They are extremely success-oriented, and adjust very
well to the competitive circumstances in the United States." ...the
very process of migration tends to select for people with a low
potential for criminality.
Or logically:
People here illegally want to keep a low profile so as to avoid
deportation. Hence, they tend not to commit crimes that might
increase their chances of getting noticed by the authorities.
</a|7.6.09 @ 8:15PM|#
you can say it all you want, but given that it does not nor
should it not have any policy considerations, one has to wonder
what your motivations are.
You're saying that quantifiable facts shouldn't have any influence
on policy? You have an excellent future as a congressman ahead of
you.
Craig|7.6.09 @ 8:17PM|#
El Paso is the 21st largest city in the US (by population.)
Texas now has 6 of the 21 largest US cities:
4 - Houston
7 - San Antonio
8 - Dallas
15 - Austin
17 - Ft. Worth
21 - El Paso
Amazing what low taxes can do for immigration (from within the
US.)
Michael Ejercito|7.6.09 @ 9:22PM|#
Everyone knows but is afraid to mention the huge percentage of capital crimes committed by blacks, when you consider the percentage of the population they comprise.
Why should we be afraid to mention that?
johnl|7.6.09 @ 10:37PM|#
There is a little bit of tripping over qualifiers in
"""
El Paso also has some of the laxer gun control policies of any
non-Texan big city in the country
"""
El Paso isn't a non-Texan big city.
|7.6.09 @ 10:43PM|#
Oh, dear, nearly five hours later I find I am waiting for a
reply to my 5:48pm request from Richard Hoste: viz,
So how do you propose the USA accomplishes these goals of yours?
I have resisted the temptation to ask leading questions.
I want to know your ideas, not your responses or reactions to what I might think your ideas are.
Ok now I will ask with all the leading questions.
How do you propose the USA prevents people seeking better lives
from coming here to achieve them short of genocide?
Should we build a fence or a wall? All evidence suggests that the
dirty greasers will simply find a way through or around it.
Now as a civil engineer, my preference is to construct a fifty mile
wide sea level canal along the border. Now, of course, all those
scummy legal types will insist that there is private property on
both sides of the border, but men of great vision such as you and
myself will never be deterred by trifles like due process and
individual rights.
After all, think of the stimulus. Idle law school graduates will be
able to spend their time writing legal instruments, engineers and
draftsman will be mobilized drawing plans.
Heavens, unemployment will be ended.
And the end result, a conduit for travel between the oceans such
that we have never seen.
|7.6.09 @ 10:48PM|#
So sad, I thought Dick Head...er Hoste...might be a
man of great vision like myself.
Sad isn't it?
|7.6.09 @ 10:54PM|#
And all you "all those scummy legal types" here at Hit and Run,
do I have to name you?
You and your technicalities, like "due process" and "constitutional
authority".
All of you are nothing in the face of men of great vision like Dick
Head...er Hoste...and myself.
|7.6.09 @ 10:58PM|#
"After all, think of the stimulus. Idle law school graduates
will be able to spend their time writing legal instruments,
engineers and draftsman will be mobilized drawing plans."
And good white American Union labor will collect wages far above
market levels.
And the national debt will expand, but it doesn't matter because we
owe it to ourselves.
|7.6.09 @ 11:37PM|#
People here illegally want to keep a low profile so as to
avoid deportation. Hence, they tend not to commit crimes that might
increase their chances of getting noticed by the
authorities.
Indeed, since people here illegally are already outlaws, they
actually are more likely to commit crimes than people who
would be here legally under an immigration regime where commiting a
crime got you deported.
In other words, given an open immigration system where anyone who
was not a threat got a visa and people who commit crimes are prima
facie considered threats, people who got visas would be quite
unlikely to commit crimes.
Criminal immigrants couldn't even hide behind the notion that
society looks the other way for minor offenses because their labor
is so prized. Under open borders, commodity immigrant labor would
be replaceable, so neither empoyers nor communities need suffer
criminal immigrants.
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 12:48AM|#
Maybe crime in El Paso is so low because all the bad guys do
their bad things in Juarez.
Having seen El Paso and Juarez with my own eyes, that sounds about
right.
Polymath Jake|7.7.09 @ 12:52AM|#
Given that it's nearly impossible for low-skilled immigrants
to work in the United States legitimately, it's safe to say that a
significant percentage of El Paso's foreign-born population is
living here illegally.
Assuming that a significant amount of these foreign-born immigrants
in El Paso are there illegally, wouldn't it make the most sense to
think that they are on their best behavior because, say, something
as silly as throwing a punch in a bar fight might earn them a
one-way ticket straight back to, say, Ciudad Juarez?
I think this is a far more motivating factor to be a good human and
is a far more realistic explanation than "inherent immigrant
industriousness" or whatnot.
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 12:59AM|#
I care about everything from the voting patterns of the
newcomers to the inherent benefits of homogeneity.
The inherent benefits of homogeneity? I think I get the picture.
You wish everything about American society were like eating Jello
salad with little bits of marshmallow and canned peaches in
it.
No thank you. I grew up Lutheran. I love Jello salad as much as the
next guy, but I ain't giving up my Taqueria Dos Hermanos and my
Falafel Drive-In.
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 1:14AM|#
Is pointing out that some ethnic groups commit
proportionately more crimes than another racist?
Not necessarily, but when debating about policy governing
immigration into our country, founded on principles of individual
freedom, it needs to be established:
(a) why we would scrutinize individual candidates demographically
(by race, country of origin, income level, whatever categorization
one might propose) instead of looking at his or her individual
references, background check, sponsors, etc.
(b) if we have established that it isn't feasible to look at
immigrants as individuals, it needs to be shown how impartial
reasoning would arrive at race as the best, or even a good,
demographic indicator of likely criminality.
A case for race in (b) just can't be made, since sex and age are
much stronger demographic indicators of likely criminality. Anybody
who persists in claiming we need to screen out all immigrants of
this or that race because they are more prone to criminality is
clearly motivated by racism.
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 1:16AM|#
Indeed, since people here illegally are already outlaws,
they actually are more likely to commit crimes than people who
would be here legally under an immigration regime where commiting a
crime got you deported.
Both sids of this argument are silly. It's all arm-chair reasoning
about what might be going through the mind of an illegal immigrant
about to commit a crime. Who knows whether illegal status is likely
to tip more towards or away from committing crimes, or doesn't have
much influence at all.
The Angry Optimist|7.7.09 @ 1:25AM|#
You're saying that quantifiable facts shouldn't have any
influence on policy?
I'm saying that these facts are irrelevant to policy, as they
should be. Or, oh hey, #, can you think of a policy that would take
these numbers into account that would not be overinclusive? And,
again, why am I hearing nothing from you about denying citizenship
and visas to all men who try to come here?
Art-P.O.G.|7.7.09 @ 1:25AM|#
The Angry Optimist | July 6, 2009, 8:00pm | #
Mike Laursen | July 7, 2009, 1:14am | #
Well said.
Art-P.O.G.|7.7.09 @ 1:31AM|#
That does not imply an endorsement for hitting oneself over the head with a hammer.
You could ask yourself if this sociological observation actually has any pattern or relationship with immigration status at all.
|7.7.09 @ 1:54AM|#
El Paso is safe due to the high lithium rate in the water. This keeps those people chilled out!
|7.7.09 @ 2:34AM|#
Radley "assumed" there was/is a large illegal population in El
Paso.
I live in Del Rio, Tx. I can see Mexico from my front porch. We
have very few illegals living in the area. We have a very large
Border Patrol presence all across the border. When wet backs come
over the border, they are not staying here. They are hauling ass to
larger cities, inland, where they can disapear.
Most of the immigrants in border towns are here legally, and spent
many years and much money to become legal. They will also be some
of the first to turn in illegals.
We do have a cowboy mentality here and we carry guns. You don't
perpetrate violent crimes when there is a good chance that your
"victim" is better armed, and maybe meaner than you are.
Tsakashvili|7.7.09 @ 3:18AM|#
"El Paso also has some of the laxer gun control policies of any
non-Texan big city in the country"
El Paso is in Texas, dumbass.
LarryA|7.7.09 @ 4:11AM|#
I know some who embrace our system and strive to create a
better life here.
v.
But too many are uneducated, live 2-3 families in filthy small
houses, work under the table, as for native born, these women are
baby factories on welfare, different men, and the babies are native
born to grow up to be gangmembers. They learn quickly how to use
the system and use a barter system. A prime example is the illegal,
deals in drugs, makes money, is successful, converts to legal
businessman using illegal money, gives back to Hispanics and
becomes civic leader respected by all.
Given the War on Poverty and the War on Drugs, the second group you
cite is just as much "embracing our system" as the first. Why are
you criticizing them for playing the system using the rules our
government wrote?
Most of these high-immigrant cities are also stabilized by
large populations and relatively isolated, so there's no point to
crime -- you'd get caught right away.
That's certainly not true in El Paso, given that you can stroll
across the border to Mexico and escape U.S. law enforcement.
People here illegally want to keep a low profile so as to avoid
deportation. Hence, they tend not to commit crimes that might
increase their chances of getting noticed by the
authorities.
So people here illegally are more rational than native-born? I.e.
they don't want to be deported so they obey the law, where
native-born commit crimes even though they risk going to prison?
That speaks highly of the immigrants' self-control and deferral of
gratification.
El Paso also has some of the laxer gun control policies of any
non-Texan big city in the country
"""
El Paso isn't a non-Texan big city.
Not saying it is. Given that Texas has a preemption law, all gun
control is at the state level. Therefore El Paso has the
same gun control laws as other Texas big cities, but less
than most big cities outside Texas. Could have been worded
clearer.
Marian Kechlibar|7.7.09 @ 4:37AM|#
As an European, I am quite aware about the tensions between
Arabs and natives in the Western Europe, and I am afraid that Mr.
Balko is ignorant about the issue.
Quite a lot (probably over one half) of American Arabs are actually
Melkite and Greek-Orthodox Christians, who have been gradually
pushed out of Middle East by growing religious intolerance (ask any
Christian Iraqi how does he like living with Islamist gangs). The
Lebanese civil war has also pushed a lot of the educated middle
class out of the country. You know, the guys and gals who studied
on American University of Beirut, spoke English with Bostonian
accent and wore Gucci to work.
So, you received a stream of religiously compatible, educated and
relatively rich immigrants. If you add absence of a spoiling
welfare state to the mix, you have a good recipe for success.
ENTER France, which imported several million Arabs from Algeria,
the most lawless and violent country of Arab world. Algeria is
infected with extreme religious fanaticism to such degree that a
15-year long civil war has been fought there recently, with
Islamists slitting throats of people regularly and slaughtering
whole villages (the estimated body count is 250 000 dead).
ENTER Holland, which imported manual workers from the Rif mountains
in Morocco. The Rif mountains are the most backward region of
Morocco and the Moroccan king was quite happy to get rid of some of
these tribal troublemakers. More of half of the imported workforce
was functionally illiterate even in Arabic, and could not speak a
word Dutch.
Add the toxic welfare systems to the mix (althought these have been
reformed to a large extent recently - precisely because of the
widespread abuse and the fiscal strain that they put on the - and
you will see that the difference is not only in "marginalization"
or "racism". It may well be the other way round: the French
marginalize "beurs" precisely because they have bad experience.
Art-P.O.G.|7.7.09 @ 6:16AM|#
Algeria, the most lawless and violent country of Arab world.
You lost all credibility right there.
Marian Kechlibar|7.7.09 @ 6:37AM|#
Art: Feel free to correct me.
Lawlessness and violence are not easily measured, though. So let us
look at the Arab countries:
Morocco: definitely a lawful country.
Algeria: violent Islamist insurgency since 1992, the government has
hard time controlling its own rural areas.
Libya: a centralized dictatorship. Quite calm.
Egypt: a centralized dictatorship, a tad better than Libya. Quite
calm.
Gaza: theocratic rule, definitely less chaotic than Algeria.
West Bank: under Israeli control. Tense silence.
Lebanon: de-facto separated into several sectarian enclaves, each
under control of its own groups (Druze, Hezbollah). Tense silence,
but not an outright explosion.
Syria: a centralized dictatorship. Quite calm.
Iraq: violent, but slowly improving. It seems that the insurgency
will not take 15 years. So far, the only serious competition for
Algeria for the title of the most violent and lawless
country.
Small Gulf States: stable and law-abiding.
Saudi Arabia: stable and law-abiding.
Oman and Yemen: here, I admit my ignorance. I do not know anything
about these countries.
There is a big question whether Sudan and Mauritania should be
classified as Arab countries. If Sudan is, it is the third
candidate for the title. But southern Sudan is not an Arab zone; it
is black Africa.
So, for me, Algeria takes the prize, because of the longevity of
the local insurgence. Even if you look at the patterns of foreign
involvement in Iraq, Algerian suicide bombers go to detonate
themselves in Iraq, but not vice versa.
Art-P.O.G.|7.7.09 @ 7:10AM|#
Kechlibar...I consider Iraq to be worse, although I am biased.
Also, mea culpa upon further reflection for considering the
Algerians to be Berber as much or more so than Arab. I guess that's
beside the point.
Rather than having purely ethnic considerations for the Algerians,
I was considering them as part of a
North-African/Middle-Eastern/West Asian geographic area that
includes places like Afghanistan and Somalia, and by comparison,
Algeria really didn't seem all that bad to me.
If it's worth anything to you, most of the immigrants I knew from
war-torn areas in that part of the world weren't particularly
violent, although I know immigration filters for that sort of
thing.
Marian Kechlibar|7.7.09 @ 7:54AM|#
In July 2006, Iraq would seem to me an undisputed "winner". In
July 2009, it seems more hopeful to me than Algeria.
Your experience is consistent with basic logic. Most people who run
from war zones are not particularly eager to replay their
experience in a new country.
Unfortunately, in the rest, there is a potential fifth column - of
previous active combatants (if not outright terrorists) who moved
away because the ground got "too hot" for them. It is Europe's
problem that it accepted such people in the 90s as "asylants". That
is how the Salafist group for preaching and combat established
presence in France...
As for the classical violent crime, the second generation of the
immigrants seem to be more involved than the first.
Oddly enough, I just read Nibras Kazimi's report from Baghdad. He
praised development of an old Baghdad neighbourhood which used to
be a no-go zone even under Saddam. When asked in the comments, he
elaborated that this neighbourhood was inhabited mainly by Sudanese
and Egyptian gastarbeiters, and that it was a notoriously violent
place which the Iraqis shunned.
So, these kind of problems are not Western-only.
|7.7.09 @ 8:07AM|#
"You don't see "Latinos Need Not Apply" or "No Mexicans" signs
posted on public buildings the way you did with the Italians and
the Irish..."
Of course you don't genius, the ACLU would be all over it, not to
mention there would be a huge lawsuit for discrimination.
Art-P.O.G.|7.7.09 @ 8:08AM|#
The reason some second-generation immigrants assimilate
extremely well, and others fail pretty hard to do so are, I'm sure,
typically fairly complex. Those are interesting points, Marian
Kechlibar.
Maybe I'm just wary of people making overly broad descriptions of
immigrants, or other outsider groups, for that matter, but in some
cases I suppose there is a pretty harsh culture shock when it comes
to the immigrant experience in Europe.
Marian Kechlibar|7.7.09 @ 9:21AM|#
I believe that culture plays a big role.
The Kosovars are about 0.5% of Europe's population, but it is
estimated that they control 50-70% of the continent's heroin
business.
The Corsicans are a similarly small fraction of France's
population, but their criminal networks are legendary.
Ditto with Sicilians.
On the other hand, nobody ever heard of ruthless Welsh mafia or
Icelandic hitman syndicate.
Granite26|7.7.09 @ 9:37AM|#
Wait... did that article seriously say that the crime rate for
'undocumented' immigrants is less than... any other group?
Numerically impossible, because right or wrong 100% of
'undocumented' immigrants are criminals. 100%. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
Anybody claiming differently is citing propaganda and should be
discounted similarly.
If you want to claim that they are less likely to be caught or
arrested or even commit OTHER crimes, that's fine. Just don't
pretend they aren't criminals and expect me to bob my head and play
along
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 9:53AM|#
As an European, I am quite aware about the tensions between
Arabs and natives in the Western Europe, and I am afraid that Mr.
Balko is ignorant about the issue.
Being from Europe, you may have missed the obvious. If we're
talking about El Paso, Texas we're talking about crime rates among
Mexican and other Latin immigrants. Not sure why you think it
relevant to go into a detailed discourse on Arab immigrants.
Marian Kechlibar|7.7.09 @ 9:57AM|#
Mike,
if you look at the article, it actually has a paragraph comparing
the integration of Arab communities in the USA and in Europe. I was
reacting to that paragraph.
Richard Hoste http://hbdbooks.|7.7.09 @ 10:30AM|#
The inherent benefits of homogeneity? I think I get the
picture. You wish everything about American society were like
eating Jello salad with little bits of marshmallow and canned
peaches in it.
No thank you. I grew up Lutheran. I love Jello salad as much as the
next guy, but I ain't giving up my Taqueria Dos Hermanos and my
Falafel Drive-In.
You're right. You can't eat a falafel without an Arab next to
you.
I like diversity. I'd like a country where people can have blue
eyes, green eyes, grey eyes, brown eyes, violet eyes, hazel eyes,
or amber eyes and where people can have red hair, black hair, brown
hair, blond hair, gray hair or auburn hair.
Who exactly are the "people of color?"
|7.7.09 @ 10:50AM|#
As a former resident of El Paso (1969-1977) it's important to
view the city's low crime rate historically and not just in the
context of the current immigration debate. The city has a history
of low crime that dates back decades.
One thing not mentioned in the article is the Texas Tranquilizer.
In 1971, a biochemist identified high levels of lithium in El
Paso's well water supply.
We can point to immigrant desire to make a better life as one
possible reason El Paso is mellower but I suspect the weed and the
water wins over immigrant ideology. Maybe it's just me.
Joe|7.7.09 @ 11:14AM|#
There's no mention that for immigrants (legal or illegal), it's simple to cross back and forth over the border. Many murders that would have happened in El Paso definitely happen in Juarez. History Channel just had a show on the Barrios Azteca gang (excuse my mispelling) and the interviews with gang members talked about luring their victims to Juarez because they could literally get away with murder over there.
|7.7.09 @ 11:56AM|#
You've got to be kidding me. The links for "Irish" and "Italian"
are to some wikipedia pages? How amateurish. Along with the
argument that Irish and Italian immigrants experienced racism
because they deserved it -- well, that's just extremely
embarrassing content to find in Reason. But, somehow, not
surprising. Some racism is just . . . superior to other
racism.
The story has serious problems. Federal statistics gathering does
not consistently count the ethnicity of offenders: instead, the
"Hispanic" category is often folded into race, and thus counted as
"white." The same is not true of victim statistics, in which
ethnicity is consistently a separate category. Interesting, that,
and something that the criminologists quoted here know perfectly
well to be the case. The other unexplored issue is the high crime
rate in cities with large numbers of second-generation immigrants,
such as L.A. This is part of the story, though it impedes the
author's agenda and is thus passed over in silence.
This is the most embarrassing, amateurish and offensive article
I've read in some time.
|7.7.09 @ 12:43PM|#
The reason El Paso is safe is because there are over 1100 federal law enforcement officers stationed in the El Paso area (US Border Patrol Agents in El Paso proper, Fabens, Ysleta and Santa Teresa, NM, all in the greater El Paso area). Their mandate is to keep illegals out of El Paso. They are the reason the greater El Paso area is among the safest cities ine El PAso. In addition, El Paso has always been a waypoint to the illegal immigrant (read, they pass through El Paso and for the most part, do not settle in El Paso).
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 12:58PM|#
I care about ... the inherent benefits of
homogeneity
I like diversity.
Please explain how you reconcile these two contradictory statements
you have made.
Mike Laursen|7.7.09 @ 1:03PM|#
Their mandate is to keep illegals out of El Paso.
Please explain further. Your statement implies that El Paso has
arranged that the Federal government stations border officers there
not to keep illegal aliens out of the United States, but just to
keep them out of El Paso.
KingHarvest|7.7.09 @ 5:01PM|#
Anyone hear Lou Dobbs' interview of Radley? LD kept running
around in circles, saying "I take a hard line against illegal
immigration" followed by "I really admire and enjoy working with
(?) illegal immigrants." Unfortunately, the ensuing paradox sort of
consumed the interview and stifled any real discussion.
Dobbs' masked attempt to provide a humanistic note on top of his
closeted GOP views was incredibly dull.
Interviewers who treat illegal immigration and the drug war as
static, monolithic entities are hardly the channels to open
debate.
Good exposure, though, Radley!
|7.7.09 @ 6:25PM|#
"Along with the argument that Irish and Italian immigrants
experienced racism because they deserved it -- well, that's just
extremely embarrassing content to find in Reason."
Heh. Mr. Balko clearly states, "An immigrant group's propensity for
criminality may be partly determined by how they're received in
their new country." It was the very next sentence.
Talk about "embarrassing"...
|7.7.09 @ 10:49PM|#
My name is Josue Enriquez. i'm Chuco (el paso) borna and raised. i love this city with all my heart. everybody here is nice and treats you with respect. i always feel safe here and that being that i live in one of the poorest places in el paso. We leave alot of things outside our house that probably cost some money and it never gets stollen. people from other cities just feel unsafe here because they are not from here and they think what everybody else says is true. I think people should be more open to immigration since most immigrants here are also hard workers. Even i have family who is here illegaly and they just spend there time working day and night for a bull shit pay check to american standards. I also want to comment that the war accross the border should start being stoped by the United States Gov. since a lot of the criminals that comit the crimes in Juarez are American and sometimes from other countries. and weapons aren't crossing into the USA. they are actually crossing into mexico. 90% of the weapons being used in the cartel wars actually came from the USA. so any weapons that cross this way are actually just going back to where they were originally from
jacob|7.7.09 @ 11:50PM|#
"Every Mexican/hispanic/latino(a) I've ever known had a very
strong work ethic"
Well, it seems like you've never met these folks:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=46146
On a related note, birds flying south makes it snow...
|7.8.09 @ 8:37AM|#
Regarding my comment and to respond to Mr. Laursen: My comments regarding El Paso, Texas and its safety, addresses specifically the effect of significant federal law enforcement in the community. Border Patrol officers, wherever they are on the border (including Canada), are mandated to keeping terrorists, weapons of mass destruction and illegal aliens out and locating and arresting those that succeed in entering the country illegally.
Bug|7.8.09 @ 6:45PM|#
Something that surprises me is the number of outright bigots who read a pro-immigration magazine like Reason. There's some overlap between the libertarian bunch and the anti-immigration whackjobs, many of whom claim to be "libertarians".
not sure|7.9.09 @ 5:49PM|#
Is it possible that El Paso's low crime rate is due to the
illegals not reporting crime? Much violent crime happens between
people who know each other, and if the crime is not being reported
out of fear of repercussions due to the victim/911caller/perp being
in El Paso illegally. The low murder rate may shoot a hole in my
theory.
I have no data, only thoughts.
|7.10.09 @ 1:13PM|#
Obbop: "Looking at statistics is one thing, especially when the
looker is safe within their cubicle and do not have to live and
work amidst the invading horde.
I grew up amongst the invaders and lived and worked among them for
decades in my adult years until the horrid social and economic
conditions created by millions of illegals made me a refugee within
my own country."
Obbop..maybe you should look at history a bit more closely before
you open your racist mouth! The Puritans, the Anglo-Saxons, your
ancestors who came to this soil, who wanted to "practice religious
freedom," were the "invading hordes" to this promised land. If
that's the way you feel, "a refugee in your own country," maybe
it's pay back time! Los Mexicanos, los Cubanos, los Puertoriqueños,
los Venezolanos, los Españoles estan aqui para quedarse! Welcome to
Atzlán, AMIGO!
|7.11.09 @ 10:15AM|#
What applies to America doesn't apply to Germany: About 10% of
the German population consists of foreigners, whereas more than 20%
of all crimes are committed by foreigners, mostly Turks.
I don't want to say that Turks are generally more criminal than
Germans, there are indeed a lot of Turkish entrepreneurs and
hardworking Turks here, but especially young Turks are often
extremely aggressive, uneducated, unemployed and criminal.
The reason may be that immigrants come to the USA in order to work
hard and earn a living, whereas German immigrants are lured by an
all too generous welfare state.
|7.11.09 @ 11:23PM|#
What...Did Michael Moore write this mess??
As a subscription holder and some time foundation contributor (no,
really!!)I'm very disappointed in this piece.
The violent Latino thugs in El Paso -mostly members of the Barrio
Azteca gang- merely export their brutality a scant few block across
the Rio Grande, where their odds of getting caught practically
evaporate.
|7.12.09 @ 3:10AM|#
Look at the source cited by the 'Irish' Wikipedia page, and
you'll find it says the opposite of what Balko claims.
http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm
'No one has ever seen one of these NINA signs because they were
extremely rare or nonexistent.'
'Newspaper ads for women sometimes did include NINA, but Irish
women nevertheless dominated the market for domestics because they
provided a reliable supply of an essential service. Newspaper ads
for men with NINA were exceedingly rare. The slogan was commonplace
in upper class London by 1820; in 1862 in London there was a song,
"No Irish Need Apply," purportedly by a maid looking for work. The
song reached America and was modified to depict a man recently
arrived in America who sees a NINA ad and confronts and beats up
the culprit. The song was an immediate hit, and is the source of
the myth. Evidence from the job market shows no significant
discrimination against the Irish--on the contrary, employers
eagerly sought them out.'
The Wikipedia page for Italians says nothing about such
signs.
I'm libertarian and pro-immigration, but I must say the evidence is
strong that Balko is a hack.
DJ|7.12.09 @ 2:09PM|#
Men's Health calling El Paso a happy place - now that's comedy.
Did the reporters actually go there? Fascinating town, but it
always seems to be in a bad mood. Maybe it's having to stare at the
fresh hell that is CJ across the river every day.
I wish the writer and people quoted in the story had been a little
more curious -- another possible explanation for the low crime rate
is the federal presence there, seeing as CJ is such a mess.
John Rohan|7.14.09 @ 2:55AM|#
The theory that immigrants cause fewer crimes than US born
citizens has been rife with several fallacies. Radley Balko doesn't
point to any one single study, but I discussed some of the problems
with such studies in the past here:
http://www.shieldofachilles.net/2008/02/immigration-and-crime-here-we-go-again.html
But to summarize, here are the two main problems:
1. Simple Math. US-born adults have spent far more years of their
life, on average, in the USA than foreign-born adults. Ergo, they
have had more time to rack up crimes and offenses here. If "Joe
American" has lived in the United States for all of his 30 years,
and "Jose Mexicano", also 30, arrived here only 3 years ago, then
Joe has had roughly ten times as long to rack up a criminal record
here. Granted, Joe was unlikely to commit many crimes while he was
in diapers, but even if you only count the years after he could be
tried as an adult (usually age 16) then he has had almost 5 times
as long to add offenses to his criminal record. The only way to
compare it fairly, would be to add into the equation any criminal
offenses these foreign-born people have been convicted for before
they entered the United States.
2) The real issue legal vs. illegal immigrants, and people keep
conflating the two. This is important, because legal immigrants get
a criminal background check at some point in the naturalization
process, depending on what method they are using. Someone who was
convicted of a serious crime is not allowed to legally enter the
country in the first place, creating a type of 'filter' to the
data.
3) Severity. If US citizens are mostly guilty of property crimes
and foreign-born residents are disproportionately guilty of murders
and/or DUIs, isn't that important to know? I can already
confidently state that illegal immigrants are far more likely to
commit identity theft than the average American. And fully 100% of
them are guilty of entering the country illegally in the first
place.
|7.14.09 @ 5:00PM|#
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/07/14/mexico.violence/index.html
Radley. Your magazine is named for a capacity you failed to
exercise when you created this article.
El Paso is a city with lots of cops but also where illegals keep a
very low profile. They do all their killing, rapes, slavery etc in
a place where they know they will face no consequences. Barrio
Azteca told its men on the ground that they were to keep El Paso
clean and relatively crime free or there would be severe penalties.
You cannot move out of the world of drug dealer and into a business
where you can launder your money if you do not exist in two
worlds.
Also are you aware that crime statistics do not track Hispanics at
all? Hispanics as a victim class are tracked separately, but as
perps they are lumped in with whites...Very strange.
Not all libertarians believe that we should destroy our sovereign
nation with open borders. If America had no free health care, no
free schools and no one could come here and live without a job,
then open borders would be great. Also if I had wings I would sell
my car and cancel my insurance. Wake up!
Pingback| 10.28.09 @ 1:21AM
Immigrants Keeping El Paso Safe - Philadelphia Speaks Forum - Neighborhoods, Sports, links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
…as a whole, as well as for cities with large immigrant populations such as Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami, and cities along the U.S.-Mexico border such as San Diego and El Paso. The El Paso Miracle - Reason Magazine __________________ "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past" Jonathan Safran Foer Bookmarks Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google « Previous Thread…
Pingback| 10.28.09 @ 2:16AM
Does anyone know anything about sunbury pa? - Pennsylvania (PA) - Page 2 - City-Data links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
…Philly 831 posts, read 322,832 times Reputation: 126 Quote: Originally Posted by debbon1 I heard alot of the illegals have left Hazelton and are now in Sunbury. what the hell does that mean? The El Paso Miracle - Reason Magazine America would be a lot safer without Americans. Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Detailed information about all U.S. cities,…
Pingback| 11.19.09 @ 2:45PM
Immigration Impact » Blog Archive » CIS Report Attempts to Erase 100 Years of Researc links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
…Los Angeles (IIMMLA) survey, the Children of Immigrants Longitudinal Study (CILS), the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health), and in-depth community-based studies in cities such as El Paso, Chicago, San Diego, and Miami. Moreover, it is not simply the IPC and PPIC which have drawn upon these many sources of data in concluding that immigration is not associated with higher rates of crime or…
|11.20.09 @ 1:45PM|#
I was born and raised there, but moved to Baltimore about 6 years
ago. BIG freaking difference! We are definitely the friendliest,
not just speaking for El Paso, but for all of Texas. One guy
mentioned that perhaps the crime is low because illegals don't
report it; actually dead people don;t need to be reported, they
are found. If there is a dead body, it counts as a homicide.
Duh.
Baltimore really is bad and maybe it has something to do with the
black population and the fact that they don't have the same
aspirations as Hispanics or other immigrants of other nations.
Leave a Comment
More Articles by Radley Balko
- How to Get Ahead in Law, Radley Balko, November 20, 2009
- "It Opened Our Eyes", Radley Balko, November 16, 2009
- Absolute Immunity on Trial, Radley Balko, November 9, 2009
Related Articles (Crime, Immigration)
- How to Get Ahead in Law, Radley Balko, November 20, 2009
- The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament, Jacob Sullum, November 11, 2009
- No Accountability, Radley Balko, October 26, 2009
- We're All Felons, Now, Radley Balko, October 19, 2009
- Bigot Bonus, Jacob Sullum, October 14, 2009
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