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Court Upholds New York's Limits on Unauthorized Practice of Law
From Upsolve, Inc. v. James, decided Friday by Judge Lewis Kaplan (S.D.N.Y.) (for the earlier decision reaching the opposite result, see this post):
The nonprofit Upsolve, Inc., wishes to train non-lawyers like the Rev. John Udo-Okon to provide free legal advice to consumers facing debt-collection lawsuits. But that conduct would violate New York's prohibition on the practice of law by anyone other than a licensed attorney. The question in this case is whether Upsolve and the Rev. Udo-Okon have a First Amendment right to engage in their proposed course of conduct notwithstanding the state's licensing law. For the reasons that follow, they do not….
In earlier proceedings, Judge Paul A. Crotty granted plaintiffs' motion for a preliminary injunction. In finding that plaintiffs were likely to prevail on their free-speech claim, Judge Crotty held that the UPL Rules were a content-based regulation of speech that likely could not survive strict scrutiny….
In September 2025, the Second Circuit vacated the preliminary injunction. The court agreed with Judge Crotty that, as applied to "convey[ing] … legal advice to a client," the UPL Rules regulate speech. But it held that the UPL Rules are content neutral and therefore subject to only intermediate scrutiny. The court remanded for reconsideration of plaintiffs' entitlement to preliminary injunctive relief under that lower standard….
Under the First Amendment, a state may pass no law abridging "the freedom of speech." This provision generally gives everyone a right to express themselves through words or conduct. In deciding a First Amendment challenge, the first step is to determine whether the law at issue restricts expression—that is, whether "the conduct triggering coverage under the statute consists of communicating a message." In this case, the Second Circuit already has held that "New York's UPL statutes, as applied to Plaintiffs, constitute a regulation of speech."
The next step in a First Amendment analysis is to determine whether the law's applicability to particular speech turns on "the topic discussed or the idea or message expressed." If so, the law is generally considered "content based" and subject to strict scrutiny. If, instead, the law is justified "without reference to the content of the regulated speech," the law is considered "content neutral" and subject to intermediate scrutiny. The Second Circuit has determined that New York's UPL Rules "are content neutral and thus subject only to intermediate scrutiny."
The final step (and the only one at issue here) is the application of intermediate scrutiny on which the government bears the burden of proof. Content-neutral regulations of speech are lawful only if they (1) "advance[ ] important governmental interests unrelated to the suppression of free speech" and (2) "[do] not burden substantially more speech than necessary to further those interests."
Under the first prong of this standard, the government must show that the challenged law seeks to address governmental interests that are "important" and "real" (as opposed to "merely conjectural") and that the regulation will address the problem "in a direct and material way." Under the second prong, the government must show that the regulation does not "burden substantially more speech than is necessary" to further the government's interests. The regulation need not be "the least speech-restrictive means" of addressing the problem.
Rather, a court must afford the government a certain "latitude" and may not invalidate a law "simply because [it] concludes that the government's interest could be adequately served by some less-speech-restrictive alternative." So long as a regulation is narrowly tailored to advancing governmental interests that "would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation," a court must defer to a government's reasonable determination about "how much protection of [those interests] is wise and how that level of [protection] is to be attained." It follows that the validity of a content-neutral regulation "depends on the relation it bears to the overall problem the government seeks to correct, not on the extent to which it furthers the government's interests in an individual case."
The government often will need to adduce evidence to demonstrate that a regulation withstands intermediate scrutiny—such as proof that obvious, substantially less-speech-restrictive alternatives would not advance the government's interests just as effectively. But a court may conclude that a law is narrowly tailored to important government interests at the pleading stage, without resort to extrinsic evidence….
New York has a "well-established interest in regulating attorney conduct and in maintaining ethical behavior and independence among the members of the legal profession." It cannot reasonably be disputed that this interest qualifies as "important"—indeed, the Supreme Court has described it as "compelling" and "substantial." The goal of such regulations is to protect the integrity of "the primary governmental function of administering justice" as well as to "protect the public from ignorance, inexperience and unscrupulousness."
The UPL Rules, in conjunction with the qualifications for licensure, clearly further these interests. The regulations require that those wishing to practice law obtain legal education, pass examinations designed to measure their competency to practice law, and demonstrate that they have the moral character and fitness to serve as an officer of the court. "[L]icensure based on specified standards of education, experience, and testing" is a form of regulation long recognized "directly and materially to alleviate concerns about ignorant, incompetent, and/or deceptive" conduct by professionals…. The complaint itself acknowledges that the UPL Rules "are designed to protect consumers from the risk of unreliable or unscrupulous representation and thereby increase public faith in the justice system," and that the law serves those purposes "in many applications."
The state's interests are particularly strong here. In the context of plaintiffs' lawsuit, the UPL rules are being applied to the giving of individualized legal advice about how to respond to a pending lawsuit, including what legal defenses to raise (or not raise). That advice will be given in an organized setting in which clients will be asked to sign a "User Agreement" in exchange for receiving assistance from non-lawyers who will identify themselves as "Justice Advocates."
Many of the risks that the licensure of attorneys guards against are at or near their apices in this context. A person without proper legal training may provide incompetent advice that prejudices a client's legal rights. Or a person with questionable moral character may proceed in a representation despite a clear conflict of interest or advise a client to make statements that mislead the court. Ensuring that anyone providing formal advice on how to complete an Answer Form is "trained, examined and licensed" clearly advances the State's interests in avoiding those risks.
Plaintiffs suggest that the UPL Rules do not advance the state's interests as applied to them because Justice Advocates would give "reliable, truthful, and non-misleading" advice. But those allegations—perhaps more properly "predictions"—are "beside the point." The question is whether the UPL Rules further the state's interests as applied to "the general circumstances of [plaintiffs'] acts," not as applied to plaintiffs' "individual case." Here, those general circumstances are the giving of legal advice, in an organized setting, to New Yorkers actively being sued. The licensing requirement directly advances the state's stated goals when "considering all the varied groups" that may seek to engage in that type of speech….
[T]he UPL Rules, as applied, are narrowly tailored as a matter of law. To start, the UPL Rules restrict only the giving of legal advice to a specific person about that person's individual legal problems.
New York does not prohibit plaintiffs (or anyone else) from speaking publicly about legal issues, including through the publication of self-help materials. Plaintiffs would be free to post their Training Guide online or distribute it as a pamphlet, complete with all the same advice as to when each defense on the Answer Form should be raised. They would be free also to publicly decry the high rate of default judgments in debt-collection cases and to push for whatever policy reforms they deem necessary. The only thing plaintiffs cannot do is advise a specific person about his or her individual case—the circumstances in which incompetent and unscrupulous legal advice is most likely to be relied upon and thereby cause harm….
After substantially narrowing their scope by definition, the UPL Rules impose a restriction on speech rather than an outright prohibition. Anyone can give legal advice to individual clients so long as they obtain a license. To obtain such a license, a person must satisfy educational, testing, and character requirements that are tailored to the state's interests in avoiding ignorant, incompetent, and unethical conduct.
New York does not need to take plaintiffs' word when they say that Justice Advocates will provide only "truthful and non-misleading advice" …. Further demonstrating that New York carefully has considered the need to balance competing interests in this area, Justice Advocates could qualify for an exemption from the licensing requirement by completing only two semesters of law school and finding an approved, lawyer-run program to supervise them.
The only remaining issue is plaintiffs' contention that the licensing requirements are too burdensome as applied to them. As Judge Crotty's thoughtful opinion noted, there is no doubt that New York could "impose targeted trainings or educational standards on Plaintiffs short of a full Bar certification." And the complaint alleges that some states and federal agencies permit non-lawyers to perform certain legal work. Such alternatives might demonstrate that the UPL Rules are not the least restrictive means of addressing the state's interests.
But this Court is applying intermediate, not strict, scrutiny. It may not strike down the UPL Rules "simply because [it] concludes that the government's interest could be adequately served by some less-speech-restrictive alternative." Rather, because the UPL Rules are substantially related to advancing the state's legitimate interests, the Court must defer to New York's reasonable decision about "how much protection of [those interests] is wise and how that level of [protection] is to be attained." Accordingly, "[t]hose alternatives do not alter [the Court's] tailoring analysis."
The UPL Rules are narrowly tailored for the reasons just explained. They apply only to individualized legal advice, leaving much law-related speech unregulated, and they prohibit a person from speaking only until he or she has obtained sufficient training in the law, permitting anyone willing to satisfy those requirements free to speak as he or she wishes.
For those reasons, and as applied to the type of speech in which plaintiffs seek to engage, the UPL Rules advance the state's content-neutral interests without burdening a substantial amount of speech that is unlikely to bring about the evils against which the rules are directed. Beyond that, the Court cannot second-guess the New York Legislature's reasoned, policy-laden decision as to how much training and experience is enough training and experience—a decision that goes merely to "how much protection of [the government's interests] is wise."
Plaintiffs' misplaced reliance on McCullen v. Coakley underscores that conclusion. There, Massachusetts had enacted a law that prohibited essentially all speech within a 35-foot radius of any abortion clinic during business hours. After reciting various alternatives that would have "burden[ed] substantially less speech" and that appeared readily capable of furthering the government's interests, such as laws targeted at harassment and obstruction, the Court held the law was not narrowly tailored.
The difference between a blanket prohibition on speech near abortion clinics and a law prohibiting only harassing or obstructive conduct near abortion clinics, is not the same as the difference between imposing some educational, testing, and fitness requirements and imposing less educational, testing, and fitness requirements. A ban on any speech within a geographic area unquestionably "suppress[es] a great quantity of speech that does not cause the evils that [the ban] seeks to eliminate." An alternative that bans only harassment would substantially narrow that overbroad scope.
In contrast, New York's law requiring a license to give one-on-one legal advice will advance the state's interests in a substantial number of its applications to speech like the AJM. Tweaking the prerequisites for licensure would not substantially alter the amount of speech burdened by the law. No amount of extrinsic evidence could demonstrate that obtaining a law degree, passing standardized tests and a course on New York law, and demonstrating one's character and fitness to practice law are requirements so unreasonably burdensome that the state has exceeded the "latitude" it enjoys to "design regulatory solutions to address content-neutral interests." …
Matthew J. Lawson (Assistant AG) represents the state.
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Realistically...these provisions are designed to protect the monopoly that "lawyers" have on legal advice, the essential monopoly the rich have on the legal system, and lock poor people out of the law.
What is the actual issue here? A non-profit providing free legal advice about debt collection lawsuits. These people are poor. They can't afford lawyers. There are laws designed to protect them, but they cannot take advantage of those laws because they do not know about them. And people who are literally willing to give away this advice for free are being told it's illegal.
It acts as a trap. The rich debt collection people can afford the lawyers. The poor people cannot. They cannot even be given advice about the laws. The system acts as a trap to ensure the poor cannot benefit from the legal system.
The moralizing about "potential bad advice" hides the fact that right now there is "no" advice.
My first reaction was the tremendous conflict of interest, a lawyer-turned-judge protecting his fellow lawyers from competition. The natural rejoinder is to change it at the ballot box.
But the lawyers control the game, and I don't doubt they would find plenty of ways to prohibit any such ballot initiative in the first place, to swamp the media with apocalyptic scare stories before the election, and to knock it down if it did pass.
People can waste a fortune on auto repairs, even without crooks and charlatans. There are state laws which don't do much good; it all comes down to reputations and word-of-mouth once the warranty period is over and owners are free to choose. I wonder if this judge and his brethren lawyers and politicians realize that laws and rulings like this single out lawyers as being especially dangerous to the public. Probably not the message they want, but the public already knows it.
Quite a few other professions are regulated: medicine, investing, accounting, architecture, etc. I never inferred that the practitioners of those fields are especially dangerous.
No other profession is regulated to this degree, in an entirely self-contained manner. No other profession gets to interact with you even if you don't WANT their service, either. Well, not unless this profession gives them permission...
For instance, the practice of medicine is regulated, but pharmacies are full of OTC medications, people treat minor wounds and illnesses themselves.
It doesn't seem to me these distinctions hold up all that well. To get a building permit for most structures, one must use a licensed architect. To obtain prescription medicine, one must visit a licensed doctor, and so on.
Any litigant has a constitutional right to represent him or herself in court. Likewise, anyone is free to sign a contract or other legal document without having a lawyer review it.
The unauthorized practice of law rules are basically a formalized means of protecting against fraud and incompetence. Similar safeguards are all over the place in other fields. While I agree that enforcement is sometimes overzealous, I don't think there's much evidence that its a protectionist racket designed to funnel money into lawyers' pockets.
"I don't think there's much evidence that its a protectionist racket designed to funnel money into lawyers' pockets."
You'd have to look into the heart of the drafters to know intent, but don't such restrictions have dual effects (keeping out charlatans, while also keeping out those who are uncredentialed but competent)?
If you want to build a house in some novel way - a hay bale house perhaps - you (in many jurisdictions) have to get a PE to sign off on the plans. If you want to write software for autonomous cars or airliner avionics, just have at it, no credentials required. We're pretty arbitrary about when we require credentials.
I've done extensive wiring in my house, that passed inspection (in fact, the inspector complimented the work ... I wasn't under the time and $$$ constraints a professional electrician has). That's legal for homeowners in my jurisdiction, but not in all jurisdictions. And most places won't let me (legally) as much as swap a light switch in anyone else's house, even for free, even if inspected.
You can argue about the costs and benefits of all of these - maybe programmers of reactor control systems ought to have some sort of credential requirements. Credentialing can have the benefit of keeping out the incompetent, but only at the cost of also excluding at least some who are competent but uncredentialed.
You're missing the point, Comment. You might need a permit but only if you're building something. You might need a doctor but only if you want a prescription med. You can, however, be forced to interact with lawyers and judges (who are more lawyers) regardless of your choices of actions or inactions merely by being accused of wrongdoing. While there are some legal interactions you can avoid or opt out of, it is not possible to opt out of all of them. That remains fundamentally untrue of other regulated professions.
I will agree that the stated intent of the 'unauthorized practice of law' rules is to protect from fraud and incompetence. I disagree that it is either effective (see the many articles here demonstrating lawyer incompetence) or the actual justification. The evidence suggests to me that it is a mere pretext for old-fashioned guild protectionism. Note for example that in the scenario described by this very article, many other states do NOT constrain this activity as 'practice of law' and see none of the 'parade of horribles' used as a justification here.
"protect the monopoly that "lawyers" have on legal advice"
Its good to be the king!
But this is present in any system of regulation. It is ostensibly to protect the public from people who are unqualified in the area of law, medicine, engineering, etc.
Should the poor get objectively bad advice because they can't afford the real thing? This isn't a thing that is unique to lawyers trying to protect their own.
"Should the poor get objectively bad advice because they can't afford the real thing?"
Should the poor be forbidden to buy Hondas because they can't afford Acuras?
There's a threshold issue here; it's not just a continuum of quality. Below some level it's a scam at best and could screw people our of their rights.
I don't think this holds true for all professions - the threshold for hairdressers in this era of hygiene is low enough mandatory licensing loses it's cost/benefit.
I dunno. You've never encountered an auto mechanic who was out-and-out scamming people? You must have read about really incompetently done software causing big problems - even deaths.
Moreover, I don't think 'some non-lawyers might give totally bogus legal advice' refutes 'other non-lawyers might give competent legal advice that is a good value'. Especially in some narrow field - the case in the OP is about the narrow field of defending debt collection lawsuits. Is it unthinkable a non-lawyer specializing in that might know that area of the law as well or better than a lawyer who never dabbled in that specific area of practice? Enough to provide good value to a customer? Yet it's legal (if unwise and probably unethical) for the lawyer to give advice outside his expertise, but illegal for someone else to give advice within an area they know well.
Overpaying scams are not the same as underserving scams, for threshold analysis purposes.
There are people in my office who are 100% better lawyers in a specific area than I am. I'm not arguing that the mandatory licensing regime is costless; but the benefit of avoiding the structural failures is quite high. [We can discuss why our system has so many traps for the unwary built into it, but that's another area.]
I'd analogize it to a contractor - some overcharge; and so be it. And there are folks who could probably DIY parts of the job. They're licensed because if you do a bad enough job, it's nigh existential for the client.
The surgeon doing robotic surgery needs years of training. The guy who codes the software running the robot can be a 14 year old in his basement. A 20 ft long rural bridge needs a PE to stamp the design, but the guys designing a 747 wing don't need any certifications at all[1]. The guys doing the fly-by-wire avionics for the 787 can legally be 14 year olds (but thankfully aren't!).
We might be better off - or not - by licensing 'software engineers'[2]. Maybe we'd read about fewer hacking incidents, not to mention more 'existential' problems. People have been killed by software errors in medical devices, planes, and cars. Personally, getting killed by bad software seems as consequential as a badly drafted real estate contract.
We have a strong bias towards the status quo. I have met folks from NJ and OR that are aghast at the idea of self serve gas pumps, and a visitor from IIRC Chicago that was horrified at the prospect of Romex wiring. But 'we have always done it this way' means ... you haven't tried the alternatives to see whether they provide a better cost/benefit ratio.
[1]I think!
[2]one of my job titles over the years ... which is pretty common even though it gives the vapors to PEs
I think you make a very good argument for a profession-by-profession determination.
The way that we value deaths is deeply psychological and has an attenuated relationship with a purely utilitarian impact. Otherwise we'd spend a lot more on car safety and a lot less on anti-terrorism measures.
So it is in the end a values judgement who gets licensed and who doesn't; my purely analytical frame above was a bit facile. We do hold access to the courts pretty highly.
Self-serve gas pumps are another interesting values-over-productivity choice. I think the idea that productivity is the be-all is overdone in America, putting it in tension with other values from liberty to maximizing employment to civic buy-in and other suchlike.
The non-profit could ask lawyers to volunteer.
These statements cannot be reconciled with each other. We are literally looking at what topic is being discussed and the message expressed to determine whether the speech is restricted. The judge here had to follow the appeals court's ruling, but that ruling was clearly wrong.
That's what I was going to say: It is literally impossible to determine if somebody is giving legal advice without looking at the content of their speech.
Indeed. IANAL and so am not trained to look past the obvious. Only a lawyer could fail to spot that if the advice given was about baking a cake, it would not be covered.
Still, as Davy says, presumably the judge in this case is simply following a precedent, since the 2nd Circuit is mentioned. So let's not hang ALL the lawyers, at least not yet. Let's start with the 2nd Circuit.
Well, that sort of drives the "content" argument into the ground. You can't determine if the speech is libelous, obscene or threatening without looking at the content either.
But there you're talking about traditional exceptions to the otherwise absolute rule. Similar to the Bruen history and tradition test, libel law survives constitutional scrutiny because in the era the 1st amendment was adopted it wasn't considered a violation.
Did the founding era have restrictions on medical advice analogous to libel law? No, as far as I'm aware in the founding era there wasn't such a thing as occupational licensing. The closest you got was having to be a member of the bar to represent somebody in court. Outside the courtroom it was a free market.
Likewise, the founding era lacked any "professional speech" or "commercial speech" exceptions to freedom of speech.
So, these are all rather ungrounded compared to libel, obscenity, and incitement/threat.
New York has a "well-established interest in regulating attorney conduct and in maintaining ethical behavior and independence among the members of the legal profession."
Letitia James has entered the chat.
When the call is re-opened, also, don't invite alvin bragg, kathy hochul, andrew cuomo, the majority of the NYS assembly and senate, NYS unified courts, arthur engoron, juan manuel merchan (his daughter), abena darkeh, ... just off the cuff reaction.
So New York is against undocumented legal advisers?
The excerpt notes that the group "wishes to train non-lawyers like the Rev. John Udo-Okon to provide free legal advice."
The regulation doesn't stop all information from being supplied. For instance:
New York does not prohibit plaintiffs (or anyone else) from speaking publicly about legal issues, including through the publication of self-help materials. Plaintiffs would be free to post their Training Guide online or distribute it as a pamphlet, complete with all the same advice as to when each defense on the Answer Form should be raised.
Anyone who doubts the perils of relying on dilettantes, who dabble in the law but answer to no one, for advice in legal matters should spend some time reading the comment threads on this blog.
Part of a lawyer's exercise of professional judgment involves knowing which problems of a prospective client should be referred to a colleague with different expertise.
As a wise non-lawyer, Samuel Clemens, (may have) remarked under his pen name Mark Twain, “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
That's really irrelevant, isn't it? The Bill of Rights is a guarantee of freedom, not of freedom from the availability of foolish choices.
I can certainly understand a rabid libertarian advocating for the advice to hire anyone they please to treat their illnesses, design their buildings, etc. But that doesn't seem particularly relevant to a court deciding cases, since the legal system of the United States was not designed by rabid libertarians, nor do the majority of citizens want it to be.
But the legal system IS designed around a Bill of Rights which says, among other things, that Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;"
And the 14th amendment was adopted to extend that to the states, so the legislature of NY can make no law abridging freedom of speech, or of the press.
So, like it or not, the legal system of the United States is not supposed to be permitting laws like this.
Now, it's going to permit them anyway, because the legal system is run by lawyers, and the lawyers are running the only still functioning guild system in the modern world, and they're not about to let the job they swore to do get in the way of preserving their monopoly.
But nobody else is obligated to not notice what they're doing.
If someone comes up starving, and you hand them a piece of bread....should that piece of bread be slapped out of their hand?
Should you be arrested for providing free bread to the needy without the proper licenses? Because you haven't spent the necessary $200,000 and 3 years worth of training to become a proper baker?
Arm,
I think a better analogy is: Someone starving comes up to you, and you hook them up to an IV and give them IV nutrients, in an effort to prevent malnutrition, starving, etc.. Is it a good thing, in the abstract, that you are helping a starving person? (Of course so!) But, does a state have a legitimate interest in saying, "We will not permit Person X to insert a needle into Person Y's arm and do an IV feeding, unless X has passed whatever training is necessary (in the state's view) to do an IV procedure." I think a lot of people would again say, "Of course so!"
It probably follows from the above that if you (Person X) go ahead and try to do IVs without the required training, you are potentially liable for criminal charges, and almost certainly liable civilly, if something were to go wrong when you gave Y the IV.
Now, obviously, people of good faith can argue about how much training X really needs, in order to safely and professionally do this IV treatment. But that's a distinctly different issue from: Can the state impose any requirements at all? (You can tell that I, a lawyer, see the process of giving legal advice as *conduct*, in additional to the obvious speech component.)
The analogy with medicine is apt... except these people aren't going into court and representing people. They're talking. They're *only* talking. It's like saying you can't give individualized advice to someone on how to insert that IV into their own arm. But you can make a generalized pamphlet telling them how to do it.
Anecdote FWIW: my father's second career was investigating wage and hour complaints for the US DoL. As a result, he had that particular area of the law down cold. From time to time he'd be out visiting Acme Inc, and the owner would tell him "You'll be hearing from my lawyer". Dad would say "great!" and leave a business card. In due course Dad's phone would ring and a general purpose business law lawyer would be on the line. Dad would explain his (the government's) view of the law, complete with the relevant case cites, which Dad could quote from memory. In due course there would be a meeting with the business owner, the lawyer, and Dad, where the lawyer would explain that he had researched the law and ... Dad was right.
It's not that Dad was Clarence Darrow Jr., it's just that "the law" is a big subject, and a reasonably intelligent layman may well know some small section of it pretty well. I mean, how much do you know about how a vertical forward grip affects the legality of a gun?
Despite that, if Dad had retired from the DoL and offered legal expertise on labor law, he'd have been breaking the law. Likewise, my wife cut my hair for years - but if she offered to cut yours for $5, she's breaking the law.
Or speaking of medicine, I read an article some years ago where someone in Canada set up a hernia repair place. In the US you get a hernia repaired by a general purpose surgeon, who removes a gall bladder today, an appendix tomorrow, a bowel resection the next day, and a hernia a couple times a month. The place in Canada had a bunch of non-physicians ... this guy did initial incisions all day, the next person did step 2 all day, etc, through the 8 steps. These folks were, I dunno, seamstresses/tailors, not physicians who could tell you the names of the cranial nerves[1] or talk about liver biochemistry. But they had a lot better success rate on hernias than the usual US rate.
It's easy to outline the horrors of unlicensed barbering (impetigo! scabies!), and those are indeed risks. But I'm not sure that we should outlaw people from doing unlicensed barbering, as long as they aren't misleading people about what certifications they have.
(I think there are exceptions where the risk isn't to the client ... if Joe's Trucking hires incompetent 18 wheeler drivers, more than Joe's cargo is at risk. But if I hire someone totally incompetent to draft my will, the loss is mine, not yours.)
[1]Oh, Oh, To Touch And Feel A Girl's Vagina
Don't you say a word
Or reveal a thing you've learned
Time will tell you well
If you truly, truly fell
Tarred and feathered, yea!
Thistled and thorned,
One or the other
He kindly warned
"But if I hire someone totally incompetent to draft my will, the loss is mine, not yours.)"
Technically, the loss is your intended beneficiaries', not yours.
'Cause you're dead at the point where the loss occurs.
Santa,
The required training to put an IV in someone's arm is a 40 hour course. 40 hours. Moreover, in an emergency, this is often waived. Or it's easily accessible with on the job training or during the course of other employment.
The legal restrictions on the other hand are absurd. You can be a paralegal for 20 years, dealing with the law on a regular basis for years. But offer someone the tiniest bit of legal advice, unpaid, on how they should fill out a request...and the courts will say it's illegal.
This is a poor argument. It's also very similar to the CCCP reason for controlling religious organizations. You can legally proselytize (in private) if you have the appropriate license because they want to make sure the religious beliefs are "correct".
"Anyone who doubts the perils of relying on dilettantes, who dabble in the law but answer to no one, for advice in legal matters should spend some time reading the comment threads on this blog."
You're referring to all the people without law licenses spouting off about the law?
"You're referring to all the people without law licenses spouting off about the law?"
By George, I think [he's] got it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSPwexlyTo
Exceptionally well played.
I'm pretty sure not guilty is a lawyer, as he/she/it often posts stuff thick with legal references. But I'm also pretty sure he etc is a bit of a lefty.
Which causes him to struggle mightily with the distinction between
(a) what the law says and
(b) whether what the law says is a good thing
The "perils" of relying on dodgy advice have the square root of diddley squat to do with whether a law banning unlicensed folks from speaking to other folk about a particular subject, but not about other subjects, is a law based on the content of the speech. You do not need to know anything at all about the law to deduce the answer to this, it's just a matter of understanding English. Which plenty of non-lawyers can do.
I am retired after 28 years of practicing law. The status of my license is disability inactive. I have never sought reinstatement to active status, because I have no need to do so.
The observations I offer on these comment threads does not constitute the practice of law. I write from the perspective of a partisan, liberal Democrat -- a status which long preceded my legal practice. No one should rely upon what I say here regarding an actual legal controversy.
With due respect for the courts who have weighed in on the question, I would conclude that state restrictions on the unlicensed practice of law are indeed content based and should be subject to strict scrutiny analysis. The state has a compelling interest in ensuring that the information conveyed by those who hold themselves out as licensed professionals is accurate, informed and subject to professional accountability to licensing authorities.
There may in some circumstances be a less restrictive means available to accomplish that objective. For example, a prisoner's fundamental right of access to the courts is sufficient to entitle him to the assistance of a "jailhouse lawyer," even though the latter may be unlicensed to practice law. Johnson v. Avery, 393 U.S. 483 (1969). These exceptions, however, are few and sharply circumscribed, and are beyond the scope of the instant plaintiffs' as applied challenge.
A very sensible response. I apologise for the mild taint of snark that may have snuck into my own comment.
Dr. Ed, Commenter_XY, Bumble and Joe Dallas, PC ?
" ... whether a law banning unlicensed folks from speaking to other folk about a particular subject, but not about other subjects, is a law based on the content of the speech. You do not need to know anything at all about the law to deduce the answer to this." Lee Moore, agreed. I do not know the recent case law. As JoefromTheBronx notes, guides are flourishing on-line, and in many languages; for example, LL/Tenant resources are readily available, and tend to serve a less than well-off population.
I think that particular constituency is probably more deserving of legal resources/protections than debtors.
Yes, sorry for wandering off the topic a bit.
A couple of things:
- There is a well-established habit in the US of turning everything into a First Amendment problem, because the First Amendment is the biggest stick to hit the government with. It is not obvious to me that this would be a free speech issue in a sensible legal order. It's a regulation of a service that inevitably involves talking, just like therapists and doctors.
- A lot of this mess would be solved if the US followed other countries' approach of strictly regulating advocacy in court, keeping the number of people who are admitted to the bar down to a low number, and having a wider group of professional legal advisers who advise on the law but don't go to court. The public interest in regulating the latter seems much weaker to me than the public interest in regulating what happens in court.
You're right that everybody tries to shoehorn their rights claims into the 1st amendment, because it's the only one in the Bill of Rights the courts take seriously.
But from an originalist perspective, they're right to do so for occupational speech. There's not really any historical basis for commercial or professional speech as a 1st amendment exception, that sort of thing made an appearance fairly late in the game.
Also from a logical perspective. What Martinned suggests is that a sensible legal system should pretend that providing a service that consists of nothing but talking ….. is not speech.
Since this would be a denial of reality it’s doubtful that it could reasonably be described as sensible. The sensible and logical approach, if we wanted the law to ban non lawyers from giving legal advice would be to create an exception - “speech about X is not included.”
But since that’s not what 1A says, seeing speech as speech is not a case of turning this into a 1A issue. It is such a case by virtue of being about speech. Which is not to say that there aren’t other attempts to shoehorn unlikely cases into a 1A argument, it’s just that this isn’t one of them.
The idea of having two or more tiers of legal professionals, like the multiple tiers of medical professionals that currently exist, is probably a good one but has been resisted by lawyers, who have quite an influence on legislators. Nurse Practitioners and Physicians’ Assistants have gradually acquired the right to do many things only doctors once could do. But there is currently no recognized legal profession at all other than lawyer. Paralegal, for example, is not a licensed profession with its own degree programs and licensing requirements. It’s just a job title meaning a clerical assistant to a lawyer.
It came up in the open thread the other day. Because of the public interest in effective advocacy, Dutch lawyers have to apprentice for three years, and take all sorts of exams, before they are admitted to the bar. That naturally discourages legal people like me, who are not interested in litigating, from seeking to become a lawyer.
But yes, regulatory capture is always a problem.
I think the Court was wrong to have abolished the professional speech category. It’s a distinct sui generis category different from both commercial and ordinary speech. And attempting to stretch the remaining categories to fit it makes for a Procrustean bed. As Abraham Lincoln put it, just because you call a tail a leg doesn’t make it so.
The argument ag'in is you might be harmed by substandard legal advice.
Odd these same people do not make that argument when inhaling doctors, nurses, and software engineers hand over fist from overseas.
"Oh, medical has to prove themselves to US standards!" these same people say, as they forbid anything similar in law, whose harm is less than injury or death, which medical or software goof can cause, and the injury in law is mostly when under attack by law.
When AI stomps this industry flat there will be such rejoicing and to anyone who thinks that will not happen before 2030 you are in for one heck of a surprise.