Open Thread

What’s on your mind?

Comments

[Dr. Ed 2]

History may not repeat, but it sure does rhyme:
https://www.amherstindy.org/2026/02/06/western-mass-resistance-calendar-and-supplemental-reading-list-16/

As if Jan 6th wasn’t bad enough, now it’s going to be A WHOLE WEEK ending on March 6th. And when de-facto martial law is finally declared, as it was on the evening of Jan 6th, what happens the next morning?

It’s the exact same thing as Jan 6th, only coming from the left.

[Frank Drackman]

Shortly after Kent State there was a "Hard Hat Riot" in Manhattan with hundreds of Archie Bunkers wading into a crowd of protesting Hippies and beating the (Redacted) out of them.
Not sure if I was "mis-remembering" it (HT "W") so here's the Wikipedia:
"The Hard Hat Riot occurred in New York City on May 8, 1970, when around 400 construction workers and around 800 office workers attacked around 1,000 demonstrators affiliated with the student strike of 1970. The students were protesting the May 4 Kent State shootings and the Vietnam War, following the April 30 announcement by President Richard Nixon of the US invasion of neutral Cambodia. Some construction workers carried US flags and chanted "USA all the way" and "America, love it or leave it". Anti-war protesters shouted "Peace now".
Wow, I had forgotten about the Office Workers, who outnumbered the Hardhats, but the "Office Worker Riot" doesn't sound as good.
But wait, it gets even better.

The riot, first breaking out near the intersection of Wall Street and Broad Street in Lower Manhattan, led to a mob scene with more than 20,000 people in the streets, eventually leading to a siege of New York City Hall, an attack on the conservative Pace University and lasted more than three hours. Around 100 people, including seven policemen, were injured on what became known as Bloody Friday. Six people were arrested, but only one of them was a construction worker associated with the rioters Nixon invited the hardhat leaders to Washington, D.C., and accepted a hardhat from them.

Bunch of dirty Hippies. Probably smoking the Marriage-a-Juan-a Cigarettes and disrespecting Amurica.

Frank

[Sylvie1]

Mr. Drackman, I am a fellow Trump supporter, and loathe all riots no matter the reason, but I can assure you that marijuana disinclines the imbiber to violence. It's a quite peaceful intoxicant, a euphoric, and euphoria is a state from which violent behavior is a most unlikely result.

[Frank Drackman]

Lack the Sarcasm-Recognition Gene? I certainly know the effects of the Herb, (I'm a Sativa man) I was being Sarcastic, like Charlie Daniels in "Uneasy Rider"
"I said would you believe this man has gone as far
as tearin' Wallace stickers off the bumpers of cars
and he voted for George McGoveren for president
well he's a friend of them long-haired hippie type pinko fags
I betcha he's even got a Commie flag
Tacked up on the wall inside of his garage
he's a snake in the grass I tell ya guys
he may look dumb but that's jus a disguise
he's a mastermind in the ways of espionage"

[Bwaaah]

Nice.

Any self-respecting hippie protestor would've been smoking weed. And in those days, any self-respecting construction worker would've had a beer or six for lunch. And in the words of Mike Tyson, "Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

[Dr. Ed 2]

I actually remember when one maybe two beers for lunch was considered acceptable during the working day, i.e. going back to work after lunch. This included driving vehicles and operating equipment.

The shift between beer and marijuana being socially acceptable. It’s quite interesting if you think about it.

[Frank Drackman]

I’ve been enjoying the Herb for nearly 50 years and I turned out just fine.

[Dr. Ed 2]

From what I have seen in the psych literature, marijuana not only causes schizophrenia in young people but also causes aggressive outbursts.

Remember Ferguson?
I was convinced he had to have been on PCP or something else, with the toxicology says only marijuana. And there have been other incidents of unexplained aggression, where the tox scan came back with only marijuana.

Bear in mind the genetically engineered marijuana of today is the Bacardi 151 strength where are many are familiar with a beer strength marijuana of the 80s.

16 or 32 ounces of beer at lunch is one thing, same volume of Bacardi 151 is something else entirely!

[Kazinski]

Well there is this:
"The word assassin comes from the Medieval Latin word assassinus, which in turn traces back to the Arabic word ḥashshāshīn, plural of ḥashshāsh, which means “worthless person,” or, literally, “hashish user,” since the ultimate root of this word was hashīsh."
- Merriam Webster

[SRG2]

It’s the exact same thing as Jan 6th, only coming from the left.

Er, nope.

[David Nieporent]

"De facto martial law" is gibberish; there is no such thing in federal law as "declaring martial law," and none was on the evening of January 6 or any other time.

And I don't have any idea what in that link you are even referring to.

[Magister]

Dr. Ed 2's rhyming history is pretty much "Women are whores / We'll get civil wars."

[Frank Drackman]

I think it was Santayana who said the Gates of Hell were between a woman’s legs.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Exactly what do you call this?
https://mayor.dc.gov/release/mayor-bowser-orders-citywide-curfew-beginning-6pm-today

[David Nieporent]

I exactly call that a curfew, exactly. Where in that press release do you see anything about courts being shut down and people being tried by military tribunal?

[Dr. Ed 2]

If people can be tried for violating fiat, does it really matter who does the trying?

This is a suspension of civil rights, and that is my definition of martial law. You may have a definition where the police wear pink petticoats, but I think the rational person would define suspension of civil rights, i.e., the right to travel, martial law.

[David Nieporent]

If people can be tried for violating fiat, does it really matter who does the trying?

It absolutely matters who does the trying, yes. (And if there's any trial at all, for that matter.)

This is a suspension of civil rights, and that is my definition of martial law.

You don't get your own definitions of words. The word "martial" is in the phrase "martial law" for a reason.

Also, the mayor did not suspend the right to travel in that order.

[bernard11]

What if they violate Alfa Romeo instead?

Personally my preference would be to violate Ferrari, but Alfa is acceptable.

[WarrenOGHarding]

Even as a conservative, I'm cheered by the apparent sociability of these "protest" events.

See SATURDAY February 7: Home Depot in Hadley – Say NO to ICE.
After an hour(which isn't too long) of standing by the road with signs, they'll "adjourn to Panera for lunch!"

I love Panera!

Also apparently the event gets cancelled if the weather is too cold.

If only Republicans had such tasty, convenient, humanitarian efforts...

[John F. Carr]

The No Kings protests were both focused and well behaved. The anti-ICE protests, not so well behaved. The 2020 protests, even less so.

[WarrenOGHarding]

One is young liberal twats and the other is retirees coming out of their New England cabins.

I remember a recent trip up to New Hampshire with a friend of mine: the golden sun on the trees, the glacial mountains, and the 60-somethings draping banners over the overpasses.

No wonder the Right hates cities.

[Dr. Ed 2]

The one that caught my attention was labeled February 28 and involved a planned weeklong protest in DC through March 5 and 6.

The language I see advocating that is the same language I saw advocating the January 6 incident, the only difference being this comes from the left rather than the right, which means it’s DDDifferent….

[David Nieporent]

For the record, there is no entry labeled February 28 that involved a planned weeklong protest in DC through March 5 and 6.

[Magister]

Well, it is true that there is plenty of disinformation spread by right-wing sources for January 6th 2021 and recent anti-Trump protests; but for the insurrection it was about increasing attendance and violence while for anti-ICE, No Kings and other protests against the authoritarian Trump regime it's been to dissuade and intimidate attendees.

[Lee Moore]

https://www.healthandme.com/health-wellness/what-is-dsd-rare-biological-condition-behind-imane-khelifs-olympic-boxing-controversy-explained-article-151070355

Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif, who won the gold medal in the women's 66kg boxing category at the 2024 Paris Olympics, has found herself in the middle of a gender-related debate. Reports accessed by French journalist Djaffar Ait Aoudia, as published in Reduxx, brought to light medical findings about Khelif's biological status, revealing that Khelif has "testicles" and an XY chromosome arrangement, thus confirming as 'biologically male'.
According to this report, Khelif has a medical condition known as 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), a rare difference in sex development (DSD). Medical documents, allegedly from collaborations between France’s Kremlin-Bicêtre Hospital and Algeria’s Mohamed Lamine Debaghine Hospital, were reportedly compiled in June 2023. These reports outline that Khelif has internal testes and other characteristics atypical for female development.
An MRI and chromosomal tests confirmed the absence of a uterus and the presence of internal male reproductive organs. Furthermore, her testosterone levels were consistent with typical male ranges.

Who’da thunk it ?

Er, me actually.

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/08/08/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-the-paris-2024-controversy-explained/?comments=true#comment-10678414

moi : These guys (the boxers) are not an “outgroup.” They’re just men. Reality is staring you in the face, but you are determined to keep your eyes tight shut. It is that they’re men, and they have the natural athletic advantages derived from being men.

moi : These boxers were almost certainly "assigned female at birth" despite actually being male. They almost certainly suffer - like Caster Semanya - from a DSD like 5-ARD which occurs in males, and which wholly or partly feminizes the genitals. But in biological reality they are plainly males because they have testes (probably undescended) which make sperm not eggs, testosterone, which masculinizes the phenotype (except the genitals) - hence their masculine physiques, and anti-Mullerian hormone which destroys the Mullerian structures - fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix etc.

moi : Nope. Bayes Theorem is your friend here.
If the boxers had XX karotype, we would have been told. Since we haven't been told, we can conclude with high confidence that they have XY karotype. And since roughly 99,999 out of every 100,000 people with XY karotype have testes (or used to have them) we can conclude with high confidence that these boxers have (or had) testes, and are therefore men.
We did this dance for 10 years with Caster Semenya.
"He's obviously a guy"
"No, we don't know !"
"Just look at his build, you can't get that build without testes"
"No, we don't know !"
And after ten years of this nonsense, with a good hatful of medals pocketed, it's "OK, yeah, "she" has got testes. But, er...it's time to move on."

Aaaand ….. it’s time to move on.

[Malika la Maize]

“They’re just men.”

“wholly or partly feminizes the genitalia…they have testes (probably undescended)”

“Just” is doing a lot of work there.

[Brett Bellmore]

Not really; They're men, as defined in biology. Just men with a syndrome that makes them look a bit like women if you don't do a thorough examination.

[Malika la Maize]

A man with female genitalia, doesn’t have masculine traits in puberty, etc., is not “just” a man, it’s someone *quite* different than most guys.

[Mr. Bumble]

...but of course he doesn't have female genitalia.

[Malika la Maize]

“which wholly or partly feminizes the genitals”

[Frank Drackman]

Feminized his genitals so much he's got a Dick.

[Mr. Bumble]

So he has a small dick and no ball sacks.

[jb]

Not familiar with the meaning of the word "wholly", I see.

[Joe_dallas]

Bumble correctly described the facts. "Wholly" is the word Malika used in his wrong description of the facts. Bumble's comment was more than adequate to correct malika's error.

[Magister]

More accurately, "wholly or partially" was the phrase used.

[Joe_dallas]

Magister 19 minutes ago
"More accurately, "wholly or partially" was the phrase used."

WTF - Was my explanation of Malika's and JB's error insufficient for you to grasp - or is the basic biology beyond your comprehension?

[Mr. Bumble]

@Magister
...and just what are "wholly" feminized genitals? What are "partially" feminized genitals?
Small dick (large clit), no nuts (scrotal labia with no opening)?

[Joe_dallas]

Malika la Maize 4 hours ago
"A man with female genitalia, "

Are all leftist that bad with basic biology and science or just woke leftists such as Malika?

He is a male with male genitalia, though very underdeveloped, they remain male genitalia. Extremely underdeveloped.

[Lee Moore]

A man (aka a human with testes) who is sexually attracted to other men has a secondary sexual characteristic (sexual orientation) which is typical of females. That doesn’t make him female. Not 10% female. Not 1% female. He’s just a man, who finds other men sexually attractive.

[Josh R]

I fully agree that Khelif is a man as far as Olympic boxing is concerned. But, if Khelif was labeled a girl at birth, raised as a girl, and identifies as a woman, then she is a woman in most other contexts.

[SRG2]

That should of course be the widely-accepted and uncontroversial position.

[Frank Drackman]

The old “Common Sense” argument, what I support is just “Common Sense” and if you disagree you lack Common Sense.
I think it’s “Common Sense” that Illegal Aliens who commit Violent Crimes should be summarily executed and their Corpses hung at the Border as a warning.
Of course the “Accepted” Common Sense is its worth a few million Laken Rileys as long as I get my cheap Lawn guy.

[Lee Moore]

But we now know that “she” was labelled a girl at birth …. by mistake. An understandable and forgivable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

Now “she” has had it explained to “her” that “she” is in fact male, it may come as a shock*, and “she” may wish to continue presenting “herself” as a woman. But she is not a woman, in fact.

I concede, before you complain again, that I am using “woman” to mean “adult female human” consistent with its uncontested meaning for the last 1,000 years or so, ever since English was a language, until the last 10 to 15 years, during which a fairly small minority of English speakers have decided to use it to refer to a different concept which they find difficult to specify.Which they’re quite entitled to do, of course.

*whether it does come as a shock we don’t know. Caster Semanya who has the same DSD lived as a boy in his teens and only reverted to girlhood when he started serious athletics.

[Josh R]

The historical uncontested meaning is because 1) sex and gender identity match in 99.9% of the cases and 2) the concept of gender identity is only about 60 years old (not 10 or 15).

[Life of Brian]

In fairness, we might distinguish between the ~60 year old fringe academic theory and the 10-15 year old societal splash via Bruce Jenner et al.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"But we now know that “she” was labelled a girl at birth …. by mistake."

What part of the definition allows for a mistake? They are very adamant about the distinction between "sex" and "sex assigned at birth".

Per the ideology, if the doctor holds up a baby girl and says, "It's a boy!" and kid ends up identifying as a girl (as would be expected), she's trans.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"I fully agree that Khelif is a man as far as Olympic boxing is concerned. But, if Khelif was labeled a girl at birth, raised as a girl, and identifies as a woman, then she is a woman in most other contexts."

If someone is a woman in most contexts, why shouldn't that person be a woman as far as Olympic boxing is concerned?

What some people are proposing is basically having a high-T and low-T category instead of a men's and women's category. But people want a women's category for a reason.

[Josh R]

If the Olympics wanted a low-T category, that's OK with me. But if they believe going through male puberty with high-T is an unfair advantage for those who are now low-T, it's also OK with me to exclude them.

[TwelveInchPianist]

If they're women, why is going through male puberty an unfair advantage, as opposed to just an advantage? Women come in all shapes and sizes, and some shapes and sizes are better at boxing than others.

[Josh R]

They are not women from the perspective of sports even though they are from most other perspectives. Context matters.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I'm starting to see why you guys have trouble answering the question "What is a woman."

Maybe Justice Jackson should have answered "I'm not a biologist. Or a coach."

The gymnastics you guys have to go through is shocking.

[TwelveInchPianist]

And how does terminology work under your theory?

Since they're men in the context of sports, should we refer to them as men in that context, use masculine pronouns, etc?

[Josh R]

No gymnastics are needed to recognize that "woman" could refer to sex or gender identity depending on the context.

Pronoun use is not in the context of sports. She (gender identity) was denied entry into women's boxing because "women" in "women's boxing" refers to sex.

[Joe_dallas]

Lots of gymnastics to deny you are playing gymnastics

[Frank Drackman]

That Dick would be a deal-breaker for me.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Too small?

[Frank Drackman]

The Penis is sort of a "Tell"

[Sarcastr0]

You are overegging your argument, as you do. You're saying atypical female means male.

I'd say this case shows why despite many on here claiming 'what is a woman' is super easy, threads discussing what that criteria is end up finding lots of different thoughts, even within MAGA.

Here, even if you're looking at sex not gender, genitals don't tell the story. So much for that. And there are other examples of chromosomes not telling the story.

Now, I'm not saying Khelif should be boxing as a woman - I take a functional approach and when it comes to sports it's the hormone levels that tell.
But you wouldn't use that criterion for bathroom access - that'd be logistically impossible.

I don't much care about your abuse of Bayes - the principle this illustrates is that the people claiming this is all super simple may feel that, but it doesn't pan out in the real world.

[jay.tee]

You're saying atypical female means male.

Your reading comprehension sucks, intentionally or not. Atypical male still means male.

even within MAGA.
[…]
I take a functional approach and when it comes to sports it's the hormone levels that tell

As usual, your vibes shine through.

[Sarcastr0]

I know it's a lot to read, and you're lazy and tend to just say stuff, but here's the quote: "These reports outline that Khelif has internal testes and other characteristics atypical for female development."

As usual, your vibes shine through.
Do you know what vibes means?
I made a thoughtful argument, about that *I* do. I didn't declare anything a fact with no support other than my feelings.

On the other hand, you and your compatriots are blithely saying it's so easy to define what's a woman and what's a man to even discuss it invites anger.

[jay.tee]

I made a thoughtful argument

This gets to the heart of the matter: you mistake surface-level sniping and strawmen as “thoughtful argument.” It is not. Your substitution of partisanship for basic biology is paper thin and transparent.

[Sarcastr0]

Do you know what an argument is?

You haven't made an argument yet. Just throwing out empty buzzwordy insults and foot stomping.

Are you related to joe_dallas?

[Joe_dallas]

Sardumbo - you are the one making the stupid argument. I have only pointed out how stupid your argument is. If you dont want to be called out for stating stupid shit, then quit stating stupid shit.

[Joe_dallas]

Sarcastr0 2 hours ago
"On the other hand, you and your compatriots are blithely saying it's so easy to define what's a woman and what's a man to even discuss it invites anger."

Sardumbo - It takes a serious level of stupidity to not be able to tell the difference between a man and a woman.

[Joe_dallas]

Sarcastr0 2 hours ago
"Are you related to joe_dallas?"

I would say that is a Yes - He gets basic science and biology facts correct, unlike you and the other leftists posting here. Quite frankly your error rate on basic facts are comparable to a high school drop out.

[Magister]

There's more evidence for comments by Joe_dallas and jay.tee being from the same person (including that Joe_dallas previously had a sock puppet) than there is for comments by hobie and Arthur Kirkland being from the same person. (For the record, I don't believe either to be true.)

[Joe_dallas]

Jay tee got the facts correct. Sarcastro has not gotten the basic correct on this topic.

Why not address Sarcastro's errors or do you prefer to defend you fellow cultist?

[Magister]

I'm commenting on the similarity between jay.tee and Joe_dallas; mostly, that both of them make unsupported assertions of their opinions over and over again without presenting any evidence.

Why aren't you addressing your previous sock puppetry?

[TwelveInchPianist]

"These reports outline that Khelif has internal testes and other characteristics atypical for female development."

Yes, testes are typical for male development. And he's a male.

"I take a functional approach and when it comes to sports it's the hormone levels that tell."

Yes, why have women's sports when you can just have Low-T sports.

[TwelveInchPianist]

On the other hand, you and your compatriots are blithely saying it's so easy to define what's a woman and what's a man to even discuss it invites anger.

It is easy to define. Refusal to define it betrays disingenuousness.

[Lee Moore]

Nah you’re just hand waving again. The report says he has things “atypical for female development” after it has already stated that he is “biologically male.”

They’re not saying that he’s an atypical female, they’re saying that apart from his sex defining testes he has lots of secondary sexual characteristics which are “atypical for female development” ie they are underlining that he is …. not female.

[Sarcastr0]

So just a normal vagina having male.

[Lee Moore]

So you’re with Malika then ? A gay man is not a “normal” male ? He’s kinda female ?

[Sarcastr0]

You can read my OP again if you want my position. I don’t play coy.

You pretending this is easy and obvious stuff is kind of ridiculous.

[Lee Moore]

Incidentally males with 5ARD do not have a vagina. Some just have a micro penis. Some have a vagina like pouch or opening that can be mistaken for a vagina on a cursory examination.

Nobody is suggesting that it is “normal” to have a DSD that is as rare as 5ARD. It’s just that 5ARD does not prevent you from being just a man. You’re just a man with a rare disorder.

[Sarcastr0]

So simple!

[Brett Bellmore]

Indeed, it is.

[Sarcastr0]

OK then.

Which bathroom is the right one for this person raised as a woman looking like a woman externally, but having XY chromosomes and internal testes?

[Lee Moore]

1. With his clothes on, which is how he will appear when entering the bathroom, he looks like a guy, so for the purposes of "eeek ! we don't want a guy in the laydees room" - he belongs in the mens room.
2. People with 5ARD may have a micropenis through which the urethra runs just like any other penis, so such folk can use the stand up urinal. Though as is the case with any other men who have a penis which they do not wish to expose to view, or comment, he can always use the stall.
3. Some people with 5ARD don't have a penis but instead the urethra will end with an opening in the perineum. So to pee a urinal is unsuitable. He would have to use a stall.
4. As to communal showering, he is going to look unusual whichever bathroom he uses. In the men's shower he's going to look like a guy except for an absent, or micro, penis; and absent testicles. In the women's shower he's.....still going to look like a guy except for an absent, or micro, penis; and absent testicles.

[Sarcastr0]

With his clothes on, which is how he will appear when entering the bathroom, he looks like a guy
Ah yes, the 'looks like' test. Famously determinative for all people. I'd say Khelif looks pretty ambiguous myself, but then I don't have a huge axe to grind.

You gotta know it's not simple, since you took the trouble to lay out a 4 point comment, about the specific case that itself has variations, in addition to the many other cases of ambiguous sex. AND that's without you acknowledging that sex and gender are distinct from one another.

You're undermining your case that it's easy with every post.

[Lee Moore]

The questions of whether some men should be permitted to use restrooms reserved for women, or play in sports events reserved for women, do not seem to me to be particularly difficult questions. But since they are social and cultural questions, and consequently encompass plenty of value questions, they are certainly less simple than the question we were discussing before you tried to change the subject to bathrooms and gender.

The simple questions with simplest answers are the core biological ones - how many sexes are there, and what defines which sex you have ? An animal with testes is male, one of the only two sexes available. And an animal with testes does not flip to the other sex - female - merely by virtue of having a DSD which alters the appearance of his external genitalia. And humans are animals. QED.

That was what we were discussing and the answer is simple. The boxer is a man as I told you two years ago in the thread I linked to. At the time you were quite exercised to deny the guy was a guy. And at the time you were quite exercised to deny that there was any evidence that he had testes. Now it is shown beyond doubt that he does have testes they seem less important to you. You want to change the subject to bathrooms.

But since you wanted to know about bathrooms, I gave you my opinion. If you didn't want to hear it, why did you ask ?

It's OK, I know. You wanted to change the subject.

[Joe_dallas]

"So simple"

Quite simple indeed - So why has sarcastro displayed such difficulty on this subject?

[TwelveInchPianist]

Calling a man a woman doesn't make him one, and calling an empty nutsack a vagina doesn't make it one.

He has undescended testicles, not a vagina.

[JohnSmith97]

Where does it say that he has a vagina?

[Lee Moore]

It doesn't. But men with 5ARD can have a small pouch in the zone where a vagina would be if he was a woman, that can be mistaken for an actual vagina if you don't examine it too carefully.

In the interests of completeness, however, it IS possible for a man to have an actual vagina. A vagina is formed from two parts - the lower half, which opens to the world is formed from the urogenital sinus, whose development is affected by various sex hormones, and the upper half which connects to the cervix. The upper half is part of the Mullerian duct system, which includes the cervix, the uterus and the fallopian tubes.

Normally, the testes in a male produce - as well as testosterone - another key hormone : anti Mullerian hormone, which eliminates the Mullerian ducts which - in a female - would create the cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes - and the upper half of the vagina. In a male a different development process under the control of testosterone creates the Wolffian ducts which create the ancillary kit supporting sperm delivery - epidydimus, vas deferens, seminal vesicles and suchlike.

It is possible, though unfortunate, for a male to have Persistent Mullerian Duct Syndrome, a very rare congenital disorder which either prevents the testes from manufacturing anti-Mullerian hormone, or prevents AMH from being taken up by the relevant cells. The result is that the male can develop, under the influence of testosterone, more or less regular Wolffian ducts and penis, to go with his testes - but also the Mullerian duct system - including fallopian tubes, uterus and cervix. And the upper half of the vagina.

Because these systems get in the way of each other, the result is usually that the male is infertile. But not always. Viable sperm may be produced and the delivery system may work. But the guy can have a pretty good approach to a full internal female set of reproductive kit - except of course, no ovaries. So the internal female duct system, including the vagina, can serve no reproductive function - other than usually to disrupt the functioning of the male reproductive system.

I might add that it is also possible - though very rare - for folk with 5ARD to be fertile. On the spermy team, of course.

[Bwaaah]

I tucked my dick in tight to some skimpy panties this morning, feminized my genitalia, and now I'm feeling like a pure woman.

Don't you dare tell me what I am!

(But it won't hurt if you tell me I'm a jerk.)

[Riva]

The various trolls here inevitably try to change the issue by making it a question of how to define this unfortunate medical condition, which for the most part usually degenerates into more absurd arguments about the right to self identify. The point, however, is that it is quite unfair to allow such a person to compete against a biological woman in an Olympic boxing match.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Congratulations to our leftist friends who made violence against women an Olympic sport.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

It sounds that this is a (rare) medicl condition which gives a man some female attributes, yet he remains male.

But at least it seems that he had a good-faith basis, based on his condition, for calling himself a woman. Whether we agree with his self-characterization or not, we can see how, given his condition and the way a "backwards, traditional" society might interpret his condition, he would understandably call himself a woman.

That's not to say that everyone should automatically accept his self-designation, but we can at least see where he's coming from.

So it's not as extreme a case as some others we've heard about.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I wonder why people think that women's participation in the Olympics, nominally a forum for the world's best athletes, gets treated on par with men's participation, and not as a separate category like the Special Olympics or the Senior Olympics?

[Commenter_XY]

A layoff occurred at WaPo. So now 300 woke reporters are out of jobs. So sorry.

#Learntocode

[Mr. Bumble]

...leaving no one to report on the passing of Philadelphia Eagles and Washington REDSKINS former quarterback Sonny Jurgensen at age 91.
Ironic that the fired A-holes were among the group who led the call to do away with the REDSKINS name.
Learn to code, indeed!

[Malika la Maize]

And what evidence do you have that those 300 people who were fired “led the call” to change the name? Cite particular names please. I suspect someone indeed is an asshole here, reveling in people who he doesn’t even know (or of) losing their job based solely on not liking the general bent of a huge organization they work for.

[Frank Drackman]

I remember Sonny, wasn't he the Backup QB who somehow always seemed to be playing?
Oh, I see, he was Backup to Billy Kilmer in the early 70's when I started watching NFL Foo-bawl.

Frank

[Malika la Maize]

Jurgensen actually won the passing title one year while splitting time with Kilmer. And he was 40 and only 5’11”! Amazing.

[not guilty]

I wonder why they didn't just change their mascot to a potato, so that "redskin" would have lost its sting.

[Lee Moore]

No need. The Babylon Bee is hiring :

"If your position at The Washington Post was recently eliminated, please consider applying to write for The Babylon Bee. We are seeking applicants experienced in writing fictional content presented in the tone and style of a legitimate news organization."

[Frank Drackman]

Well that whole "Legitimate News Organization" rules the Washington (BLEEP) out.

[Riva]

Beat me to it.

[Michael P]

I think the Babylon Bee expects its writers to be funny, which puts former Washington Poo scribblers at a major disadvantage.

[David Nieporent]

I think the Babylon Bee expects its writers to be funny

I think it's abundantly clear that it does not.

[Michael P]

Your first two words are a lie, and the rest is completely wrong. You're just one of those Karens shouting "that's not funny!"

David probably believes that https://x.com/TheBabylonBee/status/2019895495070564649 is true rather than (funny) satire that hits very close to home.

[Armchair]

-

[bernard11]

A layoff occurred at WaPo. So now 300 woke reporters are out of jobs. So sorry.

"Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, And let not thy heart be glad when he stumbleth". - Proverbs 24:17

Why are you so joyous that 300 people lost their jobs?

Cheering for this is really something only an utter asshole would do.

You have no idea who these people are, or their individual political views. All you know is you hate the WaPo, presumably because you think it is "woke." So you hate these people and cheer their misfortune.

Fuck you. "Woke" or not they've done you no harm.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Huh? Woke reporters actively harm people by selling damaging viewpoints.

There's certainly nothing wrong with celebrating when Holocaust deniers or flat-earthers find it no longer feasible to publish if we believe that that will reduce the spread of harmful disinformation.

They may have a right to their opinions, but we have a right to by happy that they are no longer able to publish them.

[bernard11]

Woke reporters actively harm people by selling damaging viewpoints.

Ah. Yes. Can't have "damaging viewpoints" being spread.

Are now the arbiter of what is or is not a "damaging viewpoint?" Get over it. You're not.

If anyone is selling "damaging viewpoints" it's the Trump cultists like you. Of course they have a 1A right to spread their "viewpoints," as do those who disagree.

Plus, you have no fucking idea what these people's ideas are, but I'll bet you a substantial sum that there are not any Holocaust deniers (a right-wing phenomenon) or flat earthers among those fired.

So cram it.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"So you are now the arbiter of what is or is not a 'damaging viewpoint?'"

Well, what is or isn't a damaging viewpoint is a matter of opinion, so I'm the arbiter of what I consider to be a damaging viewpoint.

Is that OK with you?

[bernard11]

It's fine with me. But what's not fine is gloating over the misfortune of those you think, without knowing, don't share your views.

The Post eliminated its sports department. How many of the sportswriters, do you think, were promoting what you think is socialism, or any sort of "woke" ideas, rather than reporting on the doings of the Nationals and other local teams?

But you, and XY, want to gloat about their firing. Just reprehensible.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"The Post eliminated its sports department."

Well that make sense to me. Why would someone pay for a subscription to Wapo for sports when they can get better coverage from ESPN or other sources?

[Mr. Bumble]

Dow closes above 50,000 after two days of headlines about a crash. Paul Krugman cries.
Seems like only yesterday when the Dow broke 500. (actually it was 1958)

[Frank Drackman]

Imagine (it's easy if you try) what it would be without the Tariffs!

[hobie]

"Find me dirt on Joe Biden or else"
"Find me 11, 000 votes or else"
"Name the airport after me or else."

[Brett Bellmore]

Are those supposed to be quotes?

[hobie]

paraphrases. He kinda talks like a Don, don't he?

[Michael P]

Why do so many of the hallucinatory left here make things up and then put them inside quotation marks? Did they just get laid off by Jeff Bezos or something?

[Malika la Maize]

I thought it was things without quotation marks that made you cry?

[Riva]

They’re his quotes apparently. But why would we name an airport after Hobie? Which one does he want anyway? And why does he want 11,000 votes, let alone dirt on Biden?

[Frank Drackman]

You want Stupid Quotes? Here's an actual one, said on National TV.
President Joe Biden broke his silence on the slaying of Laken Riley during his State of the Union address.

"Lincoln Riley, an innocent young woman who was killed by an illegal. That's right. But how many thousands of people being killed by legals? To her parents, I say, my heart goes out to you, having lost children myself. I understand," Biden said

Gotta hand it to Parkinsonian Joe, in one utterance he gets the murdered girls name wrong, says something incredibly stupid, then says he understands because 2 of his kids died (I've heard we all do eventually).
Oh yeah, and he pissed off his Progressive Base by using the term "Ill-legal" which he apologized for a few days later.

Frank

[Dr. Ed 2]

We really should have been more assertive about demanding his impeachment. It wouldn’t have happened, but at least it would put people on record as to what constitutes impeachable conduct by a president.

The same people who defended Biden are now claiming that Trump is senile.

[Malika la Maize]

In a letter on Thursday to federal judges in the U.S. District Court in the Southern District of New York, the Justice Department said its personnel were "working around the clock to run additional searches for documents that may require additional redaction."…

The letter comes after some of Epstein's victims have expressed anger after being unintentionally identified due to redaction errors by the Department of Justice, which sought to hide their information by blacking out names, emails and faces from photos and video.

In some cases, names required by law to be hidden often appeared in whole or in part in the documents, with the first names and last names appearing in separate documents, making identification easy.

https://www.npr.org/2026/02/06/nx-s1-5702692/epstein-files-doj-trump-clinton-oversight

[Bwaaah]

On Thursday's open thread:

Roger S
The Jews are the ones posting in favor of boycotting Heritage because it does not denounce Tucker Carlson for once interviewing an America First podcaster.

Malika la Maize
Bwaari and Life of Bri Bri approved!

What was your basis for saying that. What did you mean?

[Roger S]

I do not know what that means.

[Bwaaah]

Your remark, though a bit too terse for my taste, is easily understandable (and significantly correct in my view).

Malika's remark is not, except by inferences I don't wish to make (but seem likely).

[Dr. Ed 2]

In an ideal world, which the US court system could not possibly comprehend, DOJ would produce the documents directly to the court, and ask the court to check and make sure that they didn’t miss anything in the reduction.

The court with then hire some flunkies to go through it and redact anything else that should’ve been redacted, in a different color so you know who did it, and then release them.

[hobie]

On memorial day of 1927, Fred Trump was arrested in New York for being part of a violent KKK rally there. https://www.vice.com/en/article/all-the-evidence-we-could-find-about-fred-trumps-alleged-involvement-with-the-kkk/

In the Times article about it, Fred listed his address as being 175-24 Devonshire Road, Jamaica, Queens. https://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/trumpsr1-1.jpg?w=970&quality=60&ssl=1

I looked up the address on Maps and it’s a rather quaint dwelling. https://maps.app.goo.gl/iYdyNVaJQxPTzmEy9

Of course, at the time this was reported back in 2015, Trump denied his father was a KKK guy; denied that the family ever lived at that address; and also denied he had a father.

[LexAquilia]

Why do you think your beliefs are aligned with the CCP's?

Any ideas?

[Malika la Maize]

But Mr. Trump’s own business history is filled with overseas financial deals, and some have involved the Chinese state. He spent a decade unsuccessfully pursuing projects in China, operating an office there during his first run for president and forging a partnership with a major government-controlled company.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/trump-taxes-china.html

[Riva]

Walz must be jealous. Now do the Russian collusion fraud again.

[Malika la Maize]

And, of course:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RVnoc-ISUag

[hobie]

I'll admit, FB has recently been feeding me some China commenters. They're clearly state propagandists, but sure do accurately sum up the problems with American democracy (or as you MAGA America-haters call it: Republic) and make some surprisingly appealing points about Chinese-style governance.

[LexAquilia]

You probably like the authoritarianism. It's baked into your leftwing psyche.

[hobie]

So you don't like authoritarianism, eh?

[LexAquilia]

What were the aspects of CCP governing style you found so appealing that got you out there protesting wearing their schwag?

[Frank Drackman]

I think you're taking that "Blood Libel" thing a bit too far.
Too bad Barry Hussein didn't know about it, he could have spoken at Fred's funeral.

[Riva]

This is not “evidence.” It’s a slur. Now, if you need to understand the difference, look at the evidence proving that Ilhan Omar married her brother. https://freebeacon.com/democrats/yes-ilhan-omar-married-her-brother

[Riva]

And it's not just an asinine slur. It's the same asinine "racist" insult directed daily against President Trump, this time insinuating racism by association via a defamation of Fred Trump. Kind of a mirror into the sick minds, such as they are, of the critics of President Trump.

[David Nieporent]

No evidence, of course, is presented.

[Riva]

If you’re referring to Omar’s marriage to her brother, it takes a pretty bold gaslighting a-hole to claim there’s no evidence when a link is provided that outlines just a shitload of evidence. If you’re referring to the dressed up leftist racist slur against President Trump and his family, I agree.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Hoby, do you have any idea how many people were in the Klan in the 1920s?

Something like 25% of the adult males in the State of Maine were paying members, with a lot more showing up at events. The old black-and-white movie films of the Klan matching on DC are on YouTube if you look hard enough, and I believe it was 1924 Democratic national convention that was referred to as the “Klanbake.”

I am not at all surprised that a businessman involved in real estate would be involved in the Klan — which was strongly identified with the Democratic party. After it became apparent what the Klan really was and then the 1932 election of Franklin Roosevelt, a lot of these people quietly became Republicans and never mentioned their Klan association.

Of course it might be worthy of noting that first, an arrest is not a conviction, and second, the son is not responsible for the sins of the father — that’s called “corruption of blood” and is explicitly prohibited by the constitution.

[hobie]

Let's just say that its a little more anecdotal evidence that non-racist Donald may have been schooled in the black arts of racism by Fred. Just like all you hayseeds' pappys conditioned you.

[David Nieporent]

Something like 25% of the adult males in the State of Maine were paying members,

Serial fabulist asserts completely fictional data.

[Dr. Ed 2]

&&&& YOU.

It is something I did not put in my dissertation, but it really wasn’t difficult to do. All I needed to do was obtain the number of dues paying members of the Maine Klan (who were all adult males), the number of adult males in the state at that time, and do the relevant division. This may seem complicated to you, but fairly straightforward for anyone with an IQ above 12.

[Magister]

So where do the numbers of members come from? All I could find was an article with an abstract:

n 1924, the influence of the Ku Klux Klan was at a peak in Maine, with 50,000 members, 6.2 percent of the state's population. Maine had the largest, most active KKK outside the south. In 1923, the Klan had a huge headquarters on Forest Avenue in Portland and rallied to change city government structure from having an elected mayor to hiring a city manager, in order to diffuse the power of the Democrats and its immigrant political base. This year, a charter commission will be elected to review the city charter and decide whether Portlanders will be able to choose a mayor by popular vote. With details on the not-so-proud saga of the Klan in Portland and Maine.

That appears to be less than 20% of the adult male population in the 1920 census; it is not clear that every member was male. Maine having the largest, most active KKK outside the south does not really make it representative.

[bernard11]

the son is not responsible for the sins of the father

I only wish all these people going on about "Heritage Americans" would understand that the son should not get credit for the good deeds of the father.

Too difficult for them, I guess.

[Dr. Ed 2]

No, you don’t get away with that!

[The Margrave of Azilia]

For once, I can understand why Trump would lie about this. He should have come clean, but he was at least covering for his dad. It's my understanding that not all of the President's misstatements are so benign.

[Malika la Maize]

They bought or inherited aging apartment buildings, hoping to bring home a little extra cash as property values grew and they fulfilled the dreams of their immigrant parents. For decades, the investments appeared to pay off, despite stringent rules restricting rental increases for apartment buildings constructed before 1974.

But in recent years, as maintenance and insurance bills surged, the problems added up. Rental incomes largely stagnated even as the costs to replace boilers, roofs, windows and lead-soaked walls soared, leaving property owners in the red.

Now, with the city’s political landscape shifting around them, New York landlords say they are at their breaking point as Mayor Zohran Mamdani begins to implement even more aggressive tenant-friendly policies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2026/02/03/landlords-affordable-housing-new-york/

[Armchair]

Funny how rent control ends up working...

[Malika la Maize]

Even if rent control didn’t have the inevitable “unintended consequences of hurting those it’s intended to help it’s also just really unfair to these small-time landlords.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Malika — I don't think in this context, "hurting those it’s intended to help," gets it right. The way rent control actually works is that it keeps properties it applies to so shabby that upscale would-be tenants will not consider moving in.

For those who do live in those places, shabby buildings and bad neighborhoods become protective amenities. They guard the rent-control tenants' capacity to remain in New York. Their alternative is to be priced out of New York altogether. Their revealed preference is to live with the disadvantages, to stay in New York.

Political attacks on rent control are never about helping rent control tenants. They are always about creating windfalls for landlords. By now, probably almost every rent-controlled property left was bought by a landlord when it was already rent controlled, and thus inexpensive to buy. For them, it was always a bet on getting a windfall from political opposition to rent control.

Landlords who did that always intended make road kill out of the existing tenants. Don't try to fool yourself into thinking that you help the tenants while you back landlords who have always intended to evict tenants to facilitate remodeling, or simply to force them out with rent increases.

[Ridgeway]

Need to be precise in vocabulary here. In NYC there is "rent control" which applied to buildings built before 1947 with tenants continuously in possession since 1971. That was the program that led to some absurdly low rents for magnificent apartments. However, the number of units actually covered by true rent control is very low now.

What you guys are talking about is "rent stabilization" which applies to buildings built before 1974 and "runs with the land" as it were. It generally results in below-market rents, but usually not as outlandish as under "true" rent control.

[Bwaaah]

In exchange for various tax incentives and concessions (e.g. "we'll let you build your big residential building"), a significant number of new housing units in NYC built after 1974 and continuing to the present have been registered and regulated as "rent stabilized" (i.e. subject to the rulings of the Rent Guidelines Board).

Those apartments are many of the ones that come under the moniker of new "affordable housing" in NYC.

[Bwaaah]

Holy shit. I never realized how many reactionary layers of stupidity you had to pile up in that head of yours in order to sustain your rational model. You've successfully translated the destruction of housing markets, the destruction of housing, and the enshitification of life for the poor, into a twisted battle of evil and virtue.

The only opportunity you missed is placing The Jews behind it all. Sure, that would tarnish your reputation. But it would at least help to explain why you got to all that.

You couldn't possibly grasp the steady decline in the quantity and quality of housing NYC during the rent control decades, and the steady increase in quantity and quality of NYC housing after the retraction of a substantial amount of rent control. And you can't grasp that the millions of lower income working people, most of the people in this city, have been the beneficiaries of those improvements in housing (as well as landlords).

Your intellect is a blight upon opportunity.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Bwaaah, you are entitled to be as obtuse and doctrinaire as you want to be about housing economics in America's most sought-after cities. You are not entitled to imply I have anti-Semitic motivation if I disagree with you.

[Bwaaah]

I did not imply you have anti-Semitic motivation. I said that if you added that motivation, it would provide a rational explanation to why you arrived at such a system of beliefs.

And let me be clear, Stephen...I have never seen the slightest indication you are anti-Semitic.

[David Nieporent]

As always, Lathrop fails to grasp the basics of supply and demand. But "poor quality, unmaintained buildings are good for the poor" is a new one.

[Ridgeway]

Aren't the incentives particularly perverse under rent stabilization? AIUI, landlords can get rent increases if they improve/update the apartments, so the tenants refuse to permit the improvements, so that their rent will not increase.

[Bwaaah]

DMN: But "poor quality, unmaintained buildings are good for the poor" is a new one.

That's what stopped me in my tracks here. Wow.

[TwelveInchPianist]

I know, right! We should replace all the poor quality, unmaintained buildings and replace them with high quality well maintained buildings. The poor would love to live in those!

What could go wrong?

[Sarcastr0]

I am not a down with landlords person.

And I don’t think price controls are a good idea if you have a general affordability,problem.

But the tine here is a bit reductive. Bought or inherited entire apartment buildings is…well, we aren’t talking working stiffs.

[ThePublius]

"...well, we aren’t talking working stiffs."

Indeed we are! The vast majority of apartment buildings in the Bronx, for example, were owned by Jewish merchants, as their retirement annuities. They worked hard, saved, and invested, not in 401ks, which didn't exist, but in real estate. I know, my father in law was one such 'working stiff,' never having made more than $10/hour, and ultimately owned two apartment buildings. The investment was ruined by rent control and oppressive regulations leading to fines. I can tell you horror stories. And then, in the late '60's, early '70's, the Bronx burned.

[Sarcastr0]

Owning an entire apartment is not working class.

Positing an hourly wage for a landlord is not how it works, either.

Investments going bad sucks, but when your investment is an entire apartment building, it's not quite the same as a factory worker whose pension gets fucked.

Sorry, not buying your anecdote.

[ThePublius]

"Sorry, not buying your anecdote."

That's fine, I'm not selling. It's the absolute truth. I knew candy store owners, two Jewish brothers, who made their money a penny at a time, saved, and invested in property for their retirements. They succeeded, but were crippled by rent control and over regulation.

[Sarcastr0]

So in your story real estate in NYC was a bad investment at some unspecified time in the past.

I'm no fan of rent control, but that doesn't wash.

[ThePublius]

You know, get lost. I'm not here making stuff up.

Yes, it was. That's why the Bronx, and other boroughs, were ravaged by arson in the late '60's, early '70's: so-called Jewish lightning.[1] I guess you are wholly unaware of that history. They were taking their payout from insurance companies.

Google "burning of the Bronx." You will find this, and a raft of other historical information:

"The "Burning of the Bronx" refers to an arson epidemic and socioeconomic collapse in the South Bronx during the 1970s, where 80% of the housing stock was destroyed and over 250,000 people were displaced. Driven by landlord arson for insurance, urban renewal, and "benign neglect," the area experienced up to 40 fires per night. "

I lived through this, leaving the Bronx only in 1982, and having lived one short block from a firehouse. I can still hear those sirens night and day.

[1] no, I'm not an antisemite, that's what it was generally referred to at the time.

[Michael P]

Gaslight0 is a denialist, and denialists gonna denialist. They have nothing else.

[Stephen Lathrop]

It's pretty out there to attribute to public policy potentially deadly felony crimes committed for economic gain.

[David Nieporent]

It isn't. People respond to incentives. That's the most fundamental law of economics.

[Sarcastr0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_South_Bronx_building_fires
As a result of these demographic changes, the South Bronx began to see reduced economic activity, as well as a decrease in funding for municipal services such as hospitals and public utilities. Many began to see the area as an economic drain, because despite holding jobs, many new South Bronx residents relied on some form of welfare.[10] By the 1960's, many landlords had begun to completely neglect their buildings, and the area had been substantially redlined. The completion of the Cross Bronx Expressway in 1963 caused further inconvenience for the area, in some cases displacing entire neighborhoods. Combined with Robert Moses's urban renewal projects, the value of buildings in the Bronx dropped dramatically, businesses left, income levels dropped, and crime began to rise

So yeah, there were arsons. No, they don't seem to have been cause by rent control and overregulation of landlords.

2009 financial crisis aside, owning property in the Bronx was not a thankless task.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ATNHPIUS36005A

You can also Google the amount apartments sell for in the Bronx, if you want.

[Bwaaah]

Landlords don't sustain their success without sustaining affordability for tenants. Health and safety regulations set a floor for quality of housing stock, edging out would-be slumlords. Rent control forced housing stock into slums.

Describing New York real estate as an investment is reaching to the minority perspective of life here, setting aside the bigger reality of the majority of people who seek and find affordable living symbiotically, as tenants, in that "rich person's" real estate market.

Some of the shittier, worst-maintained housing stock in New York City now is that which is owned and operated by the New York City Housing Authority. Does it comfort you to know there are no "investors" behind that? (Actually, there are, but that gets too deep into how capital flows through the vibrant U.S. economy.)

[Stephen Lathrop]

Landlords don't sustain their success without sustaining affordability for tenants.

Bwaaajh — Sure they do, if economic changes leave them lucky enough to swap poor tenants for rich ones. And to hell with the fate of the poor tenants.

Your argument, like that of ThePublius, is a moral objection to public policy which was put in place to protect people you think are getting in your way on your birthright path to riches.

[Bwaaah]

SL: "Your argument, like that of ThePublius, is a moral objection to public policy which was put in place to protect people you think are getting in your way on your birthright path to riches."

At least I didn't accuse you of being anti-Semitic. You're in Sarcastr0 territory now with your projection of vibes. I may not be an authority on how the world works, but I sure do know what's going on inside my head. And that's not it.

You seem to have problems justifying your theories without falsely casting others as demons. That's some nasty-ass scapegoating you got going on there.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Sarcastr0 — I don't think you have ThePublius quite right. It's more like his relatives expected politics and economics would remain perpetually frozen in whatever conditions prevailed when they bought their investments. ThePublius adds a moral edge to that happenstance. If everything which happened later did not conspire to optimize his relatives' investment outcomes, that was morally wrong.

[ThePublius]

And another 'fuck you' to you, Stephen, you ass. Just look at the history.

[Bwaaah]

You and your money-grubbing relatives.

[bernard11]

It's more like his relatives expected politics and economics would remain perpetually frozen in whatever conditions prevailed when they bought their investments.

That's silly, Stephen. Things don't have to be frozen. They just have to not be boiled away. Anyone with a brain knows conditions change over time. What they don't expect is for the city to adopt policies which are outright destructive.

[bernard11]

One thing the rent stabilization program does is privilege not-necessarily-poor current residents over newcomers. The incumbents stay put, even if they would like to move, for the low rent, and the new arrivals have to scurry around, pay "key money," etc, to find a place. And of course many buildings are poorly maintained, as Malika says, which hurts the overall quality of the housing stock.

Landlords do not arbitrarily raise rents to force tenants out. They raise rents because market conditions - high demand - lets them.

[Sarcastr0]

I'm not utterly against rent control, in very limited cases. Basically, if you want to have an artists colony or in your municipality, rent control is one of the levers you can use in that specific area to encourage/allow it.

But price limits writ large, for affordability? That's been demonstrated again and again to not work. You've identified a lot of the perverse incentives, as well as how the poor are one of the losers in that policy.

Anecdotally, I have had some good personal experiences with stabilization laws from renting in DC.
There is a law limiting the rent increase you can do year-by-year. I think it's at 10%.
And except for law school when I rented a basement apartment from a nice elderly couple, my rent went up by 10% just about every year no matter what part of DC I lived in - Capitol Hill, Foggy Bottom, or Glover Park.
Unlike NYC, I've not heard as much about landlords getting squeezed in DC.

Not sure what to make of that, just FWIW.

[bernard11]

Basically, if you want to have an artists colony or in your municipality, rent control is one of the levers you can use in that specific area to encourage/allow it.

Yes, but it's not a very smart one to use. If you think an artists' colony would be a good thing for the city, why should landlords in one part of the city bear the cost of helping artists afford housing?

Let the city help the artists, out of general funds. And if you can't get the money appropriated by the Council or whoever, may the citizens don't want it enough to pay for it.

[Bwaaah]

That's a sound analysis to me.

[Sarcastr0]

I said one of the levers; as the sole lever it's an immoral and unwise idea, I agree. But alongside zoning, subsidies, etc. we've seen it work.

I'm thinking SoHo. I'm not up on it in the last 15 years or so, but as I recall Landlords weren't burning their lofts down.

Or there's a place in Toledo as well IIRC.

I went to school in NYC as a kid, and I still keep in some touch.
NYC does seem to have a cohort especially hostile to landlords, as compared to other cities. And in response the landlords have gotten super ideological and paranoid.
It's not a particularly stable situation right now; it does bear watching.

[Brett Bellmore]

"If you think an artists' colony would be a good thing for the city, why should landlords in one part of the city bear the cost of helping artists afford housing?"

They're the bourgeoisie, given a certain sort of political view, harm to them doesn't count as harm, or is at least given a low weight compared to favored groups.

If you look at what Lathrop and Sarcastr0 have been saying about landlords, that's their perspective.

[Brett Bellmore]

"NYC does seem to have a cohort especially hostile to landlords, as compared to other cities. And in response the landlords have gotten super ideological and paranoid."

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[Sarcastr0]

Hey Brett, don't tell me what I think. Your telepathy sucks, especially when you got a hate-on going. Did you see my bit about subsidies?

I also think your definition of injury as 'not getting the maximum the market allows' is begging the question.

Though your clumsy invocation of dehumanization is pretty wild coming from you.

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
You're a great example of how the existence of a political opposition does not justify flights of deluded paranoid fancy.

[TwelveInchPianist]

He's not telling you what you think, he's telling other people that if they look at your comments they'll see what your perspective is.

[Bwaaah]

Re: SoHo...It doesn't make a difference that the buildings are for artists. The imposed rent freezes made them shitty properties to own. The owner's costs go up and up, including many of the city regulatory costs, while your income stays the same. It doesn't take long see you've got a depreciating investment, i.e. a money-loser...the sooner you get out, the greater your avoidance of increasing forthcoming losses.

By the 1990s, SoHo with its "artists' lofts" had turned to shit. The buildings occupied by the artists were severely neglected. I lived in one of the buildings for a few months. It was an expensive sublet for me. And get this: I was paying some "hungry artist" market-rate rent so he and his wife could hang out in Europe for a few months. The hungry artist got to realize and pocket the spread between market rate and the landlord's ever-increasingly fucked, frozen, below-market-rate position.

The city finally gave up on its imposed property-owner-subsidized commune, and the properties started to be turned over and rejuvenated by the 2000s. SoHo buildings are all cleaned up now.

The "artists" (and their families and friends) were effectively state privileged people who were somehow excused from having to get satisfactory jobs to pay their chic Manhattan neighborhood rents. How did the state privilege them? By sticking the bill to some poor schnook who owned property in a "funky part of down" (think Seattle, Portland, you know the problems). And those "artists" got to realize market value spreads by subletting "while they lived there" (wink wink). And they put nothing back into the capital upkeep of the buildings. So a lot of them effectively became single-apartment slumlords. "Artists," as you like to call them.

That's real life.

Sarc and SL seem to have no notion of a typical financial standing of a landlord, and fantasize them as rich. Most have very substantial mortgages on their properties, and depend on the slim incremental spread between their mortgage-adjusted cost basis and market rates. The ignorance of the real life mechanics of markets and human behavior is astounding.

[Bwaaah]

True stories...

An hour or two after sundown in that SoHo artist's loft, the rats and mice would come out to forage. The place, conveniently, had high stools and chairs with footrests so you could keep your feet off the floor. It wasn't like one critter per hour. It was a few of them darting across the floor at any given time, with prime time being about 2-3 hours long. You'd hear gnawing sounds in cabinets and closets and the food area. You learned to give a knock before opening any door or drawer in the place.

The building (five stories high) had an old industrial elevator. The door to the elevator shaft opened directly into the living room. We were on the fourth floor. To get the elevator, you opened the door, leaned into the shaft with a forty foot drop beneath you, and tugged on a cable to cause the elevator to start heading up. When the elevator (not a car...an open platform rising in the shaft) got close enough to our floor, you had to reach back into the shaft and counter-tug the cable to stop it. It was as dangerous as you can imagine. That's part of the sweet artist's deal with the city...lax, almost non-existent regulation of the properties. What was the city going to do? Call the landlord, who they'd already screwed with their arbitrary rent freeze, and tell them to pay more? Of course not. The City's not that unreasonable.

If Sarc and SL were in charge, they'd make sure that landlord kept that property safe. Because that would have been the moral thing to do. Alternatively, if Sarc and SL were the property owner, they'd have quickly learned not just how property management works, but the meaning of "I've been royally fucked by the City."

[Brett Bellmore]

"Owning an entire apartment is not working class."

Who the hell cares (if you think that)?

"Positing an hourly wage for a landlord is not how it works, either."

Why? Because landlords don't do anything? Or they have unlimited time on their hands?

"Investments going bad sucks, but when your investment is an entire apartment building, it's not quite the same as a factory worker whose pension gets fucked."

Right, landlords starve differently than factory workers. Everyone knows that.

Man, you and Lathrop are revealing yourselves to be such evil assholes in this thread it's something of a revelation.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"Right, landlords starve differently than factory workers. Everyone knows that."

It's because they have green blood.

[Sarcastr0]

such evil assholes
Coming in pretty fucking hot there, Brett.

I know you have Big Feelings and find bad faith everywhere disagreement with you exists, but I don't appreciate being called evil because I don't quite align with your personal bullshit.

We don't even disagree on policy here!

landlords starve differently than factory workers
I'm not sure you understand how socioeconomic class works.

[Brett Bellmore]

I rented my house out for a while when I couldn't sell it, and I'd had to move. The bastards who rented it skipped out on the rent payment a week before I was to finally close on a house, and the deal fell through. They'd been punching holes in walls, never refilled the water softener so all the sinks and the showers had insane iron buildup, kept dogs in the basement and let them crap there. I spent six months' rent (Every cent they'd paid me!) getting the place repaired enough to sell on a short sale, and my credit was ruined for years. I will NEVER get back financially to where I would have been if not for that.

But screw me, I was a landlord.

Every line I quoted expressed a shitty, sneering view of landlords.

"Investments going bad sucks, but when your investment is an entire apartment building, it's not quite the same as a factory worker whose pension gets fucked."

It is EXACTLY the same, you bastard. Your money's in a building, not a fund, but otherwise it's EXACTLY the same, except that my 401-K isn't going to end up underwater, but my house did exactly that thanks to those animals. And I didn't even have to deal with a local government imposing rent control.

How would you like it if the local government imposed pension control on you? That apartment is the owner's pension fund.

[Sarcastr0]

That sucks. I'm not going to say it doesn't. But don't pretend you're not well off even now.

You're pissed about the loss, and rightly so. But you're not out on the street.
So maybe don't pretend I want you to be.

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm still working at 67, with my joints aching, and a family history that suggests I'll be dead in a few years, because of them, instead of getting to relax for my last few years. You can stuff your "well off" where the sun don't shine, it's no different than if I were a blue collar worker who'd had half his pension stolen and had to spend his declining years assembling widgets; I'm going to have to work until I drop because they took my net worth and cut it in half when I was middle aged, and I didn't have infinite time to recover from that.

You want to pretend that it's somehow different if the value of a privately owned apartment is trashed, than if the value of a pension fund is trashed. It's not one stinking bit different, and if you want to escape asshole status, you should admit that, rather than doubling down on "screw landlords, they're flush even if you cut their rent".

[Sarcastr0]

it's no different than if I were a blue collar worker who'd had half his pension stolen and had to spend his declining years assembling widgets

You and I are both comfortable enough to spend time arguing on the Internet. Being middle class and being lower class are not the same.

Who is 'they' who took your net worth? The vandal tenants?

If this all ties back to 'taxation is theft' then you can go soak your head.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Poor people don't argue on the internet? Sarc's getting desperate.

"Who is 'they' who took your net worth? The vandal tenants?"

Look at those goalposts fly.

[CountmontyC]

Sarcastro Brett worked a good part of his life and invested his money in a way that should have provided him with a steady flow of income and was a benefit to the public ( by maintaining a home that was available for an average income person to rent). His experience ( and others like him) makes it less likely that people will invest in real estate creating either a shrinking market for rental properties or leaving that market to larger corporations who have a much better ability to screen out unwanted tenants and demand higher rents. Neither situation improves things for middle class citizens.

[bernard11]

I find Publius' story quite plausible.

I doubt the people he is talking about had a big wad of cash on hand to buy a building. They saved, probably took out loans, etc.

Investments going bad sucks, but when your investment is an entire apartment building, it's not quite the same as a factory worker whose pension gets fucked.

Why not? The worker puts part of his pay into a retirement plan, one way or the other. The prospective landlord puts part of his away to buy an apartment building. If the building turns out badly the owner is just as fucked as the guy who depended on his pension.

We're not talking about giant luxury complexes here. It's smaller buildings - I don't know - maybe 6-8 units. If you save over time, and get a decent loan, you could buy one without being a billionaire.

[Sarcastr0]

The cushion to fall back on is fluffier when you have, even diminished and with a mortgage, an apartment's value in your back pocket compared to no safety net at all. Taking the Bronx as an exemplar, it looks like we're talking on the order of 8 figures.

I'm not saying losing that value is fair or good, but in terms of fundamental human misery, I see a difference there.

I think we're on the same page policy-wise about rent control being unwise. And I think we both agree that landlords have a value add that the left's hostility ignores to it's detriment.

But the article's sympathy play didn't wash for me.

[bernard11]

But you may not have that. When rents drop and you can't meet the loan payments you may find yourself with no building at all. And pension funds don't necessarily go completely broke. They may just have to cut payments, so the worker has at least some small cushion.

[Sarcastr0]

Sure, I'm not going to be essentialist about all this; there are exceptions to any cohort. But I'd rather have apartment owner money and subsequent passive retirement than manufacturing worker money and pension.

And I'm not saying landlords don't work - they work hard for their money.
It's not like they're the ones with an annual income 10,000 times more than folks.
I'm just saying they're in a different position and the narrative where they're virtuously toiling in a thankless grind is leaning into a protestant virtue story that's old and doesn't fit much of anywhere these days, including there.

[Brett Bellmore]

"But I'd rather have apartment owner money and subsequent passive retirement than manufacturing worker money and pension."

And there you go again, completely ignoring what he just said: "When rents drop and you can't meet the loan payments you may find yourself with no building at all."

Rent control can very easily mean that you have apartment owner debt, because the net value of an apartment building can easily go negative. So no "apartment owner money", no "passive retirement".

Your pension would be hard put to go underwater. Your building absolutely can, if people with your attitude are calling the shots.

[Sarcastr0]

I don't ignore what he said. Did you miss my first paragraph?

And being forced to sell because your total rent doesn't meet your mortgage payment is pretty seismic, but you end up with your equity out unless you were overleveraged which is a risk you assumed.

My family are landlords. I can't remember a time we didn't have a property we were renting out, and for the vast majority of my life it was two. So I know of what I speak.

And you bringing up rent control makes it clear you're arguing with a version of me in your head, not based on what I've written.

My OP: "I am not a down with landlords person.

And I don’t think price controls are a good idea if you have a general affordability problem."

[Ska]

You're really overvaluing what a small multifamily building is worth, and downplaying the impact of dilution if the original purchaser had more than one child/heir/beneficiary. Outside of the handful of famous real estate families who have inherited marquee properties for a few generations, the majority of inherited real estate is going to be small multifamily properties. Also consider that a multifamily home in the Bronx is not nearly as valuable as one in Queens or Brooklyn, which are worth less than a walk-up in Manhattan. Brooklyn and Queens are going to have more of these types of properties than the other boroughs.

The two siblings who inherited a two-family house in Brooklyn are indeed working stiffs with the benefit of having a nice amount of passive income (also a misnomer, it's not nearly as passive as implied). If there are more siblings or cousins, it goes from nice amount to one-family-vacation-a-year amount. Either way, they're not quitting their jobs and living off the rental income. They're working and have some decent side-hustle money - albeit with less of the hustling.

[Sarcastr0]

I take your point - it is a good one. But the OP is about 'aging apartment buildings' specifically.

I don't think we're talking small multi-family units.

[Life of Brian]

Of course, a brief look at the article actually explains what it's talking about:

Ann Korchak, president of the Small Property Owners of New York, estimated that the city has 22,000 buildings consisting of six to 10 units per property. Thousands of them, she said, are owned by New Yorkers like Lee.

[Life of Brian]

Well put, and patiently explained. As with many "damn The Man" topics, I'm confident that anyone who honestly thinks lower-end landlords make anything resembling a killing has never actually been a landlord.

[Dr. Ed 2]

What I’ve seen them do is higher a manager and insist on a certain return or profit from the building. What this does is reduce the money available for maintenance because the manager has to get paid as well.

And where daddy had collected the rent himself, supervised the contractors doing the repairs he didn’t do himself, etc. — you now have a hired person doing all that, with the children still expecting the same returns the father got without that expense.

[David Nieporent]

"higher"

[Life of Brian]

I haven't posted the obligatory Bitter Lawyer video for a while, so it's high time to renew my thanks on behalf of folks with more important things to do with our lives for your tireless focus on the things that really matter.

[Life of Brian]

I am not a down with landlords person.

So you're a person who's down with landlords?

[Dr. Ed 2]

The cost of lead paint abatement is largely a factor of the asinine regulations.

Leaving it alone in many cases is the safest and most environmentally friendly thing to do.

[ThePublius]

Likewise with asbestos.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Sarcastr0 — See what I mean? Even asbestos control is an immoral imposition on investors entitled to rosy futures because they made investments.

As for the kids of their tenants? If they die later of mesothelioma it's their own fault.

[ThePublius]

Oh, fuck you, Stephen. It's a known fact that in most cases leaving asbestos alone, where it is, is often the safest approach to avoiding contact with airborne asbestos. I'm not advocating for anyone, I'm simply stating a fact.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Agreed.

[bernard11]

I don't know about asbestos. I don't think that's true of lead paint. I thought the evidence was strong that it can be quite harmful.

[ThePublius]

It's harmful if it chips and flakes off, and kids eat it. Lead is sweet tasting. There are cases of kids chewing it off of window sills. But leaving it alone, if possible, without the risk of kids eating it, is usually the safest approach, as removing it can produce harmful dust. And, removal is quite expensive.

[bernard11]

It's harmful if it chips and flakes off, and kids eat it.

Yes. And old paint will flake, and kids will eat it.

[Life of Brian]

The balancing act in a situation like this is whether complete removal and remediation (which by nature creates lots of opportunities for chips and dust that wouldn't otherwise have existed) less of a net hazard than encapsulation of the lead paint with a far-thicker-than-paint coating that seals the lead paint inside.

That calculus can vary depending on the type of building, occupancy, where the paint is, and the condition of the paint and substrate it's on. And full remediation is bloody expensive, so that's often a real-world consideration as well.

[hobie]

MAGA: "Bad Bunny's halftime show is unamerican. The Super Bowl should be our chance to tout to the world our American culture and language, not Spanish rap and culture."
Also MAGA: "Please pass the nachos, guac, chili con carne and margaritas please!"

[Armchair]

I don't particularly care for Bad Bunny, but whatever.

Green Day is doing the opening act. (Not the halftime show, but before the superbowl)
They honestly would've been better to do the half time show. There's a lot of history there, with Green Day having started in the SF Bay Area and the Super Bowl being in the Bay Area.

[hobie]

I wish they would do Green Day as well. Here's my very controversial opinion of Green Day: after Billy Joel, I think Green Day are the greatest songsmiths America has ever had.

[Frank Drackman]

Kid Rock's actually got some Mad Rhymes (is that how the kids say it? "Mad Rhymes")
Well I'm packin' up my game and I'ma head out west
Where real women come equipped with scripts and fake breasts
Find a nest in the Hills, chill like Flynt
Buy an old drop-top find a spot to pimp
And I'ma Kid Rock it up and down ya' block
With a bottle of scotch and watch lots a crotch
Buy a yacht with a flag sayin' "Chillin' the Most"
Then rock that bitch up and down the coast
Give a toast to the sun, drink with the stars
Get thrown in the mix and tossed outta bars
Sip the Tiajuana, I want to roam
Find Motown, tell them fools to come back home
Start an escort service for all the right reasons
And set up shop at the top of Four Seasons
Kid Rock and I'm the real McCoy
And I'm headed out west sucker because I wanna be a
"Cowboy" Baby
Man, in 2000 I could do that whole Rap from memory I heard it so much.

Frank

[hobie]

Yes, I remember buying the CD and when I cracked the crystal case open, there was Rock's middle finger on he CD flipping me off. At the time, that amused the hell out of me.

[Frank Drackman]

No Homo, but I had forgotten about that. Thanks!
Whenever I fly into LAX I have 3 tunes I have to play taxiing to the gate
1: "California Sun" (The Riviera's original)
2: "Party in the USA" (you can't hop off the plane in LAX and not play a tune about hopping off a Plane in LAX)
3: and finishing up with "Cowboy"

Frank

[ThePublius]

"after Billy Joel, I think Green Day are the greatest songsmiths America has ever had."

That's funny. You can't be serious.

[Stella Link's Ghost]

"I think Green Day are the greatest songsmiths America has ever had."

I don't know from Green Day, but for shear volume of really great stuff, it's hard to beat Paul Simon and Randy Newman. Dylan, also of course, but in amongst the good stuff, there is a lot of shit and not just Quinn the Eskimo.

[bernard11]

i>I think Green Day are the greatest songsmiths America has ever had.

I'm not familiar with Green Day, but that's quite a statement.

Broadway, jazz, R&B, country music, pop, folk, are stuffed full of great songwriters.

Is Green Day greater than Dylan, Ellington, the Gershwin brothers, and on and on.

I started to make a list, but it's impossible. Hey. Don't forget Chuck Berry.

[Armchair]

"I'm not familiar with Green Day"...

You've got a bit of a generational divide going on there.

[Sarcastr0]

Have you ever listened to Bad Bunny? Or you just know you don’t care for him?

[Frank Drackman]

There's a clip on Youtubes of Lynyrd Skynyrd playing "Sweet Home Alabama" at the Oakland Mausoleum circa 1977, Huge Confederate Flag Mural behind the band, Crowds full of guys in Motorcycle Boots and "CAT" caps, Chicks with No Bras, that's the California I remember, if Neil Young came in to play his Anti-Amurican Shit he'd have been stomped into a puddle.
Ironic that none of the original Lynyrd Skynyrd members were from Alabama.

Frank

[Michael P]

And what's up with the Van Zant brothers, anyway? Ronnie, Johnnie and Donnie? Couldn't they change more than the first sound?

[LexAquilia]

Should we treat Jews in America the same way they treat Christians in Israel?

[Frank Drackman]

That's stupid even for you, I'd like to see Bill Goldberg turn your Rectum inside out.

[LexAquilia]

https://x.com/i/status/2020009335339020560

Do you agree with these rabbis?

[Frank Drackman]

That Bill Goldberg should turn your Rectum inside out like one of those "Rally Caps" and then tear it apart? "Sointanly!" (HT C. Howard)

[WarrenOGHarding]

This RABBI - Yosef Mizrachi - apparently lives in Monsey, New York, not the Holy Land.

I'm guessing the Israelis have a more peaceful mood toward the Christians -Dumb goyim only make up 1.9% of Israel's population.

Rabbi Mizrachi has to deal with the pompous WASP schlubs and guilt-complex Catholics every day here in America. Living in Ramallah is a cakewalk by comparison!

[LexAquilia]

There's a whole thread of similar sentiments. And tons of videos of Jews spitting on the goy cattle.

I love how The Tribe is just doubling down on the goy hate.

[WarrenOGHarding]

A thread of similar sentiments from who? Eminent Israeli/Jewish thinkers or the common Semite?

Put up a thread of thinker from group X shitting on group Y and the internet detritus of group X will come out of the woodwork that is social media.

For every Jew condescending to a goy on social media you have a black condescending to crackahs, a white condescending to blacks etc.

The internet is a masturbatorium of hate - what a surprise.

What's the point to be made here?

[LexAquilia]

We can look around and see all the evidence of the Jew hatred for the goyim.

They're doing to Whites and Christians what their Talmud commands them. We can see their actions, and now also the hate behind those actions.

[not guilty]

LexAquilia, I have no idea whether you consider yourself Christian or not.

If so, do you have any consternation about worshipping an observant Jew? All of Jesus's original apostles were Jews. The gospel of Christianity was offered first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, according to the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:16 (NIV). Christianity was originally regarded as a sect of Judaism.

Jesus was no bigot.

[Frank Drackman]

He did cry once though.

[not guilty]

FWIW: some words of wisdom by Kinky Friedman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNM4KRbtevg

Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt
Was a-guzzlin' Lone Star beer
Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear
"They oughta send you back to Russia, boy
Or New York City, One
You just want to doodle a Christian girl
And you killed God's only son."

I said, "Has it occurred to you, you nerd
That that's not very nice
We Jews believe it was Santa Claus that killed Jesus Christ"
"You know, you don't look Jewish," he said
"Near as I could figger
I had you stamped for a slightly anemic
Well-dressed country nigger."

No, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
They don't turn the other cheek the way they done before
He started in to shoutin' and a-spittin' on the floor
"Lord, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore."

He says, "I ain't a racist but
Aristotle Onassis is one Greek we don't need
And them niggers, Jews and Sigma Nus
All they ever do is breed
And wops 'n micks 'n slopes 'n spics 'n spooks
Are on my list
And there's one little heeb from the heart of Texas
Is there anyone I missed?"

Well, I hits him with everything I had
Right square between the eyes
I says, "I'm gonna gitcha, you son of a bitch ya
For spoutin' that pack of lies
If there's one thing I can't abide
It's an ethnocentric racist;
Now you take back that thing you said
'Bbout Aristotle Onassis."

No, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
We don't turn the other cheek the way we done before
You could hear that honky holler as he hit that hardwood floor
"Lord, they sho' ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore"
All right!

No, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
We don't turn the other cheek the way they done before
You hear that honky holler as he hit that hardwood floor
Lord, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore

Everybody!
They ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
They ain't makin' carpenters who know what nails are for
Well, the whole damn place was singin'
As I strolled right out the door
"Lord, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore!"
No, we ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore
We don't turn the other cheek the way they done before
Well, the whole damn place was singin'
As I strolled right out the door
"Lord, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore!"

[Brett Bellmore]

It would certainly beat treating them the way Christians AND Jews are treated anywhere else in the Middle East. Anybody who complains about Israel and can't be bothered to spare a word for their neighbors is an idiot.

But, no, I say we treat them like everybody gets treated in the US. Since we're in the US, and they're part of "everybody".

[hobie]

I think Peter Griffin better described the MAGA America better, Brett:

https://youtu.be/fxHWtw_GZIk?si=ilN-mvUOSyj0lXbS

[Dr. Ed 2]

Lex, seriously, I’ve never heard ANYTHING about the Israeli government being a hostile to Christians, or Israel not being a good place to go if you are a Christian.

Please explain your claim to the contrary.

And as to treating Jews in America in respectful manner, the way that Christians are in Israel , well isn’t that what we do?

[ducksalad]

It's more like describing a church bombing in Alabama as an attack on African Methodist Episcopals. It was really an attack on Blacks, and it just so happens that most AME churchgoers are Blacks.

Lex is probably referring to stories like this one:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-police-probing-alleged-settler-arson-and-vandalism-in-west-bank-christian-village/

and that is one example out of many, it is not an isolated event. But it would be more accurate to say they were attacked for being Arabs, it just happens that most Christians in Israel are also Arabs. That's where Lex is being misleading again.

It was an ethnic pogrom rather than a religious pogrom. Perhaps that makes Israel fans feel better.

[LexAquilia]

Oh, it was ethnic genocide, not religious genocide. Totes cool.

[not guilty]

Lex, seriously, I’ve never heard ANYTHING about the Israeli government being a hostile to Christians, or Israel not being a good place to go if you are a Christian.

Please explain your claim to the contrary.

Dr. Ed 2, asking LexAquilia to support an ipse dixit assertion is a fools errand.

If ignorance indeed were bliss, he would likely be the happiest man on the planet.

[not guilty]

"Should we treat Jews in America the same way they treat Christians in Israel?"

How are Christians in Israel treated badly? Please show your work.

[Frank Drackman]

Well Jesus was nailed to a Cross.

[Life of Brian]

Speaking of nailing it....

[Commenter_XY]

Christians are treated far better in Israel than any other ME country. Christians participate in Israeli municipal government, and the Knesset; they can vote (men and women).

In a country of 12MM people, you are bound to find a few scoundrels. Their conduct is indefensible.

[Malika la Maize]

Speaking to reporters on Air Force One on Friday, Mr. Trump said he only saw the beginning of the video. “I just looked at the first part, it was about voter fraud in some place, Georgia,” Mr. Trump said. “I didn’t see the whole thing.”

He then tried to deflect blame, suggesting he had given the link to someone else to post. “I gave it to the people, generally they’d look at the whole thing but I guess somebody didn’t,” he told reporters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/06/us/politics/trump-obamas-video-apes-truth-social.html

[hobie]

Well, shucks.

[Frank Drackman]

Pay Walled, funny how if it's so Vile and Disgusting the Vile and Disgusting Press isn't playing it 24-7.
and the New York Times? I wouldn't believe them if they reported something obvious, like Shit smells bad or Joe Biden's Demented.

[David Nieporent]

"The buck stops with 'somebody.'"

[Zarniwoop]

Underbussing a minion. Quelle suprise!

[Frank Drackman]

I was going to say the NFL should pay Bad Bunny in Pesos (I know Puerto Rico uses the Amurican Dollar, but he's going to sing in Spanish, we'll pay him in Spanish) but then I found out the NFL doesn't even pay the Half Time Performers.
Doing hard work for no pay??? I thought Slavery was outlawed 160 years ago?
I know, "Free Publicity" not like Drake (is that how you say it? "Drake") or Lady Gaga need more publicity.

Frank

[Malika la Maize]

I’m betting the sponsor pays, you know the “Super Bowl Half-Time Show brought to you by…” (it’s Apple this year).

I couldn’t stand five minutes listening to Bad Bunny but I get the idea: the average age of NFL fans is like 60 and the NFL wants them youngin’s.

[Life of Brian]

Wow, Qualika says the quiet part out loud: this IS just a Bud Light play. I'd best stock up on popcorn.

[Dr. Ed 2]

A song in Spanish?
I don’t think Joe Sixpack’s gonna appreciate that.

[Frank Drackman]

Maybe if the Artist was Jose Feliciano, you know, you got no complaints.

[Dr. Ed 2]

But this is some dude a dress….

[hobie]

Yesterday:

Obama on FB: "To all the athletes representing Team USA: I'm so proud of you. Your talent and perseverance have brought you to this moment, and Michelle and I will be joining Americans from across the country cheering you on."

Trump at Prayer Breakfast: "And we're also very shortly going to have the Olympics and the World Cup. You know I got them. I was the one that got the Olympics, and I was the one that got and I was so upset because I got them. I tried to move them up but I couldn't. And uh my first term I was getting them and Barrack Hussein Obama would refuse to call the Olympics."

[Frank Drackman]

It's the Internets, so you can be like Belichick and cheat, but can you name a single member of the US team?
Besides Lindsay Vaughn.

Frank

[Malika la Maize]

He’s a crass megalomaniac.

[Frank Drackman]

Hobie? I agree, but he's OUR Crass Megalomaniac.

[Malika la Maize]

Haven’t heard him working to have so much named after himself, unlike Dear Leader.

[jay.tee]

He’s a crass megalomaniac.

On that we totally agree. Most (all?) politicians have some level of megalomania in them. But Trump is pretty unprecedented.

[Michael P]

Yeah, we didn't have another president so megalomaniacal since Biden, or at least Obama, especially if you think about Trump's first term.

[WarrenOGHarding]

Glad you posted this comparison Hobie, but an accurate Trump quote requires randomly capitalizing different words for emphasis.

[Frank Drackman]

I know I'm an Old Jew (Mrs. Drackman actually had a "Grandpa Irving") but is it asking too much for the NFL to have an "Uplifting" Halftime Show, Gonna go Ari Gold here with some concepts,
1: Remember Rebecca Black? Did that "It's Friday" Song in 2011? She does it again, but now it's "It's Sunday" get it?
2: Miley Cyrus does "Party in the USA" (2009 Hollywood)
3: and the Grand Finale, Madonna, Christina Aguilera, and Britney recreate that MTV VMA kiss from 2003.
OK, maybe younger versions of them.
4: Fly overs by Navy/Marine Corpse Fighters, and the USAF Jets that make their flying possible, a KC-135
5: 82d Airborne parachutes in to secure the Perimeter from any Dirty Hippies/Alex Preti wantabes

Quick Revision: Holly Johnson (Birthday is Monday) begins the whole show with "Relax"
Frank

[hobie]

There's some good advice for you in Frankie Goes to Hollywood's 'Relax', Frankie.

[WarrenOGHarding]

I've always(past 4-5 years or so) thought Kanye West would be a great show.

It'd open with POWER - https://youtu.be/k8JflBNovLE?si=r4JC8juDeHRVf1Kp

[Frank Drackman]

That would be great.

[Malika la Maize]

Opening arguments begin next week in a lawsuit brought by New Mexico against the owner of Facebook and Instagram, claiming the social media giant is putting children and teenagers at risk of sexual abuse and human trafficking.

Meta argues that it moderates teen accounts, has safety measures, and that the case is based on what the company calls sensationalist arguments and cherry-picked documents.

New Mexico Attorney General Raúl Torrez said his state’s investigation resulted in the arrest of three individuals who thought they were meeting up with an underage child.
Meta already knew about these individuals’ inappropriate interactions with minors, he said.

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2026/02/05/meta-child-exploitation-lawsuit?utm_source=npr.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=national_highlight&utm_content=homepage

[hobie]

NPR did a thing on this yesterday. If New Mexico (and also the other states and individuals suing separately elsewhere) get's its way, it would fundamentally change the Internet. And, if the damages are sustained, could theoretically bankrupt Facebook and Google

[Bwaaah]

I like how like ten years ago the EU forced EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD to answer a stupid question about cookies, that almost NOBODY CARES ABOUT, EVERY TIME THEY GO TO A NEW WEBSITE. And then, a year or two ago, after watching it in action, they updated their law to make it MORE COMPLICATED to accomplish what almost nobody cared about.

And that's one more reason we have so much more privacy now than we did before. BRILLIANT!

[Frank Drackman]

I’ve been saying I want Cookies for years and they never send any.

[Bwaaah]

5 PM, and already, you were getting tired?

[hobie]

Now that the Orange Caligula has been officially identified as a racist, as well as a rapist; one can easily see that some divine coincidence is happening with the third letter of RA_IST. So to check it out (and to also improve my vocabulary), I decided to look up all the words that have that core to see if any others apply to Trump:

raCist
raDist - a radio operator
raGist - [from the Urban Dictionary] Someone who won’t party/rage with someone based on their race/religion
raPist
raSist - [check this one out!] Slovenian for racist [Hah?! Of all the countries!]
raTist - [from Urban Dictionary] Someone who rates people while on a date
raVist - [from Urban Dictionary] A rapist who who goes to raves just to sodomize girls and/or guys passed out on drugs
raWist - eats only raw foods

[Frank Drackman]

Hate to be a Debbie Downer here, but the chances that Nancy Guthrie is alive are about the same as Common-Law Harris winning the DemoKKKrat nomination in 2028.
OK, maybe not that bad.
Can't wait to see the Marxist Stream Media drop the Story like they did with the "Second Gentleman" (Doug Emhoff, and he has to have a brother named "Jack") slapping his Girlfriend at Cannes when it turns out the Kidnappers are a Venezuelan Drug Cartel

[not guilty]

I have long wondered why Mr. and Mrs. Abramoff named their son Jack.

[John F. Carr]

A bill filed in the Senate would require prescription drugs to be labeled with their country of origin. The FDA has been accused of lax oversight of foreign factories. Better to have cheap drugs than good drugs.

Whether patients can demand drugs made in a safe and effective country is unclear. You get what your pharmacy wants to give you and your pharmacy gives you what your insurance company says you can have.

Bill sponsor Rick Scott knows a thing or two about shady practices in health care.

https://www.aging.senate.gov/press-releases/chairman-scott-ranking-member-gillibrand-introduce-clear-labels-act-to-protect-american-patients-through-drug-origin-transparency-and-stronger-supply-chain-oversight

[Dr. Ed 2]

I would like to see all food, products, and everything that is a food, contact item, all pharmaceuticals, and all supposedly sterile medical products labeled as to country of origin.

I will pay more, gladly pay more, not to consume things made in China! And I will not buy vegetables grown in Mexico!

[John F. Carr]

Yesterday I posted about litigation in a criminal case related to immigration enforcement continuing even after the charges had been dropped.

In Boston the litigation was over a wallet and key that ICE may have lost or stolen, which was subject to a motion to return seized property. The court wants to know what happened to the wallet.

In Chicago, the litigation is over disclosure of evidence that makes DHS look bad.. Marimar Martinez was accused with assault with a deadly weapon on a government official. She was shot but survived. Discovery was provided under a protective order. What has been released so far reminds me of a police department that kept score of how many dogs officers had shot. Not illegal on its own but you don't want that in front of a jury. Charges were dropped.

Martinez' lawyer argued that she was smeared by DHS so she should be able to clear her name by smearing DHS. They want the protective order lifted. The judge has agreed in principle and has asked the parties to agree on redactions of personal information before public release. The public will learn what inappropriate text messages were sent. The public will not learn who sent most of them.

My thought: It is possible that both sides are bad. Being shot by a trigger-happy thug doesn't make her a good person. She was accused of being a "domestic terrorist", which is a legally correct label for somebody who rams her car into a DHS vehicle to protest immigration enforcement. The fact of the assault and her motive for the alleged assault have not been litigated. I don't care if she's good or bad. I want to find out what kind of people the government is issuing guns to.

As in Boston, because the defendant is poor the public defender is handling litigation over collateral matters after winning the case. A private lawyer would be asking many thousands of dollars for the same work. Some media companies are asking to intervene. They may be paying market rate for legal assistance. It's a good enough story to spend real money on.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71561860/united-states-v-martinez/
https://chicago.suntimes.com/2026/02/06/federal-judge-will-let-marimar-martinez-release-text-messages-sent-by-border-patrol-agent-who-shot-her

[Michael P]

I don't care if she's good or bad. I want to find out what kind of people the government is issuing guns to.

One should not be so one-sided: ultimately the government issues those guns because of the other set of people, and the need to issue guns will not go away so long as their actions persist.

[John F. Carr]

The government needs some armed agents. Does it need this one?

For a lot of law enforcement and immigration work, we should move to a model where the point people are unarmed. If they face armed or violent resistance they back off and call in the excess force team.

[Frank Drackman]

Maybe they could wear Pink Dresses so everyone would know they were unarmed? (HT J. Lambert)

[Michael P]

That's going to end up like Elián González an awful lot of the time because the incentives are clear. Then the government ends up sending out the excess force team all the time, and then all the field agents get guns.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

And now we know Republicans were fighting to keep Elian Gonzalez with the American sex traffickers so that Hastert and Mark Foley could take him to Epstein Island and tag team him. Thankfully Reno was able to send him back to his father after his “mother of the year” almost drowned him…she’s up there with Vance’s violent drug addicted skank of a mother! 😉

[David Nieporent]

Loki and I have been discussing the Martinez case here for a while. That's one of the ones where ICE rammed someone and then pretended it was the other way around and shot her in revenge. Then they destroyed evidence in an attempt to cover it up, which led to charges against her being dropped.

[Magister]

OK, but I'm still curious about when "domestic terrorist" is a legally correct label. Legally in terms of what some law considers "domestic terrorism", or legally in the sense that there's no law against labeling someone a domestic terrorist?

[David Nieporent]

As a legal term, "domestic terrorism" is defined but "domestic terrorist" is not. It's 18 U.S.C. § 2331(5). Note that "domestic terrorism" is defined as an act of terrorism that occurs primarily in the U.S.; it has nothing to do with who commits it.

But "domestic terrorism" is not an independent crime; it's defined (in short) as an act dangerous to human life, that violates federal or state criminal law, that is intended to intimidate or coerce the public or the government.

So calling someone a "domestic terrorist" is a political label, not a legal one.

[Magister]

Thank you. So, attacks by ICE, and particularly the recent shootings, would be domestic terrorism if they violated a state or federal law. I see why they don't want investigations.

[Dr. Ed 2]

What David doesn’t realize is it stunts like this are standard police tactics, and worse, they are the tactics of child protective social workers and teachers.

I’m reminded of a point a lawyer I know made 30 years ago about the tactics that Ken Starr was using to investigate Clinton. His point was that he had hoped that the inquisition had gone on longer for the public to see the tactics routinely used by prosecutors, and hopefully developing a revulsion towards them in general.

Police ramming a vehicle is almost routine, what would be interesting to see is what is taught in ICE SKOOL…

[John F. Carr]

Judge Vargas (S.D.N.Y) ordered the federal government to resume payments to build a $16 billion tunnel under the Hudson River. As judges have often found in cases over Trump administration actions, lack of money is a harm that can only be remedied with an injunction.

Plaintiffs allege the grant was terminated as political retribution. Maybe it was terminated for having too much DEI and not enough DPW. Maybe the federal DOT is being bureaucratic instead of malicious.

New Jersey v. DOT, https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/72228444/state-of-new-jersey-v-united-states-department-of-transportation/
https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-orders-trump-administration-to-resume-funding-hudson-tunnel-project/

[John F. Carr]

We should abolish preliminary injunctions in this situation. If the right to money is indisputably clear, get a writ of mandamus. Otherwise, allow some form of consequential damages or interest when the government's refusal to pay was unreasonable. Under such circumstances the Equal Access to Justice Act already allows attorney's fees.

[not guilty]

The District Court addressed that point at page 9 of the order:

The Court is also persuaded that Plaintiffs would suffer irreparable harm in the absence of an injunction. Monetary loss can constitute irreparable harm when a party would have no means to recoup such losses through a subsequent action for monetary damages, see, e.g., United States v. New York, 708 F.2d 92, 93 (2d Cir. 1983), and Plaintiffs have adequately demonstrated that they would imminently suffer such loss if GDC is forced to shut down its operations.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Perhaps the state of New Jersey should be required to post a bond in the amount of the money they demanding from the federal government, so that when (not if) the fed show inappropriate spending, the federal taxpayers can be reimbursed.

[The WV Family Court Files]

Still thinking about how brazenly corrupt the WV Family Court is -- and why reporters are uninterested in this issue:
https://open.substack.com/pub/thefamilycourtfiles/p/part-7-fabrication-by-withholding?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

[JoeFromtheBronx]

I am reading Storm at the Capitol: An Oral History of January 6th by Mary Clare Jalonick. She covers Congress for AP. She was at the scene while things were ongoing.

It provides a narrative account with comments from members of Congress of both parties, Mike Pence, staff, reporters, police officers, and some (to use her terms) "protestors and rioters."

The narrative basically provides an hour-by-hour account from 9AM (10 AM, is skipped) with the 2:00 p.m. hour being the longest section. It is a striking way to experience things.

You are in the heat of the action. For instance, at one point, invaders are outside in the hall of the Senate building, trying to get into different rooms. One locked room had Senator Murray and her husband on the floor, hoping the door would hold.

One inspector of the Metropolitan Police Department notes:

I remember walking through blood on the platform only to find out after the fact that one of our officers, whose hand got pinched in the bike rack [had] lost a piece of his hand.

A member of the U.S. Capitol Police notes:

Weapons [used against the police] included hammers, rebars [metal bars], knives, batons, and police shields taken by force, as well as bear spray [meant to stop a 500-1000lb animal] and pepper spray. Some rioters wore tactical gear, including bulletproof vests and masks

[One such person specifically mentioned in the book had a concealed firearm on his person.]

Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-OK), after Babbitt was shot:

He [U.S. Capitol Police officer] was the last person in the world that ever wanted to use force like that. He wasn't wanting to do that. I know for a fact, because after it happened, he came over. And he was physically and emotionally distraught. And I actually gave him a hug. And I said, "Sir, you did what you had to do."

VP Mike Pence comes off well. A staffer quoted 2 Timothy to express his actions on that day: " I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

The final page of my copy of the book is written by "Raising Readers Books Build Bright Futures," encouraging childhood reading. Suggestions include: "Encourage your child to read aloud to a pet or stuffed animal."

[Michael P]

Both the book and your comment are rambling, disconnected and ultimately pointless screeds.

[SRG2]

Translation: "I can't argue the facts but I'd better say something against this"

[MoreCurious]

Do you know how many people believe you've read the book? Zero, that's how many. That's what happens when nothing you write has any relationship to truth, intelligence, and reality.

[Brett Bellmore]

"[One such person specifically mentioned in the book had a concealed firearm on his person.]"

That would be one of the guys who didn't actually enter the building?

[Magister]

Since the insurrectionists who entered the building were mostly arrested later, we don't know how many carried firearms into the building. Part of the reason may be DC's gun laws, which led to some arrests before the insurrection and encouraged some to stockpile their weapons outside DC with the intent of bringing them later.

As I understand it, the charges for being on the capitol grounds and in the building were essentially the same.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Yes and due process be damned.

Under what used to be American law, do process include a notification that one is committing a crime, and that would mean a posted sign saying no trespassing, and I don’t ever remember seeing those along the capital Hill property line.

[John F. Carr]

There are a few different laws in play here.

Some of the January 6 defendants were charged with crimes that required proof they knew they were entering a forbidden zone. Some of those were acquitted because they might have been waved in by police instead of jumping a barricade. But as a general rule, a barricade can serve as well as a no trespassing sign. A trespassing conviction in some states can be sustained on proof that the defendant should have seen something that he did not in fact see. You have to look around for (for example) purple paint marks on nearby trees instead of keeping your eyes fixed on the ground ahead.

I believe several cases reached the D.C. Circuit court of appeals which ruled proof of knowledge was sufficient.

Carrying a gun into the Capitol is a crime that does not require proof of knowledge that guns are forbidden. You're just supposed to know about the law, because we are all expected to know all the laws. Same with demonstrating inside the Capitol. It's illegal whether or not you know about the rule.

Some were charged with obstruction. This is the charge that the Supreme Court later ruled did not apply to typical defendants. Under the prosecutors' original theory, knowledge that the Capitol was off limits need not be proved. You could possibly commit the crime by mailing fake electoral votes from a thousand miles away.

[Brett Bellmore]

That's as may be, but the difference is pretty substantial so far as I'm concerned, because the Capitol grounds were actually open to the public, and gun control laws are unconstitutional.

[Sarcastr0]

the Capitol grounds were actually open to the public
Weird all those police were there that day, then.

gun control laws are unconstitutional
Except for that one time in Minnesota. That nurse was no angel!

[Magister]

Being different for Brett matters only in a court of Brettlaw.

Without DC gun laws, groups like the Oath Keepers would have had guns with them instead of miles away in another state; some who planned to participate were arrested for gun possession before they could join the insurrection. Plenty of time to have challenged the laws or gotten DC permits between Heller and 2021.

[John F. Carr]

"One locked room had Senator Murray and her husband on the floor, hoping the door would hold."

I read that one group got close to the Secret Service detail guarding Pence. That would have ended poorly.

[bernard11]

Weapons [used against the police] included hammers, rebars [metal bars], knives, batons, and police shields taken by force, as well as bear spray [meant to stop a 500-1000lb animal] and pepper spray.

What? And here people have been telling me the insurrectionists were unarmed.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

When discussing the crowd coming together to hear Trump give his speech, the author notes:

US Park Police officers reported seeing "numerous individuals" with firearms, pepper spray, pipes, and other possible weapons. Others were wearing body armor and riot gear, carrying radio equipment, and wearing "military-grade" backpacks. Among those who were screened, the Secret Service had confiscated hundreds of prohibited items -- knives, pepper spray, brass knuckles, gas masks, Tasers, body armor, and batons.

[citing inspector general report]

One news article later noted:

A CBS News review found a series of cases in which rioters allegedly carried or brandished guns. Some of the court filings submitted by the U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C., include evidence of guns allegedly in rioters' possession.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-claimed-there-was-not-one-gun-jan-6-rioters-capitol-riot/

See also:

https://www.wgbh.org/news/national/2021-03-19/yes-capitol-rioters-were-armed-here-are-the-weapons-prosecutors-say-they-used

("Most of the people who stormed the Capitol were not arrested during the riot itself.")

Again, there was a brutal amount of violence inflicted on the police that threatened their life and limb. This includes direct physical violence, including partial choking, seizing badges and other equipment, and so on.

[John F. Carr]

"guns allegedly in rioters' possession"

At least one of the people in the Capitol was surprised to learn that a stun gun is about as bad as a regular gun, as far as the criminal law is concerned. Some of them left their guns behind thinking they wouldn't be in so much trouble. In its attempt to make everything a serious crime Congress lessened the incentive to come less heavily armed.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

It's not "as bad," but if the attackers used stun guns, it still would have been bad on top of everything else.

It does not appear stupid to ban stun guns around the Capitol, including while watching the chief executive give a speech.

(To be clear, "guns" or "firearms" here are not just "stun guns.")

[Dr. Ed 2]

March 6 is going to be DDDifferenr…

[JoeFromtheBronx]

One interesting part of the Indian Constitution is a section that provides "fundamental duties" for citizens.

https://www.constitutionofindia.net/articles/article-51a-fundamental-duties/

One such duty is “to develop the scientific temper, humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform.”

Among the other duties are "to protect and improve the natural environment including forests, lakes, rivers and wild life, and to have compassion for living creatures."

Nehru in his book Discovery of India argued:

The scientific approach, the adventurous and yet critical temper of science, the search for truth and new knowledge, the refusal to accept anything without testing and trial, the capacity to change previous conclusions in the face of new evidence, the reliance on observed fact and not on pre-conceived theory, the hard discipline of the mind, all this is necessary, not merely for the application of science but for life itself and the solution of its many problems.

The duties are not self-enforcing but are guides for citizens and the parliament when crafting policy.

https://theleaflet.in/civil-justice/what-does-the-indian-constitution-truly-ask-of-its-citizens-when-it-speaks-of-scientific-temper

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Is this one of those non-justiciable provisions? If translated correctly into English, it seems on the surface like a good goal to proclaim, though I would like to see how much influence it's actually had. Of course, plenty of people from India seem to have adopted the scientific attitude. Is it because of the constitution, or would they have been scientific-minded anyway? I suspect they'd have done it anyway.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Orangeburg Massacre in 1968 - the shooters were prosecuted, but were acquitted (presumably due to bad evidence, but there is also the possibility of jury bias - I'm not sure).

The police killed three Black students during a riot - though it was a fairly mild riot by 1968 standards. Also, at least one kid who was killed got shot in the back, so maybe the danger wasn't as great as portrayed, and one kid who was shot but survived may have been scapegoated, since the state ended up pardoning him after he was convicted in the riot, and a later SC government apologized for the shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_Massacre

It's not as famous as Kent State - we can speculate why it's less well known, though Black people would no doubt have an explanation: The people shot in Orangeburg were Black, while the people shot at Kent State were White.

Moral: "We must love one another or die."

Full disclosure: The poet who said that later changed it to "love one another *and* die."

https://reasonandmeaning.com/2014/05/22/w-h-audens-we-must-love-one-another-or-die/

[The Margrave of Azilia]

(update: I don't think the person who went to prison was a student, he was a young activist.)

[Mr. Bumble]

"...he was a young activist.)"
You mean someone without gainful employment who spends their time demonstrating against whatever the current cause celebre is?

[The Margrave of Azilia]

The relevant question is whether he committed any crimes, and South Carolina may have changed its mind on that issue, as I discussed.

[Commenter_XY]

The 5th circuit decided a case today that will hopefully quicken the pace of deportations. 🙂

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/25/25-20496-CV0.pdf

[Dr. Ed 2]

YES!!!!

[Life of Brian]

Saw that. It's a big 'un.

Really thought we had discussed the underlying 1225/1226 dispute around here, but not immediately seeing it.

[John F. Carr]

The legal dispute is whether an "applicant for admission" is the same as a person "seeking admission". The conservatives said yes, lock 'em up. The Biden appointee on the panel said Congress could not have intended that result because it suddenly disallowed release on bond millions of people present illegally in 1996. The majority did not find the result sufficiently absurd to change their mind.

The opinion cites Jennings v. Rodriguez, which is a fractured decision where Thomas and Gorsuch thought the courts didn't even have jurisdiction over demands for release on bond. It mentions the distinction between different classes of aliens.

[mulched]

I'm looking forward to Prof. Somin's article on that one. How quickly do you think it will be out?

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm guessing by Monday.

[Sarcastr0]

Amazing to me how much it's just sports to the MAGA crowd. Their side gets a win, and the first thing is they want some misery from their Internet enemy who doesn't even know they exist.

When you're purely self-oriented, and you're not in the group being gone after, I suppose it do be like that.

[Life of Brian]

Oh, Ilya knows I exist. And news like this just makes it that much less likely he'll have to write another super-defensive response about why he's not letting illegals "foot traffic" their way into even the side yard of his 7-figure spread.

[Frank Drackman]

How about a moment of prayer for the safe release of Nancy Guthrie, easy to say ransom shouldn't be paid, but what would you do to get your mom back? And what punishment would be appropriate for the Abductors?
I'm thinking "Lingchi", the Chinks may be an Evil Despotic Civilization but man, have they come up with some imaginative ways to kill peoples. Of course as a Kid I loved playing that "Imagine the most painful thing you can" game ("Sliding down a bannister that's razor sharp, slicing your Scrotum as you slide, and landing in a Vat of rubbing alcohol!)

Frank

[JoeFromtheBronx]

Steve Vladeck on the 5CA opinion (written by a hardline conservative Reagan appointee and joined by a strongly Trumpy Trump appointee):

https://substack.com/inbox/post/187178288

[mulched]

I'm not seeking admission to your living room. I'm just going to sit on your couch for as long as I want. No, you can't throw me out without a full court hearing.

[John F. Carr]

This is a question of statutory interpretation. You're alluding to trespass law, which is worded differently from immigration law. Trespass law ordinarily does not distinguish between entering without permission and refusing to leave when asked. At the fringes there are some differences, notably in the scope of the castle doctrine.

[John F. Carr]

He links to his earlier post which is also worth a read.

https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/195-the-immigration-detention-flood

Democrats should have put mandatory detention on their list of demands for DHS funding support. It's more important than masks and use of force policies because so many people are affected. And it's under the control of Congress. Republicans could also demand that the Trump interpretation be written into law, in return for giving Democrats something off their current 10 point list.

[Life of Brian]

I have to say it's really beyond shocking that Vladeck stuck to the position he'd already articulated on the subject rather than folding to the 5th Circuit.

I'm sure he'll have equally insulting things to say if SCOTUS follows suit.

[JoeFromtheBronx]

It is blatantly normal for people, including law professors, to continue to disagree strongly with certain court opinions, especially when it is not even the highest court.

This comment is silly.

[John F. Carr]

Italy will not join Trump's Board of Peace, citing his veto power as incompatible with its constitution. Article 11 (official English translation) states

Italy agrees, on conditions of equality with other States, to the limitations of sovereignty that may be necessary to a world order ensuring peace and justice among the Nations. Italy promotes and encourages international organisations furthering such ends.

If Trump is more equal, Italy is not equal.

A lawyer would argue that Trump is not a state, but I see where Italy is coming from.

Combining Italy with Trump's wish to be king of the world reminded me of Robin Williams' credit in Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. He was credited as Ray D. Tutto, an anglicized version of the Italian phrase for "king of everything."