Open Thread

What’s on your mind?

Comments

[not guilty]

The Department of Justice is reportedly investigating whether some protesters against the activities of ICE agents in Minnesota have violated the FACE Act in regard to disrupting a worship service at Cities Church in St. Paul, where one of the pastors, David Easterwood, is the acting field director of the St. Paul ICE field office. https://abcnews.go.com/US/doj-investigating-after-protesters-disrupt-service-minneapolis-church/story?id=129349242

Unlike some of the other half cocked investigations that the DOJ is reportedly conducting, this one may be adequately predicated. Disruption of a worship service can be a federal crime, per 18 U.S.C. § 248(a)(2), providing that whoever:

by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person lawfully exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship

commits a misdemeanor for the first offense and a felony for a second or subsequent offense. The statute also provides for civil remedies including injunctive relief, compensatory and punitive damages and attorney fees.

The same statute prohibits similar conduct regarding access to abortion facilities.

It seems to me that the key as to any federal prosecution will be whether the anti-ICE protestors employed "force or threat of force or by physical obstruction". The disruption seems to have been mostly verbal, even if the volume was greater than necessary. https://www.facebook.com/BlackLivesMatterMN/posts/pfbid021kQKX1cesM1ZC3kJoYZaTuVJz8YRacHo9Vuf4SHSfC5Hych1naJ6yTC7SXheHuhEl

Whether it was criminal or not, (and refusing to leave when asked likely did violate state criminal trespass laws, https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.605), it was still a dick move, and likely counterproductive.

[Dr. Ed 2]

It seems to me that the president of prosecutions for those blocking access to abortion clinics would be relevant here.

And those who have been convicted for that, in many cases, did far less than the schmucks did.

I still say they’re lucky they didn’t do this to my church because, well….

[not guilty]

Who is "the president of prosecutions for those blocking access to abortion clinics"?

And who elected him or her president?

The same statute that prohibits and punishes interference by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction at abortion facilities also prohibits and punishes interference by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction at houses of worship.

The use of "force or threat of force or by physical obstruction" is an essential element of either subsection which must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Frank Drackman]

You seem to have forgotten, some Animals are more equal than other Animals.

[Commenter_XY]

NG, suppose the protestors are charged and found guilty. What is the penalty for the first offense (misdemeanor)?

[not guilty]

Assuming that you are referring to the federal FACE Act, subsection (b)(1) provides that "Whoever violates this section shall . . . in the case of a first offense, be fined in accordance with this title, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both . . . except that for an offense involving exclusively a nonviolent physical obstruction, the fine shall be not more than $10,000 and the length of imprisonment shall be not more than six months, or both, for the first offense".

The Minnesota criminal trespass statute, subject to exceptions not relevant here, authorizes a sentence of not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

[The Margrave of Azilia]

"Whether it was criminal or not"

Yeah, that's a real head-scratcher.

Now imagine they'd invaded an abortion clinic during business hours.

Though as a matter of fact, I can't think of any legitimate way the Constitution, fairly construed, allows Congress to pass a FACE Act to supplement existing state laws against trespassing, disorderly conduct, etc.

[Brett Bellmore]

It makes a bit more sense if you consider that it was enacted prior to Dobbs, when the Supreme court was treating abortion as a constitutional right. So the law could be construed to be 14th amendment enabling legislation.

Of course, religious liberty is STILL a constitutional right.

But, yeah, I tend to agree.

[Dr. Ed 2]

How many days does it take for the US attorney’s office to convene grand jury and do all the nice things that has to do and not to indict someone?

I asked because unless Bondi indicts those responsible for violating the FACE at in the Baptist Church last Sunday, we’re gonna have a new attorney general. Can the feds arrest people prior to grand jury indictment the way some state district attorneys

The other question I have is would be enhanced charges for those who organize this whole stunt? Conspiracy charges, possibly even some version of RICO if the protests were paid?

And asked the specification of charges, all one has to do is to look at the people who are prosecuted for violating the FACE act around abortion clinics, and what conduct got them convicted. Screaming, disrupting, terrifying blocking intimidating, unauthorized presence trespass all that fun stuff comes to immediate mind.

People want to talk about Nazis — well it was the Nazis who went into other people’s churches, i.e. synagogues….

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-minnesota-ice-church-protest-st-paul-minneapolis-11384427

[not guilty]

United States Attorneys do not convene federal grand juries. Federal district judges do so.

Provided they have probable cause, federal officials can arrest people prior to grand jury indictment, but that starts the speedy trial clock running. It ordinarily requires issuance of an arrest warrant by a United States Magistrate. The Fourth Amendment requires a judicial determination of probable cause as a prerequisite to extended restraint of liberty following arrest. Gerstein v. Pugh, 420 U.S. 103, 114 (1975).

A violation of 18 U.S.C. § 248 is not "racketeering activity" as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 1961(1).

Any more questions?

[Frank Drackman]

Does being a Prick make you feel good about yourself?

[Dr. Ed 2]

A hypothetical: George Soros is found to have funded Sunday’s church disruption, which is also found to be a violation of the FACE act.

Could he be personally liable for damages under the FACE act?

[not guilty]

A hypothetical: George Soros is found to have funded Sunday’s church disruption, which is also found to be a violation of the FACE act.

Could he be personally liable for damages under the FACE act?

I have quoted the relevant subsection of 18 U.S.C. § 248 upthread. Pull your head out from up your ass and parse it.

When you do, you will find that funding a protest is not a prohibited act. Moreover, subsection (d)(2) provides that "Nothing in this section shall be construed . . . to create new remedies for interference with activities protected by the free speech or free exercise clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution, occurring outside a facility, regardless of the point of view expressed, or to limit any existing legal remedies for such interference".

Paying someone else to engage in political activity is itself First Amendment protected activity subject to strict scrutiny analysis, see, Meyer v. Grant, 486 U.S. 414 (1988), and such payment is highly unlikely to have occurred inside the Cities Church facility in St. Paul.

[Frank Drackman]

This is getting good! Nicki Minaj-a-trois called Don Lemon "Don Coc* Suckin' Lemon" and he said she was an "Undocumented Citizen"
actually, he's a big Pussy, so he said
"From what I know, you are an Undocumented Citizen, so you should be deported under Donald Trump's rule"
Mee-Yow!!!
I think Don Lemon's Balls are wherever that Malaysian Airliner is.

Frank

[Commenter_XY]

Public Service Announcement: We are now entering tax season, and the array of new deductions and credits is prodigious. For those of us that do our own taxes via TurboTax (~35% of us), and use the standard deduction (90% of us), prepare for an extra hour or so....no big deal.

My first run through took about two hours. Some of that time was getting documentation. Unless you owe money, or have a special tax situation; file early (first week of Feb).

There are a lot of additional TT questions, so have your documents ready.

[AmosArch]

Progressives have gone through the trouble of years of marginalizing all the other holidays and associated people so that MLK is now the de facto most un-controversially venerated figure in America. But then they just go and forget about him to hero worship some white lady attempted manslaughterer who tragically martyred herself for the sake of fraudsters even they admit exist? Can't win with these guys can you?

[Sarcastr0]

Amos with his finger of the pulse of liberalism once again.

[Michael Molovinsky]

As an independent conservative blogging daily for 18years, my audience was mostly local Republicans, a minority in my neck of Pennsytucky. However, on Trump's coattails, they took the house seat by 1%. I'm telling my readers that unless that Representative (Mackenzie) cuts bait with Trump, he'll lose the midterms. The Republican base, so far, cannot bring themselves to disavow their ever more crazy President.
https://molovinskyonallentown.blogspot.com

[Sarcastr0]

The baby steps to distance from Trump have potential; depends on how the midterms go and how nuclear Trump goes on conservative incumbants that do that.

As a liberal, I'm interested in the realignment once the cult around Trump is done.
The GOP coalition won't stay together. And the Dems are already realigning, even just via a ton of their older members retiring.

And the lay of the land is different - norms broken, institutions wrecked, trust ended...that also has an effect on people.

[Michael Molovinsky]

I have a hard time understanding the cult. For the MAGA red hats, it's like a sport team they support. They didn't pay attention before Trump and they won't after him. BUT, for the Republican partisans, it's being in the driver's seat, even if the driver is ever more reckless and unbalanced. Unless they speak up, they're going to crash and burn for several terms.

[Sarcastr0]

I mean, people outside a cult always find it really hard to understand.

The analogy to sports seems a good one. Sports is a show. MAGA seems to be in it for the show, seeing politics as a game, and effects of the chaos and destruction as not real but performance.

People on this blog have been asked why they support Trump. Revenge shows up a lot - we were oppressed under Biden now it's your turn. No one was oppressed under Biden, but they *felt* oppressed so real oppression seems called for.

Illegal immigration is another. The cruelty is the point, since the trauma will keep illegals living in fear and miserable even after Trump leaves. Amazing people just type out this kind of stuff.

Getting communists out of public schools and universities also shows up, which seems idiosyncratic to people who have had personal issues with schools and family courts, etc.

[Michael P]

"cuts bait with Trump"? You sound Russian.

[Michael P]

Another day, another assault by the leftist cult against people they mistakenly believe are affiliated with ICE.

https://x.com/AlphaNews/status/2012610307663802819